Ukraine – Effective Mortar Range And A Map

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March 16, 2023

A gallery on the current homepage of the New York Times includes this picture:

bigger

The picture's caption says:

Casiv Yar The 71st Separate Hunting Brigade of the Air Assault Forces firing a mortar at a Russian target.

Tyler Hicks / The New York Times

Here is bigger version of the picture, slightly lightened, for more details.

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That is a puny U.S. made M224 60 mm Lightweight Company Mortar System (LWCMS). It has an effective firing range of 70 to 3,490 meter.

This is the current map, based on 'western' sources, of the front line around Chasiv Yar.

Source: LiveUAMap – bigger

The distances shown on the map between Chasiv Yar and the front line are 5.3 and 5.9 kilometer, i.e. bigger than the maximum effective range of that mortar.

For whatever reason something is wrong. It could be the caption of the picture or it could be the lines on the map.

Nothing serious – just wanted to mark this as part of MoA's continuous media education campaign. Not everything is what it seems to be.

Posted by b on March 16, 2023 at 09:17 UTC | Permalink

Comments

@Monos | Mar 16 2023 17:15 utc | 76
Reporters start out as humans, and humans can also be composted once they stop moving*, even when they are reporters.
*It is only politicians and libertarians whose brains compost long before they stop moving.

Posted by: Hermit | Mar 16 2023 19:58 utc | 101

@ muttman | Mar 16 2023 19:48 utc | 99
Anti-tank rifles have been in use since the 2014 Maidan coup. 😉

Posted by: Outraged | Mar 16 2023 20:03 utc | 102

Posted by: Katharina | Mar 16 2023 9:45 utc | 4
Sounds like they are taking a page from the Red Army’s history books. I had read something about scorched earth tactics used by the Soviets and how they would do their best to make sure nothing of value fell into German hands.

Posted by: LGB! | Mar 16 2023 20:11 utc | 103

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Mar 16 2023 19:09 utc | 91
I blow my nose at you, so-called President Putin, you and all your silly Russian k-nnnnniggets.
Dang, some things are so obvious they just go right over your head (I mean me/you, not you/you). One of my favorite movies that I’ve watched many times over the years and always wondered what a Knigget was. The lightbulb just went off when I saw it in print. Anyway, now back to more important issues…

Posted by: Phil R | Mar 16 2023 20:13 utc | 104

@Petri Krohn | Mar 16 2023 17:07 utc | 72
Impressive work!

Posted by: Hermit | Mar 16 2023 20:15 utc | 105

Posted by: Hermit | Mar 16 2023 20:15 utc | 106

@Petri Krohn | Mar 16 2023 17:07 utc | 72
Impressive work!

AMEN!

Posted by: MajorMike | Mar 16 2023 20:20 utc | 106

Military summary today. Avdeevka looking gradually worse for UAF, but despite that it may still take months till it changes ownership. The Russians may be able to take the 260m hills north of Avdeevka which would enable them to control a lot of area around it. Avdeevka may turn out to be another Bakhmut. So basically either UAF give it up or they will have two towns sucking all new forces.
In Zaliznychne (East of Zaporizhe) UAF tries to shorten distance between UAF and Russian lines in the grey zone area in anticipation of the “greatest offensive”, but they took 4 tank losses need today. In Kherson Ukraine is still bleeding artillery and vehicles.

Posted by: unimperator | Mar 16 2023 20:28 utc | 107

That little 60mm mortar is usually attached to the platoon weapons det so each platoon has one….and unlike the 81 mm mortar in a mortar platoon attached to a support company of a battalion..there is no charges to attach to fins..it’s point and shoot..each mortar bomb comes in its own package tube and range is set by elevation…hand held or sustained fire kit… bipod…a good crew can put ten or twelve projectiles in the air before the first hits…the lethal range is about twenty meters….not much less than a 105mm howitzer if put into context. Every infantry man learns how to fire this tube in infantry trade training as opposed to specialized mortar courses on 81 or 120 mm systems….all in all the lethality of this little tube is surprising

Posted by: Joe | Mar 16 2023 20:34 utc | 108

Propeller manufacturers recommend reducing propeller pitch or rpm in a rain storm to minimize erosion. The propeller on that drone impacting the dumped fuel experiences far, far more stress than it was designed for. Once it was bent or broken, continued operation of the unbalanced propeller would quickly rip it apart.
While I have speculated that the drone might have been damaged by a collision with a 30mm cannon projectile, the dumped fuel was more than sufficient to destroy the propeller. I suspect that the turbine was also damaged.

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Mar 16 2023 20:43 utc | 109

For whatever reason something is wrong. It could be the caption of the picture or it could be the lines on the map.

Well, the caption is certainly inaccurate. Those are smoke rounds in the case (60 mm Mortar WP). You don’t really fire those “at” the enemy.

Posted by: The Owl | Mar 16 2023 20:56 utc | 110

Nuland’s ISW claims that Wagner is only capturing so much land around Bakhmut because they’re so weak. Weird cope but okay.
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1636267033657524225
Animated map of AFU getting shoved around by Wagner and RAF around Bakmut.
https://twitter.com/Itookredpill1/status/1636342971292438529

Posted by: catdog | Mar 16 2023 21:19 utc | 111

Lots of uninformed folks here regarding the 60s and 81s. Both use up to 4 charges, both can be carried long distances by a gun crew. Before earning the 0341 MOS a 4 man crew must complete a 20km hump with the 81 system, each person carries a component. Not ideal and straight up sucks but people saying it can’t be done have no clue what they are talking about.

Posted by: J | Mar 16 2023 21:21 utc | 112

not sure about the whole RF wants the tech, wouldnt satellites provide much better capabilities, the reapers are 20 yr old anyway. but yes RF has ships on site to recover. thats sketchy as it gives a juicy target for some anti ship missile from NATO umm ukronazis. Even the usa released video seemed questionable , there was 19 passes as such stated it shows 2 and vid cuts out when hit so no i never saw the bent prop except for a few stills. who knows but empire of lies cant even lie well anymore

Posted by: hankster | Mar 16 2023 21:41 utc | 113

Here’s another map:
https://twitter.com/oopartpt/status/1636391690545274884/photo/1
The US is currently occupying a larger portion of Syria than Russia is of Ukraine.

Posted by: Irish | Mar 16 2023 21:49 utc | 114

The US is currently occupying a larger portion of Syria than Russia is of Ukraine.
Posted by: Irish | Mar 16 2023 21:49 utc | 115
—————————————–
Apples and oranges.

Posted by: Ed | Mar 16 2023 22:13 utc | 115

The USA must take Russia down or it loses its world wide hegemony and valued status of the USD as the world’s reserve currency.
Posted by: young | Mar 16 2023 16:49 utc | 68
Is that really necessary? The world-wide hegemony, as intoxicating as it was, is not that old, only thirty-odd years. There is life after world-wide hegemony. Going back to two separate camps will still provide enough vassals to lord over. It only needs a few sober heads to realize that, which may be the biggest problem of all. Where to find them.

Posted by: Pagan | Mar 16 2023 22:22 utc | 116

Pagan – I have said it before and will say it again. Multipolar world: Europe, Middle East, and Africa for Russia. Asia for the Chinese. North and South American for the US. Everyone keeps their military in their own part of the world. No more big wars.

Posted by: LGB! | Mar 16 2023 22:26 utc | 117

hankster @ 114

not sure about the whole RF wants the tech, wouldnt satellites provide much better capabilities.

It’s not just about photos, those big drones have a whole spectrum of sophisticated electronic surveillance and data collection.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Mar 16 2023 22:36 utc | 118

Might be a dumb question to ask but how does an airplane flying at 400 or 500 mph hit the propeller and not the tailfins of drone… a quick glance at a picture by me and it looks like the tailfin is higher…

Posted by: RiNS | Mar 16 2023 23:08 utc | 119

Don’t sneeze at the 60mm mortar. It is a deadly weapon when used within its intended envelope.

Posted by: Bill*B | Mar 16 2023 23:10 utc | 120

The Russian jet would, it appears, have to literally thread a needle to hit the blade. Quite the piece of airmanship if I do say..

Posted by: RiNS | Mar 16 2023 23:10 utc | 121

@Intelligent Dasein | Mar 16 2023 12:18 utc | 38
The Reaper propellor is metal and reversible variable pitch. The wind load on the bent blade damaged the hub and caused it damage blade to rotate into reverse, and the opposite blade into a feathered or near feathered condition. This can be seen if you evaluate the footage frame by frame.

Posted by: Hermit | Mar 16 2023 23:16 utc | 122

Airplanes and drones continue moving at speed due to thrust to overcome drag. Dumped fuel has no thrust and therefore slows down quickly. The impact to a drone from dumped fuel would be significant. Throw a spinning propeller blade into the mix hitting the slug of fuel (which probably also knocked sensors offline) and no contact needed by the Su-27. Good flying by the Su-27 pilot to get the dumped fuel to hit the drone, not as easy as it seems.

Posted by: mtw | Mar 16 2023 23:51 utc | 123

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 16 2023 16:34 utc | 67
” I find it very odd and incompatible with pictures of the drone type that is has a rear facing camera. ”
The camera on the Reaper is a “sky ball” type, capable of 360deg continuous rotation. They were probably looking aft because their control station is being fed AWACS type situational data and were alerted to the intercept.

Posted by: promptcritical | Mar 17 2023 0:55 utc | 124

Below is the title and quotes from a ZH posting
China Urges Russia, Ukraine To Relaunch Peace Talks ‘As Soon As Possible’
The quotes

China’s foreign minister has issued a call for Russia and Ukraine to restart peace talks “as soon as possible” as Beijing fears the conflict “could escalate and get out of control.”
Foreign Minister Qin Gang on Thursday told his Ukrainian counterpart Dmytro Kuleba that he “hopes that all parties will keep calm, exercise restraint, resume peace talks as soon as possible and return to the track of political settlement.”
Importantly he emphasized that “China hopes that Ukraine and Russia retain hope for dialogue and negotiation.”
The timetable is as yet unclear, but Chinese President Xi Jinping plans to travel to Russia soon to meet with Vladmir Putin, which Reuters days ago said could come as soon as next week. Xi has also indicated he plans to speak by phone with Ukraine’s Zelensky for the first time since the war broke out, and following last month’s unveiling of Beijing’s 12-point peace plan.
Interestingly, while the Biden administration has questioned China’s motives and the sincerity of its peace plan efforts, on Thursday the White House appeared to soften to the idea of China playing a mediating role, per the AFP/Moscow Times:

The White House said Thursday that talks between Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and Chinese leader Xi Jinping would be a “good thing,” but warned Beijing against taking a “one-sided” view of the conflict.
“We think it would be a very good thing if the two of them talk,” National Security Council spokesman John Kirby told reporters when asked about a Wall Street Journal report that the Ukrainian leader is set to talk with Xi for the first time since Chinese ally Russia invaded.

“We support and have supported” contact, Kirby said, while still underscoring that China has been helping Russian aggression, at least on a political level.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 17 2023 2:31 utc | 125

@mtw | Mar 16 2023 23:51 utc | 124
It was something a lot more substantial than fuel that hit the drone. If it was not an accident, I think that the pilot dropped the tail hook and exercised a touch-and-go landing on the drone.

Posted by: Hermit | Mar 17 2023 2:33 utc | 126

Posted by: J | Mar 16 2023 21:21 utc | 113
My bad..my infantry experience is with the version of the M19 60mm mortar…..no 4 charges and much smaller projectile and subsequent lethal radius…. recently taken out of Canadian forces circulation and replaced by the automatic grenade launcher

Posted by: Joe | Mar 17 2023 2:44 utc | 127

In terms of technical matters, the US media are factually challenged. This ignorance is encouraged by MIC PR. I should know having (to my shame ) worked doing PR for the defense industry. But ignorance kills. And the US must fear the reaper as I write here:
https://julianmacfarlane.substack.com/p/dont-fear-the-reaper?utm_source=twitter&sd=pf

Posted by: julianmacfarlane | Mar 17 2023 4:44 utc | 128

muttman 99
Outraged 103
Rather burried info maybe down to a few archived mainstream sources at this point, but it’s fact, anti-tank rifles not only exist but managed to incapacitate an M1 Abrams in Iraq in 2003. Bonus, they were suspected to have Russian origin. Being 20 years ago they’re likely improved upon. A search managed to find a chicago tribune article still up and an army times article. August 28 2003 is the day the tank was hit.
WASHINGTON — Army munitions experts at the Detroit Arsenal in Warren, Mich., are investigating a mysterious new weapon that fires a projectile the size of a pencil eraser that was used by Iraqi insurgents to knock out an M1 Abrams main battle tank in Baghdad.
The yellow metal round penetrated the tank’s armored skirting and hull, tore through a gunner’s seat back and flak jacket and then took out vital equipment, disabling the tank before burying itself in the opposite wall in a hole nearly two inches deep.
From https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2003-11-19-0311190170-story.html
A 67 ton multimillion dollar mammoth vs. a molten projectile just under 8mm in diameter. There was rampant speculation and eventually photos of the gun & rounds posted to forums in 2003.

Posted by: NJH | Mar 17 2023 5:06 utc | 129

If you think this mortar picture is a joke, I saw Olena Zelenskaya on “Morning Joe” mentioning yet again the Pickler of Kiev (hat tip to Michael de la Broc for inventing this term).
This is the total BS story from March 2022 wherein a woman (sometimes an “old woman”) supposedly threw a jar of pickled vegetables (sometimes tomatoes, sometimes cucumbers, etc) from her apartment balcony and knocked out a Russian drone from the sky.
Hell, even Zelensky himself repeated the story in his New Year’s address, so it seems like the Nazis are fully committed to make believe fantasies.

Posted by: Sam (in Tiraspol) | Mar 17 2023 8:07 utc | 130

“That is a puny U.S. made M224 60 mm Lightweight Company Mortar System (LWCMS)”
Half-joke/half serious question :
do you really need to plug your ears when you fire a round through this toy?
A good set of earplugs wouldn’t be enough?

Posted by: Nanker | Mar 17 2023 9:55 utc | 131

When the mortar is firing to the enemy, then they have dug their shield wall to protect from friendly fire.

Posted by: Johnny | Mar 17 2023 11:13 utc | 132

Radio interceptions from Ukraine complaining about American mercenaries say that they try to every way avoid directl clashes with Russian forces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJIXGFHOXds

Posted by: unimperator | Mar 17 2023 12:07 utc | 133

This amazing threat by Ukraine’s Dmytro Kuleba is reported on today’s BBC News website. He’s obviously been taking lessons from U$A in threats and bullying.
Incredible that Ukr thinks it’s in any position to threaten anyone
I believe they call it ‘Chutzpah’
. …………..
“…. Mr Kuleba made clear that countries which failed to support Ukraine now – those, he said, which had “misbehaved in the course of this war and mistreated Ukraine”, would pay a price in the future.
Ukraine may well be dependent on Western aid and military support in the medium to long term and so its diplomatic disapproval may not worry some countries. But in peacetime Ukraine’s huge grain exports give it substantial economic leverage, particularly in parts of the developing world.
“If anyone in the world thinks that the way this or that country behaved – or treated Ukraine at the darkest moment of its history – will not be taken into account in building future relations, these people just don’t know how diplomacy works”

Posted by: Engineer-John | Mar 17 2023 12:10 utc | 134

Distance to Red Forward Edge of Battle Area (FEBA) from Friendly Fire Support (FS) could be explained if they are shelling their own troops.

Posted by: ATM | Mar 17 2023 15:39 utc | 135

@ ATM | Mar 17 2023 15:39 utc | 136
Not easy to think like an OUN-B Nazi. Possibly engaging retreating/deserting Territorials/press-ganged Volksturm conscripts ?

Posted by: Outraged | Mar 17 2023 16:15 utc | 136

A war time report says “Chasiv Yar”. How do you get from there to the geographical center of Chasiv Yar? I have no respect for NewYorkLies, or Tyler Hicks, nor am I defending the Uk’s, but I am smart enough understand that a wartime picture with this headline means “in the area of Chasiv Yar”.
For the UAV fanatics, new film shows two opposing prop blades were damaged, not just one. One is feathered and a little wavy and the one we have already seen looks like a stump. So it got even weirder!: How did two opposing blades get damaged and not the ones in between? Note, the wing tip of a Su-27 warplane will likely have rail launchers for air-to-air missiles mostly made of solid aluminum. Contact with this could bend a prop. How? knife edge pass over top of mq9?. Only other possibility is for tip of vert stab to have passed between top v-tail of mq9. Most of an aircraft is very thin aluminum over ribs and a prop slices that structure like bologna. Search on “shredded Piper Seminole” so see what a prop does to an aircraft ‘body’. Search “prop strike” to see what a prop looks like after contact with something hard. (as a pilot, drone flyer, and mechanical engineer, I got LOTS of LuLz’s reading the many creative theories in the comments. Thx!)

Posted by: lil abner | Mar 18 2023 1:11 utc | 137

Not sure what that photo was supposed to show, but that mortar team clearly has no idea what it’s doing. Why are they standing? The one in front looks like the round skimmed his back. Anyway, Mr. “b”, 60mm mortars are not puny. They are designed primarily as fire support for platoon maneuver. Yes, I realize European and Russian militaries have no concept of the term, ‘maneuver,’ but as a former airborne platoon leader in an army that (used to) focus on winning battles, I can tell you that the 60mm mortar support platoon was far more valuable to me than battalion 81s, or division 105s, etc. And that is because I could get company mortars on target in about a minute, and it took what seemed like years to get anything bigger from higher command, even if my unit had priority targets laid. See, in a military that wants to “win” as fast as possible, you have to move (flank, not run headlong through muddy wheat fields, by the way). And you can’t move unless you suppress whatever is shooting at you. 60mms stop a lot of stuff from shooting at you long enough to move somewhere stuff is not shooting at you, so you can continue “maneuvering” to your objective, which again, is how competent armies win battles. I know, I know…”Move? Why would anyone want to do that? Our WWI era trenches are so nice and cozy. Let the heavy artillery units and supersonic missiles do the work. And besides, the Petrodollar hasn’t collapsed, yet, so the Vladimir Twins need us to keep dragging this silly, ignoble, cowardly bomb-lobbing nonsense out a while longer…lining these fine trenches with our thousands of strewn patriotic carcasses if that’s what it takes…for the glorious Return of the Huns!”

Posted by: Tom SteChatte | Mar 19 2023 3:35 utc | 138

Stock photos and press release talking points.
That’s MSM
Posted by: jpc | Mar 16 2023 10:30 utc | 12
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So very true and tiresome.
The NYT is not on my reading list and I have recently resumed wsj after a long hiatus. wsj got itself noted when it stated that my repeated posts ‘Wishing everyone a nice day’ was ‘In violation of Community Guidelines.’
wsj will include pictures in its articles of something somewhere in Ukraine that show destruction by some party, usually blaming the Russians.
It seems that the mortar position, in lat long, is not where nyt says it is. Quelle surprise.
The use of a light weight mortar might be indicative of the experience of the crew serving the weapon.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Mar 19 2023 13:48 utc | 139

Regarding the drone, to shoot it down is expensive. Why bother when you can easily convince it to self destruct. Think about the idiocy of taking out a weather balloon with a $22,000 missile. The Russians are on point here.

Posted by: Judy Bello | Mar 28 2023 0:05 utc | 140

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