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February 11, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-36
Comments
Simon @ 305
What America needs now is a third political party and for its candidate for president it should nominate….
A real live braying donkey.
I’m not even joking, that tactic has been used around the world a few times.
I’m sure the US public would get be hind the joke/statement,left right and centre.
If the donkey won just consider how little damage it would do,in domestic and geopolitics.
Posted by: Mark2 | Feb 12 2023 12:30 utc | 301
Posted by: Ktarie | Feb 12 2023 12:30 utc | 306
“Apparently, the organizers of the British law enforcement authorities urgently warned (more than just warnings, Mercouris stresses) against the implementation of these meetings.”
Sorry for that:
Apparently, the organizers were urgently warned by the British law enforcement authorities (more than just warnings, Mercouris stresses) to hold these meetings.
Posted by: Konrad | Feb 12 2023 12:34 utc | 302
Yes, there is a contradiction in the western rhetoric. On the one hand Russia is struggling against Ukraine and “has lost 50% of the territory they held” and “advancing at snail’s pace” and “lost in Kherson, lost in Kharkiv, lost outside Kyiv and is searching for victories in the Donbas”. And yet, if they aren’t stopped in Ukraine they are going to attack a NATO country and roll through that and into other NATO countries.
Posted by: Simon | Feb 12 2023 12:42 utc | 303
Posted by: Ktarie | Feb 12 2023 12:30 utc | 306
We can’t even obtain freedom of assembly.
Two established left wing venues have cancelled the No 2 Nato meeting I am addressing in London on 25 February. Conway Hall’s reasons for cancellation included threats to funding and fears for the safety of staff.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/02/sy-hersh-and-the-way-we-live-now/
Police need to licence meeting – threat of disruption and Public Order Act is invoked……..
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/contents
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Feb 12 2023 12:42 utc | 304
@swiss army man 163
I’m not sure where they might go in the end but I can assure you that de- industrialisation is definitely occuring. I say that because a friend who works in the energy and energy distribution industry in north Germany says his clients are stopping purchases and not entering contracts.
Where their activities are going I can’t say.
Posted by: Judge Barbier | Feb 12 2023 12:46 utc | 305
Yes, there is a contradiction in the western rhetoric. On the one hand Russia is struggling against Ukraine and “has lost 50% of the territory they held” and “advancing at snail’s pace” and “lost in Kherson, lost in Kharkiv, lost outside Kyiv and is searching for victories in the Donbas”. And yet, if they aren’t stopped in Ukraine they are going to attack a NATO country and roll through that and into other NATO countries.
Posted by: Simon | Feb 12 2023 12:42 utc | 309
Sounds fine really – in first 4 years of WW2 – Britain gained no territory in Western Europe, lost two flag ships in 1941 and 3 capital ships after an aircraft carrier Indomitable ran aground……
I mean Churchill was just such a loser…….
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Feb 12 2023 12:50 utc | 306
Posted by: too scents | Feb 12 2023 11:30 utc | 299
The Hersh story was aimed deliberately at two targets:
1. The heart and soul of the Ukrainian war party – Biden, Sullivan and Nuland. The naming of Nuland is particularly significant as it pins this repugnant, odious creature directly to the crime. Hersh has supplied mug shots of the criminal gang.
2. Directly at the German polity, particularly Scholz. The China war faction in the US ruling class, has placed pressure on Scholz, who once wrote articles against ‘imperialist NATO’ as a student, when he had brains and hair,to open a full inquiry into the crime against German sovereignty. Germany is the weak link in the NATO crumbling war alliance.
This was a targeted article. Hersh placed a ticking time bomb in the depths of the deep waters of the US empire. The war is effectively over. The US ruling class just has to find a way to end it in order for it to fight the big one.
Posted by: Paul McGrory | Feb 12 2023 13:03 utc | 307
@ Jörgen Hassler | Feb 11 2023 21:15 utc | 67
Even if the section wasn’t buried you still need a lot of c4 and a James Bond style remote trigger to carry out the attack. And the signal from the bouy, it travels to four different locations that are fairly far apart un changed and un interrupted?
Sorry, it just doesn’t add up. Especially not since it would be so much easier using drones or mines placed by a robot.
——————————————————————–
Agreed.
The Swedes thought that it took about 700 tons of explosives. The only way to deliver that is by ship. CH-47s (CH-47F) have a max lift capability of 26,000 pounds. That is a lot of trips. Airborne munitions need to be very precisely delivered which rules out drones. Limpet mines might not do well here.
I have thought about this op for a long time, living near the professionals who do some of this for a living. Delivering that large a payload is one item. Designing an underwater demolitions package for a special purpose is the second item. Training, practicing and operating with a crew is a third.
The assault on taking out Ben Laden by Seal Team Six was rehearsed on replicas not far from where I live. There is nothing left and the natives do not talk to strangers.
To me it was a well planned and well rehearsed op, in the works for a long period of time. If I were the US Military, token participation by other countries would be acceptable, but not where it matters.
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Feb 12 2023 13:17 utc | 308
Posted by: too scents | Feb 12 2023 9:22 utc | 272
On reason Russia has allowed too many high officers of NATO and the Ukrainians off the hook is that the Russian leadership still have their children at universities in Western Europe. If Russia kills too many NATO operatives or Ukie leaders ,the former fear their offspring will meet Dugina’s end.
Another is that Russia may fear tit-for-tat. We kill Zel,then someone takes out Putin. This is understandable ,but not permissible in an existential war, which is what Russia claims is occurring. In WWII Churchill and Hitler at least never stopped targetting each other. That they were unsuccessful is beside the point.
Posted by: Brother Ma | Feb 12 2023 13:21 utc | 309
@Mark2
Yes the USA needed a third party. The thing is, this party needed to consist of the populists of both sides (i dont mean trump but people like gaetz and taylor-green on the one side and the jimmy dores of the other side).
But this aint gonna happen mainly because of the stupidity of the left-right game. I see it more pronounced on the left than on the right, but this doesnt matter.
Both sides need to understand, that under the current conditions none of their goals are achievable. Jimmy Dore and all his classic social democratic (health care etc.) goals are just a wet dream under the current system. He may get health care but all he will get is a system ruled by the pfizers of the world, in which you will get medication but not when you need it, but when pfizer wants to sell it.
The freedom caucus may get less government but will find their whole life ruled by mega-corporations.
Both sides need to get rid of the capture before they can go on fighting over their usual stuff.
Posted by: Orgel | Feb 12 2023 13:26 utc | 310
The war is effectively over.
Posted by: Paul McGrory | Feb 12 2023 13:03 utc | 313
—
Far from it. The war continues in febrile Western minds with their comically normalized over consumption.
The war will not be over until there has been a victory over debt peonage and the types of thinking affluence demands.
Posted by: too scents | Feb 12 2023 13:27 utc | 311
What we are witnessing is the triumph of hostile mob impulses and definitely not any well worked out strategy. Watch how Congress is now building up warmongering towards China especially as Republicans favor that and increasingly lack enthusiasm for fighting Russia.
Balloons, calls to reshore manufacturing, demands that China be stopped from buying farmland and so on. The EU’s opinions are pathetic and obsequious. They Will Do As They Are Told – as the NordStream attack escapes the headlines. I don’t feel much optimism that any part of Europe will ever break free into sovereignty, no matter how they suffer.
Future historians will be bewildered as to how the US superpower fell from causes in plain sight. Russia will defeat them in the proxy war and then ‘tag’ China to enter the ring and finish them economically.
Posted by: Eighthman | Feb 12 2023 13:28 utc | 312
Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Feb 12 2023 8:19 utc | 260
Assyrians and Babylonians? Hat-tip. Yep,even more violent.
Konrad @above re Annalena saying sorry?
It doesn’t matter what she says now. Retractions ,even if made by lawyers and newspapers, are never remembered in practice. That is why the scheming ex-gymnast is so dangerous . She instinctively knows or has been coached by NATO PR /Psyop teams to lie through her teeth with abandon. Noone will remember , and if they do she thinks she is bulletproof to any consequences by the great unwashed.
Posted by: Brother Ma | Feb 12 2023 13:31 utc | 313
Maleleuca 295
I believe you are right about ditching Joe for the sake of the 2024 election, but I struggle to think FTEU Nuland and the rest of the neocons are in the departure lounge as well. They seem to be running things ….(into the ground). There are surely anti Ukraine war groups in the Pentagon but do they have enough punch to get rid of the neocons? Maybe the lack of consultation of Congress over N S2 may turn some politicians against them ?
Posted by: Judge Barbier | Feb 12 2023 13:41 utc | 314
Orgel @ 316
Sincere thanks for that simple explanation, ever had the feeling we been here before ?
And then of course both sides are influenced by Israel duel nationals and Israel lobby groups. Add to that the Israel monopoly media.
Id vote for the mule.
America the land of the free, freedom not to think, or care. Freedom to slowly destroy all other countrys for their own disgusting selfishness.
“My mule dont like people laughing at him” Clint Eastwood YouTube.
And on and topic re Ukraine, that’s the problem that is the solution.
Posted by: Mark2 | Feb 12 2023 14:05 utc | 315
“Konrad @above re Annalena saying sorry?
It doesn’t matter what she says now. Retractions ,even if made by lawyers and newspapers, are never remembered in practice. That is why the scheming ex-gymnast is so dangerous . She instinctively knows or has been coached by NATO PR /Psyop teams to lie through her teeth with abandon. Noone will remember , and if they do she thinks she is bulletproof to any consequences by the great unwashed.”
Posted by: Brother Ma | Feb 12 2023 13:31 utc | 319
………………………………………………
I absolutely agree with you. It is an attempt to cultivate her personal image in relation to the german public, which can neither repair nor cover up the political damage she caused to germany by acting in her office, but precisely such illusions are being created. The media is the central problem of our time. They have to fulfill central obligations in our socio-political systems, which they do not catch up. The vast majority of the German media shares their worldview with the Greens and the democratic elites in the USA. They no longer feel responsible for the German domestic interests or of the different milieus in germany. They seem to see themselves more as shapers of politics as if they have empowered themselves. Pluralism, discussions? – None to find, it is a simulation. They exclude the vast majority of citizens from the discourse as a matter of course. These are scandals that we can observe every day. It frustrates me.
“Police need to licence meeting – threat of disruption and Public Order Act is invoked……..
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/contents
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | 306
————————————————
Thanks you for your afford to send in background informations, I appreciate it.
Posted by: Konrad | Feb 12 2023 14:16 utc | 316
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 12 2023 6:11 utc | 228
A very Russian success story and they manage to keep their noses clean.
Posted by: anon2020 | Feb 12 2023 14:30 utc | 317
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Feb 12 2023 2:06 utc | 174
The latest “object” to be shot down has been identified.
It was over Canada, after all
https://tinyurl.com/486hb9wd.
Posted by: T.D. | Feb 12 2023 14:31 utc | 318
@ Richard Steven Hack | Feb 12 2023 10:55 utc | 291
Agreed. Lord knows how much more would’ve been lost trying big-arrow moves from the outset. Plus complete alienation of RoW, with little chance to work on diplomatic and financial fronts. “Success too quick” in one front would’ve meant lost opportunity.
I must commend you for resisting the urge to expound on your answer. 🙂
Posted by: natokraine | Feb 12 2023 14:31 utc | 319
#247- Brother Ma… you got it wrong….Michael Nostradamus been French…born as Jew converted to Catholic..-recomend book THE COMPLETE PROPEHECIES OF NOSTRADAMUS-by Henry C. Roberts-published by NOSTRADAMUS CO.OSTER BAY ,NEW YORK….
@ute, §237:
Way off beam there, ute.
FDR deliberately provoked the Japanese into WW2. The Americans blockaded Japan three months before Pearl Harbour on the excuse that Japan had occupied Vichy-ruled French Indochina (Vietnam, etc.). Now everyone knows that a blockade is an act of war and England particularly, an island nation like Japan, knew that three months was about the limit it could survive a blockade. So no-one should have been surprised by Pearl Harbour, some four months after the start of the blockade on August 1st 1941.
In 1945, Hirohito surrendered in person and it was broadcast to Japan. In their American-drafted constitution, Hirohito renounced his divine status, saying he was an ordinary man. So you´re wrong: Japan was “Americanized”.
So much was Japan “Americanized” they are now wasting their money on expensive American war-toys to be set up as American proxies to do the fighting and dying on behalf of the American NeoCons´ planned war against China – exactly as the Ukraine has been set up to do the same against Russia. And, as the Ukraine fails, America has lined up Germany (taking the EU with it) to be their next proxy against Russia. It is cynical and psychopathic, but we´ve come to expect that from the Mafiosi mindset that now runs America.
Germany and Japan urgently need to wake up before they are destroyed by America´s ruthless gangsterism.
Posted by: John Marks | Feb 12 2023 14:54 utc | 321
@Norwegian, §253:
Jens ´Dr Strangelove´ StolenTurd has done his duty like a good puppet.
He is now being rewarded with a sinecure: to run the Norwegian Central Bank and bring in their CBDC to ensure Norwegians remain obedient slaves.
Posted by: John Marks | Feb 12 2023 15:02 utc | 322
10000 missiles for Grad MLRS arrived from Pakistan to Germany, to go to Poland then Ukr. Russia and Pakistan will have a new gas pipe (Pakistan Stream), Lavrov talked about it a few weeks ago. Pakistan wants Russia to build new railways for them too. Great strategy at work, this time not from the general staff.
Posted by: rk | Feb 12 2023 15:11 utc | 323
@Grishka, §279:
We´re all such a mixture, Grishka, e.g. the English are the product of Viking and Saxon plunder and rape of the British and Irish. The Magyar are indeed closely related (at least in language) to the Yugrians who are NOT Tatars. The Avars are of unknown provenance, possibly from the Caucasus, and it was mainly the Avars that the Magyars succeeded.
Japan is not as homogeneous as you suppose. Its population is basically Ainu (related to the Papuans!) who were pushed back by Austronesian tribes expanding northward from Taiwan.
Modern Hungary is far from what you describe, with the beautiful city of Budapest illustrative. Hungary is up in the first division in mathematics, chess and music, so it´s quite inaccurate to describe it as hill-billy country.
Posted by: John Marks | Feb 12 2023 15:27 utc | 324
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | 306
The media is the central problem of our time. (…) The vast majority of the German media shares their worldview with the Greens and the Democratic elites in the USA. They no longer feel responsible for the German domestic interests or of the different milieus in Germany. They seem to see themselves more as shapers of politics as if they have empowered themselves.
I couldn’t agree more. The German MSM don’t see themselves as agents of their readers, but as agents of their government (and Uncle Sam) on the propaganda front. Indeed they are even more atlanticist minded than most German politicians – so they are chasing them along.
Where does this come from? It has to do with the once progressive nature of the Greens, in the times when today’s senior journalists were young. Even more, it is the result of a very targeted, skillful, well funded, sustained effort of the USA themselves, implemented through such institutions as “Atlantikbrücke”. Many of today’s alpha journalists owe their careers to the mediation of such institutions. This is also the case for many politicians, notably Annalena Baerbock.
Posted by: grunzt | Feb 12 2023 15:35 utc | 325
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Feb 12 2023 6:24 utc | 231
Sy Hersh told Sputnik, “he is not done” —it’s only the aperitif, more to come.
And you continue to critique Hersh without knowing what is in his inbox.
Shoot the messenger and not the message. What did he get right?
Are you with Nuland, Biden, Blinken et al, assisting in their denials; yet (they) being on record testifying “NordStream would not go forward, one way or another, we can do it, We are happy about this terror attack.”
Oh wait, US has been engaging in terror for decades, the terrorists are their children.
Unless it has escaped you, the deliberate destruction of NordStream pipelines is an Act of War. Be thankful Russia, unlike the US, has not yet retaliated in haste, by Shock and Awe. We are still here reading about it.
Sy Hersh and The Way We Live Now
by Craig Murray, former Ambassador, Human Rights Activist
[.] “we truly are in the realm of totalitarianism and the Big Lie, but I learnt something very important about how the Big Lie works.”
It is a clear indicator of the disappearance of freedom from our so-called western democracies, that Sy Hersh, arguably the greatest living journalist, cannot get this monumental revelation on the front of the Washington Post or New York Times, but has to self-publish on the net.
Hersh tells the story of the US destruction of the Nordstream pipelines in forensic detail, giving dates, times, method and military units involved. He also outlines the importance of the Norwegian armed forces working alongside the US Navy in the operation.
One point Sy does not much stress, but it is worth saying more about, is that Norway and the USA are of course the two countries who have benefitted financially, to an enormous degree, from blowing up the pipeline.
Norway overtakes Russia
Norway became the top supplier of natural gas to Germany in 2022, displacing Russia as imports from there dried up in the wake of the war in Ukraine[.]
So Russia lost out massively financially from the destruction of Nordstream and who benefited? The USA and Norway, the two countries who blew up the pipeline.
But of course, this war is nothing to do with money or hydrocarbons and is all about freedom and democracy…
To return to Hersh’s account, particularly interesting are the series of decisions taken to avoid classification of the operation in various ways which would require it to be reported to Congress.
In terms of United States history, this ought to be a big deal.
For the Executive to commit what is an act of war without the approval of the Legislature is fundamentally unconstitutional. But that is one of those quaint remnants of democracy that the neo-liberal elite consensus can quietly sidestep nowadays.[.]
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/02/sy-hersh-and-the-way-we-live-now/
Drawn and Quartered awaits and we are going to need old pianos for the job at hand.
Posted by: Likklemore | Feb 12 2023 16:05 utc | 326
The assault on taking out Ben Laden by Seal Team Six was rehearsed on replicas not far from where I live. There is nothing left and the natives do not talk to strangers.
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Feb 12 2023 13:17 utc | 310
I agree with your assessment of the NS sabotage op.
As for bin Laden, the people near the training replicas may not have talked, but the neighbours in Abbottabad were vocal on Pakistani TV. The operation did not happen as described and bin Laden did not live there. Many non-MSM authorities say he died many years before.
The “simulation” of Obama’s bump in the polls before the 2012 election was the only thing that went off according to plan.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 12 2023 16:39 utc | 327
“wecare at war with Russia”
Thanks Konrad
„Wer keine Fehler macht, der lebt nicht“
Annalena Baerbock
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/annalena-baerbock-im-grossen-interview-wer-keine-fehler-macht-der-lebt-nicht-9326681.html
It’s beginning to look like General Ripper Annalena exceeded [his/her/they] authority….
“The one who doesn’t make mistakes, doesn’t live,”Annalena Baerbock
Tagesspiegel. 11.02.2023, 07:00 Uhr
Some more such “mistakes” and nobody will live.
Posted by: Weimar | Feb 12 2023 16:53 utc | 328
@ Likklemore | Feb 12 2023 16:05 utc | 328
Nuland would burn for awhile.
Good luck finding a heart in any of these snakes in suits.
Posted by: John Kennard | Feb 12 2023 17:53 utc | 329
Because people are being killed and held hostage while Russia appears tied down and not making quick progress. It has also given the west time to bring in more and more weapons for Ukraine, such as the HIMARS which have then been used on the Donbass civilians and also Ukraine has been shelling and killing inside Russia too.
And now Russian allies, such as Serbia are losing hope that Russia will ever win this war, or if it does it will be long too late to be able to help other countries being devoured by the west.
Posted by: MiniMo | Feb 12 2023 6:24 utc | 228
###################
Do you understand the magnitude of Russia taking on NATO? You make it sound like they should have been able to end this in the first month. This is what peer competition is like. No one runs away with a quick victory.
“Quick progress”. You make it sound like a speed round or a sprint. This could go on for several more years. Get comfortable and stay frosty.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 12 2023 18:32 utc | 330
Posted by: anon2020 | Feb 12 2023 14:30 utc | 319
##############
How we fight is as important as why we fight. It may have been simple for Russia to use hypersonic nukes to take out Washington, London, Brussels, etc in the first week if they wanted to.
I’m glad they did not. Russia has learned the lessons of Empire, and those lessons are still fresh in the minds of the living.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 12 2023 18:38 utc | 331
Posted by: Brother Ma | Feb 12 2023 13:21 utc | 311
«the Russian leadership still have their children at universities in Western Europe.»
If that’s true they are quite stupid. They have been personally “sanctioned”, didn’t they realize what that means> But I can imagine that some of them may be so arrogant to think they and their families are above any threat.
Posted by: Blissex | Feb 12 2023 19:54 utc | 332
@Tom_Q_Collins | Feb 11 2023 22:39 utc | 93
@Marvin | Feb 12 2023 7:36 utc | 248
While b has removed Bill Smith, Tom_Q_Collins is, as usual, correct. Reports about wargames are studies, the eatgames thselvesbare supporting evidence for the studies, and the U.S. Naval War College, Army War College, Air University, Marine Corps War College, Rand Corp, the Institute for Strategic Studies and others have all repeatedly concluded that the US cannot defeat either Russia or China in a regional war without recourse to thermonuclear devices. As a large part of the funding for these institutions are from US government sources, they are legally constrained from studying possible US defeat (Refer e.g. King, James E. Review of Strategic Surrender: The Senate Debate and the Book, by Paul Kecskemeti. World Politics 11, no. 3 (1959): 418–29. https://doi.org/10.2307/2009201 and the ultimate citation infra) but the one certainty is that any significant use of thermonuclear devices in airbursts over cities will lead to the extinction of most current species, particularly humans who are the apex keystone species and as such are uniquely dependent on the health of the underlying biosphere) (Refer e.g. Starr Steven (2017-01-09). Turning a Blind Eye Towards Armageddon — U.S. Leaders Reject Nuclear Winter Studies. Federation of American Scientists. Accessed https://fas.org/2017/01/turning-a-blind-eye-towards-armageddon-u-s-leaders-reject-nuclear-winter-studies). The US military regards a war when the last person to die is an American a victory, but I would not. How about you?
In 2019, analyst David Ochmanek of the RAND Corporation remarked that “In our games, when we fight Russia and China, blue gets its ass handed to it.” In November 2018, the National Defense Strategy Commission found that “If the United States had to fight Russia in a Baltic contingency or China in a war over Taiwan … Americans could face a decisive military defeat … Put bluntly, the U.S. military could lose the next state-versus-state war it fights.” These findings suggest that, in a pitched battle with a near-peer adversary such as China, American forces may be defeated even if its commanders don’t make any mistakes.
[Geist Edward (2021-06-17). Defeat is Possible. War on the Rocks. )] The entire article is well worth reading.
Posted by: Hermit | Feb 12 2023 20:10 utc | 333
Sputnik is reporting that Biden is considering resurrecting multiple 2018-era programs which would reportedly authorize the US military to send commandos in the form of “control teams” overseeing Ukrainian operatives. The programs “would allow the American military squads to direct Ukrainian militants in their attempts to counter supposed ‘Russian disinformation’ and ‘monitor troops movements on the ground.’”
Why do you need commandos to monitor disinformation? Seems like overkill. Just send the Twitter crew over.
The initiative was “designed with an eye toward great-power competition” and “allow for “the creation and command of proxy forces” to carry out actions against so-called “rogue regimes” and “near-peers” like Russia and China.”
Sounds like more boots on the ground, contrary to what Biden told us. That lunatic is sleep-walking us into another war.
Posted by: Kellen Cramer | Feb 12 2023 20:28 utc | 334
A comment happened upon today –
Russia will take all of Ukraine because there are no western leaders that Russia can trust to honor a treaty. It is the lack of western honor that will end Ukraine.
– If not prescient, close.
Posted by: Elmagnostic | Feb 12 2023 20:59 utc | 335
Posted by: Dingo | Feb 12 2023 8:16 utc | 253
Japanese animated pornography falls under a separate category “hentai”. There’s a line to be drawn between it and normal anime. Just sayin’.
Posted by: joey_n | Feb 12 2023 21:29 utc | 336
#. 338 thanks for the word distinction, between the two animations.
Posted by: Dingo | Feb 12 2023 22:53 utc | 337
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 12 2023 3:35 utc | 191
So many in the West (including good people) have been inculcated into believing that the US imperialist method of waging war against poor nations and peasant armies is the norm. The Russian Federation is waging war consistent with the von Clausewitz doctrine of his dialectical thesis that “War is thus an act of force to compel our enemy to do our will” and his dialectical antithesis: “War is merely the continuation of policy with other means.” The Special Military Operation was and is not some mere propaganda meme but a legal act by the Russian Federation under the international law doctrine of pre-emptive self defense and humanitarian intervention. So the military action was, as it must be legally, both proportionate and justified. If there is one political leader who understands von Clausewitz, it is Putin. Russia under Putin, has applied limited war as a means to achieve its political goals of defending the Russian peoples, since the early 1990s. Conflicts in Moldova, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Crimea showed the Russian Federation’s moral determination to defend the lives and rights of Russians, to prevent a Russophobic genocide. I am not a supporter of Russia Unity but support the Communist Party of Russia Federation, for what my puny distant support is worth. When a truly objective history is written of the terrible era we are living through, Putin will be placed with Stalin as a brilliant and dogged defender of the Russian people. Russia and its people are literally fighting for their lives and their rights to speak, live and be as they choose. It is incumbent on all of us, whatever our political colours, to not just pray for Russia and its peoples but to take a stand. Where ever.
Posted by: Paul McGrory | Feb 13 2023 2:05 utc | 338
Interesting piece about Russian Intelligence viz Putin etc. including Wagner group’s recent BLOCKBUSTER declaration:
this statement by Prigozhin is really a game-changer, at least on the level of rhetoric. It reads as follows:
I hereby inform you that the Wagner PMC commanders’ council has signed the protocol. ‘The council was attended by 427 people (quorum has been reached). The following decisions were made:
1. To consider as illegitimate government bodies of the USA, Great Britain and Canada.
We know for certain that the policy of these countries is based on the creation and use of terrorist organizations, as well as terrorist methods in the following spheres: military, economic, biological, information, telecommunications (cyberterrorism), humanitarian (resulting in various forms of genocide and neo-colonialism: the oppression of the black population of Africa, the Slavic peoples in particular, Russians, oppression of Asians on racial grounds), as well as confessional terrorism, especially towards Christians and Muslims.
2. Recognize as invalid the following documents: the US Declaration of Independence (ratified 4 July 1776), the Treaty of Union of Great Britain (ratified 1 May 1707), the Constitutional Act of British North America (adopted March 29, 1867).
Accordingly, having all the necessary information about the 2016 and 2020 US elections, as well as the documented facts of fraud during the latter, we determine the 2020 US election to be illegal. We recognize Great Britain as a state whose citizens currently live in a “troubled time of anarchy.”
We challenge the sovereignty of Canada due to the fact that it is a territory of the Commonwealth led by King Charles.
Based on the above, the governments of the United States, Great Britain and Canada are recognized as terrorist and illegal:
Clauses 4 and 9 of paragraph 7 of the Charter of PMC “Wagner” apply to the following chief terrorists.
US President Joseph Biden, King Charles III of Great Britain and Canada must give an explanation for what reason they illegitimately hold power in the above states, oppressing the peoples of the USA, Great Britain and Canada.
In turn, PMC “Wagner” will provide the peoples of these and other oppressed countries all kinds of assistance in countering the terrorist structures, such as the government of the United States, British and Canadian government, Islamic State, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, Katiba Masina, etc. We will protect and support the civilian population of states, that has been exposed to genocide, neo-colonialism, terrorism by private, public and supranational entities.
Putting aside the clumsy wording of the document, the meaning behind it is clear. It is a declaration of war. Also, since the founding of the modern Russian state, talk of this kind has been strictly avoided. This may sound strange for someone who grew up during the Cold War, but Russia well and truly surrendered to the West and simply bit its lip and bore the various spook projects that were launched within the countries of the FSU and did nothing to respond in kind.
https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2023/02/11/russias-intelligence-community-is-almost-certainly-compromised-at-odds-with-itself/
(via sitrepworld.info)
@Paul Greenwood | 306
it will be interesting to see if the gathering at the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin, on the same day, as the London meeting, February 25th, will be cancelled as well. It is organized by Alice Schwarzer and Sarah Wagenknecht. Alice Schwarzer is a well known feminist and Wagenknecht is member of the Bundestag. Seeing, how unisono the western governments act, it will not surprise me if this will be prohibited as well.
Posted by: fanto | Feb 13 2023 3:05 utc | 340
@Kellen Cramer | Feb 12 2023 20:28 utc | 336
>>Sounds like more boots on the ground, contrary to what Biden told us.
>>That lunatic is sleep-walking us into another war.
Reckless and irresponsible, yes. But “lunatic”? It seems to me that there is method to the madness; in fact, it’s simply what the US always does. At present, they have all sorts of people in Ukraine running the war and other things–and I’m not talking about mercs on the front line, but in an official capacity. As long as Russia just talks about “direct US involvement” and warns of “serious consequences”, then, yawn. As long as Americans in Lvov, Odessa, whatever, are not getting Iskander’d then to US eyes that means they haven’t yet reached Russia’s real red line, so they are at liberty to do more. Moscow would have been better off putting a stop to this nonsense months ago, but so far it seems they’re waiting for things to get worse.
I still contend that had Russia made good on its numerous red-lines and warnings in the Syrian war, they’d have had a sufficient deterring posture to prevent the West’s Ukraine adventure. But Moscow is still wary of escalation, for both valid and less valid reasons.
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@Scorpion | Feb 13 2023 3:03 utc | 341
What does that Wagner document mean even if it were authentic. Wagner is a private company, it doesn’t conduct state-to-state relations. Mr. Prigozhine is a businessman, even if a connected one, in charge of running said company, and he seems to be doing that effectively. His statements on world affairs often have an element of trolling, like those of Ramzan Kadyrov; they get away with this stuff because their outfits have a real impact on the battlefield, but also because in the end these words mean little as long as they don’t come from the Kremlin. Some of it may be a trail balloon for what later might become official policy; we will see.
Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Feb 13 2023 7:36 utc | 341
@Scorpion | Feb 13 2023 3:03 utc | 341
I’ve now looked at that article in Occidental Observer which you linked. Not impressed; it presents a reading of events which is so selective that it all seems to build towards a predetermined conclusion. For instance:
*Russia vacated Snake Island because they were under fire there from the accurate, longer-range weaponry which Kiev had obtained from the West. They then put some “humanitarian” spin on it which was a bit silly, but the decision itself was militarily sound it seems: if you don’t control the coast line in the Odessa region then Snake Island is indefensible. In contrast, Kiev incurs huge losses time and again defending indefensible positions. What does the author want Russia to “attack”–empty ground? For all I know Snake Island is grey zone now; educate me if I’m wrong, but the article itself does not present evidence to the contrary. Anyway, doesn’t the place’s significance lie mostly in the mythology Kiev spun around its “defenders”? Not a valid reason for Russia to sacrifice much for it.
*Yes Russia’s economic policies are still strongly influenced by neoliberalism and billionaire-friendly. Not my field of expertise, but I have also seen that Team Nabiulinna gets severely criticized for this by Sergei Glaziev. Then again, Russia’s economy is holding up much better than the West thought it would, than the Russians thought themselves, and indeed than the West’s own economies. Doesn’t it make sense then that Ms. Nabiulinna keeps her job for now, even if others disagree with her? Not on the ground there but many reports of Russia being changed by these events profoundly; but it’s gradual, slower than Glaziev c.s. would like, in part because Putin himself is not firmly in the nationalist camp–rather a balancer of various interests.
*The notion that Putin would need the FSB’s Aaron as a middleman to get in touch with people like Gerasimov and Surovikin–where is the evidence for that, and how does it hold up against massive evidence to the contrary? When I think of a chaperoned president, it’s Biden rather than VVP.
*But the article’s biggest problem is the existential question of how we got here: the Russian SMO got set off by Ukraine’s massive shelling of Donbass, in clear preparation of the region’s ethnic cleansing or worse. Donbass escalation was on Moscow’s radar as a contingency, but it was never something the Kremlin had wanted–the initial phase a year ago proceeded on an American/neocon schedule, and was clearly improvised on the Russian side with all the missteps that entailed. It will then be the task of the Russian general staff to wrest back the initiative. And as usual, the Kremlin is pretty hopeless in communicating this core issue.
Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Feb 13 2023 8:36 utc | 342
Scorpion | Feb 13 2023 3:03 utc | in the “Ukraine Open Thread 2023-36” posted THIS:
“Interesting piece about Russian Intelligence viz Putin etc. including Wagner group’s recent BLOCKBUSTER declaration, etc, etc …”
The title of the referenced the interesting piece is: “Russias intelligence community is almost certainly compromised at odds with itself“.
But why is Scorpion citing “The Occidental Observer”, you may ask?
WHO are they, what’s their agenda? Here is the first sentence of their
MISSION!
“The Occidental Observer will present original content touching on the themes of white identity, white interests, and the culture of the West.”
WHITE. WEST.
That’s enough for me from SCORPION.
Posted by: LongCovid | Feb 13 2023 9:42 utc | 343
WHITE. WEST.
That’s enough for me from SCORPION.
Posted by: LongCovid | Feb 13 2023 9:42 utc | 345
Fair enough. It was also published on his own substack and at Unz but for some reason my Jewish friend picked the Observer as the link to use.
I have no interest in white identity myself but am not in the slightest scared off by those who do. Also, I find that much of MacDonald’s writing about Jewish identity and group tactics have merit – though have never read through any of the books entirely, just summaries in various articles. In any case, since Black, Jewish, Latino, homosexual and transgender identities are kosher, why not White identity? Or are you one of those dupes who actually believe Biden and the FBI when they say that the biggest threat to America is ‘White Supremacy?’ If so, I say:
‘That’s enough for me from LongCovid!’
Rude, narrow-minded people like you make forums like this far less enjoyable.
To others: I cannot vouch for the source material the author used of course. But IF it is true that the Wagner group had a meeting and published that document then it enters the narrative matrix and may indicate something interesting or useful about what is going on therein. It is up to each reader, of course, to form their own opinion about it.
My takeaway from the piece is that Putin – like ALL leaders – is involved in a balancing act. Russophiles, including many in this echo-chamber commentariat, seem to project a sense that Russia is this neat and tidy entity with few if any internal contradictions, that their high command is impeccable and that Putin and Lavrov are close to being modern-day Saints. I suspect the truth is far more muddied and complex.
Also, this is possibly a probe to see if anyone responds. There are many people in the West who feel exactly as the Wagner communique expresses, namely that their political entities and/or representatives lack legitimacy. Many are hoping that Putin somehow rescues the West from the Evil Ones who have captured her nation states. This strikes me as propagandistic pamphleteering to muddy the waters but also maybe see what tasty fish might lurk therein. (It could also be classic CIA-style disinformation fishing for dissidents of course.) It also might be a more or less honest expression about how many of them feel, including many non-Wagner group Russians involved in this ‘existential’ conflict with NATO. They may feel they are fighting against a veritable spawn of Satan in the form of corrupted nation state ‘democracies’ hijacked by bankster oligarchs who care nothing for the people whose wealth they continuously plunder and whose lives they degrade, both domestically (in their own countries) and internationally (everywhere else).
In some sense the pronouncements highlighted in the excerpt articulate what many feel even if they might not have thought to express it in such a fashion or feel uncomfortable when seeing it so out in the open.
Sorry, that last post
Posted by: BaronAsh | Feb 13 2023 18:10 utc | 346
was by Scorpion, not BaronAsh. (His name popped up as an option and I must have selected it by mistake. For some reason all my contacts come up in that tiny window!)
BaronAsh (Scorpion) | Feb 13 2023 18:10 utc | posted in “Ukraine Open Thread 2023-36” THIS:
That’s enough for me from LongCovid! … Rude, narrow-minded people like you make forums like this far less enjoyable.”
Whoa, it seems that my last post really hit the spot.
RUDE? I simply said “for ME”, meaning that I won’t read your (usualy very long although sometimes informative) posts anymore, period.
NARROW-MINDED? Prove it. PEOPLE LIKE YOU? Ad hominem.
BTW1: WHITE, WEST, (far less) ENJOYABLE (!!) etc. are NOT narrow-minded, per SCORPION.
BTW2: Who cares about other forums “LIKE this” anyway?
Have a good day.
Posted by: LongCovid | Feb 14 2023 11:55 utc | 346