Ukraine Open Thread 2023-08
Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.
The current open thread for other issues is here.
Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Posted by b on January 8, 2023 at 14:03 UTC | Permalink
next page »ECFR is not sure whether it is a good idea to invest more than 100 billion € in a "forever war":
"A current statement from the European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR), a think tank headquartered in Berlin, warns that Ukraine may succumb to state fragmentation and a “criminalized war economy.” The statement contests key demands of the strategy paper, entitled „Survive and Thrive,” also recently published by the ECFR, which sets the tone for a “long war” in Ukraine. It suggests investing more than €100 billion in the complete replacement of Ukrainian weaponry stocks with state-of-the-art Western-designed weapons."
www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/news/detail/9035
Posted by: p3t3r | Jan 8 2023 14:22 utc | 2
@daniel_s | Jan 8 2023 14:10 utc | 1
There were more than 700 military personnel in Dormitory No. 28 and more than 600 in dormitory No. 47. As a result of a massive missile strike on these points of temporary deployment of units of Ukrainian troops, more than 600 soldiers were destroyed.
Posted by: rk | Jan 8 2023 14:25 utc | 3
Summary of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation on the special military operation on the territory of Ukraine (08.01.2023)
The combined grouping of Russian troops (forces) in the areas of the Special Military Operation observed the declared ceasefire along the entire line of contact from 12 noon on 6 January until 24 noon on 7 January.
Throughout the entire period of the ceasefire, Ukrainian troops continued to conduct intensive shelling of populated areas and Russian positions.
◽️ In the Kupyan and Krasno-Limansky directions, the Ukrainian Armed Forces fired 78 artillery and mortar rounds.
◽️ The enemy used large-caliber artillery for shelling 155 times in the Soledar, Avdiivka, and Mariinsk directions.
◽️ Over 160 large caliber shells and 20 multiple rocket launchers were fired by Ukrainian forces into residential areas of Donetsk.
◽️ In Zaporizhzhia region, the enemy fired artillery fire 89 times.
◽️ Ukrainian artillery was used 55 times in the Kherson and Krivoy Rog directions.
💥 Retaliatory fire from Russian troops suppressed Ukrainian artillery, which was used to shell populated areas.
💥 After the end of the ceasefire on the Kupyansk direction, Russian troops hit concentrations of AFU manpower and equipment near Novoselovskoye in the Luhansk People's Republic and Sinkovka in the Kharkiv region. More than 30 Ukrainian servicemen, an infantry fighting vehicle, an armored personnel carrier and two vehicles were destroyed.
💥 In addition, two enemy sabotage and reconnaissance groups were destroyed in the areas of Kotlyarovka, Kharkiv Oblast, and Novoselovskoye, Luhansk People's Republic.
◽️ In the Krasno-Limansky direction, Russian units after the end of the ceasefire carried out artillery strikes against two AFU assault groups in the areas of Chervonaya Dibrova of the Lugansk People's Republic and Serebryanka of the Donetsk People's Republic, as well as concentrations of enemy manpower and equipment in the areas of Makiivka and Stelmakhovka of the Luhansk People's Republic. As a result of the strikes, more than 50 Ukrainian servicemen, three armored fighting vehicles, a pickup truck and a vehicle were destroyed. In addition, Ukrainian armed forces sabotage and reconnaissance groups were destroyed in the areas of Artemivka and Serebryanka settlements.
◽️ In the Donetsk direction, Russian artillery strikes thwarted an enemy attempt by up to a company of the 54th AFU Mechanized Brigade to counterattack Russian troop positions in the direction of the Spornoye settlement of the Donetsk People's Republic. Up to 70 Ukrainian servicemen, two armored combat vehicles and a pickup truck were destroyed.
◽️ In the South Donetsk direction near Novomikhailovka, Vladimirovka, Pavlovka and Neskuchnoye settlements of the Donetsk People's Republic, actions of Ukrainian armed forces sabotage and reconnaissance groups were suppressed. More than 40 Ukrainian servicemen, an armored personnel carrier and three vehicles were destroyed.
💥 Strikes by tactical and army aviation, rocket and artillery forces hit the depots of rocket and artillery weapons and ammunition of the 95th Airborne Assault Brigade and 60th Mechanized Brigade of the AFU in the areas of Krasny Liman and Konstantinovka settlements of the Donetsk People's Republic, as well as 84 artillery units in firing positions, live personnel and military equipment in 117 areas.
💥 In the course of the counterbattery fight, artillery crews of the howitzer battery of the 59th motorized infantry brigade and Grad multiple rocket launchers at firing positions in the areas of Karlovka and Konstantinovka of the Donetsk People's Republic were defeated.
💥 Russian Air Force fighter aircraft shot down five Ukrainian air force planes in 24 hours.
◽️ A Ukrainian Su-27 fighter jet was shot down near the village of Lozovoye, Kharkiv region.
◽️ A Ukrainian air force Su-24 aircraft was shot down near the settlement of Izyum, Kharkiv region.
◽️ Two Ukrainian Su-25 aircraft were shot down near the settlements of Mykolaypillya and Novy Donbass.
◽️ A Ukrainian MiG-29 aircraft was shot down near the Veseloye settlement of the Donetsk People's Republic.
💥 Anti-aircraft defense forces destroyed five Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles near Patalakhovka, Kuzemovka, Kuzmino, Kreminna and Pshenichne settlements of the Luhansk People's Republic.
💥 In addition, 10 HIMARS and Uragan MBLRS rockets were intercepted in the areas of Kreminna of the Luhansk People's Republic, Orekhov of Zaporizhzhia region, Stepne of the Donetsk People's Republic and Donetsk city.
💥 An American anti-radar HARM missile was shot down near Kurdyumovka settlement of Donetsk People's Republic.
!!!◽️ In response to the criminal strike of the Kiev regime, in the first minutes of January 2023, the command of the United Group of Russian Forces carried out a retaliatory operation against the Russian soldiers' temporary deployment point in the settlement of Makeyevka, Donetsk People's Republic.
◽️ During the past 24 hours, Russian reconnaissance assets uncovered and reliably confirmed through several independent channels the temporary deployment points of the AFU military personnel in the city of Kramatorsk.
◽️ There were over 700 Ukrainian servicemen in dormitory #28 and over 600 Ukrainian servicemen in dormitory #47.
💥 As a result of a massive missile strike on these locations of temporary deployment of AFU units, over 600 Ukrainian servicemen were destroyed.
📊 A total of
365(+5) aircraft,
199 helicopters,
2,848(+5) unmanned aerial vehicles,
400 surface-to-air missile systems, (Each AD Radar destroyed, no(Soviet pre '91) spares/replacements, effectively: Unclaimed Kills)
7,449(+8) tanks and other armored combat vehicles,
972 multiple rocket launcher combat vehicles,
3,787 field artillery and mortar guns, and
7,965(+8) pieces of special military vehicles.
Posted by: Summary | Jan 8 2023 14:27 utc | 4
THE BATTLE OF WINDS: NATO vs. EURASIA
A major geopolitical battle is being fought in the skies over the EU between North Atlantic and Eurasian weather systems. The outcome of this battle may determine the fate of the world for decades.
If North Atlantic (L on the map) prevails, Europe will get mild weather and heavy winds. There will be an abundance of wind power. Electricity prices in Germany will be negative. If the Eurasian high pressure systems (H) prevail, Europe will freeze. Clear skies bring no wind. Electricity prices may reach 4000 €/MWh. There will be rolling blackouts throughout Europe. Natural gas will be needed for heating and the storages may run out before spring. Eurasian high pressure dominated most of December. The new year has seen Atlantic winds advancing.
NATO and the EU have placed all their bets on the North Atlantic low pressure systems prevailing. If North Atlantic wins, Europe and its war effort are saved. If Eurasia wins, Europe will have to beg Putin for more gas.
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jan 8 2023 15:06 utc | 5
@p3t3r
thx!
(the English archive of their site is apparently free. German is not. Which is good to know. That way I don´t have to check every single day.)
Posted by: AG | Jan 8 2023 15:16 utc | 6
Never Believe Anything Until It Is Officially Denied
Reuters - No sign of casualties at site of strikes Russia says killed hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers
...
Oleksandr Honcharenko, Kramatorsk's mayor, said earlier on Sunday that the attack had damaged two educational facilities and eight apartment buildings and garages but that there had been no casualties.
Posted by: Passerby | Jan 8 2023 15:16 utc | 7
Judging from todays MOD report, one gets the idea that Russian's didn't waste time or effort during the "cease fire", either. They observed where the next ukro attack groups would pile up and bombed them after a while.
Posted by: unimperator | Jan 8 2023 15:23 utc | 8
The reports of 600+ dead from a strike seem unrealistic, which is not the same as saying they aren’t true.
The reports from Soledar are probably more consequential given that a difficult but stable situation for the AFU has gone near critical in three days. If the situation isn’t stabilized very soon, two out three routes to supply and/or withdraw from Bakhmut can be cut. And if even half the reports about throwing all available reinforcements are true, then the situation can become critical faster than the AFU can reasonably react.
The question for the Russian side is whether it has forces prepared to maximally exploit a major break in the lines or if it will just roll them back and reset. Note that each line further back is going to be less defensible than the previous. And not much west of the Soledar-Bakhmut line is fairly open ground rather than settlement agglomerations.
Posted by: Lex | Jan 8 2023 15:25 utc | 9
unimperator | Jan 8 2023 15:23 utc | 8
5 planes destroyed means they were attacking during the ceasefire. What did they expect?
Petri Krohn | Jan 8 2023 15:06 utc | 5
In your dreams, the wind energy will save the industry or warm houses?
Posted by: rk | Jan 8 2023 15:27 utc | 10
Re-posting(edited) from tail-end of previous Ukraine thread ...
Something am uncertain many fully comprehend:
Ubiquitous use of drones, even modified unarmed commercial, means the entire FEBA is largely under virtual constant but also real-time directed local tactical & operational aerial surveillance. Any movement, any Assembly or Forming-Up of formations re Advance, Withdrawal, re-deployment is typically promptly detected and responded to. Not so in past high-intensity conventional conflicts.
RF has the advantage re Air Dominance & overwhelming integrated/layered AD that can reach out hundreds of Kms. All the same ...
IE, AFU soldiers are daily KIA/WIA, individually, inside their trench works by remote controlled precision drone drops of a single pinpoint flared grenade, from a carousel magazine. No defense against. No way to evade. Nowhere to hide.
Another aspect is traditional Military Doctrine/s are now flawed re tactical operations. Why ? Use of terrain & features is now of limited value re Camouflage, Concealment, Cover(CCD), Dead-Ground/Reverse Slopes (Defilade), etc re assumption of enemy ground based Line-of-Sight(LOS), due ubiquitous surveillance drones.
Fighter aircraft were introduced to counter the rather major Combat Multiplier of Observation balloons & Observation aircraft in WWI.
IE, apart from existing myriad assets, RF has now deployed two new types of, by design, military grade ground 'Tethered Drones' which now perform the WWI role of Observation balloons, yet are virtually undetectable at altitude, are remote controlled & transmit/respond in real-time over encrypted secure EW resistant links (fixed line & rf comms). US/NATO/AFU have yet to display full comprehension of what all this means re existing doctrine, therefore current embedded training, tactics & operational art.
Sauron, tactically/operationally, regardless of non-realtime overflight Sats, notionally sees all at & somewhat beyond the FEBA. This is a large part of continual AFU significant losses over last 11 months & why AFU formations Forming-Up preparatory to Advance or Withdrawal, or mobile on the Advance to Contact are observed, giving advance warning, subsequently disrupted/destroyed/degraded by ranged fires on approach to/withdrawal from, RF defensive positions/formations ... before they can deploy to commence their Assault. If persist regardless, the result is typical. Failure.
Ground level assumptive use of LOS CCD & LOS use of terrain/features is now of minor significance both in static positions yet especially crucially during movement/maneuver, retrograde & advance to contact. This is much more significant than myriad 'consumable' one-time-use ordnance of individual suicide/attack drones re implications for conduct of conventional ground forces warfare, a major Combat Multiplier, IMV.
The belligerent party/s who attains & retains Theater Air Supremacy or Dominance on a battlefield is the beneficiary.
The advantage is very heavily weighted to ... one side only. The belligerent that attains & retains Theater Air Supremacy or Dominance. Tethered drones(non-consumable) just as for WWI Obs Balloons operate just to the immediate rear of FEBA deep under the umbrella/cover of the Supreme or Dominant Integrated/Layered AD & Air Force assets (RuAF).
Major paradigm shift.
@ Summary | Jan 8 2023 14:27 utc | 4
Correction: 📊 A total of = 📊 In total, since the beginning of the special military operation destroyed ((+?) over preceding 24hrs):
Missing the highlighted text & Comment. ;)
Cheers & Prost!
A very interesting short documentary on how the Kiev regime altered the children's curriculum to make them hate Russia and love the West and the Nazis
This was a very well planned set of changes, fully integrated with the US, NATO (handbook on how "NATO is more than just defence" taught in schools), and the Soros foundation. So sad how fast children can be turned against their own culture and Slavic brotherhood. This helps us understand why Putin's hopes for early in the SMO were dashed by the level of Ukrainian resistance. This was just in the schools, same was happening on television, in film, radio etc.
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jan 8 2023 15:06 utc | 5
Scientists have been long saying that the so-called Gulf stream system, which transports warm weather to the north from the south atlantic is ceasing up. That should mean that warm water circulation slows down, which could cause colder winters in the western European peninsula. But on what time scale and what magnitude it will happen is up for debate but it seems to be happening.
Posted by: unimperator | Jan 8 2023 15:45 utc | 13
No great insights from me today. Just that I think Mr. Putin needs to get ready and execute the big push to put these Ukie Bandera Fascists down for the count. War has gone on too long and Putin needs to step up the game.
Posted by: Peter Kurten | Jan 8 2023 15:49 utc | 14
More than 600 Ukrainian troops killed in ‘retaliation operation
Yeh, sure thing, along with the five Ukrainian planes shot down in one day. Look at the images, no sleeping bags, mattresses, foam pads, clothing, boots, cans and food wrappers, not a single plastic water bottle, no arms, no backpacks, not a single wet pair of sock set out to dry, not a single sign of recent habitation. The building could not be more cleaned out, looks like it was "Ready To Rent - Move In Tomorrow!".
Not a crane, front loader, not a shovel in sight either, or any vehicle of any type working or destroyed in the parking lot. Maybe the 600 soldiers marched there, then sat there while food and supplies for 600 men arrived by Sherpa?
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/28009
When the RF compound in Makееvka was hit there where images of the rubble with cranes and men all around for days afterwards. RF here hit an empty building, obviously, who's going to crowd a ton of men into a building right after Makееvka?
Kramatorsk looks to me like a big bold lie to ameliorate the disaster of Makееvka. I don't hold it against the RF, just war propaganda tit for tat, nothing new, but sad waste of expensive missiles. I'm pointing out never believe anything from the military no matter what side they are on or who you support, don't believe cops either, same mindset.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jan 8 2023 16:04 utc | 15
MOD of Russia:
As a result of the criminal attack of Kiev regime, in the first minutes of January 2023, against the location of temporary deployment of Russian military personnel near Makeyevka (Donetsk People's Republic), the command of the combined group of troops carried out a retaliatory operation.
Could anyone explain to me why the Makeyevka attack was considered by the MOD of Russia as a criminal one?
Posted by: Salvi | Jan 8 2023 16:12 utc | 16
@Salvi | Jan 8 2023 16:12 utc | 16
Could anyone explain to me why the Makeyevka attack was considered by the MOD of Russia as a criminal one?Civilian casualties?
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 8 2023 16:18 utc | 17
@daniel_s #1
@rk #3
Russian Telegram channel Voennyy Osvedomitel on “600 dead Ukrainians”:
Let’s talk about “bullshitting.”This phenomenon, which deeply affects our armed forces (and not only them), in recent months has become an active cause for discussion and condemnation both on our channel and among our colleagues. False briefings, reports forged at every level, meaningless reports and impunity for those who carry out these activities have long been a constant companion of current events.
For example, we are already accustomed to the fact that Mr. Konashenkov in his briefings destroyed almost more HIMARS pieces than were delivered to the Ukraine and have already shot down 4 times more Ukrainian Su-25 attack aircraft than the Ukraine had. However, sometimes the desire to cover one’s ass reaches incredible heights. And now, in an attempt to win back points in media space after the attack of the Armed Forces of Ukraine on the location of our soldiers in Makeevka, the Ministry of Defense issued an “operation retaliation,” striking at the location of Ukrainian soldiers in Kramatorsk.
Rocket attacks on the night of January 8 fell on the 28th and 47th schools in Kramatorsk, where enemy soldiers were quartered. As can be seen from the results from the spot, direct hits on the buildings were never achieved—the missiles hit either the ground nearby or neighboring garages, breaking windows and damaging the wall lining of schools.
It is not clear to us who and for what reason decided that 600 Ukrainian soldiers died inside at once, as the building was not actually hit (even the light remained on). It is not clear how this was reported and at what level they decided to “bullshit,” but we have what we have. Instead of the real destruction of the enemy personnel, which would have been a worthy response, an purely media operation of retaliation was invented.
If someone wants to inflict retribution for the death of Russian soldiers, then for this, firstly, it is necessary to punish those responsible for their massive concentration in the missile range, and secondly, to destroy the enemy preemptively and accurately, without timing it to any events.
Posted by: S | Jan 8 2023 16:19 utc | 18
"Could anyone explain to me why the Makeyevka attack was considered by the MOD of Russia as a criminal one?"
Because an informal "New Year Truce" was agreed on and the Ukries betrayed their word?
(just guessing...).
As for the 600 deaths it's apparently true.
Posted by: Nanker | Jan 8 2023 16:22 utc | 19
from the not Ukraine thread:
Clip of a 1997 Biden speech on NATO expansion. In it he says the Russians told him they were threatened by it and it might force them to ally w/ China. Biden laughs and says, 'Good luck - and try Iran too!' This debacle is 30-years in the making.//
comment (nothing new, just a recap):
The US position is that Ukraine is a sovereign country and can decide if it wants to join NATO. That has run up against the threat of that change, added to the general NATO move eastward, against which Russia has needed to respond with force. This ought to be understood by the US given the many US assaults on faraway Asian and African nations which supposedly threatened US national security.
PS: I'd like to hear this point made strongly and repeatedly, as the US does with its position, in the media by someone from Russia, someone in the foreign ministry perhaps, although that seems to be asking a lot.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 8 2023 16:28 utc | 20
@ Petri Krohn Post 5
Some in this forum have mused over the delay of General Winter to show up for decisive action in UKR and it may not be tinfoil to speculate if weather tampering is in play.
In this US led NATO v. Russia war wherein the stakes are high, neither side dare loose. Any tool is on and all bets off.
The US is not averse. Recall the Atomic bombings of Nagasaki & Hiroshima, Japan?
Since treaties and conventions are not worth the "tisues" they are written on…. weather modification can be a tool of war.
Former Senator William S Cohen of Maine, a former Defense Secretary, (known not to be a Yes man, Wapo) admitted that there exists...
The 1977 International Treaty on environmental modification
signed in Geneva May 18, 1977
[Source Link: US sate.gov]
Convention on the Prohibition of Military or Any Other Hostile Use of Environmental Modification Techniques
[.] Both the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives held hearings, beginning in 1972, and the Senate adopted a resolution in 1973 calling for an international agreement "prohibiting the use of any environmental or geophysical modification activity as a weapon of war...."In response to this resolution, the President ordered the Department of Defense to undertake an in-depth review of the military aspects of weather and other environmental modification techniques. The results of this study and a subsequent interagency study led to the U.S. Governments’ decision to seek agreement with the Soviet Union to explore the possibilities of an international agreement.
During the summit meeting in Moscow in July 1974, President Nixon and General Secretary Brezhnev formally agreed to hold bilateral discussions on how to bring about "the most effective measures possible to overcome the dangers of the use of environmental modification techniques for military purposes." Three sets of discussions were held in 1974 and 1975, resulting in agreement on a common approach and common language.
In August 1975, the chief representatives of the U.S. and the Soviet delegations to the Conference of the Committee on Disarmament (CCD) tabled, in parallel, identical draft texts of a "Convention on the Prohibition of Military or any Other Hostile Use of Environmental Modification Techniques."[.] (emphasis added)
FWIW, Fast forward, post 1977: Chemtrails for starters. Economic War. Assets - foreign reserves - theft, all boundaries trampled are fair game.
So in 2022, the RF-UKR war, with desperate necons behind the curtain (one in particular with bags of stale cookies), a weather war cannot be ruled out. Russia must be defeated.
We, north of the 45 degree latitude, are puzzled that winter has not arrived. We turn off the heat during daytime!!! Never in my decades here. It can’t be ENSO; El Nino - southern oscillation, or the La Nina version.
@ All. Please do not use this post to divert to "Global warming" now called "Climate change" because most 'experts' on the topic have never heard of geology or geography. How does one determine the age of a tree?
Posted by: Likklemore | Jan 8 2023 16:29 utc | 21
Russia needs to do a quick kill and regime change in Ukraine, partition it into a friendlier east and a hopeless west Ukr that can provide all the humans for trafficking to the west. Russia should use the forces of the east Ukr to increase the deterrence against NATO.
So, avoid killing unnecessarily, do a blitz attack on Kiev and do regime change and partition.
Posted by: nothing but the trut | Jan 8 2023 16:34 utc | 22
@Salvi #16:
Could anyone explain to me why the Makeyevka attack was considered by the MOD of Russia as a criminal one?
It’s just a stupid propagandistic phrase written by a stupid person. There’s a war going on, so obviously there’s nothing “criminal” in killing as many enemy troops as possible. What’s criminal, though—as in criminal negligence—is concentrating so many troops in one place.
Posted by: S | Jan 8 2023 16:36 utc | 23
@Likklemore | Jan 8 2023 16:29 utc | 21
We, north of the 45 degree latitude, are puzzled that winter has not arrived.Wrong, "we" have more snow than we have had for more than a decade. I don't know where to put it.
The weather fluctuates, that's normal.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 8 2023 16:42 utc | 24
re: phones in battle.
The Idiocracy we live in:
Warning +18, bloody
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/27956
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jan 8 2023 16:50 utc | 25
@18
Suspicion confirmed -- take all self-centered claims of success on the battlefield with a grain of salt.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 8 2023 16:53 utc | 26
@ Posted by: Lex | Jan 8 2023 15:25 utc | 9
Note that each line further back is going to be less defensible than the previous. And not much west of the Soledar-Bakhmut line is fairly open ground rather than settlement agglomerations.
Indeed. As the long prepared/enhanced entrenchments are overrun, the situ for AFU just gets evermore worser(sic).
Note, AFU has long lost the logistical ability to conduct mass maneuver or even mass re-deployment out of other subsequently threatened/compromised flanking fixed positions along the Contact Line. Insufficient IFVs/APCs yet especially simply trucks/vehicles let alone refueling tankers & pre-positioned mass fuel stocks.
@ Roger | Jan 8 2023 15:38 utc | 12
Along with the bi-annual basic military & combat training camps, with random exploding surprise grenades to psychologically 'condition', masked as supposed K6-12 School/Adventure camps. Everything from Mil obstacle courses, grenade ranges, marksmanship, to field stripping & maintenance of pistols, Sniper Rifles, AKs, LMGs & RPGs. :(
@ LightYearsFromHome | Jan 8 2023 16:50 utc | 25
Darwinism of the battlefield.
@ S | Jan 8 2023 16:36 utc | 23
What’s criminal, though—as in criminal negligence—is concentrating so many troops in one place.
So very, concerned ...
The AFU has been doing that and suffering the consequences for almost 11 months every other day. Barracks, training grounds, hotels, conferences for senior commanders & Staff, Mercs be congregating/re-deploying to new hotels/apartment buildings, transported, rail carriages, etc.
Didn't notice anyone carrying on relentlessly 24/7 for over a week now about each of those innumeral events. Compared to the accumulated yet even daily AFU losses ... frankly, so what. Being formally investigated. Brutally, bluntly, casualties of War.
Once Russia takes territory, do/can they use Ukraine trench systems and Salt Mines/tunnels to their own advantage?
If Bakmut and Soledar are well fortified, Wouldn't Russia be able to defend it as well as Ukraine? With the exception of buildings, because buildings are mostly destroyed.
Posted by: Ramsey Glissadevil | Jan 8 2023 16:55 utc | 28
Ukraine has said over and over for the last five months that it needs more tanks. So the US responded:
"The war in Ukraine is at a critical point right now, and we have to do everything we can to help the Ukrainians continue to resist Russian aggression," Laura Cooper, deputy assistant secretary of defense for Russia, Ukraine and Eurasia, said.
Now Ukraine needs armored vehicles and Germany, France, the Netherlands and the United States are sending them to the besieged nation, Cooper said. "In the case of the Bradley, what you are seeing is a recognition that this is the right time for us to provide this armored capability," she said. "This is the right time for Ukraine to take advantage of its capabilities to change the dynamic on the battlefield." . . .here
Oh well, it's a quick way to kill an infantry squad.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 8 2023 17:05 utc | 29
Bradleys are mostly outdated trash.
More PR gymnastics from US White House.
LoL
Posted by: Comandante | Jan 8 2023 17:14 utc | 30
@ Norwegian.
So are you dismissing the fact the technology exists.. to alter the weather?
Don't say "WRONG" I live north of the 45th. From your handle I assume you are in Norway. My experience, years ago, during a visit to Olso, there can be snow flurries in June. I had to buy sweaters and a coat there, the date.. June 24th.
And good for you that you have snow. It's January and we are looking at grass since November and the talk is; we are contemplating firing up the lawn mower. Ski Hills can't make enough artificial snow. It rains.
Posted by: Likklemore | Jan 8 2023 17:15 utc | 31
From what I've been reading, looks like this war will drag on for years, achieving the U$A's wet dream of bleeding Russia enough to destabilize the Russian economy, and give the U$A's multi-nationals an advantage.
No sweat, it's just business.
Greedy F'ing morons.......
Posted by: vetinLA | Jan 8 2023 17:18 utc | 32
we are already accustomed to the fact that Mr. Konashenkov in his briefings destroyed almost more HIMARS pieces than were delivered to the Ukraine
How many did UK deliver ?
How many did Norway send ?
How many did Germany send ?
How many did Italy send ?
Did US send any at all ?
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jan 8 2023 17:18 utc | 33
Ramsey Glissadevil @ 28
Once Russia takes territory, do/can they use Ukraine trench systems and Salt Mines/tunnels to their own advantage? If Bakmut and Soledar are well fortified, Wouldn't Russia be able to defend it as well as Ukraine? With the exception of buildings, because buildings are mostly destroyed.
I think the goal for Russia is to rebuild Bakhmut and all the other eastern cities as fast as possible like Mariupol, but yes good point, if they fall back Russia has plenty of strong, ready built fortifications. That could explain why the Ukrainians are fighting like all hell to hold onto it, the command understands that as bad as the meat grinder is now it'll be much worse trying to take it back - and they do want to take it back.
BTW how RF goes about rebuilding the Donbas especially the western part pretty much obliges them to take over the whole country, otherwise the battle zones even if re-captured remain wastelands for decades like towns in Syria.
A Korean demilitarize zone isn't going to cut it, the West will push that green line into the red relentlessly like in Syria. There could be a comprehensive ex-Warsaw Pact peace deal like Russia asked for since 1997, any bets on that? /sarc.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jan 8 2023 17:30 utc | 34
re: Bradley
NBC News -- Feb 13, 2020
The Army decided to replace Bradley Fighting Vehicles 17 years and $22b ago. They still don't have a prototype.
This convoluted road to nowhere stems from the Pentagon shifting the goal posts, having unrealistic expectations and refusing to accept what industry offers.
. .a few flaws have troubled the Bradley over time: It’s heavier than similar vehicles in other armies due to the armor that’s been added over the years to protect the troops it carries, which in turn has left its engine and electrical systems underpowered. It doesn’t have room for a full nine-person squad, and its floor wasn’t designed to protect against improvised explosive devices and mines. . .here
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jan 8 2023 17:30 utc | 35
Likklemore | Jan 8 2023 17:15 utc | 31
So are you dismissing the fact the technology exists.. to alter the weather?
You can't read that from my post, I expressed no opinion on that question. You are not alone living I living north of the 45th. I said wrong on what I quoted . This year "we" have much more snow, much earlier than normal (max us usually in February&March), I have to go back to ~2010 or maybe early 1990s to find conditions like we have had the last week. The fluctuations in winter weather are large from year to year, and it has always been that way.
Weather is very localized. The current conditions in Ukraine cannot be judged from looking at the latitude only.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 8 2023 17:39 utc | 36
@ Paul Greenwood | Jan 8 2023 17:18 utc | 33
I don't think there are/were HIMARS in Norway.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 8 2023 17:41 utc | 37
Posted by: Likklemore | Jan 8 2023 17:15 utc | 31
Odd. I live right about at the 44th. We've had a lot of warm weather here, but "fire up the lawn mower!" Um, no. Nothing growing for a while now -- not even my Russian Red Kale.
The sun is just to low in the sky to stimulate any visible growth, at least of anything I grow here, including.
And of course, nothing dries out in this interminable mud season. 😒
Posted by: Mary | Jan 8 2023 17:43 utc | 38
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jan 8 2023 17:18 utc | 33
USA said it provided 20 Himars to Ukraine. That probably means they have provided 80 Himars to Ukraine, which is why more have been destroyed than officially sent.
Posted by: unimperator | Jan 8 2023 18:01 utc | 39
On the eve of the Orthodox Christmas, representatives of the State Bureau of Investigation and the Security Service of Ukraine arranged for the opening of graves in cemeteries near Kazachya Lopan, Velikiy Burluk, Shypovatoye and Khatnoye (Kharkov region), where local citizens were buried who died of natural causes during the deployment of Russian troops in these areas from February 24 to September 6, 2022.
After the exhumation, the bodies of Ukrainian citizens were further disfigured and dumped into specially prepared ‘pits’ on the outskirts of these settlements to create false ‘evidence’ of alleged ‘torture’ and ‘shootings’ of civilians by Russian servicemen.
"Slow is best" + "Always retreat" strategy deserves such fakes. Sorry.
Posted by: rk | Jan 8 2023 18:02 utc | 40
The New Years eve attack by Ukraine on the command group of the Second Guards Tank Army by NATO was going to initiate a response...the buildings showing the Russian retaliation on the 2 battalion bivouacs are supplied by Ukrainian sources...not after action or battle damage assessment by Russian sources. That far to the East no MLRS system was used...rather multiple cruise missiles which have good accuracy and massive high explosive warheads. Wait till the dust clears. Secondly translation from Russian into English is sometimes problematic... Criminal might not be the correct adjective...but you know what they where trying to say surely
Posted by: Joe | Jan 8 2023 18:02 utc | 41
re: LightYearsFromHome Post 34
Good answer, Light Year. Does Ukraine has a soldier-manpower-casualty tipping point...where war would end. I saw an estimate (by Colonel Anatoly Matviychuk) that the highest possible Ukraine mobilization was a total of 2.5-3.0 million. If that estimate is accurate...how many casualties could Ukraine suffer before the war would end?
Posted by: Ramsey Glissadevil | Jan 8 2023 18:03 utc | 42
In my opinion:
Calling the attack 1 minute after New Years criminal was borderline cringeworthy. On the other hand, taking advantage of people trying to talk to loved ones IS pretty disgusting. Criminal was not a good word choice imho.
The 600 deaths - if that is made up, then Russian MOD takes a large reputation hit. I have given Russia a LOT of credit for the trustworthiness of its MOD. When I fact check them, their information mostly checks out, and they dutifully post bad news for Ruusia in the same almost sterile way as they do good news.
In my opinion, the single best selling point that Russia has is the basic trustworthiness of its MOD.
Posted by: Woke American | Jan 8 2023 18:04 utc | 43
Sorry to repeat, but those of you looking to grok the Bradley go watch this, it's on the torrents, Netflix, Apple TV, etc. MoA peeps will have fun:
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jan 8 2023 18:04 utc | 44
@ Ramsey Glissadevil | Jan 8 2023 16:55 utc | 28
From a purely military perspective ... depends on the degree of physical destruction, the sighting & 'facing' of the entrenchments re terrain, features, approaches, observation, withdrawal/supply routes, fields of fire in a generally Westerly direction. Huge generalization ... occasionally yes, especially so whilst in contact/combat, otherwise, mostly no.
@ Don Bacon | Jan 8 2023 17:05 utc | 29
Oh well, it's a quick way to kill an infantry squad.
A reduced, 6 man/woman/other, infantry/conscript squad. It is, therefore, perfect for the 'bled white' AFUs needs.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jan 8 2023 17:30 utc | 34
I don't believe in this rumor of "Korean style peace deal". I think Zelensky et.al. are nobodies who are only making empty statements in the media to get paid.
Ukraine will become a large empty plot of land with a very large buffer and insulator between Poland and Novorrossija. USA will try to send trained terrorists through that land to commit terror attacks, and the buffer exists to bury them there and keep them from getting too close.
Posted by: unimperator | Jan 8 2023 18:06 utc | 46
Woke American @ 43
Up to you if you want to believe the MoD, but for your own good, don't believe cops 🙃
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jan 8 2023 18:12 utc | 47
Is TASS reliable? According to them Ukraine is also capable of embarrassing cockups - can shoot their own planes down.
Ukrainian air force MiG-29 plane that was downed near Kurakhovo, DPR, was downed by a Ukrainian Osa missile air defense system.
Posted by: olaff22 | Jan 8 2023 18:12 utc | 48
how many casualties could Ukraine suffer before the war would end?
Posted by: Ramsey Glissadevil | Jan 8 2023 18:03 utc | 42
War will last many years if the current idiotic strategy remains. Now in Donetsk they're shelling factories. A few days ago a big gas pipeline exploded, for some reason I couldn't find. Well known terrorists were filmed in Ukr, brought by US. And a new Bucha is prepared, thanks to team Shoigu. As long as all the proxies are well and all borders open, nothing will change. Syria 2 with a constant flow of terrorists taken from Ukr, trained in EU and collected by US from other countries, with unlimited supplies and long range weapons.
Posted by: rk | Jan 8 2023 18:24 utc | 49
@ Mary 38
That the joke here we comtemplate firing up the lawn mower.
= = = = =
Are there back channel negotiations?
RT has Kiev claiming:
Russia offering ‘Korea-style‘ peace deal
Moscow wants to formalize the status quo on the ground, Ukraine’s top security official saidRussia wants to impose a truce that would split Ukrainian lands, similar to how the Korean Peninsula is divided today, Aleksey Danilov, head of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council, has said, as quoted by the country’s media. His statement came after Moscow reiterated that peace negotiations are possible if Kiev recognizes Russia’s new territories.
"They are currently offering us a Korean option. On one side we will have certain Ukrainians, and on the other side we will have different Ukrainians," Danilov said in a TV interview on Sunday, according to Ukrainian news channel TSN.
The 1950–53 Korean War ended with a truce that formalized the 38th parallel as the de-facto border between North Korea and South Korea.
"I know for certain that one of the options they could offer us is the ‘38th parallel,'" Danilov said. He claimed that Dmitry Kozak, the deputy head of Russia’s presidential administration, has been speaking to EU politicians and "conveying the message that they are ready for many concessions in order to recognize the status quo and to force us into some kind of truce."
[.]
Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky unveiled a ‘peace formula’ in September, insisting that a resolution of the conflict is possible only if Moscow surrenders all of its newly incorporated regions. The Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics, together with two other former Ukrainian territories – the Kherson and Zaporozhye regions – became parts of Russia after holding referendums last September. Crimea did the same in 2014 in the wake of a coup in Kiev that year.Russia has called Zelensky’s terms unacceptable. President Vladimir Putin said in a phone call with his Turkish counterpart Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Thursday that negotiations with Kiev could only happen if Ukraine recognized "new territorial realities."
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said in late December that Ukrainian politicians were "incapable of negotiating" because "the majority are blatant Russophobes."
After Hollande and Merkel's confessionals .....coming clean,
talk is in indeed a waste of time until ALL goals accomplished. UKR is a member of NATO since 1996. They used the back door...this baby was born and is to be formally christened.
Posted by: Likklemore | Jan 8 2023 18:30 utc | 50
@S | Jan 8 2023 16:19 utc | 18
Quotes from a retarded channel. Useless post by S as usual
Posted by: rk | Jan 8 2023 18:36 utc | 51
@Joe | Jan 8 2023 18:02 utc
is correct, as he claims
translation from Russian into English is sometimes problematic... Criminal might not be the correct adjective...but you know what they where trying to say surely
because, Konashenko didn't use criminal (which would be криминальный), but
В ответ на преступный удар киевского режима в первые минуты января 2023-го года по пункту временной дислокации российских военнослужащих в населенном пункте Макеевка Донецкой Народной Республики командованием Объединенной группировки российских войск реализована операция возмездия.
which could be translated as criminal, maleficent, mafia-like, felonious ...
Posted by: BG13 | Jan 8 2023 18:41 utc | 52
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 8 2023 17:41 utc | 37
You are clearly a very uninformed voter.........
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jan 8 2023 18:43 utc | 53
It would be pretty inconceivable that Russia would settle for any peace agreement that would allow the West to rearm Ukraine, even if it was with a patchwork of dilapidated Cold War gear. It would also be an admission of defeat and trigger domestic instability.
None of the sanctions would be removed or seized funds returned, and the Donbass would be no safer than before. It would in fact, be Minsk 3.
In fact, if the West were truly willing to go all out, they could use the seized funds to rebuild the Ukrainian military and with the 300 billion, it could be remade into a force that could do serious damage given enough time.
So the whole idea is Russia seeking a peace agreement that doesn't involve Kiev being consigned to the dustbin of history is absurd given the price it would entail.
Posted by: Boo | Jan 8 2023 18:45 utc | 54
I forgot to add for the usual idiotS: Russia suspended repairs, spare parts for all their military airplanes and helicopters from unfriendly countries many months ago. And the factory from Ukr was destroyed. Now add airplanes and helicopters, see if the numbers match
Posted by: rk | Jan 8 2023 18:46 utc | 55
Mary, @38
Plenty of snow here at 44 N Latitude, more than a good number of years, hope to break our 3 year drought. I would have loved to give the Rus some of cold that arrived for real around the middle of Dec, ground plenty frozen now. The RF probably wouldn't want as much snow as we now have. I've never really been into snowshoes for walking around in the winter but maybe needed this year if the current pattern continues...
Posted by: DakotaRog | Jan 8 2023 18:55 utc | 56
@rk | Jan 8 2023 18:46 utc
the numbers of planes may very well add up. UA left the USSR with some 2000+ military planes. As the today mentioned number is 365 - there is plenty of room. Sure, some 20%-30% deviation is reasonable. Both numbers include transport planes like An-24/26, Il-76/78.
The claim, UA had only 200 operational at the beginning of the war don't contradict RU claims, as planes out of stock can be reintroduced via cannabalization or spare parts from abroad. Especially, if you espect a plane to not survive many sorties you may not look to deep into overdue maintenance cycles.
Posted by: BG13 | Jan 8 2023 19:04 utc | 57
@Paul Greenwood | Jan 8 2023 18:43 utc | 53
You are clearly a very uninformed voter.........I am not a voter, there is no party to vote for. And btw. It looks like M270 and Himars are not exactly the same thing.
Other than that, thanks for the info. That's why I am not voting.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 8 2023 19:08 utc | 58
Posted by: Boo | Jan 8 2023 18:45 utc | 54 The most practical would still be to declare Galicia independent, but, Install a Russian controlled government (and missiles) that way, there would be a "border" with the west and Russia wouldn't have to annex western Ukraine. Ukraine would then be partitioned with the most Russian areas( everything east of dnieper and up to krivoi rog) going to Russia and the rest to Belarus, but I still doubt wether Russia will really want to erase Ukraine.
Posted by: Phariah | Jan 8 2023 19:12 utc | 59
Boo @ 54
So the whole idea is Russia seeking a peace agreement that doesn't involve Kiev being consigned to the dustbin of history is absurd given the price it would entail.
The Korean deal wasn't a peace deal it was submission by both sides to stark reality. Mao had no desire to extend the PLA and liberate Korea only to keep the USA off its border, Truman had no desire to be the idiot President that started WW3 immediately after WW2.
To this day there has never been a peace deal, the war is still ongoing with a 70 year long truce, could restart tomorrow. IOW the DMZ agreement was forced by circumstance on both sides not an outcome anyone wanted. A DMZ is not something you choose it's a default condition. Just because it would be a miserable deal for both sides I wouldn’t write it off.
Question is what happens to Kharkov and Odessa, but then whatever does happen it has to be better than having your city wind up like Bakhmut or Mariupol.
Tough choices coming up soon.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jan 8 2023 19:21 utc | 60
Wagner group recruiting Afghan special forces troops abandoned by the US
https://tfiglobalnews.com/2023/01/07/russia-is-recruiting-afghan-commandos-that-the-us-abandoned/
Posted by: Krollchem | Jan 8 2023 19:27 utc | 61
Posted by: Roger | Jan 8 2023 15:38 utc | 12
«A very interesting short documentary on how the Kiev regime altered the children's curriculum to make them hate Russia and love the West and the Nazis This was a very well planned set of changes, fully integrated with the US, NATO (handbook on how "NATO is more than just defence" taught in schools), and the Soros foundation. So sad how fast children can be turned»
Not just children:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/ukraine-s-ex-president-petro-poroshenko-the-army-is-like-my-child-1.4885308
«The idea of Nato was “not very popular in Ukraine” to start, Poroshenko says, with just 16 per cent of Ukrainians supporting integration to Nato in 2013 right before he was elected president – but by the time he finished his term, 61 per cent did.»
What's what $5 billions buy, very good value for money.
«against their own culture and Slavic brotherhood.»
That "Slavic brotherhood" is just putinian hand-waving: there have been many civil wears among slav (and other) "brothers", e.g. serbs vs. croats etc.; what matter is interests.
Posted by: Blissex | Jan 8 2023 19:29 utc | 62
And good for you that you have snow. It's January and we are looking at grass since November and the talk is; we are contemplating firing up the lawn mower. Ski Hills can't make enough artificial snow. It rains.
Posted by: Likklemore | Jan 8 2023 17:15 utc | 31
Whether there's weather. California's Sierras are getting huge snow (snow water equivalents) and their Reservoirs are rapidly filling up, despite have been nearly drained in 2022.
Snow already at 80-90% of April 1st (full winter).
http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/products/swccond.pdf
Posted by: kupkee | Jan 8 2023 19:41 utc | 63
That "Slavic brotherhood" is just putinian hand-waving: there have been many civil wears among slav (and other) "brothers", e.g. serbs vs. croats etc.; what matter is interests.
Posted by: Blissex | Jan 8 2023 19:29 utc | 62
Not really. But Nationalism is something rather horrible:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e
Posted by: Vikichka | Jan 8 2023 19:41 utc | 64
Soo, the Russian MoD was caught red-handed lying about the killing of gazillions of Ukrainian troops in "revenge attacks" for the wipe out of 100 Russian troops in Makeevka.
Rockets failed to hit the buildings where Ukrainian troops supposedly stayed.
https://t.me/boris_rozhin/74754
Obviously they lied to pretend to the Russian people that they are "doing something".
With such disgusting corruption and incompetence, it's not surprising that Putin begs for negotiations and ceasefires every month or two.
That of course, happens after the big runs to the russian borders were explained as "an attempt at deescalating the conflict to serve negotiations" (at Kiev), and the "successful regrouping of the troops right according to the plan" (at Kharkov)..
Posted by: ObserverBG | Jan 8 2023 19:51 utc | 65
Dakota Rog@56
Coming from 47 N., I've been through that same sudden cold snap you experienced in S.D. Have long been following on a weekly basis, Dane Wigginton, who is probably the most deeply informed private individual on the longtime weather modification/control memes of the U$$A AirFarce. Though they claim to have shut down their monster tower array at Gakona, Alaska, I don't believe that for a moment. Likely, they also possess satellite based systems, which like Gokona HAARP, also beam low frequency ratio waves at the ionosphere.
Perhaps the most telling example of the powers of weather control mechanisms occurred a couple years back when that huge hurricane was initially making a beeline for Palm Beach, Florida, a place where there are several billionaire mansions per acre. "Can't have that!". So somehow, through the powers of "magic", that powerful force stalled out for two days and then made a 90 degree right-flank flip up towards the Canuckistani Maritime provinces.
There is zero doubt in my mind that weather weaponry is on an upper rung of the ladder of implements available to the Evil Empire. Russia lost their well developed capacity during the Yeltsin shutdown years. So for starters, Russia needs to employ their satellite weaponry to eliminate the Imperial ones which are a large factor in their weather war.
Posted by: aristodemos | Jan 8 2023 19:53 utc | 66
That "Slavic brotherhood" is just putinian hand-waving: there have been many civil wears among slav (and other) "brothers", e.g. serbs vs. croats etc.; what matter is interests.Posted by: Blissex | Jan 8 2023 19:29 utc | 62
Almost as easy as getting factions of Islam or African tribes to fight. The Khazarian Mafia in DC and London City knows divide and rule.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Jan 8 2023 19:58 utc | 67
Long time lurker here - first post. I appreciate the education at MOA and have learned much from the barflies, especially about this war (SMO) and the military and political issues involved. I did a post at https://folkpotpourri.com/eulogy-for-the-fallen-soldier/ that adds a perspective from the soldiers' tragic POV. Just trying to imagine what it must be like for those poor souls.
Posted by: Ozark Grandpa | Jan 8 2023 20:03 utc | 68
ObserverBG@65
Perhaps you are a Canuckistani or even U$$A Ukie, or maybe you have ingested too much boobtoob noose; but somehow you have managed to get things precisely bass-ackwards.
Ukraine holds the current world championship trophy for fake news, bullshit, false flags and overwhelming levels of corruption.
No contest.
Even the U$$A with its bribed and blackmailed pro$titicians and mass-media mind-control networks; can only look up with amazement and wonder at the utter falsity being broadcast by their puppet regime in Kiev.
Posted by: aristodemos | Jan 8 2023 20:05 utc | 69
LightYearsFromHome @47
I tend to believe the Russian MOD because, in the past, the times I am able to fact checked them, their reports were shown to be to accurate.
US sources not so much. Some resemble the Iraqi WMD lies from 20 years ago. The worst stories from US sources are the ones where media images are doctored to support their lies.
Posted by: Woke American | Jan 8 2023 20:05 utc | 70
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jan 8 2023 16:04 utc | 15
Some other comments on the site of the attacks.
https://twitter.com/YLEKuronen/status/1612093160343191553
Posted by: Bill Smith | Jan 8 2023 20:06 utc | 71
@BG13 Also "perfidious" , "wrongful" , "treacherous" , "maleficent" , "malfeasant" , "flagitous", or even just "tough" , etc.etc.
In other words 'wrong', but not necessarily 'criminal', which is an artifact of an attempted literal translation of a deeply proverbial and often metaphorical language.
Posted by: Hermit | Jan 8 2023 20:11 utc | 72
Just saying....criminal negligence charges need to be brought against the staff that put so many Russian troops, munitions, and fuel all in one place. HIMARS and the like arrive within minutes, no chance to find cover. Drones and cruise missiles on the other hand are detectable and sirens will sound....giving one some chance to find cover or evacuate buildings.....
What I noticed from vid of the RF strike on the 'merc hockey arena' last week...while everything was shredded, sleeping bags, cots, tables, personal effects, besides a lack of bodies (removed for optics?) there were no signs of blood...so while the living quarters were destroyed looks like the Mercs for the most part....escaped.
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jan 8 2023 20:11 utc | 73
Merkel and Hollande turned coats. That should be obvious.
They tried to keep the real Body Snatchers out as long as they could.
To keep the real Partnership of Ever Closer Union that could provide the Collective security and bargaining power of Old Europe intact and ready for the next century of Human development on Earth. Safe from the US hegemonic system and natzo imperial forces occupying Western Europe for nearly a century now.
Their replacements, Manny and the Mean Greenies took mere months to wreck most of these plans as soon as Mutti was ‘retired’.
The current crop of wormtongues in the employ of the hegemony are doing a fine job of screwing the ordinary majority of Europeans.
Yellow Vests are on the march against En Marche, E Macron…
The removal of German Industry to North America is a ‘fall back’ plan to some strange enclave from which the Nazis can stay safe in their claims of supremacy over the ‘Other’ peoples and Cultures of the World.
That smell? It’s a revolution not seen for centuries in Europe. That’s why the rabbits are running to their bolt holes in the West.
—————————-
600 & 700 Ukrops annihilated without evidence so far?
I remember when the Iranians sent some missiles to avenge Solemanis assassination to a US Base. Potus Trump claimed there were no casualties from the ‘Hangars’ that were hit.
Quickly disproved by the medical flights back to US bases. It takes years to build deep and massive bunkers….. is that the answer in this conundrum? Haven’t seen any footage of the strikes, anyone? These hypersonics move faster and Han a blink of the eye 🤔
Posted by: DunGroanin | Jan 8 2023 20:11 utc | 74
Posted by: Woke American | Jan 8 2023 18:04 utc | 43 "In my opinion, the single best selling point that Russia has is the basic trustworthiness of its MOD."
Are we supposed to believe these numbers:
199 helicopters (shot down)
How many helicopters did Ukraine start the war with? None of these sources come close to 199.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Air_Force
https://www.google.com/search?q=helicopters+of+the+ukraine+airforce&rlz=1C1RNKB_enUS524US526&oq=helicopters+of+the+ukraine+airforce&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i10i160l3j33i21j33i22i29i30.8137j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
https://www.wdmma.org/ukrainian-air-force.php
Unless the West sent a whole lot?
365(+5) aircraft (shot down)
Various sources on the internet show the Ukrainian Air Force started the war with about half of 365 number claimed shot down. How many has the West sent? Sure Ukraine fixed up a few non-flying ones that the Russians failed to destroy in the opening days, but that many?
Posted by: Bill Smith | Jan 8 2023 20:22 utc | 75
The Russians would not publicly state they hit something for 'revenge' propaganda. They would just wait until they got something real.
The fact that they would publicly state why they decided to attack troops in a warzone had me thinking they hit some western grouping. Or a warning?
The entire concept of training conscripts on the front lines and publicly announcing where they are is really fishy to begin with.
Posted by: OohCanada | Jan 8 2023 20:25 utc | 76
https://t.me/medvedev_telegram/245
Wow. De facto "Teddybear" just announced extralegal extraterritorial actions.
Posted by: Arioch | Jan 8 2023 20:41 utc | 77
I'm pro-Russia and hope they win. However, I do not believe for a second that Ukraine was stuffing 600+ soldiers into dormitories so close to the front line in Kramatorsk.
Posted by: Rhinoskerous | Jan 8 2023 20:43 utc | 78
The ground is now starting to freeze in the Donbas. It is about 1 month late this year. Soon the mud will turn to solid ground and Russia will have more options for their mobilizations.
Russia will attempt to quickly take out the rest of the Donbas before Ukraine can rearm and train new troops. After they accomplish this goal, anything could happen.
Meanwhile, the West will continue to escalate and then to escalate more. Ultimately, this leads to a nuclear launch. 2023 is going to be quite an interesting year!
Posted by: young | Jan 8 2023 20:45 utc | 79
Posted by: Bill Smith | Jan 8 2023 20:22 utc | 75
In the end, it's all a question of trust. Let's revisit the numbers in two weeks. In the past, I found that if the numbers are small (e.g. 2 Ukrainian aircraft) the Russian MoD numbers were spot; if the numbers are round numbers (e.g. 50 Ukrainian soldiers killed) the number tends to be 10% low.
I trust the Russian MoD more than I trust crime and unemployment numbers, consumer price index, or gross domestic product as given by own government, but I realize that is not saying much.
Posted by: Passerby | Jan 8 2023 20:48 utc | 80
" Posted by: Boo | Jan 8 2023 18:45 utc | 54 The most practical would still be to declare Galicia independent, but, Install a Russian controlled government (and missiles) "
Posted by: Phariah | Jan 8 2023 19:12 utc | 59 "
There's a glaring contradiction in your statement above.
Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | Jan 8 2023 20:51 utc | 81
@ aristodemos, #66
I haven't followed HARP actions much but have a good person who has. Let's try this on for a scenario. The U.S. is still the leading corn (maize) producer in the world but generally doesn't export more than 20% of its production-- my data is older so that may have changed. Ukraine grows a lot of corn but typically has had a greater percentage of its production exported primarily because its has less livestock feeding going on. Maybe the empire cartel wants to keep global corn prices at what they want to pay but if Ukie land is out for another corn growing season, the global trade volume needs to be maintained at the cartel's target amount. So break the US western cornbelt drought and have that production pick up the Ukie land slack and the global price for corn stays about the same as always. Maybe. Maybe not...
Posted by: DakotaRog | Jan 8 2023 20:52 utc | 82
Likklemore | Jan 8 2023 17:15 utc | 31
when president rexxon was replaced by president pompeo, rexxon started posting at MoA, by the name Norwegian. he blows with the wind on Ukraine and most everything else posted here. but don't talk about the weather. rexxon will tell you within 2 minutes that there is no such as scientific consensus.
Posted by: rjb1.5 | Jan 8 2023 20:53 utc | 83
@DakotaRog 56 @kupkee 63
Do you see any snow at all in these photos taken Jan. 7, 2023 at Link?
https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/tent-removal-notices-at-victoria-park-sparks-dispute-with-homeless-advocates-1.6221857 Latitude is at 43.25.
Many areas in Western N. America got snow bombed.
So far this winter here the Snow plough boys are saving lots of $$$.
And of the homeless, Shame. billions available for UKR.
Posted by: Likklemore | Jan 8 2023 20:53 utc | 84
Russians may start to assassinate Kiev's leaders now.
Posted by: Wokechoke | Jan 8 2023 20:55 utc | 85
The US/NATO is heavily invested in propaganda warfare. They are fighting with propaganda/disinfo for the minds of the Russian people to break up the Russian Federation by planting untruths in their heads.
The Russians are fighting an industrial kinetic war. They intend to resolve the issue with facts on the ground, not illusions in people's heads. They don't care what Americans and Europeans think because they know it doesn't matter what you think. Your promises and agreements cannot be trusted anyway.
Which of these two approaches to the conflict features lies as its principal weapon? Which is less served by lies?
There is little to nothing for the Russians to gain by lying, while untruths (lies) are how the West intends to achieve victory.
You can count on nearly 100% of what the US State Department and western presstitutes saying about the conflict being lies. Likewise, you can expect that most of what the Russian MoD says is close to the truth, as lies don't gain them anything.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 8 2023 21:05 utc | 86
An Italian reporter on the scene says there are just big craters in the soft earth in front of empty buildings where Russia reports claimed 600 and then 700 Ukrainian soldiers "demilitarized".
There is NO evidence nor sign of anyone killed at all and no ambulances at the scene. Russia often claims or over-claims casualties which is misleading people into thinking more Ukrainian soldiers have died than actually have. Though there's been a lot of Ukrainian soldiers killed, the number is likely less than half the totals Russia claims.
"Italian journalist in Kramatorsk here. Russia allegedly killed 600 Ukrainian soldiers “in dormitories 28 and 47”. I’m checking the first place, dormitory 28: the missile missed the target, made a big hole in the soft terrain and didn’t touch the buildings around
checking the second place, dormitory 47: the Russian missile missed the target, again. There’s a big hole in front of the building, the place is empty. That’s all from Kramatorsk"
https://twitter.com/DanieleRaineri/status/1612121227971239936
Posted by: MiniMo | Jan 8 2023 21:08 utc | 87
Russian MoD: “As a result of a massive missile attack on these temporary housing areas of the Ukrainian military’s units, more than 600 Ukrainian servicemen were killed"
Italian journalist: "dormitory 28: the missile missed the target, made a big hole in the soft terrain and didn’t touch the buildings around
checking the second place, dormitory 47: the Russian missile missed the target, again. There’s a big hole in front of the building"
The MoD is talking about a massive missile attack, the Italian journalist is talking about two missiles. This does not sound as if they are talkkng about the same place.
Posted by: Passerby | Jan 8 2023 21:18 utc | 88
Ukrainians used the bodies of dead Russians to spell out script in an invitation to a Christmas organ music event.
"They have invitations to a Christmas organ music concert in script from the bodies of Russian soldiers."
https://t.me/voenacher/37297?single
Posted by: MiniMo | Jan 8 2023 21:20 utc | 89
"Russia often claims or over-claims casualties which is misleading people into thinking more Ukrainian soldiers have died than actually have."
Assuming this FUD is true, what does it accomplish for Russia to lie like this? It isn't going to convince the US to back off, and the Russian military still has to destroy those troops. Such a lie does not change facts on the ground, and for the Russians facts on the ground are what is important.
This notion that everything the Russians say is lies is irrational and reflects psychological projection. Not everyone in the world is a pathological liar just because you are.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 8 2023 21:22 utc | 90
"The MoD is talking about a massive missile attack, the Italian journalist is talking about two missiles. This does not sound as if they are talkkng about the same place."
Posted by: Passerby | Jan 8 2023 21:18 utc | 88
Then where is the pictures of the dead soldiers, or any evidence that they died?
Posted by: MiniMo | Jan 8 2023 21:24 utc | 91
Tom Luongo weighs in on Turkye vis a vis NATO....
https://tomluongo.me/2023/01/05/turkiye-erdogan-flips-syria-head/
"The meeting between Russia, Turkiye, and Syria took place between their Defense Ministers where they all described the talks as ‘constructive’ towards solving multiple outstanding issues like refugees and the backing of radicals.
what Putin has done here, with Erdogan’s help, is turn the entire power dynamic of aggression on its head.
With elections on the horizon and Erdogan’s position tenuous for the first time in his political career, moves need to be made now to improve things. Allowing the millions of Syrian refugees the opportunity to go home would be a big win for Erdogan politically.
The Foreign Ministers are now clear to meet. Presumably, after that, Erdogan and Syrian President Bashar al-Assad will meet with the Russians as negotiator to hammer out an official end to Turkiye’s involvement in the Syrian War which began more than a decade ago.
Without Turkiye’s involvement in Syria, the Neocons’ goal of strangling Russia on gas imports to Europe never happens. This was the main impetus behind the Syrian War in the first place. To get him on board, Erdogan had to be bribed with a massive land grab, which he’s tried to accomplish.
But when he didn’t do enough to start a war with Russia in November 2015 after Turkiye supposedly shot down a Russian SU-24, he was rewarded with a coup attempt against him led by the CIA and US military out of the Incerlik airbase, by all accounts.
He was saved, apparently, by an early warning from Putin and ferried out to Iran to issue his counter-attack orders to the Turkish military on the night of the coup attempt.
This was the beginning of the end of Turkiye’s relationship with NATO and the US.
Now, the Russians can allow Syria and Iran to ‘defend themselves’ while keeping his hands mostly clean there.
Now the real ‘bluff calling’ phase of this situation begins.
Now, we’ll see how long “Biden” will keep troops in Syria, stealing oil and enforcing sanctions that Turkiye will make redundant in a few weeks?
Expect regime change operations in Turkiye this fall. Expect stepped-up Israeli aggression against both Syria and Iran until such time as Iran’s IRGC air force is strong enough to defend itself.
The timer is ticking on all of the conflicts in this region: Syria, Iraq, Yemen.
And the key to it all was always getting Erdogan to flip them all on their heads by helping expose the mendacity of this generation of ‘leaders’ in the West."
We live in interesting times.....
INDY
Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Jan 8 2023 21:29 utc | 92
If the story about the “600” by the official Russian MoD is false, their credibility will take a hit.
Doesn't matter much to them what we think of it but it will be interesting to know what Russian domestic media say about this.
Maybe the Russians got played with false intelligence both before and after the strike.
Posted by: alek_a | Jan 8 2023 21:29 utc | 93
Then where is the pictures of the dead soldiers, or any evidence that they died?
Posted by: MiniMo | Jan 8 2023 21:24 utc | 91
Make a note a two weeks from now in your agenda, and forget about the incident. In two weeks, you look back, and it will be pretty obvious who tried to mislead. This how you build confidence.
The same method also works with other news.
Posted by: Passerby | Jan 8 2023 21:33 utc | 94
[email protected] has yet to avenge the death of General Soleimani....at the time of their choice.....according to them.
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jan 8 2023 21:35 utc | 95
" Assuming this FUD is true, what does it accomplish for Russia to lie like this?
Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 8 2023 21:22 utc | 90 "
Same song like any other government. Its meant for internal consumption, aka, the Russian people.
Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | Jan 8 2023 21:39 utc | 96
" [email protected] has yet to avenge the death of General Soleimani....at the time of their choice.....according to them.
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jan 8 2023 21:35 utc | 95 "
Give it time. A decade or so, maybe two...............
Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | Jan 8 2023 21:43 utc | 97
@ MiniMo | Jan 8 2023 21:08 utc | 87
Thank you minimo. You've managed to convince me that the current directed programme narrative is to spuriously cast doubt on any & all reports by MOD, no matter how pathetic, infantile & demonstrably false, so as to undermine the claimed AFU casualties inflicted at Kramatorsk. And since all the known proven Trolls are 'On the Job' singing in one voice in perfect harmony, it must be true, hey ?
Credible corroboration of the claimed photo's legitimacy ? Waitin ?
Your reference is this serial OUN-B Nazi apologist lying Corpse_MSM propagandist POS. Bingo was his Name-O!
Daniele Raineri
@DanieleRaineri
·
Nov 28, 2022
Snigurivka, after eight months of Russian occupation. “A column of Russian armored vehicles entered the town for a cleansing operation like in a movie about the Wehrmacht”. November 2022
@ Dr. George W Oprisko | Jan 8 2023 21:29 utc | 92
Are you perhaps able to translate Minimo linked image @ MiniMo | Jan 8 2023 21:20 utc | 89 please ?
If it's what it seems. :(
Iran has yet to avenge the death of General Soleimani....
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jan 8 2023 21:35 utc | 95
bortaS bIr jablu'DI' reH QaQqu' nay'
-- klingon proverb
Posted by: Vikichka | Jan 8 2023 21:50 utc | 99
@ Vikichka | Jan 8 2023 21:50 utc | 99
Revenge is a dish best served cold.Literal: "When cold revenge is served, the dish is always very good".
The comments to this entry are closed.
RT:
More than 600 Ukrainian troops killed in ‘retaliation operation’ – Moscow
The strike in Kramatorsk was a response to the Ukrainian shelling of Makeyevka on New Year’s night, the Defense Ministry says
Posted by: daniel_s | Jan 8 2023 14:10 utc | 1