Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.
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January 13, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-12
Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict. The current open thread for other issues is here. Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Comments
Slavyangrad Telegram Channel Reports Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Jan 13 2023 21:30 utc | 101
I disagree. The west loses if it fails to dislodge Putin and that is NOT going to happen. The whole military and financial investment the west has made in this proxy war has been to dislodge Putin, break Russia apart, divide its peoples and then move in to steal its resources. Russia is not concerned with “inflicting pain” on the west. It is only interested in defending its culture, people and land. Posted by: HERMIUS | Jan 13 2023 21:31 utc | 102 Bagradian no. 82 Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jan 13 2023 21:34 utc | 103 Why do any of you think the Russians care about saving lives? The have fired millions of unguided shells and rockets at Ukrainian cities. Posted by: OohCanada | Jan 13 2023 21:34 utc | 104 catdog | Jan 13 2023 21:22 utc | 96 Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2023 21:37 utc | 105 Reisner’s latest report lost the veneer of neutrality the previous ones had. Posted by: Boo | Jan 13 2023 21:39 utc | 106 Posted by: HERMIUS | Jan 13 2023 21:31 utc | 99 Posted by: catdog | Jan 13 2023 21:40 utc | 107 uncle tungsten | Jan 13 2023 21:26 utc | 97 Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2023 21:43 utc | 108 @ThusspakeZarathustra | Jan 13 2023 21:34 utc | 100 Posted by: Bagradian | Jan 13 2023 21:53 utc | 109 From Z & V telegram channel… Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Jan 13 2023 21:54 utc | 110 Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2023 21:43 utc | 105 Posted by: WJ | Jan 13 2023 21:54 utc | 111 It hasn’t really passed, it’s just suspended. Nukes are only going to be used if the Russians are pushed so far that the stability and integrity of Russia is in question. We’re not there yet, and in any case, Ukraine is likely to run out of men or materiel before that happens. Posted by: Boo | Jan 13 2023 21:56 utc | 112 catdog @ 104
That’s guaranteed after the west attacked Russia practically out of the blue. “Best laid plans of mice, men, and neocons…” Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jan 13 2023 21:56 utc | 113 Ironically, the most important news of our day is what Russia is doing in and around the Donbas. Posted by: young | Jan 13 2023 22:05 utc | 114 Boo @ 109
The are not going to roll into Ukraine across the fields in a giant tank and infantry column, they are already being introduced into the theater a few companies at a time, along civilian routes, have been for a while now, their equipment is coming separately in the guise of aid to Ukraine. At some point it will all come together. Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jan 13 2023 22:05 utc | 115 @LightYearsFromHome Posted by: Boo | Jan 13 2023 22:08 utc | 116 “remains dangerous for Russian planes flying at bomb-dropping altitudes” Posted by: nothing but the trut | Jan 13 2023 22:15 utc | 117 The next Russian missile barrage may be waiting for the targets to muster at the Polish Ukraine border. Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 13 2023 22:22 utc | 118 WJ | Jan 13 2023 21:54 utc | 108 Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2023 22:28 utc | 119 nothing but the trut @ 114
S-300s reach waay up. Among Russia’s many mistakes in 1991 was gifting a huge pile of high quality durable weapons to the ex-Warsaw pact pals, maybe hoping, “no hard feelings” for the communist years. At least they took the nukes back. Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jan 13 2023 22:28 utc | 120 In response to comments about missle strikes to the energy infrastructure. Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jan 13 2023 22:29 utc | 121 Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 13 2023 21:22 utc | 95 Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2023 22:42 utc | 122 @69: Russia was in the middle of a civil war (1918-1922). Everyone got a piece of the action: Brits and Norwegians in the north, Japanese and Americans in the east, Czechs traversed the whole country west to east AND BACK. Poles too, OK, big deal. Posted by: TicketyBoo | Jan 13 2023 22:45 utc | 123 I want to finish off with alast impression of the reisner vids. Posted by: Orgel | Jan 13 2023 22:45 utc | 124 uncle tungsten @ 115 Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jan 13 2023 22:49 utc | 125 On Sean Penn’s support for Zelensky;
I find this strange given his anti-war stance in earlier years, for example his support of Ehren Watada’s conscientious objection to the Iraq war:
But, who is this man “Penn”?
… Funny, there’s that distinct pseudo-ethnic cultural link again … Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2023 22:51 utc | 126 Scott Ritter has a moving piece up on is Substack. He’s been banned from Twitter again – permanently. And his disarmament book tour is being derailed slightly thanks to his views on Ukraine.
– RSH Posted by: CharlesLutherThanos | Jan 13 2023 22:53 utc | 127 Arch Bungle @ 123
Penn, Bono, Zelensky, they are all possessed by Satan, that’s all you need to know. Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jan 13 2023 22:57 utc | 128 More whining about Russia not making war the NATO way that’s been replied to and explained to death over the last 8+ months. The answer–yet again–is Russia doesn’t war like NATO as we’ve seen by the strategy employed. We saw Russia employ “smart” bombs in Syria, and some have certainly been used in Ukraine. But the smart weapons of Russia’s choice are its missiles. If Russia’s goal was to completely flatten Ukie cities as NATO does, Russia could easily have done so. But Russia has a very different ethos and audience watching its actions whereas the Outlaw US Empire has never cared how many people it slaughters or who’s watching its crimes. And that difference is extremely important given the overall goal of defeating Parasitic Neoliberalism and its Dollar Hegemony.
This short excerpt from the conversation between Putin and Khabirov IMO carries great significance for it shines a light on the moralistic nature of Russian governance that isn’t found within Neoliberal nations. Khabirov is speaking: Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jan 13 2023 22:51 utc | 123 Posted by: Opport Knocks | Jan 13 2023 23:05 utc | 130 Any news (other than twitter and telegram) about the massive gas pipeline explosion on the line connecting Latvia and Lithuania. Posted by: Opport Knocks | Jan 13 2023 23:15 utc | 131 Damage to Ukrainian civilian and critical infrastructure exceeds $127 billion, said First Deputy Foreign Minister of Ukraine Emine Dzhaparova. Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jan 13 2023 23:18 utc | 132 Boo | Jan 13 2023 22:08 utc | 113 Posted by: olaf22 | Jan 13 2023 23:28 utc | 133 @ uncle tungsten | 17 Posted by: Dan Farrand | Jan 13 2023 23:29 utc | 134 @Peter AU1 #102:
Peter, you are wrong on this. Mikhail Zvinchuk, the founder and leader of the Rybar team, is part of that working group. Kots is not. There are 31 people in total in the group, see here: Posted by: S | Jan 13 2023 23:46 utc | 135 18 minutes ago: Finnish Parliament Speaker Cancels Visit to Turkey After Ankara Disinvites Swedish Rep [Sputnik]
Posted by: Laurence | Jan 13 2023 23:49 utc | 136 Cont’d from #132 Posted by: S | Jan 13 2023 23:50 utc | 137 LIghtYearsFromHome @129 Posted by: polarbear4 | Jan 13 2023 23:53 utc | 138 This Vad interview is not as critical or positive (from a anti war/Russian perspective) as it seems. Posted by: C | Jan 14 2023 0:03 utc | 139 Expecting Russian aviation to behave like it’s Western counterpart misses the point, it never was or will be a mirror of NATO because of a substantial difference in doctrine. NATO, as has being recently shown, is heavily reliant on it’s aviation assets to achieve any significant operational results. Doctrine, forged in the later part of WW2 and the Cold War, slowly but surely, reversed the relationship making ground forces a subsidiary of the fast movers. Bean counters and high tech snake oil sellers encouraged the trend, as ground forces could be cut and the money spent on evermore expensive and growing social programmes and pockets could be stuffed with evermore expensive lobbying from the MIC. Posted by: Milites | Jan 14 2023 0:04 utc | 140 @131 I think Wagner Group exemplifies the views of Vladimir Zhirinovsky who died last year. An unapologetic Russian nationalist. Posted by: dh | Jan 14 2023 0:05 utc | 141 karlof1 | Jan 13 2023 22:57 utc | 126 Posted by: olaf22 | Jan 14 2023 0:08 utc | 142 A winning number of modern 1st-class tanks– Posted by: Elmagnostic | Jan 14 2023 0:16 utc | 143 Milites @137– “Why do any of you think the Russians care about saving lives? They have fired millions of unguided shells and rockets at Ukrainian cities. Posted by: Ed | Jan 14 2023 0:20 utc | 145 Kyiv shows signs of desperation. Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jan 14 2023 0:29 utc | 146 I wonder what happened to the western intel services prediction that “Russia will close its borders”? Still not happened. Posted by: HERMIUS | Jan 14 2023 0:35 utc | 147 Posted by: Elmagnostic | Jan 14 2023 0:16 utc | 140 Posted by: unimperator | Jan 14 2023 0:38 utc | 148 Dan Farrand #131 Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 14 2023 0:47 utc | 149 I see the usual death freaks and ghouls have shown up on MoA celebrating the tactical victory at Soledar as if it was the end of WWII. And of course it’s “because Russia cares” that it takes 6 months to take an insignificant village. Posted by: Muthaucker | Jan 14 2023 0:53 utc | 150 Elmagnostic @140–
And as we’ve discussed here, those AFVs will all be turned to scrap at many places as they are transported to the FEBA, although IMO many will be deployed around Kiev, which also IMO won’t be directly attacked. Over on RT they’re heading off the thing with Wagner Group. This is good. I hope I’m not being repetitive. Posted by: chunga | Jan 14 2023 0:58 utc | 152 Kiev regime continues committing more crimes. Posted by: unimperator | Jan 14 2023 1:09 utc | 153 Stranger things have happened, for example it appears the US is now run by ethnic Ukrainians … Posted by: Doug Hillman | Jan 14 2023 1:12 utc | 154 Tuberculosis in Ukraine. Posted by: Melaleuca | Jan 14 2023 1:12 utc | 155 Posted by: unimperator | Jan 14 2023 0:38 utc | 145 Posted by: paddy | Jan 14 2023 1:17 utc | 156 S | Jan 13 2023 23:46 utc | 132
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 14 2023 1:18 utc | 157 s, just saw your second link and had a quick scan through it. Looks to cover the same issues as were described to Putin in the meeting at my link so I assume they are all part of the same group? Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 14 2023 1:27 utc | 158 inspector general @69 Posted by: oldhippie | Jan 14 2023 1:28 utc | 159 Finland to EU. We’ll show you our Leopards if you show us yours. You guys go first. Posted by: dh | Jan 14 2023 1:32 utc | 160 The UNSC: UKR is offering a Peace Summit if Russia capitulates.
USNATOUKR are proven not agreement inclined. Fool me once. Posted by: Likklemore | Jan 14 2023 1:32 utc | 161 Melaleuca | Jan 14 2023 1:12 utc | 152 Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 14 2023 1:33 utc | 162 ‘unboxed and repackaged’ and re-exported
Why? The mental midgets managing the Price Cap Coalition (G7’s term of art; look it up) sanctions are well aware (1) RF has evaded P&I Club re-insurance hazard by sea, (2) diverted crude from “unfriendlies” to “friendlies” anywhere else by pipe and tanker; (3) RF crude principal buyers are refininery operators in GCC, OPEC-Africa, Türkiye, China, India, Indonesia, etc; and (4) operators sell spot and forward orders of RF crude “distallates” on the open market—which is how G7 (supposedly excluding net importer US) procures fuel they cannot produce domestically. Knowing very well by now (following the EPIC Black Sea bottle-neck demo w/e 10 Dec orchestrated by Türkiye) that port stationed “professional services” self-reporting is impractical, ergo unenforceable, the Price Cap Coalition carved out a big ass indemnity for their “reliable” global “energy” brokers. Posted by: sln2002 | Jan 14 2023 1:49 utc | 163 Likklemore | Jan 14 2023 1:32 utc | 158 Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 14 2023 1:56 utc | 164 @ Posted by: b | Jan 13 2023 17:42 utc | 28 Posted by: BroncoBilly | Jan 14 2023 2:00 utc | 165 Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jan 13 2023 22:22 utc | 115 “targets to muster at the Polish Ukraine border” Posted by: Bill Smith | Jan 14 2023 2:03 utc | 166 Posted by: BroncoBilly | Jan 14 2023 2:00 utc | 162 “With everything else being equal, this is a game changer.” Posted by: Bill Smith | Jan 14 2023 2:06 utc | 167 Posted by: sln2002 | Jan 14 2023 1:49 utc | 160 “The mental midgets managing the Price Cap Coalition” Posted by: Bill Smith | Jan 14 2023 2:09 utc | 168 Worth a look. Emmanuel Todd is an interesting thinker Posted by: Patroklos | Jan 14 2023 2:12 utc | 169 ‘Insignificant village’, you do realise it straddled an MSR? The UA General Staff certainly did, that’s why they lost 14 battalions trying to hold it. You do understand it was one of the lynch pins of the defence of Bakhmut, the Ukrainian Gov certainly do, that’s why they are still telling their citizens it’s being contested. Insignificant, As they say in The Prince’s Bride, ‘you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means’. Posted by: Milites | Jan 14 2023 2:15 utc | 170 Washington and its vassals still want Russian resources and always will, just not that Moscow making a huge profit from these. Posted by: Malwen | Jan 14 2023 2:16 utc | 171 dh | Jan 14 2023 1:32 utc | 157 Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 14 2023 2:26 utc | 172 Melaleuca @152– @Peter AU1 | Jan 14 2023 2:26 utc | 169 Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 14 2023 2:43 utc | 174 Patroklos | Jan 14 2023 2:12 utc | 166 Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 14 2023 2:47 utc | 175 “S-300s reach waay up” Posted by: nothing but the trut | Jan 14 2023 2:49 utc | 176 Don Bacon | Jan 14 2023 2:43 utc | 171 “Consider it done.” Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 14 2023 3:01 utc | 177 Myself, Escobar and others have tried to paint the Big Picture but so far have only traced the contours. With his latest SCF essay, Crooke splashes some color and perspective, “The 2023 War – ‘Setting the Theatre’”. At least we don’t need to reserve seats, although the ticket price is currently an open question. His intro sets flesh to bone:
I see my failure to attempt writing a movie or play script kept me from using that perspective to describe our ongoing drama. What’s the status with accessing SCF barflies; still troubles? Please reply if you do and I’ll post it here on some dead thread while posting its URL for easy access. Yes, his essay is that important. You’ll see Crooke again emphasize the issue of energy and other resources–commodities in Pozsar’s terms. Yes, Pozar holds a prominent place as we should take note it we haven’t yet, for he’s evidence that Big Money isn’t being fed the false narrative, which IMO is very important regarding how far the war is allowed to progress.
Personally, I’m gratified that Crooke focused on the Geopolitics and Geoeconomics of our drama instead of dallying with the various ideologies at play as he’s done in the past. Yet, psychology clearly remains in play as previously proffered making Crooke’s conclusion very realistic:
. @ Posted by: Bill Smith | Jan 14 2023 2:06 utc | 164 Posted by: BroncoBilly | Jan 14 2023 3:09 utc | 179 Ukraine’s healthcare system is poorer than Honduras’ but Russia’s wouldn’t match Morocco’s, though. Posted by: Malwen | Jan 14 2023 3:11 utc | 181 @174 This tank thing is very strange. Yes, Germany has given permission to other countries to export tanks but nobody seems in a hurry to be first. And will Germany be sending its own tanks? Who will crew them? Looks like a major escalation. I guess we’ll find out soon. Posted by: dh | Jan 14 2023 3:20 utc | 182 Bungle @75 (and others) Posted by: digital dinosaur | Jan 14 2023 3:23 utc | 183 Alistar Crooke defines the battle space of WWIII Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Jan 14 2023 3:29 utc | 184 @ my 171 Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 14 2023 3:31 utc | 185 karlof1 | Jan 14 2023 3:04 utc | 175 Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 14 2023 3:32 utc | 186 @182 According to this pressure is coming from Green and liberal parties in Germany for sending tanks. But no clear public majority. Posted by: dh | Jan 14 2023 3:43 utc | 189 @ uncle tungsten | Jan 14 2023 0:47 utc | 146 Posted by: John Kennard | Jan 14 2023 3:44 utc | 190 Nov 30: German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has said that Russia could no longer win the war in Ukraine on the battlefield.. . .here Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 14 2023 3:47 utc | 191 Bloomberg Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 14 2023 3:52 utc | 192 @188 No idea. Olaf has a lot on his plate. I personally would not care to be in one of those tanks. Posted by: dh | Jan 14 2023 3:53 utc | 193 Milites@167 Posted by: aristodemos | Jan 14 2023 3:53 utc | 194 dh | Jan 14 2023 3:20 utc | 179 Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 14 2023 3:54 utc | 195 S | Jan 13 2023 23:46 utc | 132 Posted by: Melaleuca | Jan 14 2023 3:58 utc | 196 Sputnik Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 14 2023 3:59 utc | 197 Bill Smith@164 Posted by: aristodemos | Jan 14 2023 3:59 utc | 198 @ aristodemos | Jan 14 2023 3:53 utc | 191 Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 14 2023 4:03 utc | 199 bill smith @163 Posted by: aristodemos | Jan 14 2023 4:07 utc | 200 |
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