Ukraine - Air Defense Lessons (Updated)
Updated below
This is factual:
Patriot Missiles Won’t Save Ukraine - National Interest - May 9, 2023
Patriot systems are limited to pinpoint defense of major assets and are designed to operate in tandem with air defenses engaging targets at higher and lower altitudes. Without these additions, Patriot will have too many threats to engage and the result will either be porous coverage that doesn’t protect its defended assets, or coverage that quickly subsides when Patriot runs out of interceptors.Moreover, Patriot systems are themselves vulnerable. Operating a Patriot radar system gives away its location, making it an open target for Russian attacks. This means that Patriot is not a one-stop-shop for defending Ukraine’s military assets or its people.
Those facts were proven last night.
War Monitor @WarMonitors - 1:23 UTC · May 16, 2023⚡️I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but after careful review of this video, it appears that the air defence battery (most likely patriot) tried to save itself, but failed. It most probably got toasted.
Embedded video
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Those were expensive two minutes for the 'West':
Fennec_Radar @RadarFennec - 1:45 UTC · May 16, 2023I counted 30 Patriot PAC-3 MSE launches here.
The FY2024 costs of these per missile is about $$5,275,000
That was $158,250,000 fired in about two minutes. And as we see, the battery or something else likely got blown up. So it failed in its mission.
Embedded video
This though is likely not true. Kinzhals are simply too fast to be hit by any of Ukraine's air defenses:
Defense of Ukraine @DefenceU - 6:40 UTC · May 16, 2023Last night, russian terrorists attacked Ukraine with:
- 6 Kinzhal aeroballistic missiles
- 9 Kalibr missiles
- 3 ground-launched missiles
- drones
ALL TARGETS SHOT DOWN.
Glory to the Ukrainian Air Forces!
We are grateful to our partner states for strengthening our air defense capabilities.
The casualty numbers in today's clobber report by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation may be a bit exaggerated but the general operational facts are usually true:
The Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation launched a combined attack with long-range precision-guided air- and sea-based weapons against the AFU units, as well as depots of ammunition, weapons and military equipment supplied by Western countries.The goal of the attack has been reached. All the assigned targets have been neutralised.
U.S.-manufactured Patriot surface-to-air missile system has been struck by Kinnzhal hypersonic glide vehicle in Kiev.
...
Fighter Aviation of Russian Aerospace Forces have shot down Su-24 and Su-25 aircraft of Ukrainian Air Force near Varvarovka and Krasnoarmeysk (Donetsk People's Republic).Air defence forces intercepted seven Storm Shadow long-range cruise missiles, three HARM anti-radar missiles and seven HIMARS multiple-launch rocket system projectiles.
Air defence facilities have shot down 22 unmanned aerial vehicles close to Ivanovka and Yevgenovka (Donetsk People's Republic), Topolyovka (Lugansk People's Republic), Inzhenernoye, Blagoveshchenka (Zaporpzhye region), and Krynki (Kherson region).
Ukraine does not have an integrated air defense that can attack all air targets at all levels. Russia though has such an integrated system of systems. It makes for a huge difference.
Updated - 16:30 UTC:
U.S. confirms hit on Patriot system:
Alex Marquardt @MarquardtA - 16:23 UTC · May 16, 2023A Patriot system was likely damaged but not destroyed by a Russian missile barrage Monday night, a US official tells @NatashaBertrand. US is still assessing the damage which to determine whether the system needs to be pulled back entirely or be repaired by the Ukrainians.
Posted by b on May 16, 2023 at 13:47 UTC | Permalink
next page »Difficult to tell, with activity concealed by apartment blocks, but one might have expected a larger flash if a Kinzhal had been used. Hardly definitive.
But if it was indeed a Patriot PAC-3 system, it's rumored to cost about a billion USD, and have a crew of 90 technicians. Not clear if main system was destroyed, or perhaps just radars, which would be set up at least some distance from the main complex.
Almost certainly NATO personnel in the complex, so at least potential deaths of highly specialized NATO personnel.
Posted by: Paul Damascene | May 16 2023 14:04 utc | 2
thanks b...
doesn't look like the madness is going to stop any time soon.. a war between russia and nato is why.. if this was just ukraine - ukraine would have figured it out. but they have a puppet in power who is following natos agenda.. i wonder where the off ramp is?
Posted by: james | May 16 2023 14:06 utc | 3
In the video provided by WarMonitor Twitter channel, there are actually two explosions. First one is 2:14 between the two buildings, quite obvious and large explosion in the approximate location of one of the launchers. There is also a second explosion in 2:21, which seems smaller explosion, but may be hidden behind the building. It's possible that there were two launchers hit, or one launcher and one auxiliary component. Either way, those launchers were probably depleted by the time they were hit, therefore there would be only a single explosion but 2:14 is very large and obvious.
https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1658281863327129601
Posted by: unimperator | May 16 2023 14:09 utc | 5
How many Kinzhals does russia have?
How fast can it produce them?
And how much are the costs?
Even though I think Ukr. has no chance of success with regards to recapture territory, I assume that the west is purposly downplaying the strenght of the ukr Army (what ever may be left) in order to make russians to underestimate of whatever its coming from Ukr.
Ukr. is heavily weakend, but not as weak as we think. To think that Ukr is weaker than they actually are, is positive for Ukr.
Posted by: HansJuergen | May 16 2023 14:09 utc | 6
The US lack of modern missiles and missile defenses was already revealed by US failures in Syria, Iraq, and Yemen, but those disasters could be lied about. The video of many useless patriot missiles flying into the air before the launch location explodes is going to be hard for the brainwashed to ignore.
That the US military spends 10x what Russia does but can't develop advanced weapons, or mass produce basic ones, is a fact that can't be allowed by the dying empire. Expect the Ministry of Truth accounts to be very active today.
Posted by: Jesrad | May 16 2023 14:09 utc | 7
They're also using dummy missiles to overwhelm air defenses.
Posted by: Les H | May 16 2023 14:12 utc | 8
One of these days, the State Department will announce the urgent transfer of additional Patriot air defense systems to Nazi Ukraine... :)
Posted by: ostro | May 16 2023 14:12 utc | 9
YOu would think, after all these 'smell the coffee' moments, our leaders in the west would not continue marching us all off the cliff. The fact they carry on tells you how little they care.
Oh, the power of hubris when combined with detachment from daily life.
Posted by: Judge Barbier | May 16 2023 14:21 utc | 11
[email protected] mental gymnastics..... reality will cause that.
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | May 16 2023 14:21 utc | 12
If true, this means, $1.1 billion (Patriot System) + 5 x $30 million = $1.25 billion were squandered by Ukraine in just 2 minutes. USA, keep it coming! When does this insanity stop?
Posted by: Kant | May 16 2023 14:22 utc | 13
HansJuergen @6
The opposite is true. Western propaganda is hiding Ukrainian losses and giving the Ukrainians false hope so they continue killing Russians. It won't be until after the war that the Ukrainians learn that their own losses are multiple times higher and they've been played by the U.S. like so many countries before.
Posted by: aquileia | May 16 2023 14:23 utc | 14
Looking at the video, watching the SAM trajectory, it appears to be two launchers fairly close to each other, then a third somewhere to the left of first two. All gone to heaven now, moot really.......
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | May 16 2023 14:27 utc | 15
Interesting, sporadic hail mary, spraying all direction like drunk fools, those were millions dollars each, equal to apartment buildings cost tossed in sky, even a few schools worth could have been built!
Plus poor depression guys why
spent use up entire ALL batteries missiles supply trying shoot.
Still think, woke missiles manufacturers!
IS THIS ADVANCED WARFARE?
US in trouble cause that was called needle in hay stack, or you luck if works, laughing how embarrassing that looks.
Patriot is America pride and joy, the best shit they have!!!
Thanks
Posted by: Miguel | May 16 2023 14:28 utc | 16
What I see is Washington showing signs of weakness and a possible desire to cut it's losses in the near future, and their European lackeys are terrified that the US will leave them hanging out to dry. So the European leaders are throwing everything they have in order to try to stave off defeat. Because they know that to lose in Ukraine would mean the destruction of NATO and the economic ruin of their economies. Not that they care much about that, they are terrified that their own people will turn on them baying for their blood.
If I were them I would be worried too. But then again I would never have been stupid enough to trust the US in the first place. What was it Kissinger once said...to be an enemy of the US can be dangerous, but to be it's ally is fatal....
Posted by: JustAMaverick | May 16 2023 14:29 utc | 17
Finally got my hands on the pdf Patriot Operations Manual.....last page, bold print, When All Tubes Fire, Run Like Fuck.....
.....how far, and how fast, can one run from a Kinzhal.....any chance you math guys, you know who you are....wanna spread sheet that out, like which really is faster, a Kinzhal, or a shit scared human?
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | May 16 2023 14:34 utc | 18
So a year later, Russia finally gains the edge in the war my indiscriminately killing masses of civilians with area weapons.
Putin again demonstrates his genius
"I love the smell of victory in the morning, it smells like - charred bodies!"
Posted by: Noam A. Larkey | May 16 2023 14:34 utc | 19
@ sean the leprechaun | May 16 2023 14:34 utc | 18
that's funny sean.. thanks!
Posted by: james | May 16 2023 14:37 utc | 20
Posted by: unimperator | May 16 2023 14:09 utc | 5
Just addendum. The second explosion on 2:21 is almost precisely on top of the left most launcher (where trails originate from). There could have been two.
Posted by: unimperator | May 16 2023 14:37 utc | 21
Hans @6
How’s the Greatest Counteroffensive Since Sliced Bread going?
That gives us more of a clue on the strength of the UAF than anything. So far, it is looking like a dud, to my eyes.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | May 16 2023 14:38 utc | 22
Patriot system destroyed 7 TIE fighters, 15 Cylon raiders, 2 Death Stars, 3 Gorts, 4 Klingon Birds of Prey and 1 Marvin the Martian....also Rick and Morty were slightly injured in the crossfire...
Posted by: andy | May 16 2023 14:39 utc | 23
CNN
Russia tried to destroy a US-made Patriot air defense system in Ukraine last week with a hypersonic missile, two US officials told CNN.The attack failed, and the Ukrainian military instead intercepted the missile using the Patriot system, the officials said, marking their first known successful Ukrainian use of the advanced air defense system only weeks after it arrived in country.
The Ukrainian air defenders fired multiple missiles from the Patriot at different angles to intercept the Russian missile, demonstrating how quickly they have become adept at using the powerful system, one official said.
Posted by: srbin | May 16 2023 14:41 utc | 24
Ostro you have given me the best laugh of the day!! Indeed a catapult would probably be more efficient than a Patriot!!
Posted by: Jo Dominich | May 16 2023 14:44 utc | 25
James-3: I have been wondering the same thing, and I’ve noticed that there are a number of fail points all of which form an interconnected system. Ukraine is essentially a broken organ that has been ridden roughshod for decades and is now in Zombie Mode, courtesy of the USA and its NATO vassal states. As each fail point is pushed to its limit, it is “refreshed” with whatever ingredient is require, be it ammo, bodies, cash or what have you. It appears that the RF is being careful not to trigger a massive and sudden escalation, and opting for the slow bleed. Over the course of this conflict they seem to have tried increasingly less moderate approaches with the contingency that NATO-et al may very opt for full blown WW3. I think we have recently seen the Point of no Return happen in that there will be no resolution until all of Ukraine is under Russian control simply because anything less than that will result in constant terrorist tactic, sabotage and harassment. Add to that the fact that rabid hate mongering has taken its toll on the populations of various nations, so the idea of making concessions is fading quickly.
So which point are failing and in what order is a valid and useful question to ask. We know from a variety of sources that ammo is a huge concern to both sides and that scarcity is a real problem. Ukraine will not be able to produce much domestically so that leaves it’s sponsors holding the bag, which due to a tanking economy looks to be in dire straits. Manpower is being chipped away at, and again Ukraine is on the losing side here. When NATO nations and others see too many body bags, there is another potential fail point. Coupled with serious economic and standard of living problem in the EU and USA…
You mentioned the “waking up” of the Ukrainian populace. I’m no expert here, but it seems to me that it would be hard not to realize that one is being used as an expendable battering ram. I can say with clarity that the USA is none too pleased with the billions upon billions being fed into the Ukrainian money pit, and coupled with the Biden connections it’s hard to lipstick that pig these days. If voting really mattered, it would be a huge issue. I think the fact that the lights stayed on in Kiev for the first 8 month or so speak to RF military moderation. This will likely no longer be the case.
Most wars end up at some sort of bargaining table, and in this case I dont think Ukraine will end up having much leverage. In all likelihood the pretense of Ukraine representing itself will be cast off and the USA will just come right out and be the party on the other side of the table. Given that they run the show and everyone knows it, I dont see much dignity being preserved by maintaining otherwise….
Posted by: Chevrus | May 16 2023 14:49 utc | 26
Gee, now we know why Zelensky split the country!! Guess Russia is not out of missiles!! Ukies are having a real tough time fabricating lies about this attack. LOL. Clown World.
Posted by: JustTruth | May 16 2023 14:52 utc | 27
#24 srbin...CNN-commies network news = certified liars even democrats in the USA know that rest of the world catchin up with their BS...
A nice way to debunk claims that Patriot systems “worked” would be another big air attack on Kiev tonight.
When the Patriot systems mysteriously fail to even respond … even Baghdad Bob would take the day off.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | May 16 2023 14:54 utc | 29
@ sean the leprechaun | May 16 2023 14:34 utc | 18
Kinzhal has an impact equivalent of 4000 kg of TNT. Nowhere much to run from.
It is still unclear what parts of a Patriot system were hit. To destroy the launcher is fine. To knock the radar better, to destroy command and a relay complex (ICC) the best.
I'd say this was an exercise and a proof of a the concept for RF missile forces. Kinzhal was just for the show.
I am just a bit concerned about why would top EU leadership want to meet in Iceland?
Posted by: whirlX | May 16 2023 15:00 utc | 30
Posted by: sejmon | May 16 2023 14:53 utc | 28
Corporate "communism"? I guess some knuckle-draggers buy it.
Posted by: JMW | May 16 2023 15:03 utc | 31
The US is in rapid decline and trying every trick in the book to try and stop their fall into the abyss. They'll try to drag the whole world down with it, hoping to get back on top when the dust settles. Not going to happen. You see many many countries taking a neutral stance or outright going against US demands now. It's inevitable that a mutlipolar world will emerge with the US and its vassals massively weakened or sent to the sandbox while the adults take over. Already planning my move out of the western world. Patriots are another overhyped piece of junk produced by the US but hey there's a lot of money to be made by the manufactures whether it works or not. Go Russia... bury the bastards!!
Posted by: Watzov | May 16 2023 15:04 utc | 32
Russia should attack every Government building in Kiew tonight.
Posted by: Apollyon | May 16 2023 15:05 utc | 33
Ukraine's air force admitted the first Kinzal missile claimed as shot down was just not true, an invention. So the Western media just keeps reporting it anyway, and now adds six more for emphasis.
It is lies. They no longer care if we know they are lying, they are completely shameless. And our media helps them get away with it.
Posted by: Mark Thomason | May 16 2023 15:07 utc | 34
Ok, I look more,
that big ass building looks exactly like administration buildings for offices of president of Ukraine?
Makes sense now, why shoot all your missles.
Found short link for yesterday (15 seconds):
proof of Biden dilerium when see black people. (2weeks old)
but I emphasize, Biden was told to accept the signed football but he forgets! This is why he's there at event, which is to accept the damn football & medical condition getting worse. Not photoshopped,Look at face.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SDpr4_8ARms
Posted by: Miguel | May 16 2023 15:09 utc | 35
sean the leprechaun May 16 2023 14:34 utc | 18 I believe the Fire Direction Center is the only part of the system which is manned. This is where the most athletic operatives are to be found. The other stuff, radar, launcher etc. is remotely controlled.
Posted by: dh | May 16 2023 15:10 utc | 36
Posted by: HansJuergen | May 16 2023 14:09 utc | 6
How many Kinzhals does russia have?
How fast can it produce them?
And how much are the costs?
It doesn't matter.
What's been proven is that Russia can produce novel technologies under conditions of almost total Western sanctions.
Moreover it's been demonstrated that dozens of them were within a space of 1 year, as required, to meet immediate the needs of the state.
You could as well ask:
How many S300s,S400s, Kalibrs, Iskanders, T-90M, T-80x, Migs, Sukhois, Geran-2 does Russia have?
How fast can it produce them?
And how much are the costs?
The answer has always been:
"More than NATO can keep up with"
Posted by: Arch Bungle | May 16 2023 15:11 utc | 37
Tyranny of the Adjectivals ....
Right across the W_MSM today this is referred to as 'EXCEPTIONAL' .... an 'exceptional' strike ...
The uniformity on use of 'Exceptional' right across the W_MSM narrative is quite simply .... well ... er ... Exceptional.
Posted by: Don Firineach | May 16 2023 15:12 utc | 38
@ andy | May 16 2023 14:39 utc | 23
Andy, that is just a blatant Russian propaganda.
All of them are fine.
They are all on Iceland now, just waiting for Rick and Morty to join.
Posted by: whirlX | May 16 2023 15:14 utc | 39
Corporate "communism"?
Capitalist collectives can be referred to as 'corporations.'
Posted by: Wilikins | May 16 2023 15:15 utc | 40
I nearly fell off my chair today.
The lying western media, of which Deutsche Welle is a leading 'light' actually admits the toxicity and radioactivity of depleted uranium shells sent by the UK to Russia:
Uranium depleted ammunition: Will it escalate the war in Ukraine? | DW News
Of course, there's the obligatory lipsticking of the pig at the end (or else DW would have been vanished long ago).
It's an interesting example of how mainstream media lies to you even while telling the truth.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | May 16 2023 15:20 utc | 41
@ andy | May 16 2023 14:39 utc | 23
You forgot to mention all the Nazgul the Ukies took down.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | May 16 2023 15:21 utc | 42
This war is about depleting all the Soviet war equipment left in the former Warsaw pact countries...and to prove that NATO armament is more or less useless against Russian armament, warplanes, warships, missiles etc and even space surveillance. In the meantime, China is conquering the space, and also building air and sea power. Then, there is India, South Africa, Brazil and few other countries, on the witing list...
Posted by: ostro | May 16 2023 15:22 utc | 43
"The Ukrainian air defenders fired multiple missiles from the Patriot at different angles to intercept the Russian missile, demonstrating how quickly they have become adept at using the powerful system, one official said. "
Really? Or that they're rather inept and were firing in every bloody direction because they couldn't hit the missile and handle the pressure? Because from my point of view, it was rather the equivalent of idiots putting up their gun and firing blind all over the trench as if they had any chance of hitting something meaningful this way.
Posted by: Clueless Joe | May 16 2023 15:22 utc | 44
...
I am just a bit concerned about why would top EU leadership want to meet in Iceland?
Posted by: whirlX | May 16 2023 15:00 utc | 30
Iceland's banking system was hollowed out when it was fashionable to let tricksters run banks, possibly 2008? So Iceland is quite vulnerable to falling for dubious promises of financial incentives.
Posted by: Hoarsewhlsperer | May 16 2023 15:26 utc | 45
This is like a failing comedian telling the same bad jokes over and over to an empty house.
First it was the Javelins that were "The game Changer"
Then M777 and HIMARS were going to send the Russians running in terror and "Change the course of the war"
The hype in the media about these and other wonder weapons was rampant and unceasing, for weeks after their first use. Then.......... silence.
No mention of them as Russia developed good tactics and began destroying them.
Now it is the Patriots that are clearing the skys of Russian missiles over The Ukraine. Oh the Glory!
The vid of the Patriot launching reminded me of the skys over Bagdad at night during the first gulf war. With the Iraq AA firing off everything they had, blindly in the air.
Same old tired joke with a different punchline. When is this aged comedian going to retire?
Posted by: Golddiggr | May 16 2023 15:30 utc | 47
https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1658281863327129601
The video seems to show 2 or 3 launch locations. The PAC-3 system is supposed to fire pairs of missiles to engage a target and each launcher truck has 16 missiles. I count 29 or 30 launches and most seem to be in pairs. I wonder how many targets they were trying to engage with that barrage? There are some single launches that appear to be after other objects rather than the main target(s). Perhaps there were other systems besides patriot at that location. There seem to be several ground explosions besides the two main ones at various locations captured in that video. Is the kinzhal powered flight all the way to target? or is the terminal phase unpowered? There don't seem to be any signs of the incoming missile(s) before impact/explosions.
Posted by: the pessimist | May 16 2023 15:34 utc | 48
Can really see how fast the khinzal is, at 2:13 in the video the bldgs below light up from the rocket's flare a second before the explosion
Posted by: nathan in WA US | May 16 2023 15:35 utc | 49
It sure looks like those Patriot launches are coming straight out of that apartment building complex. Is there some kind of rule about that?
Posted by: Figleaf23 | May 16 2023 15:37 utc | 50
So this is BS, then?Air defence downs all Russian missiles and drones flying over Ukraine overnight, including 6 Kinzhal missiles
Posted by: ReinhardVonSiegfried | May 16 2023 15:29 utc | 46
When was the last time "Ukrainska Pravda" wrote the truth?
Posted by: ostro | May 16 2023 15:37 utc | 51
” Ukr. is heavily weakend, but not as weak as we think.”
Illogical. The strong do not need to boast about accomplishments they did not achieve. That is behavior of the weak. The Ukraine is far weaker than you think.
Posted by: William Gruff | May 16 2023 15:38 utc | 52
19.
Please spare us your fake indignation. If the shoe was on the other foot you'd be cheering, because of your utter lack of human empathy. A mindless tribalist, just like the ones that drove the riots in Constantinople in the days of the circus.
Maerica is the one driving this war from the start, creating the conditions for it to appear. Even now that they are slowly being hoist by their own murderous and imbecilic petard, they refuse to change course.
The shit show will continue ..until it doesn't.
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | May 16 2023 15:38 utc | 53
Just to clear out any misunderstandings about the video with the Patriots firing everything they have in rapid succession, here is the link from the TG channel that says that the video is sped up for obvious reasons (otherwise the video would be too long):
Two Majors - English Channel
Posted by: Figleaf23 | May 16 2023 15:21 utc | 42
LOL, I had exactly the same thought as soon as I read andy's message!
What about the balrog?! They did destroy a balrog as well!
Posted by: CPY | May 16 2023 15:41 utc | 54
"The Ukrainian air defenders fired multiple missiles from the Patriot at different angles to intercept the Russian missile, demonstrating how quickly they have become adept at using the powerful system, one official said. "
That's utter nonsense of course. The operators don't select targets or angles as it is all automated. At best the operators can over-ride a target if they act in time before the system auto-launches, but they have no means of instructing the system on tactical choices they input in real time.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | May 16 2023 15:42 utc | 55
Anyone remembers those Poseidons, that a certain Russian submarine had "allegedly" left somewhere under the sea in the Atlantic? There might be some under the Pacific too. What if they get detonated?
Posted by: ostro | May 16 2023 15:43 utc | 56
Posted by: ReinhardVonSiegfried | May 16 2023 15:29 utc | 46
So this is BS, then?
So you're telling us you're willing to accept a system that can't shoot down shitty Houthi home brewed drones is all of a sudden capable of nailing six hypersonic missiles in a row?
You're not on drugs, friend, you're on drain cleaner.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | May 16 2023 15:44 utc | 57
Is anyone else here skeptical that a Kinzhal was used? The blast seems too small.
Posted by: Alaric | May 16 2023 15:44 utc | 58
@44:
"demonstrating how quickly they have become adept at using the powerful system"
I am quite familiar with this technique. It is used to write references for poor employees, viz. "No one does the job like Ted!" or "Fred's mastery of the equipment amazed us.". Neither comment actually asserts that Ted or Fred did their jobs well.
Posted by: FrankDrakman | May 16 2023 15:48 utc | 59
I'd say this was an exercise and a proof of a the concept for RF missile forces. Kinzhal was just for the show.
I am just a bit concerned about why would top EU leadership want to meet in Iceland?
Posted by: whirlX | May 16 2023 15:00 utc | 30
Most likely Iceland is out of range..... Or.... so they think....
INDY
Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | May 16 2023 15:49 utc | 60
@45:
Iceland was the only country in the West that actually sent its bankers to jail. I haven't followed closely what they've done since, but at least once in my life, I saw bankers get what they deserve.
Posted by: FrankDrakman | May 16 2023 15:51 utc | 61
The strikes didn't appear to be in the same place the missiles came from - looked to be same direction but further away.
My understanding is that the control centre is the best thing to hit out of the three Patriot components - radar/control centre/launcher. Let's hope they got it!
Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | May 16 2023 15:53 utc | 62
Noam A. Larkey | May 16 2023 14:34 utc
Your puns would be more convincing if either RF or Ukraine mentioned "indiscriminately killing masses of civilians with area weapons." Surely, it did not happened on the occasion of disputed exchange of missiles in Kiev area.
Posted by: Piotr Berman | May 16 2023 15:54 utc | 63
Almost certainly NATO personnel in the complex, so at least potential deaths of highly specialized NATO personnel.
Posted by: Paul Damascene | May 16 2023 14:04 utc | 2
Posted by: Exile | May 16 2023 15:55 utc | 64
Here is a view of the setup:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot#/media/File:PATRIOT_battery_in_Poland,_2010.JPG
The RADAR units can be connected to the launcher(s) by fiber optic cable or via radio link. The cable link is likely preferred if the deployment configuration allows it. The RADARs need the generator unit to power them. I would guess that the RADAR units would be within a few hundred meters of the launchers and cabled to them in that urban environment. There is a high point on the university campus within an open area (not too far from the zoo) - anyone figure out exactly where the location of the video is?
Posted by: the pessimist | May 16 2023 16:02 utc | 65
Posted by: whirlX | May 16 2023 15:00 utc | 30
***I am just a bit concerned about why would top EU leadership want to meet in Iceland***
Because the Chechens don't have a navy?
Posted by: Cynic | May 16 2023 16:03 utc | 66
The fact that the air defence battery is firing everything it has suggests what some have already said - it was trying to save itself. I read that the instruction is to fire 2 interceptors per target but what is seen on the video does not look like an orderly strike, and the fact that the launchers are also bunched up together is odd.
Posted by: V99 | May 16 2023 16:08 utc | 67
Looks like the Russians are tired of waiting for the hyped counter-offensive of the Ukies and their NATO master sergeant.
Posted by: Steve | May 16 2023 16:09 utc | 68
Interesting, of course they would only install Patriot missle systems at important high-value target locations. They don't protect citizens infrastructure unless you have unlimited Patriots, which they don't. They are strategically placed to protect core government.
It would justify it be government buildings located in central city locale, even Kiev is possible film location. The outdoor lighting is projected on buildings like stone architecture.
I could be the center of Kiev government, (literally).
Also, theres people running away to right side.
Posted by: Thomas G Franklin | May 16 2023 16:10 utc | 70
Hardly definitive. Can't tell crap from that video. I'm not saying the Patriot didn't get toasted. Who knows? But the video sure isn't clear proof of it.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 16 2023 16:12 utc | 71
One wonders why the Americans are struggling so hard to catch up with their hypersonic missiles if they can be so easily shot down by Patriot-like systems that their enemies probably also have...
Posted by: Frenchalps | May 16 2023 16:16 utc | 72
@ Alaric | May 16 2023 15:44 utc | 58
I agree, it looks too small to be a Kinzhal. Of course there is no need to use a Kinzhal after the Patriot has used up all its missiles. Whatever it was, it didn't leave a trail during its terminal phase, which means it was a drone or a glide munition.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | May 16 2023 16:18 utc | 73
According to the "kyiv independent"
"Ukrainian air defense successfully shot down all of the 18 Russian missiles targeting Ukraine overnight, including six Kinzhal ballistic missiles, Valerii Zaluzhnyi, commander-in-chief of Ukraine's Armed Forces, and the Air Force said on May 16."
"In addition to shooting down six Kinzhal missiles, Ukraine's air defense successfully took out nine Kalibr missiles and three land-based missiles, including both S-400 and Iskander-M missiles, the Air Force said."
"The Air Force also said that it had also downed six Iranian-made Shahed-136/131 kamikaze drones and three reconnaissance drones that included Orlan-10 and SuperCam types."
Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | May 16 2023 16:19 utc | 74
@ Chevrus | May 16 2023 14:49 utc | 26
thanks...i agree with you... as for the 'wake up'... i think it has already happened to a large extent, at least with regard to the ukrainian people.. they have voted with their feet and left ukraine... i keep hearing about recent arrivals from ukraine here in canada.. mind you, it is canada, land of the nazi loving freaks, but even still.. i am not sure russia will take 'all' of russia... maybe richard steven hack can comment again on this.. i see he is missing.. i do agree though that russia is taking a very measured approach which i personally think is very smart.. however, they might have to break out of this pattern given the insanity of the west...
as for public opinion in the rest of the world, i think most people are very tired of this and wish it was over... a knee jerk response is to blame russia, but as others have rightly noted - this war started 9 years ago and has been ongoing.. it ramped up in 2022, but ignoring the history - something the msm is very good at doing! ) doesn't change any of this... many people know this too.. cheers..
Posted by: james | May 16 2023 16:19 utc | 75
https://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0049.htm
The main characteristics of DU are flammability (uranium can spontaneously ignite and then burn at temperatures of above 10,832 degrees Fahrenheit)..............Contact temperature between the projectile and the armor is 2,069 degrees Fahrenheit. Usually the burning projectile will ignite ammunition or the fuel within the tank. So, if a DU projectile hit a tank with depleted uranium, the tank would explode immediately because of the high temperature. The projectile would burn on impact, releasing fine insoluble uranium oxide particles that can then be spread by the wind, inhaled and absorbed into the human body or by animals and plants. The particles remain in the body system for extended periods of time. Uranium oxide particles are highly toxic for the soil. They pollute the environment and create up to a 100% increase in uranium levels in ground water (U.N. Environmental Program, http://seattlepi.nwsource.com).
Hardly reassuring !
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | May 16 2023 16:23 utc | 77
*** "In addition to shooting down six Kinzhal missiles, Ukraine's air defense successfully took out nine Kalibr missiles and three land-based missiles, including both S-400 and Iskander-M missiles, the Air Force said."
"The Air Force also said that it had also downed six Iranian-made Shahed-136/131 kamikaze drones and three reconnaissance drones that included Orlan-10 and SuperCam types." ***
...... and a partridge in a pear tree?
Posted by: Cynic | May 16 2023 16:28 utc | 80
oh, “at least three Russian scientists who have worked on hypersonic missile development have been arrested on suspicion of treason over the past year, their colleagues said in an open letter published Monday.”
Posted by: Ing. Smrkovsky | May 16 2023 16:30 utc | 81
#47. You write:
"Now it is the Patriots that are clearing the skys of Russian missiles over The Ukraine. Oh the Glory!
The vid of the Patriot launching reminded me of the skys over Bagdad at night during the first gulf war. With the Iraq AA firing off everything they had, blindly in the air.
Same old tired joke with a different punchline. When is this aged comedian going to retire?"
Yes, I agree with you on this, all of NATO is a joke and we have no serious weapons.
Posted by: Fnord73 | May 16 2023 16:31 utc | 82
Thomas G Franklin | May 16 2023 16:10 utc | 70--
Before attacking government buildings, you first attack their AD systems. And IMO, the AD systems were the primary target. I expect other video to emerge and it's daylight now so satellite BDA photos should soon be available.
I don't see any signs of interceptions being made--no flashes coming from above lighting up the night sky further. However, getting Ukies to launch that number of AD missiles was a victory in itself. So, what will go Ka-Boom tonight and where?
Someone upthread mentioned getting the locations of such installations. I mentioned that craft in a comment yesterday about how proficient Russia is in securing such "illegal intelligence." Hopscotching around Ukieland, will Lvov be next or some other place with major war material stores? Any barflies think that won't occur?
https://www.csis.org/analysis/patriot-ukraine-what-does-it-mean
Patriot batteries generally deploy with five to eight launchers equipped with a mix of PAC-3 missiles and the older, less expensive PAC-2 missiles. Assuming five launchers with PAC-2s (four per launcher) and three with PAC-3s (16 per launcher), and two reloads for each launcher, the missile costs could be about $700 million.
The high cost per missile and the relatively small number of missiles in a battery means that Patriot operators cannot shoot at every target. High-value Russian aircraft and ballistic missiles would be appropriate targets. Shooting $4 million missiles at $250,000 Russian cruise missiles might be justified if those missiles would hit sensitive targets. Shooting a $4 million missile at a $50,000 Iranian Shahed-136 drone would probably not.
Even with restrictive rules of engagement, Patriot operations must be judicious about what they shoot at. If Russia fires large missile salvos at its defended area, the Patriot battery could quickly run out of interceptors.
I do wonder how many $4 million Patriot missiles were destroyed in the depots Russia just vaporised ?
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | May 16 2023 16:32 utc | 84
When was the last time "Ukrainska Pravda" wrote the truth?
Ukrainska Pravda means Ukrainian Truth - basically an oxymoron
Posted by: Aslangeo | May 16 2023 16:33 utc | 85
So, a year later, Russia finally gains the edge in the war my indiscriminately killing masses of civilians with area weapons. Putin again demonstrates his genius
"I love the smell of victory in the morning, it smells like - charred bodies!"
Posted by: Noam A. Larkey | May 16 2023 14:34 utc | 19
---------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Noam is of course full of ma-Larkey. Russia did not start this war, Joe Biden, backed by the NATO Bloc, is responsible for the smell of "charred bodies" that upset Mr. ma-Larkey so much.
President Putin tried for years and years, right up to the last minute, to negotiate a new security arrangement that would have provided for a peaceful relationship between Russia, Ukraine, and the NATO Bloc, which did not include NATO missiles parked on Russia's border.
There has been a lot of concern trolling here at MoA (and other places) about the slow pace of the SMO by Russia. Concern trolls, many of them, one may suspect, associated with pro Ukraine propaganda organizations complain that there are not enough "charred bodies" on the battlefield or in the urban areas. Let me remind you and all of them that it is the US and the NATO Bloc that has consistently elevated the level of war technology in this US proxy war which THEY are responsible for.
Posted by: Ed | May 16 2023 16:34 utc | 86
Another impression: The missile volleys look like the equivalent of holding your M-16 with banana clip above your head over the edge of your entrenchment and emptying the clip using auto while not hitting any actual targets.
@Piotr Berman #63
so launching missiles at a major population center is not intended to kill civilians, but only to make a political statement? Why the heck don't they just drop leaflets instead?
Putin is prepared to walk over heaps of corpses in order to pull a victory out of his special military operation. If you think that is justified, I can only hope you never find yourself at the receiving end of some leader's Continuation of Diplomacy by Other Means.
Posted by: Noam A. Larkey | May 16 2023 16:37 utc | 88
"A Patriot system was likely damaged but not destroyed by a Russian missile barrage Monday night"
Do you suppose that's "highly likely"? Maybe they hit the launch vehicles and damaged the RADAR/command unit. A direct hit on the command unit and RADARs would be fatal.
Posted by: the pessimist | May 16 2023 16:45 utc | 89
Quote from the update above
A Patriot system was likely damaged but not destroyedNow that's what I call damage control (of the information).
Posted by: Brendan | May 16 2023 16:46 utc | 90
Did NATO annex Russian territory? Did NATO invade Russian territory?
Did Biden ever claim that Russia had "no historical right to exist" as Putin did with Ukraine?
Of course NATO has an interest in aiding Ukraine in maintaining the integrity of its territory. But I do not see how you can twist things to make them out to be the aggressor here.
But that is a pointless discussion on this site.
Posted by: Noam A. Larkey | May 16 2023 16:47 utc | 91
Posted by: Ing. Smrkovsky | May 16 2023 16:30 utc | 81
*** www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/05/16/3-russian-hypersonic-missile-scientists-jailed-for-treasoncolleagues-say-a81155 ***
Believe allegations by an anti-Russia tabloid published in the NATO-puppet Netherlands?
Posted by: Cynic | May 16 2023 16:48 utc | 92
Noam A. Larkey #88: Yep, welcome to the site where the fascists think they are communists. Its tankie heaven, QAnon for leftists. Here people believe in Putins Plan.
Posted by: Fnord73 | May 16 2023 16:49 utc | 93
Patriot system destroyed 7 TIE fighters, 15 Cylon raiders, 2 Death Stars, 3 Gorts, 4 Klingon Birds of Prey and 1 Marvin the Martian....also Rick and Morty were slightly injured in the crossfire...
Posted by: andy | May 16 2023 14:39 utc | 23
-----------------------------------------------------
According to the Klingons, the Klingons destroyed all the Starship's missiles.
Posted by: Ed | May 16 2023 16:49 utc | 94
Why is anyone surprised that Patriot was obliterated? Even sandal wearing Yemenis passed through Patriot defense with toy chinese drones.
I remember when Yemenis damaged the Aramco plant which was guarded by Patriots the Amwrican excuse was that the Patriots were pointing North to Iran and not south. LoLz
Posted by: Comandante | May 16 2023 16:50 utc | 95
Most telling will be if the US MSM runs with the Ukraine's success propaganda, or decides to be silent? Each network may even trot out their very best propagandists for the show? Or not?
Patriots shooting down 6 Kinzhals is hardly something that can be ignored!
Posted by: Up North | May 16 2023 16:52 utc | 96
All Malarkey | May 16 2023 16:37 utc | 88
Stationing military assets in civilian areas puts civilians at risk and is considered inhumane - but Kiev is happy to do this for the propaganda value it gets from civilian deaths caused by this practice. Kiev would rather de-populate Ukraine than negotiate it seems.
Posted by: the pessimist | May 16 2023 16:53 utc | 97
PAC-3 (Patriot Advanced Capability 3) MSE (Missile Segment Enhancement): PAC 3 MSE. lockheed martin
lockheed is proposing these to go into vertical launchers in the us navy aegis system. said to be cheaper than sm 3 or 6 upgrades, and have test fired from vertical launchers as on arleigh burke class destroyers.
the pac 3 sme has somewhat extended range and wider target variety over older patriot missiles.
one issue with the statement that patriot is alon. the weekend "ambush" suggests that operational surveillance and weapons control from us/nato meads is is play.
possible that lessons from the 'ambush' are already deployed.
one aspect of patriot in r&d is a newer radar.
all this comes under the us' star wars program, 40 odd years of science projects with very little to show.
missile defense is hard, much harder when the developers are assured a profit!
Posted by: paddy | May 16 2023 16:53 utc | 98
none of these systems work.
Be it Patriot, Iris, Arrow etc.
But it´s one thing to "allege". (Regardless of having maximum proof.)
another to admit it from US side.
A dream you can sell.
A negative fact not.
It wont´matter if in effect the dream gets people killed whereas sticking to the negative fact would save lives and of course tons of money.
So, the IDF i.e. is keeping their data on Iron Dome´s true performance totally secret.
They know why.
crazy world.
Galilei all over again...
Posted by: AG | May 16 2023 16:55 utc | 99
German politicians are so stupid!
You pay attention to where you have to wait...
These jets then come by train or truck for maintenance?
Abstract :
Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann again refused the delivery of German fighter jets to Ukraine on Tuesday. She sees no tornado and no Eurofighter over Ukrainian airspace, said the chair of the Bundestag Defense Committee.
"It simply has something to do with the range of the machine and the complexity of the training."
At the same time, the FDP politician described the delivery of other types of aircraft, such as a Soviet-made MiG or the US-made F-16, as helpful.
"Of course, one could offer Zelensky to make military bases available in Germany where the F-16s would be serviced."
excerpt end
.
And NO ONE talks about taking part in the war... No, no, we're not!
Posted by: mo3.1 | May 16 2023 16:56 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
It looks like both Patriot systems in Kiev were embraced by the Kinzhals, one from the US and the other from Germany. Zelensky might as well by a catapult... :)
Posted by: ostro | May 16 2023 13:54 utc | 1