Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 16, 2023

Ukraine Open Thread 2023-92

Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Posted by b on April 16, 2023 at 13:29 UTC | Permalink

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where is everybody . . ?

Posted by: AntiSpin | Apr 16 2023 13:49 utc | 1

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11946489/Ukraine-scammers.html

Whatever inspired the Daily Mail to publish this ?

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Apr 16 2023 13:58 utc | 2

Romanian Telegram channels are reporting that the recent engineering work carried out close to the Moldova and Ukrainian borders may have been used as cover to link up with the "World famous Odessa tunnel complex" in order to move special equipment and forces into Odessa region.
Needs looking at if anyone can translate Romanian or knows of any similar engineering work involving the Odessa tunnels.
Maybe how the latest anti shop and anti air missiles are getting opposite Crimea so easily.

Posted by: Odessa tunnels | Apr 16 2023 14:19 utc | 3

https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2023/04/16/701649/German-protester-demand-live-peacefully-Europe-Russia-Ukraine

How big is the protest against war movement in Germany and the desire of Germans to get along with Russia?

There are a number of people in Germany seeking to reestablish normal trade relations with Russia, and I am hearing the German government is in need of loans from Russia and China. to keep their industries going.. Please update me..

Posted by: snake | Apr 16 2023 14:30 utc | 4

-// Just under 170,000 Ukrainians have been taken in by British families through the Homes for Ukraine scheme since Vladimir Putin launched his illegal war on their country last February. //-

How about if the idiot Brits take in some "Homes for San Francisco sidewalk Tent Dwellers"? The evil Brits are planning to nuke the Ukrainians with so-called 'depleted' (actually enriched) uranium anyway. How many will King Charles take in?

Posted by: blues | Apr 16 2023 14:31 utc | 5

@ Paul Greenwood | Apr 16 2023 13:58 utc | 2

A good hard look at the Ukrainian bourgeoisie--"people just like us."

Even worse are the ones who disdained the Homes for Ukraine program.

Posted by: John Kennard | Apr 16 2023 14:37 utc | 6

@#1

I think the Russians have managed to remove the drama from this matter knowing that Americans have a very low attention span.

Posted by: chunga | Apr 16 2023 14:43 utc | 7

And now off to the front with you: https://twitter.com/michael_brodsk/status/1645765968935673857/photo/1

Posted by: Apollyon | Apr 16 2023 14:46 utc | 8

[4]

since Vladimir Putin launched his illegal war on their country last February.

but did you read in the article that Russia had given refuge to more Ukrainians than anywhere else............?

or that someone stated real refugees were in the East not Kiev ?

Home truths emerging

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Apr 16 2023 15:08 utc | 9

Xchristos vaskrese !

Posted by: Exile | Apr 16 2023 15:18 utc | 10

A new international economic support package of $115bn is giving Ukraine more confidence it can prevail against Russian forces amid growing recognition the war could continue for longer than expected, the Ukrainian finance minister said on Saturday. Serhiy Marchenko said Group of Seven (G7) finance ministers assured him during International Monetary Fund and World Bank meetings in Washington this week that they would support Ukraine for as long as needed


--when did this happen just now? 7hours old on the news

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Apr 16 2023 15:22 utc | 11

@Exile | Apr 16 2023 15:18 utc
BaucTuHy BocKpece!

Posted by: LongCovid | Apr 16 2023 15:31 utc | 12

@neofeudalfuture

I think you may be putting too much faith in the CTRL-P
keyboard sequence.

It doesn’t matter how many digital dollars the west prints.

The war will be decided by the laws of physics.

Of course it is disgusting how they debase and destroy the standard of living inEurope and the US in fighting reality.

Posted by: Chris | Apr 16 2023 15:35 utc | 13

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11946489/Ukraine-scammers.html
Whatever inspired the Daily Mail to publish this ?
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Apr 16 2023 13:58 utc | 2
---------------------------------------------------------
My guess is that it is a reversal from their outrageous pro-Ukraine coverage getting their readership ready for some changes.

It is interesting to watch how MSN is covering the reversals. The so-called leaks are a start.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Apr 16 2023 15:37 utc | 14

translator ??
Man oh man, Chrome translate that with a right click...
Enter the address of the page here !!

Posted by: mo3 | Apr 16 2023 15:47 utc | 15

🇫🇲 The bodies of 160 NATO officers remain in a bunker in Ukraine

The bodies of 160 NATO officers were left in a bunker in Lviv Region in Ukraine after a Russian Kinnzhal missile attack. This was reported by war correspondent Viktor Baranets.

◼️ According to the author, the bunker belonged to a reserve command post of the former Precarpathian military district. It was located about 100 meters underground. Representatives of the Ukrainian Defence Ministry, General Staff of the Armed Forces, and NATO officers were at the headquarters.

🪖 The Russian servicemen decided to attack the bunker with a supersonic Kinnzhal missile after receiving information about preparations for a counterattack.

🇷🇺 The KINJAL cannot be shot down by air defense systems. The missile's explosion killed more than 200 officers, with only 40 bodies recovered so far.


https://t.me/Slavyangrad/42124

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 15:48 utc | 16

Minimum, incomplete, low-ball KIA(only)(FEBA only) 335+ ... Translated:

Summary of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation on the progress of a special military operation (16.04.2023)

◽️ In the Kupyansk direction, artillery fire of the "Western" grouping of troops hit AFU units in the areas of Dvurechnaya, Sinkovka, Timkovka of the Kharkiv region and Stelmakhovka of the Luhansk People's Republic. In addition, the actions of three Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance groups were suppressed in the areas of Novoselovskoye and Kuzemivka of the Luhansk People's Republic and Masiutovka of the Kharkiv region.

💥 Up to 35 Ukrainian servicemen, two vehicles, and a D-20 howitzer were destroyed during the day.

◽️ In the Krasno-Limanskoe direction, assault and army aviation strikes, artillery fire and heavy flamethrower systems of the Center Group of Forces hit the Ukrainian armed forces units in the areas of Nevske, Chervona Dibrova of the Lugansk People's Republic and Hryhorivka of the Donetsk People's Republic.

💥 During the day the enemy losses in this direction amounted to 80 Ukrainian soldiers, an armored fighting vehicle, two vehicles, as well as a D-30 howitzer. In addition, three ammunition depots of the AFU were destroyed in the areas of Torskoye and Terny of the Donetsk People's Republic.

◽️ In the Donetsk direction, Vagner assault units in the course of the offensive liberated two quarters in the northwestern and southeastern part of Artemivsk. Units of the Airborne Troops restrained the actions of the enemy on the flanks of the assault groups.

◽️ Strikes by operational-tactical aviation, missile forces and artillery fire of the "Southern" grouping of troops hit units of the 77th AFU airmobile brigade that were trying to counterattack Russian troop positions in the direction of the Maloyilinovka settlement, as well as the 54th AFU mechanized brigade near the Sacco and Vanzetti settlement of the Donetsk People's Republic. During the day, the aviation conducted six sorties in the area. Rocket troops and artillery of the group accomplished 43 firing tasks.

💥 The enemy losses in this direction during the day were up to 145 Ukrainian soldiers, two tanks, an infantry fighting vehicle, two armored fighting vehicles, three pickup trucks, two vehicles, an Msta-B howitzer, two D-20 howitzers, and an Uragan MLRS launcher.

◽️ Air strikes and artillery fire of the Vostok Group of Forces in the South Donetsk and Zaporizhia directions hit the AFU units near the settlements of Ugledar and Novoselka of the Donetsk People's Republic. In addition, an insurgent reconnaissance group was suppressed near the village of Novodonetskoye in the Donetsk People's Republic.

💥 During the day in these directions the enemy suffered losses of over 45 Ukrainian servicemen, two vehicles, as well as a D-30 howitzer. In addition, a US-made AN/TPQ-37 counter-battery radar station was destroyed near the village of Kamyshevakha, Zaporozhye region.

◽️ In the Kherson direction as a result of the fire attack the enemy suffered losses of over 30 Ukrainian servicemen, three vehicles, as well as one self-propelled howitzer Gvozdika.

💥 Operational-tactical aviation, missile troops and artillery of the groups of troops (forces) of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation hit 92 artillery units of the AFU at firing positions, manpower and equipment in 127 areas. The command posts of the 125th and 102nd Territorial Defense Brigades were hit in the areas of Yampolovka of the Donetsk People's Republic and Zaliznoye of the Zaporozhye region.

💥 The air defense forces intercepted 10 HIMARS and Smerch rockets, as well as three HARM anti-radar missiles. In addition, four Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles were destroyed in the areas of Egorivka, Nikolskoye and Terny settlements of the Donetsk People's Republic, and Kreminna of the Luhansk People's Republic.

📊 In total, since the beginning of the special military operation destroyed (losses over previous 24hrs(+?)):
407 aircraft, (Daily avg 1.0)
228 helicopters, (Daily avg 0.6)
3,760(+4) unmanned aerial vehicles, (Daily avg 9.1)
415 surface-to-air missile systems, (Daily avg 1.0)
8,689(+12) tanks and other armored combat vehicles, (Daily avg 21.1)
1,086(+1) multiple rocket launchers, (Daily avg 2.7)
4,600(+7) field artillery and mortars, (Daily avg 11.2) and
9,542(+29) special military vehicles. (Daily avg 23.1)

Posted by: Outraged | Apr 16 2023 15:50 utc | 17

👉👉👉 Interesting post from Ukrainian 35th brigade:

I talked to a buddy of mine from another unit today. They captured a big shot from the Russian army this week. So he claims that they have some kind of weapons of mass destruction that Putin ordered to be used in case of our attack on Crimea, Melitopol and Maruypol. Claims it is definitely not nuclear, but something new that has been kept secret and has never been used before.
I am writing this so that our commanders know that they are not the only ones who are aware of this information. The natspulse plan has to be competent, not a killer for us. And I hope to work this issue out so that we are there faster than they can push the button.
https://t.me/NovichokRossiya/28312

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 16 2023 16:00 utc | 18

Why Blinken is not invited to China

from POLITICO in February:
Secretary of State Antony Blinken said Saturday that China offered “no apology” for flying a spy balloon over the U.S. and the Biden administration has “very real concerns” that China is contemplating providing material support to Russia’s war effort in Ukraine.

from DOD recently:
BEIJING — China won’t sell weapons to either side in the war in Ukraine, the country’s foreign minister said Friday, responding to Western concerns that Beijing could provide military assistance to Russia.
China has maintained that it is neutral in the conflict, while backing Russia politically, rhetorically and economically at a time when Western nations have imposed punishing sanctions and sought to isolate Moscow for its invasion of its neighbor.
Qin Gang is the highest-level Chinese official to make such an explicit statement about arms sales to Russia. He added that China would also regulate the export of items with dual civilian and military use.
“Regarding the export of military items, China adopts a prudent and responsible attitude,” Qin said at a news conference alongside visiting German counterpart Annalena Baerbock. “China will not provide weapons to relevant parties of the conflict, and manage and control the exports of dual-use items in accordance with laws and regulations.”

and from TIME:
". . . shipments of aluminum oxide—a material used for both artificial hips and body armor—that have soared from China to Russia by more than 25 times from 2021 to 2022, according to the online data platform Observatory of Economic Complexity. Russian imports of Chinese semiconductor chips—crucial for both washing machines and tanks—have also risen over the past year."

and from BBC
The US has sanctioned a Chinese company for allegedly providing satellite imagery of Ukraine to support the mercenary Wagner Group's combat operations for Russia. Changsha Tianyi Space Science and Technology Research Institute is among 16 entities slapped with curbs by the Treasury Department.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 16 2023 16:19 utc | 19

The bodies of 160 NATO officers remain in a bunker in Ukraine.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 15:48 utc | 15

___________

I have been intrigued by this story - one that refuses to go away. Neither side is particularly talking about it, but it appears plausible to me. You would have thought though that reading some sort of military obits etc would reveal if a large number of relatively senior NATO officers had suddenly [vanished]. Anyone anyone got better info on this than me?

ps Sorry to ask rather than give info, but I'm on a bit of a loss on this one.

Posted by: marcjf | Apr 16 2023 16:20 utc | 20

I read the same info yesterday at https://gilbertdoctorow.com/ . Like you Norwegian and Marcjf I am also amazed at the lack of news coverage in any of the Alternate Sites (never mind MSM). Strange indeed.

Posted by: Muralidhar Rao | Apr 16 2023 16:38 utc | 21

Regarding China's announcement, there's a real lot of dual purpose technology and components that can be used in civilian applications, and also if desired as parts used in the construction of weapons.

Russia might not need to import any of that, but it's there if there's ever a crunch.

Posted by: Babel-17 | Apr 16 2023 16:40 utc | 22

re: military deaths
The DOD formerly reported military deaths (they called casualties) in other countries, both from combat and accidental, as "news releases.' (Probably they didn't include the 'special forces' which are in so many countries.) However the DOD has not reported any casualties overseas as a news release for some time now.
. . .Going to search for "casualties" at DOD brings:
U.S. Casualties Suffered in Conflicts -- The data contained in these Defense Casualty Analysis System reports are used by DOD organizations, external government agencies, both houses of Congress, the President, the news media, and the general public. The data contained in this site can be used to understand trends in casualties as they relate to terrain, advances in medicine, the advent of better technology that has enhanced the safety of the war fighter, or the challenges brought about by new threats.
Clicking on "Defense Casualty Analysis System" brings a "404 Not Found."

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 16 2023 16:50 utc | 23

@ Don Bacon | Apr 16 2023 16:50 utc | 22

"404 Not Found."

How ironic. lol

Posted by: Outraged | Apr 16 2023 16:54 utc | 24

Here ya go:

https://dcas.dmdc.osd.mil/dcas/app/home

Posted by: krypton | Apr 16 2023 17:09 utc | 25

Dual use? Buttons and zippers can be used to make uniforms. Food can be eaten by soldiers. What isn't dual use?

Posted by: William Verick | Apr 16 2023 17:15 utc | 26

200 NATO officers killed by Kinzhal missile?

This article by Victor Baranets was published in Komsomolskaya Pravda yesterday:

“The catastrophe of NATO forces in Ukraine”: Russia pushed back the counteroffensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine with one blow of the “Dagger” on a secret bunker - Komsomolskaya Pravda, April 15, 2023

Russian hypersonic missiles "Dagger" destroyed a secret bunker with 200 officers of NATO and the Armed Forces of Ukraine

The military departments of the USA, Great Britain, Poland and some other NATO countries prefer not to stutter even a word about what happened in early March near Lvov. And when corrosive journalists, who got wind of the terrible state of emergency, ask generals and politicians questions about it, they receive either “know comments” or crafty references to “ignorance” about what happened in response. But nevertheless, the "awl from the bag" still begins to crawl out. Information is increasingly leaking into the Western and Ukrainian press, as well as into social networks from various sources, which are very well matched in detail and allow us to present a reliable scenario for an extremely painful drama (even tragedy) for NATO and its allies.

NATO officers' bunker

And the scenario looks like this. Near Lviv, at a depth of a hundred meters, there was a reserve command post of the former Carpathian military district. This secret facility, well protected and equipped with modern communication systems, was chosen by NATO generals and colonels when, with the outbreak of hostilities of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Donbass (2014), they decided to move to the Ukrainian rear, where it was more convenient to advise the Kiev allies and develop plans of operations together with them. The secret underground point also instilled a sense of security in the "consultants" even after Moscow, with the start of its special military operation, promised to strike at decision-making points. In fact, it was a joint command and control headquarters, consisting of NATO representatives, as well as officers of the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense and the General Staff of its armed forces. In addition, this headquarters was very tightly covered by air defense systems, which further added to its "inhabitants" confidence in their safety.

Probably for this reason, the sense of vigilance was also lost - sometimes dozens of cars gathered at the entrance to the headquarters even in broad daylight, which did not go unnoticed by our space, aviation and undercover intelligence. And by the beginning of March, the Russian General Staff already knew that both in the "dungeon" and in Kyiv, the development of an offensive plan for the Armed Forces of Ukraine was in full swing. It only remained to determine the most advantageous moment to strike at the lair of the NATO "branch" in the Lviv region and carefully work out the flight tasks of our hypersonic "Daggers". And, of course, to thoroughly (up to a minute) calculate the take-off time of the Kinzhal carriers (MiG-31 fighters), the launch line of these missiles (without entering the enemy’s air defense zone) and the “instant” of hitting the target.

"Daggers" completed the task

Why were the "Daggers" chosen? Yes, because such a bunker is invulnerable to conventional missiles. And there was no point in sending bombers for strikes even with 1.5-ton or five-ton bombs: the Ukrainians could shoot down the planes, and hitting the "peg" would hardly have happened. And launched even from a distance of 2 thousand kilometers, the “Dagger” (warhead - 500 kg!) Goes to the target at a crazy speed (10 or even 15 times faster than sound!) - while there are no such air defense systems in the world that could intercept it. And also the "Dagger" is a high-precision, sniper weapon - it has a deviation from the center of the target - only 1 meter! He jumped into the "well" of the entrance group for many tens of meters, and after him another ... And this, consider, a ton of explosives!

"The catastrophe of NATO forces in Ukraine"

Of the "teachers and students" who were in the dungeon, no one survived. And there were more than 200 of them. Including, say some "informed" Western journalists, several American generals and senior officers. And also - British, Polish, Ukrainian.

And here is the very “awl from the bag”, which I already mentioned. The Greek portal Pronews, which is close to the Ministry of Defense of its country, claimed that “dozens of foreign officers were killed when the Kinzhal hypersonic missiles hit the joint Ukrainian-NATO command and communications center. This was "a disaster for NATO forces in Ukraine."

And that is not all. Some Kiev sites have also blabbed: after the emergency, representatives of the Ministry of Defense and the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were called to the carpet at the US Embassy, ​​where they were reprimanded "for the poor security of the control center", and at the same time handed over a list of the dead senior and senior American officers and ordered "to get them at least from underground." The corpses of those who died from explosions and suffocated in a frenzy are still being dug up ...

So far, according to the “leaks” in Ukrainian social networks, it can be judged that only 40 bodies have been recovered from under the ruins of the destroyed center. The rest of the dead are still buried under the rubble.

Officially

And here it is impossible not to recall that on March 9, the Russian Ministry of Defense published a modest message on its official Telegram channel stating that in response to the terrorist actions organized by the Kiev regime in the Bryansk region on March 2, the Russian army launched a massive "retaliation strike." The ministry emphasized that the Kinzhal hypersonic missile system was used.

By the way, this "retribution strike", according to the director of the Institute for the Study of National Crises Nikolai Sorokin, had other consequences. He believes that the destruction of the “think tank” of the upcoming Ukrainian offensive could well slow it down. This version has its own reason. The offensive is still delayed. Maybe, according to ritual custom, they wait 40 days from the date of death? ...

But why are the capitals of the NATO countries keeping quiet about the terrible state of emergency? Most likely because they are “ashamed” to admit a biting slap from Moscow. Or because it could be an open recognition of the active participation of NATO troops in the hostilities against Russia.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Apr 16 2023 17:17 utc | 27

@ Petri Krohn | Apr 16 2023 17:17 utc | 26 with the Kinzhal missile strike report

Thanks for that.

One wonders why the charade we are watching continues to be played out.

Not enough Shock and Awe I guess.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 16 2023 17:25 utc | 28

@Muralidhar Rao | Apr 16 2023 16:38 utc | 20

Thanks for the Gilbert Doctorow link! Here is a section of it (read all of it here)

The Kinzhals were fired by a MiG-31 fighter jet as far as 2,000 km away from the target, meaning well out of reach of Ukrainian anti-aircraft installations. Its accuracy was proven to be within one meter of the target.

The author of this article, Viktor Baranets, goes on to say that recent news releases in Ukrainian media confirm the basic story about the missile attack. He alludes to the dressing down which the American embassy gave to the Ukrainian command after the disaster and about the recovery of 40 bodies from the wreckage to date while excavation work continues to find more human remains deep underground. He believes that the loss of this vital coordination center is one major factor in the ongoing repeated delays of the onset of the vaunted Ukrainian counter-offensive. And he provides a couple of explanations of why Western media have not covered the disaster. First, that the destruction of this seemingly impregnable bunker could happen at all is proof of the unique effectiveness of the Kinzhal in doing what it was designed to do: destroy military command centers and thereby decapitate the enemy. The air defense systems of NATO are useless against an object flying at 10 – 15 mach and its impact is greater than a nuclear bomb. Second, if they were to reveal the numbers and tasks performed by the NATO contingent that was killed in the bunker, including U.S. generals, they would be exposing NATO to charges of direct involvement in the conduct of the war, meaning cobelligerent status, something which the Biden administration has sought to avoid at all costs.

Rather interesting story...

There is also a link to the Viktor Baranets article in Komsomolskaya Pravda in there, I managed to run it through a translator (I guess "know comments" is "no comments"):

“The catastrophe of NATO forces in Ukraine”: Russia pushed back the counteroffensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine with one blow of the “Dagger” on a secret bunker

Russian hypersonic missiles "Dagger" destroyed a secret bunker with 200 officers of NATO and the Armed Forces of Ukraine

The military departments of the USA, Great Britain, Poland and some other NATO countries prefer not to stutter even a word about what happened in early March near Lvov. And when corrosive journalists, who got wind of the terrible state of emergency , ask generals and politicians questions about it, they receive either “know comments” or crafty references to “ignorance” about what happened in response. But nevertheless, the "awl from the bag" still begins to crawl out. Information is increasingly leaking into the Western and Ukrainian press, as well as into social networks from various sources, which are very well matched in detail and allow us to present a reliable scenario for an extremely painful drama (even tragedy) for NATO and its allies.

NATO officers' bunker

And the scenario looks like this. Near Lviv, at a depth of a hundred meters, there was a reserve command post of the former Carpathian military district. This secret facility, well protected and equipped with modern communication systems, was chosen by NATO generals and colonels when, with the outbreak of hostilities of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Donbass (2014), they decided to move to the Ukrainian rear, where it was more convenient to advise the Kiev allies and develop plans of operations together with them. The secret underground point also instilled a sense of security in the "consultants" even after Moscow, with the start of its special military operation, promised to strike at decision-making points. In fact, it was a joint command and control headquarters, consisting of NATO representatives, as well as officers of the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense and the General Staff of its armed forces. In addition, this headquarters was very tightly covered by air defense systems, which further added to its "inhabitants" confidence in their safety.

Probably for this reason, the sense of vigilance was also lost - sometimes dozens of cars gathered at the entrance to the headquarters even in broad daylight, which did not go unnoticed by our space, aviation and undercover intelligence. And by the beginning of March, the Russian General Staff already knew that both in the "dungeon" and in Kyiv, the development of an offensive plan for the Armed Forces of Ukraine was in full swing. It only remained to determine the most advantageous moment to strike at the lair of the NATO "branch" in the Lviv region and carefully work out the flight tasks of our hypersonic "Daggers". And, of course, to thoroughly (up to a minute) calculate the take-off time of the Kinzhal carriers (MiG-31 fighters), the launch line of these missiles (without entering the enemy’s air defense zone) and the “instant” of hitting the target.

"Daggers" completed the task

Why were the "Daggers" chosen? Yes, because such a bunker is invulnerable to conventional missiles. And there was no point in sending bombers for strikes even with 1.5-ton or five-ton bombs: the Ukrainians could shoot down the planes, and hitting the "peg" would hardly have happened. And launched even from a distance of 2 thousand kilometers, the “Dagger” (warhead - 500 kg!) Goes to the target at a crazy speed (10 or even 15 times faster than sound!) - while there are no such air defense systems in the world that could intercept it . And also the "Dagger" is a high-precision, sniper weapon - it has a deviation from the center of the target - only 1 meter! He jumped into the "well" of the entrance group for many tens of meters, and after him another ... And this, consider, a ton of explosives!

"The catastrophe of NATO forces in Ukraine"

Of the "teachers and students" who were in the dungeon, no one survived . And there were more than 200 of them. Including, say some "informed" Western journalists, several American generals and senior officers. And also - British, Polish, Ukrainian.

And here is the very “awl from the bag”, which I already mentioned. The Greek portal Pronews , which is close to the Ministry of Defense of its country , claimed that “dozens of foreign officers were killed when the Kinzhal hypersonic missiles hit the joint Ukrainian-NATO command and communications center. This was "a disaster for NATO forces in Ukraine."

And that is not all. Some Kiev sites have also blabbed: after the emergency, representatives of the Ministry of Defense and the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were called to the carpet at the US Embassy , ​​where they were reprimanded "for the poor security of the control center", and at the same time handed over a list of the dead senior and senior American officers and ordered "to get them at least from underground." The corpses of those who died from explosions and suffocated in a frenzy are still being dug up ...

So far, according to the “leaks” in Ukrainian social networks, it can be judged that only 40 bodies have been recovered from under the ruins of the destroyed center. The rest of the dead are still buried under the rubble.

Officially

And here it is impossible not to recall that on March 9, the Russian Ministry of Defense published a modest message on its official Telegram channel stating that in response to the terrorist actions organized by the Kiev regime in the Bryansk region on March 2, the Russian army launched a massive "retaliation strike." The ministry emphasized that the Kinzhal hypersonic missile system was used.

By the way, this "retribution strike", according to the director of the Institute for the Study of National Crises Nikolai Sorokin , had other consequences. He believes that the destruction of the “think tank” of the upcoming Ukrainian offensive could well slow it down. This version has its own reason. The offensive is still delayed. Maybe, according to ritual custom, they wait 40 days from the date of death? ...

But why are the capitals of the NATO countries keeping quiet about the terrible state of emergency? Most likely because they are “ashamed” to admit a biting slap from Moscow . Or because it could be an open recognition of the active participation of NATO troops in the hostilities against Russia.

---

I find it interesting that my speculation earlier that the Kinzhals followed each other in the same hole seems to be confirmed by this article. After all, we learned last year from the demonstration shot at the mercenary camp near the Polish border that the Kinzhal can hit within centimeters of the target.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 17:30 utc | 29

@Petri Krohn | Apr 16 2023 17:17 utc | 26

Ok, you got it before me, well done :-)

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 17:31 utc | 30

...and that bunker which was attacked is in Lviv, northwestern Ukraine, only some 60 kilometers (40 miles) from the Polish border, which seemed safe but wasn't. General Kinzhal changed all that.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 16 2023 17:34 utc | 31

From RT-

…A woman was killed and six other people injured as Kiev targeted Donetsk’s main cathedral, full of worshippers during an Orthodox Easter service.

Ukrainian forces targeted central Donetsk with a barrage of rockets in the early hours of Sunday… The overnight bombardment took place as dozens of Orthodox Christians were leaving the cathedral following an Easter vigil. The explosions prompted several panicked people to drop to the ground, while others, including children, rushed back inside the church to seek shelter, according to videos shared on social media.….

Posted by: Exile | Apr 16 2023 17:39 utc | 32

Petri Krohn # 26

That Dagger strike effectively decapitated the Ukrainian military. While Zelenski might the head of state and theoretically the commander in chief, he has no military experience much less expertise. He would be reliant on professional military officers even if he wasn't on cocaine.

While teleconferences and electronic communications are wonderful, people tend to collaborate best when they can meet in person. This is why the United States has the Pentagon. Perhaps more importantly, the fact that these people were residing in such a super hardened bunker reveals that they were commanding and controlling Ukrainian forces in real time.

There is no doubt that the Ukrainian military has other generals that can command their armies. It is possible that they have alternative command centers with comparable communications. However; it is unlikely that there is another cadre of high ranking military advisers from the US or other countries that can quickly replace those that were killed.

The bottom line is that Ukraine is now incapable of commanding an offensive even if they had sufficient forces. More importantly; Ukraine no longer has the capability to competently command defensive operations in response to a Russian offensive. I seriously doubt that Ukraine posseses a significant strategic offensive force after so many of their precious reserves have been fed to the Bahkmut meat grinder.

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Apr 16 2023 17:47 utc | 33

In other news.

Italy has announced the sale of twenty very old 1960 model M109L SP guns. The old worn out 1960 smooth bore 23 calibre barrels. Only useful in short range direct fire mode. Known for rapid bore and barrel land wear. When using charges three and four maximum range charges. Were actually replaced in 1970. With the later 39 calibre model. The old original USSA designed electro-mechanical fire control computer dated 1948 Korean War vintage surplus. Was removed and replaced with an upgraded more modern second hand cheap 2006 M$ XBOX 360 game computer.

This obsolete rusting in storage Italian model. Is fitted with a FIAT made very special gearbox. Originally designed and fitted to the 1943 FIAT P40 Tank. Fitted with only two forward gears and ten speed reverse rear selector.

The fire sale price is Two Euro's per unit. Refurbishment and mechanical overhaul required at end user end. With rail freight costs paid for by country 404. /s

Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | Apr 16 2023 17:49 utc | 34

Most likely it was multiple Kindjals, one after another, each one digging deeper than the one before. My memory is that at the time, it was announced that Russia had launched six Kindjals. My guess (and that's all it is) is that all six were used on the bunker.

Posted by: William Verick | Apr 16 2023 17:53 utc | 35

On military actions near Artemivsk - Bakhmut. Words of Prigozhin from Wagner The Battle for Artemivsk is recounted by the founder of the Wagner Group - Yevgeny Prigozhin

Posted by: Rob | Apr 16 2023 17:54 utc | 36

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 17:30 utc | 28

One version also said that the first Kinzhal that hit took some of those NASAMS and IRIS-T systems (that were placed around the bunker complex) with it, and probably created some kind of hole for the next one which sealed the deal. One thing I wonder whether they use some kind of hardened material, they must.

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 16 2023 17:56 utc | 37


In other news.

Italy has announced the sale of twenty very old 1960 model M109L SP guns. The old worn out 1960 smooth bore 23 calibre barrels. Only useful in short range direct fire mode. Known for rapid bore and barrel land wear. When using charges three and four maximum range charges. Were actually replaced in 1970. With the later 39 calibre model. The old original USSA designed electro-mechanical fire control computer dated 1948 Korean War vintage surplus. Was removed and replaced with an upgraded more modern second hand cheap 2006 M$ XBOX 360 game computer.

This obsolete rusting in storage Italian model. Is fitted with a FIAT made very special gearbox. Originally designed and fitted to the 1943 FIAT P40 Tank. Fitted with only two forward gears and ten speed reverse rear selector.

The fire sale price is Two Euro's per unit. Refurbishment and mechanical overhaul required at end user end. With rail freight costs paid for by country 404. /s

Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | Apr 16 2023 17:49 utc | 33


Forza Italia !

Posted by: Fabrice | Apr 16 2023 18:02 utc | 38

@unimperator: ~'Claims it is definitely not nuclear, but something new that has been kept secret and has never been used before.'

I heard a speech by Putin (translated) where he referred to such a weapon, saying that it was something the world had never seen the likes of before, and if necessary he would use it.

If I recall correctly, there was some talk of a weapon in development, although can't remember who by, where, when it was used it only killed, actually I think it said evaporated people, all buildings and everything not living was left intact ready for immediate occupation by invading forces.

Posted by: Ken Tucky | Apr 16 2023 18:03 utc | 39

@William Verick | Apr 16 2023 17:53 utc | 34

Agreed. I also remember someone said six.

@unimperator | Apr 16 2023 17:56 utc | 36

Taking out NASAMS and IRIS-T probably didn't matter if you had an incoming train of hypersonic Kinzhals.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 18:07 utc | 40

Petri Krohn | Apr 16 2023 17:17 utc | 26

Thanks for the news, Petri! Good to be a MoA reader. It is incredible that the event, which happened over a month ago, on March 9, and was then covered by Komsomolskaya Pravda, did not make it into the western MSM, or even into RT, which I'm watching on a daily basis. It allows for two possible interpretations:
(1)
the report is bogus, at least the part about the 200 NATO officers that were allegedly killed
(2)
the report is true, but the media machinery that kept us disinformed for over a month is working flawlessly and under full control of the narrative designers... but who are they? How can the media response be so well coordinated?

Posted by: grunzt | Apr 16 2023 18:16 utc | 41

@38 russia has been dropping hints like it's based on new physics principles too. They've also dropped hints that it disables electronics as well.

Iranians have something too. After both strikes against the US and in Iraq a couple years ago there's been curious stories about "severe brain trauma" affecting dozens of people last time,and over a 100 in the Iraq strike. Not dead and not immediate but something has a delayed effect in Iranian missles.

This code brain trauma isn't used elsewhere.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Apr 16 2023 18:35 utc | 42

Forgive me - the publication in Komsomolskaya Pravda was only yesterday, April 15. I did not pay attention. Of course this changes the interpretations completely.

Posted by: grunzt | Apr 16 2023 18:36 utc | 43

When I first heard about the hit on the Lviv region, I automatically thought it had to be either equipment or foreign mercenaries. Didn't realize it was back in March though. If it was NATO personnel I would assume they crossed a red line and this was the response. A classic case of F**k around and find out. Good. Maybe the west will start to realize they picked the wrong kid in the playground to mess with.

Posted by: Watzov | Apr 16 2023 18:38 utc | 44

All hope in the upcoming UAF counteroffensive comes down to a psychological operation to force the Russian troops to flee. We wrote that CIPSO is preparing video / photo materials and narratives for a cognitive campaign, but if we assume that this does not work, then what scenario awaits the APU?

The Financial Times military experts assess the Ukrainian counteroffensive with the task of breaking through the Russian defense lines as "a very high-risk business."

"This requires the teamwork of the entire giant combined arms band. Everyone has to play their part," Nick Gunnell, a former British Royal Engineer officer, who reportedly has extensive experience in breaking through enemy defenses, was quoted by the newspaper.

At the same time, the risks for Ukraine are aggravated by the fact that it does not have air supremacy at the front. Russian aviation will be able to “crush Ukrainian special engineering equipment,” Gunnell believes.

"The classic approach in a ground offensive is to break through behind enemy lines, in one or more areas, and deliver a concentrated attack on the enemy's center of gravity. Successful examples without air supremacy are rare," says another FT expert - Ben Barry, a former commander of a British mechanized battalion infantry.

But still, he cites one exception to this rule: the Israeli attack on Egyptian positions during the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

A typical Russian defense consists of a minefield, a line of anti-tank gouges - concrete pyramids buried in the ground, also known as "dragon's teeth" - then another minefield, a line of trenches and dugouts 400 meters wide and after another 500 meters - an anti-tank ditch, the newspaper writes, noting that it will be difficult to break through all this about the Armed Forces of Ukraine - but recognizing that the Ukrainian army has been underestimated more than once.

“If the Ukrainian attack is powerful and fast and can go behind the Russian lines, then the front will crumble and the Russians will run ... just like they ran during the counter-offensive near Kharkov,” Glen Grant, another retired British officer who advises Defense Committee of the Verkhovna Rada. And if such a flight occurs, then all the trenches and trenches will be useless, he adds.


https://t.me/rezident_ua/17308

Posted by: Down South | Apr 16 2023 18:48 utc | 45

Russia's non-nuke?

@unimperator @17:

"So he claims that they have some kind of weapons of mass destruction that Putin ordered to be used in case of our attack on Crimea, Melitopol and Maruypol. Claims it is definitely not nuclear, but something new that has been kept secret and has never been used before."

@Ken Tucky @38:

"it only killed, evaporated people, all buildings and everything not living was left intact ready for immediate occupation by invading forces."

@Neofeudalfuture @41

"Russia has been dropping hints like it's based on new physics principles too. They've also dropped hints that it disables electronics as well."

Sounds like a massive 2.7 GHz microwave source. I cannot imagine how it could be powered, except by a nuclear blast.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Apr 16 2023 18:49 utc | 46

Actually, I can see perfectly good reasons for taking out the Western air defences around the bunker:

1. To test that you can. The Kinzhal is still in its battlefield testing stage, given how few have been fired. If 6 were used, perhaps 3 were on the air defence and 3 on the bunker?

2. To ensure the bunker busting strike goes in as planned.

3. To destroy these systems, which are an obstacle to Russian air supremacy over Ukraine.

4. To give the West's military a dash of reality sauce.

@Bad Deal Motors On: LOL!!

Posted by: JulianJ | Apr 16 2023 18:50 utc | 47

gruntz @ 42

A lot of people must be involved retrieving bodies. If it's true (not saying it isn't) surely we would have names by now?

Posted by: dh | Apr 16 2023 18:52 utc | 48

@Elmer Fudd

"The bottom line is that Ukraine is now incapable of commanding an offensive even if they had sufficient forces."

I think you are correct, the Ukrainian leadership, munitions and trained troops are all gone. But is all lost for Ukraine? Not if the MEDIA NARRATIVE is what you are interested in and hope to manipulate:

TET OFFENSIVE - VIETNAM - 1968

Although the initial attacks stunned the allies, causing them to lose control of several cities temporarily, they quickly regrouped, beat back the attacks, and inflicted heavy casualties on PAVN/VC forces.

The offensive had a strong effect on the U.S. government and shocked the U.S. public, which had been led to believe by its political and military leaders that the North Vietnamese were being defeated and incapable of launching such an ambitious military operation; American public support for the war declined as a result of the Tet casualties and the ramping up of draft calls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive

My guess is that this is the slender reed that the Neocons in the West are clinging to. Nothing else seems to make any logical sense. IMHO

Posted by: Rokossovsky | Apr 16 2023 18:57 utc | 49

Nick Gunnell, a former British Royal Engineer officer, who reportedly has extensive experience in breaking through enemy defenses,

extensive experience - Gunnel must be at least 180 years old, since the last time the English Army broke through fully prepared defenses was around 1856

The article also describes a linear style of defensive lines that hasn‘t been used by any military since the 1930s. These English experts might do well to study the Red Army‘s defense in depth for Kursk 1943.

Honestly - these officers are embarrassing.

Posted by: Exile | Apr 16 2023 19:09 utc | 50

@ Petri Krohn | Apr 16 2023 17:17 utc | 26

Could this have been NATO LANDCOM or a serious forward operational detachment thereof (again)?

They've already lucked out in Crimea and Mariupol (I wonder who the RF bagged first in the one and then the second).

Posted by: John Kennard | Apr 16 2023 19:14 utc | 51

Posted by: grunzt | Apr 16 2023 18:16 utc | 40

"the media machinery that kept us disinformed for over a month is working flawlessly and under full control of the narrative designers... but who are they? How can the media response be so well coordinated?"

The media are controlled by a handfull of owners who are following orders from western security. Everybody else just works there. Also they rely for foreign news on an even smaller number of news agencies, mainly Reuters and AP, for foreign news. These too are controlled by western intelligence and in any case they just repeat what Ukrainian intelligence tells them.

Posted by: Johnny Conspiranoid | Apr 16 2023 19:17 utc | 52

Like all the posters here, one hopes that the rumor of the destruction of the bunker that the Kinzhals caused is accurate -- BUT, if six with 1000 kgs of explosives were employed on the exact same spot, the first explosion would have created a huge crater. which by itself should have been easily available to be photographed from space -- why no photos?

Would the second strike cause an explosion that displaced yet more earth and widened the crater? ... and so on for each of the following four -- the crater should have been gigantic -- photos?

Given that the hole above the bunker only had to be deep enough to weaken the earth above the ceiling and not the entire 100 metres (let us say 90 metres), was it be physically possible for those Kinzhals to have descended to such a depth? -- for those metrically-challenged, that converts to 330 feet -- the height of a 33 storey building

'Spidey sense' says no.

Posted by: chet380 | Apr 16 2023 19:17 utc | 53

“If the Ukrainian attack is powerful and fast and can go behind the Russian lines, then the front will crumble and the Russians will run ... just like they ran during the counter-offensive near Kharkov,” Glen Grant, another retired British officer who advises Defense Committee of the Verkhovna Rada. And if such a flight occurs, then all the trenches and trenches will be useless, he adds.

Posted by: Down South | Apr 16 2023 18:48 utc | 44


He blew his cover by comparing to Kharkov/Balakleya events. Well, yes, the Russians ran in the face of 1:10 disadvantage or even more. And even then, Izyum was held for weeks with a very small token force against much larger ukie force, and only abandoned in the threat of semi-encirclement. I don't think that will be the case by far anywhere, going forward. Don't even start about Kherson.

The only way Nato can win is if everyone, including Russians and Chinese believe their BS and bluffs.

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 16 2023 19:26 utc | 54

Russian Hypersonic Missile Incapacitated Underground Bunker Designed to Store Nuclear Weapons

Known under the names “Ivano-Frankivsk-16” or “Object 711,” it is situated in the Carpathian mountains at a depth of several tens of meters underground. Presumably it is hardened enough to take the impact of a direct bomb or missile attack.

The underground facility continues to be used by the Ukrainian military as a heavily fortified ammunition depot; after the transfer of nuclear weapons from Delyatyn to Russia in 1993.

“Since 2018, the 108th and 109th mountain assault battalions of the 10th separate mountain assault brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine have been based there,” the report said.

Another report …

The Greek publication claims that the Russian hypersonic missile "Dagger" hit the underground NATO command bunker in Ukraine

The Greek Internet publication Pronews published an article in which it reports a “terrible” strike by a Russian hypersonic missile “Dagger” on a NATO underground command bunker in Ukraine. It follows from the publication that the command post was located at a depth of about 130 meters, it housed a joint Ukrainian-NATO control and communications center.

In total, according to the publication, about 300 people permanently lived in the bunker. Most of them are British and Poles, but there were also Americans and representatives of private companies responsible for organizing communications and data transmission.

The author claims that this is the first such effective strike against the headquarters with foreign specialists and NATO military personnel. Such a statement raises doubts about the reliability of the information, because, as you know, last year the RF Armed Forces already inflicted a defeat on a well-protected command post of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Chasov Yar area of the DPR using the Dagger complex. This was officially announced on April 11 by the Russian Ministry of Defense. True, at that time it was not specified whether there were foreign military personnel and specialists there.

Posted by: Oui | Apr 16 2023 19:34 utc | 55

Posted by: chet380 | Apr 16 2023 19:17 utc | 51

Here's a picture that was presented in conjunction with the report in TG about the Kinzhal strike. Whether it's an actual picture of the strike or not I don't know, but it seems to be taken from satellite, depicting an explosion. Well, I guess it's impossible to tell what it is.

https://pic.rutubelist.ru/video/f0/64/f06403bf8238000c19632f910f547178.jpg

Original TG: https://t.me/llordofwar/114981

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 16 2023 19:35 utc | 56

The bodies of 160 NATO officers remain in a bunker in Ukraine.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 15:48 utc | 15

A lot of Triumphalism slipped over into the usual din of bleating ever since this was leaked out.
The killing of many of the D-Day invasion troops by German gunboats days earlier during a mock invasion practice on the south coast of England, didn't become news to the public for years. It was an in-your-face embarrassment to Eisenhower and the rest of the Military and was kept quiet for fear of weakening the troops (who were the spearhead of the invasion starting in a couple of days.)

Posted by: kupkee | Apr 16 2023 19:38 utc | 57

@48

aside from a campaign to mislead the usa public, Vietnam war and usa proxy war in east Europe is the corruption of usa puppets. by 1970 Cronkite figured it out

Posted by: paddy | Apr 16 2023 19:42 utc | 58

I think the horse is dead.

Posted by: Seer | Apr 16 2023 19:47 utc | 59

@Oui | Apr 16 2023 19:34 utc | 53

The first part of your post seems to be very similar to this article in Pravda from August 2022, talking about an attack on March 18 2022.

The Kinzhal missile then struck not just a warehouse, but one of the central storage bases for nuclear weapons, known as Object 711, or Ivano-Frankivsk-16. This object was built in 1955. The level of its protection was enough to withstand a nuclear bomb impact.
See more at https://english.pravda.ru/world/153775-russia_kinzhal_ukraine/

We need to keep the attack last year separate from the latest one in March 9 2023.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 19:48 utc | 60

There is a young woman reporting from the Donbass and apparently she is covering a lot of the rebuilding. Does anyone know her name or where I can find her videos?

I have been searching for video on the rebuilding but the censorship, even if it is just in the search engine is not bringing up anything other than propaganda videos.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 16 2023 19:55 utc | 61

@chet380 | Apr 16 2023 19:17 utc | 51

I believe the stated number of Kinzhals (i.e. Daggers) was 6.
They don't need to penetrate to 100m. They only need to collapse all possible escape routes for several flights/storeys and disable all functional systems (including electrical and mechanical air handling systems, including all backups). The place would be a devastated wreck over a sealed tomb that has been repeatedly shock-waved. Anyone inside is beyond rehabilitation (to put it mildly).

Posted by: Spinworthy | Apr 16 2023 19:55 utc | 62

Posted by: chet380 | Apr 16 2023 19:17 utc | 51

Well, there was another report of the use of a Khinzal to penetrate an underground warehouse at the depth of 150m / 492 feet. Have a look at this article including video of the hit:

https://eurasiantimes.com/dead-meat-kinzhal-hypersonic-missile-that-hit-ukraines-russia/

Posted by: Zet | Apr 16 2023 20:11 utc | 63

chet380 #51

Presuming that the Dagger missiles are accurate enough to impact the crater or craters formed by proceeding missiles, the crater will be transformed into a deep shaft. Once the bunker is penetrated, the kinetic energy as well as explosive energies of subsequent missiles will inflict massive internal damages.

I seriously doubt that it is feasible to recover the carcasses of the personel that resided in the bunker.

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Apr 16 2023 20:14 utc | 64

It is important to verbalize things...German parliamentaries start stating the obvious truth...

https://twitter.com/i/status/1647155782155407361

Posted by: Ghost of Mozgovoy | Apr 16 2023 20:15 utc | 65

We need to keep the attack last year separate from the latest one in March 9 2023.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 19:48 utc | 58

Yes, the strike Oui mentioned is a different one but it shows that Khinzal should be able to penetrate at such depths, see also my post at 61.

Posted by: Zet | Apr 16 2023 20:15 utc | 66

Would the second strike cause an explosion that displaced yet more earth and widened the crater? ... and so on for each of the following four -- the crater should have been gigantic -- photos?

Given that the hole above the bunker only had to be deep enough to weaken the earth above the ceiling and not the entire 100 metres (let us say 90 metres), was it be physically possible for those Kinzhals to have descended to such a depth? -- for those metrically-challenged, that converts to 330 feet -- the height of a 33 storey building
'Spidey sense' says no.

Posted by: chet380 | Apr 16 2023 19:17 utc | 51
It is not necessary to "excavate" the material down to 100 meters. Each Kinsel would break up the rock/material further and further until the last few Kinsels crushed the ceiling or went right through and killed everyone directly. The Kinsels don't need to excavate the earth like they would be digging an open pit coal mine.

Posted by: kupkee | Apr 16 2023 20:16 utc | 67

Gepostet von: Peter AU1 | 16. April 2023 19:55 UTC | 59
.
Alina Lipps
.
https://www.anti-spiegel.ru/2023/teil-3-von-alina-lipps-film-donbass-auf-der-suche-nach-der-wahrheit/

Posted by: mo3 | Apr 16 2023 20:21 utc | 68

Posted by: kupkee | Apr 16 2023 20:16 utc | 65
.
Ah so....you mean the Kinzal has NO bunker breaking properties???
such as the German Taurus ???
.Uh....how naive you are what impact speed and 500 kg of explosives can cause....
Above all speed !!!!
.
Ah so....you mean the Kinzal has NO bunker breaking properties???
such as the German Taurus ???
.Uh....how naive you are what impact speed and 500 kg of explosives can cause....
Above all speed !!!!

Posted by: mo3 | Apr 16 2023 20:28 utc | 69

"...fitted with a FIAT made very special gearbox. Originally designed and fitted to the 1943 FIAT P40 Tank. Fitted with only two forward gears and ten speed reverse rear selector.

The fire sale price is Two Euro's per unit. [shipping charges apply]"

Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | Apr 16 2023 17:49 utc | 33

FIAT tanks... Current government in Italy is a pro- and anti-Russian coalition, supplying FIAT tanks may be an elegant compromise.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Apr 16 2023 20:29 utc | 70

Taurus =
.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_(Marschflugk%C3%B6rper)

Posted by: mo3 | Apr 16 2023 20:29 utc | 71

FIAT tanks... Current government in Italy is a pro- and anti-Russian coalition, supplying FIAT tanks may be an elegant compromise.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Apr 16 2023 20:29 utc | 68
.
Pro anti-Russian !!!
Yes
And since this government says so, it is for the rest of the EU ---- NO more fascist...... Oh miracle !!!
But yes !!
These Italians are friends of the NAZI Badereas

Posted by: mo3 | Apr 16 2023 20:33 utc | 72

Whatever inspired the Daily Mail to publish this ?

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Apr 16 2023 13:58 utc | 2

Peter Hitchens writing in today's Mail is right on the money. He is usually a lone voiy, but there seems to be some momentuum building now.

Posted by: jamesh | Apr 16 2023 20:33 utc | 73

Wikipedia on Kinzhal:

"If it strikes with a mass of 2,000 kg (4,400 lb), including 500 kg warhead, and at a speed of Mach 12, the Kinzhal has more than 16.9 gigajoules of kinetic energy excluding detonation, the equivalent of 4,000 kg of TNT."

"why no photos?" Because no one wants to print them?

"Would the second strike cause an explosion that displaced yet more earth and widened the crater? ... and so on for each of the following four -- the crater should have been gigantic -- photos?"

More likely the second and subsequent explosions take place at the bottom of the existing pit - less displaced earth above ground and less crater expansion. Without pics, who knows? And again, who is motivated to show pics? Certainly not Ukraine or the West. Would Russia, given its desire to manage Western over-reaction?

Your "Spidey-sense" is called mere speculation where I come from...

I asked ChatGPT several questions about this, but went round and round with it forgetting the parameters I specified in the last query. I kept having to remind it of the depth of the bunker, that the bunker was hardened concrete, and that there were six missiles, not just one.

The best answer it gave was that after six missiles, the crater would be up to 1000 feet in diameter, but couldn't estimate the depth of the hole.

I then asked it if each subsequent explosion would make the hole deeper, not necessarily wider. It agreed:

Assuming the six missiles hit at the same spot, would not each subsequent explosion merely dig the hole deeper, not necessarily wider?

Yes, you are correct. Each subsequent explosion would primarily deepen the hole rather than widen it. The initial explosion would create a crater with a certain diameter, and subsequent explosions at the same spot would likely create a deeper crater within the same diameter, rather than creating a wider crater.

Finally, I got an answer that seems reasonable:

Given your last answer, and assuming your previous crater width answer was around 421 feet, what would be the expected depth of the hole after six missile impacts and explosions?

Assuming the six missile impacts occur at the same spot and create a crater with a diameter of around 421 feet (128.3 meters), and each subsequent explosion primarily deepens the hole rather than widening it, we can estimate the expected depth of the resulting hole.

Based on the previous calculations, a single missile impact with a total energy release of 9.07392 x 10^11 joules would create a crater with a depth of approximately 39.9 meters (131 feet) in rocky soil at a depth of 91.44 meters (300 feet).

Assuming each subsequent explosion deepens the hole by a similar amount, we can estimate the depth of the hole after six missile impacts and explosions as:

Depth of the hole = initial depth + (depth increase per explosion x number of explosions)

Depth of the hole = 39.9 meters + (39.9 meters x 5) = 239.4 meters or 785.4 feet

Therefore, the expected depth of the hole after six missile impacts and explosions, assuming each subsequent explosion primarily deepens the hole, would be around 239.4 meters (785.4 feet). However, the actual depth of the hole would depend on various factors, such as the specific characteristics of the bunker and its construction, the distance from the explosion, and the hardness of the soil and rock at the target site.

So apparently it's possible for six Kinzhal missile strikes to create a hole deep enough to destroy the bunker - if you ask ChatGPT the right questions! Otherwise it runs around calculating the crater width and gives up boilerplate about how it doesn't know enough about the parameters of the soil, the bunker, etc.

Note that its calculation of the joules is much bigger than the Wikipedia figure of 16.8 gigajoules:

With the updated parameters of a missile with a mass of 2,000 kg, a speed of Mach 12, and an impact equivalent to 4,000 kg of TNT, we can make some further calculations.

First, let's calculate the kinetic energy of the missile using the formula:

KE = 1/2 * m * v^2

where KE is the kinetic energy, m is the mass, and v is the velocity. Plugging in the values, we get:

KE = 1/2 * 2000 kg * (343.2 m/s * 12)^2
KE = 1/2 * 2000 kg * 148,118,784 joules
KE = 148,118,784,000 joules or 148.1 gigajoules

Can't believe I wasted half an hour on this...

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 16 2023 20:36 utc | 74

Posted by: Zet | Apr 16 2023 20:11 utc | 61

Hi Zet ... just watched that video and I say no. Quite certain its a video I watched about 8-10+ months ago. UP until that that point there were no mentions of Kinzhals apart from the one used early on to take out the foreign fighter group just outside the Polish boarder. The context of this video was that a shopping centre was hit and the Russians were blamed for targeting civilians. It was one of those claims that were broadcast widely on UK mainstream media. The video was released I think to add validity to the Russian counter claim that the hit was on a legitimate military target.

Note that the surveillance is tracking a vehicle.

This was the vehicle containing the Ukrainian team following a missile/artillery launch which had retreated to an undergo car park next to the shopping centre but were tracked as they did so. I believe at the time I read that the underground car park was used as a military store.

Also pretty sure that the start of the video is missing as I seem to remember that the vehicle was tracked from the firing site.

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | Apr 16 2023 20:38 utc | 75

Regarding Russia's hypersonic Kinzhal missile, does anyone here remember Robert Heinlein's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress?

Spoiler alert!

The Moon was inhabited, and the residents rebelled against domination from the great powers of Earth. They gained control of a mass driver* that was normally used for delivering wheat to Earth to instead send rocks at terminal velocity at defense installations on Earth's surface. At one point there was a conversation about sending more rocks at Cheyenne Mountain, which covered an underground defense installation, presumably an improved version of the one we have today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne_Mountain_Complex

The AI launching the rocks said it had ceased doing so, and when asked why replied, "Because it's not there anymore". So yeah, the destructive power of hypersonic weapons has long been known, and Heinlein understood the physics behind their effectiveness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_Is_a_Harsh_Mistress

*Also used in the SF TV show Babylon 5, to horrific effect.

Centauri Use Mass Drivers Against the Narn

https://youtu.be/Nj6t53kUAmo

Posted by: Babel-17 | Apr 16 2023 20:38 utc | 76

@Petri Krohn | Apr 16 2023 18:49 utc | 45

Sounds like a massive 2.7 GHz microwave source. I cannot imagine how it could be powered, except by a nuclear blast.
I wonder if it is the same as this:
"The new Russian electronic warfare (EW) system is capable of suppressing spacecraft in geostationary orbit and irrevocably disable electronics,"

— Elon Musk https://t.me/ZandVchannel/60663

But how can Elon Musk know this? Some of his spacecraft in geostationary orbit already stopped working? Mind you, geostationary orbit is very far away, about 6.6 Earth radii.


Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 20:45 utc | 77

Posted by: jamesh | Apr 16 2023 20:33 utc | 71

But right below is this beauty. A masterpiece in mis-attribution:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11978187/Russia-bombs-church-Ukraine-Putin-huge-security-team-attend-service-Moscow.html?ico=related-replace

Posted by: Milton | Apr 16 2023 20:47 utc | 78

Well, whatever the case re. bunker hit, everyone can take consolation in the fact that it was a Soviet built command bunker. It was a reserve command post for the Transcarpathian military district, actually. Which are the toughest in the world. The western, especially whatever built post-1990 aren't probably as tough. There might be some in the mountains in Norway, but anywhere else there really isn't.

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 16 2023 20:48 utc | 79

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 16 2023 20:48 utc | 77

Meaning Nato stuff further west are easier to take out.

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 16 2023 20:51 utc | 80

@Richard Steven Hack | Apr 16 2023 20:36 utc | 72

That AI silliness is pure nonsense. You can ask leading questions it until you get the answer you want, like you did.

The important question is obviously the local ground conditions. Granite or black Ukrainian soil all the way down? Most likely this is in a mountainous area with bedrock.

The important question to ask is: Where exactly did this happen? Then one can consult the local geology etc.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 20:53 utc | 81

Slightly off-topic but the war inspired me to paint a picture – not sure if I like it but here you go:

https://cln.sh/cV888RPL

Posted by: Zet | Apr 16 2023 20:54 utc | 82

Donbass Devushka got uncovered and is in a WSJ article?

Be careful out there guys, especially my fellow Americans. It's getting real.

Posted by: LGB! | Apr 16 2023 20:57 utc | 83

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 20:53 utc | 79

I did specify rocky ground of the type found in Western Ukraine. I don't know if ChatGPT actually knows what that is, however, as it didn't specify it in its answer.

I do think the estimate of the cumulative effect of six Kinzhal impacts in the same place is approximately correct, albeit subject to many corrections based on more precise parameters of ground, bunker construction, etc. ChatGPT got that part right - it's impossible to be sure without precise data.

But clearly it's within the realm of possibility that six Kinzhals could destroy a bunker 300 feet deep. Presumably the Russians knew that or they wouldn't have tried. I assume Russian computers are quite capable of making those calculations, which is something everyone appears to have forgotten - particularly since the Russians actually BUILT that bunker in the first place and presumably know exactly everything about it, from ground composition to bunker construction details.

The only people who don't know the answers to this question are...people at MoA. Who nonetheless want to make assertive answers, as usual.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 16 2023 21:03 utc | 84

IIRC, there was a posting that implied (translations can leave things open to interpretation) that the arrogance of those at the bunker led them to exposing the opening to it, both visually and physically, and that two Kinzhal missiles, one right behind the other, were able to navigate into that opening, and proceed well into the structure before detonating. If that is even close to being true, then I could imagine the blast wave traveling throughout, and imitating secondary explosions, before causing the structure to collapse in on itself.

Posted by: Babel-17 | Apr 16 2023 21:05 utc | 85

@Babel-17 | Apr 16 2023 20:38 utc | 74

Regarding Russia's hypersonic Kinzhal missile, does anyone here remember Robert Heinlein's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress?
I used to read a lot of Sci-Fi back in the day, including Robert Heinlein.

But that title brings another memory. Jazz singer Radka Toneff: Moon's a Harsh Mistress. I saw her live a couple of times.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 21:07 utc | 86

R S Hack @ 72

Thx for yr exhaustive and informative research re the Kinzhals that has 90% convinced of the possibility of success, but 10% of niggling doubt remains.

Posted by: chet380 | Apr 16 2023 21:09 utc | 87

mo3 | Apr 16 2023 20:21 utc | 66

Thanks.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 16 2023 21:11 utc | 88

Here's a "fact check" that a strike on an underground NATO command center didn't happen. Included is the suggested questioning of having a control center in vulnerable Ukraine so close to NATO's Poland.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 16 2023 21:12 utc | 89

Re. Posted by: Babel-17 on Apr 16 2023 20:38 # 74

I always liked Heinlein's work because he was writing science fiction. He always included some science with his fiction. I have often thought of that book when the Kinzhal is mentioned.
One thing about the bunker strike is it was probably built by the Soviets and remained mostly the same after they defenestrated Ukraine. The schematics were likely available to the targeting planners. It is possible this bunker not only went down but was also dug laterally. This could account for using six missiles to cover a wider footprint underground. There could (should) also have been more than one entrance or exit. Three missiles at two target locations would generate the depth needed to demilitarize the location.

Posted by: Quid Me Vexare | Apr 16 2023 21:16 utc | 90

@Richard Steven Hack | Apr 16 2023 21:03 utc | 82

But clearly it's within the realm of possibility that six Kinzhals could destroy a bunker 300 feet deep. Presumably the Russians knew that or they wouldn't have tried. I assume Russian computers are quite capable of making those calculations, which is something everyone appears to have forgotten - particularly since the Russians actually BUILT that bunker in the first place and presumably know exactly everything about it, from ground composition to bunker construction details.
Sure, the Russians know the important details. They are able to make proper calculations based on geology, structural strength in combination with kinetic energy and explosive power et cetera. I don't doubt they could do it.

The company where I work spent a lot of money following the AI hype, even on problems that had much better traditional solutions. This case is kind of parallel.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 21:16 utc | 91

Re the bunker busting.

First time Kinzal was used it busted a similar bunker that as far as I recall was used to store Tochka missiles. Only one Kinzal was used as far as anyone was aware.

In thinking about it, a solid penetrator warhead would be like a shaped charge and if it comes to vertical at very high hypersonic speeds, most the kinetic energy would be directed would be focused down in a narrow in a narrow lens. Just a five or ten ton gravity bunker buster can penetrate to great depths but for that you need a plane flying overhead to do it.

The Kinzal is more akin to a sabot anti tank round.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 16 2023 21:21 utc | 92

Macedonian helicopter on way to Ukraine
https://www.minareport.com/macedonian-helicopters-on-their-way-to-ukraine/

Posted by: MiniMo | Apr 16 2023 21:22 utc | 93

@ Richard Steven Hack | Apr 16 2023 20:36 utc | 72

Ouch! Stop spreading nonsense, please.

Impact velocity = burn-out velocity? Most likely not. Kinetic energy transfer of the impactor into bedrock? Mechanism unknown to you and anyone else not being a member of the design and evaluation team. Sectional density of the impactor? Unknown. 500kg penetrator warhead = 250kg explosive payload at max. ..... and on, and on .........

Hint: redo the calculation too.


Posted by: Hmpf | Apr 16 2023 21:37 utc | 94

re: ChatGPT - https://theconversation.com/chatgpt-cant-lie-to-you-but-you-still-shouldnt-trust-it-201127 (it isn't to be trusted)

Kinda funny actually. I normally would have posted this in the O/T but it's not being discussed there, so...

Used that site the other day to write a portion of a proposal on the design and construction of a building. You've got to invest some time and effort in providing the right context and more importantly factual details that may not be available out on the webz, but if you can do that it'll spit out some pretty darn acceptable narratives.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 16 2023 21:38 utc | 95

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 16 2023 21:16 utc | 89

I've never been impressed by the AI hype. It comes up every twenty years or so, then dies down when the actual profit doesn't match the hype.

Still, these LLM (and less so the generative) have real valid uses. Just having this sort of Q&A available is much better than a simple Google search - as long as one is aware of how to shape prompts so as to get an accurate answer. The questioner has to be more precise than the AI, in essence. It's more like interrogating someone than just asking a question.

And one has to be aware of possible bad choices in the response. For instance, in my questioning, I asked ChatGPT about the effects of 500kg of explosives in addition to the kinetic impact of the Kinzhal. It for some reason converted that to 500,000 kg and gave a wrong answer. When I corrected it, it did it right the second time. This error is something most humans would not have done because it conceptually made no sense. Humans could do a typo like that, but unlikely to do so in conversation.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 16 2023 21:43 utc | 96

Some say the recently leaked NATO docs came from that Kinzhal strike. Somehow the Russians got their hands on that intel and leaked it to the West.
Plausible or not?

Posted by: Adam Troy | Apr 16 2023 21:44 utc | 97

Posted by: Hmpf | Apr 16 2023 21:37 utc | 92

I'll ignore all that since it's bullshit already covered by the rest of the discussion.

Another example of people making assertions with zero comprehension of the discussion.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 16 2023 21:45 utc | 98

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Apr 16 2023 21:38 utc | 93

Yup. Got to be as precise as possible, or it will either give a wrong answer or give you a run-around about how it can't answer the question.

A lot like people in that respect, which is no surprise given it was trained by people on people's statements. But it's still no where near being an intelligence capable of true conceptualization. That won't exist until nanotech enables examination of the human brain on a cellular level at scale in real time - which is likely several decades away, at least.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 16 2023 21:48 utc | 99

As important as the Kinzhal hits on the bunker were, the most important bombardment happened earlier today it Donetsk at the main Cathedral after Easter services as reported upthread. That proves the urgent political goal of pushing the Ukies back so they aren't able to hit such targets has yet to be met, and IMO will generate repercussions since the urgent aspect doesn't seem to have been made clear enough.

Now I know it can't be said that the Russian's are toying around with the Ukies in Bakhmut and Adeevka, but at the same time it seems clear that not enough weight is being applied and thus the progress is too slow. Unfortunately, the weather will continue to be rainy in the Donetsk area for the next 7-10 days after the dry weather of today and tomorrow. May offers further improvement, but periods of rain are still expected just not as frequently. New mine clearing devices have started to arrive at the FEBA, but there needs to be coordination with their employment and suppression of the Ukie's means for laying mines via artillery. That issue and the reportedly dense anti-tank weapon environment have been put forth as the reasons for the very slow advance. Recent narratives circulated by Russian media are reporting thusly. I understand the Go Slow, but many are tired of waiting for an end to the terrorizing, which is why it's become a political issue. Russia's Security Council met last Friday in a session where no information was provided, although I'm certain that political issue was discussed.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 16 2023 21:50 utc | 100

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