Since both US and EU claim they are not at war with Russia, it makes sense neither US nor EU should be part of peace discussions.

Posted by: Passerby | Apr 27 2023 16:47 utc | 1

Where is the United States aid to Ukraine going? Who really wants the war to end? Overnight millionaires popping up in Kyiv/ Kiev Ukraine.

Here https://twitter.com/AbrahamStein8/status/1651630173383532558?s=20

Posted by: Dave Oneil | Apr 27 2023 16:52 utc | 2

Can China convince to Ukraine to surrender? Because thats the only solution for Russia. This solution means Zelenski and the Nazis have to answer for their crimes. And so this is not a solution for Zelenski and so the only solution for Russia then is to capture of Kiev while Poland and Romania taking their parts of their historic lands.

Posted by: Baumanov | Apr 27 2023 16:57 utc | 3

"way too soon after just getting word of this conversation to speculate about" whether the call should foster optimism about China's peace plan.

"Thus far, China has not shown itself to be unbiased when it comes to supporting Russia," the official said.

why the constant anonymity from US officials? Why can't we know who is speaking for the US? is this Blinken, Nuland, Sullivan?

Posted by: annie | Apr 27 2023 17:04 utc | 4

Thanks for the posting b

I think the big thing about this is the timing. That said, there are parts of what we are seeing that says we are watching a scripted play worked out years in advance, IMO.

The proxy war in Ukraine is lost and a solution needs to be "found". Up steps China into the world leadership seat. It is going to be interesting to watch how empire plays the Taiwan game at the same time as negotiating a loss of Ukraine under China mediation.

But the US markets are all up today so they are winning.......correct?

The future is not evenly distributed and reality adjustments in some sectors can be quite jarring......sigh

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 27 2023 17:12 utc | 5

There are problems between states that cannot be solved through negotiations.
The West has gone all in with its actions (supplying weapons, training soldiers, providing financial support, sanctions).
I think China wants to avoid an escalation towards nuclear war by taking some of the wind out of the sails of the warring parties.This suits the Russian side, because every day the Ukrainian war machine loses disproportionately in moral strength, personnel and equipment.

Thank you @b for raising the issue!
Und Grüße aus der Heimat

Posted by: Oberbayer | Apr 27 2023 17:12 utc | 6

annie@4
They have a machine-Artificial Unintelligence- which churns out these comments as well as writing speeches for the UN Ambassador and the Canadian foreign minister. Soon it will be an app anyone can download.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 27 2023 17:13 utc | 7

The best thing that could happen would be Zelensky flipping over to the pan-Eurasian side or being replaced by someone who will flip to that side (latter more likely of the two, but neither is very likely).

It's also possible that Zelensky is just following orders from Washington to talk to Xi for PR purposes, which the west can use to create another PR story that China is welcome to the peace process, provided it forces Russia to end the war and withdraw from everywhere and therefore enforcing Washington's rules based order. This is one theory that was suggested and likely.

The most realistic scenarios to occur are either Ukraine leadership flips internally away from the Western control (will result internal upheavel and probably pro-west people emigrating away from central and eastern Ukraine), or a rump Ukrainian state in the west (SMO continues till all the nazis pushed to an area in the west and they can't anymore cause trouble in the east a la Syria/Idlib playbook).

China has heck of a lot more to offer for Ukraine than the US. Chinese firms are already doing business in Donbass, in the commodity/raw material side, and will most likely be involved in rebuilding and make investments in eastern and central Ukraine. In fact, it's very possible that Chinese firms will end up taking the prize of resources in central Ukraine, that was originally meant for BlackRock et.co.

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 27 2023 17:13 utc | 8

kirby forgot to use the verb ‘brutal’.. demerit points for that slip up kirby! of course he could wax on about how unbiased the usa is with regard to ukraine, if he were to entertain any parallel with his ongoing babble here…the problem with a bully or unipolar dictatorship is how they don’ do peace or negotiation.. it is either dominate or be dominated.. that is more usa then kentucky fried chicken..

eliminate any sane voices.. better yet~ fire anyone for speaking truth to power.. blame it on russian disinfo too.. have they hired someone who ix cia to replace tucker carlson yet?

thanks for the update b…

Posted by: james | Apr 27 2023 17:14 utc | 9

Aho is running Ukraibe really? A political elite, the oligarchs, the western Ukraine nationalists or the US? We shall see ahortly who in Ukraine has a voice in those talks with the Chinese envoy. I am anxious to know the answer to that question.

Posted by: Richard L | Apr 27 2023 17:18 utc | 10

We need to understand that the owners and masters do not care about us. At all. They do not want what is good for all or what is advantageous for all. The only economic outlook is pillage and plunder. Bill Gates and Juval Harari openly talk about reducing the population- reducing it a lot. War does not bother these people. War can be a desired end. Who you and I see as winners and losers is not a consideration. The owners see themselves personally as winning regardless of which nations lose.

Posted by: oldhippie | Apr 27 2023 17:19 utc | 11

As a realist and not a pessimist I think China's position will be to pick up the pieces after Ukraine collapses and to lead in cleaning up the mess.

Lu Hui's placement gives him the opportunity to gather experience and place teams for restructuring Ukraine after the fall.

Posted by: too scents | Apr 27 2023 17:22 utc | 12

I meant Who is runninh .... My finger is too large for the software keyboard.

Posted by: Richard L | Apr 27 2023 17:22 utc | 13

A pause or peace would be a huge mistake for russia and also a lie because ukaine will have the chance to receive even more weapons to then attack

Posted by: Alex | Apr 27 2023 17:24 utc | 14

🇷🇺🇹🇷The main thing from VP's statements at the ceremony of fuel delivery to the Akkuyu NPP:

◾️ Russia and Turkey intend to further develop economic and trade relations

◾️ With the launch of the gas hub in Turkey, the trade turnover between Ankara and Moscow will continue to grow

◾️ Russian gas supplies to third countries will be carried out when transactions are made through a gas hub being launched in Turkey

◾️ Turkey is a member of the club of developed countries with the registration of the Akkuyu NPP as a nuclear facility

◾️ The Russian Federation and Turkey are in favor of increasing the number of flights between the two countries

Putin said that in a telephone conversation he had reached a number of important agreements with Erdogan, including on the growth of trade turnover.

◾️ Russia is and will continue to be in close contact with the IAEA regulatory authorities during the construction of Akkuyu

◾️Russia will continue to reliably provide Turkey with energy resources, primarily gas

◾️Technically, the Akkuyu NPP is equipped with the newest and safest equipment in the world

◾️Erdogan's initiative to send flour from Russian grain free of charge from Turkey to countries in need is being worked out

◾️The Russian Federation will soon supply Turkey with a large batch of building materials for reconstruction after the earthquake. Russia is always ready to extend a hand of friendly support to Turkish partners.

🇷🇺🇹🇷Erdogan's statements at the ceremony of delivering nuclear fuel to the Akkuyu nuclear power plant:

◾️Turkey joins the club of countries with nuclear energy, albeit with a delay of 60 years

◾️All four reactors at the Akkuyu NPP will be operational by 2028

◾️Akkuyu NPP is Turkey's largest joint investment with Russia

◾️The Turkish leader also, on his own behalf and on behalf of the people of Turkey, thanked Russia and Putin for the construction of the Akkuyu nuclear power plant.

Posted by: Russia and Turkey | Apr 27 2023 17:25 utc | 15

https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/europe-reveals-map-breaking-up-russia-into-41-new-countries

Posted by: Andrew | Apr 27 2023 17:27 utc | 16

Annie no. 4

"why the constant anonymity from US officials? Why can't we know who is speaking for the US? is this Blinken, Nuland, Sullivan?"

Probably Mickey Mouse, that's why they aren't saying. 😂

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Apr 27 2023 17:32 utc | 17

Since the US/UK/NATO have sabotaged past attempted peace talks they should be excluded from any future talks, they can not trusted.

Posted by: expat.jr | Apr 27 2023 17:33 utc | 18

CNN - Expectations of Ukrainian counteroffensive "overheated," defense minister says

First confirmed Gepard destruction by Lancet, full video posted in future (4 Ukrainian 3-SOO also claimed destroyed)

Posted by: A200 | Apr 27 2023 17:33 utc | 19

yeah… its another disney. / hollywood type production..

Posted by: james | Apr 27 2023 17:34 utc | 20

@ Russia and Turkey | Apr 27 2023 17:25 utc | 15

Yes, relations between Erdogan and Putin are mutually beneficial.

Big unknown: What happens this relationship if/when Erdogan loses the upcoming election .... and the Ukraine/Black Sea issues - the polls tend to strongly support the opposition rainbow coalition

David Hearst has his say here:

Turkey elections: Would Kilicdaroglu surrender Ankara's independence?

The opposition leader's urge to please the US, EU and Nato would not bode well for the region

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/turkey-elections-would-kilicdaroglu-surrender-ankara-independence

Posted by: Don Firineach | Apr 27 2023 17:39 utc | 21

China cannot lose in being perceived as a 'peacemaker' even if it does not result in peace.

The Russians will grind on until they can achieve their stated objectives. Not stated, but implicit IMHO is Odessa. I cannot see the Russians leaving an option on the table for the US Navy going there.

Z cannot be trusted and likely the Chinese will also see it that way. Blinken can also not be trusted and a way needs to found the save face, for him, the US and NATO. The Ukies, possibly Z himself, will need to be found in having failed in something crucial.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Apr 27 2023 17:40 utc | 22

Don't hold your breath. The war profiteers in the West and particularly in the Ukraine will sabotage any peace through negotiation. Zelensky is just desperately seeking a way out, not for Ukraine but for himself, so he could relocate to Tel Aviv, Canada or anywhere else to enjoy his share of the war loot. I don't know what Russia could be expected to give Ukraine in the negotiation except a security guarantee. And neither NATO nor the Banderites care about that. We should not forget that this war is not about Ukraine per se. Ukraine is just the front of the fight. I'm sure that the Chinese are well aware of that. This is not Iran and Saudi Arabia's stuff. So I'm inclined towards the scepticism of the Russian foreign affairs spokeswoman, Maria Zakharova, about the success of this effort.

Posted by: Steve | Apr 27 2023 17:41 utc | 23

How many times now has Russia stated that the West is, 'Agreement Incapable'?
So, why would Russia entertain any 'negotiations' knowing that it's a pack of lies?
More theatre...

Posted by: Ken Tucky | Apr 27 2023 17:44 utc | 24

A question? With the war in Ukraine going on now for over a year with massive financial and material support from the u,s, and Nato, Zelensky has been presented as a patriot military leader, and biden has been presented as the new,F.D.R. There has been literaly no mention of Igor Kolimoisky, both Zelensky's mentor, and the owner of Burisma, the gas company that employed Hunter biden at the rate of $80000 annually, or of biden's relation ship with him in the light of biden forcing the firing of the ukraine prosecutor in ivestigating coruption of the Burisma company. Could you shed some light on these issues. How is Kolimoisky fitting in to this Ukraine shit show?

Posted by: a machinist | Apr 27 2023 17:46 utc | 25

High Level and v. experienced Chinese diplomat is welcome

China has big skin in this game -

# Europe is a key market

# Forced by US to dump on Russia, Europe cannot afford to dump on China unless it wants to turn into the arze-hole of South Dakota and a deindustrialized wasteland

# The territory of what used to be known as Ukraine is a key transport route for the Belt and Road ... into and out of Europe

# The Russian Federation is a key partner to China for a range of reasons

# China realises that the US is basically fu€ked in Kiev and it does not want things to get seriously out of hand

# China is now at the Top Global Table

# Bread

Posted by: Don Firineach | Apr 27 2023 17:49 utc | 26

@ my own 11

The Chinese have become prosperous and secure in recent years. They assume, correctly, that most would like to be prosperous and secure. If they can offer a facility that aids everyone in having prosperity and security they have a winning plan. They think.

This paradigm does not work for the owners and masters in the West. They are personally ineffably secure and they have been personally prosperous for so long, for many important families already more than a thousand years, that they just assume cash and security are taken care of automatically. And they just do not care if their countrymen share in any of this. They do not care if their countries suffer. Immaterial. The only thing that might, on a temporary basis, improve their social manners even a little bit, would be liberal application of Madame la Guillotine. And that does not work well. French aristocracy was completely unbowed and is doing quite well thank you in present day. They have every reason to believe their reign will last forever.

Posted by: oldhippie | Apr 27 2023 17:50 utc | 27

If I correctly understand the players in this war game, the following holds up. The USA through NATO is not going to show flexibility. Nothing short of a victory will be acceptable. Russia at a minimum will insist on keeping the oblasts they have annexed, and will require some type of political accommodation in what is left of Ukraine. Whatever else the Chinese might do, they will not undermine Russia because the two countries need each other when dealing with the USA.

So, is there room for a settlement in this? I would think only if Ukraine can move from NATO to China as a benefactor-defender, and accept a degree of loss of independence to Russia.

Posted by: Jmaas | Apr 27 2023 17:52 utc | 28

I admire the optimism here.

I would have expected the US to do its best to torpedo any chance of peace, just as it always does

Posted by: Et Tu | Apr 27 2023 17:55 utc | 29

It is not in China's interest for peace in Ukraine. The sooner there is peace in Ukraine the sooner the US will start the war over Taiwan. Better to let the US waste its resources in a war the Ukrainians will lose for the West.

Posted by: James Hammett | Apr 27 2023 17:58 utc | 30

" Since both US and EU claim they are not at war with Russia, it makes sense neither US nor EU should be part of peace discussions.

Posted by: Passerby | Apr 27 2023 16:47 utc | 1 "

Neither is Ukraine as its a SMO after all and not a war. SMH

Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | Apr 27 2023 17:59 utc | 31

" Yes, relations between Erdogan and Putin are mutually beneficial.

Posted by: Don Firineach | Apr 27 2023 17:39 utc | 21 "

Thats a unique way of explaining why Turkey keeps selling drones to Ukraine and why it supports the head choppers in Syria.

Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | Apr 27 2023 18:03 utc | 32

James no. 20

"yeah… its another disney. / hollywood type production.."

With equally bad plot and even worse actors.

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Apr 27 2023 18:07 utc | 33

@ Deplorable Commissar | Apr 27 2023 18:03 utc | 32

I thought you were barred for ungentlemanly conduct and puerile heckling of guest patrons last week ...

... think I'll just move to the other side of the bar.

Posted by: Don Firineach | Apr 27 2023 18:14 utc | 34

Unless I imagined Zelenski bragging last year about transforming Ukraine into a second Israel, but stricter, progress toward a China-brokered peace process will be long, slow and bumpy.

It won't surprise me if China bails out on the grounds that its efforts were premature.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Apr 27 2023 18:18 utc | 35

US will attempt to try to sell something to China in exchange if they try to force Russia end SMO before it results in the desired consequences of pushing Nato influence and physically out of Ukraine.

It's also possible, China is thinking that they may be able to isolate EU from US through pushing to end SMO on the terms of the west (although this by itself is a contradiction). They may think that they can push US out of Europe and force Europe to regain strategic independence... but any bargaining with Ukraine that results in favorable outcome for Washington regime would be a big miscalculation.

I think China is there to offer an alternative for Ukraine. The motive of Washington/Zelensky could be to gain a ceasefire to buy time for SMO round two. Xi probably knows the real score.

There can be no EU or US involved in a peace process. My guess is China will find someone on the opposite spectrum of Zelensky to negotiate with, and offer that better deal to them, which might result pulling Ukraine, or whatever left of it, away from Washington's spphere.

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 27 2023 18:37 utc | 36

China just got a headstart. The real negotiations will start after the Ukrainian offensive runs its course and if it fails then and only then will a peaceful settlement can be reached with China being the midwife.

Posted by: A.z | Apr 27 2023 18:45 utc | 37

The destruction of 1 Gepard and 3 S-300 by Russian Lancets was released.

Posted by: A200 | Apr 27 2023 18:48 utc | 38

So far china's predictions of peace by the summer seems on track. Can't hardly believe Biden is letting China usurp the US's leadership but here we are.

Overall though it's good from the perspective of dismantling the global American empire, so yay?

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Apr 27 2023 18:51 utc | 39

Psychohistorian (5): There are only two outcomes of any China-brokered peace deal between Russia nad Ukraine--the demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine. BTW, the markets are up not for any reason related to Ukrainian peace but because Jerome Powell and the Fed just printed a couple of more billion that Blackrock, Vanguard, and State Street will spread around Wall Street.

Posted by: FHTEX | Apr 27 2023 19:00 utc | 40

PEACE?

The USA can not afford anything less than a regime change in Russia where it firmly controls the Russian Federation either directly or indirectly.

If the USA does not take Russia down, it will quickly lose the world reserve currency status for the United States Dollar. 3 months after the USA loses this status, you will not recognize the USA. It will quickly fall into 3rd World status and worse.

The USA can not afford for this to happen. So, regardless of any PEACE deals in the work, PEACE, just is not going to happen.

The need for the USA to protect its hegemony is a trap for the USA. It can not get out of this trap. It will not get out of this trap. It will die with the snare of hegemony tightly closed upon one of its legs.

The coming PEACE negotiations brokered by China will further throw the peoples of the USA into a more unreal world that it already is walking in.

Before Russia agrees to anything, it will initiate a first strike upon the USA with nukes. Most likely this will come immediately after it takes and secures the Donbas.

Why take the Donbas first? Because by taking the Donbas, a rather dangerous army will be removed from its Western border. The Russians would rather see this army gone before it launches upon the USA. Also, I believe such is written in Daniel 7:5.

NOTE: There are no more red lines that the West needs to cross for Russia to take the action to launch a first strike upon Russia.

When? Soon (within the next couple of weeks) the City of Bakhmut will totally fall to the Wagner and other Russian forces. This will open a door way for further Russian advance in the Donbas. The Russians will do just that without any conventional restraint from this time forward. MY BEST GUESS at this time is that Russia will take and secure the entire Donbas by the end of June 2023. If so, the order to make final preparations for a nuclear launch against the USA will come on July 4, 2023. The order to launch and the order to launch will come on July 8, 2023.

REGARLESS: Regardless of any timing speculation by myself or others, the bear will not arise and devour much flesh in a nuclear launch until it has 3 ribs in its mouth between its teeth (Daniel 7:5). I count those 3 ribs to be Crimea, Luhansk, and Donetsk. The Donbas is considered to be both Luhansk and Donetsk.

What to do? Quickly get out of the USA no matter how well prepared you think you might be to survive there. It will be much better for you and your family to be elsewhere in the world than attempting to survive within any territory of the USA. Getting out of the USA before the Russian bear takes and secures all of the Donbas will save you and yours. Stocking more cans of beans and more ammo in a remote area within the USA will not save you. This is based upon Jeremiah 50 found in the Bible where the USA is the last days Babylon. It will be completely destroyed for it has sinned against the Lord.

Posted by: young | Apr 27 2023 19:00 utc | 41

As expected, the Outlaw US Empire was dishonest about the content of the phone conversation. During his post UNSC Meeting presser on Tuesday, the Ukraine was mentioned 34 times covering almost every possible context. I highly suggest it be read for you can discern Russia's position from Lavrov's answers. The regimes in Kiev that have existed since 2014 are considered to be criminal organizations as well as their Masters/Sponsors. Russia's SMO is seen as a duty, which includes the liberation of all ethnic Russians; and it also sees the need to end Neoliberal hegemony as its duty as well and has said so several times. NATO is a tool of that hegemony, so it must be eliminated. Russia has stated its willingness to negotiate many times, which at the same time it's also said it needs a credible entity with which to negotiate.

In addition, there're the many revelations provided almost weekly by Maria Zakharova during her briefings, and today's is no exception. Here are two key paragraphs:

We have taken note of yet another extremist statement by Advisor to the Head of the Office of the President of Ukraine Mykola Podolyak. On April 25, on the air of the Ukrainian TV channel TSN, he said that Kiev "legally has the right to destroy everything that is on the territory of Crimea, Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporozhye and Kherson regions." Everyone has already understood that this is the logic of not just destruction, but the destruction of the rebellious and uncontrollable, that which is knocked out of nationalist logic. It is she who is the ideology of the Kyiv regime. I would like to thank you for once again publicly admitting this and "signing" that they no longer hide what we have been talking about for all these long eight years. We were then persuaded that it seemed to us. No, I don't think so. They are already openly, apparently realizing that they no longer have the strength and ability to restrain themselves directly and not veiled, but as it is, talk about destruction. Now, however, they still come up with the idea that they have legal and legal rights. They don't care if they have them or not, they will still destroy.

This is yet another confirmation of how the Zelensky regime actually treats these regions of Russia and the people living there, whom it intended to "liberate". This, in their understanding, apparently, is "destroying". The devastating raids and ruthless extermination of civilians are the methods of the very representatives of the Kiev regime whom we accused of neo-Nazism and a penchant for the reincarnation of the fascist practices of the past. It is precisely the practices that were in the past in these territories that are now being restored. Representatives of the Kyiv regime openly talk about this. Remember the atrocities in the occupied Soviet territory? Then, too, there was the idea of the complete destruction of the people living there. Mikhail Podolyak has just said this. Their ideological supporters from among the Ukrainian neo-Nazis also strive to adhere to this practice. For them, these are foreign lands and people. Under such conditions, the conscious choice of the inhabitants of Crimea, Donbass, Kherson and Zaporozhye in favor of reunification with Russia was timely and the only correct one, as time shows. Russia is able to protect its citizens and repel any enemy.

What's described was behind the rationale for the demand for Unconditional Surrender of the Nazi Axis during WW2--it was deemed impossible to negotiate with such people because of their beliefs and actions based on them. Russia rightly asks why should it be any different today. China has a similar outlook regarding Japan, but that's another story. Will that affect China's ability as a neutral? Only if it's made known.

IMO, as with WW2, the Axis must be forced to surrender. How that will be done this time is unknown, but it appears a hybrid solution is in the works combining the military with the economic. In six months, we ought to have a better idea.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 27 2023 19:01 utc | 42

Peace will be difficult because Ukraine entered into binding economic serfom under the US. The military aid sent was not a gift, but a lend/lease. The infrastructure of Ukraine is destroyed and now a significant portion of the young men are disabled and traumatized.

Neither China nor Russia will want to deeply invest in reconstruction unless Ukraine is taken out of the US' shadow. Zelensky doesn't have the power to do that, and the leaders of Ukraine would rightly fear covert assassination if loyalties waver.

What is likely being talked about, in line with China's attitude, is how to best save face when the Ukrainian military completely collapses and the US aid stops coming. At that point, it would be hard to condemn Ukraine internationally for shifting alliances.

Posted by: Matthew | Apr 27 2023 19:02 utc | 43

Apologies, but I am repeating myself. Comment 274 on the last string.

"If you look at the history of war, then the longer they go on, the more attitudes harden, the more extreme war aims become and there is a greater propensity to escalate using more horrible weapons - which might include genocide and starvation etc.

In WW1 US led peace talks in late 1916/17 faltered because everyone still thought they could win and everyone had lost too much already. Unrestricted U boat warfare brought in the USA which was the deciding factor in 1918. In WW2 we had the real genocide starting in 1941, in 1942 unconditional surrender,and 43/44/45 a mass bombing campaign against Germany and Japan, the latter who [lost] the A bomb stakes.

It would go against historical precedent for peace talks to break out now. If Russia believes it is winning then it has no reason to compromise its objectives, which will have changed. Ukraine meanwhile cannot force a negotiation, and will attack if it has a chance of getting the upper hand to start negotiations. But why would Russia talk from a position of temporary weakness? It will simply up the ante, raise more forces, deploy more weapons and possibly really nasty ones, and continue. It is fantasy to think that any Ukrainian attack could be so successful as to fatally woundthe Russian military and the regime and force some sort of surrender. Russia will win, it is just a matter of when, how and at what cost.

The danger in this is NATO and the USA consider that they are over committed and the whole things ends up in a NATO vs Russia shooting war. Which inevitably means MAD. And that is why I think China wants to calm this down.

There is no off ramp here for either Russia or Ukraine - one has to emerge victorious and the other will now lose. The key variable is what NATO/USA does next. I do not consider that they can actually win a conventional war against Russia but have been proved wrong before. But once one or other side starts losing in that hypothetical confrontation, the nuclear gloves come off.

I'm off to have another drink. May need the space in my cellar..."

Posted by: marcjf | Apr 27 2023 19:04 utc | 44

Imo, Russia and China (and India?) should be making far more frequent references to the UN Charter than they do at present. There's a lot of collective wisdom in that document and even the Outlaw US Vampires can't unilaterally declare Wisdom to be redundant or irrelevant, and expect to be taken seriously.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Apr 27 2023 19:06 utc | 45

" Imo, Russia and China (and India?) should be making far more frequent references to the UN Charter than they do at present. There's a lot of collective wisdom in that document and even the Outlaw US Vampires can't unilaterally declare Wisdom to be redundant or irrelevant, and expect to be taken seriously.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Apr 27 2023 19:06 utc | 45 "

Why ? The UN charter is unenforceable against powerful nations, not to mention the VETO power of the security, scam, council.

Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | Apr 27 2023 19:08 utc | 46

b says: "His most difficult task is to bring the U.S. on board of any potential solution."

I think that's not quite right. His task is to squeeze the U.S. out of the situation.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Apr 27 2023 19:09 utc | 47

Erdogan will not allow himself to be replaced. Probably will declare himself president for life. Although I would prefer outright white nationalist Nazis lose, our corporate masters don't really give a damn! they don't have a side only market opportunities.

Posted by: Little girl | Apr 27 2023 19:09 utc | 48

" @ Deplorable Commissar | Apr 27 2023 18:03 utc | 32

I thought you were barred for ungentlemanly conduct and puerile heckling of guest patrons last week ...

... think I'll just move to the other side of the bar.

Posted by: Don Firineach | Apr 27 2023 18:14 utc | 34 "

If you think that comment was heckling or poor conduct then you'd better move to the other side as you would be under great delusion. I know you probably want a "circle jerk " echo chamber discussion here, but whats the fun in that ?

Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | Apr 27 2023 19:12 utc | 49

#1; regarding that which is said in the US and EU; it is always bullshit. I know this because I have been on this iceberg for a long time and I have never heard a truth, let alone a whole truth come out of my government. They have lied about everything. The do it to use against others as leverage. They have to have them some leverage. So they spy, steal, kill threaten, kidnap, imprison and execute those they don't like in the dead of night. They know nothing else. I didn't know that the government of the UK, Sweden, Norway, France, Poland, Romania, the Baltics, the US were nazi's until I saw them throw their whole hearted support to nazi's and heaping praise that was unbelievable to me. I was surprised when Israel joined in supporting the nazi's and realized how mad these people are. You can't go back once you realize the unipolar world order is based on the ideals of the Third Reich.
support those that never spread lies. Or it will never end.

Posted by: Tard | Apr 27 2023 19:13 utc | 50

" Although I would prefer outright white nationalist Nazis lose, our corporate masters don't really give a damn! they don't have a side only market opportunities.

Posted by: Little girl | Apr 27 2023 19:09 utc | 48 "

Correct, damn those White nationalists and their current ability of being easy targets of slander without any repercussions. I'm sure you think the exact same thing about African, Asian, Arab and other nationalist too. However, those pesky White ones deserve most of your vitriol, after all, they run the US currently as shown below.

Fight on social justice warrior, fight on.

https://twitter.com/VoteRandyFine/status/1651521916337790980?cxt=HHwWiICxodmbsestAAAA

Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | Apr 27 2023 19:17 utc | 51

Warum werden zur Zeit 8.000 Ukrainer-Soldaten in USA, GB und Germany ausgebildet???

Posted by: Charly1 | Apr 27 2023 19:18 utc | 52

Posted by: Baumanov | Apr 27 2023 16:57 utc | 3:

Can China convince to Ukraine to surrender?

Does Ukraine have a viable alternative but to surrender?, ruling out, of course, the alternative of fighting until the last Ukies.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Apr 27 2023 19:21 utc | 53

Since is mostly about the US cut on rhe Silk Road Train Trade, Zelensky must talk.
300,000 dead Ukranians says Russia Bad, No cut for you for maintaining the track across the continent and supply the electricity or fuel.

China won't get involved in the blame game. There's enough money to go round romntransportation for everybody.
It's just tough that a whole load of Nazis had to die for this simple trade deal.

Posted by: Giyane | Apr 27 2023 19:22 utc | 54

The China "peace plan" is strategic political manuevering, nothing more. China would prefer peace as would the whole world, minus of course, the war corporations and the US/NATO warmongering neocons.

Russia could accept a "peace plan", but wouldn't that be swell to allow the USA to rearm Ukraine, host nukes and start the whole shebang all over again. Russia could do that, but then Russia would reap the whirlwind from that decision. I am sure that the Russian people would not mind the blood and treasure and tens of thousands dead and injured just to go through the whole goddamn conflict in a few years.

Russia has to forever alter Ukraine, its political make-up, its russophobe leadership and rid it forever of the ability to be controlled by the USA.

Else, rinse and repeat in 2027.

Posted by: Sundance | Apr 27 2023 19:27 utc | 55

"Brazilian President Lula da Silva - on ending the conflict in Ukraine: The first thing to understand is that this war should not have started. And it began because there had been no opportunity for dialogue between world leaders for a long time. Either I'm feeding the war, or I'm trying to put an end to this war. No one [tries to stop her]. Nobody. But I am the one who talks about the world. I spoke with Xi Jinping, Biden, Scholz and Macron. It is necessary to form a group of countries ready to negotiate a ceasefire. I want the war to end. And the only way to do this is to negotiate at the table. This is my thesis. I think Europe should play the role of mediator, it should choose a middle way. But that's not the case now. Europe is quickly getting involved in this process."

https://t.me/Slavyangrad/43573

Posted by: Apollyon | Apr 27 2023 19:30 utc | 56

"Russia as well as Ukraine agreed to it."

No, Russia did not. Go back and read the news reports from Russia, b.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 27 2023 19:31 utc | 57

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 27 2023 17:12 utc | 5:

The proxy war in Ukraine is lost and a solution needs to be "found". Up steps China into the world leadership seat. It is going to be interesting to watch how empire plays the Taiwan game at the same time as negotiating a loss of Ukraine under China mediation.

Yes Historian, the proxy war is appearing untenable. But western brainwashed commenters have the tendency of putting too much into the Taiwan issue, as if the west recognition of Taiwan Independence would de facto render Taiwan independent.

Today's Taiwan means nothing to China beside an impact on its global image. China does not relish the rule of Taiwan, with a population develishly brainwashed to hate their own heritage, lazy and incompetent in the same mode and image and their idols-the West and Japan-, and societal order deteriorating just like their idol the West. It's the same as Hong Kong. Is China eager to actually rule Hong Kong??? Hell no! Just let it twist in the wind on its own, as it wished.

Both Taiwan and Hong Kong have no mobile legs to walk away, to either the USA or to Japan. China is getting stronger and stronger. The day of China issuing ultimatum, saying "come under my rule" to Taiwan and Hong Kong, and make it stick, is within the life span of most barflies here, including 70+ years olds like myself.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Apr 27 2023 19:36 utc | 58

It doesn't matter what China wants. Russia is calling the shots here. Period. End of story.

There will be no negotiations. If there are, Russia has lost the war.

Another reason I should just ignore all this dumb monkey shit.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 27 2023 19:36 utc | 59

Perplexed that b seems to be suggesting that this is the 'right moment' for negotiations--from a proRussian perspective, this seems like an entirely unsuitable time for negotiations, or at least for a ceasefire, which would simply permit NATO to coax their rickety defense-industrial machine into gear.

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Apr 27 2023 19:39 utc | 60

China needs the West to buy its trinkets, if Russia goes and destroys the West then China will have no market, that's why China wants peace. What's this about Israel finally coming out on the side of the Nazi's?

Posted by: gT | Apr 27 2023 19:41 utc | 61

Any negotiated settlement at this point would be a defeat for Russia. Any settlement that leaves Ukraine in a position where Nato can rearm and reequip it just means another war will follow.

Any settlement that leaves Odessa in Ukrainian possession will be bad for Russia as their Naval base in the Crimea will become greatly compromised.

If Russia hopes for a positive settlement through negotiation, they will need to step up their military game. The Russians may think time is on their side, and maybe they are right, but they are gambling.

What people in the west think, matters. Right now most people think Russia may win, but they are being beaten in the fight. Real peace will only be possible if people in the west think Ukraine has been defeated, not just in terms of arithmetic, but also having been out fought.

Russia has not yet demonstrated that it has outfought Ukraine. Thus people will think Russia is not really dangerous, can be beaten by Nato and thus is not deserving of respect. War is only successful if political objectives are achieved. Russia is still far, far from achieving the objectives it needs. The Russian government may think they can get away with less, but they will just be ensuring another war down the line where Nato will be better prepared.

On the other hand, when wars end, exhaustion sets in. The damage that has been done to Ukrainian civil order may be enough, that even a less than desired settlement for Russia may still suffice as the reality dawns on Ukrainian civilians of the real costs of being citizens of a state that is itself in service to a neo-pagan ideology rather than the future of it's citizens.

Posted by: Dan Farrand | Apr 27 2023 19:44 utc | 62

@49

please stop using the term "echo chamber". It's an insult to all rationable beings here. Focus on this site is on critical thinking whatever trolls claim.

Posted by: Anthony | Apr 27 2023 19:44 utc | 63

@too scents, #12:

Li Hui was appointed because he is VERY fluent in Russian language, and VERY familiar with nuances and body languages of the Slavic culture. He is highly qualified for the role he is appointed.

He also is very high in the pecking order of diplomats in China. Any higher than his present position, he would make a State Councilor.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Apr 27 2023 19:47 utc | 64

Prigozhin, what a pimple in the ass of Uncle Sam, this morning he announced a supposed cease fire since he was informed by some Ukro commander that a couple of US journos were going to visit Bakhmut/Artyomovsk. A couple of hours later he trolls as only he knows how, hey you guys no sense of humor? The days when yankees roamed the globe and got to bed nice British girls for a candy bar or a pack of Lucky Strikes are long gone, but the western press has not realized yet the mess they got into and ran with headlines about some cease fire.

Prigozhin does not rush to announce his successes, to the contrary he is always calling on everybody to hold their horses until facts are absolutely confirmed, so I was a little surprised first to find out he has an account in VKontakte and second, that in that account he announces that “all roads to Bakhmut to supply the AFU are under our control”.

All roads to Bakhmut

https://vk.com/evgeny_prigozhin

Posted by: Paco | Apr 27 2023 19:50 utc | 65

I'm sorry, but I have very little taste for this sort of stuff. I don't want a negotiated peace settlement just so China can look like it's doing something. That doesn't address the causes of the conflict whatsoever. The realists in the Chinese government have to know that this war isn't going to end anytime soon and that Russia is in no mood to negotiate anything, so that really raises the question of what China's purpose in doing this is.

I have an answer to that, although I'm not sure if anyone is ready to take me seriously on it...yet. The difficulty people have in understanding Chinese policy consists in overestimating Chinese shrewdness and seriousness. The simple fact of the matter is , Xi Jinping is a colossal wussy. His behavior during the Covid lockdowns has no other explanation than to signal to the Western powers that "China is just as good as you! Please, please let me join the club! Look, we can even lock down better than anyone else!" Also, his response to Nancy Pelosi's stunt-landing in Taiwan was weak and pathetic. He complained and complained and said "Don't you dare!" over and over again, and then he just let it happen anyway, with no consequences. The Chinese "peace proposal" is nothing more than another virtue signal from Xi, and it's really disgusting.

Xi has got to be the weakest of Chinese doves. I'm there are other members of the CCP who are absolutely furious over this, but I would like some conformation from someone who actually follows Chinese politics with more insider knowledge.

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Apr 27 2023 19:51 utc | 66

@b: Du übersiehst hier etwas, glaube ich. Die Rede ist davon ,dass Mr. Lu Hui nicht nur für Russland und die Ukraine anreisen wird, sondern, Zitat: "to Ukraine and other countries to have in-depth communication with all parties on the political settlement of the Ukraine crisis". Ich bin gespannt, welche Länder das sein werden. Die USA werden höchstwahrscheinlich gerade nicht darunter sein. Denk an Iran und Saudi-Arabien - keine Beteiligung oder Hinzuziehung der USA (wir hier - MoA-Leser - würden sagen: DIE Voraussetzung für Erfolg).
Wir werden sehen.
Grüße, S.W.

For the convenience of most other readers:
@b: You're missing something here, I think. It says that Mr. Lu Hui will not only travel for Russia and Ukraine, but, quote: "to Ukraine and other countries to have in-depth communication with all parties on the political settlement of the Ukraine crisis". I am curious to see which countries these will be. The US will most likely not be among them right now. Think of Iran and Saudi Arabia - no US participation or involvement (we here - MoA readers - would say: THE prerequisite for success).
We will see.
Greetings, S.W.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Posted by: SW (also Berlin) | Apr 27 2023 19:52 utc | 67

Maybe China's role here isn't about getting the Russians to "negotiate" anything. China's role is to flip Z to Eurasia. Russia provides the security guarantees. Banderites run off to Europe and would then be Europe's problem, as well as all the hardware from NATO floating around. The US gets screwed, Europe goes adrift or they weasel their way into the new paradigm. Russia continues it's SMO until their objectives from late 2021 are achieved. All from a position of ultimate leverage. The US and EU will downplay any Chinese involvement and be seen as the malcontents they are by the global south. Maybe they go mental, maybe they don't.

Posted by: Digital Spartacus | Apr 27 2023 19:53 utc | 68

Two things have to happen before this conflict ends: Ukraine has to know their situation is hopeless (the impending fall of Bakhmut will help move them in that direction a little more). US politicians have to know this is hopeless (many in military already see that but the effusive liars in congress will never abandon their rhetoric, as long as it sells to the US public).

What will it take to move the US there? IMO, de-dollarization and a collapse of the US economy. Since the US has little uniting it except the pursuit of riches, an economic collapse will quickly bring a social collapse, finger-pointing, urban riots, marches on DC, and secession of a number of states. What the leaders were hoping to bring about in Russia.

Keep in mind that while Russia has outlined the objectives of the SMO in broad terms, there hasn't been any specifics. At the very least I expect that Ukraine will have to accept the loss of the 4 oblasts, and I can't imagine them giving up on Odessa, considering its historical and cultural significance and economic relevance, leaving Ukraine without water access.

Xi's call was to let Boy Z know that there are other options beside the West.

Posted by: Mike R | Apr 27 2023 19:54 utc | 69

A machinist no. 25

He's probably incapacitated somewhere with his hands and feet bound and duct tape across his mouth.

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Apr 27 2023 19:56 utc | 70

Posted by: Mike R | Apr 27 2023 19:54 utc | 69

"I can't imagine them [Russia] giving up on Odessa."

Posted by: Mike R | Apr 27 2023 19:57 utc | 71

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Apr 27 2023 19:51 utc | 66

I skipped a word. I should have said, "I'm sure there are other members of the CCP who are absolutely furious over this."

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Apr 27 2023 19:59 utc | 72

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Apr 27 2023 19:36 utc | 58

You're so wrong in your conclusion over DieOne and Hong Kong.

In the case of HK, Beijing is in full control of every aspect of the administration. Yellow Carrie and her administration of colonial worshippers have been effectively purged from all high posts of any form of control. Now the Hammer is hanging over the last vestige of western coup success which is in the bugs riddened wigs of the courts. They are systematically reminded that they are on Chinese territory and their White masters are far far away. These judges can be sidelined until their retirement and more ideologically loyal pro China cadres moved up.

On DieOne it's obvious US is pushing China to liberate the island by force using their Nazi proxy DPP. But DPP is NOT rushing into any proclamation of independence that will automatically trigger the Chinese liberation.
The simple reason is DieOneses are not stupid. They want their cake and eat it too. They want status quo. They want their bread. They know DieOne has no engines to sail away from mainland. They don't want PLA on the island but that's what will happen if they sleep. They want to make money from mainland. DPP doesn't have the masses with them at all. They are an extremist party build on hate of the motherland. Their core is very small.

The local elections have been setbacks to them as the people voted along bread and butter lines, not ideological bullshit of "independence" which everyone knows DieOne will be smashed totally.

The only problem facing China is that the opposition KMT is hopelessly corrupt and incapable of rejuvenation into a tight and clean outfit able to push their own agenda and convince the electorate.

Both the ordinary DieOneses and China would very happily kick the can down the road.
Their biggest opponent is US which is desperate to trigger War in Asia.

Posted by: Surferket | Apr 27 2023 20:00 utc | 73

@ marcjf | Apr 27 2023 19:04 utc | 44
It would go against historical precedent for peace talks to break out now. If Russia believes it is winning then it has no reason to compromise its objectives, which will have changed.

There's also another consideration: ". . . that their sacrifice was not in vain."

General Colin Powell, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Nov 11, 1989
GENERAL POWELL: Secretary Derwinski, General Hilbert, National Commander Carter, National President Handy, distinguished representatives of the government, fellow veterans.
It is a privilege for me to represent President Bush in honoring a very special group of Americans today -- America’s veterans. I can think of no place I, as a soldier, and as an American citizen, and as a fellow veteran would rather be today than at this ceremony. And there is no more appropriate place to celebrate veterans day than here in Arlington National Cemetery in the silent, honored presence of those veterans who gave their last measure of devotion to their nation.
Their sacrifice in the name of peace and freedom have made this nation what it is today. By their sacrifice, they give us our strength, our vibrancy. We the living must ensure that their sacrifice was not in vain. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 27 2023 20:01 utc | 74

Negotiations: https://youtu.be/9TyxxLHfBwE

Posted by: William Gruff | Apr 27 2023 20:02 utc | 75

China to be making this move must have a serious plan as it doesn't do this sort of thing for the optics and the Chinese are no fools.

The vaunted offensive may or may not occur but if it does it will be the last throw of the dice in Ukraine for the US. After that it will pull the plug on Ukraine and then Ukraine will have to seriously negotiate, no matter who is leading it. When the US pulls the plug on Ukraine, Europe will to, if it does beforehand.

At the moment the west apart from supplying weapons also funds Ukraine's economy. Once the west pull the plug on Ukraine, they will quickly run out of weapons and what is left of its economy will crash. The Brits and Poles will no doubt try and keep the war going but they cannot supply enough weapons no money to keep the Ukraine economy afloat. A very different picture.

The objective of the offensive even if it does occur is only to try and put Ukraine in a better negotiating position. All the corrupt Ukraine leadership will be fully aware of that. It is likely China is positioning itself for when that time arrives with an envoy shuttling back and forth between Kiev and Moscow.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 27 2023 20:08 utc | 76

Here I disagree with b. Xi is role playing as Global peacemaker for the global south audience.
Talk to Elensky is talking to a wooden spoon. Ekensky cannot make decisions.
China knows that. Russia knows that. We all knew that long ago.
Elensky cannot give the security guarantees to make Russia stop. Period.
Russia knows that so they happily play along with the Chinese adventure.
Think of this as Good Cop and Bad Cop.

China gains international respect as neutral peacemaker for future conflicts.
Look at her stunning successes in the Middle East where US don't have their boots on the necks of those countries the way they have their boots on their pet Nazis in Ukraine and the rabid dogs in Baltic states.

Posted by: Surferket | Apr 27 2023 20:08 utc | 77

Here is another way of looking at it, a kind of neo-Zeihanist view:

China needs the global world order more than the U.S. does. China realizes that and is stepping up to try to maintain globalism. I think it's about time China started pulling their weight and I welcome the idea of a more ideologically and geopolitically balanced world order.

Posted by: GoFast | Apr 27 2023 20:11 utc | 78

To Paul Damascene 60 (and others)

Negotiations are always to late, never at the rigth time. People is dying. Nato should have respected Russia's plea for a negotiated solution i des 21. After til last Ukrainian defeate in 2015 minsk 2 was negotiated but never implemented. Germany and France saw to that.

This war should never have started. But it did and people are dying unnecessary.

The problem is that the US have never signed a peace agreement, not with Japan, Germany, Vietnam, Afgan, Iraq or any other. So whatever comes out of this they will say, like they did after the Minsk 2 - this deal (by the Chinees is unbalanced).

There will only be temporary peace. Cut up Ukr. give Poland the west- then it will be Germanys problem.

The russians problem is that they dont want Romania and Polish nuclear capable "defence batteries" at their borderes.

This will not be fixed in an agreement with the UA. But: Do not use Depleated Uranium could be a starting point in the negotiations.

I do not understand that the Chinees want to be part of this at all. There is no win/win for them here- only lose/lose.

But people are dying.

Posted by: Paul from Norway | Apr 27 2023 20:16 utc | 79

Don Bacon | Apr 27 2023 20:01 utc | 74

his Colin Powell?
"Their sacrifice in the name of peace and freedom have made this nation what it is today. By their sacrifice, they give us our strength, our vibrancy. We the living must ensure that their sacrifice was not in vain."

Those veterans need to talk to Smedly Butler about what they were sacrificed for.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 27 2023 20:20 utc | 80

@ 29. a macinist..

good question.. kolomoisky was zelenskys patron saint until zelensky got in power.. shortly after, the usa decided that kolomoisky needed to go as the cia/usa needed to be the new puppetmaster.. the us state dept issued some notices saying kolomoisky was wanted on criminal charges and would be arrested if he went to the usa.. i think he is holed up in israel at the moment.. not sure what is happening with his privat bank.. bottom line is the cia pushed him out..

@ thusspakrzarathus..

thanks.. your humour and frankness is appreciated..

Posted by: james | Apr 27 2023 20:20 utc | 81

I think it would be an acceptable, perhaps even preferable solution for Russia to give a part of Ukraine to Poland, because it will remove the de-facto and de-jure "plausible deniability platform" from Nato to wage war on Russia through proxy.

Everything that happens afterwards is Poland's responsibility. If they don't get things under control, it may help rupturing Nato. The rest, non rump part of Ukraine should one way or the other gain independence from the west.

Posted by: unimperator | Apr 27 2023 20:22 utc | 82

One of the major themes of this war is sovereignty (we can have NATO if we want to) vs. security (we can't stand enemies on our border).
Regarding the latter--This is Vermont’s independent Senator Bernie Sanders talking about the Monroe Doctrine last year, shortly before Russia invaded Ukraine.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: Mr. President, Vladimir Putin may be a liar and a demagogue, but it is hypocritical for the United States to insist that we, as a nation, do not accept the principle of spheres of influence. For the last 200 years, our country has operated under the Monroe Doctrine, embracing the principle that as the dominant power in the Western Hemisphere, the United States has the right, according to the United States, to intervene against any country that might threaten our alleged interests. That’s United States policy. And under this doctrine, the United States has undermined and overthrown at least a dozen countries throughout Latin America, Central America and the Caribbean.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 27 2023 20:22 utc | 83

@ 77 surfurket…. of course b knows all that too.. after all.. it is just a short article to engage some random talk..

Posted by: jaes | Apr 27 2023 20:24 utc | 84

spelling my name wrong with this stupid ipad.. time to stop..

Posted by: james | Apr 27 2023 20:27 utc | 85

Quote " In the spring of last year Turkey and Israel successfully helped to find a peace agreement. A good solution was found and Russia as well as Ukraine agreed to it. But the U.S. needed the war to continue. It sent the British prime minister Boris Johnson to Kiev to sabotage the deal. The Ukrainian president was told that the country would lose all 'western' support should it sign an agreement with Russia."

Unless England's ability to plot wars is annihilated, there will be no peace in the world. So world must unite to destroy pirate island. Other actions are just fitting away energy which parasite English want others to do.

In the spring of last year Turkey and Israel successfully helped to find a peace agreement. A good solution was found and Russia as well as Ukraine agreed to it. But the U.S. needed the war to continue. It sent the British prime minister Boris Johnson to Kiev to sabotage the deal. The Ukrainian president was told that the country would lose all 'western' support should it sign an agreement with Russia.

Posted by: Sam | Apr 27 2023 20:29 utc | 86

@Peter AU1 | Apr 27 2023 20:20 utc | 80
Those veterans need to talk to Smedley Butler about what they were sacrificed for.
Those veterans (to Powell) are dead, and so their death is treated as a reason to extend the war, otherwise they would have died in vain. Aztecs and Christians are familiar with this concept of sacrifice, 'blood of the lambs' in the latter case.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Apr 27 2023 20:31 utc | 87

In my comment above, I urged people to read what Lavrov said in his presser, but I didn't say to read his speech at the UNSC last Monday, although I should have. Fortunately, Pepe Escobar has done all barflies a favor by condensing what Lavrov said into an article covering the essential points he made. Here's the specific part related to Ukraine:

The geopolitics of the “Ukrainian issue”: [Lavrov] “Today, everyone understands, although not everyone talks about it out loud: this is not about Ukraine at all, but about how international relations will be built further: through the formation of a stable consensus based on a balance of interests – or through the aggressive and explosive promotion of hegemony. It is impossible to consider the ‘Ukrainian issue’ in isolation from the geopolitical context. Multilateralism presupposes respect for the UN Charter in all the interconnectedness of its principles, as mentioned above. Russia has clearly explained the tasks that it pursues as part of a special military operation: to eliminate the threats to our security created by NATO members directly on our borders and to protect people who have been deprived of their rights proclaimed by multilateral conventions, to protect them from the direct threats of extermination and expulsion from the territories where their ancestors lived for centuries publicly declared by the Kyiv regime. We honestly said what and for whom we are fighting.” [My Emphasis]

And that next to last sentence says what will be the basic basis for any peace pact. So as Lavrov bluntly stated, the entire European security issue that was addressed back in December 2021 will be the content addressed by any peace pact, not just Ukraine. China understands that, but the blockhead, birdbrains in the West are incapable of grasping that reality that they will be the losers and have the terms dictated to them. We ought to assume Team Biden will never agree and will need to be replaced for any peace pact to be made. The EU/NATO nexus must also be rendered asunder as any agreement will not allow NATO on Union State borders. Thus, as I alluded to in my comment above the question becomes: How long will it take for credible negotiators to be revealed within the West? 2029?

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 27 2023 20:34 utc | 88

Don Bacon

Thank you for reminding us:

This is truly the saddest I have read today:

- me to represent President Bush in honoring a very special group of Americans today -- America’s veterans. I can think of no place I, as a soldier, and as an American citizen, and as a fellow veteran would rather be today than at this ceremony. And there is no more appropriate place to celebrate veterans day than here in Arlington National Cemetery in the silent, honored presence of those veterans who gave their last measure of devotion to their nation.
Their sacrifice in the name of peace and freedom have made this nation what it is today. By their sacrifice, they give us our strength, our vibrancy. We the living must ensure that their sacrifice was not in vain.

I read at the Military Zone at THE DRIVE.com that the UA has just made a monument for the fictional Ghost of Kiev. And are planning to make their own Arlington!!!

Sad, Sad, sad

Posted by: Paul from Norway | Apr 27 2023 20:37 utc | 89

Don Bacon | Apr 27 2023 20:31 utc | 87

Everything I have seen US do is about capital and expansion, first territorial expansion and then economic hegemon expansion. Just a few short years of the time between revolution and now that the US has not been at war.

Smedly Butler's 12 page essay War is a Racket
https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf (pdf opens online)
Contents
Chapter 1: War Is A Racket
Chapter 2: Who Makes The Profits?
Chapter 3: Who Pays The Bills?
Chapter 4: How To Smash This Racket!
Chapter 5: To Hell With War

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Apr 27 2023 20:52 utc | 90

Peter AU1 | Apr 27 2023 20:08 utc | 76
------

A very prescient comment. Indeed, when it comes, Ukraine’s collapse, and subsequently NATO's, is likely to be quite sudden. The US' chaotic retreat from Afghanistan is a good recent example, as is Vietnam, and many other historical examples.

China is indeed pre-positioning for that imminent event, almost certainly with Russia's all-in collaboration, and very likely at its behest.

Posted by: Doug Hillman | Apr 27 2023 20:52 utc | 91

Posted by: Surferket | Apr 27 2023 20:00 utc | 73:

Thank you for your discussion. I've read many of your postings since the COVID outbreak and admire your knowledge, moral stand, and abhorrence against western MSM propaganda :-).

On the HK situation, you are right about China taking action against HanJians and western shit stirrers of late. It's a matter of national security, per Deng Xiaoping's caution of not letting HK become the springboard of anti-China platform for the Empire. Deng saw the intention of the West regarding HK way back in the early 80's. He didn't take action then because having the west developing the financial capacity of HK was/is in China's interest. But the Occupy Central Yellow Shirt Movement of 2014 and the Black Shirt Riots of 2019 were antics that have gone too far. It's about time China take action in HK, rooting out saimen-hair-do western judges and Jehova-brainwashed primary/secondary/university teachers. It is indeed a matter of national security now, because the spark of anti-China-lism could potentially spread elsewhere in China and cause deeper damages.

But as far as actually ruling HK administratively, I doubt that Beijing would give a damn. Shenzhen has proven already HK's prosperity can easily be matched and exceeded within a generation. What's the big deal of HK calling you Big Baddy??? Let them twist in the wind!

DieOne, on the other hand, is just a nuisance, has been since China successfully completed the South China Sea islands making undertaking, rendering western carrier threats to China's southern coastal areas moot. DieOne called itself an unsinkable carrier. In reality, it is a un-driftable piece of rock. It has no place to go. Any western arial objects has no place to hide on that rock from Chinese arial defenses/offences. It's practically useless to the west except for "face" damages to China, the damages being merely in their own minds. Note that China is still allowing $100+ Billion trade surplus to perpetuate in DieOne's favor, clear indication that China would let it survive as such and don't want them to panic. China can easily put a stop to that trade imbalance any day, any time! Meanwhile, no harm, no hurry either.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Apr 27 2023 20:53 utc | 92

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Apr 27 2023 19:36 utc | 59

I wonder how much of this motivation behind this Chinese intervention is a desire to reassert their reputation as the No1 partner in the growing anti-American alliance. Before Ukraine, China dominated the news, playing the dual role of regional bogeyman and economic competitor; however, although there was some concern at Russia’s growing capabilities of power-projection, her economic position was seen as a fragile, one-trick pony. The Ukraine conflict though has challenged these perceived roles, and with it the Sino-supremacy, with Russia’s economy now seen to be far more robust and her military capable of demolishing a NATO proxy with sophisticated and combat-effective weapon systems.

I think the Chinese variant of BRICS, definitely likes to see the C before any other letter, the natural leader, and peace talks are a perfect vehicle for generating head-lines world wide, whilst re-establishing their credentials as top-dog in a bilateral world. The Putin, Xi alliance isn’t as fraught or mutually self-serving as the Hitler, Stalin pairing, but it still has the whiff of the Rees cartoon to it.

Posted by: Milites | Apr 27 2023 20:58 utc | 93

Maybe China is simply concerned about hunger and famine in Europe and its implications for trade as well as the humanitarian aspects .... maybe considering opening food banks throughout the region ...

Table of Food Inflation in Europe: March 2023

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/food-inflation?continent=europe

Euro area 17.5% EU 19.17% Russian Federation 2.57%

UK 19.1% Ukraine 26.8% France 15.9% Germany 21.2% Poland 24.0%

Check the table for the rest .....

Posted by: Don Firineach | Apr 27 2023 21:00 utc | 94

Don Bacon

You bring a lot of good stuff to the bar..

Smedly Butler's 12 page essay War is a Racket is a must read for everyone.

so is

FALSEHOOD IN WAR-TIME
CONTA1N1NG AN ASSORTMENT OF LIES CIRCULATED THROUGHOUT THE NATIONS DURING THE GREAT WAR
BY
ARTHUR PONSONBY
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Falsehood_in_War_Time.pdf

Posted by: Paul from Norway | Apr 27 2023 21:03 utc | 95

@ Oriental Voice | Apr 27 2023 19:36 utc | 58 about Taiwan

Thanks for the response with which I agree. From an outsider viewpoint I wonder about the potential for when the Good Cop China steps out of form and does something like the Bad Cop Russia......because a red line was crossed.

I think it is coming and necessary but it would be best if the Bad Cop was able to do the deed alone and not besmirch the Good Cop position of China.

I am 74 and hoping to see more of this civilization war that I have been hoping for going on 50+ years.....here is to our health!

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 27 2023 21:04 utc | 96

Remember the events. Xi refused to talk to Zely until Xi was spanked publicly by US and he finally called. Last time Xi was spanked into his place was by Pelosi. It's as simple as that, ask the offended sausage how pleasing the masters works. You have to do it in public, for everyone to see. Xi recognized Zely as winner and his equal under US control. Xi and Lula pretend to be piss lovers and act in a play for their own people and customers, you put too much weight on their actions. They're only looking for good deals with nazis in Ukr which are there to stay. Imagine how many billions will Xi make restoring Ukr, preparing it for future attack on Russia so they can profit even more?

Posted by: rk | Apr 27 2023 21:08 utc | 97

@psychohistorian, #96:

At this juncture of geopolitics, the Taiwan redline to China is 1) Taiwan formally declares independence; 2) Empire stationing military troop and bases on the rock; 3) Taiwan itself poke China's eyes militarily. Crossing anyone one of these, down comes the hammer. Short of these, China would still maintain a lifeline for their economic existence, and call them "brothers" :-)

I don't think China care to be any kind of cops, as long as global justices is not on the verge of being shredded to smithereens. Let someone else be the cop!

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Apr 27 2023 21:14 utc | 98

We ought to assume Team Biden will never agree and will need to be replaced for any peace pact to be made. The EU/NATO nexus must also be rendered asunder as any agreement will not allow NATO on Union State borders... How long will it take for credible negotiators to be revealed within the West? 2029?

karlof1 | Apr 27 2023 20:34 utc | 88
-------

Thanks for again distilling the essential Lavrov. He will be required-reading in future texts, and your archives will be invaluable.

I think recent leaks, including Hunter's laptop (pending) indictments, the US' destruction of Nord Stream, and the military/CIA intel docs, indicate that there are considerable forces behind US regime change. How long will it take? I think (hope) it will be early 2024, not 2029. Biden's cognitive decline is simply impossible to hide.

Posted by: Doug Hillman | Apr 27 2023 21:17 utc | 99

rk | Apr 27 2023 21:08 utc | 97
-----
Good satire.

Posted by: Doug Hillman | Apr 27 2023 21:19 utc | 100