Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 7, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-84

Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Comments

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 9 2023 8:00 utc | 282
Thanks for that Norwegian. Good news about Wagenknact’s rising support in Germany. Do you know anything about MP Sevim Dağdelen? Is she allied with Wagenknact? Do they work together?
Here’s a link to Ben Norton’s interview with Dagdelen.
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2023/03/31/germany-us-soldiers-nuclear-weapons/

Posted by: migueljose | Apr 9 2023 11:42 utc | 301

Vesti published an article on the Minsk agreements, from which one can understand that Russia will never incline anymore to this kind of talks with the Western elites https://www.vesti.ru/article/3293851
Why Russia believed in the Minsk agreements
Western leaders one after another admit that they were not going to fulfill the Minsk agreements and were simply playing for time to improve the position of Kyiv, which took advantage of this in order to arrange a massacre in the Donbass.
“We have repeatedly encountered lies – they say one thing, do another, mean a third,” confirms the chairman of the Federation Council of the Russian Federation Valentina Matvienko.
And these confessions – both Merkel and Hollande, that they have been fooling us all these 8 years, instead of forcing Ukraine to peace, to sit down at the negotiating table with their own people, they used this time to saturate Ukraine with weapons and prepare an armed attack on territory of Donbass, Crimea.
“Therefore, today it has become even more obvious that a special military operation was simply inevitable. And if such a decision had not been made, the consequences would have been catastrophic for us,” Matviyenko said.
“Why did we believe them?” Pavel Zarubin, author and co-host of the Moscow. Kremlin. Putin program, asked the speaker of the Federation Council . The journalist posted a fragment of the program in his telegram channel ZARUBIN.
Well, you know, this is probably in the soul of our people: how we do it, we believe that others do it. We believed, seriously.
“Heads of state, serious negotiations, you remember how many times the leaders of states met in the Normandy format. And yet they hoped that these were serious politicians, and they understood the responsibility for the consequences. But they suspected that this was not sincere, and they understood “that if they wanted peace talks, they would have forced Kiev. No, on the contrary, they called on Kiev to prepare for an armed seizure of territories and did everything to strengthen the armed forces,” Matviyenko said.

Posted by: Oblomovka daydream | Apr 9 2023 11:44 utc | 302

@migueljose | Apr 9 2023 11:42 utc | 302
Sorry, I do not know German politics, except I have noticed the obvious lunatics. I have noticed Wagenknecht appears different so if she can get some support it would be helpful.

Posted by: Norwegian | Apr 9 2023 11:55 utc | 303

⚡️🇷🇺🇺🇦🇺🇳 On the Inclusion of the Old City of #Odessa in the List of UNESCO protected Sites⚡️
UNESCO Director-General Audrey Azoulay visited #Odessa a few days ago. The high-ranking UN representative presented a certificate confirming that the centre of the Old City of #Odessa has become a World Heritage Site under UN protection.
However, there is a nuance to this situation. The area designated by the UN Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization is much smaller than the actual boundaries of the historic centre of #Odessa, the socalled ‘South Palmyra’.
🔹Why did this happen?
The United Nations and its subordinate institutions have long ceased to act as independent bodies for the maintenance of international peace and security. The UN has definitively become a partisan structure that is totally ineffective and has lost its objectivity.
Specifically in the case of #Odessa, it should be noted which zone was selected by UNESCO for protection. The UN protection includes the Odessa Merchant Sea Port and the adjacent infrastructure, which includes Shipyard #2 and the railway station.
In addition, civilian infrastructure near the port, such as administration buildings, educational institutions and various hotels and hotels – all of which could be used to house certain people and store important cargo – has also been placed under protection.
🔹But why couldn’t the whole Old Town be put under guard?
Western countries are deeply indifferent to what happens to #Ukraine, its cities and population – they all act as bargaining chips in a global plan to weaken #Russia. The protection of #Odessa’s historical heritage is of little interest to the US-controlled United Nations.
The UNESCO head has only fulfilled her mission to symbolise the territory of Odessa port, which is important for the “Western partners” as a logistic hub from #Europe to #Ukraine and backwards.
Ships under the guise of a grain deal deliver essential military cargoes to #Ukraine via the corridor, and take out all the most valuable stuff in #Ukraine on the way back. And the rail link near the sea harbour makes it much easier to deliver both ways.
📌 As with the officially designated restrictions on 👉 media personnel in southern #Ukraine, such actions only highlight what the Ukrainian authorities and Western countries are trying to shield from outside scrutiny and protect from Russian military strikes.
Such actions on the part of UNESCO do not provide any guarantees of protection against missile attacks, but in case of strikes on the port infrastructure or any hotel in this area, the collective West will instantly accuse #Russia of purposeful destruction of “important for the whole world historical objects”.
The fact that these hotels are used for accommodation of foreign mercenaries and the seaport itself for transportation of arms and other important cargo is just a nuance that European and US average citizens are not particularly interested in.

https://t.me/sitreports/6952

Posted by: Down South | Apr 9 2023 12:01 utc | 304

… their training programme is extremely limited and generic …
Posted by: Milites | Apr 9 2023 11:36 utc | 301

Western military strategists are indifferent to Ukrainian casualties, western financial strategists range from indifferent to desirous, western geopolitical strategists are absolutely desirous of Ukrainian casualties.
Noxious propaganda, crumby weapons, training, command. It is not by accident that Ukrainian conscripts are being transported en masse to a concentration camp masquerading as a front line.

Posted by: anon2020 | Apr 9 2023 12:59 utc | 305

Norwegian | Apr 9 2023 8:00 utc | 282
The most surprising thing (if true) is that such polls may be published. I hope it is true, since Wagenknecht is the only German politician I have heard of recently that is not insane.

I don’t know about you but I don’t expect anything from elections (anymore). In this sense, Wagenknecht doing her stuff and getting mainstream media reports (including the usual smearing, just recently another one about her “outrageous income” from being a successful author) could be just fig-leafing. Good, moderate citizens can think, “oh, can’t be so bad if extreme opinions like Wagenknecht’s are still presented”.
Sarah Wagenknecht tried to set up a non-parliamentarian movement “Aufstehen” some years ago. The goal was to push the potentially “left” parties (The Left, SPD, Greens) to the left, mostly on social issues. I was active in our local group for the whole year that it lasted, and it was a failure.
There are some more prominent voices in Germany speaking up against the war, and Germany’s war contributions. Apart from some artists, authors etc., there are politician on the fringes: a few from Wagenknecht’s Left party (which may split up soon) and quite a few from the AfD (“Alternative für Deutschland”), usually stamped as right-wing, nationalist, populist etc. — many European countries have such parties. Party leader Tino Chrupalla gave one of the most convincing anti-war comments I’ve seen. It’s all a bit confusing because the old left/right patterns don’t work anymore.
Comparing with Norway: you’ve probably seen the reports about Rødt party members speaking up *against* getting out from NATO. I didn’t follow if that’s the official Rødt line these days but the German Left party was exactly like this: the only anti-NATO party in parliament, and they’ve slowly succumbed to “reality”. Gotta defend against Putin’s aggression etc., you all know the deal.

cirsium | Apr 9 2023 10:51 utc | 297
The Polish football club “Shlensk” was fined 15,000 zlotys because fans displayed a banner saying “To nie nasza wojna” (this is not our war) with Bandera symbols crossed out at a local match on 28 February. I saw a photograph of the incident. I also saw a brief clip of a Polish farmer throwing eggs at the public meeting of the Polish government with representatives of Czechia and Lithuania. He was protesting at the import of cheap Ukrainian grain.

Good to hear about that, thanks for telling us! Appoximately 3000€: much more than a symbolic fine. I don’t follow any sports but I’ve seen on several occasions that (supposedly uneducated / proletarian) football fans had a better grip on reality than intellectuals, students and so on. Not going all working class romanticism here but I can witness that Gleichschaltung is strong in the academic system.
Eggs thrown at the Polish minister for agriculture (who later resigned, right?) made it into my bubble. I concur. Needs more eggs.

Posted by: Konami | Apr 9 2023 13:20 utc | 306

@Down South 305
interesting.
Such matter would of course suggest more in-depth comparison with other examples.
And then the timing of the decision.
Is it pure interpretation by the authors or is it a true case of abuse of power politics.
As was e.g. ignoring US soldiers looting Iraq in both wars (think “THREE KINGS” the 1999 movie with Wahlberg, Clooney) in contrast the international outcry over the destruction of Bamiyan Buddha statues by the Taliban in 2001.
And many other examples.
p.s. in this category would also belong, as I recall Noam Chomsky said many years ago, that UNICEF was virtually destroyed by the US.
conflation of the art world and politics…
aesthetics vs. politics…
have a good Sunday everyone.
Easter cartoon from the New Yorker:
https://www.newyorker.com/cartoons/daily-cartoon/friday-april-7th-easter-walrus

Posted by: AG | Apr 9 2023 13:24 utc | 307

Just watched a Lancet strike on a Gvozdika SPG that was in a hide, but it’s track marks clearly showed where it was hiding.
Posted by: Milites | Apr 9 2023 11:36 utc | 301
The positions perhaps are meant to be temporary only. One doesn’t have time to hose those marks off.

Posted by: Catilina | Apr 9 2023 14:24 utc | 308

@ migueljose, §300; §302; Norwegian, §304:
Wagenknecht should team up with Cristina Anderson of the AfD. Wagenknecht and Anderson are much closer to each other than either are to their parties – like all good independents!

Posted by: John Marks | Apr 9 2023 14:39 utc | 309

@ Konami, §307:
Very important point, Konami!
The Voldemort Mafia are going for the proles – because they vote (ha! ha!)!
They mostly do it through press, telly and films.
Fool most of the people some of the time . . .

Posted by: John Marks | Apr 9 2023 14:46 utc | 310

@ Konami | Apr 9 2023 13:20 utc | 307
i agree with you… what does the term ”Gleichschaltung” mean?

Posted by: james | Apr 9 2023 15:32 utc | 311

Gleichschaltung is one of the Third Reich terms that’s sometimes used in English too. The wikipedia entry is good enough.
For a lot of people, comparing the current situation (now: war propaganda and Russia hate, before: Covid scare) to the darkest time of Germany is illegitime, immoral, populist etc. I disagree. I now believe that the underlying mass-psychological mechanisms are very similar, and that the West is far advanced in its current totalitarian spiral. Hence “Gleichschaltung”, the concept of subordinating all parts of society under one goal. This includes academia (we’ve seen this clearly during corona), the arts (pick your favourite actors/authors/musicians and check what they said about corona/Ukraine — the vast majority is in line), obviously the media and schools…
It’s gotten to the point that I dimly recall from Eastern times that were clearly authoritarian: if I meet persons I didn’t know before, such as new colleagues or neighbours, and I don’t know yet about their political backgound, then I will never say what I think. I’ll listen and I’m careful, and I have to assume that they (a) follow the party line [that’s wording from good old Eastern times but it fits very well today] and (b) wouldn’t even understand what I meant if I said my opinion. All I can do is try and inject tiny pieces of counter-information. (Example from yesterday: someone says “Macron is right and the French pension system needs this update”. I only mentioned the profits of the large French companies.)

Posted by: Konami | Apr 9 2023 15:51 utc | 312

@ Konami | Apr 9 2023 15:51 utc | 313
thank you… i think the comparison you make is very legit… i also like your example at the end… i feel fortunate to know that other people in other places far away from where i live on vancouver island – are seeing what is unfolding on the planet, or at least in western societies – in a similar manner to me..

Posted by: james | Apr 9 2023 17:08 utc | 313

Boeing is cranking out GPS + LG add-on bmob tailets, sensors and electronics for extending their strike range, even building ‘bmoblets’ similar to RPGs, but with tailets for wider-range drops. Ground-and-pound is moving back towards flying drop-kicks as retreat defense, because the central bank failures and woke economic collapse can’t allow Kyiv indulgences.
Meanwhile, Mexico’s being arm-twisted to allow GMOs, in the event Ukraine’s Bayer-Monsanto GMO agriculture leases as a trojan-horse EU-admission fails to subvert EU’s GMO rejection. Of course, Russia won’t allow Bayer-Monsanto GMO’s. Bayer will likely have to dump in South America, destroying local farm collectives, then increasing human migration to ‘El Norte’.
Imagine how the herstorians will twist this ‘War of GMOs & LNG Pipelines’ into papal dogma about Good vers Evil, and the Need to Obey through Dispensations of CBDC and Carbon Tithes. Then some ‘Red Line’ will be crossed in the the M.E. until 27 Minutes of Criss-Cross ICBMs makes the Southern Hemisphere suddenly more attractive as a Synthetic Investment Vehicle.

Posted by: Chip Herman | Apr 9 2023 18:38 utc | 314

@Down South | Apr 9 2023 12:01 utc | 305
I’ve suspected that RF, after taking the Zaporizhzhia, would continue through the parts of Kherson that wouldn’t be flooded if UA blew the dam, and take Odessa. Obviously, they would need to encircle the UN protected area to ensure that no artifacts were smuggled out. I’m sure that they would provide rowboats to anybody who wasn’t a criminal who wanted to leave after they were searched. Russia, of course, after the Oblast held a referendum declaring Odessa’s independence from Ukraine, would need to provide police forces to protect the UN identified areas.

Posted by: barstool | Apr 9 2023 20:59 utc | 315

@Chip Herman | Apr 9 2023 18:38 utc | 315
Uh, we can talk freely here. MSM isn’t censoring these posts. It’s easier to read “bomb” than “bmob.”

Posted by: barstool | Apr 9 2023 21:06 utc | 316

… their training programme is extremely limited and generic …
Posted by: Milites | Apr 9 2023 11:36 utc | 301
Ukraine army uses NATO gifts in desert camo!
Not even green painting cover…
So when you see some darker tone it means they are burnt.
Lol

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Apr 10 2023 10:54 utc | 317