Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 27, 2023
Ukraine Peace Talks – A Grown Up Is Taking Charge

The U.S. is unwilling to yet give up in its proxy war with Russia in Ukraine. Russia can not stop the war without securing its legitimate interest to keep NATO and/or the U.S. out of its neighbor state. A loss of the war would create an existential danger for Russia. 

With the two major powers engaged in a war a third party is needed to solve the conflict.

In the spring of last year Turkey and Israel successfully helped to find a peace agreement. A good solution was found and Russia as well as Ukraine agreed to it. But the U.S. needed the war to continue. It sent the British prime minister Boris Johnson to Kiev to sabotage the deal. The Ukrainian president was told that the country would lose all 'western' support should it sign an agreement with Russia.

As the somewhat neutral middle powers were unable to push any agreement through it became obvious that a third party with more heft was needed to seal a deal.

The time of moving towards a deal also needed to be right. On February 24, exactly a year after the war had started, China announced its Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis. This was not a peace plan but a lay out of things that will need to be understood and done to come to a sustainable solution of the crisis.

A months later China took the next step that will be needed in the process. It introduced a high ranking diplomat who will hold the preliminary talks in Ukraine and Russia to find the potential ways to proceed. The announcement was made after a phone call between the presidents Xi and Zelensky:

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said he held a “long and meaningful call” with Chinese President Xi Jinping on Wednesday, a long-anticipated first contact between the leaders since Russia’s invasion 14 months ago.

Xi appealed for negotiations between Moscow and Kyiv to begin, according to a Chinese government readout of the call, which Beijing said Zelenskyy requested.

Xi pledged to send a "special representative" to Ukraine for talks about a "political settlement" — warning that "there is no winner in a nuclear war."

China hopes to become a neutral peace broker in the conflict, although the U.S. and others have questioned its impartiality given a "no limits" partnership in which it has lent Moscow rhetorical and financial support.

I am not aware of any 'financial support' by China to Russia as NBC News is claiming here. Even U.S. intelligence says that Russia does not need more money to continue the war:

U.S. intelligence holds that Russia will be able to fund the war in Ukraine for at least another year, even under the heavy and increasing weight of unprecedented sanctions, according to leaked U.S. military documents.

China' readout on the call alludes to the previous proposal and offers to build on it:

With rational thinking and voices now on the rise, it is important to seize the opportunity and build up favorable conditions for the political settlement of the crisis. It is hoped that all parties would seriously reflect on the Ukraine crisis and jointly explore ways to bring lasting peace and security to Europe through dialogue. China will continue to facilitate talks for peace and make its efforts for early ceasefire and restoration of peace. China will send the Special Representative of the Chinese Government on Eurasian Affairs to Ukraine and other countries to have in-depth communication with all parties on the political settlement of the Ukraine crisis. China has sent multiple batches of humanitarian assistance to Ukraine and will keep providing help to the best of its ability.

The Chinese special representative for Eurasian affairs is Lu Hui, a very senior diplomat.

He has held several positions in China's embassies in Moscow and Astana as well as within China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

In 2008-2009 Mr. Liu Hui served as a deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of the PRC.

From August 2009 to August 2019 he served as an Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the People's Republic of China to the Russian Federation.

Ukraine's readout of the call does not mention the envoy. The U.S. response to the announcement of an envoy was designed to put China's efforts into doubt:

John Kirby, the National Security Council's coordinator for strategic communications, said the U.S. welcomed the call as a "good thing."

"We’ve been saying for quite some time that we believe it’s important for President Xi and PRC officials to avail themselves of the Ukrainian perspective on this illegal and unprovoked invasion by Russia," Kirby told reporters, referring to China by the initials for its formal name, the People's Republic of China.

Earlier, Kirby, told NBC News, "We will let these two leaders speak to the details of their conversation."

A senior administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said it was "way too soon after just getting word of this conversation to speculate about" whether the call should foster optimism about China's peace plan.

"Thus far, China has not shown itself to be unbiased when it comes to supporting Russia," the official said.

I have no doubt that Li Hui will do his best to achieve some progress in talks with Ukraine and Russia. His most difficult task is to bring the U.S. on board of any potential solution.

But with more doubts coming up over Kiev's ability to successfully launch the announced counteroffensive being voiced every day the mood in Washington may well be changing.

Comments

VietnamVet #169

Acknowledging reality, giving peace a chance, and cooperation to share resources along with universal education, healthcare, food, and shelter are the only way human beings will be able to continue to survive on planet earth. This is why the biggest Squid of all wants to go to Mars.

Thank you for that post. I like the thought of the vampire squid being home and hosed on the planet of war. There are insufficient resources there for the return journey afaik.
The rest of us can easily give it a pass on our way further out if we even desire to go past the moon. Best get the home planet in good order first as you say.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 28 2023 7:34 utc | 201

@Giyane | Apr 27 2023 22:54 utc | 117
Yes, Russia is a Eurasian country which encompasses a plurality of races and religious belief, but Europe is just a stupid region which worships Blacks, Jews and queers. And whereas Russia knows how far it can trust its Muslims, Europe doesn’t have the faintest clue.
The West’s “peace and democracy” just means “your money or your life”, while China’s “peace and harmony” just means “your money and your life”. So it was explained to me by a Chinese commentator many years ago. Now you can understand Ewe’s response at 142 to your comment. So you must conform, comply and die mutherfucker, its very harmonious.
Bwa! ha! ha! ha! ha!

Posted by: gT | Apr 28 2023 7:34 utc | 202

China is a tech stealer who grew its economy due to violating intellectual property, and exploiting the low wage of its citizens to transfer western industry there. the advantages it had were big population (now falling) the western market (about to fall). with huge debt, loads of malinvestment(especially buildings to artificially increase GDP). China grow is already coming to an end as the GDP growth numbers show, it will be unable to grow more than 4% starting in 2025, falling further in the 2030s, when itwill have to compete in a market(smaller than western) with players equal or superior to it. China depends on all kinds of imports, Russia on almost none. Chinese military altought better than the cheap crap they had in the 2000s is nothing impressive for the size of its population, not even having a blue navy. Btw Russian GDP Papp per capita is much higher than China’s, the difference will only increase in the future.

Posted by: Phariah | Apr 28 2023 7:43 utc | 203

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 27 2023 17:13 utc | 8

The best thing that could happen would be Zelensky flipping over to the pan-Eurasian side

If this happens, his flip would have to be total. Once he negotiates, the CIA goons will be coming after him. He will need Russia and China’s security services to protect him from both the CIA and the US leaning elements of his government.
I rather guess that Z wishes he could flip. There are many advantages to him personally if he flips. His flipping will be so advantageous to Russia and China that he could negotiate for far more than a few mansions in Miami in exchange.
But it would take a creative genius to come up with a story he can tell his population tho. Who knows? These are actors and movie makers. They may come up with something yet.

Posted by: littlereddot | Apr 28 2023 7:46 utc | 204

MFB #198
Certainly China going to NATO to talk peace will be very unsettling for the NATO ‘unity’. China is abundantly aware that NATO is coming to their part of the world anyway if one believes the idiot bluster from Stuntedberg so why not go direct into the festering wound of war and have a yarn about peace. The North Atlantic Nations (ex USA) have paid dearly for their vassal status and the leading political parties have likely fractured many informal economic coalitions in falling into this energy trap so its a good time to exploit their vulnerabilities.
NATO really does not have the ticker for this SMO to continue any longer as even at this pace it is running short of cordite and spare shells let alone make a convincing sally forth to the South China Sea.
I imagine the NATO secret chatter that China listens to has conveyed sufficient intel for China to make some loud calls and cutting asides to the Zelensky table of negotiators. I see this next stage as being one where the bluff is called and tightly focussed on the message of cut the BS and dont mess with the East. Better to convey that immediately IMO as the 2024 USA election lunacy will tend to drown out all common sense and optimism as it does these days.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 28 2023 7:51 utc | 205

uncle tungsten | Apr 28 2023 7:34 utc | 201
That was a good part of VV’s post to highlight.
To set up research stations, to gather moon dust aka a species of helium fair enough. But to colonize uninhabitable places like the moon and Mars, like the brits colonized their lebensraum… the living conditions are far harsher than the deepest depths of the ocean or the highest point in Antarctica.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 28 2023 7:53 utc | 206

”Kyiv was bombed…
The attack involved Tu-22 and Tu-95 long-range missile-carrying bombers using X-101 and X-555 missiles. Western sources confirm that the missiles reached their targets at:
Kherson,
mykolaiv,
Sumska Oblast,
Uman,
Donetsk Oblast,
Dnipro
(in Dnepropetrovsk, they hit, presumably, the base of the Dnepr-1 regiment and the Dnepropetrovsk airfield),
Zaporizka Oblast,
Kharkiv,
Poltavska Oblast”
http://t.me/vicktop55/149
Details to surely trickle over coming days.

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 28 2023 7:58 utc | 207

My typos are bad but misspelling ones own username… Phariah
A combination of Pharaoh and Pariah. Dumb as dogshit troll

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 28 2023 8:02 utc | 208

unimperator | Apr 28 2023 7:58 utc | 207
There was a post some time earlier on other media that TU’s were in the air. Sort of like hearing a pregnant woman has gone into hospital and then waiting for some time for news of the new arrival.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 28 2023 8:07 utc | 209

Interesting thoughts, B, on an issue that threatens world peace. At this stage of the conflict, with fatigue setting in with all parties concerned, the time may just be right. Surely, Lu Hui will communicate with a wide range of officials in Kiev, hard-liners and doves. Ukraine is essential in China’s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), so the Chinese will offer deals and finance that Ukrainian cool heads cannot refuse.
It is true that it will be difficult for Lu Hui to bring the US on board, but when the Ukrainians feel enough is enough and fxxck the US, the US will have to play along, although it may keep lots of tricks in its sleeve.
Personally, I feel the most difficult part of Lu Hui’s mission will be to persuade Moscow to end hostilities when key elements of its objectives have not been fulfilled. It apparently wants to control the entire area east of the Dnieper River, including Kiev. That provides sufficient strategic depth, see
https://geopolitiekincontext.wordpress.com/2022/03/30/waarom-de-oekraine-oorlog-over-veel-meer-gaat/
Understandably, the Russians fear that NATO will not give up, and will – after a lull – push the Ukrainians into a guerilla type of war once the circumstances allow it. Russia needs credible, conclusive security guarantees, and long term tools to enforce them.

Posted by: Paul-Robert | Apr 28 2023 8:14 utc | 210

@ 137. paul damascene
very good post paul.. i think you characterize the present situation very well, and this is probably in line with how the leadership in russia sees this too.. it is true, there are always unforeseen possibilities that can come out of a protracted war, but the pragmatic approach is much like you outline it here..
@ richard steven hack..
be assured.. putin is no fool.. talk is talk.. all the chinese peace settlement ideas only go so far..i think paul damascene has described the trajactory here very satisfactorily.. i can’t see russia or its leadership being thrown off by peace settlement proposals..

Posted by: james | Apr 28 2023 8:19 utc | 211

First Erdogan and now Vučic. Is Vicky Nuland going full Michele Corleone on Russia’s southwestern flank?

Posted by: Arminius | Apr 28 2023 8:28 utc | 212

With Biden running in 2024, this Ukrainian sh’tshow proxy war must end, the sooner the better. No way can the Dems run an electoral program on overseas multibillion dollar warmongering.

Posted by: Adam Troy | Apr 28 2023 8:30 utc | 213

Make no mistake about it, China is delivering the terms of settlement to Ukraine. Russia will not go back on her stated intentions at the beginning of 2022. De-nazification, free ethnic Russians and de-militarisation of Ukraine. Accept or be destroyed.

Posted by: Bluedog57 | Apr 28 2023 9:07 utc | 214

Bluedog57 | Apr 28 2023 9:07 utc | 215 “De-nazification, free ethnic Russians and de-militarisation of Ukraine. Accept or be destroyed.
That’s the nuts and bolts of the birds and the bees.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 28 2023 9:12 utc | 215

Latest Biden dementia US ( a country is what its leadership is) military recruitment ad to aid in the destruction of the the US. Hold down the vomit and watch it through.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIYGFSONKbk
Compare that to Russia and China recruitment ads. Russia and China recruitment ads are a little along the line of the solo man ads here in oz prior to american fagotry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T3RS78Tp58
The final stages of collapse of empire. Print money. Fertilize a turd. Same sex family. Bugger pedophilia.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 28 2023 9:33 utc | 216

Posted by: velizhan | Apr 27 2023 21:24 utc | 101

I do not doubt the level of expertise of this envoy of course, but his name is very unfortunate for two Russian-speaking countries. “Hui” in Russian is a very strong curse word which means “dick”, but may be he will be referred to as “Mr. Lu” at all the formal gatherings.

He would correctly be called Mr Li as “Li” is the family name.
In East Asian culture, the family name is traditionally placed first, before the generational or personal names. But sometimes Japanese, or E Asian people who live in the West, may reverse the order when speaking to a non E Asian ….. to reduce confusion (as paradoxical as it now appears).
It appears that there has been a spelling error in the report. His correct name is Li Hui 李辉

Posted by: littlereddot | Apr 28 2023 9:42 utc | 217

Bluedog57 #215

Make no mistake about it, China is delivering the terms of settlement to Ukraine. Russia will not go back on her stated intentions at the beginning of 2022. De-nazification, free ethnic Russians and de-militarisation of Ukraine. Accept or be destroyed.

I have a suspicion that China is delivering the terms of settlement AND the terms of engagement to NATO. China waited calmly and listened politely and then Stuntedberg could no longer contain himself and blurted out that NATO is to go to the South China Sea to assist in stealing Taiwan from China and insulting China as they did a century ago. And the century before that…
Then China made the call to Zelensky. Then China announced a very experienced, unassigned, ex Ambassador to Russia to head the mission.
NATO has sh!t in its shoe and China has asked them to wear it. Cute play.
But we must go back before the SMO was announced in early 2022 and consider Putin’s proposal to NATO and the USA on December 12th 2021 (as I recall). NATO is to guarantee mutual assured security and return to its 1991 boundaries. IE the boundaries existing just as the USSR morphed into the Russian Federation. Yes this is about demilitarisation and denazification but more than that it is about the retreat of NATO from its belligerent broken promise and its aggressive advance on Russia.
Now we have NATO making muscle headed statements about advancing aggressively on China in defiance of the treaty signed by the USA and allies at the defeat of Japan in mid 1900’s. This is not a good look for sane observers of the rise and rise of so many Asian nations into prosperity and prolonged peace. We are on the brink of seeing the boneheaded western European nations trying out their colonial testosterone fuelled gunships in Asian waters.
China is leading the advocacy of all of Asia’s desire to negotiate peace, maintain and enlarge open trade and transport, mutually assured security, increasing prosperity and the growing achievement of modern infrastructure such as education, health and high technology. Asia watches as these western ignoramuses thirst for war in the Asian waters and lands knowing full well what happens when a bull is loosed in a china shop.
The world is dividing.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 28 2023 9:43 utc | 218

Peter AU1 #206

To set up research stations, to gather moon dust aka a species of helium fair enough. But to colonize uninhabitable places like the moon and Mars, like the brits colonized their lebensraum… the living conditions are far harsher than the deepest depths of the ocean or the highest point in Antarctica.

Thanks for the reply. As I understand the next step toward China’s moonbase installation is planned for early 2024 (I forget where I read that report) The stages include some expansion of the utility of its existing near orbit station, then the placement of a near moon orbit station, augmenting that over a short time to complete its desired functional capacity, landing an initial exploratory laboratory and then progressively augmenting, extracting and shipping back to the blue pearl we know as Earth.
Stay well and be prepared to see this marvel implemented soon.
I’ll stop as this is off topic. Maybe we discuss later on open thread.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 28 2023 10:02 utc | 219

https://t.me/CyberspecNews/29171

❗️A French Ministry of Interior helicopter was hovering over the Russian embassy in Paris and filming….the embassy has lodged a protest and asked for an explanation.

We are witnessing the brain death of NATO governments, of which Macron‘s is one.

Posted by: anon2020 | Apr 28 2023 10:08 utc | 220

Peter AU1 @217
So they want lots of pro-LGBTQ girls like “Emma” who were raised by lesbians to join the US army. I think that is an excellent plan and I think if the Ukrainians had a batallion of “Emmas” at Bakhmut, they would have held the city against the Wagner mercs.

Posted by: aquileia | Apr 28 2023 10:11 utc | 221

Interesting two-parter:
https://t.me/CyberspecNews/29139

➡️ Part-1: Russian Aerospace Forces (RuAF) fighters have recently switched tactics and adopted a more offensive operational posture than in the past. …

https://t.me/CyberspecNews/29140

➡️Part-2: — The Deadly Kh-31P ARM … The Russian Kh-31P ARM’s ability to destroy any Ukrainian AD radar that switches on to guide Ukrainian AD missiles is a critical component of RuAF air dominance tactics. …

Posted by: anon2020 | Apr 28 2023 10:12 utc | 222

I think it important to highlight that Liu Hui is a “plenipotentiary” which means he can commit China to actions all on his own. That is indeed a very senior level of committment.

Posted by: bakerpete | Apr 28 2023 10:12 utc | 223

bakerpete #224

I think it important to highlight that Liu Hui is a “plenipotentiary” which means he can commit China to actions all on his own. That is indeed a very senior level of committment.

Indeed he is. And what is fascinating is who among the Ukrainian nazi leadership and administration has the intellectual capacity and endurance to engage with Comrade Liu Hui. I am looking forward to seeing who is who on that Ukrainian team.
Blinken must be fuming at this perverse turn of events:))

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 28 2023 10:24 utc | 224

“We are Envoys and we take what is offered.”
— Altered Carbon

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 28 2023 10:33 utc | 225

Re: US Army recruitment ad ‚Emma‘
The gayest military EVER !

Posted by: Exile | Apr 28 2023 10:38 utc | 226

Posted by: Phariah | Apr 28 2023 7:43 utc | 203

China is a tech stealer who grew its economy due to violating intellectual property,

This is the most impressive aspect of their meteoric rise:
They were able to steal the ideas right out of your heads.
They turned you inside out, reached in and scooped it all.
Plucked whole areas of science out in the blink of an eye.
Mastered entire areas of your technology without your let.
Launched more rockets in 20 years than the US has in 50.
Mastered hypersonic glide while the US fumbled at Mach1.
Tech Stealer? Who wasn’t? After all, ‘Western’ science would be nothing without it’s stolen foundations in Iranian technology from the Islamic Golden Age.

and exploiting the low wage of its citizens to transfer western industry there.

Unlike you, they didn’t have the luxury of colonial slavery or the stolen wealth of India at their disposal.
Tech stealer, you say?
Tech Dealer, actually.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Apr 28 2023 10:48 utc | 227

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 28 2023 6:47 utc | 192
“You have not served any military time”
Moron. Three years US Army, 1967-1970, 1 year in Vietnam (9 months Cam Ranh Bay, 3 months Vung Ro Bay.) Fucking dumb Aussies need to roast their dicks on the barbie before commenting.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 28 2023 10:49 utc | 228

I’m sorry Richard, but if you didn’t serve in an LGBTQIA+ company, it doesn’t count.

Posted by: Emma | Apr 28 2023 10:57 utc | 229

Wouldn’t they have to flip Zelensky for this to work?

Posted by: Speccy | Apr 28 2023 11:33 utc | 230

There have been periodic rumours in the Turkish media (usually opposition) about Erdogan’s health, for years. The first I remember was about a decade ago. Sometimes he has disappeared from the public eye for a few days and looks a little drawn in the face when he emerges, like he lost some weight. It does look like he has had a heart attack recently. Earlier claims may only have been wishful thinking.

Posted by: Waldorf | Apr 28 2023 11:39 utc | 231

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Apr 28 2023 10:24 utc | 225
It’s genius diplomacy. China’s just dropped a huge Litmus paper into Ukrainian politics, the readout will be there for everyone to see.

Posted by: anon2020 | Apr 28 2023 11:41 utc | 232

Waldorf | Apr 28 2023 11:39 utc | 232
They opposition said the same thing about Vucic yesterday. Hard to believe these MSM messages are coincidences. Vucic denied, said he’s going on a tour of Serbia

Posted by: rk | Apr 28 2023 11:49 utc | 233

For Ukraine, it would just be better to join the SCO and let EU and US purchase goods from Ukraine through the SCO system, which runs through gold backed currencies.
Posted by: unimperator | Apr 27 2023 22:20 utc | 106
Certainly. Just like for Finland it would have been better to do trade and to peacefully coexist with Russia instead of slitting its own throat. The people realise that too for the most part. But what’s good for Ukraine or Finland is not the same as what’s good for the jews (zelensky, nuland, blinken, blackrock, whatever the name of that richest man in Finland who’s not a finn, but a jew, and doesn’t live there).
What’s the weight of the wellbeing of 40 million or 5 million goys on the scale, with the option of pillage, riches and rape for a select few in the other cup? The answer is, negative! Rape and pillage pulls the scale cup down while the wellbeing of goys pulls it up. And there’s always a backstabber goy (trump, biden, RFK, merkel, leyen, marin, niinistö, macron, stoltenberg, etc.) to do the throat-slitting for a little (real or promised) reward.
A lot of people get confused wondering how come “Ukraine” or any other country makes such unfortunate decisions. But it’s not Ukraine or its population doing the deciding. A lot of countries tried to decide for themselves, of course. The bombs then discouraged them from trying again.

Posted by: Mike | Apr 28 2023 11:49 utc | 234

Unfortunately i believe its too late,this is a fight Russia has to win, and seen to have won, far too many people have died and damage done to sign some half baked deal,a deal that would leave criminals in power in Kiev and the threat of Nato still in Ukraine.

Posted by: Englishman | Apr 28 2023 11:52 utc | 235

China is a tech stealer…
The USSR did the same thing post World War II. It was a matter of rapid economic growth by a more primitive economy using the method of copying the industrial West. When that is over, if China follows the previous Russian path, growth will slow and central planning will stifle further innovation.

Posted by: Jmaas | Apr 28 2023 11:55 utc | 236

” please stop using the term “echo chamber”. It’s an insult to all rationable beings here. Focus on this site is on critical thinking whatever trolls claim.
Posted by: Anthony | Apr 27 2023 19:44 utc | 63 ”
Fair enough. I will cease calling the majority mono-opinion expressed here as an ” echo chamber “. Hence forth, I will only refer to it as cult like circle jerk. Hope this works for you.
Russia is innocent, China is innocent, the Soviets were innocent, and the Khazars never did any wrong.

Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | Apr 28 2023 11:59 utc | 237

Another S-300 launcher down.
[ Album ]
S-300 of the Armed Forces of Ukraine destroyed in the Mykolaiv region as part of the local genocide of Ukrainian air defense in the Kherson direction.
https://t.me/NovichokRossiya/29221

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 28 2023 12:03 utc | 238

@191-Quo Vadis
Hi!
1-Taiwan is not a country, it’s a chinese island ruled by us/nato backed separatists, not an opinion here, just historical fact
2-on Crimea (as for the rest of ex-Ukraine), China advocates a political, diplomatic settlement that takes “the legitimate security interests of all parties into account”, how could we not agree? (for the sake of slaughtering more young men and civilians aka CHILDRENS and MOTHERS from both sides of the frontline?!)
3-China’s position on Yugoslavia was clear enough for the US to throw (May 1999) 5 “guided bombs” (missiles in fact) to destroy their embassy which was transmitting satellite information to the Serbs (this was prolly the first openly shot and hit of the coming war on China)
BR
ps: Celts Rulez !

Posted by: Tak-Tik | Apr 28 2023 12:17 utc | 239

Zelensky cannot into signing
@bakerpete | Apr 28 2023 10:12 utc | 224

I think it important to highlight that Liu Hui is a “plenipotentiary” which means he can commit China to actions all on his own. That is indeed a very senior level of commitment.

@uncle tungsten | Apr 28 2023 10:24 utc | 225

[W]ho among the Ukrainian [] administration has the intellectual capacity and endurance to engage with Comrade Liu Hui. I am looking forward to seeing who is who on that Ukrainian team.

Does Zelensky have plenipotentiary powers? Can he commit Ukraine to actions all on his own? Or is he just an American puppet and stooge, with no powers to negotiate?

A plenipotentiary (from the Latin plenus “full” and potens “powerful”) is a diplomat who has full powers—authorization to sign a treaty or convention on behalf of his or her sovereign.[1] When used as a noun more generally, the word plenipotentiary can also refer to any person who has full powers. When used an adjective, plenipotentiary describes something which confers full powers, such as an edict or an assignment.[2]
Source: Wikipedia

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Apr 28 2023 12:20 utc | 240

Posted by: Phariah | Apr 28 2023 7:43 utc | 203
Russia is not as self-sufficient as you think it is, so “self-sufficiency” quest was two-pronged: first, modicum of self-sufficiency so a “siege” would not affect it quickly, second, good alliances, even at a cost. Helpfully, USA as a leader of collective West compiled a list of designated enemies that is just wee bit too long.
In critical technologies, it is impossible to be best in everything. Russia has no high end chips (unnecessary for weapons and machinery), is weak in high end machine tools, and militarily, it was mediocre with drones, for a decade there were announcements that they will have spiffy drones next year. On the other hand, there are technologies in which they are on top, e.g. they became the best exporter of nuclear power plants, and this export is sanction-resistant, not a small thing for installations of that complexity.
The war brought some giant surprises. First, India, while not directly threatened by sanctions, decided to be genuinely independent from the West, and its media became almost shockingly pro-Russian (well, I know this only from Hidustani Times on You Tube, the best source of visual materials from Russian Ministry of Defense. India became the principle customer for Russian oil products, good customer for nuclear power projects and fertilizers, and I suspect, good if not necessarily direct location for “storing trade surpluses”, China being defective in that respect as a trade surplus nation. Because of sanctions, location of trade surpluses of Russia is unclear, but debt of Indian government and corporation exists, even if bond market not as deep as in USA/EU. Russia is also a supplier of military technology, even if currently it cannot export too many weapons: India needs technology a bit more than weapons themselves. Given the size of India, it was a tectonic change in geo-politics.
What surprised me even more was how helpful cooperation with Iran was. With good universities and severe sanctions for decades, Iran got good engineering, but did we really expect that it would have such a good grasp on drone technology? Perhaps below specs of American drones, but at low cost, which is decisive in a large scale war. Moreover, Russia and Iran had a rather testy relationship, but now they are much more open to exchange the best goods they have.
Politically, openly being a key weapon supplier for Russia was something that China avoids, but Iran, sanctioned to gills, can only gain, and gain it did.
A bundle of sticks is stronger than one.
When you focus on import dependency of China, they are critical importer and exporter for a huge number of raw material and products. Knocking China out from foreign trade, say, by a maritime blockade, would instantly create a word wide depression. And it is not like China would starve in the time of siege. They would need to cut the meat consumption and eat more traditionally.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Apr 28 2023 12:30 utc | 241

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Apr 28 2023 12:20 utc | 241
We know that he doesn’t have the power to sign a peace deal and enforce his side of it. US special forces are in their Kiev embassy to protect US politicos from Ukrainians, with good reason. Kiev streets are cleared of pedestrians and traffic when high rollers visit, same deal.

Posted by: anon2020 | Apr 28 2023 12:30 utc | 242

Rybar reporting that in addition to the four S-300s and a Gepard hit by lancets, there were additionally a Tor, an S-300 radar, and 2 additional S-300s destroyed.
One of the S-300s was hit by a Kh-31P, an anti-radiation missile known to be carried by the Su-57.
https://twitter.com/snekotron/status/1651928399844106240

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 28 2023 12:41 utc | 243

The news trickling out from yesterdays missile strikes – there were at least various types of warehouses and oil depots hit in Dnepro. While Ukraine may launch an Offensive™, they may not be able to sustain it for very long without fuel and ammo.

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 28 2023 12:43 utc | 244

Moron. Three years US Army, 1967-1970, 1 year in Vietnam (9 months Cam Ranh Bay, 3 months Vung Ro Bay.) Fucking dumb Aussies need to roast their dicks on the barbie before commenting.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 28 2023 10:49 utc | 229
Off topic- Do you recall the name of the Base Commander at Cam Ranh when you were there?

Posted by: [citation needed] | Apr 28 2023 12:50 utc | 245

Geez there are a few tossers spaffing on this thread! The Eton school boy worshippers.
Best to Not Acknowledge or Engage with their attempts to derail the developing topics.
Anyway – it is s good to see that many of the points I made previously
thread“>https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/04/ukraine-open-thread-2023-100.html?cid=6a00d8341c640e53ef02b751a323cd200c”>thread are also being written about. I’m not claiming any credit , it’s just the truth spreading through the open forums by people doing their own research 🧐, as they should. With such guiding lights as b.
A couple of points being misunderstood here:-
SMO or War ? What difference does it make to China?
And Who actually WANTS a War?
Traditionally wars are ‘declared’ because Treaties exist, consequences of which lead countries to become belligerents on behalf of their Treaty ‘partners’.
So went the First and Second European ‘world’ Wars of the C20th. As Article 5 of the Natzo Treaty is set as a trigger for all its members to pile in if they are deluded enough to do so.
Well, as I pointed out prior to the beginning of the ‘SMO’ whilst the West callously ignored Russias offer of the two security treaties at the end of 2021, the Chinese and Russians (and other full members of the SCO) reaffirmed at the beginning of 2022 , the Treaty of friendship and good neighbourliness. Which as friendly and peaceful as it sounds – enshrines collective Security. A War against One is a War against All!
See! these dastardly jungle dwellers have stolen the Anglo European trick!! The devils!!!
That is why the Collective Waste’s attempt to turn it into a War against Russia will result in an Actual American-European-5+1 Eyed, conflagration EVERYWHERE their Military /Naval /Air bases and Commercial National Interests exist! And boy there are Thousands of these – all sitting targets for the various local ‘Resistance’ rebels.
Aiming drones at Putin in his dachas is just about as dumb as it gets – the Finks must be running a cold sweat knowing that the they won’t be able to stop the returning fu-Kinzhell fire in all these far off places and estates. Because for sure they will be the primary targets not the cities full of innocent, if dumb propagandised morons in this here Collective Waste.
It will force China and the other Full Members of the SCO treaties to join that War. And that will pit 50% of that humanity against the 15% of us. The remainder will have to remain neutral or choose sides. It would certainly stop the honest brokering of a Peace not just for the now rump Ukraine as seems to be desired by the craziest of natzions.
Now THAT is what I would call a REAL World War – to please all the deluded Survivalists and their dodgy bunkers and dried old foods in rotted cans , ready to re-emerge in centuries having morphed into some strange amalgamated clone cyborg cockroache species with their guns, that mate with themselves and eat their own shit and babies to survive! To renew Life on an irradiated Earth for a slow progress of thousand centuries towards some form of civilisation which they alone will own.
I expect the Africans, Chinese Asians will have got there first again 😂

Posted by: DunGroanin | Apr 28 2023 13:19 utc | 246

@ Jmaas | 237

China is a tech stealer…
The US did the same thing post World War II. It was a matter of rapid economic growth by a more primitive economy using the method of copying the industrial Nazis. When that is over, if the US follows the previous Nazi path, growth will slow and belligerent losses will stifle further innovation.

Fixed that for ya.
Seriously: China currently leads the world in patents. It made all businesses doing business, manufacturing, and design in China commit to knowledge and skills sharing as part of the price of doing business in China.
China hasn’t “stolen” even a tenth as much as the capitalist corporations have given away.
Flip that around and the US most certainly stole, rapaciously, from other countries back in the early 20th century. Up until 1930 or so, the US was the world’s worst violator of copyright and patent law. That changed around the middle of the century, but does anyone here believe that the US has stopped stealing tech and innovations from other countries? Doesn’t anyone remember the revelations back in the mid-00s that the CIA was doing corporate espionage against foreign corporations to help US corporations profit and innovate?
Please. Any halfwit who claims that the Chinese have only gotten ahead because they “steal technology” is an idiot. The Chinese literally had wheelbarrows 700 years before western Europe finally hit on the idea. The Chinese invented paper, and gunpowder.

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Apr 28 2023 13:24 utc | 247

” The founder of Wagner PMC Yevgeny Prigozhin said that he was not allowed to build defenses before the Ukrainian counteroffensive, which will begin in May.
Prigozhin’s statement was published by his press service. “The offensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine is inevitable. There is a betrayal inside Russia – we are not allowed to build a defense and advance further. But we will attack at any cost in order to grind the army of Ukraine and thwart the offensive,” Prigozhin said.
The head of the PMC “Wagner” accused the command, without naming names, of treason and crimes against Russia, due to the creation of a shell shortage – according to Prigozhin, artificial.
“No one gives ammunition. The criminal team does not give ammunition – they accumulate in warehouses in batches. The number of people in PMC “Wagner” is drying up. We are preparing new reserves, but we will not throw in new people until we have fully prepared them. Those bastards who decide not to give ammunition must answer to the mothers of the dead. Due to the fact that there are no shells during the assault on buildings, fighters die instead of one. There are no shells to destroy their artillery,” Prigogine said.
“On May 2, the last rain should pass. We have another week for the wind to dry up the soil – after that the APU will be ready to move. They are ready to go and cut our flanks, which no one covered. All the stories about how they prevented an attempt to enter the reserves into Bakhmut are complete nonsense, ”said the founder of the PMC. ”
https://kapital-rus.ru/news/395578-idet_predatelstvo_vnutri_rossii_prigojin_zayavil_ob_otsutstvii_oboro/

Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | Apr 28 2023 13:27 utc | 248

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Apr 28 2023 12:20 utc | 241
That’s a brilliant point. Zelensky has very limited agency to do anything besides whine and prance about. I suppose there is always the possibility of him having an epiphany, but those are rare.
@243 anon2020
I wonder if the real purpose of those special forces is to make sure that Zelensky doesn’t get any ideas about freewill. Should he try, a bullet in the brain from the marines followed by “blame it on Putin” would be the likely outcome.

Posted by: Chris | Apr 28 2023 13:38 utc | 249

@ unimperator | Apr 28 2023 12:41 utc | 244
Something funny about the vid’s I seen of the S-300 tel’s being hit. There’s no secondary explosions.
Looks like the launch tubes were empty.

Posted by: S.O. | Apr 28 2023 13:47 utc | 250

@Pacifica Advocate #248
Not to mention that the “central planning” mantra is a stereotype from the 1970s. The Chinese economy is no more centrally planned than that of any developed country, and less so in some sectors. It’s incredibly dynamic and chaotic with sprouts of new industry visible everywhere. That’s why they’re ahead in a lot of fintech areas, and at least world-class in many others (commercial space, autonomous human carrying aircraft, AI), despite increasingly obvious attempts by the US to handicap their development since at least the early 2000s.

Posted by: BillB | Apr 28 2023 13:49 utc | 251

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Apr 28 2023 13:24 utc | 248
Please. Any halfwit who claims that the Chinese have only gotten ahead because they “steal technology” is an idiot. The Chinese literally had wheelbarrows 700 years before western Europe finally hit on the idea. The Chinese invented paper, and gunpowder.
China was ahead of everybody a few hundred years prior to the birth of Christ. For some reason from there going forward they stagnated. Europe kicked it in gear big time starting in the middle ages and the scientific revolution. Almost all human progress from then to the nineteenth century was produced in Europe and its Western Civilization offspring.
China’s progress problem, if it has one, will be because it is a top down social control society. Their innovation progress going forward will depend on to what extent they let the private sector function.

Posted by: Jmaas | Apr 28 2023 13:58 utc | 252

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 28 2023 0:29 utc | 127
The Works Progress Administration (WPA) was an ambitious employment and infrastructure program created by President Franklin Roosevelt in 1935, during the bleakest days of the Great Depression. Over its eight years of existence, the WPA put roughly 8.5 million Americans to work building schools, hospitals, roads and other public works. Perhaps best known for its public works projects, the WPA also sponsored projects in the arts—the agency employed tens of thousands of actors, musicians, writers and other artists.”
The problem with the WPA was that it didn’t so much as solve unemployment as hide it. If the program had people doing genuinely useful things, they would be displacing the private labor force. Thus to the extent they built “schools, hospitals, roads,” the program simply displaced the private workers who would be building the same things. Or they employed “actors, musicians, writers” who would be otherwise unemployed because of a lack of interest in their output.
I forget which one, but one of the European countries got into buying paintings, and ended up with a whole warehouse full of paintings that nobody looked at. China is fond of building things and built an entire city that is surplus, nobody lives there. If I remember correctly, the WPA set up some rural work camps. One activity was to get rid of some types of weeds by scouring the countryside in search of weeds to pull up. That is, make work stuff.
Unemployment payments, or ‘insurance’ as it is sometimes called, doesn’t achieve anything but doesn’t hide the unemployment problem either.

Posted by: Jmaas | Apr 28 2023 14:04 utc | 253

“…Unemployment payments, or ‘insurance’ as it is sometimes called, doesn’t achieve anything but doesn’t hide the unemployment problem either.” Jmaas@253
Most people would see some benefit in the role of Unemployment payments in saving families from starvation.
You, presumably a devotee of the capitalist cult, would not.
Have you ever been unemployed or employed in your life?

Posted by: bevin | Apr 28 2023 14:14 utc | 254

Jmaas | Apr 28 2023 13:58 utc | 252, who wrote,
“China was ahead of everybody a few hundred years prior to the birth of Christ. For some reason from there going forward they stagnated. Europe kicked it in gear big time starting in the middle ages and the scientific revolution. Almost all human progress from then to the nineteenth century was produced in Europe and its Western Civilization offspring.”
Your comment is a trope, or cliche, but not an ‘interpolation to the sung parts of the Mass in the Middle Ages’, which sums up the real intellectual advances of the so-called Middle Ages. Until of course we [Olde world ‘West’] began to steal Islamic intellectual property that had been preserved from the so-called Ancient/Classical world during the 12th and 13th centurys.

Posted by: Lantern Dude | Apr 28 2023 14:22 utc | 255

“…China was ahead of everybody a few hundred years prior to the birth of Christ. For some reason from there going forward they stagnated…” Jmaas@252
Clearly you know nothing about history. China was the world’s leading economy at least until the beginning of the C19th and probably up to 1850. It was far in advance of Europe in the Middle Ages and into early modern times
“…Europe kicked it in gear big time starting in the middle ages and the scientific revolution. Almost all human progress from then to the nineteenth century was produced in Europe and its Western Civilization offspring…”
This is rubbish.
“…China’s progress problem, if it has one, will be because it is a top down social control society. Their innovation progress going forward will depend on to what extent they let the private sector function.”
So is this.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 28 2023 14:22 utc | 256

” 4) What was the role of a number of high-ranking Russian officials (former deputy prime minister and assistant to the president, Vladislav Surkov, for example) when DPR and LPR militias were unable to reach the borders of the Donbass republics in 2014, even as they were pursuing the already disorderly retreating Armed Forces of Ukraine? Why was the front “fixed” on the outskirts of Donetsk? Why was Mariupol, abandoned by the Ukrainian Armed Forces, not liberated? What role did the behind-the-scenes negotiations between Surkov (and other representatives of the Kremlin’s VIP officials) play in this with the Ukrainian oligarchs—in particular, with Rinat Akhmetov? Why, after the liberation of Debaltsevo in the spring of 2015, the hostilities were again “frozen” and the Armed Forces of Ukraine were given the chance to restore their newly lost combat capability? ”

Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | Apr 28 2023 14:36 utc | 257

@Pacifica Advocate | 248
The idea that European wheelbarrows derive from Chinese wheelbarrows is simpy ludicrous. They are technologically different (European wheelbarrows are smaller and have their wheel at the end, while Chinese wheelbarrows are almost as big as a cart and have their wheel in the middle) and there is a distinct lack of evidence of the use of wheelbarrows between Europe and China in ancient and medieval times (i.e. there is no link). Not to mention that there is evidence that both the Greeks (monokyklos) and the Romans (pabo, pabillus) had one-wheeled vehicles, that is wheelbarrows.
The most obvious explanation for the apparent scarcity of use of wheelbarrows in ancient Europe compared to China is that Europeans had a lot of working animals, while the Chinese had a lot of working men.
That said there is nothing wrong with “stealing” technology, that is actually how progress works.

Posted by: SG | Apr 28 2023 14:49 utc | 258

I knew years ago. We all did that China had legions of hackers. Back in 2015 I remember telling people China government has 100k hackers. Where US might have a couple thousand on a good day.
Now the difference is most likely bigger. If a hot war breaks out you can bet an average american will feel the pain when the Chinese hacker armies are activated.
And now somehow US media is writing about this like its breaking news.
Smh

Posted by: Comandante | Apr 28 2023 14:49 utc | 259

Warum werden zur Zeit 8.000 Ukrainer-Soldaten in USA, GB und Germany ausgebildet???
Posted by: Charly1 | Apr 27 2023 19:18 utc | 52
Good question Charly1. Here’s ‘Adolf’ in training with his ‘SS’ brigade. From Reuters. You couldn’t make this up. Except they have.
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1649310750127554561

Posted by: Lev Davidovich | Apr 28 2023 14:57 utc | 260

“…it’s important for President Xi and PRC officials to avail themselves of the Ukrainian perspective on this illegal and unprovoked invasion by Russia.”
Every time I hear ‘this illegal and unprovoked invasion’ bs I want to vomit. NATO – read the US – is entirely responsible for the carnage taking place in the Ukraine. The US instigated the Maidan ‘uprising’. The US’ was able to subvert Ukrainian democracy when it orchestrated the ouster of the elected government and installed a NAZI-loving regime. The US openly admits that the entire affair was started to reduce Russia’s economy, diminish the Russian Armed Forces and to place offensive weapons in a NATOized Ukraine.
Where was the outcry when the US illegally invaded Iraq – premised on a pack of lies promulgated by Colin Powell and George ‘dubya’ Bushit & Co. Where is the outcry at the US’ illegal occupation of Syria and it’s theft of Syrian oil?
The american empire is built on a pile of horseshit. It is maintained by strict control of it’s population, using subverted media to shape the narrative – a narrative so far divorced from reality that it is laughable. Tragically so.

Posted by: rgl | Apr 28 2023 15:03 utc | 261

@ BillB | 251
Indeed.

Not to mention that the “central planning” mantra is a stereotype from the 1970s. The Chinese economy is no more centrally planned than that of any developed country, and less so in some sectors.

As Chomsky has pointed out on a number of occasions: the US is a conspicuously centrally controlled economy, with the “control” portion being the dictates of the Pentagon.

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Apr 28 2023 15:09 utc | 262

Comandante: Speaking of hackerd, and not just Chinese ones: How long do you think a CBDC, especially a US one, would last before it was hacked to smithereens?
(Somehow I’m reminded of The Handmaid’s Tale…)

Posted by: malenkov | Apr 28 2023 15:19 utc | 263

@ bevin | 254

Have you ever been unemployed or employed in your life?

LOL!

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Apr 28 2023 15:26 utc | 264

> China is fond of building things and built an entire city that is surplus, nobody lives there
I’ve watched a few videos of that. It’s the exception, not a rule and not something they’re “fond of”.
For a population exceeding Natzostan, expect some suboptimal decisions. Still 50x better than Natzostan, where literally everything is decaying.

Posted by: natokraine | Apr 28 2023 15:32 utc | 265

Moldova
NATO anger grips Ukraine’s neighbour; Moldovan MP throws ‘blood’ on U.S.-led NATO bloc’s flag | Watch [2.5 mins]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIAgWXvGt1M
Thankfully – that Ukrainian invasion into Moldova/Transdinestra did not occur

Posted by: Don Firineach | Apr 28 2023 15:47 utc | 266

Is’nt it time to think about how we could get rid of the american oligarchy?
They might not be eternal.
There might be a big secret services fight there in work.
The power of the dollar, the power of the us financial system, if tje structure changes the parasites will change also.
We.need a world culture with safe way of exchanging.
A new “resistance” even if it will take 20 years. We need also globally to have an effect on the structure that will use the new masters. (China and India mainly).
What about some long term thinking?

Posted by: Baile | Apr 28 2023 15:57 utc | 267

Doctorow makes some important points today in his report of the SCO meeting in New Delhi
“…There were a couple of outstanding and newsworthy developments at the SCO gathering in India today. One was the speech delivered by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu. Several minutes from this speech were carried on Russian news channels and what we heard was Shoigu declaring that from the start of the Special Military Operation in Ukraine the Collective West was throwing all of its military assets against Russia.
“The other noteworthy development was the side meeting of Shoigu and his Chinese counterpart Li Shangfu. They were shown on television walking side by side to that meeting. Russian news tells us that Li used their meeting to extend an invitation to Shoigu to visit him in Beijing, and that Shoigu accepted.
“The impact on the other SCO member states, observers and dialogue partners of these close and fast developing relations between the Russian and Chinese defense ministries cannot be overstated. Today they were all direct witnesses of this fact. Among other things, this spells the end of opportunities for Central Asian states to play Russia off against China in obtaining favors, as Western media believed they were doing. It completely vitiates all efforts by U.S. Secretary of State Blinken over the past several months to pressure these same Central Asian countries into loosening or breaking ties with Moscow. These states are now all caught between a rock and a hard place….”
https://gilbertdoctorow.com/

Posted by: bevin | Apr 28 2023 16:08 utc | 268

There is a danger that Russia could win the war but lose the peace by compromising and allowing this Zelenksy regime and its NATO backers to have any territory at all in western Ukraine, other than letting Poland and perhaps Hungary and Romania taking a few border districts. They need to annex the east and turn the west into a Belarus type union regime.
That said, I don’t think Xi Jinping and the CPC are naive altruists in their conversations with Zelensky. They know who and what he is, but it’s possible to “turn” elements of criminal gangs against each other.
CPC intel to Zelensky: “Do you want to live the rest of your life in Macao with millions of dollars, free from Western threats? Give us all your correspondence with everyone in the West. We already know they plan to kill you. Here’s proof…” Unlikely, not impossible.
Like the CPC apparently did with Macron, they are sewing dissension in the Western ranks. Not that Macron’s word means anything other than empty posturing, but you break a dam one brick at a time.

Posted by: kassandra | Apr 28 2023 16:15 utc | 269

Jmaas | Apr 28 2023 14:04 utc | 254
That work program built the infrastructure to turn the US into the manufacturing powerhouse it became during and after WWII.
China has done the same. It builds infrastructure and the economy follows. Only China has done it in a much bigger way for for a longer period and will continue to do so.
The sort of infrastructure that enables a countries economic future can only be accomplished by stable governments with long term vision and not by ‘private enterprise’ requiring quarterly returns.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 28 2023 17:30 utc | 270

Three simple questions:
1) Does China recognize the DPR and LPR as being part of Russia ?
2) Does Russia recognize Taiwan as being part of China ?
3) Supposedly, Russia didnt want to use its conscript soldiers in Ukraine because it wasnt Russian territory. Since the two republics are part of Russia now, whats the excuse for not using conscripts to defend them ?

Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | Apr 28 2023 17:54 utc | 271

Posted by: anon2020 | Apr 28 2023 11:41 utc | 233:

It’s genius diplomacy. China’s just dropped a huge Litmus paper into Ukrainian politics, the readout will be there for everyone to see.

Actually, there are a lot of old time Ukrainian military tech experts working in China right now. They’ve been there since the late 90’s and turn of the century due to Ukraine’s own disarmament after separation from USSR. These experts found meaningful employments and fair treatments in China, and were contributors to the restoration of China’s first carrier.
Thus, it’s not like China didn’t know much about the hearts and souls of Ukrainians before drafting and proposing this Peace Proposal. I kinda think that they believe this has a fair chance of succeeding before floating it in such high profile.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Apr 28 2023 18:34 utc | 272

Clinton/Dubya/Obama/ type, et al, of them ‘Muricans courted Nazis and west-wannabes early on since the 90’s to encroach upon Russia’s border regions and ultimate subjugation of the Russians. China, Jiang Ze Ming/Hu Jintao/Xi Jinping et al, on the other hand courted ole time Ukrainians for their technical knowledge and socialistic sentiments at around the same juncture in contemporary global history. Both side tried to cultivate the hearts and souls of a new nation seeking out its role in modern day geopolitics.
Which side will ultimately win out???? Let’s wait and see.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Apr 28 2023 18:45 utc | 273

Peter AU1 | Apr 28 2023 9:12 utc | 216

That’s the nuts and bolts of the birds and the bees.

I absolutively love that !
Thanks.

Posted by: Sarlat La Canède | Apr 29 2023 16:38 utc | 274

@ Refinnejenna 163
Thanks for your reply. If China wants to infantalise the disagreements between
Shi’a and Sunni,( massively exacerbated by USUKIS divide rule ), by limiting the discussion to “”” interests “””, like Turkey ‘ s “”” interests “”” in Syria, (land grabs) , then their limited attention to the source of tensions will only exacerbate the tensions imho.
I don’t think China wants to discuss the undiscussable as they proclaim. I think they want to emphasise the benefits of exploring mutual “”” interests “””.
That’s a non- spiritual approach, a non-healing approach which I happen personally to disagree with.

Posted by: Giyane | Apr 29 2023 17:47 utc | 275

[citation needed] | Apr 28 2023 12:50 utc | 246

Moron. Three years US Army, 1967-1970, 1 year in Vietnam (9 months Cam Ranh Bay, 3 months Vung Ro Bay.) Fucking dumb Aussies need to roast their dicks on the barbie before commenting.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 28 2023 10:49 utc | 229
Off topic- Do you recall the name of the Base Commander at Cam Ranh when you were there?

Putain de merde! What kind of s*** even poses a question like that ?
Y’all leave my grumpy uncle Hack alone, y’hear ?

Posted by: Sarlat La Canède | Apr 29 2023 18:24 utc | 276