Some Small Corrections To Seymour Hersh's New Nord Stream Revelations
Seymour Hersh is a legendary investigative reported who has revealed dozens of crimes the U.S. government committed at home and abroad.
In his latest piece Hersh describes the destruction of the North Stream pipelines in the Baltic Sea by U.S. government forces. The destruction released an enormous amount of methane, a global warming gas. It destroyed Germany's gas lifeline with Russia and thereby heavily damaged Germany's industry. It was ecological and economic terrorism by the U.S. government targeted at an 'ally'.
The story his source is telling Hersh is largely the same one I had constructed from open sources on September 28, a day after the pipeline was blown up.
Whodunnit? - Facts Related to The Sabotage Attack On The Nord Stream Pipelines
Hersh's story is true. That U.S. officials deny it means nothing. Previous revelations by Hersh on domestic spying by the CIA, on the My Lai massacre, on torture at Abu Ghraib, were also denied but eventually all were proven to be true.
The story about the pipelines makes complete sense. Unfortunately there are some details that Hersh, for lack of access to the right information, gets wrong.
He writes:
Last June, the Navy divers, operating under the cover of a widely publicized mid-summer NATO exercise known as BALTOPS 22, planted the remotely triggered explosives that, three months later, destroyed three of the four Nord Stream pipelines, according to a source with direct knowledge of the operational planning.
It is unlikely that the explosives were put out while the yearly BALTOPS exercise was still ongoing. The current Wikipedia entry about it says:
A total of 14 NATO nations, including NATO partner nations Finland and Sweden, took part in the 51st BALTOPS exercise between 5 and 17 June 2022. The usual mine hunting exercise was augmented this year with experimental mine hunting unmanned underwater vehicles and the collection of environmental data sets for target recognition algorithms in conjunction with the Naval Undersea Warfare Center and Naval Information Warfare Center Pacific.
BALTOPS 2022 was shadowed by two Russian Karakurt-class corvette.
The whole exercise took only 12 days. A lot of nations took part. Submarines were involved. The Russian's were around watching what was happening. (They like also had submarines in the wider area.)
Those are not good conditions to do a lot of secret underwater work. It was much easier to do this later, when everyone had turned back to port. The U.S. ships though did not sail home. They stayed around, did some harbor visits and eventually settled down near the island of Bornholm a few miles away from the pipelines where they started to do their work.
Here is where the pipelines were hit:
bigger
The four Nord Stream pipelines, two for Nord Stream 1 and two for Nord Stream 2, are strong:
The steel pipe itself has a wall of 4.1 centimeters (1.6 inches), and it's coated with another 6-11 cm of steel-reinforced concrete. Each section of the pipe weighs 11 tonnes, which goes to 24-25 tonnes after the concrete is applied.
The pipelines are also buried into the sandy sea ground, not deep, but deep enough to prevent fishing equipment or anchors from damaging them.
To blow such pipelines takes a lot more than just putting a few pounds of C4 explosives on top of them. The pipelines had first to be dug out, must likely with pressurized water. Next explosives had to be placed all around them. Then a trigger mechanism of some kind had to be deployed and fixed on to them. Lastly the explosive laden section would have to be reburied to prevent detection or unforeseen entanglement with some external elements. All this had to be done at least four times. If I had planned the operation I probably would have gone for a total of eight explosive packages.
The whole process takes time. Unmanned submarine like vehicles were needed to carry the hundreds of kilograms of explosives and equipment. Diving time at that depth is not unlimited and there must have been a few crew changes. It probably took three to four weeks to fix the whole issue.
When I wrote about the incident I translated a German language report, originally from Thursday, September 23 2022, which Hersh had likely not found.
Here is my original translation:
Big Fleet Group From U.S. Navy Passes [German island passage] FehmanbeltOn Wednesday morning the amphibious assault ship USS Kearsarge, escorted by the Landing Ships USS Arlington and USS Gunston Hall, was en route towards west. Previously, the ships were part of US units that took part in NATO maneuvers and called at numerous ports in Germany, Scandinavia and the Baltic States.
The "USS Kearsarge", flagship of the association and largest warship of the US Navy, which was in action in the Baltic Sea in the last 30 years, has 40 helicopters and fighter planes as well as more than 2000 soldiers on board, the escort ships about 1000. For the around 4,000 soldiers are heading back home on the east coast of the US after their six-month deployment.
The USS Kearsarge was much longer in the Baltic Sea than Hersh presumes. The explosives were put down sometime between the end of BALTOPS on June 17 and September 22, the date the USS Kearsarge passed Fehmarn to leave the Baltic Sea.
That's why Hersh errs when he later writes:
And then: Washington had second thoughts. The bombs would still be planted during BALTOPS, but the White House worried that a two-day window for their detonation would be too close to the end of the exercise, and it would be obvious that America had been involved.Instead, the White House had a new request: “Can the guys in the field come up with some way to blow the pipelines later on command?”
That window was not extend by months between the end of BALTOPS and the explosions but by a mere few days between somewhat around September 20 when the Kearsarge went on its way back home and September 27 when the pipelines exploded.
[added below on Feb 13]
The Kearsarge and its mini fleet were not the only suspicious ships in the area. On October 4 2022 the Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter reported on Swedish Navy ships in the area. The piece is paywalled. (If you have access to the full text please copy the text and send it to me.) The first paragraph, which is free, says (machine translation):
The navy at Kaliningrad before the Nord Stream explosions
Two days before the explosions, the Swedish navy scouted the areas near the gas pipelines outside Bornholm. The navy ship then set course for the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad. The new information is confirmed by the Swedish Armed Forces.
Where the Swedes suspicious what the U.S. ships had done? What did the active sonar readings from their ship over the pipeline tell them?
[End of Feb 13 addition]
Excursion:
Since my translation some content has been added to the German piece to put it in the context of the Russian invasion. It is now dated October 21 2022 which makes no real sense. (The only archive.org copy of the piece is the changed one, saved on December 2022.)
bigger
The piece now starts with this (my translation):
Big Fleet Group From U.S. Navy Passes [German island passage] Fehmarnbelt
I don't remember that there was a sub-headline to it or some sentences about the war in Ukraine but the piece now has those:
On Thursday morning, September 22, a fleet group from the U.S. Navy passed [the German island] Fehmarn. The "USS Kearsarge" as flagship was the biggest of the war ships.
- Russian nuclear submarines and NATO units in strait of Fehmarn
- Ships sail again in western direction
- 40 helicopters and war planes on board
Fehmarn – With the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine, which began in February, and with the change in security policy it caused, with NATO entry requests by Finland and Sweden, the Baltic has become a concentration area for naval forces of Russian and NATO. This can be seen in the increasing number of war ships which have passed the strait of Fehmarn [Fehmarnbelt] during the past months. This counts for Russian nuclear submarines just as for NATO units. On Thursday morning, September 22, a fleet group of the U.S. navy passed Fehmarn.
Then follow, seemingly unchanged, the two paragraphs I had translated previously.
It is some weird editorializing to add the now leading new parts to the old small piece by a local newspaper nearly a month after it was originally published. Who initiated that?
The new part does not make sense. BALTOPS is a yearly exercise, BALTOPS 22 was the 51st one of its kind. That it was held had nothing to do with the war in Ukraine.
As far as I can tell there are and were no nuclear submarines from Russia stationed in the way too shallow Baltic Sea. The home harbors of Russia's nuclear fleets are Murmansk in the northern Kola bay for the Northern and Atlantic fleet and Rybachiy Nuclear Submarine Base on the Kamchatka peninsular for the Pacific fleet.
When a Russian nuclear submarine passes Fehmarn it is most likely one from Murmansk that takes part in the Russian fleet parade in St. Petersburg. That is like BALTOPS a yearly event. To use that for war mongering is rather stupid.
End of excursion.
What was of interest in the piece I had translated was not only the time when the U.S. ships left but also the remark that the Kearsarge was the "largest warship of the US Navy" that was in action in the Baltic Sea in the last 30 years.
The Kearsarge was likely selected for purpose. The ship has a ...
... well deck, which opens to the sea through huge gates in the ship's stern. There, the cargo, troops and vehicles are loaded onto landing craft for transit to the beach. The air cushion landing craft can "fly" out of the dry well deck, or the well deck can be flooded so that conventional landing craft can float out on their way to the beach.
Usually the Kearsarge would be a too big missile target to be in the Baltic Sea. But the well deck comes in handy when one wants to test new underwater equipment or put explosives around pipelines:
In support of BALTOPS, U.S. Navy 6th Fleet partnered with U.S. Navy research and warfare centers to bring the latest advancements in unmanned underwater vehicle mine hunting technology to the Baltic Sea to demonstrate the vehicle’s effectiveness in operational scenarios.Experimentation was conducted off the coast of Bornholm, Denmark, with participants from Naval Information Warfare Center Pacific, Naval Undersea Warfare Center Newport, and Mine Warfare Readiness and Effectiveness Measuring all under the direction of U.S. 6th Fleet Task Force 68.
Bornholm is of course where the pipelines were blown up.
To me the one new and surprising item in the Hersh piece is the involvement of Norwegian forces to trigger the explosions by sonar buoy signals from a P8 navy surveillance plane. It would have bet on Swedish, British or Polish involvement. But Norway makes even more sense as it will profit from the Nord Stream destruction.
Larry Johnson, an old friend of Sy Hersh, has found a video by someone who had tracked a Norwegian P-8 flying in the pipeline area shortly before the explosion.
Unfortunately for Norway though is that its own, now increased gas exports also depend on pipelines. On the day of the Nord Stream explosions Denmark and Poland inaugurated a new pipeline that brings Norwegian gas to Poland. Russia certainly has the means to do to Norwegian pipelines what the U.S. and Norway have done to Nord Stream.
Another small quip I have with the Hersh piece is this:
Sweden had applied for membership into NATO, and had demonstrated its great skill in managing its underwater sound and magnetic sensor systems that successfully tracked Russian submarines that would occasionally show up in remote waters of the Swedish archipelago and be forced to the surface.
Most of the Russian subs the Swedish detected were never there. More than half of the many incidents were "unlikely violations", i.e. they never happened. The great Swedish skill is to scare its own population with false alarms about alleged Russian submarines near its coast:
In 1982, several of Sweden's subs, boats, and helicopters pursued one of these unidentified sources for a whole month, only to come up empty-handed.This continued for over a decade. Every time they picked up an acoustic signal they would search and find nothing but for a few bubbles on the sea's surface. Sweden was, of course, worried about the intrusions, and couldn't think why, with the Cold War now over, Russia would continue to provoke them in this manner.
But it was farts.
...
"It turns out herring have a swim bladder... and this swim bladder is connected to the anal duct of the fish," Wahlberg said. "It's a very unique connection, only found in herring. So a herring can squeeze its swim bladder, and that way it can blurt out a small number of bubbles through the anal opening."In layman's terms, they let one rip. Herrings swim in gigantic schools that can reach several square kilometers and up to 20 meters (65 feet) deep. When something near them frightens them – say, a hungry school of mackerel or a submarine on the lookout for Russian spies – they can generate a lot of gas.
To test his theory, Wahlberg bought a herring from a store and applied pressure, and sure enough, it made a sound. He took the footage to the navy personnel and played it back to them. It was a perfect match for the noise they had been hearing.
The good news was that Sweden wasn't under threat from Russia, the bad news was it had spent 10 years deploying its military in pursuit of fish farts. Since it figured out what was and wasn't fish farts, there have been zero reports of hostile intruders in Swedish waters.
Great Swedish skills. Indeed.
Posted by b on February 9, 2023 at 18:28 UTC | Permalink
next page »Plus one more small (additional) correction,...
The British equivalent of a cia spy in the media dropped a dime on a crisis actor and his dumbass little friends for a crime that they were most likely all in on together,...
We get it, probably one of those 'take them down with us' things.
It takes real skill to create an edible batch of lutefisk. Swedes know herring.
Posted by: oldhippie | Feb 9 2023 18:37 utc | 3
Begs the question for Swedish citizens especially.
Why would Sweden want to join NATO in the first place?
Seems like a path ill-advised....so I suppose
Swedish citizens ought thank Turkey?
Either that or Kurds expressing their views I reckon.
Posted by: Buffalo_Ken | Feb 9 2023 18:39 utc | 4
Still, maybe I'm misinformed, but I read elsewhere months ago that Sweden was involved in a root-cause analysis, and so what is the value of any root-cause analysis, if the results are not transparent? How is anybody supposed to learn if only a few are privy to the info....and besides that as Shakespeare already expressed - "something is rotten in Denmark".
~
Seems like simple deduction assuming the root-cause analysis was performed, and assuming it was, why not just be transparent, because the facts are already being revealed.
Posted by: Buffalo_Ken | Feb 9 2023 18:41 utc | 5
Well, Slon of a bitch @#1
Those intel agencies sure on top of the timing of (B')s postings. This latest effort was one of many, either directly from HQ or by means of their operations which troll for fish farts.
Posted by: aristodemos | Feb 9 2023 18:41 utc | 6
Peace advocates must insist the American fascists and Norwegian Quislings must hang for this war act.
Posted by: Wilikins | Feb 9 2023 18:46 utc | 8
Look like the Russians should have, and likely did catch on what was happening given the overall footprint of the operation.
Yet they did nothing to stop it...
Posted by: shadowbanned | Feb 9 2023 18:47 utc | 9
#9 - sometimes the inevitable has to happen first.
Why try to stop something inevitable is the mark of wisdom.
I just hope Saint George cuts off the serpents tail before it goes back into the cave to sulk.
Posted by: Buffalo_Ken | Feb 9 2023 18:49 utc | 10
Russia needlessly provoked vital American interests in Europe hence this attack. I don't blame America and Norway.
Posted by: slon | Feb 9 2023 18:31 utc | 1
Let me fix that for ya…
The US needlessly provoked vital Russian security interests in Europe and hence the SMO. Noone in the world except the West blames Russia for this.
Posted by: alek_a | Feb 9 2023 18:51 utc | 11
https://www.youtube.com/live/sd908X8cuzg?feature=share
Posted by: Apollyon | Feb 9 2023 18:51 utc | 12
Look like the Russians should have, and likely did catch on what was happening given the overall footprint of the operation.
Yet they did nothing to stop it...
Posted by: shadowbanned | Feb 9 2023 18:47 utc | 9
I don't know that this is a correct conclusion. It appears that the Americans (whatever their faults they can still do some secret stuff) took exceptional pains to cover their efforts and it is much harder to track divers doing diver things underwater than you might think. After the fact I'm sure the Kremlin put 2 and 2 together but I don't believe that Russia knew for sure what was going to happen until they noted the sudden pressure drop in the pipes.
Posted by: mtw | Feb 9 2023 18:52 utc | 14
So the $64,000 question now is: what effect will Hersh's revelation have? Who has spilled the beans and who gains from a limited hangout? And my question to you, dear b, is what will (or can) the Germans do knowing they are the cuckold of NATO? This is Versailles level humiliation.
Posted by: Patroklos | Feb 9 2023 18:59 utc | 15
I had just added the following to the thread of yesterday but will repeat it here.
b, you should really read it since that seems to confirm Hersh's story and according to the blogger a member of the BALTOPS contacted him with details:
--
Another part of the puzzle, a German / Russian blogger is reporting about a whistleblower who contacted him last October. His story completely matches that of Hersh:
Was ich schon 2022 von einem Whistleblower über die Nord-Stream-Sprengung erfahren habe
It's obviously in German but please machine-translate the whole piece yourself if you are interested.
Posted by: Zet | Feb 9 2023 19:01 utc | 16
Nobody in the West bats an eye about who destroyed the NS and they dont care. For them it is ancient history and it is not relevant.
The fact that they have shown to the RoW that they are unreliable and prone to commit major industrial sabotage every time things dont work out for them, is lost to them completely.
If things were fair, the world authority (the UN hehe) will have to prohibit NATO exercises close to civilian infrastructure as they have shown themselves to use it as a cover for terroristic acts.
What if a Chinese-Russian exercise is held in the middle of the pacific exactly where intercontinental telecom cables are passing?
Posted by: alek_a | Feb 9 2023 19:03 utc | 17
slon @1--
The Outlaw US Empire has no genuine "vital interests" in Europe. What it does have are contrived "vital interests" that go against the genuine national interests of the USA and have since the end of WW2. Your trolling is no match for genuine history and those that know it well.
//////
Great addition, b!! What did you make of BM's comment on the previous thread that "Chancellor Scholz is complicit in the crime and thus committed High Treason"?
Regardless of how the US empire committed one of the biggest forms of ecological and economic terrorism on its "ally" Germany and by extension the EU, the question is what Ursula VdL's "strongest possible response" will be? Given that she works for US interests and not the EU's, there will be NO response.
https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1574856534064041996
Posted by: xor | Feb 9 2023 19:03 utc | 19
@ shadowbanned | Feb 9 2023 18:47 utc | 9
Pray tell, given your assertion, precisely what should the Russians have done to stop it ?
thanks b and to others for the links and etc..
it is only a matter of time before this all becomes known.. that is my take.. in the meantime, i too would like to know what the germans do here, as @ Patroklos | Feb 9 2023 18:59 utc | 15..... how does germany process this?? do they remain hidden under a rock?
Posted by: james | Feb 9 2023 19:05 utc | 21
Excellent work correcting some of Hersh's article! However, the end section on the Soviet subs in Swedish waters should have referenced the definitive work of Swedish scholar Ola Tunander, who exposed the Swedish Soviet sub scares of the 1980s as a NATO false flag. Former US Secretary of Defense Weinberger admitted it! See "Some Remarks on the US/UK Submarine Deception In Swedish Waters in the 1980s" -
Ola Tunander, International Peace Research Institute Oslo
http://www.fredsakademiet.dk/Library/Tunander.Pdf
Posted by: Jeffrey Kaye | Feb 9 2023 19:07 utc | 22
Buffalo Ken @ 4
This is a crappy source but it emphasizes that the discussion is hardly "conspiracy theory". Note also in the sidebar the rather unusual bullet point "Connected Families". Read that list to the end. That is the committee that decides in Sweden.
It does not make a damn bit of difference what Swedish citizens want. Family interests and dynastic interests will determine what happens in Sweden.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallenberg_family
Posted by: oldhippie | Feb 9 2023 19:07 utc | 23
At this point, I'd be surprised if Sweeden and Finland ever join NATO, or even if NATO will exist in 5 years. Given the progress of the war, sabotage, corruption, and lack of NATO strength, I'm imagining countries will give performative support for the US and NATO while looking for other options in security.
Posted by: Tremor | Feb 9 2023 19:10 utc | 24
"But Norway makes even more sense as it will profit from the Nord Stream destruction."
nope, Norway cannot increase gas exports to Europe. But they are the country most vulnerable to Russian retaliation. so their involvement makes no sense at all. it was likely disinformation.
Posted by: from norway | Feb 9 2023 19:18 utc | 25
@ shadowbanned | Feb 9 2023 18:47 utc | 9Pray tell, given your assertion, precisely what should the Russians have done to stop it ?
Posted by: Outraged | Feb 9 2023 19:05 utc | 20
At the very minimum, what they did on numerous occasions later on, when they publicly announced that such and such provocation/false flag is about to go down. And then nothing happened, because the plan had been exposed.
The most recent case was the Kramatorsk hospital bombing. A notable one from a few months ago was the dirty bomb scheme.
They still allowed blackmail to work in other cases though, such as with the blowing up of the Nova Khakhovka dam, the threat of which forced the Kherson withdrawal, and nothing was done to stop it, even though it was publicly announced there were such plans.
A lot could have been done with NS -- I highly doubt they weren't aware what was happening already before the explosives were planted.
Yes, once they are on the bottom, removing them becomes a very difficult operation technically, but exposing the operation before the first thing we see about it is gas gushing on the sea surface would have helped a lot.
Right now it is just a complete non-story as the media will bury it.
P.S. I have no idea what the hell they are thinking in the Kremlin, but it is very clear that the psychopath in the West will not stop until they are seriously physically threatened themselves. Nothing else will do. So measures need to be taken to make them afraid, ASAP, because this is getting completely out of control.
But what the Kremlin is doing so far (i.e. nothing) is having the precise opposite effect.
Posted by: shadowbanned | Feb 9 2023 19:18 utc | 26
Slon old buddy you were just waiting in the wings to pounce! Right on cue. Sadly you have come to the wrong place, because your D-level trolling is far below the intelligence threshold here at the Bar. May try CNN? Reddit? I dunno, I hear Twitter is wild and wooly place these days…..
Posted by: Chevrus | Feb 9 2023 19:18 utc | 27
@ Zet | Feb 9 2023 19:01 utc | 16
thanks... that is an important read...
@ karlof1 | Feb 9 2023 19:03 utc | 18
i too am interested in b's response to BM - your quote "What did you make of BM's comment on the previous thread that "Chancellor Scholz is complicit in the crime and thus committed High Treason"?" he can always claim ignorance i suppose... if germany really is just a slave and whipping post for the usa, then what is left to be said?
Posted by: james | Feb 9 2023 19:19 utc | 28
Several months ago somone here asked if SE could join NATO without TR ratification, and I replied, "Sure," with the understanding that, for all intents and purposes, US owns NATO; also that the sanctity of NATO by-laws is a charade. The organizational structure of its "membership" is broad and shallow for the purpose only of cultivating and financing G7 arms buyers.
NATO+: Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council, Mediterranean Dialogue partners, Istanbul Cooperation Initiative partners, Emerging Global security partners, International organisation partners.
Here is a sanitized explanation of "Relations with partners across the globe"
Posted by: sln2002 | Feb 9 2023 19:22 utc | 29
Norwegian Quislings must hang for this war act.
@ Wilikins | Feb 9 2023 18:46 utc | 8
My gosh. "Norwegian Quisling" -- there's a coinage with familiar resonance.
Posted by: Aleph_Null | Feb 9 2023 19:23 utc | 30
Earlier reports claimed that a US Navy Boeing P8 Poseidon sub hunter flew from the US to set off the pre-planted charges on the North Stream pipelines.
https://coronatimesnews.substack.com/p/a-us-navy-boeing-p-8-poseidon-4152#details
Posted by: Krollchem | Feb 9 2023 19:25 utc | 31
Today's Global Times editorial about Hersh's revelations is a must read. Here are a few of its words:
After the report was published, Washington quickly denied it. But simply using the phrase "fake news" is obviously not convincing. The international community needs to keep asking Washington until it gives a convincing explanation....Hersh's latest report is not comparable to conspiracy theories in public opinion, nor are they something Washington can just gloss over....
If what is reported in Hersh's article is true, then the world will probably have to reassess the US' capability to disrupt peace.
The explosion of the Nord Stream pipelines, one of the world's most important transnational energy supply infrastructures, was an extreme event in international politics. Under the fragile political mutual trust, the Nord Stream pipelines were once a main artery of energy connecting Western Europe and Russia, stabilizing the security situation by expanding common interests. Because of this, it has always been a "thorn in the eye" of Washington....
Attacking and destroying major civil infrastructure is a highly egregious act of terrorist nature and must not be tolerated. The international community has no dispute over this....
It is worth noting that the US mainstream media, which has always claimed to be "professional" and "independent," was selectively blind to Hersh's revelations or simply reported denials by the US government. Compared with their unanimously pointing their fingers at Russia after the explosion, this abnormal silence shows that American media agencies are very clear about when to be high-profile or low-key.
A large number of facts show that the US is the well-deserved leader in the "double standard arena." It is obsessed with and good at fabricating rumors or making groundless accusations against others. But it will never admit its own mistakes or even crimes, even if the evidence is solid. It will instead try to blame others. Public opinion predicts that the US government will most likely respond to Hersh's revelations in this way, which will leave another stain on its international credibility.
It should be noted that Europe isn't "addicted" to Russian gas as addiction is a human behavioral condition not at all connected to geoeconomic realities. The contrivance is 100% political on the part of the Outlaw US Empire. If there's an addiction, it exists within the Empire's Establishment's envy/hatred of Russia and its Pleonexia.
Here is the original article detailing evidence of the US Navy P8 involvement in the US terrorist attack
https://www.monkeywerxus.com/blog/the-nord-stream-2-pipeline-sabotage
Posted by: Krollchem | Feb 9 2023 19:29 utc | 33
What our host says is quite convincing as far as this not even remotely expert reader can tell. However, I am left with the tiny corner of a doubt. Specifically, as to whether it's possible that Hersh is being unwittingly used by US intelligence to disseminate a false theory, following which US intelligence, through its MSM mouthpieces, will eventually pounce and provide hitherto unconsidered proof of a very different series of events and actors?
Posted by: Ludovic | Feb 9 2023 19:31 utc | 34
Parallel to this Sputnik News has a decent piece on Jake Sullivan, who was the alleged White House point man on the operation.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 9 2023 19:33 utc | 35
@ Ludovic | Feb 9 2023 19:31 utc | 33
to you and others, i encourage you all do a translation of the link @ Zet | Feb 9 2023 19:01 utc | 16
Posted by: james | Feb 9 2023 19:33 utc | 36
Similar to what I wrote on the previous thread about this, so what?
Is this smoking gun going to be the straw that brings down empire?
Not likely but adds to the growing view by the RoW and some more internally to empire.
Lets see this level of reporting on the biolabs of empire in Ukraine and elsewhere and then see what happens.
The shit show is in desperation mode but value based money is not here yet and Ukraine/Occupied Palestine/Iran/Syria/Korea/Etc have not gone nuclear yet
Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 9 2023 19:33 utc | 37
Some people quip with Hersh characterizing NATO GenSec Stoltenberg like this:
He was a hardliner on all things Putin and Russia who had cooperated with the American intelligence community since the Vietnam War. He has been trusted completely since. “He is the glove that fits the American hand,” the source said.
He was too young to be recruited at that time.
"Not so," says Peter Lee aka Chinahand who has the goods to prove that (Scroll through the thread to get the goods.)
You could say the Swedes fell for a farting 'red herring' then. Literally.
Posted by: Et Tu | Feb 9 2023 19:36 utc | 39
A POTUS similar to John Wayne or Dirty Harry in reply would say:
Yeah, we did it; so, what are you going to do about that?
And in essence, that's exactly the reply being given. So, what is the world going to do about this very clear act of economic and environmental terrorism? I've sort of provided an answer from Russia relating to how it will finish its SMO, but of course that's pure speculation.
The cat is clearly out of the bag now. Perhaps cut the USA off SWIFT and remove it from the IMF, World Bank, WTO, and UNSC? And of course, underneath all this is 911 and the subsequent aggressive wars the Outlaw US Empire waged and continues to wage. Germany was partitioned for its crime of waging aggressive war. Shouldn't the USA suffer something similar?
slon | Feb 9 2023 18:31 utc | 1
"Russia needlessly provoked vital American interests in Europe hence this attack. I don't blame America and Norway."
I see what you getting at, but there is a crucial difference. The usa has no vital intersts 'in Europe' as in: Russia has no vital interests in North America.
Posted by: Pnyx | Feb 9 2023 19:41 utc | 41
https://www.rt.com/russia/571231-kremlin-nord-stream-us/
Kremlin reacts to Nord Stream sabotage claim
A fresh article alleging a US role in the explosions highlights the need for an international probe, Dmitry Peskov says
Russia is concerned by attempts to silently wind down the investigation into last year’s explosions on the Nord Stream gas pipelines, Kremlin Press Secretary Dmitry Peskov has said. A report by renowned American investigative journalist Seymour Hersh, blaming the US for the sabotage, should spur attempts to find out what happened, he stressed.
Articles such as the one by Hersh show “the need for an open international investigation into this unprecedented attack on this critical infrastructure,” Peskov told the media on Thursday. “It’s impossible to leave this without finding the perpetrators and punishing them.”
Russia has already spoken about data which “points to the involvement of the Anglo-Saxons [the US and the UK]” in this incident, and there is “certain overlapping” between this information and the report by the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, the Kremlin spokesman said.
Peskov argued that although Hersh’s journalistic investigation cannot be viewed as source material, “it’s a very important piece, which… must provoke the acceleration of the international probe. But we, on the contrary, witness attempts to silently wind down such international investigation.”
The bombshell report, which came out on Wednesday, claimed the US was behind the blasts on the Nord Stream pipelines. An informed source told Hersh that explosives were placed on the pipelines in the Baltic Sea back in June 2022 by US Navy divers under the guise of a NATO exercise, and were detonated in late September.
The sabotage of Nord Stream 1, which delivered Russian natural gas to Europe through Germany, along with the newly completed Nord Stream 2, rendered the infrastructure inoperable.
Separate probes into the explosions being carried out by Germany, Sweden and Denmark have yet to produce any concrete results. German Public Prosecutor General Peter Frank said last week that even the suspicion “that there had been a foreign sabotage act [in this case], has so far not been substantiated.”
What happened to the Nord Stream pipelines was a “very dangerous precedent” because “if someone committed such a thing once, they can do it anywhere in the world a second time,” Peskov warned.
“There aren’t that many countries in the world that are capable of carrying out such sabotage,” he added.
Posted by: Oblomovka daydream | Feb 9 2023 19:48 utc | 42
Interesting, though I wouldn’t put it past the US to sabotage Norwegian pipelines and blame it on Russia.
Noting all the security around Norwegian pipelines and oil producing facilities in the article, it appears to me that the Norwegians clearly know what they did and are expecting a bit of payback for it, afterall what they did is clearly an act of war.
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Feb 9 2023 19:50 utc | 43
"It's done"... perhaps Liz Truss was referencing the new wallpaper being installed at 10 Downing Street.
As pointed out by many, Hersh might be being used unwittingly to misdirect. The Norwegian plane might have been a decoy.
As for b's comment: "But Norway makes even more sense as it will profit from the Nord Stream destruction."
Per my comments on the previous thread, before the conflict, the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund owned almost 1% of Gazprom stock as well as in some of the other partners in NS2. Those losses were not insignificant.
https://www.nbim.no/en/the-fund/investments#/
https://www.dw.com/en/norway-sovereign-wealth-fund-reports-164-billion-loss/a-64563253
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 9 2023 19:51 utc | 44
"The four Nord Stream pipelines, two for Nord Stream 1 and two for Nord Stream 2"
That's not quite correct. NS2 pipes are "stronger" in terms of material reinforcement and mechanical and software system (PCL)design; OEM sourced in RF and ultimately layed by RF because Biden's sanction waivers did not extend to NS2 contractors. That's why NS2 survived in whole and in part—Nord Stream AG announced a repair schedule for the one line damaged.
By contrast, NS1 lines, which is 10 years older and afflicted with multiple maintenance "issues," are now a total loss. Hersh's story is out to placate amateur war II nerds. As far as I'm concerned, that story skirts a significant NS1 design vulnerability, terminal and remote access to Siemens PCL run-time routines. This forbidden topic of G7 "cyber" and offensive maneuvers is the paragraph Hersh's handlers did not write.
Posted by: sln2002 | Feb 9 2023 19:53 utc | 45
Pnyx | Feb 9 2023 19:41 utc | 39
"Russia has no vital interests in North America."
Russia has far more of a legitimate interest in its former territory Alaska than the US has anywhere in the eastern hemisphere (i.e. zero).
Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Feb 9 2023 19:54 utc | 46
Oblomovka daydream @40--
Thanks for posting that as I was about to do the same. What's most curious is this:
"German Public Prosecutor General Peter Frank said last week that even the suspicion 'that there had been a foreign sabotage act [in this case], has so far not been substantiated.'"
That IMO is completely ludicrous and shows collusion between him and CIA, or at minimum his complete control by the Outlaw US Empire. They blew themselves up is what he's implying since he's saying that no act of "sabotage" was performed. Clearly the man is 100% unfit for his position and is probably unqualified to issue parking tickets.
@slon, #1:
Do you also think that prior to Russia's SMO, America/NATO provoked vital Russian interests in the many color revolutions and NATO expansions in clear violation of their pledge of non-expansion?
Just curious about where you stand, not meant to start an argument on he said/she said.
I don't blame America. What they did is what they have always done. I do blame Norway. They have torn off their own facade. They have proved themselves as beasts of the same kind as America.
Posted by: Oriental Voice | Feb 9 2023 19:57 utc | 48
RT reports:
Speaker of the Russian parliament Vyacheslav Volodin has branded US President Joe Biden a “terrorist” after a report by iconic American investigative journalist Seymour Hersh blamed Washington for sabotaging the Nord Stream pipelines last year.Volodin said on Thursday that Biden’s State of the Union address, in which he claimed that the US was “a nation that stands as a beacon to the world,” reminded him of “statements by the leaders of the Third Reich.”
The ramifications of this “ideology of exceptionalism” were uncovered in the investigation by Hersh, the Russian MP wrote in a post on Telegram.
I find Volodin's accusation and comparison 100% valid. IMO, the information war has completely reversed with Hersh's article.
karlof1 - did you mean to say #42?
Posted at @19:48?
Not to be a stickler, but references here at this site, and I know it is just a "bar" could really benefit if the references were not subject to edits from the host. Any host, obviously, this the site of the host, but some conventions might be of value, but if it is to be a ball-room brawl, than all I can say is:
- count me in - I'm in the mood for a fight
Posted by: Buffalo_Ken | Feb 9 2023 20:06 utc | 51
Here's a speculation:
Months ago Denmark, Sweden and Germany announced that their joint investigation would instead break into separate ones.
More recently, the investigations came to a halt with vapid conclusions and a refusal to share details.
Now for the speculation -- The investigators found that Russia had surveillance apparatus that recorded irrefutable culpatory evidence of the guilty parties. Knowing this they were between a rock and a hard place: unable to lie without being exposed, but unwilling to tell the truth.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Feb 9 2023 20:06 utc | 52
Figleaf23 @20:06
That makes total sense to me....so what is one to do when caught twixt a rock and a hard place.
My momma told me to tell the truth.
Posted by: Buffalo_Ken | Feb 9 2023 20:10 utc | 53
The whole point and significance of Seymour Hersh’ expose is that it moved the story of the attack on the NS pipelines into the mainstream narrative. Now it can be denied but cannot be ignored as confirmed by the articles appearing throughout MSM. This is the main problem for the powers that be and they know it. The hope as always is that it will be buried and that most people will forget about it. Who remembers Abu Ghraib these days… ?
Posted by: wlodek | Feb 9 2023 20:14 utc | 54
shadowbanned | Feb 9 2023 19:18 utc | 26
there was that classic Simpson's episode, "Bart's Comet" i think, where the US was going to blow up a comet to save Springfield. of course the missile missed and blew up part of the Simpsons' hometown, because realism, duh.
the other realistic touch was the label on the USM's missile:
AIM AWAY FROM FACE.
it takes at least a little patience to assess the damage. everyone on the planet has been hurt and severely threatened by what the US did. incl the US.
Posted by: rjb1.5 | Feb 9 2023 20:19 utc | 55
Here's the journalist who passed the information of the whistleblower on to Thomas Röper (anti-spiegel.ru) in October 2022:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd908X8cuzg
Posted by: Apollyon | Feb 9 2023 20:21 utc | 56
"So the $64,000 question now is: what effect will Hersh's revelation have? Who has spilled the beans and who gains from a limited hangout?
And my question to you, dear b, is what will (or can) the Germans do knowing they are the cuckold of NATO? This is Versailles level humiliation."
Posted by: Patroklos | Feb 9 2023 18:59 utc | 15
Well, the german government will not touch it. They already are aware. The German government could try to play the game, in the shadow of longings, to pursue an anti-Russian compliance policy and taking into account those poisoned calls for the recognition of "a moral responsibility of the Germans towards Eastern Europe to get rid of this Russian obsession of the Germans" (Ukraine's new ambassador in Berlin), to put the German government at the forefront of this movement by sending tanks to slow down this movement. After all, "arms deliveries are not a bidding and NATO is not at war with Russia" (Scholz). That's the approach we're seeing in Berlin at the moment. Moscow will see it too.
The central problem is that there is no corrective in the domestic discourse. The German media in the "age of liberalism" equipped with a mindset that despises everything German as a "special path", that all modalities of educational knowledge from Germany's 75-year post-war period, in order to create an Anglo-Saxon worldview overnight anchored in the German culture of remembrance. It is the German media outlets that are chasing and hounding the chancellor. The domestic pressure on Berlin was and is far greater than that from Washington, London, Kyiv and Warsaw together.
In Germany we have been observing extremist propaganda since 2013, accompanied by armored steel censorship that even makes Abram tanks look like a tiger made of paper. For a year now it has not been possible to publish a reader's comment under any banal online article that, after a critical assessment of the sources from Kyiv, Washington, London and what consequences this could have for our depiction and presentation of the conflict.Such a factual question does not get through the censorship. But you can always call out "Russians as Orcs", "Putin as a mass murderer and Hitler 2.0" and wish death to the president of the Russian Federation. This will be published under the articles of the liberal media who wanted to enlighten us about "hate speech" just a day ago. One feels like in a social experiment of the self-empowerment of the media.
Five million Germans could demonstrate in front of the Ukrainian and US embassies in Berlin and a week later visit NATO and the EU in Brussels.
Now such social cohesion among citizens is not desired, it is paralyzed and eroded with targeted means such as "Identity and Diversity".
However, I probably have not answered your questions at all and went a little on my own agenda instead, I assume.^^
Posted by: Konrad | Feb 9 2023 20:25 utc | 57
Posted by: wlodek | Feb 9 2023 20:14 utc | 54:
Who remembers Abu Ghraib these days… ?
Abu Ghraib may not be on people's lips these days, but if in an argument of 'America pro or con', and you mention Abu Ghraib, your informed opponent in the argument would hang his/her head.
That's what accurate documentation of history does for humanity: a record for posterior to draw lessons from. America is too big and strong still for anyone to hold it to account for now. But things would change over time. There will be a time for America to account for the killings and destructions it had orchestrated over the past 70+ years. That time may even be within the life spans of most of us in this bar.
Posted by: Oriental Voice | Feb 9 2023 20:27 utc | 58
@ DF | Feb 9 2023 20:04 utc | 50
yes, i agree... it is the same link that @ Zet | Feb 9 2023 19:01 utc | 16 shared... i encourage people to read it..
@ Apollyon | Feb 9 2023 20:21 utc | 56
thanks...
Posted by: james | Feb 9 2023 20:29 utc | 59
Thank you, karlof1 @ | Feb 9 2023 19:28 utc | 32- That is a brief assessment at Global Times, but I'll grab a couple of its points, the first being:
"...More than 50 years ago, his report that exposed the US military's massacre of Vietnamese civilians significantly pushed the anti-war movement in the US..."
[My own thought on the above has been a hope that just as then, this electrifying story will do the same vis-a-vis the Ukraine carnage. Let it be!]
And secondly, the suggestion that what will follow may be the Rashomon effect.
[I take this to mean all of the eruptions in media that matter (and noneruption in those that do not) as is happening here - and thank you b for being focussed on it. I will also give kudos to nakedcapitalism.com - some good analysis there as well as in comments.]
Oh that real journalism can finally break the logjam! Timing is all; a spring meltdown is due!
Posted by: juliania | Feb 9 2023 20:31 utc | 60
There will be a time for America to account for the killings and destructions it had orchestrated over the past 70+ years. That time may even be within the life spans of most of us in this bar.Posted by: Oriental Voice | Feb 9 2023 20:27 utc | 58
Was there ever accountability for the damage done by the Spanish or British Imperialists during their peak empire phase? Why will this time be any different?
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 9 2023 20:33 utc | 61
One thing rarely mentioned is the long term damage to Germany. Manufacturing, especially in its big industries is taking a nose dive.
The purchasing index which is an indicator of the future has fallen 20% since February last year. The car industry is taking a hit from china as is its machinery and chemical industry.
Any industry which relies on gas will be at a major disadvantage, especially when compared to China.
Now the usual media types say that German manufacturing will move to the USA where gas is cheap, but my guess is that most will move to China. The Germans like a well ordered society and I doubt many senior German business executives will be too keen to relocate their families to the violence plagued US South.
Posted by: watcher | Feb 9 2023 20:34 utc | 62
@Patroklos.
"And my question to you, dear b, is what will (or can) the Germans do knowing they are the cuckold of NATO? This is Versailles level humiliation."
Well, most of the German people simply don't no that they're the cuckold of NATO. In the evening news not a word was uttered about Hersh's article. Only reports about the earthquake disaster in Turkey and Syria, the Führer's visit to Bruxelles and football - that's all.
Posted by: Apollyon | Feb 9 2023 20:34 utc | 63
Amazing how soon Joshua Frank, of CounterPunch, registered his suspicion of Hersh's story, which, as b confirms is obviously true, though it will be dsome time before the details are finally known.
I can think of no precedent for this since the Alabama incident which, in 1872, led to the US winning millions in compensation for British complicity in the damage the Alabama did to American commerce.
No doubt there are plenty of precedents but this strikes me as being an open and shut case in any international forum or in the eyes of any credible arbitrator.
Any doubts as to whether the story is true can best be put to rest in a tribunal or court.
Those who believe that Russia should take action of some kind are just revealing their cultural affinities: the obvious action is to put the matter before the Security Council. This is a question on which vetoes don't really work: Russia both as a nation and in the person of interested parties, investors, Gazprom etc, have a complaint that is going to have to be examined.
If, as looks to be the case, the US government is guilty of an act of sabotage on a massive scale it is going to have to pay for it. And it will, either directly, in settlement and accompanied by an apology, including punishment for those responsible for the decisions that led up to the crime.
Or, in the short term in the form of international contempt (talk about soft power) and disdain, leading to an eventual settlement on Russia's terms..
In the meantime the core is "Rules based Order" 0- "International Law"1
Posted by: bevin | Feb 9 2023 20:36 utc | 64
Hi folks.
have been extremly busy with this topic and re-checked now my previous assumptions regarding the flight of the Poseidon P-8 (allegedly an US from Keflavik!) and the possible "triggering" of some explosive devices through a possible drop by a modified(?) HAAWC, long before Seymoure went into it:
https://farsight3.wordpress.com/2022/10/03/nord-stream-deutschlands-9-11/
See the LATEST UPDATE: "Watson, we have a problem"
Watch the ZULU-Time, when the subhunter came into the vicinity of Bornholm. This was at exactly 01:03 Zulu (=03:03 CEST) - so ONE HOUR AFTER the 1st detonation.
The attempt to draw in Norway now only thickens the fog!
FS3
Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 9 2023 19:28 utc | 32
"It should be noted that Europe isn't "addicted" to Russian gas as addiction is a human behavioral condition not at all connected to geoeconomic realities."
Absolutely correct. As can be seen from Europe doing fine, even thriving, without russian gas.
Russian budget deficits however are staggering.
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Feb 9 2023 20:48 utc | 67
More minor details
I think Hersh is wrong on many of the minor details. The same problem as in his piece on the 2013 Ghouta sarin massacre. The reason is that Hersh never does any research of his own. He simply repeats what his insider sources tell him.
The Red Line and the Rat Line - Seymour M. Hersh on Obama, Erdoğan and the Syrian rebels - April 17, 2014
Most of what he writes can be inferred from public sources. The only new piece of information is the role of Norway.
If we believe Hersh is not making up the story, then he adds independent confirmation to what is already known. Problem is, MSM is not interested in facts or truth. They will keep repeating the same lies. True or not, Hersh will be labeled a conspiracy theorist.
Minor detail where Hersh is wrong: The P-8 Poseidon was American, not Norwegian. If it came from Norway, it would not have needed to do in-air refueling. (Or maybe there were two P-8's, one for NS1, one for NS2.)
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 9 2023 20:48 utc | 68
@ Posted by: bevin | Feb 9 2023 20:36 utc | 64
Here is the Joshua Frank thread...
https://twitter.com/joshua__frank/status/1623387523241345024
His assessment of Jens Stoltenberg is not wrong. I think this particular Hersh exposé was more to pressure NATO to be proactive in the conflict and to stop questioning US leadership of the organization than anything else.
I am certain there is a lot more questioning of the US's role in escalating this conflict in the capitals of Europe than is reported in the media. That can only be a good thing.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 9 2023 20:51 utc | 69
Larry Johnson post on the destruction of Nord Stream
https://sonar21.com/independent-evidence-confirms-key-part-of-sy-hershs-report-on-the-attack-on-nord-stream-2/
Posted by: Krollchem | Feb 9 2023 20:54 utc | 70
wlodek | Feb 9 2023 20:14 utc | 54
Who remembers Abu Ghraib these days… ?
what an interesting statement. indeed, who remembers gitmo? who remembers that dude who said, "let them eat yellowcake"? Assange is an aberration, right?
the funny thing is the US "allies", like Zelensky, have a better grasp, slippery and eel-like though it may be, limited for sure, of the US imperialist history than its own citizens. He can put on a good show, or a disgusting one, but he knows enough to know there's more than just a locked and loaded bullet w/his name on it, right at his head. there might be blow, ho's, and cash, if he plays ball. someone to wipe down the keyboard, after his penetrating comedy, a man needs a maid after all. someone to keep 9 of his nails trimmed, open his coke bags, and go away.
if US "allies" don't know what the US can get up to, who's fault is that? there's plenty of amputee Laotians, more every day in fact, they can talk to. still losing limbs in the mine/farm fields, w/some utter monster like mob boss Obama threatening to withold "landmine removal support services and funds" unless Laos made the pirouette to Asia in lock step w/the dance of Mars that Uncle Sam is leading. plenty of Libyans in Europe freezing in their refugee camps. walk down the street and ask.
Posted by: rjb1.5 | Feb 9 2023 20:55 utc | 71
Judge Napolitano on fire:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SfqacYEXtKQ
Posted by: blueswede | Feb 9 2023 20:57 utc | 72
Ta. v. useful as ever
Brief profile of Jake 'we need a Pearl Harbour moment to unite the West' Sullivan ...
Who's Jake Sullivan, the Man Who Reportedly Assembled 'Dream Team' to Destroy Nord Stream? - 09.02.2023, Sputnik International (sputniknews.com)
Jake pulled off a bit more than a "fish-fart" ... but with the Ukrainians Nuland and Blinken by his side he farted more Methane than all the cows in Scandinavia.
Posted by: Don Firineach | Feb 9 2023 21:03 utc | 73
With respect to his methadology, here's a comment from Seymour Hersch courtesy of NakedCapitalism's Watercooler:
“Why Substack?” [Seymour Hersh, Substack]. “Here, I have the kind of freedom I’ve always fought for. I’ve watched writer after writer on this platform as they’ve freed themselves from their publishers’ economic interests, run deep with stories without fear of word counts or column inches, and—most importantly—spoken directly to their readers. And that last point, for me, is the clincher. I’ve never been interested in socializing with pols or cozying up to money types at the self-important cocktail get togethers—the star-f--g[sic] parties, I always liked to call them. I’m at my best when I swig cheap bourbon with the servicemen, work over the first-year law firm associates for intel, or swap stories with the junior minister from a country most people can’t name. That’s always been my style. And as it turns out, it’s the ethos of this online community as well. What you’ll find here is, I hope, a reflection of that freedom. The story you will read today is the truth as I worked for three months to find, with no pressure from a publisher, editors or peers to make it hew to certain lines of thought—or pare it back to assuage their fears. Substack simply means reporting is back . . . unfiltered and unprogrammed—just the way I like it.”
Posted by: juliania | Feb 9 2023 21:05 utc | 74
"Rules based Order" 0 - "International Law" 1
@ bevin | Feb 9 2023 20:36 utc | 64
A central feature of USA, positioned as global hegemon, is the absolute immunity of USA persons and institutions from the purview of any truly international court (one that's not under USA's thumb, that is). This immunity has been the most strenuously endorsed aspect of the fabled "American exceptionalism" we celebrate: international rules, laws, or principles cannot ever be applied here.
Were prohibitions against genocidal practices (for instance) to be enforced against any state of the United States, it would unacceptably impair our sovereignty. This longstanding US American drive to destroy the very concept of international law arises quite starkly in readings on the UN genocide convention, from which USA essentially exempts itself, despite succeeding in watering down the text to practical meaninglessness.
Posted by: Aleph_Null | Feb 9 2023 21:10 utc | 75
Dutch media of MH-17 infamy … Twitter “De Telegraaf”
Translation:
Who blew up oil pipeline Nord Stream 1 and 2? It was America, says the well-known American journalist Seymour Hersh based on one anonymous source.Nord Stream Conspiracy Theories: Did America Blow Up Oil Pipeline?
Frontpage paper version highlights …
Story controversial journalist hits homeAmerican journalist: “US was behind sabotage pipeline Nord Stream”
History of controversial newspaper De Telegraaf — Amsterdam.
De Telegraaf was banned after World War II for collaboration with the Nazis, but the ban was lifted in 1949. Owing to its polemic right-wing editorial policy the paper is often accused of campaign journalism. It is mainly read by low earners and the middle class.
I saw the other day the full-text of the WH denial of the Hersh story, but now can only find snippets like "utterly false" quoted in (of course, identically phrased) articles. The full quote I read was something like:
"The claim that the US used BALTOPS22 as cover to have navy divers based out of Norway destroy the Nordstream pipelines with C4 explosives is completely and utterly false."
Which is a classical lawyer trick: it sounds like they're denying the sabotage, but really they're only saying it didn't go down exactly like Hersh claims, and no true denial at all.
Can anybody come up with a source for the full denial? Of course, I may just be having a Berenstein Bears moment...
Posted by: mg | Feb 9 2023 21:22 utc | 77
Our regional media here in north east England hasn't mentioned the latest NS developments - actually, I don't think they even mentioned it when it happened - but has instead decided to revist the MH17 airline shot down over Ukraine in 2014, under the impartial headline : "MH17: 'Strong indications' Vladimir Putin supplied missile used to shoot down flight".
As one of the commentators noted : is the sudden resurrection of this story intended to draw attention away from the NS story ?
It is quite heartening though to see commentators at this media now questioning everything to do with Ukraine - intelligent commentators anyway. Check out the resident Ukro-troll "Bluesee", which I'm sure is going to implode everytime someone questions the official narrative.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/world-news/mh17-strong-indications-vladimir-putin-26189102
Posted by: Red Star | Feb 9 2023 21:25 utc | 78
As others have noted, Twitter is saying that what significantly undermines the credibility of the Hersh story is his claim that Stoltenberg has been working closely with the US since the Vietnam War, when the latter would have only about 15 years old. Moreover, it appears that in his youth Stoltenberg actually opposed the Vietnam War and Norway's entry into NATO.
Posted by: Ludovic | Feb 9 2023 21:32 utc | 79
So measures need to be taken to make them afraid...
Posted by: shadowbanned | Feb 9 2023 19:18 utc | 26
Gilbert Doctorov is afraid that there is something on its way.
Posted by: limpus | Feb 9 2023 21:42 utc | 80
@slon | Feb 9 2023 18:31 utc | 1
I agree that once Obama rescinded the Carter era ban on exporting US hydrocarbons, the US, like Norway,had a vital interest in selling hydrocarbons to Europe. That does not justify an act of war, which is what the bombing of a pipeline indubitably is. It is not just a crime against the peace (for which the US executed people at Nuremburg), but is an egregious violation of US Law, because "treaties are deemed supreme law of the land when made under the authority of the United States" and the Grand Charter of the UN is a ratified US treaty. So this is indubitably a high-crime for which an impeachment or other trial is appropriate, but if not tried by the USA is a crime of universal jurisdiction with no statutory limitations, which means that it can be tried anywhere at any time by any competent court including The International Criminal Court in The Hague.
So, once again, the IS has a prima facie war criminal snd violator of the US constitution as president.
Posted by: Hermit | Feb 9 2023 21:44 utc | 81
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 9 2023 20:33 utc | 61:
Was there ever accountability for the damage done by the Spanish or British Imperialists during their peak empire phase?
Good question! Damage done by the Spanish and/or Brutish Imperialists were done under the Law of the Jungle, and I suspect over time they will be accounted for too under the same Law of the Jungle. When Mexico develops to a state equivalent to today's Outlaw Empire (in karlof1's terminology) and Spain remains as is of today, I believe some jungle type role plays will occur between these two players. Same with Britain, with jungle beasts facing them all over the world since they did their script in the sense "never-setting sun" scope. Judging from Britain's trajectory of decay, they may be getting to their jungle court sooner than the Spaniards.
I think Japan understands the notion I'm on; that's why they strapped themselves onto the Empire's chariot with 100% obedience, in the vain hope that when China/Southeast Asia haul them into the jungle court, the Empire may bail them out.
Posted by: Oriental Voice | Feb 9 2023 21:51 utc | 82
Posted by: Ludovic | Feb 9 2023 21:32 utc | 79
Stoltenberg Jr has probably been mistaken for his father Thorvald Stoltenberg who "served as [Norway's] Minister of Defence from 1979 to 1981".
Posted by: just a fact | Feb 9 2023 21:51 utc | 83
Polish ex-foreign minister Radoslaw Sikorski (married to Anne Applebaum) famously thanked the U.S. for blowing up the pipelines. This only makes sense to distract from a Polish role in the matter.
Poland's recent campaign demanding, in shrill tones, that Germany pay massive reparations for WW II is consistent with a basic sense that the country should "stand up" (and sacrifice young lives) in a quest to right long-past wrongs.
To be sure, German rule over occupied Poland was extremely brutal and involved the murder, through acts and intentional omissions, of millions of civilians. However, whether it is wise realpolitik for Poland to alienate its Western neighbor at this time is a very different issue.
Poland's elite should also remind itself that the neocon power players in DC have no innate love for Poland or its people, and would not be sad to see even more inter-Slavic slaughter. Getting starry-eyed about regaining Lwow (aka in Lviv in Banderastani) invites manipulation and betrayal by Poland's "friends." Having been played and then dumped by Britain in WW II, Poland may consider that "discretion is the better part of valor."
Posted by: Pacific Observer | Feb 9 2023 21:55 utc | 84
the US, like Norway,had a vital interest in selling hydrocarbons to Europe.Posted by: Hermit | Feb 9 2023 21:44 utc | 81
Stop it already. Norway is going to have to sell a lot more hydrocarbons at a profit to compensate for the $164 billion loss they took in 2022. One assumes they wrote their Gazprom and other Russian share holdings down to zero as a result of the conflict.
https://www.dw.com/en/norway-sovereign-wealth-fund-reports-164-billion-loss/a-64563253
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 9 2023 21:55 utc | 85
It's not how much gas the norweigans sell, it's the price.
Posted by: blueswede | Feb 9 2023 22:03 utc | 86
Russia has far more of a legitimate interest in its former territory Alaska than the US has anywhere in the eastern hemisphere (i.e. zero).
Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Feb 9 2023 19:54 utc | 46
That's an interesting point.
From a legal point of view, does the state of Alaska have the right to secede from the United States, and become an independent country, or join the Russian Federation?
Posted by: Passerby | Feb 9 2023 22:05 utc | 87
My first disagreement with -b ever.
My boat is docked in West Norfolk across from the US MSC fleet in the Western Branch of the Elizabeth River. At the end of the Elizabeth River is the US Naval Station Norfolk. Ship yards all around, USN and civilian.
A LSD (Dock Landing Ship) supports amphibious operations including underwater SEAL Delivery Vehicles. I posted this in these pages earlier.
Launching an SDV is not easily noticed. BTW, UDT training still exists, i.e. Underwater Demolition Training as a precursor to more demanding SEAL training.
-b living in Germany might not be up on these subtle but relevant distinctions. I stand with my earlier post. I also pointed out that the delivery of airborne explosives from a USN Poseidon aircraft was not viable with a 44 KG warhead. It never occurred to me that it might have delivered a sonobuoy from a high elevation as the device to trigger the planted explosives.
Civilian divers also operate at amazing depths. Some of the US Submarines are equipped with decompression chambers for deep sea divers, e.g. the USS Jimmy Carter (SSN-23).
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Feb 9 2023 22:07 utc | 88
It's not how much gas the norweigans sell, it's the price.Posted by: blueswede | Feb 9 2023 22:03 utc | 85
The EU also wants to put a price cap on gas imported from other European nations. Norway is not part of the EU. Norway says it can increase output, with additional capital investment, but naturally wants long term contracts.
According to Barrons Norway's trade surplus with the EU has jumped, but trade surplus is not equal to profit. It will take years for profits to offset the losses from the $164 billion in losses in 2022 from their sovereign investment funds.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 9 2023 22:23 utc | 89
@21 Posted by: james | Feb 9 2023 19:05 utc | 21
Germany needs a new government, that's how they do this. They need to get out of NATO and the EU, and sign a peace agreement with Russia.
Currently the only parties who understand whats going on, or rather, WANT to understand what's going on, are Die Linke (former communists) and AfD.
The other parties incl. the Greens know the score, but choose to usurup the German nation and serve foreign interests.
Posted by: stantas | Feb 9 2023 22:28 utc | 90
When Mexico develops to a state equivalent to today's Outlaw Empire (in karlof1's terminology) and Spain remains as is of today, I believe some jungle type role plays will occur between these two players. Same with Britain, with jungle beasts facing them all over the world since they did their script in the sense "never-setting sun" scope. Judging from Britain's trajectory of decay, they may be getting to their jungle court sooner than the Spaniards.Posted by: Oriental Voice | Feb 9 2023 21:51 utc | 82
OMG!!! It is not accountability (or justice) if the original perpetrators have been dead for over 100 years. Its just pointless lunacy.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 9 2023 22:36 utc | 92
fyi
Southfront on the act;
https://southfront.org/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream-pipeline/
Yves Smith on the act:
My 2 cents: It's war.
Posted by: Don Firineach | Feb 9 2023 22:41 utc | 93
@Pete
"Has anyone seen this story picked up in the German MSM?"
Yes, the story is to big. They try to cast doubt on Hersh's credibility and point out that he has no real evidence for his claim.
"The controversial US journalist Seymour Hersh writes in a poorly documented blog post that the US blew up the Nord Stream pipelines. Russian propaganda is already using the claim for its own purposes."
Posted by: Apollyon | Feb 9 2023 22:42 utc | 94
Has anyone seen this story picked up in the German MSM?Posted by: Pete | Feb 9 2023 22:30 utc | 90
The Spiegel article today mostly disparages Hersh ;-)
Überraschung?
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Feb 9 2023 22:48 utc | 95
. . . .sign of progress. . .from Tag24
"Biden is writing himself into history as a terrorist," Russian parliamentary leader Vyacheslav Volodin wrote on his Telegram channel on Thursday.. . .here
It's good to see it personalized, after all the 'Putin did this and that.'
Posted by: Don Bacon | Feb 9 2023 22:57 utc | 96
Posted by: Passerby | Feb 9 2023 22:05 utc | 86 Re: Alaska
I asked about this recently. Apparently Russia leased Alaska to the US for 99 years, 100+ years ago.
Is there some way Russia can seize Alaska back ?
Posted by: Featherless | Feb 9 2023 22:57 utc | 97
"It is unlikely that the explosives were put out while the yearly BALTOPS exercise was still ongoing."
So, Hersh likely got it right that the operation started in june and maybe he even checked that the divers had returned to Panama, but that doesn't mean the operation had stopped. Maybe they had only done some setup?
- I wonder about the time needed for placing the mines. You'd think a lot of development has gone into speeding up such processes - if that is possible. How fast can it be done if you have an unlimited budget? You don't dig by hand, you'll be getting a lot of powertools delivered from whatever boat.Also if you have a dumber, less supervised method to destroy the pipeline but it takes 10 times more explosives then it can be considered as well.
-if they had to brief Sweden and Denmark about weird activity during BALTOPS and they continued to work afterwards, did they not require briefing then?
-when it is calm you are spotted less but you stand out more.
Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Feb 9 2023 22:58 utc | 98
I have a small quibble with Hersch's article, and it is really insignificant. I'm not qualified to comment on the real content of his report, but I was surprised to read that the events took place, he said, in Northeast Russia near the border with Estonia. Surely he meant NW Russia.
Posted by: Oscar Romero | Feb 9 2023 23:00 utc | 99
Russia provoked vital US interests by invading Ukraine? LOL which particular interests would those be considering the massive amounts of profits that have been generated for the American MIC and North American fossil fuel industries?
What does "provoked vital interests" even mean?
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Feb 9 2023 23:01 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
Russia needlessly provoked vital American interests in Europe hence this attack. I don't blame America and Norway.
Posted by: slon | Feb 9 2023 18:31 utc | 1