Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.
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December 11, 2022
Ukraine Open Thread 2022-222
Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict. The current open thread for other issues is here. Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Comments
Larry Johnson posted this: Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Dec 11 2022 14:08 utc | 1 I have come to the conclusion that Merkel was in a strange manner, and implicitly giving putin the causus belli for the start of SMO. Posted by: Hugo | Dec 11 2022 14:12 utc | 2 I am just contended that Russia is going to win this war. Hands down. Posted by: g wiltek | Dec 11 2022 14:15 utc | 3 I am just contended that Ukraine is going to win this war. Hands down. Posted by: not wiltek | Dec 11 2022 14:27 utc | 4 @Biswapriya Purkayast | Dec 11 2022 14:08 utc | 1 Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 11 2022 14:35 utc | 5 … In a surreal manner she gave a wink to putin. Posted by: anon2020 | Dec 11 2022 14:37 utc | 6 @ Hugo | Dec 11 2022 14:12 utc | 2 Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 11 2022 14:38 utc | 7 Commenters here should understand that a NATO defeat in Ukraine will be much easier to process by the USA amnesia machine than the vastly greater disaster in Afghanistan. 20 years and 500 billion dollars of folly, and nobody even mentions Afghanistan in the U.S. When America abandons Ukraine next year, it will be on to the next neocon debacles: Taiwan and Iran. Until Americans directly feel pain resulting from stupid wars, the stupidity will continue. Posted by: HH | Dec 11 2022 14:40 utc | 8 This war is out of control. Posted by: GoFast | Dec 11 2022 14:43 utc | 9 Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Dec 11 2022 14:08 utc | 1 Posted by: Mary | Dec 11 2022 14:47 utc | 10 Intel Slava Z seems to have gone silent. Wonder if that means something beyond taking a weekend off…🤔 Posted by: Mary | Dec 11 2022 14:50 utc | 11 HH #8 Posted by: CitizenKayne | Dec 11 2022 14:59 utc | 12 Commenters here should understand that a NATO defeat in Ukraine will be much easier to process by the USA amnesia machine Posted by: B9k9 | Dec 11 2022 15:02 utc | 13 Translated from Russian FYI:
@ Mary Posted by: Outraged | Dec 11 2022 15:03 utc | 14 Posted by: Mary | Dec 11 2022 15:09 utc | 15 @Don Bacon [7] Posted by: JessDTruth | Dec 11 2022 15:14 utc | 16
Posted by: Down South | Dec 11 2022 15:19 utc | 17 reply to 14 Posted by: Eighthman | Dec 11 2022 15:21 utc | 18 You guys should read the western Google curated news feeds. It may be full of propoganda but they wrap it around actual information. Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 11 2022 15:28 utc | 19 More intelligent leaders, like former chancellor Schroeder, understood that Germany’s only good future would be in working with Russia. But they got Merkel, whose formal education was as a chemist, so she was probably selected for her ignorance and compliance. If her stupidity wasn’t going to be enough, the main building for American wiretaps in Germany is only a block from the chancellor’s residence. We know American had 4 or 5 times more wiretaps per capita in Germany than in the next-most surveilled nation. Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Dec 11 2022 15:33 utc | 20 I am shocked, shocked to find out that the Ribbentrop-Molotov carving board is alive, well, and claiming its newest carcass to be butchered: Ukraine. Posted by: CommiesGOFY | Dec 11 2022 15:41 utc | 21 @ Mary | Dec 11 2022 14:50 utc | 11 Posted by: james | Dec 11 2022 15:43 utc | 22 @JessDTruth | Dec 11 2022 15:14 utc | 16 Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 11 2022 15:44 utc | 23 Merkel’s comments about Minsk agreements being a farce continue to cause huge aftershocks. Posted by: Sam | Dec 11 2022 15:46 utc | 24 here’s another rec for the 3 part series on a conversation between Vlahos and MacGregor on the Ukraine war and related subjects. Posted by: pretzelattack | Dec 11 2022 15:49 utc | 25 It is important to grasp that the role of the U.S. military has become largely theatrical. The 20-year disaster in Afghanistan was like the extended run of a Broadway show, a reliable crowd-pleaser generating satisfying tales of courageous troops defending isolated outposts against the Taliban hordes. Casualties were light and the war coverage and movies were satisfying. Posted by: HH | Dec 11 2022 15:52 utc | 26 Posted by: GoFast | Dec 11 2022 14:43 utc | 9 Posted by: Sparta78 | Dec 11 2022 15:58 utc | 27 🇺🇸🇺🇦 Latest $275 million US Presidential Draw Down Assistance Package for Ukraine… Posted by: unimperator | Dec 11 2022 15:59 utc | 28 On Twitter, Ukrainian supporters go on and on about how the Russians are unable to “take” Bakhmut and suffering huge losses. But the UAF is, as Alex Mercouris says losing the equivalent of a battalion a day! The Mozart Group says 70% losses for its poorly trained conscript army. This has prompted Zelensky to bring in better trained mercenaries, Poles, Brits, etc–which no doubt delights the Wagner Group who need not now pay much attention to the rules of war, and can just slaughter to their hearts content. The head of the Wagner Group says his goal is not to “take” the city but to destroy the UAF– and he is doing a good job. Russia is taking its time. Why rush? As time goes on the US digs a deeper hole. Posted by: julianmacfarlane | Dec 11 2022 16:07 utc | 29 Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 11 2022 15:28 utc | 19 Posted by: unimperator | Dec 11 2022 16:08 utc | 30 Posted by: unimperator | Dec 11 2022 16:08 utc | 30 Posted by: unimperator | Dec 11 2022 16:09 utc | 31 @unimperator | Dec 11 2022 16:09 utc | 31 Posted by: Another James | Dec 11 2022 16:16 utc | 32 US support of Ukraine good, Iran support of Russia bad. Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 11 2022 16:20 utc | 33 @28 Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 11 2022 16:28 utc | 34 No, it was all US/Ukraine who instigated the war. Merkel had no influence. Posted by: Hugo | Dec 11 2022 16:41 utc | 35 Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 11 2022 16:28 utc | 34 Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 11 2022 16:43 utc | 36 Or I just could be wrong, and b is correct (since he is german) and more than much of us, understands better who she is. Posted by: Hugo | Dec 11 2022 16:44 utc | 37 @ Hugo | Dec 11 2022 16:44 utc | 37 #36. Have to disagree. The ussr lost 25 million? How many more during the Bolshevik terror? Bled white. Now putin has to fight with mercy, prisoners, poor quality recruits, and fights with an absolute minimum number of soldiers. The ussr was all hollow only saved by Nazi tech and slave scientists. Otherwise Patton and Churchill would’ve rolled up the red menace in the 50s. Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 11 2022 16:55 utc | 39 @Hugo | Dec 11 2022 16:41 utc | 35 Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 11 2022 17:01 utc | 40 @ #17 Posted by: Morris39 | Dec 11 2022 17:02 utc | 41
Funny that the French didn’t follow your advice, and les Républicains simply committed suicide. Politicians don’t usually do that (apart from Brexiters in UK, who have suicided their country not themselves). Could it be that Macron is not unqualified (being a product of ENA, like many French presidents), is not homosexual (but rather insisted on marrying his schoolteacher, perhaps a rather strange obsession), is not a Rothschild stooge (only having worked for them for a couple of years, a sort of work experience in the banking world), and that he ran a superb campaign in 2017? Funny also how the right-wing Filon has completely disappeared from view (he is not a centrist, though not extreme right-wing). He could have made a come-back, but hasn’t. The French scene doesn’t look quite like you suggest. Posted by: laguerre | Dec 11 2022 17:05 utc | 42 @ Hugo | Dec 11 2022 16:41 utc | 35 Posted by: GoverntheMente | Dec 11 2022 17:07 utc | 43 @Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 11 2022 16:55 utc | 39
The “Bolshevik Terror” is highly overrated due to the overriding Cold War propaganda narrative. With the actual opening of the archives the actual numbers of deaths were in the 1 million range (still appalling but nowhere near the ridiculous propaganda numbers). Same when actual quality researchers such as O’Grada look at the 1930s drought (yes there was a real drought!) which affected many parts of the USSR (not just Ukraine) which was exacerbated by class war (with the kulaks) and administrative mistakes but was certainly not “directed” at any national grouping the numbers were much lower than the Cold War propaganda. Much greater losses in WW1, and the Civil War exacerbated by foreign interventions. Brexiters in UK, who have suicided their country Posted by: Gt Stroller | Dec 11 2022 17:21 utc | 45 Posted by: GoFast | Dec 11 2022 14:43 utc | 9 Posted by: AndrVU | Dec 11 2022 17:22 utc | 46 @Sam | Dec 11 2022 15:46 utc | 24 Posted by: JamesB | Dec 11 2022 17:26 utc | 47 Building on facts from Alexis Mercouris (of The Duran), the absolutely best war commentator on YouTube: Posted by: Tenet | Dec 11 2022 17:27 utc | 48 There has been something like 10000 Abrams tanks built and there are 3500 older versions mothballed. It appears that some of these are now going to be sent to Poland and the facilities for support are being built. Posted by: circumspect | Dec 11 2022 17:28 utc | 49 Nothing to be sorry for whatsoever, friend. Your English is very good, approaching excellent. Cheers. Posted by: Hugo | Dec 11 2022 17:29 utc | 50 Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 11 2022 16:55 utc | 39 Posted by: unimperator | Dec 11 2022 17:31 utc | 51 The main target was the distribution grid rather than generation facilities. Three-phase 330/110 kV autotransformers and single-phase 750/330 kV autotransformers were knocked out in substations. Posted by: Exile | Dec 11 2022 17:33 utc | 52 @44 Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 11 2022 17:38 utc | 54 Weather update: Central Ukraine and Kiev a balmy 9C, with warm southerly winds persisting. Posted by: Gt Stroller | Dec 11 2022 17:39 utc | 55 Hi ALL. In the event you missed the b’s Sitrep December 10 highlighting the conversations P1, 2, 3 Dr. Michael Vlahos w/ Col. Douglas MacGregor :-
Suggest read the full article. And if you think the current Riyadh oil trade with China is in USD, I will certify a certificate of title for 5,000 miles of beach on Mars or the Namib desert in southern Africa. Your choice. Posted by: Likklemore | Dec 11 2022 17:41 utc | 56 Posted by: circumspect | Dec 11 2022 17:33 utc | 52 Posted by: unimperator | Dec 11 2022 17:45 utc | 57
So I keep hearing. But I have difficulty imagining what form any kinetic battle might take. Neither party is stupid enough to attempt a land invasion of the other. Missile based MAD will not be an option. Posted by: Opport Knocks | Dec 11 2022 17:49 utc | 58 The bolsheviks killed principled critical thinkers Posted by: too scents | Dec 11 2022 17:50 utc | 59 unimperator | 56 Posted by: Lapin | Dec 11 2022 17:52 utc | 60 Posted by: GoFast | Dec 11 2022 14:43 utc | 9 Posted by: AndrVU | Dec 11 2022 17:52 utc | 61 Merkel recognized that Ukraine is a sovereign country that can disagree to federalize, which it did no matter what Merkel might think of it. Posted by: Hugo | Dec 11 2022 17:53 utc | 62 Soviet lend lease program totals Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 11 2022 17:53 utc | 63 Abrams also use gas as fuel Posted by: Gt Stroller | Dec 11 2022 17:55 utc | 64 Gt Stroller 63 Posted by: Lapin | Dec 11 2022 17:59 utc | 65 Pouring more weapons from the West as Abrams tanks and whatnot will create an entangled ball of fur for Ukraine, its logistic, materials, and resources. This can be another dirty trick to have NATO boots on the ground even more. Servicing and operating those needs US/NATO personnel. Posted by: whirlX | Dec 11 2022 17:59 utc | 66 Abrams also use gas as fuel Posted by: Gt Stroller | Dec 11 2022 18:01 utc | 67 The engine is a Lycoming/Honeywell gas turbine engine. Does not use gas as a fuel. Posted by: Gt Stroller | Dec 11 2022 18:05 utc | 68 @ Gt Stroller | Dec 11 2022 18:01 utc | 66 Posted by: whirlX | Dec 11 2022 18:09 utc | 69
LOL. You mean “real” Brexit hasn’t been implemented. That’s the standard Brexiter argument. You’re obviously a stab-in-the-back man; traitors have betrayed the true, divine, Brexit. The fact that it’s a complete disaster in practice, on all fronts, will never be recognised by the cultists of whom you’re obviously a member. Posted by: laguerre | Dec 11 2022 18:11 utc | 70 Don Bacon @#5 Posted by: Ed | Dec 11 2022 18:18 utc | 71 Brexit. The fact that it’s a complete disaster in practice Posted by: Gt Stroller | Dec 11 2022 18:29 utc | 72 Ed @70– It appears to me that NATO/US are preparing for war. Ukraine is opening bid, disposing of old hardware. Going to put Russia in a corner. Looks to me like few years out. This is the risk of going slow or freezing conflict. Posted by: jared | Dec 11 2022 18:41 utc | 74 No, it was all US/Ukraine who instigated the war. Merkel had no influence. Posted by: Ed | Dec 11 2022 18:43 utc | 75 Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 11 2022 18:31 utc | 72 Posted by: Ed | Dec 11 2022 18:50 utc | 76 There is no way it is in nations interest to provoke Russia in this manner. It is risk to nation and an expense to nation. It is done only for commercial interest and so individuals benefit from this. They are however acting contrary to nations interest. Posted by: jared | Dec 11 2022 18:57 utc | 77 Intel Slava Z seems to have gone silent. Wonder if that means something beyond taking a weekend off…🤔 Posted by: Ed | Dec 11 2022 18:58 utc | 78 They are however acting contrary to nations interest. Posted by: Ed | Dec 11 2022 19:01 utc | 79 Posted by: Gt Stroller | Dec 11 2022 18:29 utc | 71 Posted by: laguerre | Dec 11 2022 19:01 utc | 80
Then why did Ukraine sign the subsequently UN ratified Minsk 2 agreement which committed them to initiate federalization? Among other things. Germany and France were supposed to monitor the follow up and report back regularly to the Normandy 4 format. Posted by: Opport Knocks | Dec 11 2022 19:07 utc | 81 But remember that in 1999, Serbia was defeated by a 78 day air campaign with almost no US/NATO boots on the ground. Posted by: Exile | Dec 11 2022 19:20 utc | 82 Looks like half a handful of HIMARS managed to get to a supposed Russian/Wagner barracks … Posted by: CM of Berlin | Dec 11 2022 19:20 utc | 83 In a war like the US Proxy is waging against Russia, I agree with you. But remember that in 1999, Serbia was defeated by a 78 day air campaign with almost no US/NATO boots on the ground. Posted by: 600w | Dec 11 2022 19:26 utc | 84 @ Posted by: unimperator | Dec 11 2022 17:45 utc | 56 Posted by: BroncoBilly | Dec 11 2022 19:27 utc | 85 GoFast @ 9 Posted by: oldhippie | Dec 11 2022 19:31 utc | 86 @62 NoFuqueingFuture Posted by: safe | Dec 11 2022 19:34 utc | 87 For: neofeudalfuture, @62 Posted by: logosApplied | Dec 11 2022 19:34 utc | 88 @73 Jared Posted by: safe | Dec 11 2022 19:42 utc | 89 Abrams tanks are too heavy for European theatre, too wide to cross bridges, too complicated to maintain and not special in anything Posted by: Jusses | Dec 11 2022 19:43 utc | 90
But he is not wrong. The goal then as now is whatever it takes to weaken both Germany (F the EU) and Russia and drive another generational wedge between them. My USSR born (Russian) partner, born in 1963, still loathes everything about Germany even as I attempt to explain that they are a hollow vassal. Posted by: Opport Knocks | Dec 11 2022 19:46 utc | 91 re: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 11 2022 17:53 utc | 62 Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 11 2022 19:51 utc | 92 @89 OK Posted by: safe | Dec 11 2022 20:03 utc | 93 The news about Merkel interview hit the russian allies like a bombshell. Serbian presidet Vucic looks shocked and upset. It will also not disappears without leaving any traces behind chinese president Xi. Posted by: Ćevapčići | Dec 11 2022 20:16 utc | 94 But remember that in 1999, Serbia was defeated by a 78 day air campaign with almost no US/NATO boots on the ground. Posted by: Ed | Dec 11 2022 20:16 utc | 95 Abrams also use gas as fuel, requiring a duplicate infrastructure transportation system along with liquid naphta and diesel. They are thirsty beasts so you need a lot more dense concentration of gas distribution points – on the east side of the Dnieper… Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Dec 11 2022 20:21 utc | 96 Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 11 2022 16:55 utc | 39 Posted by: Chen Laoshi | Dec 11 2022 20:26 utc | 97 Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 11 2022 16:55 utc | 39 Posted by: Chen Laoshi | Dec 11 2022 20:26 utc | 98 The bolsheviks killed principled critical thinkers Posted by: Ed | Dec 11 2022 20:28 utc | 99 @Ed Posted by: Ćevapčići | Dec 11 2022 20:29 utc | 100 |
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