Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 23, 2023
F-16s To Ukraine

A few days ago U.S. President Joe Biden announced the training of Ukrainian pilots for the F-16 multirole fighter aircraft:

President Joe Biden told G7 leaders on Friday that the US would join in efforts to train Ukraine’s pilots on fourth generation fighter jets including the F-16s, a senior administration official told CNN on Friday.

This has obviously been in the planning for some time. The timing of the announcement at the G7 summit was simply chosen to maximize the propaganda value for Biden.

The process we have seen has repeated itself again and again. As pro-Ukrainian blogger (with no military knowledge) describes it:

This has clearly become a proxy war between Russia and NATO, supercharging the political considerations inherent to any war. Ukraine’s goal is to wheedle as much military aid as humanly possibly out of NATO, especially the United States. The United States’ goal is more complex: give enough aid to push Russia back, but not so much that its proxy war with Russia escalates into an actual one.

This dynamic has created a Hunger Games scenario where Ukraine is constantly playing to the cameras to cajole extra gifts from the wealthy sponsors who watch its every move over the internet in real time. I had decided against using this analogy until I saw Ukrainians themselves using it. There is something grotesque and sobering about finding yourself in this position, and writing about it. But it is what it is.

I had assumed that F-16 training had in fact already started several weeks back. The EU blabber mouth Josep Borrell now all but confirmed it:

The European Union’s foreign policy chief said on Tuesday that the US green light to allow Ukrainian pilots to get training to fly F-16s has created an inexorable momentum that will inevitably bring the fighter jets to the Ukrainian battlefield.

Borrell added that training for Ukrainian pilots had already begun in Poland and some other countries, though authorities in Warsaw could not immediately confirm the news. The Netherlands and Denmark, among others, are also making plans for such training.

No decision on actually delivering fourth-generation fighter jets has been taken yet, but training pilots now – a process that takes several months – will help speed up battle readiness once a formal decision is made.

The process will be much faster than many assume.

The jets the Ukraine will get have already been selected and will go through ready maintenance. The Ukrainian pilots, who already have some experience on other fighter jets, will get just a short introduction course – six to eight weeks or even less. They do not need to train air to air fights because the F-16 would lose any such fight against the newer and better armed Russian jets. They just need to learn the basics, starting, landing, going up to a certain height and launch point, release whatever long range weapon will be on board. Anything else would be suicide.

The big question is where to start and land from. The F-16 has a relative short combat range of some 500 kilometer and there will be no air to air tankers. There ain't that many airfield that are suitable for the fighter jet's missions.

Someone who seems competent explains the problem (edited):

The Ukrainian Air Force, to my knowledge, has had to use guerilla airfield tactics to keep the Russians guessing as to where they are operating from. This is to prevent Moscow from targeting the aircraft/impromptu airfield from drone attacks and air strikes, destroying stationary aircraft or the rendering the “runway” unusable. Soviet-built aircraft are sublimely suited to this.

For ex, the MiG-29 “Fulcrum” uses automatic Foreign Object Debris (FOD) covers that close for initial start up (vid). Meanwhile louvres located at the top of the wing-root open to provide alternate air intake to the jet engines. Upon take off, once the weight on wheels (WoW) switch in the nose gear detects it is off the ground, the louvers cycle closed and the FOD covers on the primary intake retract, allowing max airflow to the engines once the danger of FOD damage has passed. This ingenious design allows the Fulcrum to operate, not only from unimproved runways or even highways, but even from grass fields. The wing itself and the distance to the ground preventing small stones and debris from getting sucked into the delicate engines.

I cannot stress how dangerous and debilitating FOD is to aircraft. A single rock, bolt, nut, or minor road debris can have a cataclysmic effect on a modern high-performance jet engine. It may not even happen immediately, the damage could happen on take off, then progressively get worse during flight as the blades, now potentially bent or unbalanced begin to self-destruct the engine internals. Even if a MiG-29 happens to shell out an engine because of the careless placement of a bolt or tool by a mechanic or the ingestion of a bird during flight or take off, the MiG HAS TWO ENGINES which are isolated in separate bays, preventing the destruction of one engine from FOD-ing out the second.

The F-16, by contrast, is definitely not suited for this style of airfield. The bottom of the intake lip sits approximately 30” from the ground with no provision of alternate intake. In addition, all the suction flow of that air comes from the sides, fore, and ground since no air can be ingested from above the engine (that’s where the fuselage is). With no provision for FOD protection or alternate, high-mounted intakes during the entire time spent on the ground, this calls for rigid and inflexible FOD control measures from the location of engine start, to taxiing routes to the runway.

In the USAF, this meant hundreds of maintainers walking at arms-length intervals two to three times a day with eyes on the ground looking for any and every piece of debris that could be ingested by the multi-million dollar vacuum cleaner with only ONE engine we were charged with maintaining. In addition, an almost constant procession of street-cleaners rumbled up and down the flightline, taxiways and runway. Everything had to be spotless lest we risk the aircraft, or worse, the pilots.

Imagine the preparation it would take to complete this process on a 10,000 foot long straight highway, in the dark, while trying to be as inconspicuous as possible so as not to draw the attention of collaborators or Russian spies. You couldn’t hop from highway to highway or run from unimproved airfields like the Ukrainian Air Force can do with MiG-29s, you’d be handcuffed or at the very least less mobile. Imagine a disused Soviet airfield that suddenly had all its weeds plucked from the cracks in the concrete, concrete patched, the runway spotless. What signal does that send? “F-16s could, will, or are operating from here.”

There are several other issues discussed in the above thread. The maintenance philosophy behind U.S. and Russian build planes is different. The Russians just change factory parts and systems, U.S. maintainer try to repair them locally:

The MiG-29 averages about 11 hrs of maintenance for every ONE hr of flight. The F-16? A whopping increase to 18.5 maintenance hrs for every one hr of flight time. These are per aircraft with experienced crews. These figures also assume decent airframe hours on the aircraft.

The Ukraine will also need a sufficient number of competent maintainers. The training for them will likely take more time than for the pilots. The author of the above suggests a solution:

Plenty of mechanics in Europe and the US are happy to lend their services to the UAF as members of the “International Legion” or the modern day iteration of the “Flying Tigers”. Myself included.

Well, good luck doing maintenance on the F-16s that will soon sit on those few available and thereby quite vulnerable Ukrainian airfields.

Russian air defenses, from the ground and from the air, can certainly suppress any F-16 flights coming near to them.

The only sensible purpose of those planes is thereby their one or two time use as a launching vehicles for long range missiles like the British Storm Shadow cruise missiles that were given to Ukraine. It is easy to train for those missions but I doubt that they will make any noticeable difference.

Comments

A bit more than a year ago German government stated that it would only provide helmets to Ukraine; today Germany is sending tanks, missiles, artillery.. And the helmets that were the thin end of the wedge.
I was thinking about this list of arms sent when I came across an article in a German daily titled “It is legitimate, not to limit the war to the territory of Ukraine.”
So when I saw the title, I thought the author was going to argue that Russia has the right to extend the war to German territory for the German participation in the Ukraine war. But no, the author was arguing Ukraine has the right to attack Russia. Does this mean Syria has the right to extend the war to US territory? No. In 2014, the author wrote the US had to invade Syria to avoid a “leadership vacuum”.
The newspapers’ readers are allowed to give their opinion about the article. The readers’ vote is two to one in favor of Ukraine extending the war to Russian territory.

Posted by: Passerby | May 23 2023 17:57 utc | 101

When it comes to the F-35, isn’t the term “operational readiness” an oxymoron?

Posted by: karlof1 | May 23 2023 17:58 utc | 102

My view regarding these F16’s
Very similar to …. Exile @ 23 they may be used as part of a bigger NATO attack. But I’d say sooner rather than later maybe combined with the nato exercises. I said is much a couple of days ago. The west have been seriously seriously embarrassed infront of the world, and they know
it !
I’m no expert on militory avionics.
So could someone tell us what part would they play in an Iraq style mass bombing shock and awe situation even into Russia proper. As stupid as that would obveously be ?
So double down on stupid.
Also Paul Damascene @ 31 make similar good points. (He’s always good to read)
————-
In the early days of the SMO we noted that America would gain not only by distroying Russia but by distroying the EU
That possibility has to be considered right here and now.
———–
But have no fear, Vladimir Putin is Ten steps ahead of them if they try it. Their going to feel a world of pain.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 23 2023 17:59 utc | 103

None of the above will do Ukranazistan any good, but it will damage the reputation of the F 16 among Amerikastani fanboys in countries like India when said F 16s get shot out of the skies. So it’s all to the good.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | May 23 2023 15:38 utc | 15
Was it not the third reich mantra- repeat a lie multiple times and it becomes the truth.
From what I read, two Indian aircraft were shot down by a F16. A MIG and a SU. The missiles on the MIG were harvested from the wreckage intact. The guy Abinandan did not get a chance to fire them.
The F16 is quite potent in the right person’s control. You may not be the last one to laugh.
Nice to know the truth.

Posted by: sal | May 23 2023 18:01 utc | 104

@Passerby/100:
Yes, but don’t forget that the ones who actually post comments on the MSM media pages are always the most fervant (or bots, obviously).
You can almost always predict the way how comments are about to form.
Although it has its importance, I wouldn’t spend too much thinking power about it.

Posted by: Verdant | May 23 2023 18:03 utc | 105

The F16s aren‘t for this year. They are for the glorreiche NATO counteroffensive in late 2024 or early 2025. to support that counteroffensive – NATO will need 2,000 aircraft of all kinds. These F16s are just a drop in the bucket.

So, two weeks.

Posted by: Sideshow Bob | May 23 2023 18:05 utc | 106

thanks b…
“there’s no getting around fundamentalism no matter how rational the argument.” the neocon mindset which is driving this, is set in stone…
“The idea that we’re going to send in offensive equipment and have planes and tanks and trains going in with American pilots and American crews — just understand, don’t kid yourself, no matter what y’all say, that’s called World War III,” Biden told a gathering of House Democrats in Philadelphia in March, 2022″
nothing has changed… i like sushis question – “What happens when a clergyman meets a psychopath and both men are armed with nuclear weapons?”
pray over the inevitable?? life is full of surprises? lolol…

Posted by: james | May 23 2023 18:06 utc | 107

NATO is an embarrassment to the world. Evil, arrogant and very stupid.

Posted by: JustTruth | May 23 2023 18:12 utc | 108

“..And the Irony missed by Peter is those that initiate the promotions on Merit, themselves got elevated by the Peter Principle.
Just think of the mechanism that got Biden elected. It makes the Peter Principle look genius…”
kupkee@94
It can be: the promotion of incompetents leads to a chain of command, tasked with reproducing itself, composed of persons unable to judge whether those that they appoint will act as they do.
The chances are that they won’t so that incompetents, setting out to promote incompetents, will acyuallu-so incompetent are they- promote competent people to succeed them.

Posted by: bevin | May 23 2023 18:13 utc | 109

By bringing F16s into play the neocons are daring Putin to strike airbases in Romania and/or Poland. This is a very dangerous gamble. Maybe EU members won’t have the guts to invoke Article 5, but WW III is getting closer.

Posted by: HH | May 23 2023 18:16 utc | 110

But we will soon be hearing about the glorious exploits of the F16 as soon as it arrives in Ukraine.
Our MSM is Ukrainian Pravda. The following story is repeated as absolute truth on FOX NW even though it comes from Ukraine’s General Staff.
https://news.yahoo.com/russia-cuts-training-period-prisoners-035844088.html – ‘Russia has reduced the training of their prisoner soldiers to 10 days before sending them into battle’
————————
BTW point taken on the F16 range. The reason I believed the af.mil website was because I could not believe that the F16’s range could possibly be that small. It is shocking. The Su-35 easily has over twice the range of the F16. I guess the F16 doesn’t need that much range when it spends most of its time dropping bombs from Israel to the Gaza Strip and Syria.

Posted by: Christian Chuba | May 23 2023 18:17 utc | 111

Posted by: shadowbanned | May 23 2023 16:53 utc | 64
It has not gone according to Russian plan, but your characterization is extreme. Right now it’s a race between whether Ukraine runs out of men before Russia runs out of bullets. Ukraine is held together by outright repression and western loans.
I’m sympathetic to the Doomer club because all MoD’s are corrupt sinkholes and I get most of my information on Russia from Russian primary sources. But the last thing Ukraine actually did was Kharkov and that was September 2022. Maybe tomorrow they’ll encircle artemosk but they’ll probably need to capture at least a couple of villages before that’s a real threat. Ukraine is in no way defeated. It probably has one good pinch left in it; maybe two if things break right. Capturing a border post isn’t a punch.
Funny that the doomers and angry patriots were the ones making yesterday sound like the end of the world. Almost like confirmation bias.

Posted by: Lex | May 23 2023 18:18 utc | 112

US Navy has been upgrading F16s into their aggressor fleet for several years. The upgrads for the aircraft are provided in the article below. So the Navy not USAF could be doing training.
The F16 has operational range of over 500 mile (800+ km) on internal fuel tanks; twice that with external tanks. More specs in second article cited.
F16 in NATO are often equipped with parachute air brakes (many photos on internet), and they have a fish hook that’s designed to hold aircraft in place during engine maintenance testing. Both features can be used to shorten landing and liftoff requiements.
Runway cleanliness is simply provide by conventional street sweepers that wet the road surface for dust control and rotary brushes to collect debris. They travel at 20-30 mile per hour and can make a double pass of runway while plane rolls out into takeoff position. Birds control by poisoned feeders and bait.
My guess for location Transcarpathia, mountains on one side Romania on other. Probably already have plane bunkers dug into mountains. Don’t have to centralize planes for maintenance just planned rotation inside and/or outside Ukraine. Also AD crossfire targeting possible between mountains and Romania.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/the-navy-will-receive-its-first-surplus-f-16s-from-the-air-force-today
https://www.infoplease.com/us/military/fighter-planes-lockheed-martin-f-16

Posted by: Jerr | May 23 2023 18:20 utc | 113

Re:Posted by: horseguards | May 23 2023 17:06 utc | 69
“If they’re successful and there ends up being an accommodation where there is not a ceasefire but there is a peace agreement that gets worked out, that they’ll have the capacity to have confidence in their ability to resist response by the Russians if they were to change their position,” he said at a news briefing on May 21.” BIDEN
My interpretation differs from yours. Biden is NOT talking about a “frozen conflict” I.e, mention “not a ceasefire” but a “peace agreement” as in Minsk3 ish? Then he phrased it like “Russia” “would change their position” in other words, if Russia breaks the “deal”… when in reality, all of it is BS, time and time again … another excuse to escalate & escalate under the guise of either “getting Ukraine in the best bargaining position”. He already knows a frozen conflict is off the table for Russia.
Frankly, they have “no plan”. They’ve never been in a proxy war they can’t control other nations with or the target.
They’ve never gone after, in a hot war, another peer nation, with Nuclear arms that match their own. Heck, they won’t even fire on N Korea.
They’re lost on how to get Russia to capitulate. They’ll never get the international support they were certain they had to isolate Russia.
But most importantly, they are unsure if Russia would actually retaliate and nuke them first.
Biden is hoping for one last hoopla PR strike, maybe against Crimea & then ???

Posted by: Trubind1 | May 23 2023 18:24 utc | 114

just a cursory view of headlines on a news aggregator reveals no prominent ones discussing the devastating lose of Bakhmut for Ukraine. I click on a subheading about the “Russia Ukraine” war, and I get articles about “pro Ukrainian Russians trying to liberate Russian villages”. this is today, 1:25 US central time. I don’t know what it was like at the height of Pravda and Izvestia in the USSR, but the information blackouts can’t have been much worse.

Posted by: pretzelattack | May 23 2023 18:27 utc | 115

Now that the war is over I wonder how long before air travel resumes in Ukraine?

Posted by: Andrei | May 23 2023 18:29 utc | 116

By bringing F16s into play the neocons are daring Putin to strike airbases in Romania and/or Poland. This is a very dangerous gamble. Maybe EU members won’t have the guts to invoke Article 5, but WW III is getting closer.
Posted by: HH | May 23 2023 18:16 utc | 109
The F-16 and any weapons they carry can be defeated. Obviously if they come from Romania, the only obvious direction they can be used in is Crimea and the peninsula. The Shadow storm with 500km range pose more of a problem though, as they can reach 500km and fly very low.
But the targeting will have to be provided by Nato AWACS planes quite close to Crimea.

Posted by: unimperator | May 23 2023 18:29 utc | 117

Biden is hoping for one last hoopla PR strike, …
Posted by: Trubind1 | May 23 2023 18:24 utc | 113

Before he goes to meet Abraham…or Satan…or just disintegrate…

Posted by: ostro | May 23 2023 18:32 utc | 118

A lot of speculative frenzy about the F-16s. The jets will be shot down, they may fire off a few missiles hitting some targets resulting in some damage to Crimea.
They will all be shot down, which is the point. USA / NATO are just depleting old military hardware so that the trillion dollar weapons replacement can begin.
On some level, Russia is complicit in this arms manufacturing bonanza. It is good for business and the only price to be paid are Ukrainian and some Russian lives.
War has always been racket. It has not changed.

Posted by: Sundance | May 23 2023 18:32 utc | 119

Karlof1 @90
Many thanks for the thoughtful and careful reply, with which I am in sympathy. There’s more to the Slavic angle than I had considered, and indeed it seems at least plausible that, from a NATO/Naziphilic perspective, a close second behind the goal of killing Russians is that of killing Ukrainians.
Your point about the Age of the Missile is aptly expressed. Indeed the fusion of “iron” & hi-tech that the US has so long trumpeted in its own weapons tech seems greatly outclassed by Russia’s.
But the perplexity that led me to post in the first place was whether there is an explanation, other than incompetence, for this NATO pattern of drawing red-lines, then progressively crossing them, in such a way as to dribble in support, when, certainly if it ends up launching some kind of direct attack–under the guise of peacekeeping, or a coalition of the willing or an military-exercise ambush–to have provided all this all at once, while Ukraine had still a formidable land force and AD network, would have been a vastly more powerful strategy.

Posted by: Paul Damascene | May 23 2023 18:33 utc | 120

Posted by: Paul Damascene | May 23 2023 18:33 utc | 119
maybe they couldn’t have under Trump. Biden gets into office, withdraws from Afghanistan so they can get this operation going, the game the whole time is to provoke Russia into attacking. that in their minds would let them convince the US and Western publics that all this shit was necessary.

Posted by: pretzelattack | May 23 2023 18:41 utc | 121

When it comes to the F-35, isn’t the term “operational readiness” an oxymoron?
Posted by: karlof1 | May 23 2023 17:58 utc | 101
Not only oxymoron. The F35 is “America’s own “No Fly Zone”

Posted by: Golddiggr | May 23 2023 18:41 utc | 122

The chances are that they won’t so that incompetents, setting out to promote incompetents, will acyuallu-so incompetent are they- promote competent people to succeed them.
Posted by: bevin | May 23 2023 18:13 utc | 108
My experience has forced me to adjust some of Life’s Truisms.
“You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.” True
But, for example, in the Biden White House.
“You can shove his ignorant head in the water but you still can’t make him drink.”

Posted by: kupkee | May 23 2023 18:42 utc | 123

HB_norica | May 23 2023 15:55 utc | 25
***I suspect the real mission of these aircraft is to gather electronic intelligence on Russian air defences and radars. They’ll want to fly directly into Russian air defence zones in a manner where the Russians have to engage and shoot down the F-16’s … ideally without a US pilot on board. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Ukrainians get specially equipped aircraft specifically for intelligence gathering.***
Flown by pilots borrowed from the Israeli airforce, so the Kremlin won’t allow them to be shot down?

Posted by: Cynic | May 23 2023 18:48 utc | 124

Mark2 @ 102
Shock & awe? You jest. If all 50 F-16s survived two missions and successfully delivered maximum payload, the explosive weight would be about same as what RF delivers in a day and a half just from 152mm howitzer rounds. Yes, different targets. So what. This theatre and bad theatre.

Posted by: oldhippie | May 23 2023 18:49 utc | 125

“Would a captured F-16 be of value to the Russians; what could be learned that the Russians don’t already know?”
Posted by: horseguards | May 23 2023 17:10 utc | 73
From the aircraft itself, nothing. But maybe some insights on spoofing the avionics.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | May 23 2023 18:53 utc | 126

@112..Runway cleanliness is simply provide by conventional street sweepers that wet the road surface for dust control and rotary brushes to collect debris. They travel at 20-30 mile per hour and can make a double pass of runway while plane rolls out into takeoff position. Birds control by poisoned feeders and bait.
Soo does that mean the US will be sending Up armored street sweepers to patrol the Ukraine runways where the Pansy Jets are located? Its going to take more than poison bait to stop Russian plane killing Hawks.

Posted by: Golddiggr | May 23 2023 18:57 utc | 127

F16 is the same story as all the other miracle equipments…
Will just make more people die.
The question is what is next up after F16.
And…btw… did Zaluzhny and Friends, appear somewhere?

Posted by: Erik | May 23 2023 18:59 utc | 128

@ Paul Damascene | May 23 2023 18:33 utc | 119
paul – i missed your post @ 31… i struggle like juliania to stay on top of all the posts, although i am not resigning from moa… you make total sense in your commentary @ 31 and ask a very good question which as i understand it is this : ‘why this now, at this late stage, after you have burned thru so much?’
usa-uk and friends have their own escalation approach… when the f-16s don’t give the desired results, what then? what are the desired results? russia bombing poland or romania airfields? or? then nato is actually invoked?? none of it makes sense to me paul.. it is the actions of insanity, or someone on its last legs, or?
people of the world need to figure out how to get along.. most are interested in this.. obviously those in power and their friends in the media who wish to help them maintain power, are willing to lie, propagandize and etc. etc. but at some point it must come to a stop.. maybe some other bigger issue will replace all this? debt limit? a different war with china? a new pandemic, or contrived pandemic? i am running out of ideas…
as always – thanks for your prescient commentary and karlof1’s as well..

Posted by: james | May 23 2023 19:03 utc | 129

maybe they couldn’t have under Trump. Biden gets into office, withdraws from Afghanistan so they can get this operation going, the game the whole time is to provoke Russia into attacking. that in their minds would let them convince the US and Western publics that all this shit was necessary.
Posted by: pretzelattack | May 23 2023 18:41 utc | 120

That is the “western” way of thinking, that the US is brainy enough to “provoke” Russia to attack. But, that’s no the way it was. Russia came in when it was ready, and with all kinds unprecedented weapons. Remember, in the end of 2021 Putin gave certain ultimatums, which the ‘west” couldn’t take. And, then it happened and it was never a war, but a “Special Military Operation”.
It was to denazify and demilitarise the Ukraine, in other words, the NATO and the west. And, Russia is doing that all the time. The Special Operation, even without the middle Military part. The cost of living is gone up in the so-called West. The security of the future appears to be nil or about that. The so-called ruled based world is gone. De-dollarisation is happening. de-Euro too. No one in the “west” any more sure of their weapons, or even their armies. Russian Federation under the leadership of Putin is not the USSR, not the Tsar’s Russia, but something else, which the people in the “west” won’t fathom.

Posted by: ostro | May 23 2023 19:09 utc | 130

Old hippy @ 124
Thanks for your reply. I honestly didn’t know that’s why I asked.
Am still in doubt becouse dispite all the quick fire comments no one is considering a …. ful on land, air and sea full blown NATO Attack.
If your comment still stands then I’m glad. But it sounds like you suggest f16s only shock and awe. Obveously thats stupid and not what I meant.
But thanks.
But I’d still love to hear an answer from others. Or your selve.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 23 2023 19:09 utc | 131

Operating F-16s from Romanian to attack Crimea would require travelling over open water for 200km+. No terrain to hide in. Suicide.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | May 23 2023 19:11 utc | 132

If F-16s fly into the Ukraine from any NATO airfield that airfield would be subjected to be Kinzhalled. 🙂

Posted by: ostro | May 23 2023 19:13 utc | 133

News seen just now: “F-16 fighter jet deliveries to Ukraine are planned for the long term, not for upcoming offensive operations – Pentagon”
It could be a sign of conflict between different factions in Washington. Whatever will be put into action, the MIC will use the F-16 saga to keep the product roadmap alive and order flow robust.
Drone attacks and small desperate raids on Russian territory seem the best idea the US has at the moment. They can be sold to the Western audiences as “pro-Ukrainian Russians are starting an insurgency”. It overcomes the PR problem that the Ukrainian military isn’t winning anything tangible, and replaces that with the perception that it’s all been worth it as now the Russians themselves join the fray and topple Putin.
A new hope for the Western tax donkeys: victory is coming at last, just through a different avenue.

Posted by: Leser | May 23 2023 19:16 utc | 134

“pro-Ukrainian Russians” means just traitors. And, traitors are shot!

Posted by: ostro | May 23 2023 19:21 utc | 135

QF 16s @ 76
Ghost of Kiev takes to the air!!!

Posted by: KlutchKargo | May 23 2023 19:25 utc | 136

F16 TRAINING: The F-16 training of Ukrainian pilots is a ploy to remove NATO from looking like it is directly engaged in the Russo/Ukrainian war. Instead, NATO F-16 pilots are resigning per their command’s request, removing their country’s patch and placing a Ukrainian patch on their uniform. This is pretty easy to do these days since most uniforms have velcro patch areas. Most likely these pilots are also obtaining increased combat pay. Maybe even from their original militaries.
F16s IN UKRAINE: Now the Russian military can hone up on its skills in taking down F-16s. This will provide Russia invaluable experience in taking out a major component of the Western war machine. Openingly, Putin will condemn the move of the West giving Ukraine F16s. Yet, behind the scenes the Russian military is looking forward to the challenge. It looks like the Russian S-300 and S-400 crews are going to become very busy in the near future.
FURTHER ESCALATION: The escalation towards nuclear war continues. For those who think such is impossible I would like to read how the Russo/Ukrainian war goes to negotiations and peace rather than nuclear war.

Posted by: young | May 23 2023 19:28 utc | 137

Still no answer to my question ?
Crickets…. odd
———
Young @ 136
Thats a good question someone should ask the vegetable.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 23 2023 19:34 utc | 138

According to Turkish sources, fierce negotiations are underway in NATO regarding the transfer of F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine. If there are no questions about the very fact of the transfer, then the opposition of many countries was caused by the US initiative to transfer the F-16 fighter jets to the Armed Forces of Ukraine with the ability to use B61 free-fall nuclear bombs, and the Americans insist that Ukrainian pilots also undergo training for their use.
At the moment, there is a consensus on the transfer of at least 24 aircraft to Ukraine, with at least one squadron (12 aircraft) to be trained in the use of nuclear bombs. The United States, Great Britain, Poland, and Germany are in favor of this idea, and Turkey, Greece, and Hungary are against it.
Opponents of this initiative believe that in this way the risk of an escalation of the conflict increases sharply, in addition, the United States will be forced to keep a stockpile of nuclear weapons within the reach of Russian operational-tactical systems. In addition, the negotiations were significantly complicated by yesterday’s UAF raid on the territory of the Belgorod region, which casts doubt on any guarantees from Kiev on the non-use of any weapons received from the West on Russian territory itself.
On the other hand, an active lobbyist for the decision is Poland, which plans, through the Ukrainian option, to finally achieve the deployment of nuclear weapons on its territory, and also to get them actually under its operational control.

https://t.me/Slavyangrad/47484

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | May 23 2023 19:40 utc | 139

I’m with … Side show Bob @ 105
Ha ha ha nice one mate.
Stick around it appears your needed here.
I like your style.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 23 2023 19:49 utc | 140

Posted by: ostro | May 23 2023 19:09 utc | 129
I wasn’t claiming the thinking about provoking Russia was correct, I was claiming that Biden/neocons could not put launch a massive attack on eastern Ukraine at that time because of political conditions in the US. obviously the strategy doesn’t work–the question i was answering was why the US didn’t move sooner to implement its losing strategy. also, i haven’t seen any evidence that the attackers were Russian at all.
really, my comment is about the massive information gap in the msm about the true situation in the war.

Posted by: pretzelattack | May 23 2023 19:51 utc | 141

@ 130
Am still in doubt becouse dispite all the quick fire comments no one is considering a …. ful on land, air and sea full blown NATO Attack.
I can absolutely guaranty you that Russia has taken consideration of a full blown NATO attack, conventional or Nuclear. Russia is just waiting for the chance to break NATOs back.
That is why they hold 500,000 trained troops in reserve with weapons stockpiled to the warehouse roof. Russia has many aircraft near the front but their use in Ukraine has been minimal. Their Navy active in the Black Sea.
Russia is a Bear hidden in thick brush. Waiting to spring on its unsuspecting foolish prey with claws and teeth bared.
Ukraine is being used by Russia as a training ground for the inevitable clash with NATO.
That is why Russia is in no hurry to win in Ukraine. The longer, the better. Russia gets stronger and better trained. NATO pours in manpower(mercenaries) and weapons it cant replace and gets weaker.

Posted by: Golddiggr | May 23 2023 19:52 utc | 142

Posted by: Mark2 | May 23 2023 19:09 utc | 130
Well Mark2, I’m not sure it is at all relevant to what we consider, but certainly the Russians have considered just about every scenario that we would come up with.

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | May 23 2023 19:52 utc | 143

Opponents of this initiative believe that in this way the risk of an escalation of the conflict increases sharply, in addition, the United States will be forced to keep a stockpile of nuclear weapons within the reach of Russian operational-tactical systems. In addition, the negotiations were significantly complicated by yesterday’s UAF raid on the territory of the Belgorod region, which casts doubt on any guarantees from Kiev on the non-use of any weapons received from the West on Russian territory itself.

The further escalation up to the level of full nuclear war is clear and assured.
The Western elites want that.

Posted by: srbin | May 23 2023 19:52 utc | 144

@ karlof1 90
Germanic/ Norse racism against Slavs approaching the West is redundant because the Slavs have found more advantages within their continent than what the West has.
The West has a climate from the Caribbean and sea access.
Asia has a colder climate , an advantage in tines of global warming, a vast Muslim population, vast mineral and hydrocarbon resources, forestry and fertile land. Asia is connected umbilically to the richest, industrial superpower.
The West is obsessed with its historical concept of Slavic jealousy. But the West has literally volumes all its assets, and is living on funny money.

Posted by: Giyane | May 23 2023 19:52 utc | 145

To: Paul Damascene | May 23 2023 16:00 utc | 31
“Mystifying. Anyone care to weigh in? Bevin, James, Outlander, Karlof1, Peter
AU…? ”
No superstar here, but you didn’t pay much, so here are my worthless $0.02. Just
speculation and logic from an anonymous coward, including a money back garanty.
“you’ve been planning to fight Russia for 8 years and know that only Ukraine has
the ground forces and the willingness to lose a million men in the
effort. You’ve already armed and equipped them.
Are you really going to wait to see a million men destroyed only *then* to
launch some kind of “…
And whatever we know they know and then some.. I doubt that they are *that*
stupid.
What we don’t know is what really are their plans. What are their targets and
goals. We assume something, like they want to hurt at least the Russians as
badly as they can, and then draw the conclusion they must be retarded and the
plan isn’t working. But without knowing their goal(s) we can not say, if their
plan really is misguided.

Posted by: C | May 23 2023 19:52 utc | 146

The logical conclusion to me at the current moment is that the “American”
(cabalists, globalists, imperialists, empire, octopus, deep state,
industrialists, MIC, man behind the curtain, you name it) have as their
(minimal) target/goal:
a) to destroy at least one million, better all of Ukrainian men, Let the
remaining woman leave the country.
b) destroy the Ukrainian fertil land (radioactive DU amonition, moon crater
landscape – Energodar NPP the game is still on – soon a few hundred F16s
distributed over the landscape).. BTW, what does it cost to decommission
these old planes vs how much does it cost whoever will have to clean up the
Ukrainian landscape later on?
Did you know that Chinese were buying on the black market (before the SMO)
the black earth and shipping it home to them..?
We are now 1 1/2 years into this campaign, and better judge them by their
action, not by their word. And what have they done so far?
Push the Ukrainian men like lemmings into the abyss.
Now you tell me this is out of incompetence and not by design or intend?
It needs two to tango. One opens the meat grinder, and one has to push the meat
in.
PS. Doesn’t mean there are not further goals down the road (leaving the famous
back door open)…

Posted by: C | May 23 2023 19:53 utc | 147

I think it makes more sense now why there was so little protection at the border with Belgorod:
One does not need guards at the entrance of a bear’s cave …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | May 23 2023 19:53 utc | 148

Light years from home @ 138
That’s big big news.
Very very provocative. A big step closer to the edge of the abyss!
And will escalate the speed of events considerably.
Thanks.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 23 2023 19:54 utc | 149

Not volumes, the West has consumed all its assets…

Posted by: Giyane | May 23 2023 19:54 utc | 150

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | May 23 2023 19:40 utc | 138
jesus. no wonder i ran out to get some beer. gonna need a bigger cooler.
let’s give nazis nukes. oh wait, the DC/London crowd already has them.
maybe cuba could use some nuclear-capable hypersonics?
go typhoon in Guam, go! we’re all pulling for you!

Posted by: rjb1.5 | May 23 2023 19:54 utc | 151

Paul Damascene | May 23 2023 18:33 utc | 119–
Thanks for your reply. Not incompetence per se; Crooke calls it the failure to think things through with which I agree. Shortsightedness caused by over reliance on one particular mode, i.e. that sanctions would be enough because Russia’s economy is poorer than Lesotho’s. Nazis all too often believe their own false Narrative and propaganda as history proves. The Age of Plunder generated several Mythos–one American, one European–that are now being exposed for what they are–a gobbledygook of doubleplusgood thinking: Newspeak meshed with Oldspeak.
IMO, one must return to 2014’s events and how Russia thwarted NATO’s plan to capture Crimea, which was clearly The Prize, and how those living in Greater Russia reacted and defeated the Ukie military. Thanks to the Minsk and subsequent UNSCR, NATO couldn’t go full bore in attacking Donbass. But the emphasis changed with the installment of the Team Biden Nazis that included the primary instigators Biden, Sullivan and Nuland. Team Putin saw what then occurred within Ukraine and decided to lock NATO into a corner of its own choosing. The Team Biden Nazis were able to convince their EU Nazi associates that Russia would collapse economically as the well worn narrative promised but failed from the outset. Russia’s SMO goals were hard for NATO to figure despite their overtness, and NATO assumed Russia would do what it would do, which was again incorrect. Note the failure of many NATO assumptions. All that combined to generate the series of events we’ve seen. Someone had to assure EU Nazis and their American partners that Russia’s military wasn’t up to the task and could be defeated, but that turned out to be another failed assumption as Russia adopted the Siege as its method as described earlier.
Recall NATO is run by American Nazis and its Eurofascist subordinates merely follow orders, although the latter have a bit of influence on the former at times. Yet, there’s another deeper thread to this that I’ve mentioned occasionally and was well illustrated at the outset in 2022 by Dr. Hudson–the NATO war on Europe to finalize its colonial status. Gotta look at the WEF agenda and other EU specific stuff happening while War was waged on West Asia, then North Africa, then West Asia again that’s obfuscated many happenings within Europe as the EU became ever more Fascist and controlled by Washington’s Nazis.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 23 2023 19:54 utc | 152

In response to Mark2@130,
A full on land, sea and air attack on Russia by NATO isn’t being considered, presumably because of Russian nuclear deterrence.
Western states have the unenviable situation, where there are hard limits on their escalation capabilities. Any step that they take which could credibly be considered as threatening to the existence of Russia can be presumed to be the final step. In other words, they are limited to options which may be unpleasant for the Russians, but never options which can effectively alter the course of the conflict in a military sense, assuming of course that any such options are available.
By that logic, a full on land, sea and air attack on Russia by NATO would either have to be planned to fail a priori, with Russia either made aware of that fact beforehand or depended on to reach that conclusion on their own. If not, the execution or planning of any conventional NATO ops would be overshadowed either by the attempted nuclear first strike by Western states, to try and disable as much of Russia’s nuclear potential as possible, or a Russian nuclear first strike which would seriously degrade Western options for retaliation. Meaning that if a conventional attack on Russia is being considered by NATO, it more than likely has a significant nuclear component which is also its main component.

Posted by: Skiffer | May 23 2023 19:55 utc | 153

Gold diggr @ 141
Absalutly right, my thinking exactly.
I said as much up thread Putin’s 10 years ahead of the west.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 23 2023 19:59 utc | 154

Posted by: Sushi | May 23 2023 16:39 utc | 50
“By deception thou shalt make war” is the motto of a particularly devilish group…

Posted by: xLemming | May 23 2023 20:01 utc | 155

Such a typically terrific MoA thread, including spirited dispute concerning the F-16’s range. The high hazard of Foreign Object Debris (FOD) to jet engines is a revelation indeed. FOD could be the story of my life: sweeping it up, wondering where the hell it all came from. OMG, that piece of FOD looks like mouse poop!
John Helmer’s Dances with Bears blog has one of the more comprehensive analyzes of this F-16 business I’ve seen. In addition to the fall of Bahkmut, there’s also the recent, catastrophic failure of Ukraine’s brand-new Patriot missile defense system — another turning point in military history passing almost unnoticed. Now what?
RSH observes above that Biden’s WWIII momentum seems unstoppable. To me, the clearest token of that fact is the utter impunity always granted to acts of USA-sponsored terrorism — from Nord Stream to Hiroshima. Twas ever thus?

Posted by: Aleph_Null | May 23 2023 20:03 utc | 156

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/c4isr-command-tech/latest/poland-in-advanced-talks-for-globaleye-early-warning-aircraft
Maybe ucraine is shopping undercover?
@b
Thank you for the daily effort!
(Could it be that wikipedia
“translated” miles with km 1:1. I think F16 range is about 500 miles which is about 860 km. They should also have extra tanks avaible to extent the range, but i guess it would interfere whith some of the weapon systems, which they whould like to lauch.)

Posted by: 600w | May 23 2023 20:07 utc | 157

They could add some throwaway delectable ejectable beefy snorkels pointing around and up and turn the “Fighting Falcon” into the “Henry Hoover”!
Yes add some googly eyes too 😛
Other potential names might be the “Gay Gordon” and the “Mucky Moth” 🙂
It couldn’t possibly cost more than a billion or two. Pocket change! US accounting rounding error! Weekend at Zzzelensky’s! 😀

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | May 23 2023 20:08 utc | 158

America would shoot itself in the foot if they really intended to implement their F16 plans. There is little potential use for the fighters, the one application that was mentioned was, as a firing platform for certain air based missiles. Apart from that, the endeavor would turn into an advertising campaign for Russian air defense systems, and for Russian fighter jets, increasing Moscow’s prestige and revenues, and lowering Washington’s. I expect the US administration to understand this point, (there isn’t much else they can understand) and to cancel their F16 plans altogether. We are at a turning point, no doubt:
Zelenskyy will never return to Kiew,
Zaluzhni is missing,
the Bakhmut saga is over,
there is a lack of fresh ideas both for sanctions and weapon deliveries,
China’s diplomacy redesigns the Middle East,
US elections are coming –
the West has reached a dead end. Not that it made them any wiser, in Brussels, London and Washington. A change is imminent, but what sort of change I don’t know. Let’s hope that some people wake up – if not, it may well go down the doomsday path, as outlined by young or by shadowbanned.

Posted by: grunzt | May 23 2023 20:17 utc | 159

Wonder if the BETAB500-SHP can be fitted with the glide bomb kit?
Posted by: kupkee | May 23 2023 17:48 utc | 94
I think the mechanism was called euphemistically ‘fortifying the election result’.

Posted by: Milites | May 23 2023 20:19 utc | 160

C | May 23 2023 19:52 utc | 145–
Excellent point as all we can do is make assumptions about future behavior based on past behavior. Yet there are a few hints like the Full Spectrum Dominance Policy Goal and associated Wolfowitz Doctrine plus the Rovian idea that any reality can be created, although that’s a massive falsity as the genuine reality still exists and will prevail over the imagined reality as the former actually exists. And by past behavior I mean historical past behavior that for the Outlaw US Empire goes back to 1776 and even further back for Europeans (of which Americans are brethren). What is clear and agreed to by the World Majority is the Age of Plunder is ending and a new age is in the process of being born that subordinates the former hegemonic nations to a rather different reality. It stands to reason that the Outlaw US Empire as the last power engaged in the Age of Plunder and as such will resist it as long as possible–not for its people but for the tiny elite that benefits from that behavior.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 23 2023 20:20 utc | 161

All they really have is eairher back down or escalate further. They simply cannot do the former so the latter is the only option.
Posted by: Lex | May 23 2023 15:05 utc | 2
In the alpha-male social hierarchy of “days gone by”, an aging alpha-male facing the end of his alpha-maleness had one of two choices: surrender his alpha-male position to the challenging future alpha-male or have the future alpha-male kill him or severely wound him. A smart one would opt for the latter. Which one will the US be?

Posted by: Drapetomaniac | May 23 2023 20:20 utc | 162

Posted by: Christian Chuba | May 23 2023 18:17 utc | 110
Again, though, keep in mind that calculating range comes with many variables. For one thing, and I’m guessing here, it was probably designed to be light and agile with the intent to refuel in-air during typical US-style combat missions. Whether that’s a design flaw I’ll leave up for interpretation. The other thing is that when they say combat range, they almost certainly mean no under-wing fuel tanks (of which it is possible to carry two) and instead all “hardpoints” loaded with missiles and bombs. According to Wikipedia, the F-16’s (ferry) range increases to 2,277mi with drop tanks (assuredly making it less air-to-air combat effective, but still able to carry some missiles and/or bombs). Its fuel capacity is something like 1/3 of the SU-35 (which is a newer generation two engine aircraft).
In addition to what others more knowledgeable than me have already said about how the F-16 will likely be used, the issue for Ukraine here is that they probably won’t have access to aerial refueling as that would require direct NATO involvement or the transfer of KC-135s to the Ukro-Nazi air force along with any requisite pilot training for that aircraft.
So at the end of the day, yes, the F-16 – depending on how it will be utilized by the Ukrainians – with no aerial refueling – has a very limited combat range and even if it did, it’s probably moot against Russian AD systems.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 23 2023 20:22 utc | 163

sending Up armored street sweepers to patrol the Ukraine runways where the Pansy Jets are located? Its going to take more than poison bait to stop Russian plane killing Hawks.
Posted by: Golddiggr | May 23 2023 18:57 utc | 126
Goldie
Don’t need armored street sweepers just those manufactured to New York City specifications – should protect from IEDs incindiaries of various types and most small arms. PS those sweepers will clean up anything but are only needed for take off.
On the plane killing Russian Hawks, just turning on the dazzler laser during take off should fry their eyeballs. So probably no worries there but thanks for the heads-up on those birds.

Posted by: Jerr | May 23 2023 20:23 utc | 164

Posted by: Drapetomaniac | May 23 2023 20:20 utc | 161
Oops!
Had to resubmit the post.
Opt for the former instead of latter.

Posted by: Drapetomaniac | May 23 2023 20:24 utc | 165

What amazes me….
Is no talk WRT the F-15 or Warthog…
F-16??
OK….
What if Russia simply claims all are NATO aircraft….
AND…..
Attacks all NATO airfields east of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge with Kinzhals carrying mini-nukes…
AND…
Attacka all NATO naval bases world wide with mini-nukes…
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | May 23 2023 20:27 utc | 166

Rookies or seasoned pilots to train for six to eight weeks then air combat at the deep end! Sounds more like a kamikaze suicide wing unless of course it contains a sprinkling of NATO volunteer pilots in the rear behind the decoys primed to release the stand off weapons! Deception and subterfuge is the art or so they claim of MI6 and CIA who in reality are fighting a hybrid war with kinetic consequences hence the audacious sacrifice of thousands of Ukranian soldiers to prolong the semblance of resistance and the lies of the Western narrative.

Posted by: Rick | May 23 2023 20:30 utc | 167

Attacks all NATO naval bases world wide with mini-nukes…
Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | May 23 2023 20:27 utc | 165

Remember, there was a certain Russian submarine came back without some Poseidon missiles, or was that a rumour…

Posted by: ostro | May 23 2023 20:31 utc | 168

Skiffer @ 152
Sincere thanks for that considered answer to my simple question. that’s turned into ‘pulling teeth’…odd.
I can see two flaws though in your response.
1. It assumes were dealing with rational western people, clearly not the case. More a runaway train with no breaks.
2. Related to the above… missing is any off ramp, end game, or outcome.
No I’m with Side Show Bob @ 105
New name, short and sweet, sorry guys he wins this thread.
Thanks Skiffer much respect.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 23 2023 20:37 utc | 169

XLemming @ 154
And don’t forget…..
“Do what thou wilt”
That one sent a shiver down my spine years and years ago.
Even perhaps shaped my future life fighting nazis and psychopaths.
All the best to you, hope this ends well for all of us.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 23 2023 20:44 utc | 170

Russia is trying to wait out this conflict.
They try their best not to engage big numbers of infantry and rely mainly on aviation/rockets. After year and half of fighting, tiny Avdeevka, basicaly suburb of Donetzk is shelling big city of big country, nuclear superpower. Conflict is frozen since autumn. Russian telegram channels portray this as great 4d chess played by Putin but everybody sane understands that Russia is underperforming in this war.

Posted by: smartboy | May 23 2023 20:45 utc | 171

Posted by: karlof1 | May 23 2023 20:20 utc | 160
Seriously? You sound like a promoter of Soviet agit-prop that I used to listen to on Radio Moscow, and just as believable. Everyone against us is a fascist, whose very existence is illegitimate, we are fighting for truth, freedom and international solidarity! Ironic that that mindset is mirrored by the neocons, certain of their eventual victory and architects of this policy FUBAR.

Posted by: Milites | May 23 2023 20:46 utc | 172

“Russia, with the help of a special military operation, is trying to stop the war being waged against our people.” – Vladimir Putin

Posted by: ostro | May 23 2023 20:46 utc | 173

The goal of USNATO is to control the Black Sea and demolish the Russian Federation in the process. The destruction of Ukraine is not important, it is necessary because RF has to be damaged without risking USNATO entities. US will advocate a freeze, but never neutrality and cannot be trusted in any event.
So RF must fight on and finish the job, if it means dealing with fancy aircraft and more weapons so be it as long as everything happens in Ukraine. When NATO forces become “openly” engaged, borders are crossed, we will have the world at war ….Will all the NATO countries go along with that end? so obvious, why do” they ” not see that?
Do Poles and Germans and French and all the others really want a world war? I am afraid that our leaders do wish for a world war.
Anyone have a better take on the situation?

Posted by: medo | May 23 2023 20:47 utc | 174

Re: Paul Damascene | May 23 2023| 119 and 31
Your questions are so well taken. I think Fascism’s purpose is to destroy the labor movement, to destroy the assertion that the workforce has a right to be paid living wages, to have healthcare, to have a good education, and to have law enforcement that protects their rights. I think genocide against ethnic groups has just been a way of disguising this premise for their wars.
I suspect we will find that what has divided Ukraine has been the Nazis’ fear that Russia’s progress for labor, for the working people of Russia, was infecting industrial Ukraine.
The current leadership of Russia and China are acting in the interest of their people and producing progressive results. That’s why our leadership hates them.
A prosperous, healthy and assertive workforce is exactly what Eisenhower said was necessary to defeat the military industrial complex, “an alert and knowledgeable citizenry.”

Posted by: Linda Wood | May 23 2023 20:58 utc | 175

Posted by: Milites | May 23 2023 20:46 utc | 171
you want to point out the parts that “sound like” propaganda you allegedly listened to decades ago?

Posted by: pretzelattack | May 23 2023 21:00 utc | 176

@ Paul Damascene
thank you for your posts, some of the best ever published here.
On the Belgorod episode: isn’t it pitiful? Tthe Ukrainians “invade” with lightly armoured vehicels that are predictably destroyed. Another suicide mission. Where are those Leopards and Challengers and thousands of trained troops?
A lot in this war is “acting as if”. I guess NATO thought the Javelins and Satellite intelligence coupled with economic sanctions could do the job. When it became clear they couldn’t they started rummaging in their warehouses – o yes, they found some Caesars, some Marders, some tanks from the Cold War etc…And meanwhile the Russian Steel becomes tempered.
The F-16 story is risible. In Belgium they fly about one hour weekly – it’s too costly otherwise. And they will train Ukrainian pilots…? They will probably teach them how to drink Belgian beer instead – that’s the local tradition really.

Posted by: Anthony | May 23 2023 21:00 utc | 177

What America and england needs at this late late stage, is….
A sence of their own mortality. ..(judging by this thread thats beginning to dawn on people)
Plus…. empathy…
You are no better than anyone else, no more entiled than anyone else.
Result… world peace.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 23 2023 21:04 utc | 178

Under the weather so I got to post this now if I want to. I’m sorry for my lack of reading through all the comments and me replying is unlikely (I’m pretty sure I’m done for today (or the week) and going into vegetable mode).
Mike:
No need to detonate anything; just drop some empty glass bottles (or mugs, the LPR/DPR guys had a nice “mug-grenade” solution that could be reworked sans grenade) on the runways (option: fill them with feces first but make it runny).
Bon apetit USA!
Feces… which reminds me someone should/could build a nice “potato” dog poo (aren’t there special dog poo bins in Oslo? Not sure) cannon for the upcoming June 1st NATO bash in Oslo. Remote controlled perhaps? I’m referring to the place in front of the town hall next to the end of the fjord where there’s supposedly going to be an open air (or tents?) press center. Maybe that’s over-engineering things.
Just in case the “Ford Fjord Fnord” (that’s 666! d¤WWWW¤b ) hasn’t crashed, sunk, blown up, or otherwise skedaddled by then 😛 (Odds are it has).
Sure I know I’m only dreaming out loud and amusing my inner child but the NATO shit-show is going to backfire no matter what. I have it on good authority that even the Norwegian armed forces are sniggering behind their backs at the aircraft carrier stunt. There could be some hilarious photos of it! The optics of it —even if the world stays “boring”— may turn out to be a meme-worthy PR catastrophe. You’ll all get what I mean when/if we see the picture of the carrier sitting at the end of the fjord next to the meadow of the gods 🙂

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | May 23 2023 21:05 utc | 179

In the alpha-male social hierarchy of “days gone by”, an aging alpha-male facing the end of his alpha-maleness had one of two choices: surrender his alpha-male position to the challenging future alpha-male or have the future alpha-male kill him or severely wound him. A smart one would opt for the latter. Which one will the US be?
Posted by: Drapetomaniac | May 23 2023 20:20 utc | 161
The preamble here does not match the question. USA has gamma-person social hierarchy, γεροντοκρατία.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | May 23 2023 21:08 utc | 180

Posted by: medo | May 23 2023 20:47 utc | 173
Seems about right except for this bit:

When NATO forces become “openly” engaged, borders are crossed, we will have the world at war …

The world is already at War, it’s just not a total Kinetic World War.
For us to have the “world at war” we’ll need the global south, Asia, the Middle East involved on either side and so far this simply looks like it’s shaping up to be a war in the northern hemisphere.
Personally, I hope the non-European states of the world stay completely out of any kinetic wars happening in “europe” up north, this time.
As Dr. S Jaishankar put it:

“Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe’s problems are the world’s problems, but the world’s problems are not Europe’s problems.”

Posted by: Arch Bungle | May 23 2023 21:09 utc | 181

re: dan of steele | May 23 2023 16:23 utc | 38
“I can assure you that the F-16 can pull 9 Gs, pilots regularly do it in the 2 seaters when giving incentive flights to maintainers and other special guests.”
I call bullsh*t, at least on the “regular” part. The number of people fit enough to take a 9G turn is tiny; the number of people crazy enough to want to do it just for funsies is even tinier; the number of medical officers who would approve such a stunt, I suspect, is infinitesimal.

Posted by: forceOfHabit | May 23 2023 21:15 utc | 182

Does anyone have a list of the laws and other official and unofficial actions taken in Ukraine since 2014 with Russophobic and Ukrainian nationalist aims? I am having trouble finding a good compilation even using Yandex. Any help appreciated!

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 23 2023 21:18 utc | 183

Crimea and the 4 Donbass republics are now part of Russia. Russia’s nuclear doctrine provides for the use of nukes to thwart attacks on its territory. Yet every day “Russian” territory is attacked by Ukraine with open NATO support.
With the above in mind, as far as NATO is concerned Russia is weak and bluffing, thus there is little to fear by escalating with F16s or anything else they can dream up.

Posted by: Bilaal | May 23 2023 21:19 utc | 184

Posted by: forceOfHabit | May 23 2023 21:15 utc | 181
Sorry, to be clear I don’t doubt the airframe or the professional pilots ability to do 9g turns, just the “maintainers and other special guests” on a “regular” basis.

Posted by: forceOfHabit | May 23 2023 21:19 utc | 185

Posted by: pretzelattack | May 23 2023 19:51 utc | 140
My take is that both sides thought they had an easy win. Putin thought he could do a deal by showing a lot of military muscle, but didn’t have enough troops to hold the place even if he won the war. Plus it took time to win support for the war in Russia. The state media hadn’t primed the public up to thinking the war was necessary. Lacking the troops to get it done, he had to pull back to a defensive position.
Ukraine had a very large NATO trained army. Very like our side thought they could take on the Russians. Plus they probably thought the sanctions would be a whole lot more effective than they have been. Now with a tough slog, NATO (mostly the United States) keeps doubling down with more sanctions and more weapons, so far without a useful outcome. On the Russian side there is an additional half million man army, most of which has yet to be used.

Posted by: Jmaas | May 23 2023 21:21 utc | 186

jared @ 41
I’ve observed the same patten from the Anglo-Saxon Perfidy and its allies. F16 will delivered much earlier, quite probably manned by NATO pilots with Ukrainian insignia.
Austrian Colonel (Bundesheer Oberst) Makus Reisner, who provides one of the most realistic and professional analysis on Youtube, indicated clearly in a Q&A that NATO soldiers could simply change uniforms to fight in Ukraine. Also he said straightforward that US’ military support for Ukraine was/is enough to drag Russia but not enough to win the war.
On 22.05.23, Colonel Makus Reisner gives an interview to German TV, saying the Ukraine has already started the first phase of its offensive: poking and testing the weakest link of Russian defense line.
Ukraine will need F16 to help it to succeed in its offensive. (I guess F16 could join Ukraine offensive much sooner, just remember the speedy “great leap-foward” from tank to F16.)
Reiner also mentions that Prigozhin’s ranting about Russian military and MoD could be Russian deception. Western’s underestimating of Russian military does not really help Ukraine.
It is worth listening (in German). From time to time, he also gives analysis in English/with English subtitle.

Posted by: lulu | May 23 2023 21:26 utc | 187

Zaluzhny has reappeared, at least on his telegram channel.
RIA Novosty has just reported the following: (yandex translation)
“I had a telephone conversation with the Supreme Commander of the NATO Joint Armed Forces in Europe and the Commander of the US Armed Forces in Europe, General Christopher Cavoli. The need to strengthen air defense, including with the help of F-16 fighters, and an increase in the amount of ammunition were the key topics of our dialogue,” Zaluzhny wrote in his telegram channel.
According to him, special attention was paid to the issue of extending joint work on maintenance and repair of military equipment. Zaluzhny also spoke about the initiative to strengthen the Ukrainian Marine Corps by creating new brigades. As Vladimir Zelensky said earlier on Tuesday, it was decided to increase the potential of the Ukrainian marine corps – to create a marine corps and form new brigades.
https://ria.ru/20230523/zaluzhnyy-1873738155.html

Posted by: JB | May 23 2023 21:26 utc | 188

Milites | May 23 2023 20:46 utc | 171–
I’ve researched Western behavior since before I entered puberty constantly increasing the sophistication of my examination. You being relatively new to MoA have missed a lot of my commentary based on my examinations and how they’ve evolved over the last decade most particularly. My initial line of inquiry dealt with the rise of the US Empire, which required many other related inquiries in history-related fields like anthropology, sociology and philosophy, along with the prior European history that gave life to the US Empire. It’s somewhat easy to see how Eurofascism developed from Feudalism along with the formation of elite attitudes that went with both much of which is hidden from the masses through sweeping history under the rug of time. Fortunately, there are other historians just as inquisitive as I am who were able to get their work published so it could be read by the likes of me and others. Many of those works I’ve shared with the bar over the years. And trying to relate everything in one comment is nuts. Nor are all my thoughts original as many are shared with historians many of whom are now dead, but I should name Frederic Bastiat as being extremely perceptive and influential but rarely cited by anyone today.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 23 2023 21:26 utc | 189

Gerontocracies are always fighting previous wars they lost. Erdogan is still fighting the first World War. Pakistanis still fighting the British Raj. Britain still fighting the Russian Empire.
Those who engage with the present do not need to constantly re- write history .
Listening to the BBC is like being a quill dipped in ink applied to vellum. It has no connection whatsoever to the reality of what is happening in Ukraine.
Psychopaths occupy a parallel universe
in which because a plane designed 40 years ago to fight the cold War, failed to be used against Russia before, must now be re-deployed for its original purpose. Why waste old dreams when they still possess fantasy power?

Posted by: Giyane | May 23 2023 21:28 utc | 190

F-16s air-to-air combat record is 76:1.
You are obviously confusing this plane with something else.

Posted by: Ing. Smrkovsky | May 23 2023 21:28 utc | 191

And obviously many countries have been training landing F-16s on highways. You are really doing a very poor job informing your readers.
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taiwan-lands-fighters-highway-annual-drills-reach-peak-2021-09-14/

Posted by: Ing. Smrkovsky | May 23 2023 21:34 utc | 192

So, to win the Siege, Russia and its allies must cause the collapse of the Hegemon without blowing up the world, and thus the Siege. Dollar Hegemony and Neoliberalism are its twin Achilles Heels. War is being waged on Great Russian Lands, but it will be won with the collapse of the Nazi economy and its ability to wage war.
Posted by: karlof1 | May 23 2023 17:39 utc | 90
———————————————————-
About right. No WW III nuclear conflict, most likely. Neither the US nor Russia see any benefit.
IMHO, the US aparatchiks are not seeing a way out, other than continuing escalation, until whatever . . . . (‘collapse of the Nazi economy and its ability to wage war’, is pretty vague).
I have been asking for some time who the trigger pullers are in US policy. Blinken seems to be in the lead and he is arrogant as can all be and, to me at least, seems naive. Same for Icky Vicky and family.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | May 23 2023 21:37 utc | 193

Another good analysis of the Battle of Artyomovsk, originally published in RT by a Russian journalist from Donbass:
https://socialistincanada.ca/inside-the-battle-for-control-of-bakhmut-artyomovsk-how-russia-forced-ukraine-to-retreat-from-its-fortress-in-donbass/

Posted by: Kaz | May 23 2023 21:37 utc | 194

what I am a bit afraid of – the last years were what catasthropes speaking pretty calm (except corona)
usually russia helped the western world with disasters, will they cope without?

Posted by: Macpott | May 23 2023 21:40 utc | 195

The F-16s are just talk. Propaganda for home consumption and to intimidate the Russians who want to be frightened of the evidently not omnipotent West.
What is nor talk and is certainly never talked about is the likelihood that the most fertile arable land in europe will not be producing much this year. If Russia is a gas station Ukraine is a granary which is quite likely to be empty at the year’s end.
Does anyone have information on what his being done in the Black Earth lands this Spring?

Posted by: bevin | May 23 2023 21:41 utc | 196

F-16s air-to-air combat record is 76:1.
You are obviously confusing this plane with something else.
Posted by: Ing. Smrkovsky | May 23 2023 21:28 utc | 190
F-16 Falcon 76-1-5
(A surprise to me.)
——————————-
Gulf War (USA) 0-0-3
No-Fly Zones (USA) 2-0-0
Bosnia (USA) 4-0-1
Kosovo (USA) 1-0-1
Kosovo (Netherlands) 1-0-0
Kosovo (Portugal, Belgium, Denmark, Turkey) 0-0-0
Afghanistan (USA, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway) 0-0-0
Iraq (USA) 0-0-0
Syrian border clashes 1979-1986 (Israel) 6-0-0
Operation Opera (Israel) 0-0-0
Lebanon War (1982) (Israel) 44-0-0
Lebanon War (2006) (Israel) 3-0-0
Intifada (2000-present) (Israel) 0-0-0
Soviet-Afghan War (Pakistan) 10-0-0
Border clashes (Pakistan) 1-0-0
Kargil War (Pakistan) 0-0-0
Northwest border wars (Pakistan) 0-0-0
Aegean Sea clashes (Turkey) 1-1-0
Venezuelan Coup 1992 (Venezuela) 3-0-0

Posted by: Jmaas | May 23 2023 21:42 utc | 197

“… don’t matter who did what to who at this point, fact is we went to war and now there ain’t no going back. I mean shit … its what war is you know, once you’re in it, you’re in it … if its a lie then we fight on that lie but we gotta fight.”
The Wire – Avon and Slim Charles talk “WAR”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Nus8PGZzVw

This seems to be the position that we are in.
Attempts at cold rational honest analysis is for those of us who are non-combatants. The truth is known by everyone and their gran. Even most of those who shout from the sidelines for one side or the other know the truth … however they are backing their “team” and the truth be damned.
I’m now coming around to the idea that even after the latest Ukrainian army is defeated (again) this war will continue.
Regardless of what we think about the Nuland crowd the decision has been made to fight on the lie.

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | May 23 2023 21:44 utc | 198

@ lulu | May 23 2023 21:26 utc | 186
Colonel Makus Reisner
Yes, he is great, if not the best. A real modern military professional.
He was the only I have ever heard online to properly explain and predict Popasnaya “bloom” properly and estimate (time-wise rather optimistic there) what will happen in direction Soledar/Artemovsk.

Posted by: whirlX | May 23 2023 21:50 utc | 199

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | May 23 2023 21:44 utc | 197
who do we fight, though?

Posted by: pretzelattack | May 23 2023 21:52 utc | 200