Nord Stream Attack - 'Officials' Throw More Chaff To Hide The Real Perpetrators
Right at the same moment the New York Times publishes a shoddy 'officials say' story about alleged intelligence about the Nord Stream terror attack the Germany weekly Die Zeit, which has strong U.S. secret services ties, comes up with an equally unbelievable tale of a 'Ukrainian owned' sailing boat playing the major role in the attack:
Nord-Stream-Ermittlungen: Spuren führen in die Ukraine
Ermittler haben das Boot identifiziert, von dem aus die Anschläge auf Nord Stream ausgeführt wurden. Offenbar wurde es von einer Firma gemietet, die Ukrainern gehört.
My translations:
Nord Stream investigation: Traces lead to Ukraine
Investigators have identified the boat from which the attacks on Nord Stream were carried out. Apparently, it was rented by a company owned by Ukrainians.
No, it is not the USS Kearsarge, the U.S. amphibious assault ship which 'trained' 'mine removals' near Bornholm island next to the pipelines just days before they blew up, which the 'investigators' identified.
AZ @AZmilitary1 - 13:52 UTC · Sep 27, 2022
An expeditionary detachment of US Navy ships led by the universal amphibious assault ship USS Kearsarge days ago was in the Baltic Sea
It was 30 km from the site of the alleged sabotage on the Nord Stream-1 gas pipeline and 50 km from the threads of Nord Stream-2 gas pipeline
bigger
The new claim is that some rather small yacht, which would not even be able to carry the necessary equipment to perform such a deed, was the main instrument in this:
Following joint research by [German main public TV news unit] (ARD's capital city studio), the ARD political magazine Kontraste, [German public TV] SWR and DIE ZEIT, it was possible to reconstruct to a large extent in the course of the investigation how and when the explosive attack was prepared. According to this, traces lead in the direction of Ukraine. However, investigators have so far found no evidence of who ordered the destruction.
...
Specifically, according to information from [these news sources], investigators have managed to identify the boat that was presumably used for the secret operation. It is said to be a yacht rented from a company based in Poland, apparently owned by two Ukrainians. The clandestine operation at sea is said to have been carried out by a team of six people, according to the investigation. It is said to have involved five men and one woman. According to the report, the group consisted of a captain, two divers, two diving assistants and a female doctor, who are said to have transported the explosives to the crime scenes and placed them there. The nationality of the perpetrators is apparently unclear. The assassins used professionally forged passports, which are said to have been used, among other things, to rent the boat.According to the investigation, the commando set off from Rostock on September 6, 2022. The equipment for the clandestine operation was previously transported to the port in a van, it is said. In the further course, the investigators succeeded in locating the boat the following day again in Wieck (Darß) and later at the Danish island Christiansø, northeast of Bornholm, according to the research. The yacht was subsequently returned to the owner in uncleaned condition. On the table in the cabin, the investigators were able to detect traces of explosives, according to the research. According to information from [the mentioned news sources], a Western intelligence service is said to have sent a tip to European partner services as early as in the fall, i.e. shortly after the destruction, according to which a Ukrainian commando was responsible for the destruction. Thereafter, there have allegedly been further intelligence indications suggesting that a pro-Ukrainian group could be responsible.
No. You do not dive down to 80+ meter for an industrial size job, involving the placement of hundreds of pounds of explosives in eight individual charges on very sturdy pipelines, from a sparsely manned boat. Such deep dives require special gases, special breathing equipment, special training, a decompression chamber for emergencies and lots of well trained people to maintain all that stuff.
This is just more chaff thrown up to divert the attention from Seymour Hersh's revelations that the U.S. military, under order from the White House, carried out the sabotage act.
Gonzalo Lira @GonzaloLira1968 - 18:54 UTC · Mar 7, 2023Just now, the German news site Zeitung is ALSO blaming the Ukraine for the Nord Stream pipeline bombing!
Coupled with The NY Times piece earlier today, this is clearly a coordinated misinformation campaign.
Was this why Olaf Schultz and Biden met?
Nord-Stream-Ermittlungen: Spuren führen in die Ukraine
Gonzalo Lira @GonzaloLira1968 - 5:21 UTC · Mar 8, 2023Zelensky’s regime can deny its involvement in the Nord Stream pipeline terrorist attack all it wants—but it won’t matter.
Clearly, a very strong faction of the Deep State wants to blame UA so the West can pull out of the Ukraine disaster.
ft.com - Ukraine denies any involvement in Nordstream pipeline explosions
What we are seeing here is a disinformation campaign comparable to the Skripal 'poisoning' affair in Britain. Following that tens of 'officials say' news items were released that were each more illogical and unbelievable than the previous ones. The campaign was designed to flood the information space with so much nonsense that no one would be drawn back to the roots of the story (i.e. a UK turncoat asset getting violently silenced after he attempted to go back to Russia).
I am pretty sure that soon more will be released about the real perpetrators of the Nord Stream attack. This sudden throwing of 'officials say' chaff, a month after the Hersh story, is just an attempt to preemptively divert from it.
Posted by b on March 8, 2023 at 6:20 UTC | Permalink
next page »Thanks for covering the latest Wag The Dog narrative control efforts of dying empire b
I think what you said about the Skripal affair sums the current PR push well as you wrote
"
The campaign was designed to flood the information space with so much nonsense that no one would be drawn back to the roots of the story
"
I am telling folks at this point that the global pot is boiling and what we are seeing are various examples of froth.....
Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 8 2023 6:42 utc | 2
It is also interesting how this is being dealt with in Ukrainian Infospace
Posted by: santomet | Mar 8 2023 6:46 utc | 3
With weeks to conjure up an alternate story, this is what they come up with. The must think the public is monumentally stupid and will just swallow whatever they dish up. Given Covid responses, maybe they are correct.
Posted by: yarpos | Mar 8 2023 6:47 utc | 4
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/24/opinion/afghanistan-ukraine-putin-special-forces.html
usa trained ex afghan special forces now fight for wagner. ouch
Posted by: hankster | Mar 8 2023 6:58 utc | 5
If you want to be further entertained by the US political circus self destructing go read the posting at ZH with the title
"They Lied To Us All": Tucker Exposes January 6 Fraud And Kangaroo-Court Cover-Up
Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 8 2023 6:59 utc | 6
im not sure who they thought would believe that story. the bit about zelensky didnt even know is funnier. plausible denial of terrorism ? seemore will have to respond with something special he was probably not going to divulge before this lame lie was presented.
Posted by: hankster | Mar 8 2023 7:02 utc | 7
IMHO this is not only a diversion from Hersh´s report and him blaming the US.
This could also be a try to take an off-ramp out of the war that is factually lost.
Put the blame on the Ukrainians who stabbed their benefactors in the back and prepare the way out of this large scale (and further unsustainable) support of 404.
"Those pesky Ukros are not thankful so wie should scale back our support for them".
Posted by: Goingo | Mar 8 2023 7:03 utc | 8
Yes, 'tis obvious rubbish.
What was the name and type of the yacht? What was the name of the company through which it was leased? No?
Hersh has announced that further details of the real action are going to be provided. The narrative managers are trying to "get in front" of the news.
Posted by: YesXorNo | Mar 8 2023 7:12 utc | 9
It is now crystal clear what the recent visit of Germany's Olaf Scholtz to Joe Biden's Whitehouse was all about.
Posted by: krl | Mar 8 2023 7:12 utc | 10
Two passports were found (ZDF-German TV). They were Ukrainian passports, but apparently faked, they say.
No joke.
Posted by: mk | Mar 8 2023 7:14 utc | 11
Posted by: mk | Mar 8 2023 7:14 utc | 11
Passports found in mint condition at the blast-sites?
Yeah - 9/11 revisited!
Posted by: Goingo | Mar 8 2023 7:15 utc | 12
@Goingo
no, not at the blast site. They were found on the idling boat...
Posted by: mk | Mar 8 2023 7:24 utc | 13
Asking for assistance with MOA archives. Looking for a tale about two tribes/countries "Importia" and "Exportia", from inside commentary section of particular thread several weeks ago. Would appreciate a lead, or link. Do not remember person's nickname, who post it. Lost a book mark. Thanx a lots
Posted by: Alex Vadim | Mar 8 2023 7:43 utc | 14
Any way of finding out if two of the five men involved answer to the names of Gilligan and Skipper?
Apart from this, it'll be interesting to see how Volodymyr Zelensky tries to squirm his way out of blame or not, as Germany and the US find a way to avoid supplying Leopard and Abrams tanks. We may yet see blame being ping-ponged back and forth between Zelensky's faction and the Nazis in his administration.
Posted by: Refinnejenna | Mar 8 2023 7:47 utc | 15
Why not give our security agencies the benefit of doubt and accept that this vile terrorist attack was performed by Ukrainian terrorist in order to boost the supply of weapons and money to Ukraine?
And think about the consequences?
The Nordstream sabotage is an act of terrorism on the scale of 9/11, against Germany and Europe.
Our answer to 9/11 was the war on terror. We punished not only Bin Laden and his ilk, but everybody who might have had a role in those crimes or benefited from them. Think Irak, Taliban.
And then think about the only possible reaction to Ukrainian terrorists attacking Europe!
The information provided by American and German investigators can only mean a 180° turn in not just Germany's and Europe's, but also NATO's role in the war in Ukraine.
All support for Ukraine must stop immediately, and the Selensky regime brought down before they create even more havoc.
Posted by: Marvin | Mar 8 2023 7:47 utc | 16
A very good friend of mine is an experienced diver, and I'm here to tell you that atmospheric pressure DOUBLES every 10 meters underwater.
That means being down 100 meters is equivalent to 11 bars or 11 times the pressure at the surface. Even my experienced friend has never dived at that depth because it is extremely dangerous and requires a LOT of prep, to say nothing of the decompression risks, etc.
Just touching your finger to the bottom in this area would require a highly equipped team of supremely experienced divers. No f--king way a group of six Ukrainian jokers on a pleasure yacht could be capable of this.
Posted by: Sam (in Tiraspol) | Mar 8 2023 7:48 utc | 17
First NATO_US MSM screams Russia blew up the pipe line. Now it seems they are backing off from that lie. But invent a new one. The whole rational world knows who did this. Biden who stated if Russia invades Ukraine there will be no pipeline. The truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Besides voting, wish I could do something to get the psychopathic neocons bullies out of the White House.
Posted by: stop lying | Mar 8 2023 7:54 utc | 18
What possible reason would Ukraine have for attacking the Nord Stream pipeline? The attack embarrasses Russia, but does it no economic or practical harm since the EU had already rendered it useless. If Ukraine had the capacity to carry out such an attack (which they don't) they would surely use that capacity to conduct some more effective operations in the theatre of the war they are engaged in. It makes no sense whatsoever.
More worryingly, however, it is a crude attempt at deflection by the U.S. which surely makes Ukrainians more suspicious. Why are the Americans so keen to escape responsibility? Can it be that they are laying a basis for eventually abandoning Ukraine to its fate? If I were one of Zhelensky's henchpeople I would be extremely worried.
Which means either that the U.S. doesn't care what people think, or that they are extremely stupid. Either is rather worrying.
Posted by: MFB | Mar 8 2023 7:54 utc | 19
More drivel, what else from the Empire of Lies. Are they trying to sell us ‘Ghost of Bornholm Island’?
Meanwhile in reality
https://www.kp.ru/daily/27473.5/4729512/
Posted by: Lev Davidovich | Mar 8 2023 8:01 utc | 20
So, does this mean that NATO is completely useless despite carrying out "demining" exercises with the very best they have? If so, what is even the point of NATO?
Bad enough, NATO is losing the biggest proxy Army they could ever have mustered.
Posted by: Suresh | Mar 8 2023 8:01 utc | 21
As I said before, Ukraine did it with orders from their top leadership but it was definitely known by the us and very likely given verbal go ahead by us.
As I also said before why would us do things itself if it has someone else to do it. I just don't see us directly doing this type of action against Germany.
Ukrainians had given equipments by uk to do deep sea sabotage and were also trained by them so I don't see why moa doubting they could do it. It's just placing explosives under a couple of buried pipes 80 feet under the ocean. Trained committed personnel can definitely do it. With regards to lack of things like decompression chambers and other high tech stuff and personnel needed to maintain thise things won't matter to people who r out for blood and lost family and comrades to this war.
Ukrainian forces have already proven they fight to the last man even in hopeless cause. They certainly can do this with the bare minimum equipment like special breathing equipments those undersea devices given to them by uk and training.
Again people who certainly will call me an agent of west should realize I m not absolving the us, I m certain us knew of the plan beforehand and let it happen or gave the direct go ahead
Posted by: A.z | Mar 8 2023 8:03 utc | 22
@19 this was done immediately after Germans protested closer of ns1 and ns2. They demanded those streams r opened to get gas from Russia. Ns1 and ns2 still operational posed a threat to Ukraine that German leadershipight be pressurized by its people to try for peace. So Ukraine certainly had motive so did the us ofcourse.
Posted by: A.z | Mar 8 2023 8:07 utc | 23
I wonder, if nobody calls for NATO Art. 5 for this terroristic attack against a NATO country in NATO territory, and a following complete occupation of Ukraine by NATO troopers. WhiteHouse wisely plays down this affair to prevent WW3 outbreak.
Is it really possible to treat this affair in another way but deep black sarcasm?
Posted by: EasternHedgehog | Mar 8 2023 8:11 utc | 24
I was worried it might have been Robert Habeck..................after the revelation that Ukrainian pilots trained in US crashed planes on 9/11........I found it was hard to suspend disbelief
At least Biden has gotten to the bottom of things and CIA has laid their cards on the table.......no wonder the Bundestag was unable to explain the situation - but they are working on exhuming van der Lubbe to see if he might have been involved in further acts of sabotage
Will Norway be able to rest assured Ukrainians will not sever their lucrative supply lines to UK unless they receive advanced jet fighters and submarines ?
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Mar 8 2023 8:24 utc | 25
Scholz is the right man at the right time
The latest spin in the Nordstream-spectacle motivated me to write a comment.
I have been watching our german chancellors for decades now. Scholz' predecessor Schroeder was a guy who rather made deals with Gazprom and in a bold move declined to join the US war on Iraq when Bush requested troops. After him came Merkel for 16 years. Schroeder ran a poster campaign with the slogan "She would have sent troops!" after the US lies about MWDs in Iraq were exposed. I guess he really pissed off the US administration, but he was out of office.
Schroeder layed the foundation for two centuries of germany making huge profits. Cheap russian gas was one of the main ingredients. Merkel banked on that and did not change much. She was all about the money and very sturdy. Held off the US as good as she could. Snowden 2013 fell into her time and kind of unmasked her as a regular US asset just like everything else. These are not our friends, but now everyone could see that. This scandal needed to be swept under the rug quickly and our government demonstrated how well TV&press were already orchestrated in 2013.
After Merkel came Scholz. He was often seen as the weak, not very social guy who would finally stay in Hamburg despite his long career and some ambitions. His win came as a total surprise. Scholz' party SPD was laughing stock at that time, incompetence, corruption, far from reality the labels. Sinking lower and lower in ratings over many years and not really in the ranks of a possible winning party anymore. However they came out with the biggest number and formed the coalition with FDP and Gruene that is in place right now.
When the pipelines were sabotaged and everyone knew what was going on - the US administration could be sure there would be no hostile reaction or going out of line from Scholz. He was grumpy yes, he showed it yes. One could see that he knows exactly what just happened. He did not like what was put on his plate. Played and a little betrayed. But after all it was announced to him personally by Biden that Nordstream will end. And his reaction to that was watched very closely at the time.
After the sabotage the usual disinformation began. So-called investigations behind closed doors yielding nothing. TV&press playing it down and keeping the topic out as much as possible. Our Attorney General quickly pulled the case. In germany that means the investigation shall be controlled and archived there, out of public. The dumbest of the dumb boulevard press even tried to frame Putin in person. Many tried to bring Russia as the probable attacker into the discussion. It did not work as good as the Snowden case, despite much more effort.
Someone came up with the idea to have the narrative changed to "Is our critical infrastucture safe? Do we need more weapons, soldiers, even NATO to protect it?". Quickly followed by an attack on a german railway, which obviously was state terrorism (nothing new in germany). It worked, the topic was now changed.
That was the end of it. Or was it? The Nordstream sabotage keeps making waves. Even in germany. It undermines the public perception of "who are really the bad guys" just enough to be of concern. Scholz' party is on the downslide again. People see him more as a spineless US puppet than before. Did we put him in a corner? What will he do? Scholz needs to be briefed. And Nordstream needs further attention. So Scholz' visits Biden again in unofficial and rather private style. Something that is not really his thing. He will later be impressed and thank his "good friend" publicly for this. Shortly after the stories about the "Ukrainian supported attack group" come out worldwide. Finally a version that might stick. Everyone looking good in it?
Scholz was the one guy in the german government who was just a little on the brakes in the whole war scenario. He clearly sees that the Ukraine takes our things and the US takes our money. That's the briefing Selenski got. Will he continue to show concerns? Maybe he is good now.
Posted by: Ruediger | Mar 8 2023 8:34 utc | 26
[24]
attack against a NATO country in NATO territory
There is no such thing as "NATO territory" - it simply has no legal basis.
The waters of the Baltic are International Waters.
The seabed might be within a Danish EEZ but that is not "sovereign territory"
Art 5 of NATO Charter can only be read in conjunction with Art 51 UN Charter
The only State-owned company in Nordstream was Gazprom - otherwise it was private companies like Shell, Wintershall-BASF, Gasunie....
The five shareholders of the Nord Stream consortium are Gazprom international projects LLC (PJSC Gazprom subsidiary), Wintershall Dea AG (formerly Wintershall Holding GmbH), PEG Infrastruktur AG (E.ON), N.V. Nederlandse Gasunie and ENGIE. Gazprom international projects LLC holds a 51 percent stake in the pipeline project.
https://www.nord-stream.com/about-us/
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Mar 8 2023 8:34 utc | 27
As someone wrote on Twitter a while ago: The U.S. is the Tonya Harding of international trade.
Posted by: Hamburger | Mar 8 2023 8:40 utc | 28
Sam (in Tiraspol) | Mar 8 2023 7:48 utc | 17
You should have got more info from your friend before posting.
First of all, pressure increases with depth but does not double every 10 meters. at 20 meters you experience an additional 2 bar, at 30 meters there are 3 bar and so on. So at 100 meters the pressure would be 11 bar, 10 of those from fluid pressure plus the atmospheric pressure.
Man can dive very deep even without special mixtures and such, what is critical is the time at depth. Free divers have many records below 100 meters but their bottom time is minimal. When you spend time deep down nitrogen gets absorbed into tissue while the bubbles are very small because of the intense pressure, remember the air you breathe underwater is delivered at the same pressure as the water pressure. That is why you really don't feel the incredible water pressure as your lungs have a balancing pressure.
the problem occurs when you ascend too quickly and do not allow the nitrogen to be released...the bubbles get larger as the water pressure decreases and this causes great pain and death. Slow ascents with decompression stops allow very deep dives....the main thing is the longer your bottom time the more time needed for decompression.
Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 8 2023 8:41 utc | 29
Well!
Everyone bought the Saddam weapons of mass destruction bullshit.
And if memory serves me correctly.
One of the authors ,"took his own life" shortly afterwards.
And here's the thing Everyone who consumes msm will buy it without a single question.
None.
No matter how cold or Jobless they become.
Posted by: jpc | Mar 8 2023 8:42 utc | 30
Posted by: Refinnejenna | Mar 8 2023 7:47 utc | 15
only mentioned one woman--Ginger, Mary Ann, or Lovey Howell?
Posted by: pretzelattack | Mar 8 2023 8:44 utc | 31
A.z | Mar 8 2023 8:03 utc | 22
Try tripling the depth you quote as it was meters, not feet. (ie, take foot out of mouth?).
The whole thing is impossible without full military technical, physical backup and individual expertise.
The Uk Daily Telegraph is running this story and have allowed reader comments. The comments suggest that the readership is pretty unconvinced, though the usual Brigade 77 people are in evidence.
This is after the DT went full on claiming the "Russians blew up their own pipeline" and have been doing so for months.
Personally I think it was a tragic accident, someone dropping a captured Russian hypersonic explosive ultra-shovel overboard at just the wrong location. The collateral damage from this act must have been considerable and certainly enough to destroy the pipelines. There is no need for wild tin foil hat conspiracy theories.
Posted by: marcjf | Mar 8 2023 8:54 utc | 33
“by: Sam (in Tiraspol) | Mar 8 2023 7:48 utc | 17”
“A very good friend of mine is an experienced diver, and I'm here to tell you that atmospheric pressure DOUBLES every 10 meters underwater.”
I could look it up, but even without that, I’m perfectly willing to believe that ten meters of water weighs as much as the entire atmosphere over your head at sea level, and thus the pressure at a depth of ten meters would be double the normal pressure. But there’s no way in hell it doubles every ten meters further down you go. The second ten meters of essentially incompressible water would have to weigh twice as much as the first ten meters of water, and the next ten meters of water would have to weigh twice as much as the second ten meters, etc. Physically preposterous.
Posted by: Dalit | Mar 8 2023 9:04 utc | 34
[26]
Your history is a bit off.
GDR had Soviet pipeline gas and oil sustaining its industrial base including the refineries and petrochemical complex at Leuna and at Schwedt.
West Germany cut a deal in 1960s to import Soviet natural gas and oil by pipeline.
1982 Ronald Reagan sanctioned the construction of the Druzhba Pipeline through Ukraine and did everything possible to obstruct it - Germany prevailed and Rolls-Rice supplied the compressors.
German industry had increased energy needs and it was proposed to build a new pipeline - this is the one associated with Schroeder.
Merkel - a closet Green - shut down nuclear power after Fukushima and increased German dependence on gas imports.........
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/6/infographic-how-much-of-europes-energy-gas
Germany supports a $2 Trillion economy on $27 billion of imported Russian gas according to Zoltan Posnar
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Mar 8 2023 9:27 utc | 36
Belgian Flemish newspapers De Morgen and De Standaard copy/paste the NYT story 8/3/23. But at least they omit the "yacht" details, which would indeed be laughable. De Standaard even concludes "The NYT piece seems to be the first, more thorough and cautious coverage of a solid investigation based on several sources."
Posted by: Marvo | Mar 8 2023 9:45 utc | 38
"And in a flash, the frightened cuttlefish vanishes in a cloud of smoke."
So much for our masters of the universe.
"Pay no attention to the little man behind the machine."
-- Wizard of Oz
Already back then, they knew who these guys are.
Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 8 2023 9:53 utc | 39
The telling part is that right after the sabotage, US/Western experts were basically saying that only a major state-actor could pull off something that big, basically implying it should be Russia because not Denmark, the Baltic States or even Poland could do it. It was a bit extreme, but it's funny to contrast with the current narrative that a small group of amateurs could just destroy pipelines. Well, then I'm eagerly awaiting the next stunt from the loonies at Extinction Rebellion, trying to sabotage more oil or gas pipelines - stunt which would end quite badly for them, obviously.
Posted by: Clueless Joe | Mar 8 2023 9:53 utc | 40
Odd times.
That which is too good to be true usually is. :O
Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | Mar 8 2023 9:56 utc | 41
@Paul Greenwood | Mar 8 2023 8:34 utc | 27
Thanks for the info.
Conclusion: everything is between private entities.
No need for governmental involvement.
Business as usual.
You may upread "sarcasm".
Posted by: EasternHedgehog | Mar 8 2023 9:58 utc | 42
So in the minds of whoever is supposed to believe this, Ukraine, or at least Ukrainian non-state actors repaid Germany for sending arms and money with blowing up German pipelines causing economic crisis.
What is the next course of action the German leadership supposed to take with this "revelation"?
Would the German people protest against Ukraine, as an enemy of the German people?
Not that the German people's opinions matter since that WEF shill Baerbock already literally stated she doesn't give damn about German voters.
But how would the Kremlin respond to this "revelation"?
Lots of opportunities to destroy the credibility of the western leadership, not only from the perspective of the global south but also the rational half of the western public as well.
Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | Mar 8 2023 9:59 utc | 43
In many ways it's not worth the effort of debating the gaping holes in the NYT's or Die Zeit's fallacious accounts of nordstream sabotage as they haven't been produced to be debated & they won't be. They solely exist, were made, for creating an out, a backstop for the paid liars plus the committed head in the sand types who desperately cling tp imperial lies in preference to subscribing to a reality which would discomfort them determined as they are to get through this life without rocking the boat by reconsidering the world and their role in it.
This is the spirit which has kept so many adhering to, even spouting, millenia old rationally disproven superstitions, racial supremacy, rabid nationalism such as amerikan exceptionalism or any of the 1000 & 1 other facile & easily disproven beliefs where it is regarded as 'normal' for emotion and 'faith' to trump reason and logic.
Debate is energy sapping & pointless, still it is incumbent upon all of us to simply hang in there until reality forces those odd things, aka facts, into the light.
Its only gonna be a matter of months until credulous derps are forced to face the nordstream reality, amerikan exceptionalism ain't gonna be rejected by many until conflict makes the exceptionalists' position untenable via war. The superstitions are even worse since once the light is turned off and their consciousness is no longer extant, it is impossible for mugs to have to confront their gullible stupidity.
Posted by: Debsisdead | Mar 8 2023 10:09 utc | 44
Debsisdead | Mar 8 2023 10:09 utc | 44
Debate is energy sapping & pointless, still it is incumbent upon all of us to simply hang in there until reality forces those odd things, aka facts, into the light.
Yes, sadly, I agree with you. I have sent out three separate alternatives to the various mainstream narratives and invited my friends to discuss. The result: near total silence.
Only my builder (a Bulgarian) will maintain a meaningful conversation with me about what is happening in Ukraine.
Posted by: echelon | Mar 8 2023 10:38 utc | 45
I think simple questions need to always be asked, like:
Is it in the interest of the German people, and world citizens, to know the truth, or are lies their best interest?
I don’t know what the German and world citizens would reply, but will make an educated guess that they would say - the truth is in our interest.
In reality, including now, NATO&All governments in the form of “officials”, unnamed and named, leading media, assorted public figures (opinion makers), “experts” etc, are disseminating lies as truth to their citizens. They are waging non-stop psychological warfare against their own and the global public. The world population, according to some research, has never been so depressed. Surprise, surprise.
Politics and policies, public life based on lies is a vicious circle with only one outcome - ruin.
Lies are quick sand. The Trans-Atlantic partnership states, their societies, their citizens are being swallowed in it.
As Shakespeare says in one of his plays: What? Art thou mad? Is not the truth the truth?
Posted by: JB | Mar 8 2023 10:45 utc | 46
@Marvin | Mar 8 2023 7:47 utc | 16
The Nordstream sabotage is an act of terrorism on the scale of 9/11, against Germany and Europe.Agreed
Our answer to 9/11 was the war on terror. We punished not only Bin Laden and his ilk, but everybody who might have had a role in those crimes or benefited from them. Think Irak, Taliban.You got it totally backwards. The purpose of 9/11 was to create a false casus belli to start a war OF terror, which has only increased until what we see today. None of the people who had a role or benefited in 911 were ever punished, but everybody else. I have spent countless ours studying this, my background is civil engineering and structural analysis. These people (911: Kagan, Ukraine: Nuland, and more) are the same.
All support for Ukraine must stop immediately, and the Selensky regime brought down before they create even more havoc.Sure, but that only happens when the perpetrators of 911 and the Ukraine war are stopped (they are the same).
Posted by: Norwegian | Mar 8 2023 10:58 utc | 48
Posted by: Ruediger | Mar 8 2023 8:34 utc | 26
"Snowden 2013 fell into her time and kind of unmasked her as a regular US asset just like everything else. These are not our friends, but now everyone could see that. This scandal needed to be swept under the rug quickly and our government demonstrated how well TV&press were already orchestrated in 2013."
"People see him more as a spineless US puppet than before."
Just a couple of random comments because I agree overall.
I think in retrospect that the first warning signs of a press brought dangerously into line showed even earlier during the financial/euro crisis since 2008, especially regarding the Greek episode. Back then, I was amazed how most of the press simply refused to paint a broader and for anyone who cared pretty obvious picture - that financial "help" for Greece flowed back to German and French banks immediately, for instance, allowing them to avoid bankruptcy without risking a public scandal that would surely have ensued if another official bailout package had been considered.
Regarding Scholz being seen as a US puppet by the electorate... I don't think that's true. His ratings are relatively low because he comes across as too hesitant and detached in a time where careful consideration of topics is generally not appreciated. He lacks moral conviction, one might say, and is being hounded by numerous politicians even in his own party, let alone the press. Since the utterly idiotic and embarassing Baerbock is still relatively popular, as well as the new Minister of Defense, Pistorius, it's hard to see why the people would accuse Scholz of being a puppet and not all the others.
Regarding Nord Stream, I continue to be amazed at how indifferent and even apathetic most people are given that the attack pretty much guaranteed that the lives of each and every one in Germany will become much more difficult sooner rather than later. It's being discussed - if it's discussed at all - as if there had been some minor sabotage in a refinery or something.
That's also why die ZEIT can publish such a half-assed theory about obscure Ukrainian groups going on a sailing trip. Nobody seems to care.
Posted by: Tlaloc | Mar 8 2023 11:01 utc | 49
Re: Sam Post 34
The pressure under water increases by approximately 1 atmosphere (ATM) for every 10 meters of depth. One atmosphere of pressure is the pressure at sea level, which is equivalent to about 101.325 kilopascals (kPa) or 14.7 pounds per square inch (psi).
Therefore, at a depth of 80 meters, the pressure under water would be approximately 8 times greater than the pressure at sea level. This means that the pressure at a depth of 80 meters would be approximately 809.2 kPa or 117.5 psi.
One does not necessarily need a decompression chamber but the ascent would take a long time and work on the sea bed could only be done for a very few minutes.
The scope of the required work would make completion of the mission impractical, I think, without specialised equipment.
So, yeah, this is not likely to have been done in the manner the recent story alleges.
Posted by: dustybin | Mar 8 2023 11:06 utc | 50
As Babel-17 said (Mar 8 2023 7:35 utc | 175): Getting or encouraging amateurs to go in and lay down one bomb, after already having had the military put in place all the needed explosives, would make a lot of sense.
Yes. It is implausible that the script did not include one or more red herrings.
Posted by: Leuk | Mar 8 2023 11:13 utc | 51
Leuk | Mar 8 2023 11:13 utc | 51
"Yes. It is implausible that the script did not include one or more red herrings."
I knew it, communist fish did it.
Yes. It is implausible that the script did not include one or more red herrings.
Posted by: Leuk | Mar 8 2023 11:13 utc | 51
You can add red herrings as needed too. Confusion can hide things just like smoke. Skripal incident for example.
A strategy related to the Gish Gallop. Just keep piling on the slop.
Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 8 2023 11:40 utc | 53
@ Sam #17
Pressure at depth does not double in that way. The pressure does roughly double only at -33 feet, another -33 (66 feet down) P = about 44 psi, P adds, not multiplies.
see
https://www.social-diving.com/water-pressure-calculator/
Of course in all other respects I agree.
Best!
Posted by: Walter | Mar 8 2023 11:46 utc | 55
The fact that both Germany and US point to Ukraine as the bomber is by itself the evidence needed to prove that it was the US in collaboration with EU allies who carried out the NS terrorist act. Just imagine instead if Ukrainians did stage a terrorist bombing attack inside one of Germany's major cities such as Berlin. Wouldn't it be very bad for the Ukrainians hoping to receive support from NATO and especially Germany to think of them as friends rather than a terrorist group similar to Al Qaeda? Therefore, even the stupidest Ukrainians wouldn't benefit from such useless provocation which points directly at them as the main culprit. It would further weaken their bargaining position versus Russia, for any future negotiations. Obviously, this coordinated piece of fake news is to deflect attentions away from the Hersh's report.
Posted by: maskazer | Mar 8 2023 12:10 utc | 56
Bar flys are missing the real point of this latest "scoop" - which is that it's a great screenplay for this summer's Hollywood lineup. Obviously a Brad Pitt type for the captain but who will be Ginger/Maryann? Will Brad and Angelina get back together? And for comic relief... a talented comic - guess who!
Posted by: MikeO | Mar 8 2023 12:28 utc | 57
Not mentioned in today's analysis is clean circular cut clearly visible in the underwater videos of the damaged pipe.
This implies that the entire soil layer had to be removed, as well as the outer concrete protection before placing the explosive charge around the metal pipe.
Most of that would be better achieved with a submersible device with robotic arms, rather than divers with a limited working time.
As well, as Hersh pointed out, the crew would have to practice somewhere before the live install.
Posted by: Sanctions R US | Mar 8 2023 12:41 utc | 58
100 feet is the limit of recreational diving. No rookies are trained for deeper than 100 feet.
How long can you dive at 100ft?
When divers advance beyond 100 feet, no-decompression time falls significantly. The PADI recreational dive planner allows for a bottom time of 20 minutes at 100 feet or 10 minutes at 130 feet.
I'd say a small specialized submarine would have been utilized. It would have onboard decompression chambers.
Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Mar 8 2023 12:48 utc | 59
Now the government of Post Ukraine also has the compensation for NS I+II in their account books (this government surely will be Pro Russia). At least 50% of NSI+II belonged to the West. I would guess around 70%. This is new new idea.
Until the last day of war money will go to Ukraine and from the first day of peace the New Government will have to pay bills bills bills.
Posted by: theo | Mar 8 2023 12:48 utc | 60
LoL the most incredible and audacious sabotage attack in history and the Rambo forgets to destroy the evidence.
This Ukranian Rambo makes the Ghost of Kiev look like a street bum.
LoL
Posted by: Comandante | Mar 8 2023 12:56 utc | 61
a good friend of mine is x special forces diver with the israeli navy and was teacher with navy seals and sbs he says he trained many children to do these dives as free dives just a matter of training so it looks like it was maybe rogue russian or maybe polish elements estonia or latvia. he said it is doable even now for someone trained in mid 60s certainly doable with 2 or 3 months traing off the greek island.
this was nothing to do with israel or london maybe crazy norway
Posted by: david kleinfelt | Mar 8 2023 12:58 utc | 62
A pipe of norstream 1 was not cut. However, all thé 4 pipes were mined. That's mean that thé explosive thing didn't work on this pipe. Where is thé explosive device that' didn't explode on
nordstream1 ? Who Taked it? Sweedish? Us?
Posted by: Koui | Mar 8 2023 13:00 utc | 63
Zelensky is "their guy";
the allies want to get him to Miami or Israel when they abandon the Ukraine;
therefore he knew nothing about this industrial sabotage.
.
Posted by: a lurking reader | Mar 8 2023 13:12 utc | 64
usa trained ex afghan special forces now fight for wagner. ouch
Posted by: hankster | Mar 8 2023 6:58 utc | 5
Does not surprise me; between being suddenly dropped by USA, not exactly welcomed by the Taliban in their own country, plus the fact some of them are devoutly religious-working for another side that has a “just” cause. They certainly aren’t going to work for the West again, are they?
Posted by: drsmith | Mar 8 2023 13:18 utc | 65
Posted by: A.z | Mar 8 2023 8:03 utc | 22
'Ukraine did this'
Highly unlikely. The author should read up on US Navy underwater spec ops and spy missions to appreciate how much effort and training go into operations of this kind. Just read up on Operation Ivy Bells for starters.
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Mar 8 2023 13:25 utc | 66
Norwegian | Mar 8 2023 10:58 utc | 48
Whilst agreeing with your 9/11 War on Terror point, arguably as important was the, ready to roll, Patriot Act that established the Department of Homeland Security, the significance of which has only become truly clear over the past few years. The control of the indigenous population being as important to the US's Rulers as control of the rest of the World.
Back on topic I spotted this on another site, if real I would say that the Man has had a quiet word. It looks to be totally on the nail.
"In reality, the world hasn’t met yet the real, Russian army. Those that are extremely well equipped and that haven’t joined the fight yet. Whom are ideally prepared with the latest tech and whom are just waiting for their go. Then the whole world will tremble" - Prigozhin
Posted by: JohninMK | Mar 8 2023 13:29 utc | 67
A pipe of norstream 1 was not cut.
Posted by: Koui | Mar 8 2023 13:00 utc | 62
It was one of the pipelines of Nordstream 2 not 1 that survived.
Posted by: JohninMK | Mar 8 2023 13:33 utc | 68
A pipe of norstream 1 was not cut. However, all thé 4 pipes were mined. That's mean that thé explosive thing didn't work on this pipe. Where is thé explosive device that' didn't explode on
nordstream1 ? Who Taked it? Sweedish? Us?
Posted by: Koui | Mar 8 2023 13:00 utc | 62
Possibly they got confused when planting the charges. I seem to remember that one of the pipes got blown up in two places.
In that case there may not be any unexploded devices.
Posted by: Martina | Mar 8 2023 13:33 utc | 69
The US in their haste forgot that Lizz Truss minutes after the pipeline explosions and before anyone in public knew about the sabotage sent a text message to Blinken saying "Its done"
So either LIzz Truss was in league with the saboteurs OR she had baked a cake that needed American tasting
People who lie consistently forget about the lies they lied only yesterday
Posted by: DaVinci | Mar 8 2023 13:35 utc | 70
It seems the battle for Avdiivka is beginning in earnest. This may be one of the most important ones. If Avdiivka falls, the Donbass may be freed from terror. And this terror is designed, sculpted, financed by NATO. One could hope there will be a Last Judgement and NATO criminals get eons of hell for every drop of blood the Donbass civilians and Russian soldiers have shed.
Posted by: Anthony | Mar 8 2023 13:41 utc | 71
It's obvious, innit. The pipelines were blown up by a Lone Crazed Frogman.
Posted by: Bernard Davis | Mar 8 2023 13:44 utc | 72
only mentioned one woman--Ginger, Mary Ann, or Lovey Howell?
Posted by: pretzelattack | Mar 8 2023 8:44 utc | 31
I think we can all conclude it was Mary Ann; Ginger is too unreliable and would switch sides on a heartbeat, and Mrs Thursten Howell III would never allow anyone to think she could be seen on such a small but never mind the fact manual labor is implied - the horrors!
Those investigators involved need to comb that “yacht” for crumbs and other evidence of coconut cream pie…
Posted by: drsmith | Mar 8 2023 13:44 utc | 73
"a good friend of mine is x special forces diver with the israeli navy and was teacher with navy seals and sbs he says he trained many children to do these dives as free dives just a matter of training so it looks like it was maybe rogue russian or maybe polish elements estonia or latvia. he said it is doable even now for someone trained in mid 60s certainly doable with 2 or 3 months traing off the greek island.
this was nothing to do with israel or london maybe crazy norway
Posted by: david kleinfelt | Mar 8 2023 12:58 utc | 61"
LoL
"A dive is doable"
Sure. A recreational dive. Now do a dive including transporting a whole $h1tload of explosives. Somehow submerging them. Placing them exactly in the right spots. Diving back and escaping. And somehow detonating them remotely.
Oh and dont forget to explain how a yatch filled with explosives can parade around the most monitored piece of sea in the planet. LoL
Posted by: Comandante | Mar 8 2023 13:51 utc | 74
Holy $h1t!
I just remembered I played a video game long ago about a secret agent that dives undersea wirhbexplosive to sabotage a Russian oil rig.
The games name is Codename Iceman.
Its exactly as the US says it happened:
The world is crazy when governments are using video game scripts to explain things.
LoL
Posted by: Comandante | Mar 8 2023 13:54 utc | 75
Well, what a surprise (not), ... I bet we'll soon learn from our trusted media (not) that they not only found 'traces of explosives' on a kitchen table, but those explosives were 'Russian made' and that also some Zelenski-hating Ukrainian (opposition) passports were discovered at the bottom of the ocean next to the damaged pipelines. And, no doubt, some Chinese 'box cutters' with Ukrainian DNA on them wrapped in Trump 'MAGA' paper. And, no doubt, some old soiled Putin photos in the toilet. Btw, did anyone just happen to take out some prescient insurance policies for deep water asbestos risk? The NARRATIVE must go on, and on, and on, .... Do us all a favour, Moscow; win this bloody thing and bury this criminal pestilence in the "Fair World Order" history books.
Posted by: imo | Mar 8 2023 14:00 utc | 76
Looks like some AI generated crap.
So, in all seriousness, what's the point - what difference does it make who did it and how and when and why?
It is good that they investigate and if they come up with plausible evidence - beyond the obvious motive and opportunity - they should publish it. But really, those that need to know and want to know already know the most likely scenario. They may pretend they dont. It is good to keep it in public consciousness, I suppose. Seems a bit of a red-herring or rabbit hole however.
Posted by: jared | Mar 8 2023 14:02 utc | 77
My secret source tells me it was the Ukrainian Self-defense Activists. Case closed.
Posted by: Zet | Mar 8 2023 14:07 utc | 78
I’m glad at least a few bar flies are beginning to wake up to the fact that this attack could not have been done by divers.
If you dive to 90 meters and spend 30 minutes down there you would have to spend 3 hours decompressing on your way up. (US navy manual.)
And you should avoid repetitive dives deeper than 30 meters. (Padi)
If you want to clear out a pipe and then mine it you use machines, not divers. Subs, robots, drones, torpedoes… take your pic, just not humans with fins on.
That means both Hersh and the NYT are wrong: norwegians didn’t do it and neither did yathing ukranians.
Who dunnit? Well there’s one country that A said they would do it B has the capacity to do do it and C was present at the scene of the crime. Let’s assume they did it, shall we?
Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Mar 8 2023 14:13 utc | 79
@Marvin
"The Nordstream sabotage is an act of terrorism on the scale of 9/11, against Germany and Europe."
Well, at September 11th 2001 more than 3,000 innocent people died, some more got seriously wounded and traumatized, so...
Posted by: Apollyon | Mar 8 2023 14:18 utc | 80
To me this is a just another reminder of the truth of the old maxim "It's dangerous to be America's enemy, but worse still to be its friend".
Just consider: First, Uncle Sam sabotages its "ally's" crucial infrastructure; Second, it blames its "ally" Ukraine for the deed.
I'm not sure that the word "impunity" does justice to this kind of behavior.
Posted by: expat | Mar 8 2023 14:19 utc | 81
The pressure under water increases by approximately 1 atmosphere (ATM) for every 10 meters of depth.
@ dustybin | Mar 8 2023 11:06 utc | 50
That's my favorite planetary factoid, because it helps to sympathize with the atmosphere we inhabit: about the mass of a 10-meter deep-end -- all the way up! Easy to remember, too.
Posted by: Aleph_Null | Mar 8 2023 14:34 utc | 82
usa trained ex afghan special forces now fight for wagner. ouch
Posted by: hankster | Mar 8 2023 6:58 utc | 5
---
Nothing Wagner can be proud of. These people are complete scum.
My personal bet was that after asylum in the US, these 'special experts specialists' would build something like the clown car version of Los Zetas.
Posted by: Nobody | Mar 8 2023 14:35 utc | 83
I'm not sure that the word "impunity" does justice to this kind of behavior.
Posted by: expat | Mar 8 2023 14:19 utc | 81
Infantile, predatory, criminal, anti-social, and "what you can expect from the rich and powerful". Aristocratic.
Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 8 2023 14:37 utc | 84
Pressure with depth in water.
@ Walter # 55
That table presented strikes me as needlessly confusing and unnecessary. Going by the situation,
the increased pressure when going down in water will be a linear function of how far down. Forget
"doubles" because that just confuses people. We use here the metric unit of meter because it is convenient, and bar which is a unit of pressure commonly set at one atmosphere of pressure at sea level equal to one bar.
As diving is a practical activity, I would imagine divers might well choose to measure pressure as either the increased pressure as they go down in the water, or they could measure the absolute pressure, in which case they would have to add one bar to the measure to include the pressure of the air pushing down on the water.
As you get (approximately) one increase in bar pressure for every 10 meters down, the increased pressure from the surface will equal:
distance-down-in-meters / 10 meters = number-of-bar of pressure
If the gross pressure is desired, not the net increase with depth, add one bar to the above equation.
Posted by: Jmaas | Mar 8 2023 14:44 utc | 85
URGENT: 2 of the counterfeited passports were discovered originally issued to Vovan and Lexus but had been semi-professionally whited out.
Posted by: Elmagnostic | Mar 8 2023 14:45 utc | 86
The world is crazy when governments are using video game scripts to explain things.
LoL
Posted by: Comandante | Mar 8 2023 13:54 utc | 75
Hey, it's what they know.
Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 8 2023 14:46 utc | 87
Comandante no. 75
And perhaps using yachts like the "tardus" in dr. Who.
Looks normal from the outside but the size of a battle ship when you get in. LOL
"The new claim is that some rather small yacht, which would not even be able to carry the necessary equipment to perform such a deed, was the main instrument in this:"
Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Mar 8 2023 14:47 utc | 88
Posted by: Mooshi | Mar 8 2023 6:28 utc | 1
This isn't Hersh's first rodeo. He's an experienced investigator and presumably has many sources inside the US govt. I would not rule out that he is playing a game with the Biden administration, and now that Pudding-for-cerebellum took the bait, he'll catch him in a trap with new information.
I look forward to next week.
Posted by: Chris | Mar 8 2023 14:54 utc | 89
Self-awareness check:
No matter how nonsensical the story about the Ukrainian A-team doing the deed, it worked here in the bar. We're talking about it vs. Bakhmut/UFA collapsing.
Posted by: Chris | Mar 8 2023 14:56 utc | 90
Pressure (in bar) = (N-meters / 10) + 1
or
Pressure (in bar) = (N-feet / 33) + 1
90-meters / 10 + 1 = 10 bar
300-feet / 33 + 1 = 10.09 bar
Approximately.
If you have visited the bottom of a 10 meter deep pool, 2 bar, you get the idea of what 90-meters is like.
I'm with the people who think this was not done by people, and they are still blowing smoke about it. I gotta include Hersh in that.
Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 8 2023 14:57 utc | 91
@DaVinci
The US in their haste forgot that Lizz Truss minutes after the pipeline explosions and before anyone in public knew about the sabotage sent a text message to Blinken saying "Its done"
Well, that's what the Russians said. But there is no evidence for this claim. We should also remain skeptical about the statements made by the Russian government. But it could be an indication that the Russians have intelligence of British involvement. The Hersh story also said very little about the British.
Posted by: Apollyon | Mar 8 2023 14:59 utc | 92
USA proves Ukraine divers did the job
https://t.me/StopHating_Russia/7043
Dont spit your drink...
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 8 2023 15:08 utc | 93
We can assume that when the US complains about international misbehavior, it’s merely a cover for what the US itself is doing.
. . .from State
Disarming Disinformation: Our Shared Responsibility
Disinformation is one of the Kremlin’s most important and far-reaching weapons. Russia has operationalized the concept of perpetual adversarial competition in the information environment by encouraging the development of a disinformation and propaganda ecosystem. This ecosystem creates and spreads false narratives to strategically advance the Kremlin’s policy goals. There is no subject off-limits to this firehose of falsehoods. Everything from human rights and environmental policy to assassinations and civilian-killing bombing campaigns are fair targets in Russia’s malign playbook. . .here
Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 8 2023 15:10 utc | 94
Posted by: Apollyon | Mar 8 2023 14:59 utc | 92
Russian gov has not claimed this. Are you maybe thinking of Kim Dotcom, my friend?
Posted by: irish al | Mar 8 2023 15:11 utc | 95
Various comments
Yes, they think the public is stupid.
Yes, the writers of this script are stupid. No one gets on the inside of the propaganda machinery unless they are massively vetted and massively stupid. Good English or good logic or simple common sense is gone. Read Orwell on Newspeak. The object is to make it impossible to utter thoughtcrime.
Posted by: oldhippie | Mar 8 2023 15:17 utc | 96
Posted by: Don Bacon | Mar 8 2023 15:10 utc | 94
It is remarkable just how much projection comes from the west - the infantilisation of our society (massively including the political classes) runs deep.
Posted by: irish al | Mar 8 2023 15:18 utc | 97
Bemildred #91
I agree. Certainly some sophisticated kit was used and maybe some divers just below the surface carried guidance gear to set up a precise localised GPS equivalent to assist a drone. Hersh could be a diversion to save UK from a dire shit sandwich. Perhaps the explosives were placed by the vessel in Hersh report and the Navy Seal is jut diverting from the vessels capability. Smoke, lots of smoke.
Time will tell.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 8 2023 15:20 utc | 98
No. You do not dive down to 80+ meter for an industrial size job, involving the placement of hundreds of pounds of explosives in eight individual charges on very sturdy pipelines, from a sparsely manned boat. Such deep dives require special gases, special breathing equipment, special training, a decompression chamber for emergencies and lots of well trained people to maintain all that stuff.
Now here is the moment to substantiate any claim of "no" with some details, expert statements and various online evidence. No need for anonymous sources or arguing from authority.
In what way is a 80-100 meter hypoxic trimix dive difficult from a "sparsely manned boat"? How much explosive was placed, according to whom? How much C4 or other PE charges would be required? Shaped or not? How many trips did they take or was it done all in one truip? Why would it need some emergency chamber for such relatively shallow depth? Who has said that?
Just saying "no" is too simplistic. I can think of a dozen of ways how to do address the objections listed. Plus there's the additional possibility that Hersh only heard part of the rumor mill through his source. And that the execution was done in yet another way or variant than his source reported. Leaving some Ukrainian people in the mix as they would have a more legal umbrella inside Ukraine (Russia being declared a terrorist state and all).
Posted by: John Dowser | Mar 8 2023 15:22 utc | 99
Posted by: John Dowser | Mar 8 2023 15:22 utc | 99
since the authorities are not revealing details of the investigation how do you propose b accomplish that? i've got an idea, why don't you find some online documentation of how it was carried out, how it could have been carried out, and get back to us.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Mar 8 2023 15:25 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
Hersh laughed when told of the latest attempt by the US to spin his account and said he would release more next week.
Posted by: Mooshi | Mar 8 2023 6:28 utc | 1