Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 23, 2023
F-16s To Ukraine

A few days ago U.S. President Joe Biden announced the training of Ukrainian pilots for the F-16 multirole fighter aircraft:

President Joe Biden told G7 leaders on Friday that the US would join in efforts to train Ukraine’s pilots on fourth generation fighter jets including the F-16s, a senior administration official told CNN on Friday.

This has obviously been in the planning for some time. The timing of the announcement at the G7 summit was simply chosen to maximize the propaganda value for Biden.

The process we have seen has repeated itself again and again. As pro-Ukrainian blogger (with no military knowledge) describes it:

This has clearly become a proxy war between Russia and NATO, supercharging the political considerations inherent to any war. Ukraine’s goal is to wheedle as much military aid as humanly possibly out of NATO, especially the United States. The United States’ goal is more complex: give enough aid to push Russia back, but not so much that its proxy war with Russia escalates into an actual one.

This dynamic has created a Hunger Games scenario where Ukraine is constantly playing to the cameras to cajole extra gifts from the wealthy sponsors who watch its every move over the internet in real time. I had decided against using this analogy until I saw Ukrainians themselves using it. There is something grotesque and sobering about finding yourself in this position, and writing about it. But it is what it is.

I had assumed that F-16 training had in fact already started several weeks back. The EU blabber mouth Josep Borrell now all but confirmed it:

The European Union’s foreign policy chief said on Tuesday that the US green light to allow Ukrainian pilots to get training to fly F-16s has created an inexorable momentum that will inevitably bring the fighter jets to the Ukrainian battlefield.

Borrell added that training for Ukrainian pilots had already begun in Poland and some other countries, though authorities in Warsaw could not immediately confirm the news. The Netherlands and Denmark, among others, are also making plans for such training.

No decision on actually delivering fourth-generation fighter jets has been taken yet, but training pilots now – a process that takes several months – will help speed up battle readiness once a formal decision is made.

The process will be much faster than many assume.

The jets the Ukraine will get have already been selected and will go through ready maintenance. The Ukrainian pilots, who already have some experience on other fighter jets, will get just a short introduction course – six to eight weeks or even less. They do not need to train air to air fights because the F-16 would lose any such fight against the newer and better armed Russian jets. They just need to learn the basics, starting, landing, going up to a certain height and launch point, release whatever long range weapon will be on board. Anything else would be suicide.

The big question is where to start and land from. The F-16 has a relative short combat range of some 500 kilometer and there will be no air to air tankers. There ain't that many airfield that are suitable for the fighter jet's missions.

Someone who seems competent explains the problem (edited):

The Ukrainian Air Force, to my knowledge, has had to use guerilla airfield tactics to keep the Russians guessing as to where they are operating from. This is to prevent Moscow from targeting the aircraft/impromptu airfield from drone attacks and air strikes, destroying stationary aircraft or the rendering the “runway” unusable. Soviet-built aircraft are sublimely suited to this.

For ex, the MiG-29 “Fulcrum” uses automatic Foreign Object Debris (FOD) covers that close for initial start up (vid). Meanwhile louvres located at the top of the wing-root open to provide alternate air intake to the jet engines. Upon take off, once the weight on wheels (WoW) switch in the nose gear detects it is off the ground, the louvers cycle closed and the FOD covers on the primary intake retract, allowing max airflow to the engines once the danger of FOD damage has passed. This ingenious design allows the Fulcrum to operate, not only from unimproved runways or even highways, but even from grass fields. The wing itself and the distance to the ground preventing small stones and debris from getting sucked into the delicate engines.

I cannot stress how dangerous and debilitating FOD is to aircraft. A single rock, bolt, nut, or minor road debris can have a cataclysmic effect on a modern high-performance jet engine. It may not even happen immediately, the damage could happen on take off, then progressively get worse during flight as the blades, now potentially bent or unbalanced begin to self-destruct the engine internals. Even if a MiG-29 happens to shell out an engine because of the careless placement of a bolt or tool by a mechanic or the ingestion of a bird during flight or take off, the MiG HAS TWO ENGINES which are isolated in separate bays, preventing the destruction of one engine from FOD-ing out the second.

The F-16, by contrast, is definitely not suited for this style of airfield. The bottom of the intake lip sits approximately 30” from the ground with no provision of alternate intake. In addition, all the suction flow of that air comes from the sides, fore, and ground since no air can be ingested from above the engine (that’s where the fuselage is). With no provision for FOD protection or alternate, high-mounted intakes during the entire time spent on the ground, this calls for rigid and inflexible FOD control measures from the location of engine start, to taxiing routes to the runway.

In the USAF, this meant hundreds of maintainers walking at arms-length intervals two to three times a day with eyes on the ground looking for any and every piece of debris that could be ingested by the multi-million dollar vacuum cleaner with only ONE engine we were charged with maintaining. In addition, an almost constant procession of street-cleaners rumbled up and down the flightline, taxiways and runway. Everything had to be spotless lest we risk the aircraft, or worse, the pilots.

Imagine the preparation it would take to complete this process on a 10,000 foot long straight highway, in the dark, while trying to be as inconspicuous as possible so as not to draw the attention of collaborators or Russian spies. You couldn’t hop from highway to highway or run from unimproved airfields like the Ukrainian Air Force can do with MiG-29s, you’d be handcuffed or at the very least less mobile. Imagine a disused Soviet airfield that suddenly had all its weeds plucked from the cracks in the concrete, concrete patched, the runway spotless. What signal does that send? “F-16s could, will, or are operating from here.”

There are several other issues discussed in the above thread. The maintenance philosophy behind U.S. and Russian build planes is different. The Russians just change factory parts and systems, U.S. maintainer try to repair them locally:

The MiG-29 averages about 11 hrs of maintenance for every ONE hr of flight. The F-16? A whopping increase to 18.5 maintenance hrs for every one hr of flight time. These are per aircraft with experienced crews. These figures also assume decent airframe hours on the aircraft.

The Ukraine will also need a sufficient number of competent maintainers. The training for them will likely take more time than for the pilots. The author of the above suggests a solution:

Plenty of mechanics in Europe and the US are happy to lend their services to the UAF as members of the “International Legion” or the modern day iteration of the “Flying Tigers”. Myself included.

Well, good luck doing maintenance on the F-16s that will soon sit on those few available and thereby quite vulnerable Ukrainian airfields.

Russian air defenses, from the ground and from the air, can certainly suppress any F-16 flights coming near to them.

The only sensible purpose of those planes is thereby their one or two time use as a launching vehicles for long range missiles like the British Storm Shadow cruise missiles that were given to Ukraine. It is easy to train for those missions but I doubt that they will make any noticeable difference.

Comments

I think the F16 is just the show, F16 are useless. It would make more sense, to send planes that the Ukrainians already know (Mig/SU) and the sure exist somewhere.
Thatswhy i think, creat a western airplain logistics is the primary goal of this idea and with the next delivery (F22/F35 or or or) the logistics knows the problems and may have solutions.
It’s getting crazier and crazier.
They are like little children who can’t lose games.

Posted by: theo | May 23 2023 21:56 utc | 201

The whole F-16 BS is just that, bullshit. Take the attention off the ass kicking the Ukes are taking, again!! They can station those jets close to Ukraine but I highly doubt they ever see a single sortie. If they move them into Ukraine, they’ll be targeted quite quickly on the ground. If they miraculously do make an attempted bombing run, they’ll be targeted and shot down, further embarrassing an already embarrassed and desperate West. They know they’ve already lost so might as well keep throwing hail marys hoping something works. Intelligent people would realize it’s a lost cause and start negotiating a fair deal that gives everyone security guarantees. Not these bunch of clowns. Rather lose it all than admit defeat. Doesn’t matter how many aces they have up their sleeve, Russia has a Royal Flush. Been a hell of a show so far. Can’t wait to see how the west shoots itself in the foot next.

Posted by: Watzov | May 23 2023 21:57 utc | 202

Ing. Smrkovsky | May 23 2023 21:34 utc | 191
*** obviously many countries have been training landing F-16s on highways ***
Guess the numerous potholes afflicting British roads must be a cunning plan by the authorities to defend against the US-empire….

Posted by: Cynic | May 23 2023 21:57 utc | 203

Without AWACS planes F-16 is useless
F-16 is simply NATO offering more targets and US in global war on many fronts requiring cancellation of 2024 election and suspension of US Constitution in State of Emergency

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | May 23 2023 22:00 utc | 204

Sushi #15:28 utc | 11
Thank you, excellent post.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 23 2023 22:05 utc | 205

Yes, basing these sound but elderly fighter planes in Poland would improve their survival chances, but are the Poles really crazy enough to allow that? Perhaps…Even so, the Russians don’t have much reason for concern…
But as far as Biden resurrecting the draft, that would be political suicide, so it can’t happen until after the 2024 election, when the Democrat crazies plan to install a dictatorship…

Posted by: pyrrhus | May 23 2023 22:06 utc | 206

who do we fight, though?
Posted by: pretzelattack | May 23 2023 21:52 utc | 199

As far as the Nuland camp are concerned that will be anyone who stands in the way of their objectives, which is the dissolution of Russia, the freedom to extract wealth from a fractured Russia and the removal of any nation which would dare to believe that they can achieve parity status with the US, meaning China and a potential future India.

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | May 23 2023 22:08 utc | 207

BTW point taken on the F16 range. The reason I believed the af.mil website was because I could not believe that the F16’s range could possibly be that small. It is shocking. The Su-35 easily has over twice the range of the F16. I guess the F16 doesn’t need that much range when it spends most of its time dropping bombs from Israel to the Gaza Strip and Syria.
Posted by: Christian Chuba | May 23 2023 18:17 utc | 110

Su-35 is a 4.5-generation fighter, and a massive upgrade over the Su-27. It’s not an apples-to-apples comparison. And the Su-27 isn’t the direct competitor to the F-16 — the US developed the F-16 as a cheaper complement to the F-15 (later on F-35/F-22 were supposed to have the same relationship), while in the USSR the equivalent pair was MiG-29/Su-27.
So the direct comparison is MiG-29 vs. F-16. And the F-16 still loses — MiG-29’s range is cited as 700–900 km — plus of course it is no contest whatsoever on aerodynamics and maneuverability.

Posted by: shadowbanned | May 23 2023 22:08 utc | 208

@42, Paxmark, Yes, I have the book,”Alas Babylon”. I enjoy the apocalyptic genre.
@43, Hoarsewhisperer, I’ve also read “The Peter Principal”, when I studied psychology.
@49, Norwegian, and yes, I have the Blue Oyster Cult album, ME-262. Old, old vinyl. Saw them in the 70s, with Kansas.

Posted by: Immaculate deception | May 23 2023 22:09 utc | 209

UKRAINIAN LOSSES ON RUSSIAN TERRITORY
Kiev’s attempt to hide its defeat in Bakhmut was costly. The group of Ukrainian servicemen that crossed Russian border and attacked the villages in the Belgorod region was destroyed.
According to the Russian Ministry of Defense, the saboteurs were “thrown back from the Belgorod region to the territory of Ukraine.” During the Russian security operation, 70 saboteurs were killed, 4 IFVs and 5 pickups were destroyed.
The attack was aimed at gaining large hype in the media. That’s why Ukrainian militants were actively filming their actions, sharing glorious videos online.
While Ukrainian media attempted to deny the reports of the Russian Defence Ministry sharing these old videos and claiming that Ukrainian forces were still in control of the Russian territory. However, new footage from the area confirmed that the Ukrainian grouping was destroyed or pushed back to Ukraine:
Footage from the region confirmed the following Ukrainian losses:
2 American M1224 MaxxPro (both captured);
2 American HMMWV M1151A1 (both damaged and abandoned);
1 American HMMWV M1152A1 (destroyed);
1 Ukrainian KRAZ COBRA (destroyed);
1 Polish AMZ Dzik-2 (destroyed).
Heavy human losses were also confirmed by photos.

In the afternoon of May 23, the governor of the Belgorod region examined the trophies. He also reported that residents of Grayvoron and Golovchino returned to their homes. Transfer of civilians back to the villages of Gora-Podol, Glotovo and Kozinki is underway.
The restoration of electricity supply is ongoing. Tomorrow the local services will begin a house-by-house inspection of the territory, since a lot of houses and cars have been destroyed. The governor promised to restore everything quickly.
https://southfront.org/military-overview-ukrainian-losses-on-russian-territory-18/

Posted by: HERMIUS | May 23 2023 22:09 utc | 210

@ SattaMassaGana | May 23 2023 21:44 utc | 197
Regardless of what we think about the Nuland crowd the decision has been made to fight on the lie.
Ok, sounds good. Is that something new in American military affairs?
To a Stoltenberg’s statement that increased sending a piles of weapons and covertly operating those in a combat zone “doesn’t mean that NATO is a part of the war”, is just a blatant obfuscating lie that would not hold on any provincial court.
Russian pre-emptive argument there, might as well be as such as “by bombing NATO assets all over our near-field security zone doesn’t mean that we are provoking the war with NATO”.
Do you think that such moves are not anticipated and decided by RF strategos?
This conflict is if-then all the time. It is just verrry slooow, so we have difficulty seeing those conditionals.

Posted by: whirlX | May 23 2023 22:13 utc | 211

Arch Bungle #15:43 utc | 19

My prediction is that the Russians will not destroy the bases *but instead* destroy the fighter planes on the return journey.

Yep something like that. Maybe even periodic long range drones scattering the dreaded titanium flake FOD along the runways after takeoff 😉
I expect the pilots are assembled and all this blather has been to cover their weeks of preparation and recruit sufficient kamikaze minded pilots.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 23 2023 22:13 utc | 212

In response to Mark2@168,
That’s fair enough. However, I take into account the apparent irrationality of Russia’s Western interlocutors. I just think their irrationality manifests in the risks they’re willing to take more so than some inability to understand the underlying logic of this situation and the potential consequences inherent in seeing this process through to the end. Even Barack Obama and, by extension, whoever was advising him on the matter, spelled it out in 2015, not that he pioneered the idea — it’s a well established understanding stemming from the Cold War days.
This isn’t a runaway train; there are people at the controls. These people understand perfectly well that the rails are worn out, that they’re running the engine too hot, that they’re pulling passenger wagons and the slightest miscalculation, or dumb chance, will end in catastrophe.
As for the end-game, that history isn’t written yet. I wasn’t making predictions, only explaining why a conventional NATO operation isn’t taken into consideration, since it’s reasonable to assume that it would go nuclear — ergo, one would expect a nuclear first strike to take priority in NATO thinking. Whether that will happen or is being considered in earnest is beyond me.
I think, more probably, the main emphasis of NATO and Western powers is to avoid a nuclear exchange and continue banking on destabilizing Russia internally, while prolonging the conflict in Ukraine for as long as possible. Meaning, the military component of their involvement will be designed to be ineffective and, if necessary, even coordinated with Russia. While this is essentially a non-strategy strategy, in essence stalling for time, it is at the very least:
– within their capacity
– has at least some hope of success, however unlikely
– acceptable to the Russians.
That’s right, the Russian leadership is fine with this approach and, I believe, do their best to play it up as a viable option. People have been conditioned to think, ironically by the transparently phony Western anti-Russian propaganda, that Russia is incapable of information war — that the very premise is a fiction created by agenda-driven narratives in the West and that in reality Russia is inept in the info-sphere and naively honest to its own detriment. In reality, I think Russian false narratives are so convincing that her adversaries end up using them against themselves.
If it’s to be a marathon between Russia and ROW on one hand, and Ukraine and the West on the other, RF is feeling confident in its ultimate success, but would obviously prefer for Western leaders to think otherwise when looking at other, more extreme options. So far, neither the West nor Russia have gone beyond this paradigm and I personally don’t think that’s going to change.
Cheers.

Posted by: Skiffer | May 23 2023 22:14 utc | 213

Posted by: Mark2 | May 23 2023 20:44 utc | 169
Many thanks – I was not aware of that one
Grace, wisdom & strength to you as well…

Posted by: xLemming | May 23 2023 22:17 utc | 214

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | May 23 2023 22:08 utc | 206
i mean who do we fight, not who nuland et al want us to fight. the people threatening our lives are the nuland crowd, and all the beltway apparatchiks in DC who stand with and enable them.

Posted by: pretzelattack | May 23 2023 22:18 utc | 215

The F-16 and deployment / attack distance indicates how much their failure to capture Belarus via color-revolution a while back may have messed up US/NATO long-term conflict plans.

Posted by: Cynic | May 23 2023 22:21 utc | 216

at Arch Bungle
#180
Your correction noted…. I am missing a large piece of the globe when I think of the coming war. But all of it will be damaged.

Posted by: medo | May 23 2023 22:22 utc | 217

karlof1 #17:58 utc | 101

When it comes to the F-35, isn’t the term “operational readiness” an oxymoron?

Perhaps the first word is wishful thinking and the last word means Pay the final invoice NOW.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 23 2023 22:31 utc | 218

So it turns out there is indeed a major nuclear weapon storage site right where the Belgorod incursion happened:
https://twitter.com/russianforces/status/1660997259285209088/
This was no random raid.
And it is not at all certain it had been emptied as it is in fact one of the central storage sites. Who leaves such an important object right next to the frontline and almost unguarded is simply unfathomable…

Posted by: shadowbanned | May 23 2023 22:34 utc | 219

It seems that whatever Pepe Escobar writes nowadays can be appropriate for any topic, and so today we have “The inside story of Russia-Iran-India connectivity”:

Make no mistake about what the G7’s Hiroshima Communique [Link at Original] is all about.
The setting: a city in neo-colony Japan nuclear-bombed 78 years ago by the United States, for which it made no excuses.
The message: the G7, actually G9 (augmented by two unelected Eurocrats) declares war – hybrid and otherwise – against BRICS+, which has 25 nations on its waiting list and counting.
The G7’s key strategic objective is the defeat of Russia, followed by the subjugation of China. For the G7/G9, these – real – powers are the main “global threats” to “freedom and democracy.”
The corollary is that the Global South must toe the line – or else. Call it a remix of the early 2000s “you’re either with us or against us.”
Meanwhile, in the real world – that of productive economies – the dogs of war bark while the New Silk Road caravans keep marching on.

Before going further, I should note that the G-7 Communique’s Peramble begins with the following BigLie:
Our work is rooted in respect for the Charter of the United Nations (UN) and international partnership.
And that’s more than enough grounds to raise one’s ire at that group. As you read Pepe’s narrative you’ll see why he concludes:
“Fasten your seat belts: a geoeconomic New Great Game centered on the INTSC is just about to start.”
But, do take note of the completion time for many of these projects. Just because an MoU (Memorandum of Understanding) is signed doesn’t mean the project will start tomorrow; rather, MoUs are only the first step in a long process. And the G-7 is keen to scrap it all.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 23 2023 22:35 utc | 220

Quick add-on to my 33, 58 –
If there is something to those possible leaks through Canadian media (and there’s no better indication that big Z is rollin’ with Nazis than the way Scholz greeted him… and Sunak, Macron and Meloni, come to think of it. Charles Michel starting as the prince of darkness, IMV.) – then… did someone make an attempt on Orban’s life earlier this month with a drone? And if so, would Hungary fire up a Saab Gripen and perhaps respond in some way? And if they did, how would a curious person locate evidence of that response?
Here’s what I found:
Tweet from Defence Minister of Hungary… I don’t know. What kind of introduction?
https://twitter.com/SzBobrovniczky/status/1655567580218703873
Here he says WWII started because of a local war between Germany and Poland that Poland mishandled. (!) or something like that
https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/poland-slams-hungarian-general-for-distorting-ww2-facts/
Did everyone hear about those killer whales attacking yachts in Europe?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/05/23/killer-whale-gladis-gang-orcas-sinking-yachts-gibraltar/
Killer whale sightings in waters very near Vancouver too.
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/vancouver-photographer-captures-images-of-orcas-metres-from-his-kayak-1.6407715
I don’t know.

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | May 23 2023 22:39 utc | 221

Posted by: SusanWelsh | May 23 2023 17:23 utc | 81
Embarrassed as heck. I have the Long Telegram and other of his writings and cannot believe the error. Must be the latent Ukrainian in me coming to the surface.
Cheers!

Posted by: Sushi | May 23 2023 22:43 utc | 222

@31 Paul damascene.
Wonder no more. The secret is that ukraine and russia are viewed as the same entity. The scheme is to depopulate the former russian empire and then fill it with a skeleton crew for resource production. So you see they put in weapons a bit at a time to keep things even and to kill russians(as the Ukrainians are considered Russians, the obedient sort.)
In this light we can see russias strategy of attacking the same points attacking straight into prepared defences is also part of the Depopulation strategy.
Hence Putin is in on it, and deliberately destroying russia for a 300 billion payoff.
No where did his central bank lady put those reserves ?!?!??!

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | May 23 2023 22:44 utc | 223

Skiffer@212
thanks for that considered opinion, let’s hope your right and I’m wrong.
I probaly sound negative. But I’m trying to be realist. We’l see.
What will be will be.
But but all I know is this….
If I were Vladimir Putin that all this conflict has taken place on Russian turf and bordering areas. Whilst the west has gone unscathed.
That fact will need to be rectified…
To truly achieve a western sence of mortality.
The western ‘mafia’ no the rules ‘mort’ for Mort.
It’s best served cold they say.
But cheers to you.
Bloody good thread this one.
Now I’m outta here.
———
Cheers xLemming

Posted by: Mark2 | May 23 2023 22:44 utc | 224

Time for a break …
“Going Down” at the Jeff Beck Tribute Concert (Royal Albert Hall) May 22, 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChDUjLf4O9U

Posted by: Don Firineach | May 23 2023 22:46 utc | 225

shadowbanned | May 23 2023 22:34 utc | 218
*** And it is not at all certain it had been emptied as it is in fact one of the central storage sites. Who leaves such an important object right next to the frontline and almost unguarded is simply unfathomable…***
Seen which General is in charge of that area?

Posted by: Cynic | May 23 2023 22:46 utc | 226

But as far as Biden resurrecting the draft, that would be political suicide, so it can’t happen until after the 2024 election, when the Democrat crazies plan to install a dictatorship…
Posted by: pyrrhus | May 23 2023 22:06 utc | 205
——————————————–
We already have a dictatorship of the rich, the rest of us just get to come together every few years and vote on which dictatorship will be in charge for another few years.

Posted by: Ed | May 23 2023 22:47 utc | 227

Acco Hengst | May 23 2023 21:37 utc | 192–
The “trigger pullers” are unseen and are known as The Donors, the Oligarchy controlling marionettes like Blinken. As for “a way out,” the current doctrine says there can only be victory at the end; there’s no Plan B, which is also part of the answer to Paul of Damascene’s query.
Both sides have a goal neither of which is compatible; it’s Zero-sum because of US Doctrine, although from Russia’s POV, the Big Picture could be seen as Win-Win for the RoW.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 23 2023 22:47 utc | 228

What America and england needs at this late late stage, is….
A sence of their own mortality. ..(judging by this thread thats beginning to dawn on people)
Plus…. empathy…
You are no better than anyone else, no more entiled than anyone else.
Result… world peace.
Posted by: Mark2 | May 23 2023 21:04 utc | 177
For that, I’d take up drinking again and raise a glass.

Posted by: kupkee | May 23 2023 22:53 utc | 229

pyrrhus # 22:06 utc | 205

Yes, basing these sound but elderly fighter planes in Poland would improve their survival chances, but are the Poles really crazy enough to allow that? Perhaps…Even so, the Russians don’t have much reason for concern…

Take one look at Moldova where they have a WEFie President entirely out of step with the populace and ratfucking their nation. The Polish people have a vaguely similar circumstance but are being played continuously to induce a nationalist revivalist trance. All opposition is denounced as traitorous.
The WEFies/Westies have been widely installed and coddled daily. Make a list now of every cv of political wannabe’s who are claiming WEF or NGO credentials and you have identified the enemy within.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 23 2023 22:54 utc | 230

Posted by: Lex | May 23 2023 17:34 utc | 85
Likely the most significant miscalculation was that the US/UK wouldn’t spike negotiations.
Agree. Z was reported to be ready to abdicate until Boris arrived.
By implication Boris has a great deal to answer for in respect to all the subsequent carnage.
It would be interesting to know in what capacity he made his visit. A PM free-booting in Foreign Policy? Defence Policy? With or without Cabinet discussion and agreement? It is highly likely his intervention was ultra vires. In most Parliamentary democracies if you act without appropriate prior legal authority you expose yourself to legal liability.

Posted by: Sushi | May 23 2023 22:57 utc | 231

Ok, sounds good. Is that something new in American military affairs?
Posted by: whirlX | May 23 2023 22:13 utc | 210

Simple question and the short answer is no. Very far from new. What is new is the landscape in which the lie is now told is markedly different to previous landscapes.
Do you think that such moves are not anticipated and decided by RF strategos?
This conflict is if-then all the time. It is just verrry slooow, so we have difficulty seeing those conditionals.

I would fully expect all parties to have multiple potential short term strategies which change with some strategies coming to the fore and others receding depending on whats happening week by week or month by month and all of these feeding into the larger overarching strategic objectives.
As for It is just verrry slooow, so we have difficulty seeing those conditionals it does seem slow for me behind a keyboard but for the ones ones at the sharp end I dare say time might seem to pass much more quickly. However I take your point, its often very hard to see the reasons behind what transpires on the battle field so all we can do theorise then wait to see if our theories hold true.

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | May 23 2023 22:58 utc | 232

break contd.
Eric Clapton I put a spell on you Live Albert Hall May 22 2023 Jeff Beck Tribute
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy2rhckIxPw

Posted by: Don Firineach | May 23 2023 22:59 utc | 233

We can learn about Outlaw US Empire policy via this one behavioral aspect China consistently points out: In this specific case, “For China-US ties to thaw Washington must be sincere [My Emphasis] Sincerity being synonymous with truthful, honest, etc., which happens only on very rare occasions. So far, Team Biden hasn’t been sincere at all with Ukraine, EU or Russia, or much of anything else that matters, which reflects its Donors insincerity.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 23 2023 23:02 utc | 234

RE: Posted by: shadowbanned | May 23 2023 22:34 utc | 218
You’re all in a knot because “twitter” posted nonsense? Or happy for another opportunity to drone on about Russian incompetence?
There are many of us that worked on or around nuclear power, weapons & storage sites. The twitter story is just that, a fairytale. You have zero idea what was there or not there. But go on… be indignant! Show us the way…

Posted by: Trubind1 | May 23 2023 23:04 utc | 235

Russia vs five-eyes. Just another day at the office – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Mjdl9d84E
Russia does not have god like powers but it’s culture is that of a scarred and battle hardened warrior. Plus they have some very good boffins.
The F-16… apart from Nato running out of soviet aircraft, the f-16 does not need mods to use Nato weaponry. Expect new wunderwuffen along with the junkyard aircraft.
What we are watching now is a game of nuclear chicken. US racing headlong at Russia like Wily E Coyote racing headlong at a cliff.
Keating had a way with words – “I wanna do you slowly” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVuJLiuo5zc
Larry Johnson’s latest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXFLjJvMrdw&t=1293s

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 23 2023 23:05 utc | 236

#218

Who leaves such an important object right next to the frontline and almost unguarded is simply unfathomable…

Bullshit. The Ukes arrived in some loaned trucks with weapons in hand and were all dead within ten kilometers and 24 hours. And all done with a small Russian swat squad trained for the purpose + tanks and air cover.
The victorious Russian security team return to base with even more weapons and some cute USA jalopies with Z freshly painted.
Security seems ok by that measure.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 23 2023 23:09 utc | 237

Bullshit. The Ukes arrived in some loaned trucks with weapons in hand and were all dead within ten kilometers and 24 hours. And all done with a small Russian swat squad trained for the purpose + tanks and air cover.
The victorious Russian security team return to base with even more weapons and some cute USA jalopies with Z freshly painted.
Security seems ok by that measure.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 23 2023 23:09 utc | 237

They got halfway. With some 100 men.
What if they attacked with a couple thousand?

Posted by: shadowbanned | May 23 2023 23:11 utc | 238

i mean who do we fight, not who nuland et al want us to fight. the people threatening our lives are the nuland crowd, and all the beltway apparatchiks in DC who stand with and enable them.
Posted by: pretzelattack | May 23 2023 22:18 utc | 214

Not sure “who do we fight” is the right question for someone 1000s of miles from the battlefield (though it of course depends on your definition of “fight”). A more appropriate question I would think is “What do I think are the rights and wrongs of the war? ”
If that was the question then I would say Russia is (to my mind) totally in the right.

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | May 23 2023 23:12 utc | 239

Sushi # 22:57 utc | 231
Perhaps Boris had been appointed Ambassador Plenipotentiary for the City of London for a period of 48 hours.
Enough to do the job and obstruct/intimidate pesky parliamentarians asking questions. But yes the UK elite is a suitable case for treatment.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 23 2023 23:15 utc | 240

Cynic #22:46 utc | 225
“Seen which General is in charge of that area?”
Could you elaborate please as I have no idea and do not follow that close.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 23 2023 23:19 utc | 241

I am the original Simplicius at MOA (since before 2019) but gladly cede that moniker to Simplicius76, whose efforts are of astonishing quality.
Like Doctorow, Helmer and others, I believe we are in a *very* dangerous period these next few weeks.
Beware assuming the F16 will be *MANNED* – the Israelis I’m pretty sure have F16s that are remotely operated.
If the famous F16s are used similar to the Strizh drones, then they have 1000km range, not 500km – a blanket saturation attack of many F16 drones at once could be the opening curtain of a larger attack with everything, including the fat lady who has not sung yet, as is probably somewhat better than her reputation. Of course, I believe the S300,S350,S400 and S500 are probably better than their reputation as well. We’ll see…
As for what this war in Ukraine seems to be about, when 300,000 soldiers have been killed, don’t think of them as Ukrainians – but rather as dead Slavs who will no longer be potential Russian soldiers. Do not underestimate the perfidy of the neo-Con Straussians. These are truly the agents of Satanic forces.

Posted by: not-THE-Simplicius | May 23 2023 23:25 utc | 242

Kupkee @ 229
Ha ha thanks for that. Blessings to you.
Raise a class of apple juice preferably from trees you planted.
Hopefully in ten years time we can all arainge a big reunion and laugh about it all. And how well it turned out.
Good night.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 23 2023 23:26 utc | 243

break — encore.
Eric Clapton Moon river Live Albert Hall May 22 2023 Jeff Beck Tribute
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1HQMqxoEJI

Posted by: Don Firineach | May 23 2023 23:27 utc | 244

Just to remind some and to get the barflies thinking, Turkey has a sizable Falcon fleet. They actually had their own production line. The first foreign manufacturer to sell to a third party, that being Egypt. Another notable achievement is that the Turks were one of the few to achieve excellence in 2 of the 5 noted “Perfect” F16s coming off any F-16 line, after post production inspection. This from an article I read a about decade ago.
Block 40/ C and D, I believe.
Chances are Russia knows a lot about this bird.
I agree with some of the crowd here that there will be a lot of QF-16s being used. I.E. remotely piloted. Pilots don’t have to be in Ukraine and even be Ukrainian!

Posted by: Cofcanuckistan | May 23 2023 23:30 utc | 245

It would be interesting to know in what capacity he made his visit. A PM free-booting in Foreign Policy? Defence Policy? With or without Cabinet discussion and agreement? It is highly likely his intervention was ultra vires. In most Parliamentary democracies if you act without appropriate prior legal authority you expose yourself to legal liability.
Posted by: Sushi | May 23 2023 22:57 utc | 231

In a world where rules are made and applied without fear or favour I would agree with you but that shower in London have been ignoring niceties like rules or laws for a long time now. And when they are found out … meh – no real sanctions …
Priti Patel out: Theresa May forces International Development Secretary to quit over secret Israeli meetings
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/priti-patel-sacked-quits-theresa-may-fired-cabinet-israel-meetings-international-development-secretary-a8044166.html
So having been sacked for effectively conducting shadow foreign policy whilst in office without informing the actual Prime Minister, 18 months later she was back in the cabinet appointed by non other than Boris himself.

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | May 23 2023 23:33 utc | 246

Bahkmut – Verdun, if the Germans had won.
The clowns at the transparently silly G7 and their F16 hilarity.
Anyone remember Pete Seeger in 1967 (6 months before Tet).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXnJVkEX8O4

Posted by: Hoggy | May 23 2023 23:34 utc | 247

@ karlof1 | May 23 2023 23:02 utc | 234
re: Sincerity being synonymous with truthful, honest, etc., which happens only on very rare occasions.
sincere: free from pretense or deceit; proceeding from genuine feelings.
One can argue that the US throughout history has been genuine in expressing US exceptionalism. It’s said the “American exceptionalism is the belief that the United States is either distinctive, unique, or exemplary compared to other nations.” This belief has resulted in aggression against countless people and countries, starting with the native Americans and more recently with Chinese and China (and others).
It’s American Exceptionalism which is driving the hatred of China into sanctions and other violations of world trade standards. It’s just not right for such inferior people to wear the US mantel of world leader, Washington sincerely believes that. Now China has to put its thinking cap on — as my first grade teacher sometimes said — and realize that the US is sincere about its hatred of others, and Beijing could then act accordingly.

Posted by: Don Bacon | May 23 2023 23:34 utc | 248

not-THE-Simplicius | May 23 2023 23:25 utc | 242
Aw man. I was typing while you posted. Another reason I don’t post often. I usually think of replying then read further down someone comes to the same conclusion.
Cheers

Posted by: Cofcanuckistan | May 23 2023 23:38 utc | 249

@238 it would be a disaster for russia if a couple thousand went in.
However can ukraine amass that without attracting long range russian weapons. Lots of artillery and air strikes along that border already, who knows what they’ve stopped?
At any rate more attacks will happen now, the front may even be restarted there with a total war declaration.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | May 23 2023 23:40 utc | 250

TWO FYIs: First, Putin is to speak at the plenary session of the Second Eurasian Economic Forum, this year’s theme being, “Eurasian integration in a multipolar world.”
And second is this interesting bit of conversation yesterday between Putin and President of the Constitutional Court Valery Zorkin:

Vladimir Zorkin: But I would like to take this opportunity to say that the Constitutional Court has found a copy of the map of the 17th century, drawn up under Louis XIV, that is, it is the middle, even the beginning of the second half of the 17th century, drawn up by the French themselves. Why did I bring her? Vladimir Vladimirovich, there is no Ukraine there.
Vladimir Putin:Yes, of course.
Vladimir Zorkin: There is no Ukraine. There are two places in the region-the territory of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the territory of the Cossacks. And the great kingdom of Russia.
Why did I still risk showing you [the map]? Because there was a lot of speculation about where the origins are, where, how and what was formed.
Vladimir Putin: Well, we know that these lands were just part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and then they asked to be part of the Moscow Tsardom, that’s all, and ended up as part of the Moscow Tsardom. And only later, after the October Revolution, all sorts of quasi-state entities began to form, and the Soviet government created the Soviet Ukraine. This is well known to everyone. Before that, there was no Ukraine in the history of mankind.
Vladimir Zorkin: I didn’t tell you this because all the judges of the Constitutional Court have been brought to criminal responsibility in Ukraine…
Vladimir Putin: Yes?
Vladimir Zorkin: … for our decisions of 2014 and in connection with the CBO, but for the sake of truth, so to speak.
Vladimir Putin: It’s clear. One of the documents, of course. Where is it published? French map? Is it stored in the archive?
Vladimir Zorkin: Yes. This is a copy, the original is in France, in the Louvre.
And here is a brief summary [of the map] – there are errors here.
Vladimir Putin: Yes, of course, not all the territories of Soviet Ukraine were included in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but only the north-western part.
Vladimir Zorkin: Of course, that’s why I said that here [in the abstract] the editorial approach is slightly incorrect. Translation errors.
The most important thing is that it was not us who did it, but the French.
Vladimir Putin:Yes, of course. On the map marked what was in life, on earth.
V. Zorkin: This was already the case during the reign of the Romanov dynasty.
Vladimir Putin: It’s clear. Thank you very much.

As with us historians, lawyers and jurists absolutely love original documents. I found the entire context of the conversation very curious as just prior to that they talk about the recent challenges posed by what Zorkin terms “artificial paternity” and Putin clarifies as “In Vitro fertilization.” As some will recall, I’ve recently been describing Ukraine as an artificial entity having no prior historical basis of existence. IMO, what’s being suggested is a legal case arguing for Russian paternity of what became Ukraine based on the French map showing its lack of historical existence. Do recall Putin was trained as a Lawyer and has always kept in-tune with legality.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 23 2023 23:41 utc | 251

uncle tungsten | May 23 2023 23:19 utc | 241
“Seen which General is in charge of that area?”
*** Could you elaborate please as I have no idea and do not follow that close.***
It would seem to be General Lapin, controversial earlier in the war for withdrawing the Russian Army from liberated locations in the Kharkiv area.

Posted by: Cynic | May 23 2023 23:43 utc | 252

@ SattaMassaGana | May 23 2023 22:58 utc | 232
its often very hard to see the reasons behind what transpires on the battle field so all we can do theorise then wait to see if our theories hold true.
Rightly said so.
Assumptions. Tragedy is that we react to Carl Rowe’s theorem of the USA creating new realities all the time, and we discuss those while they move to create another one.
As here on this old and respected MoA we discuss F-16 as it is a Vorlon Fighter ship, while UK is looking as a D-Day Air assault springboard with all the air activity over there. Romania seems the same with the stack of Apaches running the long-range fire missions 24/7.
ISR AWACS are hidden now, but they are there above the Black Sea and omnipresent. All of them Swedes, Italians, Polish, Brits, French, Dutch US plus many Eurofighters and F-xx of all types and varieties.
ATACAMS rolling in Ukraine as we write here, and all the Western/NATO lies, and the deceits are in the open. And little do we know.
I wonder what escalation really means, and looks further down the road?

Posted by: whirlX | May 23 2023 23:43 utc | 253

What if they attacked with a couple thousand?
Posted by: shadowbanned | May 23 2023 23:11 utc | 238
Well a couple of thousand western proxies would have been killed. Ease up on the estrogen.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 23 2023 23:49 utc | 254

@238
well, that’s the point isn’t it? Those few thousand were not and are not available.
So, futile PR exercise with 15 seconds of glory for Ukrainian media and endless mourning for the families of the slain soldiers. However much criticism you can have for Russian Command, you cannot but admit that Ukrainan Command’s orders are pretty disgusting, cruel, without any conscience.
In Langley, they have a wall with the pictures of their dead operatives (heroes, aren’t they, no?). They will never build a wall long enough for all the foreigners that died through their machinations, nor would they ever care about it.

Posted by: Anthony | May 23 2023 23:50 utc | 255

Posted by: oldhippie | May 23 2023 16:35 utc | 45
Posted by: Quid Me Vexare | May 23 2023 17:20 utc | 80
Posted by: Leser | May 23 2023 16:48 utc | 59
Posted by: Perimetr | May 23 2023 17:35 utc | 86
Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | May 23 2023 17:36 utc | 87
There is an interesting wrinkle to the Fetesti to Sebastopol mission.
NATO Charter Article 6 states:
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

Neither the Black Sea nor the Baltic receive a mention. The NATO members have ignored other aspects of the Charter they claim to operate under so this legal point may be moot.
I would feel much safer if Sergey Lavrov drew the world’s attention to the fact that aircraft operating over the Black Sea against the Russian Federation render themselves co-belligerents unable to invoke the protections of NATO Article 5.
I recognize this is a John Choon Yoo level of legalism but making public an “open season” for warbirds over the Black Sea may result in the return of rational self-interest.

Posted by: Sushi | May 23 2023 23:53 utc | 256

@ not-THE-Simplicius | May 23 2023 23:25 utc | 242
Simplicius at MOA (since before 2019) but gladly cede that moniker to Simplicius76
They are many and you are the one.
I remember you. I also used to write here sometimes even before 2014 but forgot my handle.
So I made a new one and have more time now.
These are truly the agents of Satanic forces.
Oh yes – very dangerous crowd. Hard, but not impossible to defeat.
Them will be gone, I am assured of it.

Posted by: whirlX | May 23 2023 23:58 utc | 257

Mark2 @ 130
Will attempt to answer your question. Though I may not get there, hard to tell if your ignorance is total or feigned.
US has one and only one tactic for the application of air power. It is civilian terror bombing. Large scale civilian terror bombing is called strategic bombing.
If there are specific military targets and specific goals it could be possible to get something done, achieve some end, with small measured application of air power. That is not the usual way. In Libya in 2011 NATO flew 26,000 sorties, of which 7,000 were bombing runs and achieved basically nothing. This was going up against a Libyan Air Force that had three semi-functional older Su-24 and Su-25, with minimal maintenance facilities, a handful of small jet trainers, some with .50caliber machine guns mounted, and otherwise Qadaffi’s personal antique collection. Basically no air defense at all.
The 50 F-16s are not going to fly 7000 bombing runs. If any get past Russian AD long enough to do anything it will be terror bombing and PR stunts. US leaders still imagine PR stunts are a substitute for military action

Posted by: oldhippie | May 24 2023 0:01 utc | 258

What an interesting and informative thread today by the Posters. Anyway, having also just listened to the Duran, AC and AM at the Duran and read other articles it has struck me forcefully now, following the G7 Meeting, UVL’s diatribe and Jungle Josep Borrel’s rants about not being able to ‘punish’ India and Sunak’s verbal diahorreoa about China I am aghast at the gross idiocy and incompetence of the G7 Leaders. I like George Galloway’s dubbing them as the ‘7 Dwarves’ highly appropriate only the 7 Dwarves were far more intelligent, humane and insightful than the G7 rent-a-mob.
There can be no doubt now that there has been a total flight from reality by the collective West Leaders. They are, quite literally, insane and with a serious psychosis. They are so drunk with their own delusions of their own power over the world they have acquired seriously Messianic tendencies. Zelensky has now outrun Hitler at least Hitler had some Plan however grandiose it was. Zelensky just has a brutal hold on the citizens of Ukraine, continual and never ending Martial Law to control and restrict the Citizens and an unbelievably brutal SBU. BTW, I am in doubt whatsoever that Zaluzhny has, since April, been detained by the SBU, was physically brutalised and without doubt, now dead. The fact is, neither Zelensky or his loosely called ‘Government’ cannot produce Zaluzhny anywhere. The Skripals were dealt the same ‘punishment’. They have not been heard or seen from since. They too are clearly dead. Zelensky has been built up by the collective West as a Hero who is defending and protecting his country. Yet for 8yrs the ethnic Russians in the East have been blocked from food, water and necessary commodities, have been tortured, executed, burned alive in Mariupol and Odessa, women raped and tortured and other serious war crimes (Source: lauren Brayard French Journalist, substantial evidence) and the West just looked the other way. He is now being touted as a Hero when he is in fact a highly dangerous Narcissist, a brutal tyrant in the real sense of the word who has sent most Ukrainian men to the front knowing they will die whilst the rich and elite of Ukraine’s own sons are protected from service. I guess if these are the ‘Western Values’ the EU talks about then boy, please people of France, lead us into a revolution in the countries of the EU and USA.
These Leaders have now seriously crossed the path from reason and rationality to true insanity. I cannot believe the rhetoric they are coming out with about India, China, Russia and other ‘hostile’ countries.
Please President Putin and Xijing Ping, take the lot of them out and restore the world to peace, prosperity and progress.

Posted by: Jo Dominich | May 24 2023 0:01 utc | 259

Morons still arguing over F-16s having any significant effect on the war.
As for G force:
What’s it like to pull 9Gs in an F-16? A fighter pilot weighs in
https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/g-forces-and-fighter-pilots-whats-it-like-to-pull-9gs/
Another source I found said 9gs would be tolerated for a couple of seconds because at that rate there’s no blood going to your brain – sort of like being blood-choked out in BJJ.
Not that it’s going to matter. Russia can shoot down these jets before the pilots even see the missiles except for the last few seconds. Maneuvering won’t help you because there’s probably more than one missile coming, especially if it’s coming from an air defense system.
Here is how the F-16 fared in Iraq:
How one F-16 dodged 6 surface-to-air missiles in an airstrike gone wrong
https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/how-one-f-16-dodged-6-surface-to-air-missiles-in-an-airstrike-gone-wrong/
And that was dodging ancient Soviet SAMs from the 1950’s!
Interesting addendum from Martyanov’s video yesterday, he quoted an article that explained what happened after Iran hit those US bases in Iraq with missiles. What was unreported is that the US intended to retaliate with an air strike. Iran used a radar system similar to the Russian Resonance to pick up and track the US flight, then called the US flight and reported their range, speed and bearing and informed them that Iran was developing a firing solution. The US called off the attack.
So much for Trump “avoiding war with Iran.” He backed down because Iran explicitly told the US that one single missile landing on an empty Iranian beach would result in a full-scale Iran retaliation. And now we have this report about the US back down.
I, too, expect the F-16s will be flown by other than Ukrainian pilots, regardless of how many months they are allegedly “trained”. Doesn’t matter. They will be shot down. Martyanov is entirely correct when he says no US pilot has ever fought against a serious modern air defense, at least since Vietnam – where the US lost 2,251 aircraft: 1,737 to hostile action, and 514 in accidents. 2,197 of the losses were fixed-wing, and the remainder rotary-wing, including 31 B-52s.
Idiots who think Russia will be significantly affected by a handful of F-16s are delusional.
The notion that NATO will attack Crimea by air under cover of an “exercise” is also delusional. This is not how wars are fought, and only morons would think otherwise (that includes Helmer).
Someone above suggested that if Ukraine flies an F-16 during the exercise and Russia shoots at it and hits a NATO plane from the exercise that this would trigger “Article 5”. Not going to happen. First, Russia isn’t going to miss and hit a plane scores or hundreds of miles away. Second, Turkey – and probably several other NATO members – won’t allow Article 5 to be invoked under such conditions. Article 4 is the more dangerous article, but that merely allows NATO countries already spoiling for war to get involved. It would take months to invoke given NATO’s fractious state at the moment.
And who cares? It has been demonstrated many times that NATO is incapable of defeating Russia on any battlefield (except maybe Syria). NATO simply doesn’t have the means.
As for the US training Ukrainian pilots to drop nuclear bombs, that is delusional as well. First, Russian intelligence would know if a nuclear device were loaded on any aircraft headed for Ukraine, and it would never arrive. You can’t hide that stuff. Second, first use by Ukraine of a nuclear device would raise such geopolitical hell around the world that the war would end the next day; even the US couldn’t prevent it. Trying to blame Russia for the detonation would fail since such devices have signatures which would be quickly confirmed as not a Russian device. Not that it would matter, Russia would immediately obliterate what was left of Ukraine with its own convention weapons (and possibly nukes) and then go to the Russian equivalent of Defcon One. Over to you, Biden…
This is all bullshit from morons without a clue. Pointless speculation eating up 257 posts.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 24 2023 0:03 utc | 260

Those comments here regarding the unmanned or drone capabilities of the F-16. I am not up to researching that now, but assuming that is correct, we have to go back to Syria and Putin giving the commanders in theater the discretion of destroying launch point of whatever directly attacked Russian forces in Syria.
Putin has said that the F-16’s would be an escalation.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 24 2023 0:05 utc | 261

Jo Dominich | May 24 2023 0:01 utc | 259
A bit of competition between US and UK in Ukraine. UK backs Snowman and US backs Zaluzhny.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 24 2023 0:12 utc | 262

Don Firineach #22:59 utc | 233
Mighty good.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 24 2023 0:17 utc | 263

aircraft operating over the Black Sea against the Russian Federation render themselves co-belligerents unable to invoke the protections of NATO Article 5
Why would one even pay attention to one’s direct and agreement-incapable enemy’s Article whatever thing? They can write what they want.
RF doesn’t intend to hit anyone outside of Ukraine because they are legally bound not to do it by the very definition of SMO. I think only President plus ministers can exclude this barrier and approve it if needed.
If RF proclaims the war, then they would do their portion of claypidgeoning around there, do not worry about it.
But indeed, ISR and AWACS could be pushed a bit further over the Black Sea, sure. RF has 70 miles NOTAM already in force around Crimea there.
I think it is not sufficient. And what about the Snake Island? Just let it go like that?
However, I think Odesa will be in a crosshair really soon, so that pushes NATO pretty far away from their must-have Crimea.

Posted by: whirlX | May 24 2023 0:17 utc | 264

Well I did a search for f16 remote control and derivatives and all that came up were model aircraft. It occurred to me how can a remote operator have anywhere near the control that a real pilot would. If it’s just up to lob a few missiles in donbass direction it will be shot down anyway. The s300 in service have a range of 400km.

Posted by: Oh | May 24 2023 0:20 utc | 265

Posted by: karlof1 | May 23 2023 17:39 utc | 90
The answer to Sushi’s question is the clergyman has weapons in his arsenal capable of defeating those in the psychopath’s, while the psychopath essentially has none despite the decades of bluster and destruction visited on helpless nations.
Thanks Karl. I had not thought of that interpretation. To expand on my understanding of your response:
The arsenal available to the clergyman contains “moral” weapons – issues of character and integrity, the capacity to be a reliable partner and ally as opposed to the rapacious, capricious, self interested mendacity of the psychopath. Pompeo’s evident pride in his “We lie cheat and steal” boast is a demonstration of how the US has descended into the gutter as opposed to a position of principled statesmanship i.e. Sergey Lavrov.
It is this principled position of the RF, the legal concerns, the slo-mo, that bothers many; but these elements represent the genuine strengths of the Russians. This is what draws in and cements the relationship with the Global South – the potential for a respectful relation between peers vs Shock and Awe exploitative nihilism masquerading as “American Exeptionalism” that will ultimately speed the decline of the hegemon. It is the story of Gulliver and the Lilliputians. The meek shall inherit the earth.
And it is reflected in a Hollywood joke – “If you want to succeed in Hollywood you need to be sincere. If you can fake that you’ve got it made”
Cheers!

Posted by: Sushi | May 24 2023 0:21 utc | 266

Old hippy @ 258
Ha ha ha your ignorance seems the real problem, not mine.
You still didnt address the question I asked.
Not a mention of NATO or a full on NATO attack.
You seem fixated on bloody f16’s
Forget the dam things.
Now go back and try again.
Jeez.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 24 2023 0:24 utc | 267

Assumptions. Tragedy is that we react to Carl Rowe’s theorem of the USA creating new realities all the time, and we discuss those while they move to create another one…
Posted by: whirlX | May 23 2023 23:43 utc | 253

I was never one for Carl Rove. Always thought he had his head up his own posterior and he enjoyed the smell. I dislike him and his ilk.
That quote from Rove about creating new realities is (in my opinion) bull. Its along the lines of Musk’s “We are America, we coup who we want. Deal with it”. Its based wholly on their own over inflated opinion of themselves and their intellectual (and military) clout.
As their military might falters so too does their ability to spin a new “reality” (in other words a new lie)
Like most of the illusionary smoke and mirrors, as a theory its only truly effective if you buy into it. Once you do then it becomes self fulfilling and you are forever behind always trying to catch up whilst they spin a new “reality”.
The paradigm has changed and for all their intellectual clout its changing without them.

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | May 24 2023 0:24 utc | 268

karlof1 | May 23 2023 23:41 utc | 251
I have a map somewhere, at my VK showing the overlay of the Polish Lithuanian on Kievan Rus. The section Lithuania controlled is now Belorussia, and section Poland controlled is now Ukraine.
The CIA map for insurgency was interesting as it covered exactly the same areas that at some point had been under Polish control. That was all marked in grey. Galicia which had come under Austrian control was marked in black as the hotbed of insurgency. The hotbed of Nazi extremism.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 24 2023 0:25 utc | 269

Paul Damascene | May 23 2023 16:00 utc | 31
…”planning to fight Russia for 8 years
– Ukraine trained and equipped to USNATO “standards”
– Why the go-slow escalator slide up the escalation ladder”?

Yes. USNATO planned a war against Russia in Ukraine for 8 years.
In Feb 2022 Russia *finally* gave them a war in Ukraine
oooops. The war Russia is *finally* giving them is not the war they planned
The Sanctions From Hell™️ were going to crumpled Russia in 6weeks, 10,absolute tops.
That the Sanctions is Hell™️ have failed is why they are flailing around looking for a wundaweapon.
Just likes they fantastically fails with the Sanctions From Hell™️, they are convinced each new wundaweapon will have the one that does trick.
They don’t have the weapons or capacity for this war because it’s not the war they spent 8 years planning, dreaming, salivating for.
Another point. The war they are now fighting against Russia in Ukraine is a politician’s war. The politicians emasculated their militaries, at least since Obama. The politicians now have the militaries they created. Soft. Compliant. Controlled. Yes sir, yes sir yes sir absolutely sir.
Any military guy with a military mind and a military understanding of history and a military understanding of fighting Russia in Ukraine has long since been pensioned out.
This is a twitter war. With your Kofmans, Rob Lee, Michael McFaul twittttttering away, the NAFO shiba inu accounts echoing, and the politicians doing what politicians do…. Caving cravenly to popular pressure.
Someone in the twitterverse identifies a wundaweapon. The tweets escalate for its provision to Ukraine. Ukraine government cries, Zelensky uses his “star power”, and the politicians cave.
The military guys at the top do their political masters bidding. And somewhere down the line a smart, but powerless 1-2 star goes WTAF???
The war against Russia in Ukraine is not a well conceived military campaign.
It’s personal… Biden to protect his galactic corruption in Ukraine.
Other politicians and State Dept with an aligned agenda.
We’re dealing with spoilt career politicians who’ve never really ever been told “no”. The decisions they are making are puerile and inept because they are puerile and inept.
They are solving the problem they created the way they solve all problems they create….. by doubling down and thinking they have the positional power to crush their opponent.
They genuinely think they will bully Russia into capitulation, the way they’ve spent their entire lives bullying any and all opposition into capitulation.

Posted by: Melaleuca | May 24 2023 0:25 utc | 270

As with us historians, lawyers and jurists absolutely love original documents. I found the entire context of the conversation very curious as just prior to that they talk about the recent challenges posed by what Zorkin terms “artificial paternity” and Putin clarifies as “In Vitro fertilization.” As some will recall, I’ve recently been describing Ukraine as an artificial entity having no prior historical basis of existence. IMO, what’s being suggested is a legal case arguing for Russian paternity of what became Ukraine based on the French map showing its lack of historical existence. Do recall Putin was trained as a Lawyer and has always kept in-tune with legality.
Posted by: karlof1 | May 23 2023 23:41 utc | 251

They can’t do that, unfortunately, because the USSR collapse created a nearly impossible to resolve by simple legal declarations situation.
The original treaty was signed by Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and the Transcaucasian SSRs.
Transcaucasian SSRs was later split into Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan in the 1930s, and also in the 1930s, the five *-stans were created. During WWII they added Moldova and the Baltics.
Then when the USSR collapsed, a key legal moment was the Belovezha Accords. By that time lots of republics had declared independence anyway, but that is what made it official. That was signed by only Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, as the original union treaty signatories, while the Transcaucasian SSRs was no more.
There are two obvious legal moves now — one is to derecognize the whole of Ukraine, the other to denounce the Belovezha Accords. But what happens after that?
If you do either of those things, then it does not apply just to Ukraine. Denouncing Belovezha very obviously so, but even if it was just derecognizing Ukraine, all the other republics will be extremely alarmed by it too. And right now only one of them is a reliable ally — Belarus — and even it might have a problem with something like this (although presumably denouncing Belovezha could be done jointly by Russia and Belarus within the Union State framework). Local elites care about protecting their current oligarchic structures and privileges first, they are not at all excited about the vision of resurrecting the USSR, in which they might again be a part of real superpower, which would be good for everyone, but their personal power will decrease.
We have endlessly discussed the strategic reasons for the SMO, but the strategic threat that Ukraine represents is actually lesser than the potential strategic threat that flipping the *-stans, and especially Kazakhstan represents. Kazakhstan is right there across the border from the most critical Russian strategic sites, and there is a reason the US has been trying to flip it so hard. There is also very nasty local anti-Russian nationalism brewing there too. It will have to be eventually recovered somehow, but one has to be very careful about how it’s done.
China has it easy with Taiwan — it is just one breakaway province. But Russia has more than a dozen of these, and it is trapped in not being able to deal with even one of them too openly because then the others will become openly hostile (or even more hostile than they already are).
P.S. If Ukraine is a fake made up country, just think about the *-stans. Ukrainian nationalism at least started in some form in the 19th century, but the *-stans are almost entirely Soviet creations. The classic example is how current Kazakhstan, before it became an SSR, was called the “Kirghiz ASSR” in the early 1920s, and was then renamed to Kazakh ASSR and eventually elevated to an SSR. But meanwhile the other Kirghiz ASSR/SSR was established, and it is now Kyrgyzstan. That tells you how clearly separated those “nations” were back then.

Posted by: shadowbanned | May 24 2023 0:26 utc | 271

Side show Bob had it right @105
———-
And you RSH dont be a bloody moron.
Nah only joking.
Nice explanation…..
So NATO attacks Russia in two weeks then.
Good night all

Posted by: Mark2 | May 24 2023 0:36 utc | 272

Hoggy #23:34 utc | 247 thanks
and thanks to Cynic #252
Is Zelensky back in his ‘Kiev’ and has the replacement commander been announced or is it proving difficult to resurrect Westmoreland in time for ‘success’?

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 24 2023 0:39 utc | 273

Posted by: Andrei | May 23 2023 18:29 utc | 115
Now that the war is over I wonder how long before air travel resumes in Ukraine?
Short haul intercity flights resume in two weeks. Cramped rear seating, hand baggage only. Canopy sealing is poor and the pilot has been replaced by an AI doofus. The experience will last a lifetime.

Posted by: Sushi | May 24 2023 0:41 utc | 274

News seen just now: “F-16 fighter jet deliveries to Ukraine are planned for the long term, not for upcoming offensive operations – Pentagon”
It could be a sign of conflict between different factions in Washington. Whatever will be put into action, the MIC will use the F-16 saga to keep the product roadmap alive and order flow robust.
Posted by: Leser | May 23 2023 19:16 utc | 133
————————————————————————————————
Do not underestimate the perfidy of the neo-Con Straussians. These are truly the agents of Satanic forces.
Posted by: not-THE-Simplicius | May 23 2023 23:25 utc | 242
———————————————————————————–
Oh yes – very dangerous crowd. Hard, but not impossible to defeat.
Them will be gone, I am assured of it.
Posted by: whirlX | May 23 2023 23:58 utc | 257
———————————————————————
I never thought that the Pentago was in favor of the Ukrainian misadventure. The single most important part of a military career is to get promoted, and retire. NATO offers more grazing grounds to that purpose. Donating your own body parts does not. Those pesky civilians and politicians are dangerous. You have to kiss their butt, get funded and please the ungrateful bastards.
Kabuki theatre and shadow boxing are great theatrics. If there is no enemy what is the point of a military?
How it ends is not clear to me. The F-16 ‘wunderwaffe’ diversion is just more entertainment, after Zelensky insisted on them. In the US, in the long run, Wallstreet plays a major role. I have no clue what is playing out.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | May 24 2023 0:44 utc | 275

Sushi @ 275
Sounds like Quantas

Posted by: aristodemos | May 24 2023 0:55 utc | 276

RSH@260….anyone paying attention to reports from the front, Russians, Wagner and Militias all talk of enemy air craft delivering strikes on their positions, the planes may well be shot down but they will have delivered their payload before hand. Russia does not have air supremacy, or total control over the entire Ukrainian air space. Russia will have similar issues as NATO, once you turn on your radar, y’is be naked!
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | May 24 2023 0:56 utc | 277

Had been a good thread but the username troll is back
Hackman – you begin your bullshit thusley “Morons still arguing over F-16s having any significant effect on the war.”
You sure have a nasty streak.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 24 2023 1:05 utc | 278

@ bevin | May 23 2023 21:41 utc | 195
not exactly what you were asking for, but you and others might find it rewarding to read regardless..
Sowing Seeds of Plunder: A Lose-Lose Situation in Ukraine

Posted by: james | May 24 2023 1:08 utc | 279

Posted by: shadowbanned | May 24 2023 0:26 utc | 271
ВИА Песняры- Беловежская пуща ( 1979 )( VIA Pesnyary- Belovezhskaya Pushcha )
Dime in the jukebox. I love this song. Nazarbayev bailed on showing up when Yeltsin, Kravchuk and Shushkevic decided to pull the plug. Good move on his part.
Thanks everyone!

Posted by: lex talionis | May 24 2023 1:08 utc | 280

On Zorkin’s mysterious statement: Since Zorkin didn’t elaborate further, the key to the mystery is in these two sentences:

V. Zorkin: This was already the case during the reign of the Romanov dynasty.
Vladimir Putin: It’s clear. Thank you very much.

IMO, Zorkin clarified something of importance to Putin, but what exactly? The clue as I’ve said is in the previous context. The “stans” weren’t artificial formations as argued @271, all were incorporated as Great Russian lands and none existed in their present form in 1914 or 1918. IMO, the Chief Justice of Russia’s Constitutional Court would know all of Russia’s Constitutions going back to the changes made in 1905 when the Tsar established a rudimentary Constitutional Monarchy formed as a quasi-republic with a legislature, and he has conducted inquiries requested by Putin. I base my speculation on portions of speeches Putin has delivered since 4 Feb 2022 as well as conversations he’s conducted with other government members. To what purpose? IMO, to grant the Ukie government’s wish to be de-Communized since Ukraine was born via the Communist Revolution and gained its newest lands while a member of the USSR. That would imply some back-channel negotiations with several of Ukraine’s neighbors that lost territory after WW2. And yes, this would also be related to how to end the SMO.
As with everything related to the SMO, time will tell whether my speculation is close to being correct.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 24 2023 1:09 utc | 281

Peter AU1 | May 23 2023 23:05 utc | 236
Thanks for that Peter AU. I like Judge Napolitano. He asks the right questions and keeps his ego out of it. Larry Johnson was good too.

Posted by: dh | May 24 2023 1:09 utc | 282

Hackman, perhaps | May 24 2023 0:30 utc | 272 is you, perhaps it is someone else. Time will tell.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 24 2023 1:10 utc | 283

1) Is it possible that US and its allies are going to give older or almost out of service F-16 to Ukraine?
They are certainly not going to give modern jets until a replacement arrives.
2) An artillery piece is not very expensive but lose of a single jet is going to cause a huge drop in PR. USA is very reluctant to send Abrahamas tanks.
3) Russia for decades has been preparing for this scenario. Every single air defense system is designed to counter these aircrafts.They have been taken back by drones but an aircraft is an easy prey for Russian Air defense.
4) M777 has to be send to Poland for repair & maintenance. What will happen to F16?

Posted by: Ankit Khandelwal | May 24 2023 1:11 utc | 284

Nato can barely cobble two artillery shells and they are going to intervene? Stupid fuc_ing morons.

Posted by: morongobill | May 24 2023 1:12 utc | 285

Sushi | May 24 2023 0:21 utc | 266–
Thanks for your reply! Yes, the truth can be a very powerful weapon. Today a saying by China’s Foreign Ministry Spokesman Wang Wenbin was posted at Global South:
“When the shadow of the US shrinks, the light of peace spreads.”
100% correct!

Posted by: karlof1 | May 24 2023 1:14 utc | 286

So when these planes fall from the sky like rain will they deny the footage is real like they are doing with the american sponsored terrorist attach today? CLOWNS!

Posted by: nook | May 24 2023 1:17 utc | 287

Some videos for today.
Refugee from Artemovsk reveals how Kiev regime abducted children:
https://odysee.com/@SputnikInternational:c/RefugeeArtemovsk:1
Russian MoD shares footage of counter terrorism operation in Belgorod oblast:
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/belgorod:c7
The Russian Defense Ministry has released footage showing the remains of a Banderite terrorist group force after heavy fighting with Russian troops (in Belgorod oblast):
https://odysee.com/@SputnikInternational:c/%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4:8
Civilians injured by Kiev regime drone bombing hours after Banderite terrorist attack on Belgorod oblast:
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/belgorod-attack:a
Russian self-propelled howitzer working on the enemy near Artemovsk:
https://odysee.com/@SputnikInternational:c/2S5GiatsintS:f
Russian artillery pounds enemy position:
https://rutube.ru/video/0d95ac3cbe72a1859d62f3d53f60a710/
Russian Ka-52 conducts airstrike:
https://rutube.ru/video/ce81f0175de89b8b67e13fe4b512195b/

Posted by: Nate | May 24 2023 1:18 utc | 288

at the very start of the SMO articles about ukies training on A10 simulators was about. so training whether kn f16 or anything has occured for over a year. notice we dont hear A10 mentioned now as they are established as slow needing full air cover and zero AD
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukrainian-fighter-pilots-are-training-on-diy-a-10-warthog-simulators

Posted by: hankster | May 24 2023 1:18 utc | 289

karlof1 | May 24 2023 1:09 utc | 282
Putin said that if Ukraine wished to be de-communised then Russia would do it. De-militarization. de-nazification, de-communization.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 24 2023 1:18 utc | 290

“They got halfway. With some 100 men.
What if they attacked with a couple thousand?”
Then there would be 1000 Ukranian corpses lying in Belgorod.

Posted by: Comandante | May 24 2023 1:25 utc | 291

“…What if they attacked with a couple thousand?…” shadowbanned@238
The more of them that there are the quicker they will be seen and dealt with. There is a reason why raids are so small- big ones are simply attacks with inadequate resources.

Posted by: bevin | May 24 2023 1:34 utc | 292

simple answer…………..
follow the money…… that explains a lot..

Posted by: james | May 24 2023 1:57 utc | 293

Why didn’t they attack with a couple thousand? Because they don’t have a couple thousand to spare? Because they couldn’t get that many to do a virtual suicide mission? Because they don’t have equipment especially tanks to spare?
The whole thing is desperate and pathetic. It’s just more throwing away Ukraine lives for almost nothing.

Posted by: Eighthman | May 24 2023 1:58 utc | 294

james #1:08 utc | 280
Thank you heaps for that link Sowing Seeds of Plunder: A Lose-Lose Situation in Ukraine”
Here is the academic home station of the author:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/food-dispossession-dependency-resisting-new-world-order/5770468

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 24 2023 2:07 utc | 295

Comandante #1:25 utc | 292
:))

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 24 2023 2:08 utc | 296

Sushi | May 23 2023 15:28 utc | 11
Thank you, that was lovely.

Posted by: MilaP | May 24 2023 2:09 utc | 297

“Unbelievable, yet, why not? It is being reported that the Americans will train F-16 pilots to deploy B61 nuclear bombs.”
Exactly. Why go through this melodrama if you are not going to go out with a bang? It is not as if a nuclear strike had not been practiced against St Petersburg just before Finland joined the club.

Posted by: Jonathan W | May 24 2023 2:09 utc | 298

Posted by: Sushi | May 23 2023 15:28 utc | 11
Sign me up for Sushi bromance/lovefest.
I’m not worried about the psychopath with the nukes. There are minders on the sideline doing their best to derail the crazy train.
I do wish, the Russians start trolling NATO by asking why only F16 and not F35? Are they even serious about trying to “contain” Russia?

Posted by: Suresh | May 24 2023 2:15 utc | 299

who needs RF air defence to take out jets when USAF has bases in known cyclone areas. how many billions in damage in this one event
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-one-hurricane-knocked-17-mighty-f-22-raptors-out-action-34037

Posted by: hankster | May 24 2023 2:15 utc | 300