The Buildup To War In Ukraine - Tuesday, February 15, 2022
After the 2014 coup in Kiev the dully elected President Yanukovich had fled the country. His supporters in parliament were afraid and would no show up for further assemblies. The incoming U.S. selected government immediately set out to suppress the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine. The first move of the rump parliament, now dominated by right-wing people from west Ukraine, was to prohibit the Russian language for official business.
The ethnic Russian population in the east and southeast was opposed to the coup and rebelled against it. The new government tried to oppress it by military means. But a lot of soldiers defected to the rebels and soon those won the upper hand. The Ukrainian government troops were decisively defeated, twice. Each time the French, German, Russian and Ukrainian governments set down to come to agreements on how to proceed:
The first, known as the Minsk Protocol, was drafted in 2014 by the Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine, consisting of Ukraine, Russia, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), with mediation by the leaders of France and Germany in the so-called Normandy Format. After extensive talks in Minsk, Belarus, the agreement was signed on 5 September 2014 by representatives of the Trilateral Contact Group and, without recognition of their status, by the then-leaders of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) and Luhansk People's Republic (LPR). This agreement followed multiple previous attempts to stop the fighting in the region and aimed to implement an immediate ceasefire.
The agreement failed to stop fighting, and was thus followed with a revised and updated agreement, Minsk II, which was signed on 12 February 2015. This agreement consisted of a package of measures, including a ceasefire, withdrawal of heavy weapons from the front line, release of prisoners of war, constitutional reform in Ukraine granting self-government to certain areas of Donbas and restoring control of the state border to the Ukrainian government. While fighting subsided following the agreement's signing, it never ended completely, and the agreement's provisions were never fully implemented.
The Minsk II agreement, a "Package of measures for the Implementation of the Minsk agreements", was endorsed by the UN Security Council Resolution 2205. It is available here. The package includes clearly numbered tasks. An immediate ceasefire is task 1. The 'Launch of a dialogue' about legislation measures the Ukrainian parliament would have to take to recognize a special status for Donbas is step 4. Step 9 is the reinstatement of full control of the state border by the government.
These clearly defined steps later proved to be the reason why the agreement was never fully implemented. The government of Ukraine insisted that step 9 should be taken before step 4. The governments of the Donetsk and Luhansk republics insisted on the original sequencing as giving up any control over the boarder with Russia, and the supplies coming through it, would have taken away their ability to defend themselves before the other steps, specifically the recognition of the special status of the Donbas republics, had been taken.
Over the years several summits were held to push for a fulfillment of the Minsk agreements. But the government of Ukraine, with 'western' support, continued to block the process.
On Tuesday, February 15 2022, following talks with the German chancellor Olaf Scholz, President Vladimir Putin ordered some troops who had been stationed near the border with Ukraine to move back to their barracks.
France 24 listed other headlines of the day:
- Blinken speaks to FRANCE 24: The Ukrainian crisis has 'reinforced transatlantic solidarity'
- NATO chief says 'cautious optimism' over Ukraine crisis
- Ukraine crisis: Blinken says risk of Russian invasion high
- Should I stay or should I go? Ukrainians remain resolute despite a war of nerves
- Scholz welcomes Russian withdrawal of some troops from near Ukraine
- Putin, Scholz begin talks in Moscow over Ukraine security
- Russia says some troops return to base, Ukraine reacts cautiously
- Markets calmer after Zelensky's invasion joke spooks investors
France 24, and many other 'western' media, missed something important that was happening in Russia:
Russia's parliament will vote on Tuesday to decide whether to ask President Vladimir Putin to recognise two Russian-backed breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine as independent, the speaker of the Duma lower house said.
...
The idea of asking Putin to recognise the breakaway territories was first floated by lawmakers on Jan. 19 but has taken weeks to get onto parliament's agenda, with the Kremlin declining to comment on whether it likes the idea.
In late January 2022 the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) had analyzed the idea:
On January 19, 11 members of the State Duma, Russia’s lower house of parliament, registered a draft law to recognize the independence of two separatist statelets in eastern Ukraine that have been warring with Kyiv since 2014 with substantial but undeclared support from Moscow. The document, which was put forward by members of the Communist Party, comes amid rising tensions along Ukraine’s border and in occupied Crimea, as Russia continues its buildup of military forces while demanding that the collective West agree to proposals to reshape the European security order to its liking.This is not the first time that Russian parliamentarians have sought to provide official recognition to the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics (abbreviated as the DPR and LPR, respectively). In 2014, deputies from the party launched an abortive campaign to collect signatures in support of recognizing the territories’ independence, which would have been delivered to President Putin for consideration. Meanwhile, the Just Russia party called for recognizing the statelets’ independence that same year and has included it in subsequent party platforms.
This was not the idea of the major government supporting United Russia party, but of the parliamentarian opposition. Putin had rejected the 2014 attempt towards independence as he did want to keep the Donbas republics within Ukraine.
CSIS writes that an eventual recognition of the independence of Donbas was seen by its supporters as a step that might help to avoid a war:
The approach suggested by the Communists offers certain advantages to Russia. First, with negotiations on Russia’s security demands stalled, extending official recognition to the LPR and DPR could give Putin a relatively simple way to shift the status quo in Russia’s favor without (necessarily) involving the 127,000-strong Russian forces currently encircling Ukraine.The chairman of the State Duma’s committee dealing with relations in neighboring states has already indicated that recognizing the statelets’ independence could be part of Russia’s “plan B” in case talks fail. If Russia would want to allow more time for negotiations to play out, while also escalating pressure to compel the West to accept at least some of its core positions, then recognition of the statelets could be considered in the Kremlin as an appropriate next step. Should Ukraine and the West make substantial concessions at that stage, then Putin would be able to proclaim a victory in the current standoff and draw down his forces rather than risk a spiraling escalation with unpredictable outcomes.
During its February 15 session the Duma adopted the resolution:
Russia's lower house of parliament voted on Tuesday to ask President Vladimir Putin to recognise two Russian-backed breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine as independent and the European Union told Moscow not to follow through.The move by the State Duma, if approved, could further inflame a wider standoff over a Russian military build-up near Ukraine that has fuelled Western fears that Moscow could attack. Russia denies any invasion plans and has accused the West of hysteria.
Recognition of the self-declared Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics could kill the Minsk peace process in eastern Ukraine, where a conflict in the region known as Donbass between government forces and Moscow-backed separatists has cost 15,000 lives.
"Kyiv is not observing the Minsk agreements. Our citizens and compatriots who live in Donbass need our help and support," Vyacheslav Volodin, the State Duma speaker, wrote on social media.
...
At a news conference in Moscow, Putin declined to be drawn out on how he plans to respond. He said Russians were sympathetic to the residents of the Donbass region, but he wanted the regions' problems to be resolved through the Minsk accords.
...
Four-way peace talks between Ukraine, Russia, France and Germany were held last week but ended without a breakthrough.After the talks, Ukraine said it would not yield to pressure from Moscow to negotiate directly with the separatists, while Russia accused Kyiv of putting forward absurd proposals.
The OSCE Special Observer Mission at the ceasefire line in southeast-Ukraine reported of February 15 that the number of ceasefire violations continued to be below average. The number of explosions, i.e. artillery impacts, was higher than average but mostly limited to one area where they hit on both sides of the ceasefire line:
In Donetsk region, the SMM recorded 24 ceasefire violations, including five explosions. In the previous reporting period, it recorded 17 ceasefire violations in the region.In Luhansk region, the Mission recorded 129 ceasefire violations, including 71 explosions.
...
The majority of ceasefire violations occurred in areas close to the disengagement area near Zolote (government-controlled, 60km west of Luhansk) (see below). In the previous reporting period, the Mission recorded 157 ceasefire violations in the region, some of which also occurred near the disengagement area near Zolote.
...
During the reporting period, the SMM camera in Zolote recorded four projectiles in flight, while Mission patrols heard 61 undetermined explosions and 37 bursts of heavy-machine-gun fire, assessed as outside the disengagement area near Zolote but within 5km of its periphery.
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Posted by b on February 15, 2023 at 14:45 UTC | Permalink
next page »@ b
Many thanks. Great Work. Recording historic events.
Consider this series to be published - Clarity Press may be interested. In the past, Global Research featured some of your articles.
+ + + + +
The 'Not Ukraine' Open Thread buried deep days ago.
This is huge: A thorn in 10 Downing St, ....Scotland First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon just announced she's following Jacinda. She resigns.
Posted by: Likklemore | Feb 15 2023 14:59 utc | 2
Likklemore@2
NATO needs a new head, preferably a woman and Freeland is probably not interested.
Posted by: bevin | Feb 15 2023 15:06 utc | 3
Great work moa. If you want War, you get war, if you want peace, you get peace. Follow the money and power as always.
Posted by: Bob | Feb 15 2023 15:31 utc | 5
@Exile 1:
Ukrainian is not only a language, it is a recognised official language in Crimea and the Russian government has set up an agency for the preservation of Ukrainian (which in Ukranazistan is being deliberately purged of Russian origin words, just like Pakistani Urdu has been partly purged of Hindi origin words in favour of Arabic, making it quite different from Indian Urdu).
What is not a language is surzhik, the pidgin Russian/Ukrainian spoken by the majority of "Ukrainian" speaking Ukrainians. Pure Ukrainian is spoken by not be many Ukrainians, apparently. At least I - and I have met many Ukrainians- have never met anyone who could speak it.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Feb 15 2023 15:31 utc | 6
On Telegram I saw this morning a notice posted on a German barracks door aimed at Ukranazistani military “trainees” informing them that the display of swastikas and other nazi symbols was illegal in Germany so could they kindly refrain from it.
The notice was in German, so they can still do it and claim they didn’t understand.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Feb 15 2023 15:33 utc | 7
Exile@1
That is my understanding, but the details elude me.
Is Ukrainian merely Russian plus a few Polish/German words spoken with different accents? If so the Russian speakers are being asked little more than to do what English speakers do in Scotland where the language-see Robert Burns- has minor variances which sound like a different language.
On the other hand there are parts of Ukraine where Hungarian and, I believe, Rumanian are the local languages and they are completely different from Russian.
It would be interesting to read an expert's opinion on the subject.
Posted by: bevin | Feb 15 2023 15:34 utc | 8
There appears to be a new emerging narrative to cover for Nato's depleting ammunition stocks, that this is somehow due to Ukraine's 'Soviet' way of fighting, whereas Nato is not so ammunition intensive.
It seems Ben Wallace is implying that it is Ukraine's fault that it is running out of ammunition, because it is not fighting the way Nato wants it to:
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/33467
If that is the case, then what was stopping Nato from supplying Ukraine with the 'right' weapons and tactics the past 8 years exactly? It sounds like copium butt hurt to me and pre-emptive straw man arguments for Ukraine's eventual defeat.
Russia is expending massive amounts of ammunition simply because it can. If that ends up how Russia prevails, it will certainly not be because its tactics were 'wrong', and only highlight the futility in fighting 'the Western way' when it comes to winning a war.
Posted by: Et Tu | Feb 15 2023 15:36 utc | 9
One quibble - there is NO Ukrainian Language. It’s a Russian dialect.It’s as silly as if one tried to say Yankee is a distinct language because Yankees call frying pans ‘skillets’ and rubber bands ‘elastics’
Posted by: Exile | Feb 15 2023 14:57 utc | 1
Stop it. I live with a 50/50 Russian/Ukrainian hybrid and they are different languages with a common root origin.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 15 2023 15:36 utc | 10
@ bevin | Feb 15 2023 15:34 utc | 8
---
"Russians With Attitude" did an amusing podcast on the subject of the Ukrainian language.
2nd half, after Gogol ==> https://youtu.be/n0V4Q7OXGmY
Posted by: too scents | Feb 15 2023 15:43 utc | 11
Et Tu | 9
NAFO's "style" is based on air supperiority, which clearly is not applicable in the case in Ukraine. Ergo, they have to rely (mostly) on ammo instead. Artillery fire is Russia's maim asset at the moment. Perhaps, if RF destroy 90% of Ukrainian AD we'll see a different scenario in the skies.
Btw, "Resolution 2205" would be a good brand name for toilet paper.
Posted by: Sektion2B | Feb 15 2023 15:51 utc | 12
Ukrainian is a dialect that has been purged to make it supposedly a new language. Just like Croatian and “Bosnian” from Serb and Kosovan from Albanian (no purging here. They aim to unite!)
It is exactly like an Appalachian Kentuckian compared to a New Yorker. Same with “Ukrainian”. Is someone going to say that Austrian German is not German? Or Cypriot Greek is not Greek? Or US English is not English? Canadian French not French? Why not? US has been free over two hundred years, right ? Why isnt it a different language? It isn’t because the same people ,kept speaking the same language and the elites in the US still learned from the UK and the USAians never made a POLITICAL choice to change their language or deny their dominant ethnic ancestry . The Ukrainian national movement was invented out of whole cloth by the Austro-Hungarians, and especially since the Maidan Movement. Wholesale fraud.
Enough with this rubbish about different languages. It is Russian , from Rusyn all that millennium ago! Did you know that Zelensky had to be taught “Ukrainian”- oops, I mean the Galician West Ukraine version of Russian- for his political career. He was from a Russian -speaking family and laughed at Galician-speakers in his early days.
Posted by: Brother Ma | Feb 15 2023 15:53 utc | 13
What is not a language is surzhik, the pidgin Russian/Ukrainian spoken by the majority of "Ukrainian" speaking Ukrainians. Pure Ukrainian is spoken by not be many Ukrainians, apparently. At least I - and I have met many Ukrainians- have never met anyone who could speak it.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Feb 15 2023 15:31 utc | 6
Thanks for proving my point
Posted by: Exile | Feb 15 2023 16:06 utc | 14
Strange confession from Stoltenberg on monday 13
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_211689.htm?selectedLocale=en
"Actually since 2014, NATO has implemented the biggest reinforcements of collective defense in a generation, because the war didn't start in February last year. It started in 2014. And that triggered a big adaptation of our Alliance with higher readiness of forces, with more presence in eastern part of the Alliance, with more exercises."
So Putin did not start an unprovoked war in feb.2022, after all ?
Jens, who has been steering NATO since 2014, knows it all.
Posted by: chb | Feb 15 2023 16:06 utc | 15
What is "Ukraine?"
@Brother Ma | Feb 15 2023 15:53 utc | 13Ukrainian is a dialect that has been purged to make it supposedly a new language. Just like Croatian and “Bosnian” from Serb and Kosovan from Albanian.
USAians never made a POLITICAL choice to change their language or deny their dominant ethnic ancestry. The Ukrainian national movement was invented out of whole cloth by the Austro-Hungarians, and especially since the Maidan Movement. Wholesale fraud.
Everything about modern Ukraine can be summed up by this truism.
Ukraine is not a nation. It is a racist theory about the inferiority of the Russian people.
Also, note what I wrote three weeks ago.
Re: genocideThe systematic de-Russification of Eastern Europe by NATO is the greatest act of genocide in the 21st century.
The Kyiv regime is not only anti-Russian. It is genocidal. It aims to deny and deprive Ukrainians of the right to language, culture, religion, history, nationality and identity and replace them with a Galician ethnicity, a Nazi ideology, and a hate-based Satan-worshiping religion.
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jan 26 2023 9:12 utc | 1
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 15 2023 16:06 utc | 16
too scents@11 Thank you.
And thanks to Biswapriya Purkayast too for the information.
I'm inclined to believe Brother Ma.
Posted by: bevin | Feb 15 2023 16:11 utc | 17
@chb | Feb 15 2023 16:06 utc | 15
Jens, who has been steering NATO since 2014, knows it all.He knows he is recognized as a quisling and what it means. Hence the panic and hand waving.
Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 15 2023 16:18 utc | 18
A better analogy for the 2 languages would be Spanish vs Portuguese rather than UK English vs American English. Both are of Latin origins and diverged.
The conflict will never be resolved if both side think the other are their stupid, backward cousins.
And naturally that is exactly what the US/UK wants. So stop feeding it!!!
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 15 2023 16:19 utc | 19
Posted by: Et Tu | Feb 15 2023 14:00 utc | 286
Re: speed of the SMO
As you are aware there has been heavy fighting in Ugledar for several months nows. Yet I came across an interesting post on TG as incredible as it may seem given the heavy fighting there.
Key statements by the acting head of the DPR, Denis Pushilin :◾️The situation on the line of contact in the Donetsk people's Republic is steadily tense;
◾️ There are about 1,400 civilians in Ugledar, some of them have already been evacuated by Russian forces;
◾️There were no prospects for the Minsk agreement's implementation by Kiev, and Donbass was to become part of Russia;
◾️ The Russian troops (units of the Wagner PMC) fully control three of the four roads to Artemovsk, which were used by the AFU to bring reinforcements to the city;
◾️The Russian army has entrenched itself in the southern part of Ugledar, but the AFU is transferring reserves to the city.
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/32831
There can be many reasons why they’ve decided to stay put during a major war (age/infirmity etc.) but that doesn’t change the fact that Russia has to take this into account when assaulting a city. We also know that the UAF take advantage of the presence of civilians to station their military equipment amongst them using them de facto as human shields.
So Russia can easily drop several thermobaric bombs on Ugledar and wipe out the UAF but they would have also killed at least 1400 civilians. As far as I can see Russia doesn’t do US style shock and awe, bomb the village to save it.
Posted by: Down South | Feb 15 2023 16:22 utc | 20
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Feb 15 2023 15:33 utc | 7
Regarding that note about displaying swastikas: seems to be a fake simply because the language used in it doesn’t sound very German. It looks as if somebody wrote that in another language and used machine translation to translate it to German…
Posted by: Zet | Feb 15 2023 16:23 utc | 21
February 19, 2023, the D.C. Rally -
against the 'Rage Against The War Machine'
among the speakers are; former congressmen/women Dr. Ron Paul, Denis Kucinich, Tulsi Gabbard and Judge Andrew Napolitano.
One of the Sponsors is American journalist Caleb Maupin. In his interview (VIDEO) he told the Sputniknews outlet: "for anti-war sentiment to gain any traction in the country, it needs a total overhaul,"
There is a massive anti-war sentiment across the United States, he insisted, yet the movement itself in the US has been plagued by infighting. Furthermore, it has essentially been hijacked by certain forces that have "stage-managed" the protest movement in Washington, DC for several decades, he added. Since the Iraq War protests of 2003-2004, rallies have shrunk in size and, in recent time, forces dominating the anti-war protest movement in the United States are tied in with the Democratic Party and its Stop Trump agenda, the analyst emphasized.[.]
Posted by: Likklemore | Feb 15 2023 16:29 utc | 22
Posted by: Down South | Feb 15 2023 16:22 utc | 20
There are, AFAIK, no civilians left in Marinka. Why doesn't Russia send in 200 tanks (or whatever weapons needed) and wipe out the rest of the resistance? Or rather, why didn't they do this half a year ago? Marinka is a key point and could be used to cut off Ugledar. Instead they're attacking Ugledar head on, not very successfully. Please enlighten me! This wasn't what Martyanov told me about the Russian strategic geniuses. I cannot just "trust the plan."
Sometimes it seems to me that the Russians don't want to win. The only notable success they have is the Wagner group. And they're no longer allowed to recruit convicts. I guess there was just too much winning for Gerasimov.
Posted by: Zebra | Feb 15 2023 16:33 utc | 23
>>Is Ukrainian merely Russian plus a few Polish/German words spoken with different accents?
Onky if you also think Spanish is same as Italian, except with 30% words different, plus different pronunciation and spelling.
Spanish-Portuguese is NOT a good analogy for Russian-Ukrainian because European Portuguese has radically different pronunciation from Spanish but very similar vocabulary. Whereas with Spanish and Italian, pronunciation difference is minor and systematic but vocabulary difference fairly large.
Official Ukrainian (used in government documents, contracts, food labels, newspapers, television, etc,) is not difficult for native Russian speakers to read (maybe 40 hours study), more difficult understand spoken language (maybe 200 hours study) but quite difficult to speak correctly because of tendency to revert back to Russian and mix the languages up (Surzhyk). Same as native Spanish speakers can easily learn to read Italian and understand spoken Italian, but speaking Italian correctly will be difficult, with strong tendency to use Spanish vocabulary with Italian pronunciation.
In practice, native Russian speakers in Ukraine often write longer documents in Russian, then use computer translation program to get Ukrainian version, to avoid accidentally creating Surzhyk. Because all Ukrainians can read Ukrainian perfectly, they will instantly recognize if translation program screwed up, and can then fix the error manually. Bilingual Ukrainians can often recognize when Ukrainian has been translated from Russian original (or vice-versa), because of certain idioms and stylistic nuances beyond capabilities of current generation computer translation programs. Same as bilingual Spanish/Italians can often recognize documents translated into Italian from Spanish original or vice-versa.
In ordinary conversation in Ukraine, native Russian Ukrainians and native Ukrainian Ukrainians often cross speak: they each speak their native language and understand the other person.
Western Ukrainian is not the official version (which is based on Ukrainian as spoken in Cherkasy oblast). It has many differences in vocabulary from official version (more Polish words).
Posted by: Revelo | Feb 15 2023 16:36 utc | 24
"Ukrainian" seems to be spoken with kind of hard hacking accent meticulously aiming to avoid palatalization and using surreal invented or obsolete words.
Zelensky spoke flawless Russian as his mother tongue before he switched to this безумие.
All Ukrainian refugees here speak Russian in their mutual settings.
Amusing sidestory - strike called this Friday for Munich Airport causes chaos for annual Munich Security Confernce starting Friday. Dozens of ministerial level officials expected but even private planes are likely also canceled because of strike,
Posted by: Exile | Feb 15 2023 16:49 utc | 26
A nation is defined by its members. If a great number of Russian speakers (or Russian-dialect speakers, or same root different language speakers of Ukrainian) want to form their own nation, then that is all it takes for them to be a nation culturally.
And, as regards a nation state, as others have said, a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.
All this discussion is really beside the point. The only issues are a) if the population of a particular geographic region wants to be autonomous/independent/part of another nation, and b) if they can show that they are oppressed by the state/or possibly majority of the polity in which they now reside. 8 years of bombing would seem to meet the latter test. (As would, incidentally, the enormous mistreatment of Ukrainians under the Soviet Union, even if it was mainly effected by Ukrainian Bolsheviks, working for Stalin).
Posted by: Pearce Tournier | Feb 15 2023 16:52 utc | 27
Ukrainian is quite different from Russian (e.g victory in Russian: pabeda in Ukrainian : peremoga treason in Russian: predatelstvo in Ukrainian: Zrada) I don't speak Ukrainian so I can't compare both exactly, but I'd say I would understand at best some 75% of the words if I were to read a book (in my experience vocabulary in Belarusian and Bulgarian are the closest to Russian) it's like comparing Spanish and French. To someone that speaks only English would be (very rudimentary) something in the level of : ( Russian): "after finishing the task the boy went to his house ate soup talked to his mother then went to bed and slept" (Ukrainian) "post endung tha tasc tha kidd goed to his home heddar soup spoketh to his mafher then goed to wurst and sleeped"
Posted by: Phariah | Feb 15 2023 16:54 utc | 28
@Phariah | Feb 15 2023 16:54 utc | 28
"post endung tha tasc tha kidd goed to his home heddar soup spoketh to his mafher then goed to wurst and sleeped"No wonder a war broke out.
Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 15 2023 17:00 utc | 29
Thanks for another retrospective, particularly the refresher about the impetus from the Duma for the formal recognition of the Donbass republics.
So many people I know have swallowed the MSM vomit about President Putin being “a thug, a bully, a dictator”. When I respond that matters have been, and are, guided by the Russian parliament and the President can’t just act on a whim, the comeback I get given is “What parliament? It’s a dictatorship, he’s a dictator”, at which point I have to bite my tongue, then take a sip of beer. It’s bloody hard being surrounded by those who regard themselves as enlightened and intelligent!
This post gives me a new link to refer people to, at least those who I feel are becoming slightly more questioning of the Mighty Wurlitzer.
Posted by: West of England Andy | Feb 15 2023 17:02 utc | 30
@Phariah | Feb 15 2023 16:54 utc | 28
"post endung tha tasc tha kidd goed to his home heddar soup spoketh to his mafher then goed to wurst and sleeped"
Isn’t that Geordie?!
Posted by: West of England Andy | Feb 15 2023 17:06 utc | 31
Thanks again to b for his recap. Yesterday I spent much time reading what I have archived on my VK about the events leading up to 24 Feb 2022, and it's all fresh in my mind again. Unfortunately, b is only on the 15th, while the big events occur on the 21st--the nationwide TV broadcast of the Security Council meeting to discuss the Duma's legislation that was followed several hours later by Putin's Recognition Speech. The Council Meeting is extremely important. I provided links to several events yesterday and repeat them: Lavrov's 14 Feb Report to Putin, my article on Scholtz's meeting with Putin on the 15th which contains the link to the vital presser with Scholtz. In reviewing the latter, it's clear that Scholtz is carrying out his orders to continue the Minsk charade and to continue blocking NS2 approval. Putin's diplomatic but not a happy camper. Unfortunately, Putin didn't meet with Lavrov to get his report until after his meeting with Scholtz. Given the content of Lavrov's report, IMO Putin's meeting with Scholtz and the presser after would've been rather different.
There's much more to add, but I have no more time presently.
NATO needs a new head, preferably a woman and Freeland is probably not interested.
Obviously von der Leyen is ideal and she can combine it with her other job as Sales Rep for Pfizer
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Feb 15 2023 17:12 utc | 33
This business of Ukrainian as a language is hardly original. Mao boasted to Khrushchev that unlike Russian Chinese had its own word for "electricity" yet the origin of the word is Greek and Latin........
Old Chaucerian English sounded Germanic......in 13th Century
Ukrainian uses Old Czech and Old Polish words.........
The fact is there were no national borders in the fluid European Plain as different conquerors swept across.........if Ukraine wants to create a "national language" exclusively it will need to shrink its territorial claims to those areas that actually speak it........
Even the Republic of Ireland does not make Gaelic exclusive and Plaid Cymru would not dare restrict its territory to native Welsh speaking zones
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Feb 15 2023 17:24 utc | 34
Fifty years experience on jobsites in Chicago with a steady flow of East European immigrants. Slavic speakers all understand each other with the large exception of the South Slavic language group from Balkans. And they could be understood with effort. Lingua franca when required was most often Russian. Later Ukrainian arrivals of course would not use Russian and made a big deal out of differences. Everyone else speaks of how similar the different languages are and how easy it is to work together.
Older residents of Ukrainian Village say it is a group of village dialects. New arrivals say a language. New arrivals mostly jerks no one wants to work with anyway.
Posted by: oldhippie | Feb 15 2023 17:27 utc | 35
The LDNR regions did not vote for ‘independence’, but for self-rule/autonomy.
There was no separatist agenda at the outset; that came about due to the use of the army and Nazi battalions.
Many other areas had similar votes, but did not manage to actually keep the UA out.
In many of these areas there was heavy repression and extra-judicial pressures, including thousands of kidnappings, murders, and imprisonment by right-wing goon squads as well as the SBU.
Posted by: Webej | Feb 15 2023 17:31 utc | 36
@ 33 re Canada’s Freeland … OT, obliquely connected to NATO, Ukraine
The Liberal party establishment, maybe just Trudeau but I doubt it, still seem very intent on promoting her to a greater post than one in Canada’s federal politics. If she’s not interested in NATO, perhaps she’ll take the mayor of Toronto?
Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Feb 15 2023 17:37 utc | 37
Posted by: Zebra | Feb 15 2023 16:33 utc | 23
There are, AFAIK, no civilians left in Marinka. Why doesn't Russia send in 200 tanks (or whatever weapons needed) and wipe out the rest of the resistance?Clearly you could care less how many soldiers die in a frontal assault on a heavily fortified and heavily defended city but the Russian GS do. Why needlessly sacrifice the lives of soldiers on a frontal assault when targeted artillery can do the same job? Ukraine is literally gang pressing civilians all over Ukraine due to the heavy losses suffered by such stupid tactics you advocate the Russians undertake.
Or rather, why didn't they do this half a year ago?Due to insufficient manpower they had to shorten defensive lines until the mobilised could be trained and brought to the front.
Marinka is a key point and could be used to cut off Ugledar. Instead they're attacking Ugledar head on, not very successfully.By whose standard? UAF is suffering heavy casualties and progress is being made at a sustainable pace whilst minimising casualties.
Please enlighten me! This wasn't what Martyanov told me about the Russian strategic geniuses. I cannot just "trust the plan."Firstly, I don’t have to do anything. Secondly, Martyanov has his own blog where you are welcome to go post. Thirdly, not my problem.
Sometimes it seems to me that the Russians don't want to win. The only notable success they have is the Wagner group. And they're no longer allowed to recruit convicts. I guess there was just too much winning for Gerasimov.
Really? The Russians have been so successful that they have destroyed the best proxy NATO ever had, to the point that it is only the constant flow of money and weapons from NATO countries that is keeping Ukraine afloat and you call that losing? Afraid of winning? Ukraine is reduced to kidnapping random people off the streets to replenish their losses and Zelensky has to travel round Europe with his begging bowl and that is called #Winning?
No wonder you don’t understand what’s going on.
Posted by: Down South | Feb 15 2023 17:37 utc | 38
Ukrainian may have BEEN a dialect at one time but there seems to be an effort to make it a distinct language. I've noted Ukrainian has at leat two letters that differ from Russian .. Roman "і" for Cyrillic "и" and double dotted "і" for "й" And I noted that the Ukrainian spelling for Zaporozhia (Запорожжя) contains a double ж at the end that never happens in Russian
Generally dialects dont change actual letters or use radically different spellings, so Ukrainian may be attempting to evove into a separate language
Posted by: Callmelennie | Feb 15 2023 17:39 utc | 39
Ukrainian sources write :Because of Bankova's attempts to hold Bakhmut, Ukraine has lost the strike potential that had been assembled to attack in the north along the Svatovo-Kreminna line. The AFU is experiencing a shortage of ammunition and artillery equipment. Moreover, losses in manpower exceed the rate of mobilization (which, as we know, is comprehensive, i.e., "kidnapping" everyone and everywhere). As a result, Bakhmut may become the new Mariupol, where more than 3,000 people were captured by the Russian Federation.
And we are already beginning to see the preconditions for such a development — after the loss of Krasnaya Gora (which the AFU still denies, which is similar to the similar situation with Soledar), the situation for the Paraskovievka garrison has become sharply more difficult.
Fighting is already taking place in the village itself, roads are being shot through from it, and the Slavyansk-Bahmut highway has not only come under fire-control of the Russians, but has actually been cut off. At the same time, Russian forces have already entrenched themselves in the northern districts of the city. Fighting is also taking place in the direction of Berkhovka. There is an obvious desire to get closer to the highway through Khromovo and take it under fire control to complete the operational encirclement of Bakhmut. To the south of the city, there are battles near Krasnye, Stupochka, and in the direction of Chasov Yar. Fighting also continues in the southern and southeastern districts of the city, where some advance by Russian forces is also noted.
Meanwhile, The New York Times writes that the order for the volunteers to leave Bakhmut may be a prelude to the withdrawal of Ukrainian forces. The publication notes that the decision to close access to the city to volunteers indicates that the Ukrainian military cannot secure even areas of the city that had been considered relatively safe for several months, such as the areas on the western bank of the Bakhmutka River, which are further away from Russian artillery strikes.
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/33505
Posted by: Down South | Feb 15 2023 17:43 utc | 40
In 2017, Trump dropped "The Mother of All Bombs" in Afghanistan. What would be the response if Russia dropped a similar bomb on a large grouping of Ukraine soldiers? (Providing Russia knew there it was concentration of soldiers...not civilians.
Posted by: Ramsey Glissadevil | Feb 15 2023 17:45 utc | 41
As far as I can see Russia doesn’t do US style shock and awe, bomb the village to save it.
Posted by: Down South | Feb 15 2023 16:22 utc | 20
**********************************************
US/NATO style is to "DESTROY" a village in order to save it!" Gotta use up that dumb ordnance, to create more MICC profits made on selling new, improved "smart" ordnance!
Posted by: Garry Owen | Feb 15 2023 17:45 utc | 42
Callmelennie | Feb 15 2023 17:39 utc | 39
The "i" is part of their recent propaganda to seem more european and less Russian. Like the zelleennssskkyyyy or kyyiiivv spelling.
Posted by: rk | Feb 15 2023 17:48 utc | 43
to #1:
i dated a girl who was (former) ukie and spoke both ukrainian with her family and russian with her (former) russian roommate. definitely not the same language. side note: i have to wonder what it is about the combination of ukie and jew that results in pure smokeshows. see also: mila kunis.
for the record, i've never heard anyone call rubber bands "elastics" in my life. usually when anyone says "skillet" they specifically mean a cast iron frying pan. nor have i heard "yankee" from anyone under boomer age when "yank" does the job just fine.
Posted by: the pair | Feb 15 2023 17:49 utc | 44
Posted by: West of England Andy | Feb 15 2023 17:02 utc | 30
So many people I know have swallowed the MSM vomit about President Putin being “a thug, a bully, a dictator”. When I respond that matters have been, and are, guided by the Russian parliament and the President can’t just act on a whim, the comeback I get given is “What parliament? It’s a dictatorship, he’s a dictator”, at which point I have to bite my tongue, then take a sip of beer.
Andy, It’s a Sisyphean task you have there, but if your friends can read (and are willing to read), maybe this will make an impact. It’s the last paragraph of Putin’s opening statement to the Russian Security Council Meeting on Feb. 22, 2022, just 2 days before the SMO began. It’s clear Putin is not a dictator. Russian Security Council Meeting 22.02.2022
Therefore, I would like to suggest that we proceed as follows: first, I will give the floor to Mr Lavrov who is directly involved in the attempts to reach an agreement with Washington and Brussels, and with NATO, on security guarantees. Then I would like Mr Kozak to report on his findings concerning the talks on the implementation of the Minsk agreements. Then each of you will be able to speak. But at the end of the day, we must decide what we will do next and how we should proceed in view of the current situation and our assessment of these developments. [my emphasis]
Barmann, another beer for the indefatigable Andy, please!
Posted by: waynorinorway | Feb 15 2023 17:51 utc | 45
Pepe Escobar draws a direct line between Biden and NS2 terrorism:
"BIDEN CRIME FAMILY SPECIAL
Biden did not "mistrust the Germans", as Sy Hersh said.
Biden got kickbacks from Kolomoisky.
Burisma is Kolomoisky’s gas firm sitting on the Russian pipeline for Ukraine.
Hunter was paid MILLIONS from Burisma’s profits in sucking off Ukrainians.
Kickbacks to the Biden clan paid off nicely to Kolomoisky when Biden blew up the Nord Streams: COMPETING pipelines.
After the war is over Russian gas flows through Ukraine will resume.
And the Ukrainian/US gas trading mafia will handsomely profit. Again."
https://t.me/rocknrollgeopolitics/6232
Posted by: Et Tu | Feb 15 2023 17:51 utc | 46
The report of the Ukrainian defense minister Reznikovs firing appears to have been premature
❗️ Head of the Ukrainian Defense Ministry Oleksiy Reznikov, whose possible resignation was previously reported in the Verkhovna Rada, said in an interview with Reuters that President Volodymyr Zelensky asked him to remain in his post." Yes, this is my president's decision," Reznikov said, answering the agency's question about his plans to continue as Ukraine's defense minister.
Posted by: Norwegian | Feb 15 2023 17:54 utc | 47
@Revelo | Feb 15 2023 16:36 utc | 24
That's what I would call a dialect. :)
I was in a business project once. We were three Germans. One from northern Germany (who spoke Plattdeutsch (flat German, a dialect)), one from Bavaria who spoke Bavarian and me. The other two guys could not understand each other and had to use me as a translator. But both spoke German.
In another project was one Guy from UK and one from the US. They could not understand each other. But both of them spoke English.
Therefore: If Ukrainians and Russians can speak their mother tongue and understand each other, then they speak the same language. Even if some freaks tell you otherwise.
Posted by: Tuk | Feb 15 2023 17:54 utc | 48
Posted by: Down South | Feb 15 2023 17:37 utc | 38
You carefully removed the core of my question. Why do the Russians unsuccessfully attack the Ugledar fortress with 1500 civilians head on while not taking out Marinka where there are no civilians?
You're correct that I don't understand it. Neither does the Indian general, neither do any of Russian telegram channels.
But I'm happy you understand it!
Posted by: Zebra | Feb 15 2023 17:56 utc | 49
@Callmelennie | Feb 15 2023 17:39 utc | 39
I forgot to add that they also plan to stop using Cyrillic alphabet, it's not American
Posted by: rk | Feb 15 2023 18:00 utc | 50
Old hippie - you’ll appreciate this:
Nearly 40 years ago, on a job site in Southern California, I’m shocked by a team of Mexican painters speaking a bizarre mishmash of Yugoslav. Turned out the Boss was from Montenegro and hardly spoke English. Over the years, his Mexican employees learned enough to get along. BTW - He and his men were first rate Meistern
Posted by: Exile | Feb 15 2023 18:05 utc | 51
@ Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Feb 15 2023 17:37 utc | 37
There is an active movement to get Mayor John Tory not to follow through with his promised resignation. Last night on the News, many Members of Council spoke in support of him staying.
Apparently they are concerned that a "lefty" may win a new election.
Freeland will not be Mayor.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 15 2023 18:09 utc | 52
Garry Owen @42
US shock and awe is based on guderian blitzkreig.
Where they push thru and forego occupying and pacifying so the usa spends years doing falluja
Appears russia want to part of long insurgency in their oblasts
Posted by: paddy | Feb 15 2023 18:16 utc | 53
Et Tu @9
When one wonders why the collective West cannot keep up with Russian shell production, it might be apposite to check out Alexander Mercuris' current exposition on his site. Basic premise is something I've been long aware...it is that all levels of military production are in PRIVATE/corporate hands. That means that profit margin ist uber alles. Contrarily, Russian military production is mostly state-owned (or closely controlled) and that huge factories sit idle during peaceful times, but when military productiveness becomes an acute need, those plants and potential workers and engineers/technicians for them are already on the listings for redeployment into that sector.
Military production in capitalist regimes can only be effectuated with a huge industrial base coupled with a plenitude of tax dollars/Pounds/Euros, along with full wartime transfer of that industrial base and the personnel to man such facilities.
Posted by: aristodemos | Feb 15 2023 18:17 utc | 54
@ 52 Opport Knocks
Thanks for the update, I haven’t followed that closely. In times of uncertainty and speculation about some pressing Canadian topic like this, I can only turn to satirical news outlet, The Beaverton. Reporting from Toronto— “Algorithm scrambles to get woman perfect, last-minute Valentine’s Day gift”
https://twitter.com/TheBeaverton/status/1625276368291520513
Anyway, let’s see what tomorrow brings!
Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Feb 15 2023 18:18 utc | 55
Posted by: Zebra | Feb 15 2023 17:56 utc | 49
You assume there is no civilians I’m not part of the Russian GS but it stands to reason that each assault on each city will be tailored to circumstance. Simply because you don’t understand their tactics or the choice there of doesn’t mean they are wrong. Incorrect tactics can only be ascribed should they fail to take the city. Nowhere near there.
You're correct that I don't understand it. Neither does the Indian general, neither do any of Russian telegram channels.What a joke! Only a registered moron thinks kidnapping random people off the streeets to replenish your losses or going to other capitals with you begging bowl taking whatever obsolete scrap they decide to throw at you is a sign of #Winning!
But I'm happy you understand it!Not all of it but just enough to know what winning doesn’t look like
https://twitter.com/defnotfsb/status/1625877490236379136
https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1623333827618693120
https://twitter.com/JohnEdgarCarter/status/1625902277260193809
https://twitter.com/Quotment/status/1625809478279999488
https://twitter.com/DoctorGerhard/status/1624283151865372674
Posted by: Down South | Feb 15 2023 18:20 utc | 56
... Biden got kickbacks from Kolomoisky....Posted by: Et Tu | Feb 15 2023 17:51 utc | 46
LOL... someone must have hacked Escobar's account or he too is dipped in Colombian powder.
The US State Department sanctioned Kolomoisky (for corruption and undermining "democracy") in 2021. Kolomoisky paid for Zelensky's election to get rid of Poroshenko, who was Biden/Nuland's point man in Ukraine (see Wikileaks). Zelensky wanted to co-operate with Trump's investigation of Biden family corruption, but was thwarted by the US loyalists in the Ukrainian Prosecutors office.
Kolomoisky is wanted on criminal charges in Ukraine.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 15 2023 18:21 utc | 57
Zebra@28
So far as I'm aware, the Z-Bra is the largest size they make.
Posted by: aristodemos | Feb 15 2023 18:25 utc | 58
#22
This is so true!
I was always an independent until Clinton 1st term I ran a huge function for the campaign in my state. What did me in was having the clinton staff sit down all of us my staff and tell us in no uncertain terms, “do not go to the bus with him, do not meet him at a bar. At that point all the runners were confirmed. Back to independent. Till I was asked to work running the campaign office for the Obama Campaign I was suspicious of barry as what we were told was a bit to good to be true and in the end I refused to vote for him, I was with a group at the time that would vote weekly on which candidate we would vote for, funny thing obama was never #1.
This was the beginning of the end of liberal movements. I watched as the obama campaign lied it’s way through 8 years on every liberal issue. From social justice,environment,war, law, funding, economics. I watched every organization become corrupt from Sierra club 350 WWF HRW(they may have been from the get go) Unions and on and on. The groups I was involved in ant war and Climate became non functional because everything had to revolve around skin color or who you were screwing. The movements fell apart I have no doubt it was planned by the cia fbi. It was to broad and to successful. Really their are no groups anymore. Chris Hedges was told by code pink that he and Media should not speak at the up coming protest, because their were conservatives they do not like!
Posted by: Susan | Feb 15 2023 18:34 utc | 59
The OSCE approach to resolving conflict in Europe has been replaced with the NATO/EU approach. If Finland, the HQ of the OSCE, succeeds in getting into NATO or provides Leopard tanks to Ukraine it must signal the death of the neutrality/OSCE approach, some of which was agreed upon by allies in WW2.
Posted by: Mike Price | Feb 15 2023 18:34 utc | 60
@ Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Feb 15 2023 18:18 utc | 55
The real scandal is not that Tory was sleeping with a very young junior staffer, it was:
a) She, rather than more senior and qualified staff went on extended foreign business trips at taxpayers expense.
b) His attempt to have the problem "go away", involved getting her (Emily Hillstrom) a new job with Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, which is partly owned by Rogers, which Tory has a long time connection to.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 15 2023 18:34 utc | 61
Paul Greenwood @34
So in other words the Ukie dialect is both Polaxed and Czechmated.
Posted by: aristodemos | Feb 15 2023 18:34 utc | 62
Prigozhin, the founder of the Wagner private military company, told what problems his fighters have to face during the liberation of Bakhmut and in general. The main reason for the protracted battles for this city lies in the obstacles from the military bureaucracy.
Before the new year, we would have taken Bakhmut, if it weren't for our monstrous military bureaucracy, let's say, and not for the sticks in the wheels that are being put in every day."
Prigozhin drew attention to the structural changes in the Wagner PMC in connection with the suspension of the reception of prisoners "who previously performed heroic tasks." Over time, the number of fighters in PMCs will decrease
He called for the proper use of time to develop offensives in other sectors of the front, while the Wagner PMC diverts significant forces of the Ukrainian Armed Forces to Bakhmut
Posted by: rk | Feb 15 2023 18:39 utc | 63
Old Hippie @35
As Chi-town and burbs has long been an ethnic hodgepodge, if one would consider the blend, say ca 1940, my top listing for the Big Five would be Irish, German, Polish, Swedish and Italian. Am I far off in that assessment?
Posted by: aristodemos | Feb 15 2023 18:43 utc | 64
Down South @38
Kudos: You have argued your case in a masterful manner. Numerous attorneys would be envious.
Posted by: aristodemos | Feb 15 2023 18:46 utc | 65
Posted by: Down South | Feb 15 2023 18:20 utc | 56
You attack straw men again. My team is winning, my team is Wagner PMC. I even have the T-shirt.
Unfortunately they're almost alone. Their Chechen partners do good work in the North and their partners in DPR hold the front in the south. Their "partners" in Moscow try to castrate them, probably because they take the glory away from Kremlin (sure, Prigozhin is a little bit high on himself these days).
I admit that the Gerasimov doctrine of avoiding contact with the enemy has worked. Keep hundreds of thousands of the Russian armed forces far away from the front line and let Wagner, Chechens and L/DPR forces do the dirty work. And when it all comes crumbling down, call in General Armageddon. When he has pulled back the forces, bombed critical infrastructure and generally fixed the situation, retake the control and, and .... do nothing.
Maybe Moscow could at least provide the fighting forces with drones so that they don't have to rely on civilians buying them from China? Maybe provide some communication means so they don't have to put the tanks in a close convoy when they attack Ugledar?
It may be that Gerasimov is a genius. But he better show it this spring. Everyone is impressed by Wagner. No one is impressed by the Russian general staff.
Posted by: Zebra | Feb 15 2023 18:49 utc | 66
@karlof1 32
thx!
sitting put waiting eagerly for your follow-up.
Posted by: AG | Feb 15 2023 18:49 utc | 67
Slightly of-topic, but this is monumental, an admission from Nato head Stoltenburg that this war began in 2014, and Nato has been involved since then.
This quote is telling: "We decided the battlegroups in 2016. And we actually increased our presence also in the months ahead of the invasion because the invasion was no surprise"
I'm pasting the entire post from too scents, it is at the end of the previous thread:
====================
Stoltenburg, speaking for NATO, said yesterday that the war in Ukraine began in 2014.
Lorne Cook, AP: The Associated Press. The war is coming up to virtually it's one year mark, and I wonder if you have any thoughts on how that's changed NATO and in particular your job, and is this a job that you want to keep doing as we come into the next summit in Vilnius.NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg:
In one way, it has not changed NATO. It has just demonstrated the importance of NATO and how important it has been. Actually since 2014, NATO has implemented the biggest reinforcements of collective defense in a generation, because the war didn't start in February last year. It started in 2014. And that triggered a big adaptation of our Alliance with higher readiness of forces, with more presence in eastern part of the Alliance, with more exercises.And also, for the first time in many, many years, all Allies started to increase defense spending. So fundamentally, it hasn't changed NATO. It has only demonstrated the importance of Allies standing together, both in providing support to Ukraine, but also in protecting each other, ensuring that the war doesn't escalate beyond Ukraine. And when we decided on the morning of the invasion to increase our presence, then we were able to build on the increased presence we have already implemented over the last years.
We decided the battlegroups in 2016. And we actually increased our presence also in the months ahead of the invasion because the invasion was no surprise. This was an invasion we knew was coming and therefore we were prepared when it happened. For me, it is extremely important to focus on my task as Secretary General in demanding and challenging times for the Alliance and that's what I have to say about that.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_211689.htm
video ==> https://youtu.be/Cyy1gPk_8rg
Posted by: too scents | Feb 15 2023 10:57 utc | 154
Posted by: jonku | Feb 15 2023 18:55 utc | 68
waynorinnorway @45
Do please inform the bartender that Andy might well prefer some real ale (O/l) ved Norsk rather than that pisswater Pils I had to drink in an Oslo bar back in 79. The Canuckistanis up in New Brunswick do proffer a decent pils though, it's called Moosehead and its more truly a light lager than a pils.It has been brewing since the year of Canadian statehood back in '67...eighteen, that is. Nice cut to it, but not extreme like the IPA's. Seeing we are at the bar, there's no need for this to be considered off-topic.
Posted by: aristodemos | Feb 15 2023 18:56 utc | 69
@Sektion2B (12) "NAFO's "style" is based on air supperiority, which clearly is not applicable in the case in Ukraine. Ergo, they have to rely (mostly) on ammo instead. Artillery fire is Russia's maim asset at the moment. Perhaps, if RF destroy 90% of Ukrainian AD we'll see a different scenario in the skies.
If the war does become a battle for air superiority, NATO may well find itself on the losing end there as well. Russia's air defenses are second to none. I wonder if the western mainstream media would even report all of the NATO/US planes and missiles shot down by Russian planes and missiles.
Posted by: Rob | Feb 15 2023 18:58 utc | 70
And as Stoltenburg says "the war didn't start in February last year. It started in 2014"
So who started it? Certainly not Russia!
Posted by: jonku | Feb 15 2023 18:58 utc | 71
Tuk @48
So. Wohin aus Deutschland haben Sie gekommen?
Posted by: aristodemos | Feb 15 2023 18:59 utc | 72
If she’s not interested in NATO, perhaps she’ll take the mayor of Toronto?
Posted by: Bruised Northerner
Where she can do the least damage?
Posted by: Drinky Crow | Feb 15 2023 19:01 utc | 73
@Down South 56
don´t get me wrong (I eagerly read all your posts), but this, as awful as it looks, *could* (not saying *is*) be staged.
The reason why I personally am watching no videos about this war. I cannot assess authenticity.
(videos #1 and #3 of above are the same incident of course.)
strange, police lets people film. (But I only know Germany. Here they would most likely threaten if they saw you film.)
But I guess I am the only one having such doubts in today´s visual environment.
Still thx. As for all the information you provide!
Posted by: AG | Feb 15 2023 19:03 utc | 74
The Ukrainian "language" is the result of taking the Galician dialet of Russian (Galicia = southeast Poland, northwest Ukraine, some Belorussia) and deliberately changing some vocabulary and linguistic rules to BE supposedly "different". For instance, I have and can read and understand many publications from early 1800s to World War 1 that use some local vocabulary but are otherwise understandable. The best example is the Carpatho-Russian region of farthest west Ukraine (hence even farther away than Galicia), which was stolen by Stalin from Czechoslovakia in 1945. The people there have for centuries considered themselves Russian and dreamed of some day joining Russia. The local language is sufficiently different that some stupid academic might pretend they are a separate nationality, but history says otherwise. First Austro-Hungarian dictatorship, then Czech government meddling, then Hungarian and Nazi dictatorship in World War II, then Soviet dictatorship, then Ukrainian government repression since 1991 have imposed enormous pressure on the Carpatho-Russians to quit identifying as Russian, but miraculously they withstand it.
Much of what people believe about Ukrainian as a separate language is pure propaganda.
Posted by: observer | Feb 15 2023 19:04 utc | 75
@Petri Krohn | Feb 15 2023 16:06 utc | 16
Ukraine is not a nation. It is a racist theory about the inferiority of the Russian people.
Ursula von der Leyen confirms what I wrote above.
Ursula von der Leyen: "Ukraine is a nation defined not only by its history and heritage. This is a nation defined by its dreams, and Europe is one of those dreams. So, dear members, let's honor these dreams by defending Ukraine for as long as it takes. So that one day representatives of the Ukrainian people will take their place in this very semi-cycle. Long live Europe. glory to Ukraine!"
European values and European dreams are just another manifestation of the same racist Russophobia, that also defines Nazism and "Ukraine".
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 15 2023 19:08 utc | 76
Here's the latest update from Poddubny about Paraskoviyevka:
The situation is complicated, I saw it with my own eyes. The initiative is on the side of the "musicians", but it is premature to say that the enemy has accepted the impending defeat. The command of the Armed Forces of Ukraine acts skilfully in this direction, the management of units does not" float " even in a difficult situation. Our guys overplay on experience and legs, on speed. But here's the detail: Slavyansk-Artemovsk highway near Krasnaya Gora under the fire control of the orchestra. And the enemy is already piling up a new road through the fields, in order to provide transportation both to Artemovsk and to the outskirts. The artillery of the Kiev regime is constantly working both on the front edge and on the nearby rear. The fighters of the PMC "Wagner" do not have a lot of ammunition. And this, of course, is very bad. The most tense situation right now is in Artemovsk, and we need to put aside the difficulties of interaction and personal ambitions for the overall result. The enemy group is 40-50 thousand strong. That's a lot. Units of the regime are fighting for every house, fighting stubbornly and with a twinkle. Just like in the movie "Best in Hell". Paraskoviyevka is not surrounded, our forces have only managed to take fire control of the supply and evacuation routes. The enemy does not leave and does not think, fights for every meter. In general, pride takes over our people, they fight beautifully, they beat the enemy with their ability.
Why on earth should Wagner have to take on these 40-50000 troops alone while Putin prepares a party for 200000 participants?
Posted by: Zebra | Feb 15 2023 19:09 utc | 77
@Down South (56)
I wish that we could see the patches on the uniforms worn by the soldiers in those abduction videos. My bet is that some of them are neo-Nazi insignias.
Posted by: Rob | Feb 15 2023 19:13 utc | 78
@observer | Feb 15 2023 19:04 utc | 75
Much of what people believe about Ukrainian as a separate language is pure propaganda.
If Ukrainian was a separate language, then it would have a huge corpus of translated literature. This did not exist before Maidan and the recent book burnings. Most people simply chose to read in Russian. The Ukrainian internet was mainly Russian-speaking until Zelensky's time.
Nationalists will say this was because of "Russian imperialism" and "oppression". The opposite may be true. The Soviet Union tried to promote the use of Ukrainian, often against the will of the people.
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 15 2023 19:17 utc | 79
American journalist Seymour Hersh, who published an article about US involvement in the Nord Stream explosions, said that this was "only the first stage" and urged everyone to "stay tuned.
Perhaps they'll epsteinize Hersh?
Posted by: Sektion2B | Feb 15 2023 19:21 utc | 80
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 15 2023 19:08 utc | 76
Ursula VDL looks more like Magda Goebbels every day.
Posted by: unimperator | Feb 15 2023 19:26 utc | 81
@ Posted by: aristodemos | Feb 15 2023 18:17 utc | 54
LOL scrolled to revisit chat here while i was watching it now.
My ADHD requires my brain to find something else to do even as he waffles at 1.5 times speed hahaha
But yeah, no surprise to me, but good to hear the details on it.
JIT was all the rage when i was studying at University... having grown up on a farm, i ever saw the wisdom in that sort of thinking myself ;).
What most term as a 'rainy day' usually came in the form of a rainless season to us.
Posted by: Et Tu | Feb 15 2023 19:32 utc | 82
Posted by: Zebra | Feb 15 2023 18:49 utc | 66
Guns cannot be covering two fronts, whilst the Ukrainians were high-diving over a FASCAM ‘ambush’ and firing thousands of precious rounds to stop a BTG, but allowing most of it’s personnel and, according to some reports, most of it’s armoured element to escape, the pincers close on Bakhmut.
So, in the profit column: a valuable PR victory, the halting of a modestly supported assault and the destruction of easily replaced machines and losses of 2 companies worth of troops.
In the loss column: at least 7 tubes, three ammo dumps of precious ammo, 2-3 brigades seriously attrited, reinforcements deployed and now fixed and the accelerated collapse of the Bakhmut pocket, with 12-60,000 at risk of encirclement.
Even if the profit column has been significantly undercounted the engagement was a tactical loss for Russia but an operational and perhaps strategic loss to Ukraine. In fact, given the continued attacks on Ugledar, it’s more a setback than a loss for Russia.
Posted by: Milites | Feb 15 2023 19:34 utc | 83
Following up his interview with Indian Army Lieut General Shankar yesterday Helmer has a very useful piece to day by a NATO expert assessing the situation in Ukraine. Among much else he discusses the Balloon Hysteria:
"...Imagine from the military point of view, if the enemy decided to launch a swarm of a thousand weather balloons, or 5,000 party balloons, from the Sea of Okhotsk – the US defence capacity would be paralyzed, and [President] Biden and [Prime Minister] Trudeau would have shown themselves up to be asses. The US media haven’t caught on to this yet, but you can be sure the Russians and the Chinese have. I suppose Chancellor Scholz and President Macron have ordered up top-secret maps and plans for what would happen to their defences if the Siberian east to westward winds which once carried Chernobyl radiation, and regularly carry Siberian cold snaps, delivered swarms of balloons. A Maginot Line fantasy in the sky..."
http://johnhelmer.net/nato-military-veteran-comments-on-indian-army-general-shankar/#more-70708
Posted by: bevin | Feb 15 2023 19:39 utc | 84
Posted by: Zebra | Feb 15 2023 18:49 utc | 66
You attack straw men again. My team is winning, my team is Wagner PMC. I even have the T-shirt.
Sure you do!
Unfortunately they're almost alone.I can almost hear the violin. Firstly, the only major attack they carried out on their own was Soledar. Secondly, Wagner is 50,000 strong in Ukraine. They’re not some mom and pop outfit.
Their Chechen partners do good work in the North and their partners in DPR hold the front in the south.Agree
Their "partners" in Moscow try to castrate them, probably because they take the glory away from Kremlin (sure, Prigozhin is a little bit high on himself these days).Utter bullshit!
I admit that the Gerasimov doctrine of avoiding contact with the enemy has worked. Keep hundreds of thousands of the Russian armed forces far away from the front line and let Wagner, Chechens and L/DPR forces do the dirty work. And when it all comes crumbling down, call in General Armageddon. When he has pulled back the forces, bombed critical infrastructure and generally fixed the situation, retake the control and, and .... do nothing.That’s why as I showed above Ukraine is #Winning!
Maybe Moscow could at least provide the fighting forces with drones so that they don't have to rely on civilians buying them from China?it doesn’t matter where they get them from as long as they do the job. Take for example the drones from Iran that the Russians are using. They can punch so many holes in the Iron Dome they would have to change the name to the Iron Colander
Maybe provide some communication means so they don't have to put the tanks in a close convoy when they attack Ugledar?It was poor tactics not poor communication equipment that led to the tanks being bunched up.
It may be that Gerasimov is a genius. But he better show it this spring. Everyone is impressed by Wagner. No one is impressed by the Russian general staff.
You really are clueless. Don’t take it from me:
I grew up on Russian military doctrine and still believe that all military science is in Russia. I studied with Gerasimov. I read everything he ever wrote. He is the smartest of people, and my expectations from him were huge," said Zaluzhny.
Posted by: Down South | Feb 15 2023 19:42 utc | 85
This.
Western diplomacy is immature and incapable of dialogue
https://www.rt.com/india/571464-interview-russian-ambassador-india/
It is. (as you all know)
Governing officials in the Western world are products of the corporate cut throat culture of hostile takeover. Period.
There is no room/headspace/awareness for co-existence. Only ever the elimination of competition.
We are witnessing the endgame stage of capitalism as the social experiment that it is/was.
When resources were plentiful, capitalism thrived (for capitalists, as it was designed to).
Now, we are watching them eat their own.
And they will take us all down with them.
I cry for/honour the lives of all those in the immediate way right now.
I look forward to a multipolar world when it's all over.
In the meantime, I'm readying the land to plant my crops, and the chickens are beginning to lay again.
"Another world is possible...on a quiet day, I can hear her coming."
Posted by: Irish | Feb 15 2023 19:45 utc | 86
@ Posted by: aristodemos | Feb 15 2023 18:59 utc | 72
North-Rhine Westfalia. In the west of Germany somewhere in the corner of the Netherlands and Belgium. But I grew up in the East.
Posted by: Tuk | Feb 15 2023 19:45 utc | 87
Where she (Freeland) can do the least damage?Posted by: Drinky Crow | Feb 15 2023 19:01 utc | 73
She can do the most damage to NATO, so take her... please!!!
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 15 2023 19:49 utc | 88
don´t get me wrong (I eagerly read all your posts), but this, as awful as it looks, *could* (not saying *is*) be staged.
Posted by: AG | Feb 15 2023 19:03 utc | 74
I hear you. I also follow Ukrainian TG. They cover these sbduction videos too.
Our insight is once again confirmed. The military commissar is a corruption loophole for the rich and "their own" who are not fools to go to die on the front.
It turned out that those military commissars who yesterday tightly packed the guy in Odessa are a corrupt official and a murderer. Such a good patriotic set.According to our data, they should now be demonstratively sent to the front, but the “daddy” is trying to solve it, because he understands that now the RF Armed Forces are preparing a massive offensive, which by 99% means that his children will either die or be captured.
https://t.me/legitimniy/14787
Employees of the Odessa TCC, who violated the law when “delivering subpoenas”, were brought to justice.While disciplinary.
But, dashing trouble is the beginning! There will be criminal!
If you see how a person is beaten, knitted, taken away by force or stuffed into a transport by employees of the TCC - do not pass by! Take it on your phone!
This will help the recruit in court to prove the illegality of such actions of the TCC and the legality of his own!
Together we are able to stop this mobilization lawlessness. TCKshniki should know that their actions are being monitored by the entire PEOPLE.
https://t.me/legitimniy/14783
Posted by: Down South | Feb 15 2023 19:51 utc | 89
Perhaps they'll epsteinize Hersh?Posted by: Sektion2B | Feb 15 2023 19:21 utc | 80
Nah, certain deep state factions want you to believe he is not a limited hangout or controlled opposition.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 15 2023 19:52 utc | 90
The NYT article was picked up by Raw Story, but apparently (in mid-sentence) the NTY's jerked away from RS. Anyway, I picked it up at Microsoft Start News.
The New York Times reported today on the newly revealed memos saying warning five years prior to the annexation of Crimea, Russia was ready to pounce.
The memo concludes that their “strategy of personal diplomacy met with early success” but after Russia invaded the Soviet republic of Georgia in 2008 the relationship with the U.S. was not well.
[ And WHY did Russia enter Georgia? Could it have something to do with Bush's declaration in 2008 that Georgia and Ukraine would become a part of the NATO bloc, you think?]
“Russia attempts to challenge the territorial integrity of Ukraine, particularly in Crimea, which is 59 percent ethnically Russian and is home to the Russian Navy’s Black Sea Fleet, must be prevented,” the memo said.
[I think that that sentence alone is a great argument for why Crimea should, and did, become territory of the RF.]
Thirteen years later, it's precisely what has happened. What Russian President Vladimir Putin didn't seem to count on was just how badly equipped his military was and how willing the Europeans were to fight to preserve the NATO alliance with the United States.
[overlooking the obligatory swipe at the Russian MOD, and the lies about Minsk 1&2, which gave both NATO and Russia time to strengthen their military, how does the NYTs (and the Bush / Obama / Biden Administrations) justify a long bloody and destructive war over a natural Ukraine, living in peace with its neighbors. This is a subject that will be discussed by historians for centuries to come: Why was Ukraine and Georgia so important to the machinations of the US and NATO, that hundreds of thousands had to die for it?]
Posted by: Ed | Feb 15 2023 19:53 utc | 91
Posted by: aristodemos | Feb 15 2023 18:56 utc | 69
'waynorinnorway @45'
Why should you always copy and paste the entire name/date/time line like I just did?
- So you don't misspell someone's moniker like you just did is good enough reason.
(But I'm a tough guy and can handle it. ;)
A more important reason, as has been mentioned repeatedly, is that if b deletes posts
the post numbers become meaningless but the time/stamp remains an accurate reference. Cheers!
Posted by: waynorinorway | Feb 15 2023 19:58 utc | 92
aristodemos @ 64
Hard for me to speak authoritatively about 1950 as I was not alive yet. But you are close. My father was pure 2-1/2 generation Swedish, I would say Swedes are at best at the end of your list, maybe another step down. But you are close. European migrants kept coming after war and after 1950. Do not neglect black migration from South. Then it was Mexicans. Now Central America. Also, at least in my world, a lot of Jews. Hardly as many as NYC but still a lot. Most used to self report as Russian Jews, same people are now Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Polish, German.
Those from East Europe are totally unreliable for self reporting. I was taught chess, sherry, single malt by a German baron. He lived here as a German baron and mathematician roughly from 1957 to 1990. At which time his daughter visited the barony in Sudetenland and discovered her father was a Ukrainian Jew. So was mom. By 1990 he was too old for anyone to bother. As with every other Chicagoan I have known at least a hundred heroes of the Polish Air Force who flew out of London during the war.
Posted by: oldhippie | Feb 15 2023 20:05 utc | 93
European values and European dreams are just another manifestation of the same racist Russophobia, that also defines Nazism and "Ukraine".
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 15 2023 19:08 utc | 76
-----------------------------
Just remember that Hitler also had a dream.
Posted by: Ed | Feb 15 2023 20:06 utc | 94
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 15 2023 15:36 utc | 10
In addition language is not that useful a marker. Azov, for example, uses Russian as its working language and other such groups also. And I gather Russian was the language used in all the large Ukrainian cities except Lvov.
Posted by: Down South | Feb 15 2023 16:22 utc | 20
So Russia can easily drop several thermobaric bombs on Ugledar and wipe out the UAF but they would have also killed at least 1400 civilians. As far as I can see Russia doesn’t do US style shock and awe, bomb the village to save it.
I wish this point were made more often. From what I heard of the earlier SMO it often resembled more a hostage release operation than a full scale war.
Posted by: English Outsider | Feb 15 2023 20:08 utc | 95
Down South | Feb 15 2023 16:22 utc | 20
As far as I can see Russia doesn’t do US style shock and awe, bomb the village to save it.
Thanks, Down South. This must be repeated here ad nauseum. Russia understands Western insanity -- expecting success from continuing to do, over and over again, what has repeatedly failed. Maybe this could be addressed in a lead 'sticky-post' common to many forums:
"Please read this basic information about Russian culture, morality, strategy, military doctrine, tactics, and operations first (before posting stupid comments and questions that are asked-and-answered daily on every thread)."
Posted by: Doug Hillman | Feb 15 2023 20:22 utc | 96
Why is anyone debating with Zebra. He is clearly Zanon under a new name. Same stupid arguments as before, pretending to support the Russian side, but concern trolling about why they aren't doing a better job.
I am surprised I have to point that out to this generally astute audience.
Can we quit with the discussion about what is and isn't a language? It is distracting, stupid, and pointless.
Posted by: David F | Feb 15 2023 20:29 utc | 98
A little concerning seeing how many are willing to weigh in authoritatively on the differences and similarities between Russian and Ukrainian but with drastically different answers. I don't know that I'm any closer to an understanding than perhaps an amalgamation of what Brother Ma and Revelo have said.
BELOW IS A RE-POST (GLAD I MADE A COPY) OF A PREVIOUS POST THAT WAS DISAPPEARED BY MoA'S SOFTWARE. I HAVE ADDED SPACES TO THE LINKS BECAUSE I BELIEVE THEY ARE WHAT CAUSED THE COMMENT TO BE REJECTED.
Today I decided to try looking for some history on the pre-2022 SMO years using Google translate and Yandex. Using Google for both is a fool's errand. They have SEO'd and otherwise buried/hidden any information that countervails the official/accepted narrative(s). What I've been doing is translating a search phrase into Russian using Google, then searching in Yandex and using my browser's (either Firefox or Chrome) translate feature (which in the case of Chrome is back to Google, Firefox I'm unsure) to read the articles that result. I've gotta say the difference is eye opening as is the volume.
One example search started with "Russian language purged Ukraine" into Google translate which resulted in "чистка русского языка в украине" and then searching at Yandex.
ht t ps:/ /lent a.r u/n ews/2023/02/14/20millionov/ - On the de-Russification of (public) libraries
Many articles on that video Arestovich put out a few weeks ago regarding his (correct) comments that associating Russian language with that of "the aggressor" is faulty logic.
ht tp s:/ /ria. r u/20220610/yazyk-1790620757.ht ml - A general history of the language disputes dating to the Maidan coup (machine translation below):
War ahead of the curve: how the Russian language was destroyed in UkraineFor millions of people in Ukraine, the language of Pushkin and Tolstoy is their native language. The right to speak and read Russian in Nezalezhnaya is infringed at the legislative level. The Ukrainian authorities ousted the Russian language strategically, ahead of the adoption of regulations.
Repeal of the law on language policy
Open persecution of the Russian language began more than eight years ago. On February 23, 2014, immediately after the Euromaidan, the overthrow of President Viktor Yanukovych and the opposition coming to power, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine voted to repeal the law "On the Fundamentals of the State Language Policy", which had been in force since August 10, 2012. It provided a special status for the Russian language in those regions where it was spoken by at least 10% of the population.
The intentions of the deputies caused a wave of protests in the East of Ukraine, where mainly those who consider Russian native live. Then the new Ukrainian government suspended the solution of the issue, acting. President Oleksandr Turchynov vetoed the bill. Since 2016, the law "On the Fundamentals of the State Language Policy" has been under consideration by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine. On February 28, 2018, the Constitutional Court recognized it as inconsistent with the Basic Law of the country.
After this decision, the language issue was actually regulated only by Art. 10 of the Constitution of Ukraine. That is, at that time it was recognized that Ukrainian was the only state language, but the free development, use and protection of Russian and other minority languages was guaranteed.
Language quotas on radio
On June 16, 2016, the Verkhovna Rada adopted amendments to the law "On Television and Radio Broadcasting" (which entered into force on November 8, 2016), which established language quotas for radio. From that moment on, the broadcast became 60 percent or more Ukrainian.
In addition, in accordance with the law, at least 35% of the songs on the radio were compositions in Ukrainian, but if the air of the radio station was more than 60% filled with songs in the languages of the European Union, then the "Ukrainian quota" was reduced to 25%. Ukrainian musicians were given the entire prime time: from 07:00 to 14:00 and from 15:00 to 22:00.It would seem, what's wrong with supporting domestic performers? But the main goal of these innovations was not the promotion of Ukrainian songs, but the removal of works in Russian from the air.
Thus, Vyacheslav Kirilenko, Deputy Prime Minister for Humanitarian Affairs and Minister of Culture of Ukraine, said in 2016:
"In Ukraine, there are domestic FM stations without songs in the Ukrainian language at all. If such a profanity, then the law must be changed and licenses taken away. And immediately."
At the same time, a group of Ukrainian musicians turned to Petro Poroshenko with a demand to close the airwaves for video and audio production from Russia. In their opinion, all Russian media products carry an element of propaganda: either the exaltation of Russian troops, or the ideas of the Russian world.The most famous of the signatories was Oleg Skrypka, the leader of the Voply Vidoplyasova group:
“Ukrainians urgently need to learn to resist Russian cultural colonialism. I’m sure there are structures that deliberately destroy the Ukrainian language in Ukraine. I don’t know what these structures are, but their activities have led to the fact that our society is much more willing to swallow “louboutins” with obscenities in Russian than the song "Sichove Viysko", while we have a war in the east. This is not normal. And this is just a small example to show why the country is now in decline."TV language quotas
Then came to television. At the initiative of President Petro Poroshenko, on May 23, 2017, the Ukrainian Rada adopted the law "On Television and Radio Broadcasting". Now the minimum share of broadcasting in Ukrainian on national and regional television and radio has increased to 75%, on local - up to 60% (between 07:00 and 18:00, 18:00 and 22:00).
The share of TV news programs in Ukrainian has increased to 75%, and for those who do not comply with the norm, a fine of 5% of the total license fee has been introduced.All companies that broadcast in the languages of national minorities had to provide at least 30% of the airtime in Ukrainian.
The law obliged national TV channels to broadcast foreign films and programs only in Ukrainian, and programs and films created before August 1, 1991 - with subtitles in Ukrainian.
The ban on the Russian language in the field of educationOn September 5, 2017, the Rada adopted a new edition of the law "On Education", which came into force three weeks later. The document provided for a phased ban on the Russian language in teaching. Lessons in schools and classes in higher educational institutions now had to be held exclusively in Ukrainian. The law established that as early as 2018, classes teaching subjects in Russian were preserved only in elementary schools, and from September 1, 2020, education in Russian should be completely eradicated.
Other languages also fell into disgrace, although they received a large “respite”. From September 1, 2023, schools were supposed to switch to the Ukrainian language, where they taught children who speak the languages of the EU countries.
[....several more examples of similar policies in other areas...]
Whistleblowing and fines
In Ukraine, there is a special official who is obliged to monitor the introduction of the Ukrainian language into all spheres of life. He is appointed by the government and is called the "Language Ombudsman".
"Defender of Ukrainian" monitors the implementation of the legislation on the state language, and also considers complaints against those who do not comply with the law. It is allowed to complain about both legal entities and individuals.
In addition, the Ombudsman is required to report to the authorities on investigations and prosecution of perpetrators.On November 27, 2019, Tatyana Monakhova was appointed to this post. However, on April 24, 2020, she resigned due to a lack of "proper funding" for her activities. On July 8 of the same year,
Taras Kremin was appointed the new commissioner.In 2021, Kremin advised citizens of Ukraine who do not like his position and the law on "total Ukrainization" ("On Ensuring the Functioning of the Ukrainian Language as a State Language" - ed.), to go to Russia. He stated this in an interview with one of the Ukrainian TV channels. He posted a video recording of the broadcast on August 6 on his Facebook page * (The activities of Meta - the social networks Facebook and Instagram - are banned in Russia as extremist).
“Therefore, whoever is not satisfied with the presence of a commissioner for the protection of the state language, the language law, who is not satisfied with the Ukrainian state, formulate all this before you are sent to other countries where, in your opinion, you will feel comfortable.”Also, the language ombudsman demanded that dissatisfied citizens respect the Ukrainian people, "who for centuries fought for their right to independence and continues today to fight the occupier at the front in the east of the country."
For non-compliance with the norms of the language law, from July 16, 2022, they will be punished with a fine in the amount of 3,400 to 11,900 hryvnias.
From 2024, various penalties will be applied for "public humiliation or insult to the state language." The perpetrators will be fined a large amount or sentenced to arrest for up to six months or imprisonment for up to three years. The very wording of this offense is so streamlined and vague that now it can be applied in almost any situation when someone decides to speak in their native Russian, native Romanian or native Hungarian.
One seriously wonders how much of the $5bn in "aid" that Vicky Nuland has bragged about went to funding these programs and other more street-level/violent ones.
Some more details: ht tp s:/ /dzen. r u/a/YqP7uILPgXvJgyiC
So while the genocide has been occurring in the east, there has been a concerted ethno-cultural genocide taking place throughout western Ukraine as well. I cannot help but think that the main reason for this - from the Atlanticist perspective - was to thoroughly 'cleanse' the mind and collective consciousness of the Russian cultural roots, values and language/arts in Ukraine to 'grease the skids' for its entry into NATO, and then the EU (as we all know the former now supersedes the latter).
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Feb 15 2023 20:31 utc | 99
In response to Callmelennie@39,
It's a complicated and controversial topic. The creation of a separate language was a cornerstone for the creation of a separate cultural identity, as envisioned and described by proto-Ukrainian nationalists during the final century of the Russian empire.
Presumably, it could have been an organic response to pan-Slavic ideas that enjoyed a certain degree of popularity and, considering the extent of Slavic populations living under the umbrella of the Russian Empire, had a strong material basis. At the same time, one shouldn't exclude the factor of foreign sponsorship as a prime driving force for the development of separatist destabilization on the Russian periphery.
Although the theoretical groundwork for a separate Ukrainian identity was sufficiently well-developed, practical and experimental application was never more than partially successful, even though parallel political events in Russia and the world at large created a maximally favorable platform. The problem both then, and now, is that the emergence of a synthetic amalgamation of several organically developed ethnic groups, all of which can attribute their ancestry to an existing government structure or, if not, a recognized culture, isn't very attractive to the public at large. Even with the use of force, replacing a fully formed and accepted identity with a new artificial construct is a complicated process which, even when fully established, tends towards disintegration over time.
The Ukrainian language is a case in point, since it was envisioned from the ground up on the base of several intersecting Slavic languages, not with the intent to bridge some language barrier or ease in communication, as is usually the case with artificially created languages, but to be discernibly different to all of them out of political considerations, balanced to avoid being regarded as a sub-component of any already established culture.
In other words, intentionally made to be as unintelligible as possible within the available linguistic framework. There were never any Ukrainian-speakers who weren't taught the language as part of the effort to promote its use. Consequently, its primary usefulness is not a means of communication, even internally, but as a tool for pushing a particular political proposition. Although I'm inclined to compare it to PC language or legalese, both of which fit the general category, that's also about all that they have in common.
Having said all that, practical realities are not resolved by origin stories. The situation has progressed far enough that there is a measurable demand, even if artificially created, for Ukrainian language education, if only so that students are able to read Ukrainian official documents. I believe Russian pragmatism on the issue is the right course to take and that time itself should be the primary determining factor on whether the language remains in use beyond contemporary political developments.
Posted by: Skiffer | Feb 15 2023 20:32 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
B. Another tour d’ force !
One quibble - there is NO Ukrainian Language. It’s a Russian dialect.
It’s as silly as if one tried to say Yankee is a distinct language because Yankees call frying pans ‘skillets’ and rubber bands ‘elastics’
Posted by: Exile | Feb 15 2023 14:57 utc | 1