Ukraine SitRep - More Missiles, Attack Plans, Artillery Hits Morale
Russia launched dozens of missiles at Ukrainian energy infrastructure on Friday morning, knocking out heating systems in towns and cities across the country as temperatures dropped well below freezing and prompting the national utility to impose sweeping emergency blackouts.Russia had launched 76 missiles at critical infrastructure targets across Ukraine and air defenses managed to shoot down 60 of them, the top commander of Ukraine’s Armed Forces, Gen. Valeriy Zaluzhnyi, said in a statement.
There were 16 missiles which got through to hit their targets. The rest of the report mentioned several of the targeted areas. But those numbers added up to more than 16 missiles:
Ukraine’s energy minister, Herman Galushchenko, said that as many as nine power-generating facilities had been damaged, the Ukrinform news agency reported. He also said that corresponding stations and substations transmitting electricity had suffered damage.
...
In Kharkiv, in northeastern Ukraine, 10 missiles had hit the city, damaging critical infrastructure, local official said.
...
Missiles also damaged infrastructure and hit a residential building in the central city of Kryvyi Rih, Mr. Zelensky’s hometown.
The attack was obviously bigger than Gen. Zaluzhnyi has claimed. Or the shot down count was wrong.
That must also have been obvious to the writers and editors of the quoted piece but is not mentioned in it.
The Russian Defense Ministry reported no precise numbers but claimed that decoys were intentionally part of the strike:
On Friday, 16 December, Ukraine's military command, defence and industrial complex systems and the energy facilities supporting them were hit with a massive strike by long-range, airborne and sea-based precision weapons. The purpose of the strike has been achieved. All the assigned targets have been neutralised. The strike prevented the transfer of foreign-made weapons and ammunition, blocked the movement of reserves to combat areas, and halted Ukraine's defence enterprises producing and repairing weapons, military equipment and ammunition. In the course of repelling the strike by Ukrainian and Western air defence systems, a significant resource was expended on deliberately launched decoys.At the same time, four radar stations of Ukrainian S-300 air defence systems in the settlements of Andrusovka and Pridneprovskoye (Dnepropetrovsk region), as well as Novotavricheskaya and Nikolay-Pole (Zaporozhye region), have been revealed and destroyed. As a result of the unprofessional actions of Ukrainian air defence units, civilian infrastructure on the ground has been damaged.
The Russian forces first send cheap Iran-designed drones as decoys and then follow up with real cruise missiles. If the first round induced the air defenses to lighten up their radar a second round will follow to destroy these.
As the published accounts of total impacts did not add up with the totals claimed by the Ukrainian military it now has changed the numbers:
Ukraine’s general staff said on Saturday that the Russians had launched 98 missiles and 65 rockets fired from multiple-rocket systems aimed at civilian and energy infrastructure targets in that barrage. The military previously had put the figure at 76 missiles, and although it was not immediately clear why the count changed, information in the initial hours after an attack is frequently incomplete.
Today more strikes were coming:
With Ukrainians already on edge about further strikes, new explosions rang out over the port city of Odesa early Saturday, and air-raid alerts sounded across the country a few hours later. Midmorning, the Ukrainian general command warned that military jets were taking off from neighboring Belarus and that the whole of Ukraine was a potential target.Early reports from Ukrainian officials on Saturday were of incoming missiles being intercepted. The country’s southern military command said that two incoming Russian missiles had been intercepted by its air defense in Odesa and caused no casualties.
Yesterday the Russian president Vladimir Putin was briefed a whole day on future plans of the 'special military operation':
The President spent all day on Friday working at the joint staff of military branches involved in the special military operation.The head of state was briefed about the work of the joint staff and on the progress made in the special military operation, held a general meeting and separate meetings with commanders.
On Monday Putin will meet with the Belorussian president Aleksandr Lukashenko:
The heads of state are set to discuss in detail the implementation of the previously adopted Union State programs. This pertains, first of all, to trade and economic cooperation, joint import substitution projects. Cooperation in the energy sector will be an important point of the agenda. The presidents will also pay much attention to security issues, exchange views on the situation in the region and the world, and discuss joint measures to respond to emerging challenges.
Lukashenko wants cheaper Russian gas for Belarus while Putin wants Belarus to do as Russia says. Some compromise will be found in the middle on both issues.
The meeting is of interest as some of the options for a larger Russian operation in the war involve attacks from Belarus into Ukraine.
bigger
This could be a move north to south in west Ukraine on a line that is some 60 kilometers from the Polish border. The purpose would be to cut off the 'western' weapon supplies that are still constantly coming in. Colonel Doug Macgregor favors that move. Another move could again go towards Kiev as the Ukrainian chief-of-staff Zaluzhnyi expects.
I have my doubts about both operations. If the electricity network is down as it is soon likely to be the transport of weapons from the west will be sufficiently interrupted as the trains will mostly come to a halt. Kiev is not yet of importance. Another move towards it may only come at the very end of the war. The primary task of the whole operation is to to demilitarize Ukraine and to completely liberate the Donbas region. That is still a big task and should be the major focus of the next operations.
A move from the southern Mariupol region that Russian forces currently hold up northwards into the back of the Ukrainian forces which currently fight at the eastern Donetsk frontline would be a sensible. Those Ukrainian forces would then have to either retreat or get trapped. This move would help to avoid the casualties that come with breaking through the heavily fortified lines in the east that were build over the last seven years.
But even if such a move does not happen yet the demilitarization of Ukraine is still happening. The unabated destruction of the Ukrainian forces on the frontline continues day by day. The artillery advantage the Russian forces have has only increased over time.
Ukrainian news from the frontline is grim:
For those defending Bakhmut, Russia’s more cautious tactics bring little relief, as the daily bombardment of Ukrainian positions continues uninterrupted.Outside the city, the close proximity of Russian and Ukrainian lines, often less than a kilometer apart, means that Russia doesn’t even need to use its heavy artillery as much, instead relying on an endless stream of mortar, grenade and rocket launcher fire to pound Ukrainian positions.
For the Ukrainian soldiers tasked with holding the first line, there is little to do but hope that one’s trench or dugout doesn’t take a direct hit.
“Our first and second lines of defense are relatively stable, but it comes at a great cost,” said Ivan, whose unit and exact posting have been kept undisclosed for security reasons.
“Some units are simply running out of people. From what I saw, in only one fight, we had around 10 of our guys killed, never mind the number of wounded. Not everyone could be extracted from the battlefield, some just bled out where they lay.”
In these conditions, the common belief about Russia’s poor effectiveness as a fighting force can quickly melt away.
“They (Ukrainian military leadership) tell everyone about the huge casualties suffered on the Russian side, but from what I could see around Bakhmut, things are more or less OK for them,” said Ivan.
“In terms of the coordination between their brigades and artillery, and their overall unit cohesion, you can tell they are doing very well in this sector because of how difficult it is to fight against them.”
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While it might not be making large advances, Russia’s attritional assault is proving effective in other ways, according to Ivan.“Morale is beginning to suffer because of the lack of personnel,” he said. “It's hard to speak of good morale when it's eight below freezing, you are sitting in a trench under fire all day and there is simply nobody to replace you for days on end.”
Still, there is no talk among the troops of retreating from Bakhmut and its outskirts.
“In that respect our resolve is strong,” said Ivan, “despite – definitely not thanks to – what is going on on the battlefield.”
Those who still reject holding peace talks are responsible for this situation and for the massive amount of casualties the Ukrainian army has each and every day.
Posted by b on December 17, 2022 at 17:52 UTC | Permalink
next page »Completely normal that Ukraine provide ridiculously unlikely statistics for missiles fired and missiles intercepted.The continuing attritional battles,especially in the Donbas,should be cause for shame and censure in NATO,instead they continue pumping in weapons and training rifle companies to fight an artillery war.
Posted by: Antipropo | Dec 17 2022 18:11 utc | 2
@ b who wrote
"
Those who still reject holding peace talks are responsible for this situation and for the massive amount of casualties the Ukrainian army has each and every day.
"
Are those folks rejecting peace talks about Ukraine the same folks in Syria, etc. projecting ongoing empire? The decision needing to be made by "those folks" is agreeing to a multipolar world and since "those folks" are not being threatened directly, they are not likely to give in easily, if ever.
We don't even know who "these folks" are, do we? I conjecture here that Pope Frank and King Chuck are members of "those folks" but we are kept in the dark and fed BS like mushrooms.
/endrant
Thanks for the posting b
Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 17 2022 18:15 utc | 3
Clearly all of the "missile strikes" on random apartment buildings were wayward antiaircraft missiles. Why would the Russians waste what surely by now must be their last missiles on park benches and parked cars? Furthermore, it seems likely that facilities that were put out of commission were hit by more than one missile. After all, have the Ukes not been trying to "harden" vulnerable grid nodes lately? Either their efforts are wasted or the Russians are hitting their targets with more than just a single geran-2 drone.
The Ukraine is punch-drunk. The Russians knock them down and NATO picks them back up off the mat, waves some "smelling salts" under their nose, and pushes them back into the fight while the ref counts "... eight... nine... nine and a half... nine and three quarters... nine and seven eighths..." and the announcer shouts "What a fight, folks! Those Russians sure are taking a beating!". Stumbling cross-eyed back for more punishment the Ukraine slurs "That didn't hurt! You totally missed me!" and promptly "intercepts" another triple combo with his face.
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 17 2022 18:20 utc | 4
On a lighter note, I read on ZH that president of US backed former state of Ukraine sought the podium for this big soccer match and was rejected. I'm not a soccer fan but I understand it's very popular around the world.
I'm guessing the global chorus of boos for Zelensky and his beady eyed benefactors would be fantastic. I hope the backlash is devastating and permanent for the World Police and their terror adventures.
Posted by: chunga | Dec 17 2022 18:22 utc | 5
@b. Your observation that the "soft underbelly" as one might call it, the Zaparozhe region would be the most logical focus for a major Russian offensive. The Bakhmut/Artyemovsk "kesselschlacht" has been drawing more and more Ukie troops from other fronts, several of them from the Zap region. To me as well, that direction would be the obvious choice at this time.
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 17 2022 18:35 utc | 6
@1 wagelaborer;
Yes. People here love to ridicule Obamas dismissal of Russia as "a gas station with nukes" and "merely a regional power"
But in fact Obama was able to sense weakness and demean his opponent in a most cutting way due to his high level of narcissism, which grants him "superpowers" in this respect.
Well, now it appears that Russia is barely able to project power to a portion of a neighbouring state that was formerly part of the Russian Empire for centuries.
So Obama was right.
And now, after seeing the disastrous lack of high tech RF army capabilities (drones, satellite surveillance, encrypted communications, c&c, precision munitions, - even medical kits and uniforms) - we can conclude that Putin was happy to sell off and scrap what remained of Soviet industry in favour of distributing historically high oil profits to his cronies. Weapons factories become shopping malls for liberal consumers. The "Czech Dream"...
So, Obama was right, again.
Useless grifters selling infotainment - absurd characters like "Saker" or "Marty", nerds on Twitter; turn out to be selling false hope.
Even b is starting to realise this, with a more sober assessment, preparing the Western Putin cultists for the bad news - no "Winter Offensive".
The "anti imperialist" faction on the Western internet has turned itself into a laughing stock, boosting the credibility of reactionaries, fascists, and imperialists by an order of magnitude.
Can't wait for another 1000 word essay from some bloviator about the brave new multipolar world just around the corner.. just check out his social media page for more amazing revelations...
"Anti-imperialism" is a poor substitute for historical materialism, critique of political economy, and a clear eyed view of reality. An essentially negative viewpoint, concerned only for overthrowing the Empire, little thought to what comes afterwards... suitable for children raised on "Star Wars".
Just as it was months ago, the key to changing this dynamic lies with Chairman Xi.
Posted by: moaobserver | Dec 17 2022 18:38 utc | 7
⚡️🇷🇺🇺🇦⚔️ A Must Read - Evaluation of the Nebulator⚡️🎖 Ukraine's top general Zaluzhny told the Economist: "I need 300 main battle tanks, 600-700 armored personnel carriers, 500 artillery pieces."
♦️Translation: "I need an army, mine is gone!"
And this is after NATO scraped up every single Soviet-design tank it had and sent it over, to replace Ukraine's entire initial arsenal.
💬 This quote from Zaluzhny reminded me that Ukraine isn't just a clash of civilizations, cultures, worldviews and even religions — but a direct conflict of two opposing schools of military thought.
▪️ You may have heard the saying, "amateurs talk strategy; professionals talk logistics." This is why arrows-on-a-map approach to understanding this conflict isn't giving you the full picture. Zaluzhny's "ask" suggests that Ukraine basically doesn't have a mechanized army with offensive capabilities anymore. It had one at the beginning of the year, but it was destroyed. Then it got replacements, in the form of Soviet tanks and AFVs scrounged from all over Europe and the rest of the GAE-controlled world. Those appear to have been reduced to scrap, too — as well as much of the NATO-caliber artillery.
▪️ By now, Ukraine's power grid seems to have been wrecked to such an extent that large-scale production of weapons and ammunition is impractical. The EU is facing self-inflicted energy problems, so it can't really step up either. Ironically, the US military-industrial complex, which once famously out-produced Nazi Germany, is now stuck in the same paradigm as Hitler: relying on expensive, clunky, high-tech, whiz-bang Wunderwaffe that don't work as advertised most of the time, and when they do they simply get swamped by mass quantities of "good enough" hardware (like the T-34 vs the Tiger). Which Russia, by the way, is producing at an accelerated pace, and at a fraction of the money the US spends.
🩸In effect, the proxy war Washington intended as a way to "bleed" Russia of lives, weapons and money is bleeding the West dry instead.
📜 To truly understand what this means, take a look at this write-up of Napoleon's tactical genius. The man was a legend because he had a "feel" for battle like none other, but even he was eventually undone by logistics. At Leipzig and Waterloo, he simply didn't have the cavalry and artillery his entire method of maneuver warfare relied on — because they perished in the disastrous expedition against Russia...
https://t.me/sitreports/2226
Posted by: Down South | Dec 17 2022 18:40 utc | 8
Weaknesses of the Russian War Machine and Solutions Implemented
General Weaknesses:
It needs to be remembered that the Russian military spending is a small percentage of US military spending even after adjusting for cost differences. It’s an even smaller percentage of NATO military spending as well. The Russian military suffers also suffers from more than a fair amount of corruption, just as other militaries do, however the relative poverty of Russia exacerbates this problem within the context of Russian society. To be frank, Russia is a poor nation relative to the Western powers.
Solutions: While Russia can’t increase it’s per capita GDP overnight, the strength of the Russian economy and the reliance of the West on Russian hydrocarbons has been demonstrated during the SMO. Therefore, the Russian economy has both strengths and weaknesses. Even before the SMO, Russia took great strides to limit its dependence on oil revenues and strengthen the resilience of the War Chest. This foresight has paid dividends.
As far as corruption is concerned, the SMO has had cleansing effect, within the realm of the possible, as corruption will most likely never be irradicated. As we’ve witnessed the neoliberal rats as well as some of the most egregious oligarchs being running from what they perceived to be a sinking ship (as they cared not for Russia or her overall well being, but only for their own personal wealth and comfort), much of the toxic elements of Russian society are being cleansed from her bloodstream. Over the near and long term, this will make the War Machine stronger and more resilient in the face of adversity.
Drones and Drone Countermeasures
Quickly after the SMO began, it was apparent that Russia had underinvested in autonomous drone technology. In the modern battlefield where Air Supremacy can’t be or hasn’t been achieved, combat resembling that of WW1 becomes the norm. In this event, expensive fighter jets and bombers are incredibly vulnerable, and each loss is costly, especially for a nation that doesn’t have an endless amount of money for such luxuries. One can’t help but notice that drones are being used much of the same way that biplanes of early military aviation functioned, in the realms of reconnaissance as well as targeted bombing of enemy infantry in trenches and bunkers. The loss of a drone pales in comparison materially relative to the loss of a fighter jet that costs orders of magnitude more in terms of resources both financial and material.
Solutions: As we’ve seen, Russia has plugged much of this gap with assistance from Iran as well as by spinning up its own drone production. Russia is not beginning to focus on an array of autonomous vehicles that will be the future of military operations. I believe that Russia has turned this weakness into a strength since the beginning of the SMO.
The Battalion Tactical Group
As many have commented, the Battalion Tactical Group has, in recent decades, become the main arrangement of Russian tactical groupings in recent decades. This grouping has certain advantages when facing poorly equipped opponents with poor training, primarily irregular infantry with weak defenses. Basically, the BTG consists of lots of heavy machinery but also reduced infantry to defend the flanks. The purpose is to multiply the effect of artillery at the cost of being more vulnerable to shock attacks on their flanks. Defense of the BTG flanks was mostly left to the militia groups of the DPR/LPR. This strategy has proven inadequate in the face of a well trained and well supplied Ukrainian defense.Solutions: It is now being announced by the Western military analysts that Russia is beginning to abandon the BTG system in favor of more infantry to better protect against counterattacks. In fact, many of the recently mobilized have been sent into the SMO precisely to expedite this change. I’ll be discussing the mobilization more in the next section, but this was a very necessary change in tactics that will better prevent the loss of equipment in the RF.
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/25318
Posted by: Down South | Dec 17 2022 18:43 utc | 9
To further develop the thesis, playing armchair general if I may; a striking force of two tank brigades, along with five mechanized ones, would likely suffice to overcome localized Ukrainian units in order to make a broad-arrow sweep up to the city of Zaporozhe and thenceforth up the Dnieper valley northwestwards. Motorized infantry, some of them yet to have been "blooded" would take on the role of holding the liberated territory, preventing counter-thrusts on the part of bypassed Ukrainian units. A special motorized detachment would feature trucks to haul surrendered Ukie troops to the rear. That convoy would be accompanied by ambulances and a few self-protection vehicles.
Followthrough artillery brigades, perhaps a pair of them, could along with helicopter gunships with a mass of drones preceding them, should suffice to smother "schwerpuncts".
Under some such scenario as this we may be looking at the full unfolding of Drone War I.
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 17 2022 18:44 utc | 10
@3
Perhaps you are forgetting who installed that coup government? The US cabal hand-picked that group in 2014 and they have decades of experience working with nazis, zionazis, racists and anti-Russian psychopaths. From Operation Paperclip to Netanyahoo, as long as the money keeps flowing into their pockets, they have no ideological bent or care one micron for proles anywhere on the planet.
Zelensky was elected by a landslide on the promise of bringing peace but the real neo-nazis stopped him bought and paid for by the CIA/banksters.
Posted by: hedlykarok | Dec 17 2022 18:51 utc | 11
@ Down South: Long overdue, is my thanks to you to keep MoA readers constantly updated on Slavyangrad's offerings as your primary source. The information you provide is the most direct and to the point material condensed into readily digested postings currently available over the internet. Again, thank you for your service. Quite confident that it is a go-to for virtually each and every poster on this site.
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 17 2022 18:56 utc | 12
US complicit in Ukrainian attacks on Russian airfields – DPR head
Russia is still complaining.
Unfortunately Russia cannot hurt USA.
But Russia could arm Iran. That would be a good move.
Posted by: kerensky | Dec 17 2022 18:58 utc | 13
I see China as the US in the late 19th century, using cheap labor and resources to industrialize and build up a modern society. But any country with billionaires and exploited labor isn't socialist in my book. Xi isn't going to save anyone.
I see Russia (especially in the 90s) as the US in the 80s, taking an industrialized country with a comfortable working class and stripping it of assets while stomping out working class perks.
It seems that Russians are getting tired of this, especially as the hyenas and jackals of the west circle around, eyeing their resources and ready to kill.
Posted by: wagelaborer | Dec 17 2022 18:59 utc | 14
Were there moments in history when fronts suddenly collapsed and the armies losing the war, suddenly refused to fight?
Posted by: Kerensky | Dec 17 2022 19:12 utc | 15
thanks b... great overview and i especially agree with your last line....
i share your perspective on being doubtful of the first couple of plans suggested.. your idea of coming from mariupol in and back of the line is interesting.. i kind of doubt that too, but we'll see...
Posted by: james | Dec 17 2022 19:13 utc | 16
I happened to open AliExpress. On the front page, among the hottest selling items I find these.
USB Heated Shoe Insoles Electric Foot Warming Pad
The €3,38 price includes a 1.5 meter cable, but no battery pack or charger. Other stores sell the same item, but this seller has received 2665 likes and 132 reviews for 3177 orders. About a third of the reviews are from Russia. A few are from Ukraine. All seem to be positive.
Must be cold in the trenches. I wonder, how long the Ukrainian battery packs will last without electricity or chargers?
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Dec 17 2022 19:13 utc | 17
@ Kerensky | Dec 17 2022 19:12 utc | 15
its possible but according to reports all those who stop fighting are murdered by the azoz types..
Posted by: james | Dec 17 2022 19:13 utc | 18
As usual, none if us can really know what's going on in Ukraine. But in my humble opinion, Putin would be nuts to launch a major ground offensive. I mean, suppose that this time the Russians really do manage to drive deep into Ukraine. Then what? Ukraine will keep fighting because it has been ordered to by the Western elites. And Russia will have occupied and be responsible for a devastated country filled with people who by now totally hate the Russians and will sabotage them at every turn. And Russian forces and logistics will continue to be hammered by missiles targeted by the almost supernaturally good western surveillance systems.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" - or at least, when faced with the monstrous anti-worker anti-nation western elites, one might take pleasure when these elites are defeated, even if we personally don't benefit. But we should be wary of hoping that Russia is stronger than it really is. Maybe Putin will pull out a victory, but Russia has serious weaknesses and the western empire has many strengths.
To this non-professional, it seems as if the real key is going to be whose industrial base can last longer. If Russia can start cranking out cheap drones by the tens of thousands, they can exhaust not just Ukraine's stocks of anti-aircraft missiles, but the west's as well. In that case, Russia could start using its Air Force in medium level runs and really interdict the western supply lines, targeting moving trains and truck convoys etc. But if Russia keeps nibbling on the edges of Ukraines electric networks without creating a total collapse, and Ukraine maintains the ability to deny airspace to Russian bombers, that would m]be a major failure for Russia and maybe the end of the game. We shall see.
Russia makes most of its money selling cheap gas: what a waste. When the United States was in the ascendency, it kept its resources for itself and used that boost its own industries. Russia might not have the social or political circumstances for that to happen, but all those resources they are exporting are a lost opportunity.
Posted by: TG | Dec 17 2022 19:17 utc | 19
Posted by: aristodemos | Dec 17 2022 18:56 utc | 12
No problem!
Posted by: Down South | Dec 17 2022 19:17 utc | 20
"Those who still reject holding peace talks are responsible for this situation and for the massive amount of casualties the Ukrainian army has each and every day"
To be clear that is Boris Johnson, Rishi Sunack, Joe Biden, Anthony Blinken, Jake Sulivan, Victoria Nuland, Loyd Austin, and Vlodomir Zelenski.
War criminals the lot of them.
Posted by: Ike | Dec 17 2022 19:19 utc | 21
There is currently a massive information operation going on... supportive of a narrative being pushed through every possible information stream. Corruption? You don't think billions of kickbacks and lobbyists in Washington is not the the absolute worst type of corruption in scale and consequences possible. BTGs ineffective even though our Combat Teams are pretty much the same concept sans the artillery ratios. No.... amateurs speak of tactics and the professional speak of logistics. The Russians are methodically pulverizing the Ukrainian formations to dust. The sheer volume of logistics to fire 50,000 shells a day is the true measure of this operation. The logistics of the naval and air launched precision munitions is another yardstick. Ukraine is done for....the Western economies are by design done for as well.
Posted by: Joe | Dec 17 2022 19:20 utc | 22
I forgot Macron, Scholtz and friends and the Polish bigot masquerading as president
Posted by: Ike | Dec 17 2022 19:21 utc | 23
Hi, i am an avid follower of this blog for all updates pertaining the Ukraine War. From here in Kenya, i just thought it in order to let the author know that his/her objective daily updates are followed and appreciated far and wide from all the four corners of the globe. Keep it up!
Posted by: Daniel Gathua | Dec 17 2022 19:26 utc | 24
I believe that the best strategy for Russia is to degrade Ukraine's strategic mobility by destroying substations and bridges, then exploit the lack of strategic mobility by attacking Ukraine where Ukraine is weak. This will compel Ukraine to transport forces hundreds of kilometers to meet the attack which will render those forces extremely vulnerable to attack from aircraft and missiles. The Russian forces in the East will then be able to roll over whatever Ukrainian forces remain in place. Then Russia can cut a deal with Poland and Romania to allow them to reclaim Ukrainian territory in return for their withdrawal from NATO.
Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Dec 17 2022 19:27 utc | 25
There is one thing about this war between Ukraine and Russia that continues to puzzle me. This has to do with Transdnistria. This is that narrow piece of land between Moldova and Ukraine along the dneister river. All of those maps that display Russian control shows that narrow band as Russian controlled territory.
It seems to me that Russia is in no military position to defend that narrow strip of land.
What is stopping Ukraine from simply moving in and seizing it? It seems pretty clear given the current confrontational lines between Ukraine and Russian forces Russia is in no position oppose such a move.
Posted by: Toivos | Dec 17 2022 19:35 utc | 26
@ike
Didn't you read the article?
Quote:
"Still, there is no talk among the troops of retreating from Bakhmut and its outskirts.
“In that respect our resolve is strong,” said Ivan"
Zelensky said "no one will forgive it" if they make peace and give up territory.
Is it wrong to think that Ukrainians want it this way? Nationalism does crazy things to people's minds.
Posted by: Vikichka | Dec 17 2022 19:37 utc | 27
Wagelaborer
Most westerners are incapable of understanding China on any level.
They have grown up with Asians being servants, store owners, indentured servant. political and social jokes
They have never set foot in Asia much less China.
They have no understanding of the political systems of the past much less the current structures.
They have no understanding of their society, work structures, housing or healthcare.
what they are told about China and Russia is a constant lie
Workers in factories in China are provided housing and food.
Xi has removed millions into better housing. Education free ,healthcare all but free. Highspeed high Quality transportation that is affordable is now the norm.
No country of any size is with out the corrupt oligarchs but both Russia and China have taken control of them unlike any of the western WEF countries.
Posted by: Susan | Dec 17 2022 19:39 utc | 28
@25 Tovios;
Civil war in Moldova and the biggest ammo dump in Europe going boom.
The new narrative forming is that Russia will invade from Belarus in February.
I doubt that they will siege Kiev, the troops in Belarus are there to train. Because of the lack of such facilities in Russia proper; they were all dismantled and sold off for shopping malls etc.
A force taking the entire left (eastern) bank of the Dneipr would be logical and the river would represent a formidable natural barrier.
But then invading the largest country in Europe with a 150k force wasn't logical, so...
Meanwhile here is a link to YT of the 1978 Burt Lancaster narrated documentary "The Unknown War" - Ep 13 - Liberation of the Ukraine. (H/T some poster on NC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd6ngRVovaI
For enjoyers of "European values".
Gorbachev will go down as the most foolish leader in history who has led the whole of humanity to the edge of the abyss...
Posted by: moaobserver | Dec 17 2022 19:44 utc | 29
In order to understand Zaluzhny and his press statement one has to refer to hus recent interview with the Economist. I know this is mostly for Western PR, but its quite revealing. He was asked about Air Defence and his answer was almost like out of a NATO presentation. "We now have a 0.76 ratio. Russians are using this 0.76 coefficient of efficacy yo plan their attacks. This means instead of 76 missiles, they launch 100, and 24 get through". Further on he suggests " NATO specialists know everything, down to the last detail". But the tell tale sign that this glorious warrior of UPA is not all that he is cracked up to be is in the beginning of the interview when he candidly admits, "For us, for the military the war began in 2014. For me personally July 2014. I had no idea what war really was in 2014. I had read a lot of books, graduated from academies with a gold medal. I understood everything theoretically, but did not understand what war really meant". That is from the 'Chief of Staff of the military if Ukraine. I think in all honesty, he most likely is good learner, good student. He grasps things quite well. Hence his statement of 76 missiles but air defenses shot down 60 due to the coefficient of efficacy. I mean do generals talk like that. If this guy is what the people of Ukraine are hanging all their hopes on, this brilliant NATO student/strategist. Kinda like how Yats was a NATO pseudo politician/fixer then they are fvcked!
Posted by: Gankanas | Dec 17 2022 19:50 utc | 30
Posted by: wagelaborer | Dec 17 2022 18:11 utc | 1
I am pretty sure that the de-industrialisation of Russia is a bit of a myth. Of course likening the 1990s to the USA is way off beam, in that the 1990s was for Russia more like the colonial invasion of the USA or South America. The place was exploited and almost destroyed. People left in droves and there was the humiliating reality of Russian brides, a sign of virtual total collapse of society. It was almost a complete US victory and destruction of the USSR and Russia. The various republics were in revolution eg Chechnya.
Then something shifted. I am not sure what, but somehow they got it together. Obviously Putin had something to do with it but it must have required much, much more and many other people to make it happen. it was at that point that the de- idustrialisation stopped and started to turn around. It had a long way to go.
Oddly enough the sanctions placed on Russia starting in 2008, actually helped, and Russia was able to turn its economy round. First was food. I recall being quite stunned to realise that Russia has become a major exporter of wheat, more than Australia who had always prided itself on wheat and wool production. Also perhaps because they had nowhere to go, or still had Russian pride, the rocket scientists got back to work, allowing a military rebuild. i do not follow it closely but i noticed recently that the Russians will be replacing Boeing aeroplanes with their own. Clearly manufacturing is on the rise.
Posted by: moaobserver | Dec 17 2022 18:38 utc | 7
I often wonder if you are a troll or simply a blinkered yank with limited world view. Sure the Saker and Martenov were full of hubris, but hey if you interviewed two old US military analysts you would find lots of hubris too. The key is to sort out the truth from the exaggeration.
If GWB in 2000 had made the Obama statement, he may have been right, but the USA spent the next 8 years chasing goat herders and believing their own hubris, and were not watching while Russia pulled itself out or the muck. Obama may even have bee right, but was not aware that the gas station workers had been redirected to national rebuild and the nuke scientists could redirect themselves to other technologies, and that a new russia was about to emerge.
Posted by: watcher | Dec 17 2022 19:59 utc | 31
Putin's visit to the SMO headquarters indicates a change, a finalization of plans. I had put in a comment on the Ukraine open thread about when b posted this article or just after, and my thoughts are pretty much the same as what b has written here.
The SMO has remained the same since Azovstal when Putin made a speech and ordered the military to lock it up and wait them out. The frontlines that had been set at that point were quiet for a few weeks then the WWI attrition type warfare developed with some ground being taken in the north.
This meeting was about new plans new strategy. The weapons flow into Ukraine has slowed to a trickle. Coke head refuses any negotiations and the ordinary Ukrainians have not impaled him on a pitchfork. The energy grid has nearly ceased to exist and several more strikes will finish it completely. Diesel generates required for military hospitals and repairing heavy equipment. Diesel on top of that required to operate any heavy equipment the Ukraine military still possesses. Logistics...
That meeting seemed like a finalization of plans. A check that everything was ready and coordinated. The last of the mobilized will be very close to finishing retraining if not finished now. The fire power Russia has assembled seems sufficient to provide overwhelming fire power on a small front such as Donetsk region whichever way Russia chooses to go at it.
Destruction of the weakened Ukraine forces in Donbas with very low losses on Russian side.
Combine Russian Belorussian forces a deterrence against Nato plus fixes some Ukraine forces at the Belarus border?
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 17 2022 20:02 utc | 32
“Those who still reject holding peace talks are responsible for this situation and for the massive amount of casualties the Ukrainian army has each and every day.”
If I were in such a position, I would reject holding peace talks until Ukraine surrenders unconditionally. There’s a time for war, and a time for peace. Peace pursued at the wrong time is betrayal. But, yeah, the policy of the west sucks for Ukraine. And that’s on the USA.
Posted by: Zed | Dec 17 2022 20:02 utc | 33
Were there moments in history when fronts suddenly collapsed and the armies losing the war, suddenly refused to fight?
Posted by: Kerensky | Dec 17 2022 19:12 utc | 15
In one of the older treads here I read of a widespread serious mutiny among French troops in WWI. IIRC it was said that German intelligence failed to pick up on just how big a mutiny it was, and if they'd acted with even just what was on hand, they could have made some breakthroughs and possibly won the war right there and then.
I also remember a massive mutiny among the British Navy during its endless war against the French. An amazing story how it was organized and carried out, but IIRC the mutinous sailors were very concerned, overall, about not giving an opening to the French fleet. Had they been only out for themself, they could have cut a deal that would have left them wealthy, and the French with a victory that could have had Great Britain at its feet.
Posted by: Babel-17 | Dec 17 2022 20:13 utc | 34
Posted by: Susan | Dec 17 2022 19:39 utc | 27
Great comment, thank you.
Posted by: anon2020 | Dec 17 2022 20:14 utc | 35
Were there moments in history when fronts suddenly collapsed and the armies losing the war, suddenly refused to fight?
Posted by: Kerensky | Dec 17 2022 19:12 utc | 15
Virtually all of Europe WWII.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 17 2022 20:18 utc | 36
Russian MoD reported that they had set up a number of decoy projectiles which successfully mislead Ukrainian AA and allowed identification and elimination of some AA batteries. So the 60 targets hit need not be wrong, only that those were not the attacking missiles.
Posted by: aquadraht | Dec 17 2022 20:20 utc | 37
TG | Dec 17 2022 19:17 utc | 19
Your plan with drones involves something they will not have for a very long time: many drones.
There is no need for an invasion the way you describe. All they have to do is put enough soldiers to prevent the costly retreats and then continue until the new regions, that are in Russia now, are no longer hit daily. hold positions inside, destroy outside. No other region will vote to join Russia, even if they want to, because no one protects them.
If that edge of strikes happens to pass thru kiev, because nato gives them long range missiles, then kiev has to be threatened only once then destroyed to achieve that distance. And clearly the operation has to go anti-terrorist to enable the legal framework for destruction of any targets inside and outside Ukr. But no, the great generals still run in circles with 5 soldiers, only responding to attacks and waiting for Zely and his gang, nato's zombie retarded puppets, to surrender. Good luck with that.
Posted by: rk | Dec 17 2022 20:34 utc | 38
Posted by: Joe | Dec 17 2022 19:20 utc | 22
You seem to be the only one in the thread so far who has a clue.
b:
I have my doubts about both operations. If the electricity network is down as it is soon likely to be the transport of weapons from the west will be sufficiently interrupted as the trains will mostly come to a halt. Kiev is not yet of importance. Another move towards it may only come at the very end of the war. The primary task of the whole operation is to to demilitarize Ukraine and to completely liberate the Donbas region. That is still a big task and should be the major focus of the next operations.
I don't see cutting the flow of weapons to be a major concern, either. Russia hasn't bothered to do more in that area in ten months, why start now? It might be advisable, but clearly Russia has other priorities for its missiles. If a move is made from Belarus, it will be to surround Kiev.
As for the importance of Kiev, clearly surrounding it and taking out the government is of importance. It would have a massive morale blow to the remaining Ukrainian military, assuming it wasn't already destroyed. Zaluzhnyi would likely take power and negotiate a surrender thus making destroying the remaining Ukrainian troops unnecessary - they would be disarmed and sent home - clearly a better outcome than having to destroy the rest of the Ukrainian military all over the country.
Unfortunately there is still no evidence that Russia has the number of troops in Belarus needed to do this. Therefore it is more likely that the Russian offensive will be elsewhere - initially. But Kiev will be taken eventually, and preferably as soon as possible.
I do agree that finishing the Donbass operation is a priority but Russia can do that with the forces it already had in the field. It will just be a bit quicker with additional forces. The remaining forces can be used for another major operation.
After Donbass is cleared - possibly with the pincer movement you suggest - then a drive to Kiev - or to Odessa or to Kharkiv - can be done. As I have suggested before, if Russia consolidates its forces after Donbass, it can maneuver in any direction and destroy any remaining concentration of Ukrainian forces, without having to worry about a ridiculously long front.
As for the primary task of the war, restoring Donbass is a minor issue. One could go so far as to say it's the excuse. The real primary task is to eliminate Ukraine as a threat and a proxy for NATO, as well as to counter NATO directly by putting strategic weapons in western Ukraine, just as Russia is doing in Belarus, to counter the Aegis Ashore installations.
This requires the complete elimination of the Ukraine military and the Ukraine government, and the replacement of same by other mechanisms. Just because Putin or Lavrov hasn't said this directly means nothing. Why should they? Why hand the West their intentions in a basket with a bow? Russia is being careful not to reveal its intentions because they don't want to scare the West into doing something stupid which could get out of control and end up in WWIII.
This is called "escalation management" which is a corollary to "escalation dominance." But that doesn't mean Russia wants to drag the war out for another year, which is pointless and might only encourage the West to do something stupid. There needs to be a balance between finishing Ukraine off in a month and taking a year to do it.
This is why I'm convinced everything that has happened so far is part of the Russian plan. The slowness of the SMO so far is a feature, not a bug. The upcoming offensive(s) may be "big arrow" or "grinding", or both at different times and places. The end result remains a guaranteed Russian victory, short of NATO deploying nukes.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Dec 17 2022 20:38 utc | 39
Moral in the trenches is unimportant. They are already dead in the generals books.
They were fed on lies. Fight for a lie and believe any lie about enemies losses and their side’s success.
The complete censorship of ‘enemy’ media in Ukraine helps.
The same in Europe and US, 5 eyes is what gives the game away about our long term plans.
It is and has always been about alienating us from them.
The Ukrops are just the sacrifices to feed that story depopulated from their lands.
I used to think the Soviets really wanted to take over Europe and was ready to join up and make a career deterring them.
Thank fuck I found out soon enough to waste my twenties doing what many of my friends ended up doing. They haven’t had happy lives and civvy world was a bit of a challenge when they came back. The teenage certitudes had vanished.
Then I learnt the real history not the comic book and Hollywood racist one.
Thank goodness I have met Russians on my travels and Chinese too, yup they were ‘uncouth’ in my eyes in the early days. When they finally had enough disposable income to travel. But they too have settled into middle class family travellers and these who still get drunk and fall asleep in the burning sun on their first day - turning a crispy rare meat colour..
But then again WE have always been uncouth wherever we’ve gone. Yobs, Pubs, meat and two veg, speaking LOUD in English because we couldn’t be bothered to learn the language.
The Costa’s of Spain are still ruined.
Jeez, come friendly missiles, right to our weapons factories and executives palaces. Please rid us of the murdering thieving scum that have always ruined our lives.
Posted by: DunGroanin | Dec 17 2022 20:38 utc | 40
@3 Petro
What is a Nazi? Is that someone who hates Jews, uses symbols like swastikas and Hitler salutes, reads "Mein Kampf" and celebrates Hitler's birthday?
To me, a Nazi is someone who denies basic human rights to a group of people, classifying them as subhuman ("cockroaches") and using that perception as an excuse for committing atrocities and ethnic cleansing, depopulating and occupying territories. Don't expect fascism to stage a revival with the very same set of symbols. This time, we've got Nazis allright, but the target group has changed, Russians instead of Jews. Anything else may change as well. To me, cancel culture is another form of fascism, albeit at an early stage.
Posted by: grunzt | Dec 17 2022 20:41 utc | 41
@petro wrote:
It is notable that the 2014 coup government found positions for the Jew Arseniy Yatsenyuk (Prime Minister of Ukraine, 27 February 2014), the Jew Petro Poroshenko (President of Ukraine, 7 June 2014) and the Jew Vitali Klitschko (Mayor of Kiev, 25 May 2014) but no position was found for the (supposed) neo-Nazi Oleh Tyahnybok (Svoboda Party leader) when he lost his position in the parliament some months later (October 2014). Subsequently, the Jew Volodymyr Groysman (14 April 2016) became Prime Minister and the Jew Volodymyr Zelensky (20 May 2019) became President. So much for the fable of neo-Nazi's taking over Ukraine in a right-wing coup. The neo-Nazis just provided a smoke screen for the Jew takeover.
I tell you what - at some point of my life I used to live in Odessa and all the jobs as Bankers, Accounters, Musicians, Managers, Dockers, Fisherman, Shopkeepers, Shoemakers, Bakers, Garbage haulers, Street sweepers all of those was taking over buy Jews... the only job they really didn't like to handle was to be a dirty Nazi trolls
Posted by: NoPasaran | Dec 17 2022 20:47 utc | 42
Zed,
The Ukrainian Civil War is a mere sideshow to the global war that is being unveiled in slow motion.
Posted by: Exile | Dec 17 2022 20:48 utc | 43
Watcher -30
One of the l things I like about MoA is how trolls like Moaobserver are completely ignored. Sometimes Moaobserver even answers himself under a different name because no one else will. His pretend position is that somehow China will have to save Russia.
I guess trolls need to be given a little corner sandbox to stay harmlessly busy ;)
Posted by: Moses22 | Dec 17 2022 20:50 utc | 44
A germane comment from the Viet Nam era by a US senator who flew 24 bombing missions over Fortress Europe in WW II and survived being shot down over the Mediterranean Sea. His comments about Senator John Stennis, a war hawk, are parallel to the leadership in Kiev especially to the diminutive actor in the green T-shirt.
"Every Senator in this chamber is partly responsible for sending 50,000 young Americans to an early grave... This chamber reeks of blood... it does not take any courage at all for a Congressman or a Senator or a President to wrap himself in the flag and say we are staying in Viet Nam, because it is not our blood that is being shed."[3]
He blamed his colleagues for having contributed to "that human wreckage all across our land — young men without legs or arms or genitals or faces — or hopes."[4] In a retort to the powerful Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman, John Stennis, McGovern declared, "I'm tired of old men dreaming up wars for young men to fight. If he wants to use American ground troops in Cambodia, let him lead the charge himself."
Senator George McGovern
Posted by: joephus | Dec 17 2022 20:51 utc | 45
Many thanks b for this very helpful Sitrep.
The Russian Defense Ministry reported no precise numbers but claimed that decoys were intentionally part of the strike
At the link I got a 403 Access denied.
Today Tass has details on the warm Welcome foreign mercs received from high-precision weapons strikes:
Russian Armed Forces hits base of foreign mercenaries in DPR — Defense Ministry
Russian assault teams and artillery units scattered Ukrainian troops in the Donetsk People’s Republic, Defense Ministry Spokesman Igor Konashenkov says{.}"On Friday, December 16, a massive attack was carried out on Ukrainian military command systems, defense industry facilities and related energy sites, which involved long-range air-and sea-launched high-precision weapons," Russian Defense Ministry Spokesman pointed, adding that all the targets had been hit.
Russian army thwarts Ukraine’s attempt to transfer foreign weapons to combat zone
Russia’s Armed Forces have foiled Ukraine’s attempt to transfer foreign-made weapons and munitions to the combat zone, and blocked the advance of the Ukrainian military’s reserves, Russian Defense Ministry Spokesman noted.
"The strike has disrupted the redeployment of foreign-made weapons and munitions, blocked the advance of reserves to combat areas.{.}
Posted by: Likklemore | Dec 17 2022 20:52 utc | 46
The US is building drones (made by Spektreworks). Shipping them to Poland where US forces assemble them.They then send them into Ukraine, where they are fired by US personnel. The targets are chosen by the US and followed by US satellites/spy planes, into Russian itself. (Apart from the driver of the lorry who might have the opportunity, they would be untouched by Ukrainians)
US fighting Russia directly. Medevev has already commented on this. So this is no longer a "proxy" war, or is it? Is the "US" the originator and organizer of this? If we assume that the financial element, the stripping of Russia (as in Yeltsin years) is the primary aim, then the obvious perpetrators are the Corporations or US Oligarchs (billionaires) who do not care at all how many die or are wounded except as figures on a chart. (You also could add your favourite "baddy" group here.)
So Russia has to either dissuade or reduce their ambitions as well, to be said to have "won", not just in the military sphere.
How can the two states mentioned above be achieved? (stop US expansion of the war, and at the same time stop third party ingerence).
One of the limits that I think Russia has laid down is that Belarus is to be kept out of the fighting. Otherwise it would form a weak spot in Russia's eastern defenses. It does have Russian forces as additions, but I think the key are those three Mig 31's with Khinzhal missiles. They are there visibly as a potential dissuasion for any future attack via Belarus. Also visible are the Yars missile regiments further back (12'000 km range, 3-6 Avangard manoeuvrable hypersonic warheads per unit. I don't know how many missiles per regiment).
The targets of the Khinzhals do not have to be entire cities. (Not Russian style) but could easily be aimed at major UKUS military installations. Cambridge, Ramstein, Camp Bondsteel, Fairfield (UK), Norwegien "reserves" of the US army, or financial centres. There are enough US bases to choose from around the world.
The object being to physically threaten the directors of the present proxy war personally if it escalates into other countries.
*
All of that is to say that I don't think that Russia will involve Belarus at the present time.
***
Re; the finance, Xi has made an offer to be the permanent buyer of oil and gas from the middle east, - if they use Yuan as the money of exchange. (Rubles for the rest?) The Corporate world should start to get a bit worried about future profits when the dollar becomes a dodo. "Crypto" sounds like it will go back into the darkness of the vampire Banks, and corruption on a "grand scale" is going to be the defining feature of the political circus. "give them Bread and circuses" - as a caesar once said.
***
Meanwhile back in the real world, depopulation and sterilization will gnaw at the fabric of humanity, as people start to realize the horror yet to become apparent.
***
PS. "Spektre"works would obviously have liked to call itself "Spectre"-works but they are not part of the James...Bond franchise. Anyway James is far too efficient.
Posted by: grunzt | Dec 17 2022 20:41 utc | 40
Good comment. I find the use of the term NAZI a bit of a problem, because it allows too many to deride what it is all about.
The term fascism is broader and covers a wider political concept and should be used in many but not all contexts. The NAZI idea was an extra take on fascism in that it was also racist, which fascism was also but to a much lesser extent. So the German NAZIs were fascists with an extra dash of racial purity and genocidal tendencies.
Modern fascists are not always NAZIs in the strict sense. Now some- especially the Viking worshiping types, also have more than a dash of the racial purity stuff and may rightly be called neo NAZIS. The Ukrainian fascists, seem to be racist also, but their target is different. I would prefer some new term, because NAZIs always gives rise to rubbish like Zelensky is Jewish, which is irrelevant in that he is simply a USUK patsy. How about Fascist,Racist Scum.
Posted by: watcher | Dec 17 2022 21:00 utc | 48
Of course it is constantly necessary to take into account the larger context within which all takes place - that imposed by the putative hegemonic "Pax Americana" policy that is 50% of the US (and much of other NATO countries') economy - which is very clearly portrayed in the following documentary concerning the said putative Hegemon's policy of planetary military domination from the high ground of Space (upon which all guided weapons targeting and much else depends).
Posted by: triplethink | Dec 17 2022 21:07 utc | 50
@moses22
LOL, any evidence for that assertion you made (that I answer myself under a different handle)?
I'm sure b can answer that for you..
If he doesn't ban you first for violating the simple rules of
"Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators."
Posted by: moaobserver | Dec 17 2022 21:09 utc | 51
watcher | Dec 17 2022 21:00 utc | 47
https://forward.com/news/462916/nazi-collaborator-monuments-in-ukraine/?amp=1
Its a waste of time beating about the bush. I use the term propaganda for western media as this is what it is and I use the term Nazi for Ukraine as that is what it is since 2014. When a government puts up monuments and memorials as in the link, when it changes street name, names of parks and squares ect to celebrate Nazi's, it can only be a nazi state.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 17 2022 21:15 utc | 52
This does not look good for beggars.
A demonstration of lack of care for the suffering.
Let them eat cake comes to mind.
We could ask, with whose money? I read there was no money to pay salaries but;
Mrs. Ze went on a Christmas shopping spree in Paris. In One (1)hr she spends 40,000 Euros. Social Media erupts. On Twitter 12/12/2022.
L’épouse de Mr Zelensky, Olena Zelenska, de passage à Paris aujourd’hui, aurait dépensé 40000€ lors d’un passage d’1h dans un magasin de l’Avenue Montaigne… (Source fiable : Employée du magasin en question en charge de l’encaissement des clients).
Translate Tweet.
English Source
LINK
Governments are printing billions for Ukraine. Mouse-click currency to be repaid from taxes on hard-earned income. At the gas station check-out on the screen "we stand with Ukraine. please Donate." At the pharmacy check-out "Donate, it's for the children of the war in Ukraine."
I'll leave it there.
Posted by: Likklemore | Dec 17 2022 21:15 utc | 53
Petro @ 3:
The notion that Ukraine can’t have a nazi problem because many Jews have leadership positions in the government and oligarchy right up to the President is wrong because nazi is just a word used to describe an odious system of government that was originally perfected by the British Empire.
That is the invading and taking over of foreign territories for the plundering of resources to be sent back to the mother country for its sole benefit to build and strengthen its economy at the expense of the plundered territory who receives no benefit, only loss and suffering.
The native populations of these plundered territories are dispossessed of their land and were considered to be sub-humans by their British masters who often hunted them down like wild animals and forced the survivors into controlled reservations where their basic human rights were denied.
The eugenics movement grew from this as well as many other negative consequences that persist to this day. This system is more commonly known as Western Imperialism but if you call it Nazism you are still describing the same thing so it doesn’t matter if you’re Jewish, Christian, Muslim or Hindu etc because anyone who supports and implement’s such a system can be called a nazi no matter their faith or time period.
Nazis’ are to imperialism what McDonald’s are to hamburgers - they take something that existed long before they came along and repackage it with a shiny new veneer to make it look brand new and original but at its core it’s the same old system of Western Imperialism we’ve come to know and despise!
Posted by: John G | Dec 17 2022 21:23 utc | 54
From John Helmer:
“… the Russian terms must now address the fact that the US is preparing to fight to the last German, and also to the last Pole.”
“ The longer the US and Germany aim to wage their war against Russia, the less military value there will be in Ukrainian territory as a buffer zone, in NATO membership, and in the NATO Treaty’s Article 5 provision. This modern reminder of the oath of the three musketeers — one for all, all for one – will turn into a cartoon comedy if today’s Athos, Portos, Aramis and D’Artagnan lose their swords.”
http://johnhelmer.net/hungary-asks-the-war-questions-germanys-green-fascism-is-one-of-the-answers/
Posted by: Moses22 | Dec 17 2022 21:32 utc | 55
Watcher @ 30:
I believe one significant thing that Putin did when he first became President was to eliminate outside interference by energy billionaires a and others like them in Russian politics. Jailing Yukos CEO Mikhail Khodorkovsky, compelling Roman Abramovich to take care of Chukotka region (remote area near Bering Sea) as governor and putting others like Berezovsky on notice that they could be jailed as Khodorkovsky was, were examples. (Berezovsky chose to flee to the UK.) There was obviously a lot of internal house-cleaning going on in govt administration and procedures, and if Russian media reported this as accurately and transparently as was possible at the time to the public, this could have had a galvanizing effect on people and organisations.
Doubtless also Putin's actions in ending and resolving the conflicts in Chechnya and nearby areas in the early 2000s, chasing down and eliminating people still involved in terrorist violence there, and investing in Chechnya's rebuilding has helped in myriad ways. Ramzan Kadyrov as Chechnyan leader may not be the ideal choice and there may be considerable money going into dubious projects that benefit him and his family but he has delivered stability to Chechens and remains loyal to Moscow. As long as Russia itself is stable and Chechens can find work in Russian cities and send money home to their families, the political compromise situation in Chechnya is working and is an example to other parts of Russia where ethnic conflicts might still be unresolved.
So there may not have been one moment when people realised Putin was not going to be another Yeltsin but several and those together could have had rallying effects, attracting people and resources to rebuild Russian industry.
Posted by: Jen | Dec 17 2022 21:33 utc | 56
b: "The Russian forces first send cheap Iran-designed drones as decoys and then follow up with real cruise missiles. If the first round induced the air defenses to lighten up their radar a second round will follow to destroy these."
Sounds like good practice for when the Patriot missiles show up.
Posted by: Michigan Dude | Dec 17 2022 21:35 utc | 57
"Were there moments in history when fronts suddenly collapsed and the armies losing the war, suddenly refused to fight?" Kerensky@15
The obvious case was the collapse of the Russian forces in 1917: they refused to fight for the Tsar and went home to struggle against the ruling class for 'Bread, Land and Peace'.
The curious thing is that the main loser from this was a Russian politician called Kerensky who attempted to re-start the war against the Germans. The result was the October revolution.
Another consequence, of the unimpeded advance of the German military, led by General Hoffman, was the first founding, under German auspices, of the state of "Ukraine." Which is where we came in.
Posted by: bevin | Dec 17 2022 21:36 utc | 58
Posted by: Kerensky | Dec 17 2022 19:12 utc | 15
Were there moments in history when fronts suddenly collapsed and the armies losing the war, suddenly refused to fight?
The Russian army collapsed in 1917, on account of the revolution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Army_(1917)
History rhymes?
Posted by: Anne B | Dec 17 2022 21:48 utc | 59
The enemies of America live inside the tarnished City in a Swamp, devoid of reason, of humanity, drunk on power.
Having already scrapped out American Industry and her necessary middle/working class, relying solely on a fiat financial engine, American Power now depends on bluff and belligerence. Now destroying Europe at lightspeed.
Let's hope the mad rush to Nuclear Armageddon is stifled before the Puppet-in-Chief gets to read his new lines on his Teleprompter.
Posted by: kupkee | Dec 17 2022 21:48 utc | 60
Susan #27
No country of any size is with out the corrupt oligarchs but both Russia and China have taken control of them unlike any of the western WEF countries.
Thank you for that fine statement. I might add that Russia and China have exerted considerable effort to prevent mafia bosses getting too big for their boots. This is elemental in ensuring that the rule of elected government and its laws are paramount.
In contrast, the west has enabled the melding of mafia and oligarch and in the USA at least, unions and political parties. Precise, enforced corporate partitioning is vital else you end up with a mafia state where media, military manufacture and parliament become one. Viz Ukraine.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Dec 17 2022 21:48 utc | 61
Scott Ritter on Judge Napolitano thinks that Zelensky is on his way out and Zaluzhnyi replaces him. The idea would be to come to an agreement with Russia before Russia takes Odessa and turns Ukraine into a landlocked (rump)state.
Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Dec 17 2022 21:49 utc | 62
Petro @ 3:
Neo-Nazis influence was present in Ukrainian politics well before 2014. President Yushchenko in the early 2000s rehabilitated WW2 Nazi collaborator/ ultra-nationalist Stepan Bandera by giving him posthumous honours. Yushchenko's govt and others before him were influenced or advised by people from the Ukrainian diaspora in the US and many of these people were descended from ultra-nationalists who collaborated with the Nazis in WW2 and participated in mass murders. The groundwork was done well before 2014. After 2014, neo-Nazi elements became more open and many found positions in Ukraine's security organisations. Neo-Nazi militias were incorporated into the armed forces to be considered as regular units.
It looks as if the Ukrainian Nazis have learned one very important lesson: to get into government, put up Jews and other people you persecuted into supposed positions of power, so you run the show while they ponce about and make the public believe they're in charge. Zelensky got the message early in his Presidency when he was warned off about trying to make good on his election promises.
Posted by: Jen | Dec 17 2022 21:56 utc | 63
Mannerheim: 'Soldiers of the glorious Finnish Army: "Peace has been concluded between our country and the Soviet Union, an exacting peace which has ceded to Russia nearly every battlefield on which you have shed your blood on behalf of every thing we hold dear and sacred."'Trawling twitter, especially the pro-Ukraine and psychotically fanatically Ukrainian accounts and comments… It seems Zaluzhnyi’s interview with Newsweek is percolating through… to be greeted with the “Newsweek is owned by a Russian oligarch and just Russian propaganda” and “who the fuck is Zaluzhnyi?. He’s nobody. He’s obviously a Russian” And “Mannerheim… is a Finnish football coach, so not relevant.” I think it was Caitlin Johnstone who said very early that a blue and yellow flag in a profile was a warning you were about to read something really mind meltingly stupid…
Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 17 2022 21:57 utc | 64
Jen | Dec 17 2022 21:33 utc | 55
Kadyrov. Wealth disparity. Too often we view things as black and white. I know you don't. At the moment we see the destruction of western capitalism via prioritization. Back to King/Tzar and serf days. Other end of the spectrum was early communism where all were to have the same wealth/share the wealth. Neither end of the spectrum works.
Chechnya is Muslim. Traditional Muslim society it very much socialist. The have leaders not politicians and the leaders have a responsibility to the people.
There are many different systems that work and work well and have been throughout history. So many here get trapped in some form of political or economic ideology. One size fits all type thing. I think in the multi-polar world there will be many different socio-economic systems, each best suited to the culture of the people. The old saying, a good leader/ruler brings peace and prosperity to his people.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 17 2022 22:02 utc | 65
@wagelaborer 14
You misunderstand China is and Russia too.
87% of China's economy is owned by regional banks which are responsible for recycling profits directly into their regional economies. Basically an inversion of the capitalist system where the bulk of the capital serves the oligarchs, with a tiny trickle going to the workers and even less supporting the public sector.
This is how China has sustained its growth while financing urbanization, public infrastructure and facilities, increased median income almost ten times over since the 1990s, eliminated extreme poverty and almost eliminated poverty in all but the most rural backwaters.
In China the billionaires step very carefully, because they know that they, along with any politicians they suborn, are, if caught engaging in corrupt practices, likely to be tried, and if found guilty, executed pour encourager les autres.
As for Russia, the post-Soviet jewish-Ukrainian oligarchs who looted the public and purchased the government enabling them to make out like bandits under Yeltsin (principally buying up Soviet assets for pennies on the dollar using funds from the USA and Israel see e.g. Braguinsky Serguey (2009). Postcommunist Oligarchs in Russia: Quantitative Analysis. The Journal of Law and Economics. 2009 52:2, 307-349) were decimated under Putin, who offered the семибанкирщина (Seven Bankers, six jewish) and other oligarchs a simple choice. Stay out of politics or join their dead, jailed, exiled or bankrupted peers (See e.g. Harding Luke (2007-07-02). The richer they come: Can Russia's oligarchs keep their billions - and their freedom? The Guardian).
Posted by: Hermit | Dec 17 2022 22:05 utc | 66
Likklemore | Dec 17 2022 21:15 utc | 52
Mrs Z went to Paris with a Congress Credit Card.
I saw a telegram that a female (and it’s now important to specify) member of the Rada has had an impressive breast enlargement…
Curious and cynical people implied this was U$ assistance to Ukraine.
And will help in her soon to be second career in the world’s oldest profession, once Ukraine fails…. She’ll need these assets as she’s not young and nubile like the millions of competing Ukrainian whores plying their trade across Europe Middle East and SE Asia
Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 17 2022 22:08 utc | 67
I don't think anyone takes what Ukraine says about the amount of missiles and drones being shot down with any seriousness anymore, nor can we rely on the liveuamap map to give any degree of accuracy or show the full picture. It doesn't even show a full account of the missile strikes these days.
I have been thinking this for some time now, and people like Alexander Mercouris and Alex Christoforou have come to the same conclusion as well. How can Zelensky be believed when he is also trying to get Patriot missiles and everyone knows his defence shields are shot?
Listening to Scott Ritter he compares this current phase to Hitler's Downfall where he loses the plot and has imaginary visions about parts of his military forces still existing that were destroyed long before.
Alexander Mercouris says (and I agree) that the world is getting sick and tired of Zelensky just coming out and demanding more military equipment from the West, and so in the last few days we've seen Zaluzhnyi come out instead with an absurd Christmas stocking list including 400 new tanks. Zaluzhnyi himself says he can still win the war but only if he gets this monumental new list of weapons, artillery, and tanks. Absurd mounts of all these, more than the British military alone currently has.
That's like me saying I can go to the moon if someone gives me a space rocket, launch pad, and all that is required to make it happen.
Ukraine is finished in my opinion but NATO the US and Zelensky will continue to make up more and more fairy stories as they try to cover their massive mistake of entering this war uniquely for US interests.
Posted by: George | Dec 17 2022 22:12 utc | 68
How many western people have become willing racists and have called for the genocide of the Russian People.
1. Cancel everything Russian
2. Demonize the Russian people
3. Call for their death and allow for it on social media platforms
4. Russia has never called for the death of the Ukrainian. people or culture only our side has on Russian People and culture.
How many people in the west are now war-crime supporters and have crossed the line.
If and when the west fails, how long before the west is held to the same standards that they have held the global South too.
Posted by: Peace | Dec 17 2022 22:12 utc | 69
@ watcher | Dec 17 2022 21:00 utc | 47
“Modern fascists are not always NAZIs in the strict sense.”
Taking that qualifier to a more historical level, given the pre-WWII definition of Fascism by FDR and Musselini, ie “control of the government by private and corporate entities”, the financialized West is Fascist.
Western apologists and propagandists have just sanitized the definition to obscure reality. What we are experiencing is not only Fascism, but a much more sophisticated form of the same. Given the enhanced capabilities provided by Social Psychology, people are not only unaware of it, but are conditioned to rejoice in it.
“Greed is good!”
Posted by: Michael.j | Dec 17 2022 22:13 utc | 70
... invading the largest country in Europe with a 150k force wasn't logical, so... - moaobserver | Dec 17 2022 19:44 utc | 28
... So there you have the nucleus upon which so much false narrative is based. The SMO is not an invasion, it is an intervention, by invitation, in a civil war. Since the putative Hegemon, pursuing its policy of planetary domination and therefore of imposing its will on Russia and China and all others, is engaged and will be increasingly engaged in this currently relatively local conflict, those opposed are well-advised to carefully husband and efficiently employ their resources, and to work hard to produce more for the long-term, for this is only the beginning of a time of great change.
Posted by: triplethink | Dec 17 2022 22:14 utc | 71
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Dec 17 2022 20:38 utc | 38
The only (or at least only viable) logical reason for not "destroying all junctions" would be that they can defeat anything Nato throws in the front. Also, the rail system is very redundant.
Mike Sleboda in Brian Berletic's video explained that the ukie forces managed to get in Kherson, but leaving was quite sluggish. Also they sent a force towards Zaporizhe - once the equipment train were past a certain chokepoint rail junction, the Russians hit the rail junction. Now Zelensky could either send the equipment close to the front, or take another long route back to Kiev. Zelensky decided to send that stuff to the front where they were destroyed with more and cost effective means. So there might be some logic on how and when what junctions are hit, kind of like directing current in a circuit.
Posted by: unimperator | Dec 17 2022 22:14 utc | 72
Melaleuca | Dec 17 2022 22:08 utc | 66
Zelensky has a good stash of money. The Biden laundromat is lucrative. I doubt Zelensky will survive this so his faithful wife will be landed with it. With a good set of assets the faithful wife may be able to latch onto another lucrative husband to add to her stash.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 17 2022 22:15 utc | 73
"Those who still reject holding peace talks are responsible for this situation and for the massive amount of casualties the Ukrainian army has each and every day"
To be clear that is Boris Johnson, Rishi Sunack, Joe Biden, Anthony Blinken, Jake Sulivan, Victoria Nuland, Loyd Austin, and Vlodomir Zelenski.
War criminals the lot of them.
Posted by: Ike | Dec 17 2022 19:19 utc | 21
Yep. Keep that front and centre.
Ukraine's report of how many Russian missiles they knock down is now pretty much a joke among those who closely follow the Russia's SMO.
Yesterday, Dima on the Millitary Summary Channel gave a good break down on how the Russians are packaging their missile strikes for maximum effectiveness.
Part of that packaging is designed to reveal the location of the few remaining S-300 anti-missile systems that Ukraine has left. Once their locations are discovered, they are quickly taken out. During the missile attack on Friday, the RF claimed to take out four (4) S-300 systems.
If the Ukrainians were actually doing as well taking out incoming missiles as they claim, most likely their electrical infrastruction would not be almost gone and they would not desperately be requesting and soon getting the Patriot systems from the West. This conflict has no limits to how much it has and will escalate. That is why eventually going nuclear becomes more and more likely with each passing week.
Posted by: young | Dec 17 2022 22:17 utc | 75
wagelaborer @14 et al--
You need to do some investigating of what's actually occurring within both Russia and China as your POV seems as if it stopped evolving in 2005 or so. Russia ceased being a Kleptocracy in 2002 when Putin laid down the law and reigned most of them in. For proof, look at the retaliatory legal acts and sanctions imposed by the Outlaw US Empire and its NATO vassals. In the meeting I linked to and preserved here, there's an excellent oratory about 2/3rds of the way down the transcript by Shmakov Mikhail Viktorovich of the Federation of Independent Trade Unions of Russia where he says Russia needs to address the problem of continuing to have a class of working poor, that continually raising the minimum wage as continues to be done is necessary but not altogether sufficient. If you use poverty as an inner search word, you'll see Putin using it four times in his initial oration as its reduction to zero is one of the National Projects. It's currently at 10.5%, which is far better than within the Outlaw US Empire, and those within that class have much better benefits than those within the Empire. Do the same for education and read what you find. Currently, Russia is one of the most Progressive nations on the planet with very few vestiges of neoliberalism remaining. Again, as I've suggested several times, investigate the history of Rostec, the innovative government owned conglomerate that revitalized and rejuvenated Russian industry and has made the goal of achieving technological sovereignty feasible.
Russia has an excellent partner in its quest to repair and improve itself--China--and in many ways China also acts as a role model. The organizations they've initiated are driving the emergence of the Multipolar World. Together, they are trying to end the last hegemonic monster of the Age of Plunder without sparking another World War--something that ten years ago was seen by most as impossible. Rome didn't fall in a day; it took several centuries for its internal corruption to destroy it. If Rome had similar competitors as the Outlaw US Empire, it would have fallen much sooner. What's key is the Empire's Achilles Heel is known--its Dollar Hegemony--and when that's curtailed it will suffer an implosion that will last perhaps a decade or more as it still has its European colonies it can get blood from that will slow the collapse into Depression. Ukraine is just one theatre in this overall Civilizational War as psychohistorian calls it. There's no way the Russia of 2012 could pursue what the Russia of 2022 can and is doing.
watcher | Dec 17 2022 21:00 utc | 47
"... How about Fascist,Racist Scum."
That's what Zionists are...
Posted by: donten | Dec 17 2022 22:25 utc | 77
TG @19--
The percentage of Russia's exports that are hydrocarbons is now less than 50%. I suggest you do some research and update your POV.
The "Look, Russia is a gas station masquerading as a country." quote was not Obama, as some here have suggested. It was Senator John McCain.
Say what you will about Obama, but at least he had the sense not to be photographed with US sponsored terrorists.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Dec 17 2022 22:25 utc | 79
It is notable that the 2014 coup government found positions for the Jew Arseniy Yatsenyuk (Prime Minister of Ukraine, 27 February 2014), the Jew Petro Poroshenko (President of Ukraine, 7 June 2014) and the Jew Vitali Klitschko (Mayor of Kiev, 25 May 2014) but no position was found for the (supposed) neo-Nazi Oleh Tyahnybok (Svoboda Party leader) when he lost his position in the parliament some months later (October 2014). Subsequently, the Jew Volodymyr Groysman (14 April 2016) became Prime Minister and the Jew Volodymyr Zelensky (20 May 2019) became President. So much for the fable of neo-Nazi's taking over Ukraine in a right-wing coup. The neo-Nazis just provided a smoke screen for the Jew takeover.
Posted by: Petro
The Ukie regime is an unholy alliance of NazisandJews. It can't be a good thing.
Posted by: Wokechoke | Dec 17 2022 22:26 utc | 80
Posted by: Zed | Dec 17 2022 20:02 utc | 32
The real question is - at this point - can coke Head and Zaluzhny offer any kind of viable terms? No. And they don't even want to.
With 0.999 certainty Nato will use time to rearm and next time nukes will go off. What did Zaluzhny base his strategy on? They thought "Nato armies" would appear en masse in Ukraine. They didn't. And the stream of weapons slowed down to a trickle. Few mention Himars any more - old Soviet artillery gone - M777, where are they? US counter artillery radars? Destroyed in industrial quantities. Tanks and IFVs destroyed in industrial quantities. Basically Zelensky is begging to recreate the army which he had in February, which was btw magnitudes larger than Nato ever had.
Posted by: unimperator | Dec 17 2022 22:28 utc | 81
@ike
Didn't you read the article?
Quote:
"Still, there is no talk among the troops of retreating from Bakhmut and its outskirts.
“In that respect our resolve is strong,” said Ivan"
Zelensky said "no one will forgive it" if they make peace and give up territory.
Is it wrong to think that Ukrainians want it this way? Nationalism does crazy things to people's minds.
Posted by: Vikichka | Dec 17 2022 19:37 utc | 26
It is wrong and crazy things have happened to their minds.
Nationalism in this context is simply insane, illogical, self defeating, a nonsense.
In the cause of defending 'the nation' they are happy to fight to the last man (women and children die too, goes without saying, don't register in this noble rhetoric). When the last man dies where is 'the nation'?
You think it is the land?
I don't. I think it is the people. Hence if the people are dying 'the nation' is dying. And any measures that cause the people to die are not measures 'for the nation' but measures 'against the nation'
Here is a civil war, makes it even more illogical. The nation IS divided already and suffering from that. In order to 'fix' it one brother insists upon strangling the other brother to death.
The 'other brother' got some outside help. The first brother said 'not fair' and got outside help of his own.
Actually he'd be coached and prompted and urged by that 'help' to set upon his brother from the very beginning.
And now it grows closer and closer to where the first brother's evil urger will find himself in direct confrontation with the second brother's helper.
Is that a tangled mess?
It might look like it and sound like it. Like a pub brawl or a room of fighting children. But it isn't. It's two brothers fighting because one of them, full of grudges and with an enormous inferiority complex and urged by a self serving outside monster, set upon the other.
For the brothers to look at each other and recognise they ARE the nation and every blow diminishes them is the simple answer.
Little bit more complicated than that isn't it? But not much. That's the essence of it. And that's the cure for it.
Have Ukrainians already manage to repair the damage form the yesterday's attack?
Posted by: Kerensky | Dec 17 2022 22:30 utc | 83
Wokechoke | Dec 17 2022 22:26 utc | 80
The pale of settlement https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Map_showing_the_percentage_of_Jews_in_the_Pale_of_Settlement_and_Congress_Poland%2C_The_Jewish_Encyclopedia_%281905%29.jpg
Jews were basically banished to what is now Belarus and Ukraine within the Russian empire. The pale of settlement.. So now we see the jews and nazies joining forces against current Russian federation and the ethnic Russians of Ukraine. No love lost though. The jews are feeding the nazi's into the Russian grinder. Everything has its origins in history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_of_Settlement
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 17 2022 22:37 utc | 84
Posted by: NoPasaran | Dec 17 2022 20:47 utc | 41
Just rebrand them zionist and behold - we got apartheid Israel.
And they always got room for a shabboz goy, to keep them warm at week-ends.
Posted by: Anne B | Dec 17 2022 22:39 utc | 85
Melaleuca | Dec 17 2022 22:08 utc | 66
Zelensky has a good stash of money. The Biden laundromat is lucrative. I doubt Zelensky will survive this so his faithful wife will be landed with it. With a good set of assets the faithful wife may be able to latch onto another lucrative husband to add to her stash.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 17 2022 22:15 utc | 73
Yes, I wonder about this. I think Russia has some of the very best cyber specialists in the world. Why don't they find and take all these stashes of all these criminals? Or if that's too sophisticated perhaps find their bricks and mortar wherever in the world and organise some vandalism? Or if that's too crude then at least publish ALL the details: shares, properties, businesses, bank accounts owned, locations complete address, photos, telephone numbers, email addresses.
Just simply expose these people for ALL the world to see?
That seems so obvious a measure to me. On a level with bombing (threatening at least) the Kiev dam.
The books after the war that explain all of this are going to be fascinating.
But to return to the theme: simple exposure of the individual operative monsters in all this would be tremendously effective in moulding public opinion.
But essentially, nothing remotely like it going on at all.
@Toivos 25
Do you actually think that the Ukraine has the 30,000 man army - and associates materiels - to lose, that NATO conservatively estimated in 2018 would likely be needed to overcome the defensive works Russia has spent the last 49 years building? Wven id you imagine that they have rhese reserves, do you think that rhwy have the logistical ability to deliver them into battle and support them until they die - as they inevitably will? Do you really imagine that life in the Ukraine could not get a whole lot worse? The loss of every government building in Ukraine is just one possible escalation of a large scale attack on what Russia regards as Russian soil
Do you image me that the Ukraine no longer needs the money from Russian gas transiting the Ukraine to Transnistria? Do you imagine that Moldova and Romania, which both receive electrical and thermal power from the Russian nuclear and gas plants in Transnistria will be happy to be as cold and dark for Winter as the Ukraine, or that NATO has the resources to support them? Especially after the Russian caretaker force detonates the largest remaining Soviet weapon dump which is located there - which would be likely to break windows in a 100 mile radius, perhaps more? Maybe Europe would not actually appreciate the powdered remnants of multiple nuclear reactors being dumped on them in an event guaranteed to be millions of times worse than Chernobyl?
Had you really not thought about any of the above, or were you just concern trolling?
Posted by: Hermit | Dec 17 2022 22:44 utc | 87
@ Posted by: Peace | Dec 17 2022 22:12 utc | 69
I've also seen on many readers comments and blogs a renewal to 'kill all Jews', and others say Hitler should have annihilated all Jews in WWII. It's unbelievable. While I abhor the extreme Zionism behind Israel that is shocking in its treatment of Palestinians (with US backing), people need to realise that those with Jewish backgrounds are very diverse in their opinions, and some make it worse for all the others, as it is in any country or any ethnicity on this Earth. Because I'm Anglo Saxon in heritage, that does not mean I think and operate like Joe Biden and his appalling neocons. Nor like Boris Buffoon the puppet who prolonged this war.
The point is that this same Nazi-like racism is what is being projected on Russia as well, because fundamentally the rise of fascism and Nazism in Ukraine targets those classified as 'Russians' who now serve as the new untermensch (inferior humans) - it is a prejudice driven by utter ignorance. Make no mistake this is war based on pure Racism.
Posted by: George | Dec 17 2022 22:45 utc | 88
DARPA and Ukroboronprom …
American media introduced the former Defense Minister Andriy Zagorodnyuk appointed in the first cabinet of Zelensky and Party Servant of the People. He now holds a high post ar the Atlantic Council.As minister he was responsible for the defense giant Ukroboronprom.
DARPA Memorandum of Understanding and UkroboronpromAnthony Tether, Director of the American company "Tony Tether & Associates", former head of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), became an advisor on long-term development of "Ukroboronprom". The parties signed the document on August 26, 2016.
The Joint Force in a Contested and Disordered World | Joint Chiefs of Staff - July 14, 2016 |JOE 2035 illustrates several ideas about how changes to conflict and war might impact the capabilities and operational approaches required by the future Joint Force.
Did you think I was exaggerating? Behold—witness for yourself how the children of Ukraine are being indoctrinated into being exactly like their beastly heroes.
Translated caption: “Residents of Volyn show how they will meet Belarusians”.
960-something likes in just two hours!
https://twitter.com/AniaKoniec/status/1604205378828488707
Here's the reason why Lvov is yet to burn like Donbass for so many years.
Posted by: unimperator | Dec 17 2022 22:56 utc | 91
Hermit | Dec 17 2022 22:05 utc | 65
Your comment @65 is solid, factual and concise.
But Luke Harding as a source?
Cmon man.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 17 2022 23:01 utc | 92
An invasion from Belarus would open up a can of worms, direct line of contact with Poland.
It makes sense though, they could simply set up a pocket to harass transport corridors through Lutsk and Lviv.
Posted by: Johnycomelately | Dec 17 2022 23:03 utc | 93
Have Ukrainians already manage to repair the damage form the yesterday's attack?
Kerensky | Dec 17 2022 22:30 utc | 83
Dunno. ZAnon will be along to tell us:
“Russia_ Always one step behind”.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 17 2022 23:04 utc | 94
b: Thanks for yet another remarkably astute analysis.
Myself, I'm constantly amazed that the Ukranians don't "shoot down" even MORE missiles than are actually fired! }8)
Posted by: JMF | Dec 17 2022 23:11 utc | 95
So Obama was right.
Posted by: moaobserver | Dec 17 2022 18:38 utc | 7
Obama was the last successful projection of the illusion of America. It is far too early to claim he was right about Russia, since he was wrong he about everything else. Come back in a year Mr. Observer.
Posted by: Activist Potato | Dec 17 2022 23:14 utc | 96
Pepe Escobar's returned to his home base from Brazil and published two articles: "Xi of Arabia and the petroyuan drive" and "News From the NATOstan-Imposed Meat Grinder". The first of these articles provide lots of info and is very satisfying as with a very delicious meal. The second is germane to this thread, although admittedly it doesn't add much to our discussion. The first however is full of excellent morsels, some of which I posted to the Non-Ukraine Thread where any further discussion of it ought to occur.
b on December 17, 2022 at 17:52
Lukashenko and Putin to meet in Minsk.
Shoigu was there last week… and signed military agreement docs.
I see this presidents meeting as an extension of that…
Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 17 2022 23:29 utc | 98
I guess this is the downside of moving a comment from a previous thread to another one. I was responding to reports in the previous thread of war profiteering in Russia, along with current complaints of selling off remaining Soviet assets, as well as the problems of low birthrates.
Why do we get the heart warming stories of people in Russia collecting warm socks, drones and various other items to send to the troops? Shouldn't the troops be supplied by the government?
Well, if you give a sweetheart deal to a well-connected corporation to provide millions of MREs and then they don't, (as an example) that is a problem.
I don't think that there should be for-profit enterprises at all, I think production should be oriented to need, not profit, but especially when it comes to crucial matters like supplying the troops.
I don't need to know any Russians or Chinese people to understand class relations. Providing company housing does not socialism make. My father grew up in a coal camp, company housing located right near the coal mine where his dad worked. Even in the late 70s I worked in a hospital in East LA that still had company housing and cafeteria food supplied to the nurses (mostly imported nurses).
The capitalists soon learned that having workers live together as well as work together made union organizing much easier, so company housing was phased out and individual house buying was encouraged.
Regulated capitalism is still capitalism. We had regulated capitalism and banks in the US from FDR to the 60s, when it started being chipped away, including having the 96% tax rate on the rich reduced. It didn't take long for the complete attack on workers in the 80s, under the Evil Reagan, to commence.
Improved living conditions happened in the US also, starting in FDR days, as the workers organized and the capitalists feared a revolution. They invented the term "middle class" to classify workers who had improved wage and living conditions. Unlike in China, though, they didn't proclaim that decent wages and improved living conditions were some sort of triumph of "socialism".
With the overthrow of the USSR in 1991 they didn't have to throw us bones anymore. Only the ruthless exploitation of workers in other countries enabled by NAFTA and the opening of China to western exploitation, combined with easy credit, allowed Americans to buy stuff and think they were doing well in the 90s, even as wages dropped, hours increased, and safety regulations went unenforced. Still, Dimitry Orlov pointed out that even as Russians lost their jobs and their living standards in the 90s, they still had the right to housing and they still had public transportation. In the US we have neither, and homeless people sleep in their cars to cover those two necessities.
I don't think that "there will always be oligarchs in every country". I don't think there were oligarchs in Russia or China until the 90s, and even the oligarchs in the US were somewhat restrained from New Deal reforms, until they overthrew them. Government control of oligarchs does not a class-free society make.
I hope that Russians can continue to push back against their oligarchs and stop all profiteering and corruption, and go back to using their resources for the common good. And I hope that when they throw out the Nazis in Kiev and shut down NATO, that Ukraine can join them in building a better society for all.
Posted by: wagelaborer | Dec 17 2022 23:34 utc | 99
A comment on several comments I read obsessed with Jews:
There is a well known phrase that "the best trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world that he does not exist". But I think, based on a lot of comments here, a better version of that might be: "the best trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world that he is a jew".
The prevalance of obsessive animus toward Jews is one of those little tick-marks that causes me to conclude that the God of the Old Testament is indeed God Almighty and that his Son was indeed God Man and Messiah.
Response To karlof1 | 76
Its very hard to find unbiased english sourced material on Russia from 1990-2022. Of course all sources are biased to a degree, but the narrative on Russia is so consistent as to shout: "this is BS".
When you consider what it means for a state to collapse, I am impressed by how quickly Russia has gotten back on it's feet. the natural order of things is that economic and civil order is first restored by a certain thuggish class of strong, ruthless men. Usually it takes a generation or probaby two for yesterdays gangster empire to become todays respectable businessman. But Russia seems to be moving faster than one would expect.
I think we have to give substantial credit to Putin as a skillful operator in a very predatory environment. Certainly there is still corruption in Russia, but my sense is that progress is being made - not always by punishing the corrupt, but by channeling them into legitimate directions. Perhaps all wishful thinking.
I would be interested in reading more from you on what you know about actual economic conditions in Russia. The Kinetic business in Ukraine will hopefully end soon for the sake of both Russian and Ukrainian soldiers, but the currency war against USD reserve status will continue and is where the real winners of this conflict will be decided.
Posted by: Dan Farrand | Dec 17 2022 23:44 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
On the previous Ukraine thread problems of Russian deindustrialization and depopulation were discussed. I chimed in at the end, so I will repeat my comment here, because I think the problems merit consideration.
The report on the deindustrialization of Russia is concerning and depressing. The same thing happened in the USA since 1980, the stripping of all productive capacities. You can take a train across the country and see crumbling factories and boarded up warehouses in the center of many towns and cities. A gigantic industrial plant back home was turned into a shopping center as well.
So Russia has learned that turning over production to corrupt profiteers isn't working out for them.
They have learned that having a "professional" army with contracts is only OK for about 6 months.
It turns out that production for profit, with the greediest in society doing the profiting, while stripping the natural wealth of a country, isn't the best thing for the survival of a society.
And that includes the fertility problem. Allowing the production and distribution of a for-profit GMO mRNA "vaccine" that produces spike proteins that are known to collect in the ovaries isn't the smartest thing to do if you want to increase your population.
Russia needs to completely stop its descent into neoliberalism if it is to survive.
Posted by: wagelaborer | Dec 17 2022 18:11 utc | 1