Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 28, 2023

The Context Of The New Anti-China Campaign

The reactions to yesterday's Moon of Alabama post have demonstrated how easy it is for government propagandists to yank the leash of their subjects.

More than half of comments are about barely informed Covid conspiracies theories. Only few recognized the propaganda item for what it was. The starting point of a new China hate campaign that will divert the public from mass casualties in Ukraine and other issues.

After the Wall Street Journal launched its Sunday leak the New York Times and the Washington Post also jumped onto the train. The Times thankfully does better than the WSJ given the 'low confidence' expressed about the 'intelligence' a prominent position instead of hiding it deep down in its piece:

Lab Leak Most Likely Caused Pandemic, Energy Dept. Says
The conclusion, which was made with “low confidence,” came as America’s intelligence agencies remained divided over the origins of the coronavirus.

The Post is less cautious. It is putting the content into the context of some 'storied team known as Z-Division' without ever explaining what that entity is.

Little-known scientific team behind new assessment on covid-19 origins
Small shift in favor of ‘lab leak’ theory was prompted by new data and group of weapons-lab scientists

The stenographers of various main stream media outlets understood the propaganda hints given to them and were eager to offer their participation in it.

Laura Rozen @lrozen - 20:00 UTC · Feb 27, 2023

(the number of questions at the WH press briefing about a low confidence assessment by two of 18 agencies, disputed by others, also with low confidence, on the origins of covid 19, …strikes me as bizarre. it seems there is so little there there, …)
would almost think it would not be worth reporting except as a footnote.

That is certainly correct if it were the real issue. But the context is much wider. The coming weeks will see a larger campaign of China bashing.

As the Post notes:

Director of National Intelligence Avril Haines is scheduled to testify at a Senate worldwide threats hearing next week and probably will be asked to address the matter. The House select subcommittee on the coronavirus pandemic was set to hold a roundtable exploring early covid-19 policy decisions on Tuesday.

There will be more Congress action as  the Select Committee on the Strategic Competition Between the United States and the Chinese Communist Party, a new China bashing House panel, inaugurates today:

The 7 p.m. hearing will feature four witnesses, including former President Donald Trump's national security adviser H.R. McMaster and Trump's former deputy national security adviser and China expert Matthew Pottinger. Tong Yi, who was the secretary to a prominent Chinese dissident and jailed in China for more than two years, and Scott Paul, president of the Alliance for American Manufacturing, are also set to testify.

Wisconsin Rep. Mike Gallagher, the committee's Republican chairman, told "Face the Nation" on Sunday that the panel plans to highlight the threats the Chinese Communist Party poses to U.S. interests.

"I think the Chinese spy balloon incident illustrates perfectly that this isn't just an over-there problem," the Republican said. "This isn't just a matter of some obscure territorial claim in the East China Sea. This is a right-here-at-home problem."

Mike Gallagher had promised strong action:

To win the new Cold War, we must respond to Chinese aggression with tough policies to strengthen our economy, rebuild our supply chains, speak out for human rights, stand against military aggression, and end the theft of Americans’ personal information, intellectual property, and jobs.

We must recognize that China’s "peaceful rise" was pure fiction and finally confront the CCP with the urgency the threat demands. To do that, House Republicans will establish a Select Committee on China in the new Congress.

The committee itself can not do much about the issues and its attempts to go against China will mostly be diverted into deregulating U.S. environmental protection:

Meanwhile, in 2019, approximately 90% of the world’s rare earth metals, alloys, and permanent magnets were produced in China. The Select Committee will expose our dangerous dependence on China and advance policies to build secure sources for critical supply chains, either in the United States or in partnership with like-minded allies.

A WSJ Opinion piece details what that means:

The U.S. must challenge China’s dominance in producing the refined rare-earth minerals that go into both chips and green energy. But extracting, refining and using our domestic resources—such as the newly discovered 7-square-mile store of rare earths at Sheep Creek, Mont.—will require regulatory certainty and clarity, not the current morass that fosters litigation and deters development. As these pages noted last month, America suffers from a “green-energy mineral lockup.” To compete with China, Congress must unlock them.

Reform is also necessary for less exotic yet no less essential commodities. As S&P Global urged last year in a report on copper and the green-energy transition, America’s “nexus between a politicized regulatory process and the ubiquity of litigation makes it unlikely that efforts to expand copper output in the United States would yield significant increases in domestic supply within the decade. The prospects for any expansions are higher on state and private lands.”

But domestic deregulation is not the only point of the agenda. The U.S. led conflict with China must also transfer into more spending for useless weapons. The further erosion of the U.S. One China policy, which puts China into a militarized zugzwang, will take care of that:

Despite its increasing reliance on military intimidation, Beijing’s calculus for the actual use of force remains heavily political, not military; it is centered on whether or not Washington entirely abrogates its One China Policy and opts for the permanent separation of Taiwan from China.

Such a U.S. move would back Beijing into a corner and compel it to take the huge risk of using force, either to compel Washington to reverse course or to attempt to resolve the Taiwan problem once and for all.

It is not that China has not noticed any of this. The new super aggressive U.S. ambassador to Beijing, Nicholas Burns, has done his best to prepare the scene for more conflict:

On February 15, about 350 representatives from Chinese and US political and business sectors attended the AmCham China's annual appreciation dinner where Burns delivered a speech. He criticized China's trade, state-owned enterprises, industry subsidies, cybersecurity and regulation, anti-epidemic measures and human rights policies, and even mentioned the recent unmanned airship incident. His criticism of China caused dissatisfaction among the attendees.

A source familiar with the matter told the Global Times on Thursday that a staff member from AmCham China said that while Burns was delivering the speech, "the atmosphere was extremely embarrassing."

China has learned well how U.S. propaganda works. Unlike some MoA commentators it immediately recognized the issue for what its is:

US hypes old 'lab-leak' theory in new information war operation against China

Three years into the COVID-19 pandemic, the US again gave the "lab-leak" theory a major boost, as its Energy Department, citing "new intelligence" but holding "low confidence" in it, joined the FBI in smearing China.

Reported exclusively by the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) on Sunday, the claim immediately made headlines in major US news outlets. However, its timing and source "only show the low credibility" of the report, analysts said, adding that the new hyping of an old topic is part of the US' political and information warfare with China.
One of the WSJ report's authors is Michael R. Gordon, who was behind the "weapons of mass destruction" narrative the US fabricated to justify its invasion of Iraq 20 years ago.

Lü Xiang, research fellow with the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, told the Global Times on Monday that the timing of the hype is not a coincidence, and that the US will not leave COVID out of its "ammunition depot" against China.
Being ambiguous and non-official and using media rather than government departments to announce something demonstrated the US' skill in fighting a political war, Lü said.

Hysterical crusades against China have become a signature of the US in our time. To win the competition with China, the US will not let a single chance go by to smear China, whether it is a balloon that has gone astray, a carefully planned "lab-leak" theory, or unfounded weapon supply accusations regarding the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the expert said.

Anti China rhetoric in 'western' media is indeed off the charts.

One reason that bashing China has intensified is the fear that its alliance with Russia will make a U.S. defeat in Ukraine inevitable. The recent accusations of China considering weapon deliveries to Russia, a thought crime, was a hint to that. Dima of the Military Summary channel, who is from Belarus, suggested that China could produces ammunition for Russia in his home country to avoid to be punished for it. Lukashenko's current visit to Beijing may well include talks about such a scheme.

There are some delicate non-denials that let me think there is something to it :

Yesterday, when asked about US National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan’s warning Sunday that there would be ‘real costs’ for China if it went forward with providing lethal aid to Russia, Foreign Ministry spokesperson Mao Ning did not give a direct answer. “The US is in no position to point fingers at China-Russia relations. We do not accept coercion or pressure from the US,” she said.

Interestingly, the Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov also chose not to answer a related question as to whether Russia had asked China to provide any equipment for its special military operation.

The forthcoming visit by Xi Jinping to Moscow, likely to take place next month, will be a defining moment. There is a palpable sense of disquiet in the West, as China’s manufacturing capability exceeds that of the US and Europe combined. Russia is deferring the big offensive in Ukraine, pending Xi’s visit.

Posted by b on February 28, 2023 at 17:56 UTC | Permalink

next page »

Great. You wrote: China has learned well how U.S. propaganda works.

The best type of propaganda involves making it seem like it is discovering some anti-government POV so it won't seem pro-government.

For example I hear people wonder all the time: How did social norms become altered so fast, practically overnight it has been made socially and politically dangerous to not fully support any aspect of identity politics. It is now dangerous to criticize any of the various “progressive” ideas (except anti-war and pro-working class) that were only supported on the political fringes just a handful of years ago. It was Barack Obama who said he did not support gay marriage when he first ran for president. Can you imagine any Democrat saying that just a few years later?

That cultural transformation and its political support from Democrats was not by accident, nor did it organically move outwards from liberal college campuses as many believe. All evidence instead suggests that it was a carefully thought-out plan to counter the threat of the militant Occupy Wall Street movement, which the elite corporate world saw as a real threat — by infiltrating and co-opting the progressive label into identity based politics — and thereby turning the progressives and liberals through money and propaganda into a base of support for Wall St. agendas.

Posted by: kana | Feb 28 2023 18:03 utc | 1

You're off base with this, b. You're making wild unfounded assumptions about your commentator's ability to discern bullshit, and your own ability to mindread unknowable motivations.

Posted by: catdog | Feb 28 2023 18:07 utc | 2

As predicted, the China pivot is on. The Republican face of the duopoly may be leading this, but the Dems will be glad to distract attention from Biden's losing war in eastern Europe.

Meantime, the Chinese peace proposal is not as non-committal as portrayed in USUK 'analyses'. It contains a generalized call for the same security arrangements as were specified in the draft treaties that Russia sent to the US and to NATO in December 2021.

Posted by: Paul Spencer | Feb 28 2023 18:18 utc | 3

B, just because the Americans are congenital assholes does not make China the good guys. There are no good guys or bad guys in geopolitics, only interests.

Posted by: Monos | Feb 28 2023 18:28 utc | 4

Posted by: Buffalo_Ken | Feb 28 2023 18:11 utc | 3

I should have made my criticism more clear.

It seems that b is only interested in promoting a narrative of US bad, China good, and he is picking his facts to suit his narrative. The fact of the origins of the virus are either not knowable, or known only by a very few people who have since covered their tracks. I mean known for sure, rather than merely speculated.

The facts we do know for sure, because we all lived through them, are that the US government poo-pooed the possibility that the virus was made in a Chinese lab for years, refused the "wuhan virus" moniker, didn't shut down travel to China until it was too late to contain the virus, and high US government officials were even calling for people to visit Chinatown and hug the Chinese. Then, when the virus did hit in the West, the response was a Chinese cultural import: mandatory masking, lockdowns, censorship of "disinformation", and other performative but ineffective measures because "Face" was the most important consideration. We are still suffering the consequences of the overreaction to a cold virus, and it still makes me angry thinking back on the relationships that were destroyed during that time.

Can we accept facts as facts, even if those facts are consistent with this week's GAE narrative? I blame both China and the GAE for what happened. And if the GAE was interested in using the corona hoax to stir up anti-Chinese sentiment, why have they done the opposite for the last three years?

Posted by: catdog | Feb 28 2023 18:35 utc | 5

I think there was quite a bit more 'both and' thinking in yesterdays thread than 'either or' thinking.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Feb 28 2023 18:39 utc | 6

As noted by others on the Ukie thread, the current essay by Simplicius76, "The Changing Face Of War - Future of the Russian SMO", describes the real fear lurking behind current Congressional actions: The coming AI/Dorid/Drone weaponry that will emerge as an outcome of the struggle against Unipolarity of which the SMO is a part. Congress cannot undo what's already been done to drive China and Russia together along with the RoW, that latter bit it's ignoring to its peril. Furthermore, Congress completely ignores another vital fact--Outlaw US Empire geoeconomic dependence on China. A look at the trade ledger tells the story there as a huge percentage of real GDP is generated by that trade. Ouch! As a result, the fact that the Outlaw US Empire is actually facing a deficit in power versus China isn't being seen for the great negative it is. What Congress really needs to ask is this: Is trying to remain on top of the hill really a vital US interest or will the attempt merely accelerate the USA's decline?

As b notes, the USA is facing serious deficits in key resources but there's no mention of the really important deficit carrying great weight that Simplicius does mention--educated Human Capital, which he documents. IMO, the ideological issue long in play with its roots in the Anti-Communist Crusade has combined with traditional Western hubris to blind Congress to the fallacy of its attempt to mount what it admits is a New Cold War that it can't possibly win.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 28 2023 18:42 utc | 7

@Norwegian 11. Yes and from this point forward the US's main export will be conflict porn.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Feb 28 2023 18:55 utc | 8

While I can agree with the commentary's assertion that the current wave of articles suggesting a leak from the Wuhan lab was the source the pandemic is a clear attempt at a propaganda hit against China, the true origin of the virus is another subject that has been obscured by politicization, and lines of investigation of this subject outside the main narrative have been censored.

I recall Trump's "China virus", a crude (but fairly effective) attempt at propaganda which was not taken up by the press at that time. Now we see it in a new and more virulent form, and being spread about by major news organs. Likely b is correct that this timming has to do with Russia/China cooperation and the Ukraine conflict.

That said, US bio-weapons research, very well funded since 9-11, is a deep, dark well in which evil abodes with little oversight. The 'gain of function' research carried out with US support in Wuhan and previously pioneered in US labs is not irrelevant to COVID discussions.

Posted by: the pessimist | Feb 28 2023 18:58 utc | 9

@Tannenhouser | Feb 28 2023 18:55 utc | 29

Yes and from this point forward the US's main export will be conflict porn.
From this point forward? I think that point was 60+ years ago.

Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 28 2023 18:59 utc | 10

The US is in the last stage of empire. In many ways, already a failed State running on endless borrowing. Example, there's one nuclear power plant under construction, it's $20B over the original cost of $14 billions and this is not atypical. Brain's have been imported for many years and the EDI insanity will only make a bad situation worse. China builds a destroyer for a seventh of the US cost, this cannot stand. Home ownership in China is much higher than the USA and rising while it's falling in the US as BlackRock buys up the stock to flog/collateralize it into rent based securities.The Rentier extraction classes of amerika will ride the collapse to the last amerikan.

Posted by: Bob | Feb 28 2023 19:03 utc | 11

Regarding one of the dumb COVID theories, there is the vaping thing. In 2019 there was a large swathe of people afflicted with a nasty cough from using certain "vape" products. I was one of them, stupid me, having used some new-to-the-market cannabis stuff purchased from a dispensary in Oregon. I had a nasty, raspy, productive cough for months (to the point I had to drop out of a nightly professional development course) and I confirmed my symptoms with some acquaintances who also vaped. Point being, that wasn't an early emergence of the virus that causes COVID-19 and there were not symptoms other than the cough. No fever, no headache, no weakness, no stuffy nose, no sore throat, etc. I stopped vaping and embraced the natural form of cannabis and the cough disappeared.

That said, I did catch what I'm sure to be COVID-19 in late December early January 2020 way before it was allegedly present spreading in the US community. I am also totally willing to believe that it emerged in Italy and Spain nursing home and elderly communities way before it was "officially" identified in Wuhan. Just the vaping stuff wasn't related.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Feb 28 2023 19:14 utc | 12

See the Energy Department leak as a two for one job. Demonize China while at the same time blaming China for the covid crisis. The opposite is most likely true in both cases since the messaging was disseminated by an organ of the US. The US is obviously the aggressor and most likely created/leaked the virus. My personal preference is the Fort Dietrich + US Military games theory.

Posted by: Joe | Feb 28 2023 19:15 utc | 13

If I understand correctly, the powers that be blocked an investigation into this for months and months, and now on the brink of war with China the MSM starts to entertain the possibility of a leak from a Chinese facility? Something stinks here, anyone can see that.

Posted by: Hank | Feb 28 2023 19:18 utc | 14

It is propaganda because the news does not tell you what low confidence intelligence actually means. They let you assume that they are saying something news worthy.

Per wiki

“ Low confidence generally means questionable or implausible information was used, the information is too fragmented or poorly corroborated to make solid analytic inferences, or significant concerns or problems with sources existed.”

The next level is slightly better.

“Moderate confidence Evidence is open to a number of interpretations, or is credible and plausible but lacks correlation.”

Posted by: Atm | Feb 28 2023 19:23 utc | 15

b is quite correct.
As his story demonstrates there is a serious mental health problem in Congress, and once again, it seems to be related to Wisconsin, perhaps there is something in the water.
b has been quite correct on the issue of Covid since the pandemic first appeared.

It took a while before the forces of darkness had assembled their challenges to the obvious lessons to be drawn from it and the responses of governments to the dangers facing the population.
Not since the darkest days of insane anticommunism in the USA has there been such a mass movement founded in anti-intellectualism, paranoia and the sort of sciences that prefers creationism to evolution.

This illustrates another neglected aspect of the decline of the American empire- an intellectual implosion, as the bad faith and corruption at the heart of the empire breaks up into manic aggression in governing circles and irrational beliefs in conspiracy among their natural critics.

The net result is the impossibility of reform or any change short of destruction.

The central fact of "western" discourse today is the preparation of public opinion for a possible final war against the rest of the world- that part of it, from Russia and Iran to China and Latin America, that has rejected the imperialism of the anglosphere.

Covid is, in political terms, almost without importance except that it affords-in the callousness and greed the west exhibited-a hint as to the nature of the choice before mankind: a mindset in which a million out of 50 million died or one in which five thousand of 1500 million died.

Posted by: bevin | Feb 28 2023 19:31 utc | 16

the keyword being bandied in all of this revelatory discussion is "leak". Maybe another term such as "outcome" would be more open ended and less participatory. the discussion is being bottled, as well as furthering the interests of certain criminal elements when the slant is key to further muddling.

Posted by: Not Ewe | Feb 28 2023 19:43 utc | 17

The origin of Sarscov2 virus starts with the first person who created the sequence (scientific formula) for Sarscov2. That person did not work at Wuhan.

Once he released the sequence, the respected scientific community, which had been for years before prophesying the eventual arrival of a deadly virus, that respected scientific community, almost as one, coalesced behind that man and his formula. That scientific community shouted fear at the top of their lungs that the lethal virus they had warned about had arrived and was spreading and only they, and their knowledge stood between mankind and Armageddon. Fear was sold, big time.

You can find that mans sequence referenced in almost every peer reviewed scientific paper since the publication of the sequence in GENBANK in 2020.

That formula or sequence established by that man , was the basis for lock downs, face masks, business closures and all the rest of the mayhem between 2020 and into today.

Moreover, that formula is the same formula that is used today to manufacture the vaccine which is inserted in your arm.

Is this mans sequence or formula a fraud? If it is, then that vaccine stuff being inserted in your arm is also a fraud which, in turn, suggests no one knows what's going to happen to you when it goes in.

Meet the man who put it all in motion.

Posted by: Johnny Dollar | Feb 28 2023 19:49 utc | 18

I liked the parts where you got mad at MoA commentators. :)

Well, get ready for more of it. The propaganda campaign is going to get reallllyyy thick.

It's the yellow peril all over again. It's ironic how the anti racists in the US so easily revert to racism in favour of war.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Feb 28 2023 19:55 utc | 19

Thanks, b, for trying to speak the truth, while so many are willing to spread false stories. The entire lab leak scenario falters upon lack of any evidence that there was a SARS-Covid-2 precursor at the Wuhan lab, not to mention any evidence of the Covid-19 causing virus itself present at the lab. Meanwhile, there are initial cases associated with the Wuhan wild animal market.

One telling aspect of all this is the total failure to realize that even if someone proved the lab leak scenario were true, the greatest danger, as nearly all scientists realize, of a new pandemic comes from zoonotic sources. But the lab leak proponents seem to care less about that, and spend little to zero time on the issue.

The idea that lab leak proponents were censored or suppressed for a long time is a falsification of the record. As early as June 2020, US think-tanker Milton Friedman published an article supporting the lab leak hypothesis in the pages of Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. He suffered no ill press or consequences from this article.

Leitenberg happens to also be the primary US scholar to claim evidence that China & No. Korea's claims of US use if Biological weapons during the Korean War constituted a "hoax." I have treated Leitenberg's false claims in my own work on the subject. But it's telling here how from the very start the Wuhan Lab leak hypothesis has connections with those intimately involved in spreading the US narrative about WMD.

Posted by: Jeffrey Kaye | Feb 28 2023 19:55 utc | 20

I have to admit I was a little disturbed by b's disdain for his 'bar flies', or more precisely 'more than half'.

Will the big China bashing campaign now really take off? Who's to tell. It'll be probably like Russia's much anticipated winter offensive. It may start or maybe it won't. But I think the reasons why it might not take off for the US empire would be that it would probably shatter what's left of the economies of its European vassals. In addition, everything (home appliances, electronics, ...) comes from China. In what world would the masses awaken when all of the sudden they can't replace their smart phones which for many became an integral part of their life? The US vassals are already experiencing a lot of hardship from the Ukraine war while at the same time, the US to detriment of its vassals is enticing and raking in the European heavy industries thus mortgaging the European future. The 'global south' up till now basically resisted all call's to sever ties with Russia but with China, severing ties would be next to impossible. While the Chinese come with building contracts, the Americans come with threats. In my view, the anti-China campaign took off a couple of years ago with the "Freedom of Navigation" provocations and picked up some steam with Pelosi's visit. The Chinese leadership was smart and kept their heads cool biding their time. It's doubtful that the lab-creation accusation which is in fact pure victim blaming / projection will stick on China.

Posted by: xor | Feb 28 2023 20:01 utc | 21

The B's assertions stand untouched:

1. The origin of the SARS-CoV-2, natural or artificial, is unclear. From the 2020's begginings, there have been thousends of peer review papers about this issue.

2. From the very beggining, the Trump's administration accused to the China's Lab in Wuhan as the fountain of the pandemic, without factual evidences. If you remember, the "China's virus" was viral in USA, in 2020, until the elections.

3. At the end of 2022, according to the "free press" of the "free World", China was suffering the consequences of the "zero-Covid" policies, and the chinese were dying in the streets by a new variant meanwhile the protests against the corruption of the health care system were massive. Well. In the wet dreams of the agents who try to touch some weakness in China.

4. The decisions of the chinese people to open the cities and the territories of circa 9,000,000 km^2 and 1,500,000,000 citizens was the consequence of the immunity to a biological weapon (COVID-19) that has its origin in the West's Labs. Quod pro Quo?

5. The ignorant West is a fool to recognize the bad... and the good things. The West is like a unable to understand that we are the same rain that flows in this ocean. The lies perpetuate the illusion.

6. The illusion is that we are separated.

7. The crux of our fate is that we always be in conflict meanwhile we do not desire to the others, the same we desire to us.

Posted by: Jeevaas | Feb 28 2023 20:05 utc | 22

It's the yellow peril all over again. It's ironic how the anti racists in the US so easily revert to racism in favour of war.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Feb 28 2023 19:55 utc | 48

There are no absolutist in the world today. Well, almost none. Musk is right that the media was and is rasist.

Same goes for free speech absolutists. Are you for free speech, when you say Snowden should not spread anti-chinese propaganda? Does not free speech mean also freedom for propaganda?

People are not absolutists. Almost no one is. People just choose which side they are on. The tools are the same. But it makes some people feel comfortable to think they are something they are not.

Posted by: Vikichka | Feb 28 2023 20:12 utc | 23

C'mon b, because China and Russia refused to dignify the USA's inanity with a response does not mean there is any truth to the claim being made by the empire of lies.

After all, this is not the first time the same allegation has been made about China giving Russia weapons. But later the Americans admitted that the allegation was a lie and and a psy-op.

Frankly, I don't think China has any weapons that Russia cannot produce. I'm inclined to agree with Andrei Martyanov that when it comes to military affairs it is China which depends on Russia, not vice-versa.

Posted by: Steve | Feb 28 2023 20:12 utc | 24

So, no apology for slandering Snowden yesterday. Ok, good to know.

Posted by: Zed | Feb 28 2023 20:23 utc | 25

If only, years ago, the US would've minded it's own business instead of trying to conquer the world, we wouldn't be in this dire situation. I'm wondering what would happen if the rest of the world decided that the US needs a regime change. Hmmm.

Posted by: Immaculate deception | Feb 28 2023 20:27 utc | 26

Posted by: Zed | Feb 28 2023 20:23 utc | 59

There is no question Snowden was promoting the US government's anti-chinese sentiment.

Posted by: Vikichka | Feb 28 2023 20:28 utc | 27


It is sincerely perplexing to observe your belated attempt to moderate the current mob of scientifically illiterate conspiracy theorists, after having relentlessy promoted their participation (often with the bullying attitude of self-proclaimed "regulars") and actively nurtured the myth of pseudo-independent investigative journalism as a path to knowledge.

It is also unsurprising that the few dissenting opinions are mostly based on the mere proposal of opposed, symmetric fallacies, or the most crude denial.

These patterns, exhibited here by cretins who consider themselves engaged in "critical thinking" just because they reject the supposed MSM monolith, are actually known from centuries.
Italian author A.Manzoni (XIX c.) effectively satirized pre-scientific popular opinions, by depicting a fictitious charlatan from the XVII c. who, in the midst of a plague epidemic, denied the the very existence of the disease, by "proving" that it was neither "substance", nor "accident".

In these times. we can easily observe our backwards movement, in almost every conceivable context, but this and other spaces of "discussion" are especially intoxicated.

The act of the steering similar fallacies, towards anti-Chinese propaganda, is unsurprising too. The largely racist and bigoted population of the forum is probably salivanting at such an opportunity.
Nonetheless this is still a mere epiphenomenon of the general scientific illiteracy.

Why do we see no reaction, when some troll posts delirious nonsense about fabled effects of new hypersonic weapons, or even worse, "scalar EM propagation"?
Why don't we present these people with the obvious properties of classical EM wave equations?
It would be easier to that, than try to debunk specific forms of propaganda.


In the present case, faithful to your journalistic approach, you chose to dissect "The Context of the Bew Anti-China Campaign".
This is all very well done, but lagely irrelevant.

All this WSJ garbage is still made of "intellingence", "internal reports" etc...
You should have just pointed-out that, in science, only peer reviewed and validated articles matter.

No context required.
Science can actually die from this excess of "context"...
And the rest is silence...

Posted by: MoaMetal | Feb 28 2023 20:29 utc | 28

Americans at this stage have no idea what is true and what is false, what is worse is that they dont care either.
To an American what suits their agenda is the only truth.
It's all Holywood to them, as long as they can believe their the good guys and they will win.
"Who the gods wish to distroy they first make mad"
"Fear coused by guilt"
Spring to mind.
The virus "leaked out of a laboratory " is like saying "the bullet leaked out of my gun judge.

Posted by: Mark2 | Feb 28 2023 20:30 utc | 29

And, once again, 98% of the MoA conversation has gone off the track. Which is this: the important story isn't about whether the COVID-19 pandemic originated in a lab or in the wild. It is about the MSM taking a result which its originators view as having a low probability of accuracy (hence their 'low confidence' in it) and presenting that as if it actually had a high probability of accuracy. Taken on its face, the report might not even gain publication in the Journal of Improbable Results. But after enough reprocessing in the news factory, it comes out looking like smoking gun evidence. It's the media taking a piece of Pigeon Crap data and turning it into Lemon Meringue Pie propaganda that is important. That, and the fact that they are using it to demonize China.

Some day we'll know the whole story of where the COVID coronavirus came from. But that's not what the MSM report is about, because the only conclusion it points toward is: we still don't know.

Posted by: Clever Dog | Feb 28 2023 20:32 utc | 30

b. Excellent piece of analytical propaganda autopsy. Thank you.

Posted by: Paul McGrory | Feb 28 2023 20:39 utc | 31

Dear B, Truer words were never spoken. People are dumb, very dumb. They fall for the same propaganda, over and over and over again - only now they think they're smarter.

"...fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

Posted by: JoeSixPack | Feb 28 2023 20:57 utc | 32

But yes b is deffently right about the timing of this anti China propaganda of course he is, right after the air ballon madness and as a distraction from Americas abject falure in Ukraine. it goes with out saying.
Which is why i and alot of others didn't mention it, obviously.

Posted by: Mark2 | Feb 28 2023 21:02 utc | 33

what we discover about people from how they talk about the world is not what they know, because they don't know anything.

we find out what they value.

everyone thinks Iago won't pull a fast one on them b/c we are all way too smart for that.

people who don't eat food, can't trust the water they drink, live in a constant state of repressed terror due to the threat of homelessness and a whole host of other ills, but they sure have deep thoughts. on everything. all arising from nothing but virtue and purity of heart. and lots of clicking around the internet.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Feb 28 2023 21:03 utc | 34

Using China and Covid together, makes effective propaganda. Diverts the attention from Ukraine; increasing weapon input from "NATO" countries, Disastrous finances in the west. Dodgy dollar doings. Corporate "holdings" in Ukraine. etc. etc.

As an emotional issue it can be used to raise the temperature of the masses as "everyone" can have an opinion. People can be easily manipulated to think they have been badly done by.

Basically Bats are bad (or should that be "Bats are back"?), and the next letter in the alphabet is C, (chhhiii....a).

It even throws off any serious examination to what the PRESENT Coven recommendations are and how the CDC lies it's head off. (It lacks Data about almost everything it has recommended up to now)

However, it reeks of US desperation as; without the chorus from the troll world supporting/reporting about it - it could easily backfire against the US.

ie. This is another AHAB. ("American Hot Air Balloon". Something that is only kept up by lots of hot air).

As an aside; Simplicius talks abut the changing face of war, and at the end there is a section on AI and autonomous military vehicles etc. These are already being used in Ukraine by both sides (US and Russia) and it is possible that China is about to do the same. Simplicimus
What will probably be the next step will be the personification of "Bad bad man". Xi will be personnally blamed for everything.

Posted by: Stonebird | Feb 28 2023 21:05 utc | 35

"To win the new Cold War, we must respond to Chinese aggression with tough policies to strengthen our economy, rebuild our supply chains, speak out for human rights, stand against military aggression, and end the theft of Americans’ personal information, intellectual property, and jobs."

"He criticized China's trade, state-owned enterprises, industry subsidies, cybersecurity and regulation, anti-epidemic measures and human rights policies, and even mentioned the recent unmanned airship incident."

So, the US accuses China of multiple offenses, those listed and others, including a weather balloon blown off course, and selling arms to Russia. This morning on NPR they dragged out the Uyghurs again. I saw a recent anti-Chinese diatribe mentioning animal abuse, specifically dogs.

But for some reason we are supposed to think that Edward Snowden tweeting that corporations should not be allowed to censor free speech, is the biggest threat to peace we face?

Come on, man!

Posted by: wagelaborer | Feb 28 2023 21:07 utc | 36

Thank you, b. I had another thought about the news item from the Wall Street Journal that you posted on the Edward Snowden tweet discussion. That is, to reinforce my supposition that the Department of Energy 'change of heart' (even if it is only a flutter so far) IS news, I was remembering learning some time back that often the composer of an article's headline is not the person who wrote the article, but the editor who sends it on to be printed. I don't know if this was the case for the article in question, but it would be very interesting if it is.

Posted by: juliania | Feb 28 2023 21:11 utc | 37

Canada, famous for its arrest of the CFO of Huawei, is responding to the call to come up with anti-China propaganda. Even the Prime Minister is embarrassed:

" Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says Liberal MP Han Dong is loyal to Canada, defending him Monday in response to a media report that said he was helped by the Chinese consulate while running to be the party's candidate in a Toronto-area riding in 2019.

"Trudeau also says it's not up to Canada's spy agency to "dictate to political parties who can or cannot run" in elections.

"A Global News report last week cited anonymous sources alleging the Canadian Security Intelligence Service had urged senior Liberal party staff to rescind Dong's nomination, but that Trudeau approved his candidacy.

"The report and others about Chinese meddling in Canadian elections have led opposition parties to call for a public inquiry into foreign election interference — something Trudeau has rejected..."

Posted by: bevin | Feb 28 2023 21:19 utc | 38

"...Are you for free speech, when you say Snowden should not spread anti-chinese propaganda? Does not free speech mean also freedom for propaganda?

"People are not absolutists. Almost no one is. People just choose which side they are on. The tools are the same. But it makes some people feel comfortable to think they are something they are not..."

You miss the point. In a society dominated by one class and its mercenary intellectuals and artists, Free Speech is a radical concept. To defend it is to defend the right of the exploited and the powerless to make their views heard.
Nobody defends the Free Speech of the ruling class, they say and do what they choose, whether will it or not. Our insistence on Free Speech is simply the refusal of critics of the Powers That Be to be silenced.
If you think that The Establishment and its critics have the same tools you are seriously deluded.

Posted by: bevin | Feb 28 2023 21:32 utc | 39

I just don't see how the Wuhan lab origin theory works very well at all as Western propaganda. Even if the Western populations all believe in that theory, what can they do about it short of sending a letter to Beijing demanding that they be more careful next time?

What deeply shocks me is that the University of North Carolina and a French engineering firm were somehow able to convince some Chinese development department that is perfectly OK to place a level-IV bio-lab pretty much smack in the middle of the most densely populated region of China. That is where it really gets weird!

Posted by: blues | Feb 28 2023 21:35 utc | 40

I may be wrong but Snowden is more likely to be a harmless idiot than a useful idiot. Or is he rattling the bars of his new cage?

@ karlof1 20
Yes Simplicius explanation is mind- boggling.

Posted by: Giyane | Feb 28 2023 21:35 utc | 41

thanks b...

many posters at moa today continue to miss what you are discussing -> anti-china propaganda... they could all just start with the title of your post, but NO... they are incapable!!

@ bevin | Feb 28 2023 21:19 utc | 80

that is rich coming from trudeau who listens to everything csis tells him... the trucker fiasco is only one of the many instances of his inability to represent canucks, but instead represent 24-7 fear and loathing... i am not expecting the con leader to be any different either..

this bozo Wisconsin Rep. Mike Gallagher has a real winning hand, lolol... the quote " To win the new Cold War, we must respond to Chinese aggression with tough policies to strengthen our economy, rebuild our supply chains, speak out for human rights, stand against military aggression, and end the theft of Americans’ personal information, intellectual property, and jobs." it is very similar to the quote from v nuland about standing up to bullies.. these folks are so full of shite, it defies logic! the usa is going to rebuild supply chains in the usa?? they are going to win the new cold war?? the usa is always at war.. war on terror, drugs, communism, china, russia - you name it.. constant war... ending the theft of american's personal info and etc. etc.?? this guy is such a bozo, but i suppose he has adopted the theory 'never underestimate the ignorance of your average american citizen' or something to that effect... i feel sorry for the people of wisconsin...

Posted by: james | Feb 28 2023 21:43 utc | 42

America is transparent. This is how China sees you.

Posted by: Bruce O'Hara | Feb 28 2023 21:43 utc | 43

When other nations started snooping around their own yards, they found evidence that Covid-19 existed well before the alleged lab leak occurred; yet, I've haven't read any mention of those facts, which were suppressed by media and BigTech within the Outlaw US Empire. Indeed, most of this story only exists within the Outlaw US Empire. Globally, the RoW looks on at the Empire's Congress to their amused horror at the level of lunacy they see, while Congress as usual completely discounts what the world thinks of it.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 28 2023 21:50 utc | 44

, just because the Americans are congenital assholes does not make China the good guys. There are no good guys or bad guys in geopolitics, only interests.

Posted by: Monos | Feb 28 2023 18:28 utc | 14

Excellent point and everyone should keep it foremost.
We all have our confirmation biases.
Even given there's a far more informed set of opinions here.

Posted by: jpc | Feb 28 2023 21:54 utc | 45

Michael Gordon back with his bag of tricks, cranking up the hysteria. He was closely involved with the WMD/Iraq hysteria which led to the disaster in Iraq attack while he worked at the NYT.

Posted by: Taras 77 | Feb 28 2023 22:06 utc | 46

The war pigs are lying to set up the next war. Again. Just like they did back in 2003.

Posted by: Dodrey Dougherton | Feb 28 2023 22:23 utc | 47

The virus/ bio lab/death connection is a canard which has buried itself deeply in peoples minds.

As long as that condition persists, accusations and blame of all sorts will continue to evolve and be hurled between countries who don’t like each other.

Posted by: Johnny Dollar | Feb 28 2023 22:29 utc | 48

Propaganda is about manipulating the power of belief.

Belief can topple governments, it can get people to send their children to a hopeless war (Ukraine) for foreign corporate profits. It can convince parents to castrate their sons (ClownWorld). It can convince young women that their highest value isn't the creation and development of new life, but instead a city-girl lifestyle, replete with cats, wine, anti-depressants, and loneliness.

That's what the endless lies and myths are about. We're drowning in them.

Be judicious about who, and what, you choose to believe.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Feb 28 2023 22:37 utc | 49

Posted by: jared | Feb 28 2023 22:52 utc | 96

If you think b has a "pro-Chinese agenda" in any way other than to air the 'other side' of the western propaganda we're all constantly being fed then I don't know what to tell you other than you just don't get it. It's like saying b is "pro-Putin" or "pro-Bayern Munich." Some of us adults understand that one can put forth a countervailing truth that may "help" one side's message or image without being actively "pro" that message or messenger.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Feb 28 2023 23:06 utc | 50

B’s point is unproven theories of Covid origin are being utilized as part of a propaganda campaign to demonize China, just as Russia gate and anti-Putin moves were used to prepare the western public to hate the next enemy. I concur, and it is an important point, hinting at more hostility to China to come.
Yesterday on different newscasts of ABC network I heard the new origin report was ‘low-confidence’; two hours later another reporter erroneously termed the report as ‘moderate’ confidence.

I also concur with Jeffrey Kaye @49, in particular 1st paragraph. Natural origin fits the facts best—as described here, there were two separate cases originating from the market: What this article doesn’t say is that the complete viral sequences of these two early cases differed enough as to require not one lab leak, but two, while the differences are consistent with natural origin disease transmitted via different market mammals. Scientists who have publicly supported the lab-leak theory ignore two-thirds of the 30,000 base-pair viral genome. [ To me this is epistemologically poor science—sort of like treating a diabetic’s toe pain only while annoying the links to systemic diabetes.]

Further, the latest genetic evidence for animal origin identifies contributions of at least three related bat viruses found in different locations. The actual animal source(s) have not been located. I remind you that the mammal vector for the early 2000’s SARS-I corona virus mini-epidemic was NOT IDENTIFIED FOR 14 YEARS. For various reasons, sussing out the mammal vector for SARS-II (COVID-19) is a much more difficult task.

Posted by: mjh | Feb 28 2023 23:11 utc | 51

"the atmosphere was extremely embarrassing." As befits the official duties of the embarassodor of USA.

Amb. Nicolas Burns also "even mentioned the recent unmanned airship incident." The fresh victory in the Balloon War (so fresh medals were not issued yet) clearly emboldened USA. I hope it will not as bad as at some period in Turkey where anti-Chinese hysteria flared up (not for a long time, however), and some hot heats have bitten up some Uighurs, Kyrgyz and other Chinese looking guys.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 28 2023 23:14 utc | 52

I made my position clear in the last thread on this. but I'll reiterate it here:

1) There was zero evidence for either the man-made theory or the Wuhan lab leak theory from the start.
2) AFAIK there has been no new real evidence for either theory since.
3) Cui bono? Who profits from this new government "low confidence" bullshit which is issued without evidence? That should be obvious to even morons.

b is correct. Half (or more) the people at the bar are morons when it comes to the pandemic and have been since 2020 because they're incapable of analyzing a conspiracy theory and worse are prone to making up their own so they can try to establish themselves as superior to b in analysis - which they're not.

As I did in the last thread, I'm not going to read or respond to any further comments in this threat. Haters can fuck off and die.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Feb 28 2023 23:20 utc | 53

First of all, the collective West is simply not capable of engaging in any war with China. After the Chinese ram a few Western ships and shoot a few small bullet holes in Western airliners, the logistics nightmare of such a war would become clear. I think all this pseudo-warmongering against China is just theater in the service of providing distraction from the coming really big losings. Such as the immanent loss of the Ukraine war, $20/dozen eggs, and so on. So this distraction will provide a (very shaky) 'off ramp' from all these hideous misadventures. Even if Snowden was adding fuel to the 'hate-China' psy-op (which I doubt), that could be viewed as a public service.

Posted by: blues | Feb 28 2023 23:27 utc | 54

I think b's been burning the candle at both ends and needs a break. "More than half" are "conspiracy theories"? I sent a link to this site to my dad last year and he called it 'Russian propaganda' and 'probably run by the FSB'. Conspiracy theories are a matter of perspective most of the time, but not a few of them turn out to be correct, i.e., there is a conspiracy after all.

On the matter of Covid we will never know. Lab leak? Plausible. What we do know is that vast interests are stake and the Covid is a useful stick for bashing China in US public opinion. But let's not confuse the weaponisation of Covid-origin theories with the origin of covid as a scientific investigation.

And b: we all love you, but don't be fickle about which conspiracy theories you like and don't like.

Posted by: Patroklos | Feb 28 2023 23:27 utc | 55

Seems obvious to me that a concerted state media campaign to convince us it was a lab leak confirms only that it was nothing of the sort.

In which case my long-standing assumption that this was a biowarfare attack by the US on China and Iran seems even more likely.

Posted by: Socratic Dog | Feb 28 2023 23:28 utc | 56

Good post B, thanks. It is somewhat amusing watching, as all this Russia-Ukraine stuff has kicked into high gear, the number of people in the West who are able to see through all the anti-Russia nonsense but lack all ability to fathom anything similar with China.

I liked this description from one of the articles you quote: "Trump's former deputy national security adviser and China expert Matthew Pottinger". Better, I think, to describe Pottinger as a particularly deranged anti-China bigot. He got shoved around by a security guard once in China, when he worked there as a 'journalist', and seems to have been obsessed and hell-bent on nuclear revenge ever since.

A one-time fantastic commentator on China issues (since bullied into a long vacation by "China Watchers") has a great thread on Pottinger's central role in creating the COVID-19 fiasco that developed in America as the pandemic started. You may find it worthwhile!

Posted by: Gordon | Feb 28 2023 23:32 utc | 57

*who are UNABLE to see through

Posted by: Gordon | Feb 28 2023 23:35 utc | 58

USA hiding behind two faced politics, was the unending of trust in trade, commerce and economics as
entire planet started blocking USA.

Understanding stagnant USA left behind many decades ago, had to import talent for lacking expertise while borrowing to fund own currency. USA sold out hundred years ago is owned by third party who dances dementia patient as leader and programs masses with hallucinating imagery and makeup. Do you see any defenses protecting USA anywhere? Obvious the USA military doesn't even command it's own forces in theater of operation, and can not even make a bullet without getting permission from neonazi USA supposedly beat...
Fuk the one world race gov

Posted by: Timewilltell | Feb 28 2023 23:44 utc | 59

It is shocking how many people believe that China released Covid-19 on China to get back at the West. I would like one of these true believers to explain how that is suppose to work to China's advantage.

Posted by: ATM | Feb 28 2023 23:54 utc | 60

B,the reason, I think, many misinterpreted your post yesterday is because you started off on Snowden and made it the central point.

You should have headlined "US government ramps up anti-Chinese propaganda with lab-leak accusations" and then ended with "even Snowden is propagating it, without recognizing it of course" as an after thought.

I for one, do not believe the lab-origin theory simply because the propenents mutually contradict each other. Was Wuhan Institute of Virology? Or a US lab in Ukraine? Was it a Chinese bio weapon or a US bio weapon? Or is it a WEF conspiracy for that global reset or simply a ploy for Pfiser to make cash off of vaccines?

It's entirely possible it came from a wet market in Wuhan like it was originally said. Microbes go through thousands of generations per day. Evolution and mutation is constant. New diseases and new variants of existing diseases pop up all the time.

People's perception of human understanding of biology and human capability in bioengineering is far more inflated than reality. Unlike physical sciences, the primary driving force in scientific investigation in biological sciences is statistics i.e., you do x and y and get z as a result with certain probability. And why one gets z is not usually understood. Also this opens the door to shady statistics practices like p-hacking which are ubiquitous in academia.

With such limited understanding on how nature and biological life works, I wouldn't expect humans anywhere, even with all the modern technology, to be able to synthesize a virus with exact medical response specifications.

The inability to make a vaccine that doesn't require jabbing oneself EVERY THREE MONTHS against a virus that's only marginally more dangerous than the flu is a testament to this fact.

Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | Feb 28 2023 23:57 utc | 61

@Monos | Feb 28 2023 18:28 utc | 14

When did the PRC ever invade another country?

When did the PRC ever engage in predatory trade or economic practices?

Before you accept and repeat what you are told about another country, perhaps you should ask yourself who is telling you this, and what evidence they have to sustain what they are telling you.

If you examine what you have been told about China, you may find that you have been lied to.

Posted by: Hermit | Mar 1 2023 0:05 utc | 62

The west (owners) is bankrupt nervous scared and so dangerous.
Ukraine is a project of the owners with US as proxy. Ukraine is pivot point to gaining control of Russia. The west is all in.

I imagine it is largely same players seeking global dominance.

Posted by: jared | Mar 1 2023 0:12 utc | 63

with elections creeping up expect lots of this shit but especially "durrr china stoal our elekshuns" retardation. it's already started here in canadia along with the recycling of the dumbass "ban tik tok" nonsense. one has to wonder why government devices were allowed to have such a useless app installed to begin with. great infosec, guys.

as for the conspiracy tards, the only thing more contagious than covid is stupidity. i'd bet money i don't have that all these "red pill" NPCs fall for 10 actual conspiracies a day. "durrr i know all about the china virus lab leak durrr have you tried the carnivore diet durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr".

Posted by: the pair | Mar 1 2023 0:31 utc | 64

Let us not forget that Donald Trump routinely referred to Covid-19 as the “China virus.” He probably still does.

Posted by: Rob | Mar 1 2023 0:32 utc | 65

As some of us predicted this thread too has degenerated into a pointless but somewhat vitriolic series of assertions on what began covid 19. Personally I couldn't give a flying fuck about that, I consider it irrelevant because however it began it is now endemic throughout the world, something no amount of looking back can ever alter and whatever position most (from reading the tossage posted here it seems most= 99%) opinions are determined by the amerikan poster's opinions on amerika's carefully nurtured, continually reinforced culture wars. IOW the only possible outcome is division among a group causing it to immediately forget that their commonality is the destructive & self sabotaging amerikan empire, which has always been the primary purpose of these culture wars, to create division among humans united on one vital issue by diverting them into alleyways of usually irrelevant but heated argument.

b.'s point one that I support was that the reason this particular theory was given prominence right now, when it had previously been fiercely resisted by the PTB, elites, blob, whatever, is that in reality those arseholes don't care wtf plebs think about the causes of the pandemic, that is in the past which cannot be altered and anyway since it is only presented as a theory it can always be shot down if/when necessary however what won't won't leave with this theory is a residual dislike of China that has been seeded by publicising this theory at this time.

Of course those who have hung their hat on a particular point of view they argued for a number of years about will get so lost in the weeds over this seeming revelation that they are going to ignore the motive for the revelation in their rush to push forward what appears to be justification for their point of view.

Nevermind that they are performing exactly as this propaganda intended, that the time for such revelations is long past because they can change nothing; fools will do as fools do, this as I posted the other night, is exactly how amerikans have been tricked into fighting for so much that is harmful to them and theirs.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Mar 1 2023 0:34 utc | 66

@ Posted by: kana | Feb 28 2023 18:03 utc | 1

Helped along by the CIA, they successfully hitched the entire Left identity political class to the pro- Russia military effort and triangulate vs the China effort. This support is staying strong even as social spending is reduced to help cover the debt.

The anti-war and policy level progressive advocates are now the lunatic fringe of US politics.

Posted by: MillerJ | Mar 1 2023 0:36 utc | 67

Apologies for the diversion on the opium trade yesterday, at least it wasn’t a recycling of origin-of-covid theories. But back on topic.

A seemingly unreported and understandable reaction to the crescendo of propaganda sewage is China’s reaction to the use of VPNs. Ostensibly illegal but something of a grey area, hitherto for most of the time there was a kind of “live and let live” approach whereby there would occasionally be sensitive periods when they would be blocked, but things would ease up after a week or so.

This changed last December and the attacks have since been relentless. Express must be working around the clock but they are in a treadmill. I was without a service over the weekend, but downloaded a new version on Monday and it’s still active this morning. Fortunately MoA is not firewalled, but when the VPN is down it’s goodbye YouTube and many other regulars. On the other hand it does free up a lot of time, particularly since Mercouris broke the one hour barrier.

Posted by: Walt | Mar 1 2023 0:39 utc | 68

@ the pair | Mar 1 2023 0:31 utc | 128

yeah, us dumb canucks have to be told what csis, or ex-csis thinks on a regular basis... a lot of dough brains will eat that up..

Posted by: james | Mar 1 2023 0:40 utc | 69

@ Debsisdead | Mar 1 2023 0:34 utc | 132

true... thanks..

Posted by: james | Mar 1 2023 0:42 utc | 70

It's fascinating that Western leaders who constantly attack China and Russia are surprised that they start moving together. They could have court one and fight the other in order to separate them but, quite stupidly, choose to fight both.
Such hubris is beyond reason.

Now the play can develop : China's peace offer are rejected by Washington and Brussel. Kiev was interested but will have to follow, proving by doing so it doesn't have any real agency. (Which, in turn and retrospectively, proves that Russia was right in claiming Ukraine was a Western tool against it)

China having tried in vain to mediate with diplomacy, and subject to ever more stringent western sanctions will start to openly help Russia.
US and the West will be confronted with a stark choice let China guarantee Russia a crushing victory through its gigantic industrial capacity or try to stop it with "sanctions from hell".

If they chooses the former they will backtrack from all their grandiloquent commitments of last year and face some very serious questions while their imperial might disappear in from of the whole world.

If they choose the latter, the process decoupling will be engaged. Without any guarantee it can then be stopped once having momentum. More ominously, this decoupling risk creating an economic crisis of proportion never seen before on earth. And they will be, in the eye of the world, be responsible for having started it.

Posted by: Saracen's Head | Mar 1 2023 0:46 utc | 71

If I hadn't been around here for so long I could have sworn I waking into a Qanon meeting.

The cognitive blindspots on bad China by many is simply astounding.

Keep it up b. You get the most flak when you're on target.

Posted by: A.L. | Mar 1 2023 0:54 utc | 72

Imo the long awaited pivot to China has started because it’s time to fuhgedaboud the ukrain adventure… big bucks have been made by our oligarchs, big contracts let to replace old crap with new, huge profits for our fossil co’s, and Germany put down. So didn’t get to loot Russia again but lots of lesser objectives met. Eu mission accomplished, time to smoothly pivot to mess up Taiwan.
The good news for me is ww3 with Russia looks to recede, granted I now worry we’ll start it over Taiwan instead, though seems less likely… China not as threatened over Taiwan, and if Taiwan’s chips give west too much advantage, it’s easy to take out the fabs. No reason to invade, though maybe see a naval blockade as we did with Cuba.

Posted by: John k | Mar 1 2023 1:07 utc | 73

Noname from Hormuz etc.

Two views

1. Snowden is pushing a narrative/concensus.
2. Snowden is saying always question the narrative/concensus.

It cannot by logic be both, in as far as Snowden is opined to have a point of view and is not merely sowing confusion or antagonism.

b , you jumped to no. 1 because either you are defensive of China or because you react strongly to yet another narrative being pushed (by WSJ and others) .

Were it number 2. then Snowden would be saying don't trust the new narrative also. So it is too fast to insult him. Equally his posts leave open a plausible deniability, or are designed to make people think or argue out a topic. That worked, in a third man sort of way, but you have to ask "if media was pushing the new narrative without Snowden acting as pivot to the story, how would people then be reacting ?".

Would they be more likely to believe msm or less likely to ?

In other words is Snowden a distraction or a help, and to who ?

Anyone will have their own perception on that, the short of it though is that engineered origin was witheld and washed over by certain people, the re-presentation of the info carefully managed to suit a purpose.

Some will say as ammunition against China, some will say to cover own participation, and so on.

The point is that society as a whole is being sent in various directions by the theme, argues uselessly because in reality it is just trolling the info as presented, being powerless to do more than form its own herd concensus, one which it is fed it in one form or another.

Those behind the whole theme just profit, because they are evil, and because evil has no purpose but to satisfy itself at the expense of others. Nor you nor I will understand that any the better, to try to apply or invent reason for that reality is to assume those who participate are interested at all in what most people relate to in life.

They don't.

Posted by: noname | Mar 1 2023 1:18 utc | 74

barstool @130 & Hermit @131--

Thanks for your comments and kudos to you both. The ability of microbes to exchange genetic material at varying rates is something only recently understood by specialists and still confounds the public as do too many biological mechanisms, thus the ease of unethical scientists and business-people's ability to fool the public--and Congress. Regardless the virus's origins it was clearly used to perpetrate a grand fraud on the public for many billions of dollars and perhaps millions of related deaths, and it's for those reasons why the pandemic will remain a very sore point until it stops being one. Along with the Pharma fraud many governments opted to use the pandemic for political purposes many of which generated blowback that's still ongoing. At some future point when the political climate's much different and research has advanced, we may finally be provided with an empirical answer, but I'm not holding my breath.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 1 2023 2:01 utc | 75

Canada is doing its part as the 51st state by contributing to the anti-China theatre its very own 'election interference' by the SeeSeePee drama.
The head of CSIS, Mendicino is a proven liar on the record; lying appears to be his job.
At the domestic level, this is an attack on influential political Chinese Canadians in Ontario. In media, it serves the broader goal of manufacturing consent, along with Covid and the Uygurs.

Posted by: TDeL | Mar 1 2023 2:01 utc | 76

In his Wall Street Journal op-ed, "The Iraq Connection", former CIA director James Woolsey pointed out that Iraq was the state "most likely" to support an anthrax attack against the United States and urged the government not to require "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" to make Iraq its focus. "Saddam has a festering sense of revenge for his humiliation in the Gulf War," Woolsey warned.
The anthrax scare: not a germ of truth | Nicolaus Mills | The Guardian

In fact, the anthrax was made at the US Army's biodefence labs at Fort Detrick, Maryland. Nevertheless, it had been used to help cement the case for war against Saddam Hussein based on his alleged “weapons of mass destruction” that never actually existed.
Most Americans have forgotten this piece of Americana history, but 5 people died and 17 others were sickened, several Congressmen and Senators who were sitting on the fence concerning Congressional approval for war with Iraq received letters with US produced Anthrax inside. When it was finally exposed that the anthrax was in fact US military grade anthrax, and produced at Fort Detrick, Maryland, the FBI rushed to produce a patsy, ala Oswald, and in the end, they fingered Mr. Bruce Ivins. They described him as a disgruntled scientist working at the Army's biodefence labs at Fort Detrick. Mr. Ivins protested his innocence, but he was never to have his day at trial.

The official story is that he committed suicide in 2008 before he could be brought to trial. I suggest that he received the Epstein treatment. At any rate, the case was dropped, and the investigation closed, within a few weeks of Mr. Ivins convenient demise.

So, why do I bring this up now? Because the anthrax story, the other lies about WMD in Iraq,
the Nord Stream Affair, all suggest that it is far more likely that Covid 19 was a product developed in a US lab somewhere in the world, rather than a leak from the Wuhan Lab in China as the Biden Administration is trying to suggest to the world today. The US has a long record of such behavior.

Posted by: Ed | Mar 1 2023 2:05 utc | 77

Given that it's still 228, a national holiday in Taiwan, let me say this as someone from Taiwan:

Taiwan is part of China, full stop. 228 is a case of historical revisionism drummed up to stir anti-Chinese separatist sentiment in China, something likely crafted by CIA and Japanese psyops.

Western imperialists have mastered the art of divide and conquer, which is exactly what we are seeing play out in the former USSR states and China-Taiwan (throw in Xinjiang and Tibet too).

Posted by: Handsome Man | Mar 1 2023 2:22 utc | 78

Here is an interesting analysis of the genealogy of the Lab Leak theory itself.

It asks some compelling questions such as who first promoted this theory and when.

In particular, the Lab Leak theory was first leaked by Radio Free Asia--which is an American Government-bankrolled media outlet (and de facto CIA front)--way back in January 2020 even before the first death from Covid was reported or the subsequent Covid Panic was a "thing."

This is all purely coincidental of course.

U.S. Government Identified as Original Source of Lab Leak Theory. What’s Really Going On?

Posted by: ak74 | Mar 1 2023 2:26 utc | 79

Article spot on! Most will agree that the US lies at every turn. But when it comes to their sugarstick China. They lick that sweet thing all the way to the stick. China hater gonna hate.

Posted by: Dferg | Mar 1 2023 2:54 utc | 80

Maybe we should all embrace our inner fool ! that road leads to true enlightenment !
Did you have the first jab not knowing ther would be a secound then a third ect. So you got fooled right.

The people on this thread who still question the American man made origin. Fall into the same group ie, fools. But are to proud to be honest, hurt ego, vanity.
The thought that the same people who deliberatly made the virus as a weapon, also made the vaccine in order to make a shed load of Money,
Would make me feel a fool, but then I didn't have any jabs.
Unlike b, he told us.
Now let's all take a look in the mirror.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 1 2023 3:19 utc | 81

Arestodemous @ 172
Those documents from the Ukraine Lab have been made public by the Russian govenment and disclosed to the UN,
Who promptly dismissed it ( no surprises there)
It was all linked to on MOA 3 or 4 months ago.
It was in pdf form and beyound any doubt conclusive.
Thanks oputun knocks @ 171
Good timing there sir.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 1 2023 3:41 utc | 82

Free Speech is a radical concept. To defend it is to defend the right of the exploited and the powerless to make their views heard.

Posted by: bevin | Feb 28 2023 21:32 utc | 81

Who do you think those "exploited and powerless" people are? The millions who agree with mainstream and think like the government that "desinformation" must be forbidden speech?

If you became as powerful as the deep state today, Would you not make opposing views to your hard to hear? Limit freedom to spread War propaganda? Sinophobia? Russophobia? Or would you use the same tools to limit the exposure of the people to harmful information?

Posted by: Vikichka | Mar 1 2023 3:46 utc | 83

The Context Of The New Anti-China Campaign

Thank you b


When the entire garden aka 'international community' aka anglo/euro mob plus their gardeners [jp, sk, india....] scream 'yellow peril' does it make China a 'threat' ?

Of course not, every sane man can see China has been under siege, by the garden since the days of ENA.

So this is a classic case of bandits crying robbery.
The garden's signatory MO

Al Jazeera

Is it too late for USAss to contain China ?

Thats the trouble with the world right now
How to solve the problem if everybody is barking up the wrong tree ?


Beware of he who come to snitch on someone.


John Walsh

Can China Contain America?


Posted by: denk | Mar 1 2023 3:47 utc | 84

Aristodemous @ 175
Thanks for that personal story of which I entirely agree with the sentiment contained.
Thanks for all your posts, all very readable.

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 1 2023 3:53 utc | 85

@ Posted by: Hermit | Mar 1 2023 3:40 utc | 176

The United States has waived sovereign immunity to a limited extent, mainly through the Federal Tort Claims Act, which waives the immunity if a tortious act of a federal employee causes damage, and the Tucker Act, which waives the immunity over claims arising out of contracts to which the federal government is a party.

So yes and yes, with respect to Covid-19.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Mar 1 2023 4:17 utc | 86

The US House has a panel looking at China any they are ranting about human rights.

Given that they are bought toadies for the God of Mammon cult, the hypocrisy they are projecting is expected.

I don't know how it will rise in the public view but the difference between public finance centered China in contrast with global private finance centered empire must become clear....this will indicate the curtain has finally dropped for all to see social organization hegemony by the God of Mammon cult.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 1 2023 4:28 utc | 87


Indonesia’s Health Minister Accuses U.S. Of Bird Flu Bio-Weapon Conspiracy

Nicaragua accused the CIA of creating a massive outbreak of dengue fever

CIA Link to Cuban Pig Virus Reported, swine flu

Chinese writer blamed USAss for SARS 2003

Chinese Col accused USAss for bird flu bio warfare

many think USAss behind C19 'pandemic' caper.

dOES IT make USAss guilty as charged ?

Lets see,

USAss has been attacking the above countries with covert/overt wars since time immemorial, including bio./chem attack during the KOREAN WAR.

SARS IN 2003

FUS has the biggest bio weapon program in the world, with hundreds of bio labs all over the world.

In addition.....

FUS 'MALaria eradication program'[sic] in Pak led to massive dengue outbreak

FUS ebola lab in Africa spawn the ebola 'pandemic'

One years after FUS bubonic lab in Kazakhstan
yumen city across the border in China hit by bubonic plague, triggered a lockdown

NIH scientists weaponised, er, gof H5N1, H7N9 bird flu and publicised the result.
BOth virus hit China multiple times,

dengue fever has been the intense focus of U.S. army and CIA biological warfare

dengue were covertly conducted in a low-income African American neighborhood

FUS tested LSD in French town,

tip of an iceberg

If FUS could test those Frankenstein craps on its own people, on its 'allies', why not on the jungle ?

Hence the empire watch rule one applies
When it comes to the USAss, assume guilty until proven innocent.

Posted by: denk | Mar 1 2023 4:47 utc | 88

It seems this anti-China campaign was thoroughly pre-planned, as the "memo" also went out to Canada weeks ago:

Intelligence agency-incited furor over lurid claims China interfered in Canada’s 2019 and 2021 elections

Canada’s media and political establishment are in the grips of a China “under the bed” furor following leaks from a highly-placed source or sources within the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), Canada’s premier intelligence agency.

The principal conduit for these leaks has been the Globe and Mail, Canada’s “newspaper of record” and the traditional voice of Bay Street. On a daily basis for most of the past three weeks, the Globe has published major, generally lead, articles devoted to disseminating lurid allegations of a nefarious Chinese plot to undermine Canadian democracy.

This relentless anti-China propaganda, which has been enthusiastically taken up by the opposition parties and most corporate media outlets, has a two-fold purpose. First, to demonize China in furtherance of the US-led, Canadian imperialist-supported military-strategic offensive against Beijing; and second, to destabilize and push the Trudeau Liberal government sharply further right.

The centrepiece of the Globe’s hysterical campaign was a lengthy February 17 article, under a headline that occupied half of the front page of its print edition, that purported to describe Beijing’s “sophisticated strategy” to influence the outcome of the 2021 federal election. Citing “secret and top-secret” documents that were “shared among senior government officials and Canada’s Five Eyes intelligence allies of the United States, Britain, Australia and New Zealand,” the article alleged that China’s goals were to ensure a minority Liberal government and defeat Conservative candidates viewed as being more hardline towards Beijing. Conveniently enough for the intelligence agencies’ fear-mongering campaign, this was precisely the outcome of the 2021 vote.

The allegations led to a flood of articles in the Globe and other outlets, all citing unnamed “sources” within the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service (CSIS) Canada’s top domestic spy agency. The public has been bombarded with a deluge of generally vague, unproven allegations straight from the powerful national security apparatus without having any possibility to verify them. CSIS, notorious for violating the law, trampling on democratic rights, carrying out mass surveillance and lying to the special courts that are meant to monitor its activities, is essentially saying: “Trust us.” ...

Posted by: JMF | Mar 1 2023 7:08 utc | 89

And the clown show continues:

Financial Times argues that Chinese airlines have an "unfair advantage" as they can be faster and cheaper than Western airlines (due to sanctions). Extending on this logic, Chinese industries also have an "unfair advantage" as they did not cut themselves off from energy supplies.

Posted by: Irish | Mar 1 2023 7:24 utc | 90

Why doesn't China do us all a favour already and sanction the shit out of the US?
I mean, sudden and widespread Dollar Store closures would cause average Americans to lose their minds in the way that bread shortages trigger revolutions.

(I'll probably get put on some list now for saying that.)

Posted by: Irish | Mar 1 2023 7:51 utc | 91

Wow, it’s happening again. Many comments totally missing the point and jumping head first into the speculation game - exactly what the originators of this media narrative want.

A sure way for your post not to be read is to start it with “I think..”, “It’s obvious…”, “It’s been proven on the internet…” or “According to Wikipedia…” far too many of these posts in last two days.

All those bashing b, for pointing out the China bashing on the basis ‘China is not perfect’, consider that the media hate campaign has already got to you.

Posted by: Lev Davidovich | Mar 1 2023 8:41 utc | 92

Will Trudeau fall and Freeland rise...?

Trots have a new piece up 'Intelligence agency-incited furor over lurid claims China interfered in Canada's 2019 election. Have the PTB decided to 'Trump' Trudeau? Will Gauleiter Freeland replace him? Biden visits soon.

Posted by: John Gilberts | Mar 1 2023 8:49 utc | 93

Obviously, the NATO propaganda about China spreading disease across the world is garbage, and familiar garbage to anyone who has seen the nineteenth-century "Yellow Peril" propaganda. (I've just been rereading John Pilger's book about Australia, A Secret Country, which has a lot of images of anti-Chinese racism from the nineteenth century when white Australians were lynching Chinese under orders from their corporate masters.)

We don't actually know anything about the sources of COVID. Some of us think we do, but we don't.

Meanwhile, although I respect Snowden, it's worth remembering that he's a right-wing tech-geek who thought it would be clever to join the CIA and only turned on them when he discovered -- shock! horror! -- that they were dishonest. He was brave to come out in the open and reveal the facts, but that was partly innocence, believing that he could accomplish something by so doing. It's unlikely that his political opinions have changed that much, and he's most probably hostile to China to some extent, which is why he doesn't mind spreading U.S. propaganda in that regard.

Perhaps everybody should calm down a little on this issue.

Posted by: MFB | Mar 1 2023 8:58 utc | 94

I know this is unprovable and maybe just plain wrong. But I have noticed a correlation between various reports in the MSM about Covid when the military situation in Ukraine is terrible for the West. Suddenly the more sheepish in the population put on their masks and do what they do best: shut up and bah.

Posted by: Stierlitz | Mar 1 2023 9:04 utc | 95

Thank you, B! That was my immediate reaction when I saw this ‘news’ spreading out. First, the Chinese balloon….balloons, balloons everywhere…now Wuhan laboratory. What will come next?

Posted by: Lubica | Mar 1 2023 9:42 utc | 96

Posted by: Walt | Mar 1 2023 0:39 utc | 135

I lived in China for 6 years so I am familiar with VPN issues. I am still subscribed to a VPN and now when I live in Europe which instituted a firewall, it’s still useful!

Posted by: RB | Mar 1 2023 10:08 utc | 97

Re :

The forthcoming visit by Xi Jinping to Moscow, likely to take place next month, will be a defining moment. There is a palpable sense of disquiet in the West, as China’s manufacturing capability exceeds that of the US and Europe combined. Russia is deferring the big offensive in Ukraine, pending Xi’s visit.

Glad to see 'b' and the quoted text agree with my suggestion from the previous Ukraine thread that there is a "pause button" until Xi and Putin meet and possibly a final green light is given for the Russian offensive (presuming it'll be", see:

Merlin 2 | Feb 28 2023 8:27 utc | 263

The comment was in response to the question: "What is Russia waiting for?"

Posted by: team10tim | Feb 27 2023 16:12 utc | 1

Since it's been offered late and likely not seen by many here is my original comment:

"Several commenters have taken up this question, but no harm in yet another take (in case no one has pointed it out yet):

The answer is, in one word, China. A country currently backing Russia -diplomatically and politically, as well as economically, So having effectively a "green light" from this corner is a very important consideration for Russia, Indeed, many many have viewed China's recent proposals - from the '12 points' to the 'peace plan" as possibly a last ditch effort to either get the key players in the West at least thinking about an exit stratefy,

To most of us here this seems like a fool's errand because we know our western elites' mind-frame all too well. But China has always been cautious in its actions and indeed it is relatively recently that their top foreign policy brass even started to talk more forcefully to their American adversaries. Still, the Chinese way is to leave "no stone unturned" before irrevocable actions that risk still more escalation.

Furthermore, China knows very well they are next in line and have every expectation that now that the sanctions against Russia are nearly exhausted, it is them, their companies and their economy that is on the line. Perhaps they may not even be sure they are ready to absorb the full fury of the West. So the 'go slow' approach, as they inch ever closer to a state of readiness seems prudent.

So, the caution of China perhaps combined with the deliberate "ambiguity" of India and some other players, no doubt played a role in Russia waiting a little while longer before unleashing an offensive that's bound to cause the entire West to discombobulate into fits of vitriol we have so far only gotten a taste of.

OTOH, if and once all these seemingly reasonable Chinese overtures are rejected out of hand (not just by Ukraine but by the US and Europe) that may just be the straw that breaks the camel's back, namely exhaust that famous reservoir of patience China is known for. That's why I eagerly await word of whether Xi is expected to visit Russia in the near term (say, the next week or so). Should this summit occur, I believe we just may see "something big happen".

I do believe (need to check) that there was that high level meeting between Putin and Xi - during the '22 Olympics I believe? many believe that this is when the SVO go-ahead was agreed upon, including all that this entailed.

We'll see.....impatient lot that we are around here...."

Posted by: Merlin 2 | Mar 1 2023 10:08 utc | 98

IMO, we can bash China all we want but almost everything we buy here in the USofA is made in China.
We export to China like $1 billion worth and import from China like $8 billion worth.
How can we go to war with a country that supplies so much of our stuff? We will have no clothes, no socks(!),
no goods on our store shelves.
The items we buy are from "American"(now multinational) companies, so they have a stake in it.
Think Nike, Ralph Lauren, apple, to name just 3.
It does not make any sense to me.

Posted by: a lurking reader | Mar 1 2023 12:30 utc | 99

Dr Strangelove was right. The most effective tool in the kit is the threat of something foreign entering the body. One remembers that anthrax knocked the World Trade towers off the frontpage for a week. Then there was plutonium, sarin, novichok. Virus serves the same purpose, it is always there to pull out of the hat.

Posted by: skeerly | Mar 1 2023 13:08 utc | 100

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