Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 04, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-217

Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Posted by b on December 4, 2022 at 14:44 UTC | Permalink

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I got nothing but Go Russia

Posted by: jo6pac | Dec 4 2022 15:05 utc | 1

the temperature in the Donbas will warm up from December 9th to December 18th. December 9th until the 18th the ground will not be frozen during the daytime. This could cause a delay in any major offensive until the ground freezes 24 hours each day. https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/ukraine/donetsk/ext

Posted by: young | Dec 4 2022 15:17 utc | 2

I hadn't seen the link to Al Jazeerah on Biden's hostility to Europe before.
Thanks for the education. Assuming that , once educated in the full animosity of Biden's actions in cutting off Europe from Russian energy, Europe will throw out its Atlantacists and self-heal.

Oddly enough this reverses the runes on Brexit. Whereas once we Brits were increasingly frustrated at EU dreams of being a military power, and mincing food regulations, we Brits are the ones now , separated from EU consultations and still-born as a reject of the US Empire.

Looking back it seems that Britain has been singled out by the US for special punishment for daring to disobey Obama over Brexit. For sure the answer to Biden's betrayal of the UK can now NO LONGER be more Atlantacist poodling to the US. Phew! That option was ALWAYS doomed.

Britain still has a potential majority / mandate for a left leaning Corbynite government, totally opposite to the Fascist - Zionust incumbent Su-cker Starmer. Starmer is completely unelectable because he is farther to the right than the cringe arseholes of Tory rah rah.

The left must get it's backside into gear, explain to people that Biden hates us, Russia respects us and the tiller must be turned fully about turn to join the Nazi- hating , friend of China, Putin.
MIND THE BOOM! Full speed ahead on an anti-Atlantacist, mild Socialist course.
Britons never never will be Biden's slaves!

Posted by: Giyane | Dec 4 2022 15:32 utc | 3

The delay in the offensive simply gives the RF more time to prepare. It is taking Bakhmut and has already taken Adeevka and several other of Ukrainian fortified bastions in their Maginot Grid. A few more weeks and they can take the rest of Eastern Ukraine pretty easily. Then comes Western Ukraine. Let us hope that Zelensky is taken too -- and put on trial as Eichmann was for crimes against humanity. It would be a moral statement. https://julianmacfarlane.substack.com/p/zelensky-hero-or-villain He is a little man, a joke, but still a mass murderer. An Ukrainian Bundy. "Well-meaning, decent people will condemn the behavior of a Ted Bundy, while they’re walking past a magazine rack full of the very kinds of things that send young kids down the road to be Ted Bundys." (Ted Bundy, as quoted in my article) Evil is indeed banal.

Posted by: julianmacfarlane | Dec 4 2022 15:38 utc | 4

Posted by: jo6pac | Dec 4 2022 15:05 utc | 1

"I got nothing but Go Russia"

Oh brother, how I appreciate this opening comment. Thank you. Seconded.

Posted by: Mexicana | Dec 4 2022 15:49 utc | 5

From the previous section.


Posted by: bevin | Dec 4 2022 0:32 utc | 83

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/12/ukraine-open-thread-2022-215/comments/page/1/#comments

A blockbuster of a report. Gives chapter and verse for what should have been obvious to the European politicians before February:-

"With cheap Russian gas, Europe was actually on the correct path towards a renewable future, because it takes years to build up capacity, and Europe was progressing very well on that front, as the gradual reduction of fossil fuel capacity and the increase in renewable energy generation over the past 20 years showed. But by suddenly trying to jettison Russian energy without a viable alternative in hand, Europe has embarked on a futile journey that risks complete economic ruin."

https://www.leftbrainwave.com/2022/11/the-coming-european-economic-apocalypse.html#TOC2

Chapter 5, the "Deindustrialisation of Europe", with emphasis on the deindustrialisation of the major European industrial power, is grim.

The report needs a military counterpart. After all, if Russia were in the wrong and had invaded Ukraine with no justification, it ought to be resisted no matter the cost. And that is still what many in Europe, particularly in Northern Europe, believe - that we are engaged in a just war even if a losing war.

I see no detailed account of events leading up to February that explicitly shows that that belief is wrong. With the shelling across the LoC increasing, with a powerful Ukrainian army poised on that LoC, and in the context of the stated intention of the Kiev extremists to drive out or ethnically cleanse the pro-Russian part of the population of the Donbass, it would have been grossly irresponsible for the Russians not to have pre-empted a Ukrainian attack.

Had they not done so we would have seen carnage in the Donbass exceeding even the carnage we saw in 2014/2015 and in the years following.

Bluntly, the West was supporting neo-Nazis in their intention of ethnically cleansing the Donbass. The Russians had no choice but to intervene to stop that. Until we in Europe, and particularly in Germany, understand that then we are valiantly - if incompetently - fighting an unjust war. A war in which we are in the wrong, not the Russians.

Baud does say that, but not as comprehensively or as forcefully as is needed. Few others focus on that central point.

So you have linked to a summary that shows how incompetently we are fighting this war. Is there an equally detailed summary that shows that, irrespective of whether we like Russians or Germans or Americans, or Brits for that matter, the key point is that the West is in the wrong in supporting neo-Nazis over-running the Donbas in early 2022 and that Russia was in the right in stopping them?

Unless that can be got over to the peoples of the West, this murderous and unnecessary confrontation will continue to damage - maybe to wreck - our various countries.

Posted by: English Outsider | Dec 4 2022 15:51 utc | 6

I would like to thank Karl Sanchez for having posted at his VK wall, a machine translation of Lavrov's recent presser regarding European security. I consider it a privilege to have read it.

Posted by: David Levin | Dec 4 2022 15:55 utc | 7

Another main trigger of the SMO was Zelenski blabbing on about using "nuclear" weapons. Probably dirty bombs, as even the US idiocracy wouldn't hand Zelenski and his neo-nazi lunatics real nuclear weapons.

Besides the US/ZATO know the first actual nuclear attack on Russia (that's what Z claimed he wanted), even "limited", would see Washington turned into a radioactive smoking hole in a matter of minutes.

Many factors made Putin to move when/where he did. Bit move Russia did. And it will move again when the situation dictates.

Posted by: Old canadian | Dec 4 2022 16:02 utc | 8

English outsider 6

I 100 % agree with what you wrote, except that global warming is permanently swept under the carpet by the US by outsourcing manufacturing to China, and by the lunatic idea that switching heating from burning gas to leaky refrigerant technology will make matters worse.

Ukraine is a massive diversion from the climate crisis. Sunak's ✌ to Cops says it all

Posted by: Giyane | Dec 4 2022 16:03 utc | 9

@Giyane | Dec 4 2022 15:32 utc | 3
explain to people that Biden hates us

There is a persistent yet wrongful willingness to blame the US president for US for acting autocratically and fomenting war, when actually Bush, Obama, Biden etc have acted with the full support of the two political parties (more are not allowed by the two) and the bought-and-paid-for US Congress. Trump is the only president who has acted autocratically in ending war (Afghanistan and Korea) while dissing NATO . . .and as a result of 'wrongful' (not) behavior enduring two impeachments and other congressional put-downs.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 16:21 utc | 10

Is Zelensky a puppet or does he have some leverage in his relationship with the US. Consider the president’s son had a sweetheart deal with a notorious Ukrainian oligarch who is now under US sanctions. That’s what we know about. We know that Trump was trying to find evidence about Democrats and potential corruption in Ukraine.

If there is evidence of significant corruption it’s held by Ukrainians. And you can bet that people would gather it and hold it as protection and/or leverage. Potentially, there’s a lot of leverage there. Imagine a scenario where a sitting president and his party are outed for massive, personal corruption in a place they’re fighting a war at great cost to the US treasury. This isn’t quite like standard US foreign policy corruption where it goes through US firms that politicians have connections to (see, Cheney and friends, etc.) It’s not like take Iraqi oil fields so US companies can control and profit. It’s a lot more personal and individual.

I think it raises the question of how much freedom of action Biden actually has. No doubt he wanted this war. It’s been his personal project going back to 2008. But that doesn’t mean his action isn’t constrained by fear and it could well include the biggest names in the Democratic Party. I’m of the opinion that he ran to launch this war because it was a long term project of the Clinton machine and their neocon foreign policy people. But there is usually more than one reason for most decisions. Now that it’s going tits up there is probably more than one reason why it has to continue.

Posted by: Lex | Dec 4 2022 16:23 utc | 11

@English Outsider | Dec 4 2022 15:51 utc | 6
irrespective of whether we like Russians or Germans or Americans, or Brits for that matter, the key point is that the West is in the wrong in supporting neo-Nazis over-running the Donbas in early 2022 and that Russia was in the right in stopping them

Unfortunately Russia is burdened with a weak foreign minister who has never made the news, never been quoted by any news source. Meanwhile we have the US FM showing up everywhere spouting his "unprovoked invasion" baloney without any comeback.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 16:33 utc | 12

@ David Levin | Dec 4 2022 15:55 utc | 7

thanks david! and thank you karlof1 - much appreciated.. lavrov is brilliant and always worth the read..

@ Lex | Dec 4 2022 16:23 utc | 11

although it does appear personal with biden, this set up in ukraine has been natos wet dream for a long time.. they kept on pushing, no matter who the usa president was... it is about all the money to be made off war by the usual suspects.. although what you say is also interesting as it is an unique set up here with corruption involving the sitting president who has had a hand and son in all of this.. i guess the question here is - will the military, energy and banking complex let the media reveal anything? seems to me the media is completely owned and part of this same triple complex... they no longer function as a media, but as a rubber stamp to this same complex.. that is why i imagine nothing will come of this, although i predict a very rocky road ahead for biden, especially into the spring... who knows? maybe it will be way worse and biden has to exit.. i can't see how the money taps from ukraine keep running though if that is the case.. well - i suppose they just get another leader who is the same as all the previous ones!! i am very cynical..

Posted by: james | Dec 4 2022 16:44 utc | 13

Unfortunately Russia is burdened with a weak foreign minister who has never made the news, never been quoted by any news source. Meanwhile we have the US FM showing up everywhere spouting his "unprovoked invasion" baloney without any comeback.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 16:33 utc | 12

LOL. +1.

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 4 2022 16:46 utc | 14

. . .from the Official Journal of the European Union
DECISIONS
COUNCIL DECISION (CFSP) 2022/2369
of 3 December 2022
amending Decision 2014/512/CFSP concerning restrictive measures in view of Russia’s actions
destabilising the situation in Ukraine . .here

from France 24
Russia: price cap is 'dangerous' and will not curb demand for our oil

Russia said on Saturday it would continue to find buyers for its oil, despite what it said was a "dangerous" attempt by Western governments to introduce a price cap on its oil exports.
A coalition of Western countries led by the G7 group of nations agreed on Friday to cap the price of Russian seaborne oil at $60 a barrel, as they aim to limit Moscow's revenues and curb its ability to finance its invasion of Ukraine. Russian President Vladimir Putin and high-ranking Kremlin officials have repeatedly said that they will not supply oil to countries that implement the price cap. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 16:55 utc | 15

@ Bemildred | Dec 4 2022 16:46 utc | 14
LOL. +2
Show me.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 16:57 utc | 16

@julianmacfarlane "An Ukrainian Bundy."

For a moment, I thought you were referring to Al Bundy, of the 90's sitcom "Married With Children"

Posted by: ian | Dec 4 2022 17:01 utc | 17

If only the United States were a democracy (sigh). . .
. . . .from Responsible Statecraft
Survey: Americans want to scale back military entanglements

According to a new poll, perhaps not surprisingly, many Americans across party lines would like the U.S. to have a less interventionist and meddlesome foreign policy. 
The results of a Morning Consult survey show that there continues to be substantial public support for scaling back U.S. military entanglements. Large blocs of Republicans and Democrats are in favor of less involvement in the affairs of other countries in general, and a plurality of Americans supports decreasing overseas deployments and reducing involvement in foreign conflicts. 
While there were slight fluctuations over the course of the three-month survey, there were more voters that said they wanted a decreased military presence and a reduced role in foreign wars than chose the status quo or a larger role. The disconnect between what this plurality of voters wants and what the government is doing in different parts of the world is as big as it has ever been. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 17:07 utc | 18

The report needs a military counterpart. After all, if Russia were in the wrong and had invaded Ukraine with no justification, it ought to be resisted no matter the cost. And that is still what many in Europe, particularly in Northern Europe, believe - that we are engaged in a just war even if a losing war.

I see no detailed account of events leading up to February that explicitly shows that that belief is wrong.

Posted by: English Outsider | Dec 4 2022 15:51 utc | 6

Have a look at Understanding The Great Game in Ukraine from the same author. I didn't have the time yet to read it but at a first glance, it might contain what you're looking for.

Posted by: Zet | Dec 4 2022 17:09 utc | 19

@ ian

Me to, but with the Jewish twist.. especially with that statement; "Ukraine will be a new Jewish State", - claim in late February..

Posted by: T S | Dec 4 2022 17:10 utc | 20

@12 I would think Russia has decided it's a waste of time and energy trying to compete with Western media. They know anything they say, anything, gets twisted and used against them.

Posted by: dh | Dec 4 2022 17:10 utc | 21

Unfortunately Russia is burdened with a weak foreign minister who has never made the news, never been quoted by any news source.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 16:33 utc | 12

I think it's the other way: Russia's foreign minister is far too knowledgeable and articulate to suit the lamestream media's propaganda aims.

Posted by: David Levin | Dec 4 2022 17:11 utc | 22

Russia should pray for warm weather itll delay a Natoized Ukrainian offensive this winter, centered on cutting the land bridge and threatening svererodonestk and lysischansk. They've been releasing pics of Russia military buildings in Marioupal so it means they're watching closely which means they intend to move towards it. The media gets the story because they're following the loose lips sink ships but is Russia paying attention? Dubious they too busy sending human waves directly into prepared Ukrainian positions at bahkmut.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Dec 4 2022 17:15 utc | 23

@ David Levin | Dec 4 2022 17:11 utc | 22

i think don is being sarcastic.. it was quite funny if read that way..

Posted by: james | Dec 4 2022 17:15 utc | 24

I think it's the other way: Russia's foreign minister is far too knowledgeable and articulate to suit the lamestream media's propaganda aims.

Posted by: David Levin | Dec 4 2022 17:11 utc | 22
.
.
It is exactly like that !!!!
The weak, stupid talkers who call themselves foreign ministers can be found in the west!

Posted by: mo3 | Dec 4 2022 17:22 utc | 25

@ 23

If "human waves" means f**k-ton of artillery shells sure...

The Ukrainians have been able to keep up their "heedless of losses" attitude.

However that may only hold when they outnumbered the RF. What happens when the RF has numerical parity or superiority?

Posted by: Urban Fox | Dec 4 2022 17:30 utc | 26

Ukraine having gone so big in so many offenses while moving troops to new front lines, while the weather delivers rain and above freezing temps, has left the AFU stuck in muddy trenches, while having their mobility reduced by the need to avoid going off road.

Russia has better trenches and fortifications along the lines of conflict, with a decent system for pulling troops back away from them to take breaks and clean up. And Russia has many more tracked vehicles. The exception to this being areas where Ukraine is entrenched in towns, or the fortified sites that they've had ample time to prepare.

Being in a wet trench at just above freezing is likely worse than being in a dry one at just below freezing. Not to mention the diseases that breed in such wet conditions.

Even worse for the AFU is that retreating from positions at risk of being overrun can be more problematic when only the roads aren't muddy obstacles to maneuver through.

Zelenskyy keeps putting more troops into the fray, so Ukrainian positions aren't simply collapsing, nor is the AFU incapable of mounting assaults due to a lack of manpower. This probably suits Russian commanders just fine, as when the ground does freeze and looks to stay frozen the battlefield is going to show a lot of enemy concentration in a very limited number of places, and big moves by mobile Russian infantry and tanks will be able to destroy Ukrainian supply chains, and assets located in the rear such as command posts, radar installations, artillery and missile launchers.

If this mud keeps the AFU from succeeding in pulling off a bold offensive that sends some Russian units reeling in retreat, then that will offset the gains that Russia could be making with offensives over frozen ground.

Ukraine has several bets on the table right now, and the odds against them winning keeps growing. They have to win, while Russia just has to not lose, and to keep grinding away. A big move on their part will imo likely only happen when it can unfold over a lot of different territory, and it can't be realistically resisted.

Russia hasn't been playing to win territory, but I think they will soon travel over a lot of Ukrainian territory while dominating it, as they maneuver to best be able to destroy massed Ukrainian forces. Russian forces not participating in that will get reinforced so as to attack any and all massed Ukrainian forces that seek to retreat from the front lines.

Posted by: Babel-17 | Dec 4 2022 17:36 utc | 27

One HUGE advantage that Russia has over the US is its strong knowledgeable FM and its foreign policy team.

Since the beginning of the SMO, while the US foreign team has mostly been filling the air waves with sound bytes of questionable honesty, the Russian team has accomplished the following.

Both China and Iran are now flat out allies of Russia.

India is buying as much Russian stuff as can be delivered. And trade between India, Russia, and China is being done in Rubles, Rupees, and Yuan.

Saudi Arabia and UAE are firmly in the Russian campaign.

With a few hiccups, Russia has been mostly successful in bringing together Central Asia and working with them diplomatically and economically.

South America, most notably Brazil and Argentina, are looking for more trade and cooperation with Russia.

Indonesia and several African nations are becoming stronger trade partners with Russia.

There is more, but I think this shows that the Russian FM and his team have performed astoundingly well.

Posted by: Woke American | Dec 4 2022 17:36 utc | 28

Giyane | Dec 4 2022 15:32 utc | 3


Europe will throw out its Atlantacists and self-heal.

What makes you think EU elites are different from "Brit" elites?


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/04/striking-uk-workers-playing-into-putins-hands-says-zahawi

"Striking UK workers playing into Putin’s hands, says Zahawi"


"If you can afford to pay your bills, Putin will have won"

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Dec 4 2022 17:40 utc | 29

The pictures of the “military building” in Mariupol is a hospital. It was built by the Russian military. Says so right on top the building. Also, it’s the same hospital that was previously famous for minute when a pro-Ukrainian resident posted a video complaining that in 30 years Kiev didn’t manage to build anything and then the Russians show up and build a nice medical center in a few months. It was also featured on Russian propaganda channels highlighting the state of the art equipment.

It is funny that Ukrainian propaganda assumes the Russian military would paint “here we are!” on the roof of a building. Even funnier that Ukrainian/US propaganda distributors in the west A. Don’t speak any Russian and B. assume that nobody else does either.

Posted by: Lex | Dec 4 2022 17:42 utc | 30

dh | Dec 4 2022 17:10 utc | 21

Propaganda is a tool used by governments to convince its people to sacrifice their lives for them.

The average healthy person doesn't want to die and particularly not in a trench full of sewage. It takes a lot to get them to leave home and loved ones knowing there is a good chance they will never return.

The Empire has to work really hard to establish, in the minds of its people, a sense of mortal dread of Russia. Not easy because Russia is simply not an existential threat to the Empires people.

Russia on the other hand does not have to spend a cent on propaganda to convince its citizens that the Empire is an existential threat. Ukraine does a lot of the heavy lifting for Russia by the peculiar habit of its soldiers filming the torture and execution of Russian soldiers. The US administration assists Russia by adopting a policy towards the country that make it obvious that the Empire has nothing but ill intentions to the Russian people.

The propaganda by your governments is aimed at you. Learn to recognize it and you will become immune to it.

Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 17:42 utc | 31

Long thought provoking article on various aspects and paths for De-Dollarization - technical and neutral in approach

https://www.goldmoney.com/research/winter-in-central-europe-and-for-the-dollar

Posted by: Exile | Dec 4 2022 17:44 utc | 32

@ David Levin | Dec 4 2022 17:11 utc | 22
Russia's foreign minister is far too knowledgeable and articulate to suit the lamestream media's propaganda

It may be true, but countering Blinken's repeated loud disinformation campaign requires more, unfortunately getting down to Blinken's level for some verbal combat. Trench warfare, if you will. The average person in the world, deprived of moa, just doesn't get the truth, that there is a reason for what Russia is doing, and the US or any country would normally act the same.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 17:46 utc | 33

@ David Levin | Dec 4 2022 17:11 utc | 22
Russia's foreign minister is far too knowledgeable and articulate to suit the lamestream media's propaganda

It may be true, but countering Blinken's repeated loud disinformation campaign requires more, unfortunately getting down to Blinken's level for some verbal combat. Trench warfare, if you will. The average person in the world, deprived of moa, just doesn't get the truth, that there is a reason for what Russia is doing, and the US or any country would normally act the same.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 17:46 utc | 34

It's sad how buckbroken and impotent vatniks are now, even if it's funny. I liked when they were so sure of themselves and gave out hard deadlines. Kiev in 3 days. In 2 weeks. Leaving Kherson? Never, it's a nuclear redline. Bakhmut tomorrow. The day after tomorrow. Next month.

Nowadays it's just cope and vague intimations of mobilization turning the tide in an indistinct, distant future. They no longer have the balls to make statements they know will be shattered within a month.

Posted by: James Grip | Dec 4 2022 17:48 utc | 35

Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 17:46 utc | 34

So how pray tell is Russia supposed to get its voice heard in the Empire ?

I would suggest any effort by Russia to get its point across has been and will continue to be pointless.

Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 17:51 utc | 36

@ James, I agree that this is a long term plan independent of any particular US admin. Little Bush was the one who initially pushed for Ukraine in NATO. Of course many of the foreign policy bureaucracy are veterans of both dem and GOP admins (Nuland is a good example). It’s a Biden project though in current manifestation. He had the Ukraine brief because he wanted it in the Obama admin and he placed his favorite lackeys from that time in higher posts as president. I assume that it is both personal and ideological for him.

I don’t think there will be media revelations. I do think that the possibility of them is a potential, constraining factor on his behavior. Partly because power brokers in Kiev hold the most important cards so he can’t be sure that if they release evidence that it can be swept under the rug. He also wouldn’t know exactly what they have. He can be sure that any revelations about him personally would be leveraged by domestic political opponents. The Twitter revelations make it at least slightly harder to run a coverup and Twitter is no longer a safe space for him to control the narrative.

Still, more of a subsurface current than anything we’re likely to hear about unless he abandons Zelensky. And that’s my main point. If he’s compromised the thesis that Zelensky is just a puppet needs revising because he’s a puppet with more power than one should allow a puppet to have. At some point the US needs to cut and run to save face but may not be able to because Biden was a greedy, corrupt and left himself vulnerable.

Posted by: Lex | Dec 4 2022 17:52 utc | 37

The average healthy person doesn't want to die and particularly not in a trench full of sewage. It takes a lot to get them to leave home and loved ones knowing there is a good chance they will never return.
...

The propaganda by your governments is aimed at you. Learn to recognize it and you will become immune to it.
Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 17:42 utc

Unfortunately someone more famous beat you to this idea:

“Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

I'm sure most MoA inhabitants know this one by heart... out of the mouths of war criminals...

Posted by: Old canadian | Dec 4 2022 17:52 utc | 38

@ Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 17:46 utc | 34 who wrote
"
...but countering Blinken's repeated loud disinformation campaign requires more, unfortunately getting down to Blinken's level for some verbal combat. Trench warfare, if you will.
"

Just like the complaints that the Russia SMO is not being Bully enough, you are complaining that the information from the non-empire camp must get down into the sewers with Blinken and the like.

That is exactly the point Don, the RoW refuse to lower themselves to act like the Bully of empire....we are attempting to deprecate that meme in our species.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 4 2022 17:53 utc | 39

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 17:46 utc | 33

You must be American to even speak of Blinken who is another US nonentity chosen simply because his name was on the list from the Foreign Affairs Council and his cut-out WestExec Advisors which was a front for Jigsaw owners of Google.

Blinken is a total complete nonentity representing a nonentity regime head to oblivion. The US is peripheral to world affairs but has not yet recognised its own irrelevance, yet everyone else has.

Only Americans think diplomacy is conducted on TV.
Real countries cut real deals discreetly

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Dec 4 2022 17:53 utc | 40

reply to 3

Britain's collective imperial mind set is frightening in what it suggests - namely that warmongering is eternal, undying. Never mind the decaying healthcare, the social rot or even the actual strength of its military. Then we have the Confederacy which planned to invade Cuba and maybe parts of South America.

Many Western nations are dying already (birth rates) and STILL insist on pushing hostility.

Posted by: Eighthman | Dec 4 2022 17:56 utc | 41

headline
"Zelensky Seeks To Ban Russian Orthodox Church In Ukraine"

Probably the US will try to stop it? . .hah
The International Religious Freedom Act of 1998 was passed to promote religious freedom as a foreign policy of the United States, to promote greater religious freedom in countries which engage in or tolerate violations of religious freedom, and to advocate on the behalf of individuals persecuted for their religious beliefs and activities in foreign countries. The Act was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on October 27, 1998. Three cooperative entities have been maintained by this act to monitor religious persecution. . . .wiki

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 18:00 utc | 42

James Grip | Dec 4 2022 17:48 utc | 35

Lots of dead bodies James and Ukraine is running desparately short of men. Seeing as the "Vatniks" are so incompetent there is no issue for you to leave the safety of your keyboard and volunteer for Ukr

They will take anybody, even you.

Good luck on the eastern front and I look forward to you regaling us with the time you killed 100s of Russians with just your pocket knife.

Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 18:01 utc | 43

The report needs a military counterpart. After all, if Russia were in the wrong and had invaded Ukraine with no justification, it ought to be resisted no matter the cost. And that is still what many in Europe, particularly in Northern Europe, believe - that we are engaged in a just war even if a losing war.

I see no detailed account of events leading up to February that explicitly shows that that belief is wrong.

The Russian Federation is the successor state to the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire.

As such it has sovereignty over the whole of the FSU.

By definition it cannot invade it's own sovereign territory.

The current SMO is for the express purpose of enforcing upon the ROW that inconvertible fact. By gunpoint or missile point or nuclear detonation if necessary.

In summary, it does not matter what reportage you can/cannot find to justify Russia's imposition of an SMO upon Ukraine. What matters is when you and those who put you up to posting here get the message, regardless of how you receive it, or whether you survive receiving it.

INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Dec 4 2022 18:07 utc | 44

@psychohistorian | Dec 4 2022 17:53 utc | 39
the RoW refuse to lower themselves to act like the Bully of empire
. . .So a PR strategy promoting ignorance is a good idea. (not)

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 18:10 utc | 45

Old canadian | Dec 4 2022 17:52 utc | 38

I have previously mentioned that quote by the famous German with very small testicles.

It might be well known by some of the regular barflies but the frequency that the "Russia sucks at propaganda" bs hits these threads suggests most readers do not.

Not being aware of propaganda makes one susceptible to it. Important to keep the reminding everyone of that quote.

Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 18:11 utc | 46

@Paul Greenwood | Dec 4 2022 17:53 utc | 40
Only Americans think diplomacy is conducted on TV. Real countries cut real deals discreetly
No, real countries recognize that truth is important and so they strive to tell their side of the situation. Go for the 'hearts and minds' publicly and not "discreetly." Afraid of causing offense? . . .No. Just do it. Give truth a chance and don't be discreet about it.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 18:12 utc | 47

Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 17:46 utc | 34

Oh FFS

Lavrov is out there everyday having a blast at the west.

Only trouble is unless you have found an uncensored source you won't hear it. People have to do a bit of searching on the internet for that.

Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 18:18 utc | 48

In response to
"
@psychohistorian | Dec 4 2022 17:53 utc | 39
the RoW refuse to lower themselves to act like the Bully of empire
. . .So a PR strategy promoting ignorance is a good idea. (not)
Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 18:10 utc | 45
"

The RoW is watching all this very closely and learning from the experience....not becoming more ignorant as you posit.

This experience is exposing all the bad shit we don't want imposed on us as a species by bullies. The international government structures that evolve from the end of this shit show will be much different than the current nice words but no compliance capabilities of the current UN

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 4 2022 18:24 utc | 49

Death Grip | Dec 4 2022 17:48 utc | 35

I'm more worried about the reaction of propagandised normies in the UK and the US if and when Russia starts advancing again. The war propaganda machine is so full-spectrum I think it's possible there may be calls for full NATO involvement on the grounds that

a) "it'll all be over by Christmas once NATO are involved"

b) "no chance of a nuclear war, Putin will be overthrown first"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/29/ukraine-tanks-west-putin-russia-churchill

The commenters here (assuming they aren't all coming from an underground room in Utah) seem to be holding two diametrically opposed ideas at once

a) Russia is corrupt and incompetent, its military a shambolic laughing stock

b) said military poses a huge threat to Europe, Britain and the world.

Does not compute, but who said a religious message had to be internally consistent?

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Dec 4 2022 18:28 utc | 50

other main trigger of the SMO was Zelenski blabbing on about using "nuclear" weapons. Probably dirty bombs, as even the US idiocracy wouldn't hand Zelenski and his neo-nazi lunatics real nuclear weapons.

Now that is very interesting!! Thanks for sharing this. Can you please share where and when Zelenski said this?Thanks

Posted by: Roadblock | Dec 4 2022 18:33 utc | 51

@51 - Munich conference February 19th, I think.

Posted by: Paul Spencer | Dec 4 2022 18:40 utc | 52

Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 17:51 utc | 36

So how pray tell is Russia supposed to get its voice heard in the Empire ?

I would suggest any effort by Russia to get its point across has been and will continue to be pointless.

I think you are trying to rationalize Russian impotence in this specific field by dismissing its importance.

---

Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 18:11 utc | 46

I have previously mentioned that quote by the famous German with very small testicles.

It might be well known by some of the regular barflies but the frequency that the "Russia sucks at propaganda" bs hits these threads suggests most readers do not.

Not being aware of propaganda makes one susceptible to it. Important to keep the reminding everyone of that quote.

The constant need to remind everyone may perhaps serve as a clue that not everybody is as perspicacious as you when it comes to propaganda.

I'm pretty sure I could walk out the door and walk for hours without running into anyone who has, as you point out in | Dec 4 2022 17:42 utc | 31, "learned to recognize and become immune to it".

---

Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 17:42 utc | 31

...
Russia on the other hand does not have to spend a cent on propaganda to convince its citizens that the Empire is an existential threat....
It should, however, pick up its game and start working on countering the Empire's efforts, and success, on Western citizenry. That's where the threat lies.

Posted by: robin | Dec 4 2022 18:53 utc | 53

Posted by: ian | Dec 4 2022 17:01 utc | 17

@julianmacfarlane "An Ukrainian Bundy."

For a moment, I thought you were referring to Al Bundy, of the 90's sitcom "Married With Children"

And, just for a moment there, the world made sense.

Posted by: Sarlat La Canède | Dec 4 2022 18:56 utc | 54

🇷🇺🇺🇦 The lack of equipment was added to the losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in Bakhmut: the main thing

Due to the temperature drop in the Bakhmut district, the problem with spare parts and rubber for foreign equipment has worsened for the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which the Military Chronicle reported earlier. During the day, impassable mud is replaced by severe frosts, which makes it difficult to use wheeled armored vehicles MaxxPro, Bushmaster, Sisu and Kirpi.

For the delivery of ammunition, medicines and food to the garrison of the city, the Ground Forces of Ukraine use Soviet armored personnel carriers MT-LB, removed from storage in the Dnepropetrovsk and Kharkov regions.

The advanced units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are forced to get to the line of clashes in civilian vehicles, which is why both regular formations and territorial defense brigades suffer heavy losses.

From November 30 to December 4, the shortage of armored vehicles caused high losses in the 109th and 241st Territorial Defense Brigades in the southeast in the area of ​​Opytny, the Kastus Kalinouski Regiment of Belarusian Nationalists, and the 71st Jaeger Brigade. The situation in the Azov National Battalion (the organization was recognized as a terrorist organization) is especially difficult: among others, the deputy commander of the company, Anton Radko, was seriously wounded. When trying to get out of the shelling on the southeastern outskirts of Bakhmut, five Georgian mercenaries from the "Foreign Legion" of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were killed.

The highest percentage of losses in these units was recorded as a result of the use of Kornet and Konkurs ATGMs by Wagner PMC units, as well as T-80BV tanks supported by D-20 and Giacint-B guns.


https://t.me/intelslava/42305

Posted by: Down South | Dec 4 2022 18:57 utc | 55

Russian troops continue their successful attack on Artemovsk. During the day, our fighters destroyed more than 50 militants and six armored vehicles. There were reports, not yet confirmed, that the Nazis began to withdraw their main forces from the center to the northern outskirts of the city.

Foreign mercenaries operating as part of the Artyomovsk group of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are also suffering losses. Thus, Georgian TG channels report the death of six Georgians: Avto Rurua, Romeo Pichkhaya, Romeo Kvaratskhelia, Badri Markelia, Merab Aladashvili, Jaba Khoperia. Considering that a whole unit of these militants is surrounded by our troops, we can expect that the number of liquidated mercenaries is somewhat higher.

Meanwhile, Ukrainian sources report that as a result of an arrival at the SKMZ workshops in Kramatorsk, a fuel and lubricants warehouse was destroyed, which also serves the Artemovskoye direction, as well as workshops where a partial repair of equipment took place, which will also aggravate the position of the group. In Kyiv, Bakhmut (Artemovsk) was officially recognized as the most difficult direction.

Apparently, despite the fact that Zelensky demands to keep Bakhmut at all costs, on Bankovaya they understand that the fate of the city has already been decided. Against this background, a number of sources report that the Ze-team is trying to transfer to this doomed direction the most problematic formations for them, over which it does not have one hundred percent control - "the Georgian legion is among them."

But the Ze-office is well aware that the release of Bakhmut will largely nullify the achievements of Bandera in the Kharkiv and Kherson directions. And therefore, the Nazi regime hopes to somehow level this defeat and try to end the year with a “winning case”. Ukrainian sources report that Zaluzhny is required to take Kremennaya by the end of the year, and Svatovo in the first months of 2023.

However, the Armed Forces of Ukraine have a problem with the resources to achieve these goals, in particular, the reinforcements that arrived in November, trained in Britain, Poland, and other NATO countries, have already been partially used up in fruitless attacks on the fortified positions of our troops, including in the Krasno-Limansky direction . The energy crisis is also becoming a significant problem, paralyzing logistics and the work of repair shops.

At the same time, the "accumulative effect" of strikes begins to work in the energy system. Due to unbalance of power grids, transformers burn every day. A meeting at the Ze-office was even devoted to this problem, but so far they have not found a way out of the catastrophic situation.


https://t.me/Slavyangrad/23527

Posted by: Down South | Dec 4 2022 19:00 utc | 56

robin | Dec 4 2022 18:53 utc | 53

Please tell me how on Earth the Russians could get their message out ? The EU has censored everything even to the point of prosecuting independent journalists and their families.

Oh and I am sure US msm is going to give Russia equal time in delivering its message.

What you wish for is impossible.

Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 19:02 utc | 57

❗️ The AFU allegedly shot down our Ka-52 helicopter.

A video of the Russian alligator being hit was posted online by Ukrosmi.

According to their statement, it happened today in the eastern direction.

We are awaiting confirmation from our side.


https://t.me/Slavyangrad/23539

Posted by: Down South | Dec 4 2022 19:03 utc | 58

@31 "The Empire has to work really hard to establish, in the minds of its people, a sense of mortal dread of Russia."

They work hard to reinforce a primeval fear of bad things coming out of the East. Europeans have had bad experiences with Mongols for instance and it doesn't take much to equate Stalin with Genghiz Khan in people's minds. There are some Nazi apologists who will say Hitler was defending Europe from Red Russia hordes.

Posted by: dh | Dec 4 2022 19:04 utc | 59

On the subject of the peculiarities of the national hunt for enemy SAMs.

We suggest watching this excerpt of an interview with a pilot of a Su-35S fighter jet. During a combat flight, he detected a radio-emitting target, before launching at which the pilot had to first report to the command post and coordinate his actions, wait for permission and only then act. This problem is systemic.

The enemy, on the other hand, operates in ambush mode, turning on its radars for a short period required to detect a Russian aircraft or to raise a target for launch, and then either operating immediately or switching off and leaving the position. Every second, the Russian pilot's delay in coordinating their actions deprives them of a chance to hit the enemy's SAMs and puts them under attack.

Such coordination would only make sense during a constantly and dynamically changing front line, as in the early days, to exclude friendly fire. Still, in the case of long-established positions, it is criminal and ineffective to deprive pilots of autonomy in decision-making.


https://t.me/Slavyangrad/23541

Posted by: Down South | Dec 4 2022 19:05 utc | 60

@ Lex | Dec 4 2022 17:52 utc | 37

thanks lex.. i relate to what you have to say here too.. it is all speculative on our parts.. so much of what we get to read is political theatre, and not a whole lot of actual facts.. the media is like peyton place - one big soap opera.. and that seems to be how many people like it too, but still i blame the western msm for shirking the task of actual reporting of news... we have musk, new owner of twitter revealing how censorship was happening at twitter... fact is censorship is very alive and well in the usa.. either the folks in a position to do something about this, are going to do something, or they will be shut down like all other areas that would reveal the true underbelly of the usa political system...

as a betting man, i think it will continue to be shut down, even though it is harder and harder to put lipstick on this american and truly western media phenom.. i still maintain the intel agencies need to be torn down, instead of what we have here, where they are calling all the shots.. it can get worse before it gets better, but the fact musk did what he did - bought twitter and revealed some of the censorship - is a start.. interesting how the media goes on the attack over the messenger instead of actually doing its job.. i guess they get paid to be an attack dog on anyone who wants to reveal how out of whack the reality is with the american idealism.. but they must remain the idealists they are and chant freedom and democracy for everywhere else on the planet 24-7, when they don't have any of it at home!

Posted by: james | Dec 4 2022 19:07 utc | 61

re: Posted by: Paul Spencer | Dec 4 2022 18:40 utc | 52

You are correct, it was Feb 19, 2022 when Zelensky told the world that "Ukraine will have every right to believe that the Budapest Memorandum is not working and all the package decisions of 1994 are in doubt.”

I wrote about this for Consortium News, see Ukraine and Nukes.

Posted by: Steven Starr | Dec 4 2022 19:11 utc | 62

robin | Dec 4 2022 18:53 utc | 53

I'm pretty sure I could walk out the door and walk for hours without running into anyone who has, as you point out in | Dec 4 2022 17:42 utc | 31, "learned to recognize and become immune to it".

Indeed. Every reason to keep reminding the people.

We are heading to war.The war drums are beating louder...thats what you are hearing from the Empire. If Russia and China start as well in a few years time you, me and everyone here will either be dead or struggling to stay alive.

The less that Russia beats those drums the better off we all are.


Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 19:14 utc | 63

I'm no genius and know absolutely nothing about military planning. Surely even the layman can see Ukraine is very exposed from an attack in the North.

In world war 2 the Germans would have done it already and cut Ukraine in two from the North. Isolating the main Ukrainian forces in the East that now have to be reinforced on a daily basis.

Maybe, this is what all the latest media chatter is with Belarus and the Russian visit. To check when they are ready for this final push from the North to finish the war.

What does everybody else think ?

100 thousand Russian advance from the North down to the South should do it.

I also think It would be very sad indeed if after all is said done all Russia gains from the war are towns and cities that are complete and utter ruins in the East. Whilst Western Ukrainian towns and cities remain standing and untouched.

I actually think this is Zelensky red line before he surrenders. He is more than happy to see the East of Ukraine in ruins but as soon as Western Ukraine is under threat of being destroyed he will surrender. That will also suit the Nationalists who live in the West of Ukraine.

It's a crime that Donesk gets bombed every day with civilians targeted on purpose and the Western cities remain unscathed. In WW2 both Livov and Kiev would have been flattened within a week of the war starting.

If you live in Western Ukraine and your heating doesn't work is the only sign you have that a war is going on. Compare that experience with those Ukrainians that live in the East who suffer daily and live amoung ruins.

Posted by: Orwellian Language | Dec 4 2022 19:14 utc | 64

It should, however, pick up its game and start working on countering the Empire's efforts, and success, on Western citizenry. That's where the threat lies.

Posted by: robin | Dec 4 2022 18:53 utc | 53

---

I do not think that will be necessary. If Xi Jinping's visit to Riyadh delivers what is expected, Washington will be finished once and for all.

Beijing has also been lobbying for use of its yuan currency in trade instead of the U.S. dollar. Riyadh had previously threatened to ditch some dollar oil trades to confront possible U.S. legislation exposing OPEC members to antitrust lawsuits.

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/saudi-prince-seeks-mideast-leadership-independence-with-xis-visit-2022-12-04/

Note: The effectiveness of propaganda is always inversely proportional to the amount of sawdust in bread.

:)

Posted by: Nobody | Dec 4 2022 19:22 utc | 65

Orwellian Language | Dec 4 2022 19:14 utc | 64

In War people die and infrastructure destroyed. Thats what armies do, kill and destroy.

Shelling civillian targets is a poor military strategy especially by an army that is running out of men, weapons and ammuntion. A few civilians killed or injured and tossing missiles randomly into cities is not going to win a war.

Its been 8 years of this for the people of the donbass. Only 9 months for Ukrainians. War is hell.

Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 19:25 utc | 66

Does anybody here know where to find a succinct account of what has happened in the Ukraine beginning with the 2014 coup up to the present and including the Donbas provocations? By the way, I've come to interpret the Ukraine situation as the sequel to the documentary movie "Who Killed the Electric Car".

Posted by: Mesoscale | Dec 4 2022 19:25 utc | 67

Americans could not accept losses in Vietnam (about 50000 in 10 years).
They looked for peace.

But now, Ukrainians are accepting, without any discontent > 100000 dead during the period shorter them 1 year.

How is that possible?

Posted by: margo | Dec 4 2022 19:28 utc | 68

How anybody could view a Russian victory as owning bricks lying in fields that used to be towns in Eastern Ukraine. While Western Ukrainian Towns and cities remain standing and untouched is difficult to take.

I fail to see how that would be considered a Russian victory.


I'd be more comfortable with the Russians taking everything up to the river and along the coast then bombing Western Ukraine back to the stone age. Flatten everything in Western Ukraine and not allow Zelensky to save Western Ukraine leaving it untouched. Then let's see if Poland wants Livov when it no longer exists on a map.

Posted by: Orwellian Language | Dec 4 2022 19:30 utc | 69

Don Bacon (multiple posts):

Lavrov compared to the Western foreign ministers is a man among boys/girls--a giant of foreign policy.

Who cares if you don't hear him pn Western TV? He's being heard loud and clear in Russia, China, Asia, Africa, and elsewhere. The fewer Westerners that know the truth about what's happening in Ukraine will only prolong the agony of NATO and the West and destroy it further. Russia would love for this conflict to conclude with the last anti-Russian Ukrainian dead on the poppy fields and the last NATO tank destroyed and the last drop of gas and oil used up by Europe!

Posted by: FHTEX | Dec 4 2022 19:36 utc | 70

@67 Mesoscale - Frontline Ukraine by Richard Sakwa is a book I found to be quite good about the situation in Ukraine.


Frontline Ukraine

Posted by: lex talionis | Dec 4 2022 19:42 utc | 71

Now that is very interesting!! Thanks for sharing this. Can you please share where and when Zelenski said this?Thanks

Posted by: Roadblock | Dec 4 2022 18:33 utc

In the time it took you to ask me to provide links, you could have searched it yourself. You may well find other relevant information beyond what I alluded to.


For this, I would suggest including 2021 in some of the parameters you choose, as Zelenski is on record "reconsidering" the fact Ukraine, as part of the Budapest agreement had given up their standard, former USSR nuclear weapons, and wanted to be reinstated as a nuclear power. Even the Bidens and their moronic handlers weren't biting on that nonsense. The noise about using dirty bombs came after the SMO began.

Seriously, don't take my word or anyone else's. Verify separate sources for any item you find "interesting". That way you will learn which voices here are the most reliable and consistent in their positions.

A troll-trick is to include some "truth" in the propaganda, then often attributing fake info to sources than never said what is presented.

At MoA, the trolls are here to create confusion and jam the board with useless babble. The signal-to-noise ratio has gone up considerably since Twitter is no longer a safe-haven for trolls.

Posted by: Old canadian | Dec 4 2022 19:47 utc | 72

Dima says that Ukrainians manged to stop Russian army in the most part of the front.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL5YiOb9lhk

Posted by: margo | Dec 4 2022 19:54 utc | 73

"But now, Ukrainians are accepting, without any discontent > 100000 dead during the period shorter them 1 year."

"How is that possible ?"

Because Western Ukraine remains untouched they have probably been out in Coffee shops today catching up.and doing a bit of Christmas shopping and then going for a few drinks with friends. A normal weekend afternoon.

Western Ukrainian 's don't even think a war is on until they go home and try and put the heating on. The war seems to them to be in a completely different country.

Then ask the people in Donesk how their afternoon went.

Posted by: Orwellian Language | Dec 4 2022 20:00 utc | 74

Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 19:02 utc | 57

Please tell me how on Earth the Russians could get their message out ? The EU has censored everything even to the point of prosecuting independent journalists and their families.

Oh and I am sure US msm is going to give Russia equal time in delivering its message.

What you wish for is impossible.


I would think the first step would be to play the game more seriously.

An example which comes to mind is the interview Lavrov gave to a western television a few months ago. The reporter pressed the Russian foreign minister to justify the apparent contradiction behind Russia's claim to denazify a country who's leader was, in fact, Jewish.

Now here was a golden opportunity to score some easy points. Evidence tying Ukrainian politicians and servicemen to far-right and Nazi movements abound in all spheres of the media. And this is just the open source stuff, the photos, the tattoos, the chants, etc. Surely there's a whole lot more information neatly filed somewhere. Now, the thing about Nazis, is that that the negative connotation of the brand is perfectly hardwired into Western minds. Your work is all cut up Sergei. Just dish it out and watch the people blink at the news.

And if the interviewer insists with his (or her) original point, let him make the connection that being Jewish is not mutually exclusive with presiding over a country where the extreme right plays a leading role.

While he had the ball, Lavrov could have then pressed on to other embarrassing Western relationships. The Al Qaeda dossier alone could open so many doors. It reads like the opening of the old testament. CIA begat Mujahadin begat Al Qaeda begat ISIS... Here too the brand effect is enough to knock the teeth out much of the dominant narrative, and again, the open source material is incredibly damning on its own. How about revealing some classified bits about US connivance with groups universally recognized as terrorist?

So what did Lavrov do? Well, he didn't grab that high paying, low hanging fruit, instead he went for that impossible, Goodwin shot from half court.

'Oh yeah, well Hitler had Jewish blood too. So there'

Whish. Air ball. Better luck next time Mr minister.

Posted by: robin | Dec 4 2022 20:04 utc | 75

@ james | Dec 4 2022 19:59 utc | 75 who seems to have a troll perversion

Why are you asking for trolls? It does not speak well of you, IMO

Are you going to ask for vk back next or more from agnotology pusher Scorpion?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 4 2022 20:05 utc | 76

Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 16:33 utc | 12
>…“Russia is burdened with a weak foreign minister who has never made the news, never been quoted by any news source.”
Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 16:57 utc | 16
>”Show me”
dh | Dec 4 2022 17:10 utc | 21
>…”They know anything they say, anything, gets twisted and used against them.”
Like this:?

US poses existential threat to Russia, says Putin’s leading diplomat
Putin’s foreign minister made several anti-Western claims in a rambling press conference
Liam James3 days ago
Vladimir Putin’s top diplomat claimed the US posed an existential threat to Russia through its support for Ukraine.
Sergei Lavrov, the Kremlin’s foreign minister who has a reputation for wild statements, used a press conference on Thursday to condemn Washington and Nato, while defending Russia’s bombing of Ukraine’s civil infrastructure.
He said the Kremlin’s assault on the Ukrainian power grid was aimed at cutting off the country’s supply of western arms, countering the view held by Kyiv and allies that knocking out heat and electricity for ordinary citizens was an attempt to break the national spirit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/world/russia-lavrov-us-ukraine-nato-b2237900.html

Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 4 2022 20:20 utc | 77

@ psychohistorian | Dec 4 2022 20:05 utc | 77

nah... i am just making an observation and trying to be funny.. there is room for a little fun on such a dark thread as this.. b is into deleting posts.. its a new development..

Posted by: james | Dec 4 2022 20:23 utc | 78

robin | Dec 4 2022 20:04 utc | 76

6 paragraphs to say nothing.

Even if Lavrov would have delivered a zinger that delivers enough gravitas to satisfy you no one would see it.

You obviously don't see a lot of Lavrov in action. This is not by accident.

Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 20:28 utc | 79

Mesoscale | Dec 4 2022 19:25 utc | 67
>…”Does anybody here know where to find a succinct account of what has happened in the Ukraine beginning with the 2014 coup up to the present and including the Donbas provocations?”
I haven’t read them, as I was online and followed events contemporaneously.
Auslander was once a regular poster at The Saker blog.
He lives in Crimea and was involved in the civilian rescue of a busload(s) of women and children being hunted (for extermination) by one of the nazi coalitions…
Ausländer has written 3 books covering exactly what you ask.
His website: http://rhauslander.com

Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 4 2022 20:30 utc | 80

james | Dec 4 2022 20:23 utc | 79
>…”b is into deleting posts.. its a new development..”
Tis a curation devoutly wished…

Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 4 2022 20:36 utc | 81

I recently perused Colonel McGregor's prediction that Russia will attack Western Ukraine, somewhere East of Kiev, from Belorussia. The Colonel believes that this is Ukraine's "center of gravity." I believe that he is absolutely correct. Another factor to consider is that Ukraine has been forcibly conscripting ethnic Russians from Eastern and Southern Ukraine and using them as cannon fodder in the Donbass. This is genocidal. If Russia attacks Western Ukraine from the North, it will be ethnic Ukrainians who will be getting killed for a change. A lot of Ukrainians will be making a run for the border. This will motivate Kiev to modify its behavior if the government actually remains in Kiev. Once Russia links up with Tranisteria, the war will be over.

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Dec 4 2022 20:39 utc | 82

Typo.

The attack corridor will be West of Kiev. My bad.

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Dec 4 2022 20:40 utc | 83

Old Canadian and any other Musk fan.

Twitter is not free until Scott Ritter gets his account back.

The whole fracas about Twitter and the bloody laptop is a publicity stunt done by the master showman and flim flam man Musk.

For the Truth on how reprehensible this human is check out the common sense skeptic. The team there have documented every lie he made in his career as a showman.

Apologies if I erroneously described as a Muskrat but your statement does point in that direction.


Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 20:50 utc | 84

Melaleuca | Dec 4 2022 20:36 utc | 82

:-)

Posted by: Klaatu | Dec 4 2022 20:57 utc | 85

Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 4 2022 20:30 utc | 81

Have you heard from or about Auslander. I have read about his personal tragedy and it makes me cry. I hope he is OK.

Posted by: watcher | Dec 4 2022 21:00 utc | 86

Good to see that Indonesian media is picking up the EU bull$hit and explaining it to its clients.

"19,389 views Dec 2, 2022
TRIBUN-TIMUR.COM - European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said that Russia's invasion of Ukraine brought untold death, destruction and suffering, and it is estimated that "more than 20,000 Ukrainian civilians and 100,000 soldiers have died in Ukraine to date." " Surprisingly, the data was immediately deleted or censored. This was conveyed in his speech for the planned confiscation of frozen Russian assets and the establishment of a special court to punish Russia for the crime of aggression against Ukraine on November 30, 2022 yesterday. Later, however, the text of von der Leyen's statement on the European Commission's website was edited and published without data on casualties – neither among civilians nor in the military. (*) Editor: A. Syahrul Khair Narrator: Ririn"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ipOfY5PmYw

Posted by: Tom_12 | Dec 4 2022 21:04 utc | 87

Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 18:00 utc | 42
>…”The International Religious Freedom Act of 1998 was passed to promote religious freedom as a foreign policy of the United States,……”

US targets Russia mercenary group over religious freedom Dec3
The Biden administration has put a well-known Russian paramilitary organization on a list of religious freedom violators alongside a number of notorious terrorist organizations

The Biden administration on Friday placed a well-known Russian paramilitary organization on a list of religious freedom violators alongside a number of notorious terrorist organizations.
Secretary of State Antony Blinken announced he had designated the Wagner Group as an “entity of particular concern" for its activities in the Central African Republic.
Also on the list are Afghanistan’s Taliban, Nigeria’s Boko Haram, Somalia’s al-Shabab and two factions of the Islamic State group.
“Our announcement of these designations is in keeping with our values and interests to protect national security and to advance human rights around the globe,” Blinken said.
“Countries that effectively safeguard this and other human rights are more peaceful, stable, prosperous and more reliable partners of the United States than those that do not.”
The Wagner Group is run by a confidant of Russian President Vladimir Putin, Yevgeny Prigozhin, and its mercenaries are accused by Western countries and UN experts of numerous human rights abuses throughout Africa, including in the Central African Republic, Libya and Mali.

Friday's designation does not immediately carry U.S. sanctions but opens up those targeted to potential penalties for violations of religious freedom.
The Wagner Group and the other “entities of particular concern” are already subject to an array of U.S. sanctions.
In addition to his designation of the Wagner Group and the others, Blinken identified China, Cuba, Eritrea, Iran, Myanmar, Nicaragua, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan as “countries of particular concern" for religious freedom violations.
[That looks like a list of Russian “allies”??]

“All of those countries, which Blinken said have “engaged in or tolerated particularly severe violations of religious freedom,” have been on the list previously.
Blinken also put Algeria, the Central African Republic, Comoros and Vietnam on a “special watch list” for religious freedom violations, meaning they could eventually be hit by U.S. sanctions unless their records in the area improve.
[yep. All the bad guys just happen to have relations with Russia….. ]

Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 4 2022 21:07 utc | 88

Woke American @28

I see your points. What I don't see, are Russia's SMO end game options.
In February 24th, UK and US were so delighted of having the bear trapped. So they won't let go of it in the foreseeable future. They are just hell bent on the destruction of Russia.
With all talks being denied, Putin has no option other than winning on the battlefield. But how is "victory" defined, short of conquering all of Ukraine, while Zelensky stubbornly keeps up saying his NO to negotiations?
By no means can Putin absorb the whole of Ukraine, given its hostile population in the western part. The Brits, who are involved in all strategic decisions and basically running the Ukrainiaan show on the battlefield, will make it as hard on him as they can to even get hold of the DPR territory, let alone the Cherson and Zaporizhzha oblasts. They are currently keeping the plug on the bottle by stepping up the defenses of Bakhmut, while all of the North to South front is heavily defended.

Posted by: grunzt | Dec 4 2022 21:14 utc | 89

Unfortunately, Russia is burdened with a weak foreign minister who has never made the news, never been quoted by any news source. Meanwhile we have the US FM showing up everywhere spouting his "unprovoked invasion" baloney without any comeback.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 4 2022 16:33 utc | 12

Unfortunately, Mr. Bacon you, and I are not reading the same sources, because I get translations of Foreign Minister Sergey Viktorovich Lavrov speeches from all around the world. It is true that in the west Lavrov's speeches get short shrift, but that is by design isn't it.

Posted by: Ed | Dec 4 2022 21:14 utc | 90

watcher | Dec 4 2022 21:00 utc | 87
Ausländer News?
No. Lost interest in the Saker blog about the start of the SMO.
Since Ausländer has been personally involved in the Crimea struggle since 2014… I’d say it’s on topic… what news?

Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 4 2022 21:14 utc | 91

Like you I lost interest in Saker from the time of the SMO and a little before.

It was something I read here about Auslander. I think two of his children were killed in the Donbass. He was a good poster and very much seemed a family man.

Posted by: watcher | Dec 4 2022 21:20 utc | 92

Posted by: margo | Dec 4 2022 19:28 utc | 68

But now, Ukrainians are accepting, without any discontent >100000 dead ... How is that possible?

Sheep, when led to the slaughter, accept their fate willingly.

It is only when the last sheep is about to lose its head that we hear:

"Baaaaahhh!"


Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 4 2022 21:24 utc | 93

watcher | Dec 4 2022 21:20 utc | 93
He often referred to his dogs as his “children”.
So I wasn’t sure what he meant.
Ok.,let’s drop it.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 4 2022 21:24 utc | 94

Ausländer has written 3 books covering exactly what you ask.
His website: http://rhauslander.com

Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 4 2022 20:30 utc | 81

Thank you, Melaleuca; that is crucial information. I was working in Cartagena Columbia SA. at the time of the Maidan coup in Kiev, and for several more months after that. It may seem strange, but the media in Columbia was far franker and more honest than the Western MSM at that time. Today, many of the news stories that I saw then, even on sites like CNN, are almost impossible to find now.

Posted by: Ed | Dec 4 2022 21:27 utc | 95

Posted by: Ed | Dec 4 2022 21:14 utc | 91

Same here in Asia and the global South.

Lavrov is everywhere. Blinken slips from the mind like the soulless, featureless ghost he is.

Lavrov's words stick.

Nobody remembers a thing blinken has ever said.

But of course, only the opinions of the "Golden Billion" matter ...?

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 4 2022 21:29 utc | 96

i saw something recently...telegram video ...of russian tanks painted white for winter warfare....the video ran for a minute passing tanks and stretched off into the distance......indicating the possible 1000 tanks.

Does anyone have any idea where they are located.
Perhaps this might indicate the source of General Winters invasion.

the video was about two days ago.

Posted by: harryash | Dec 4 2022 21:35 utc | 97

Posted by: grunzt | Dec 4 2022 21:14 utc | 90

“By no means can Putin absorb the whole of Ukraine, given its hostile population in the western part.”

Absolutely true…the question then remains …do you leave a festering sore/rump of Ukraine for
An organized resurgence that can be externally supported (afghanistan comes to mind)…to harass
And by slow attrition weaken and constantly distract Russia.
The empire would love exactly that scenario.

Posted by: harryash | Dec 4 2022 21:47 utc | 98

This twitter account has a nice Unreality shaping videos.
I bet a lot of them with snow are not even from this year.
I guess it's for the front line guys to know how things are going overall.

"Slava 404-ina"

https://twitter.com/UkraineRussia2

Posted by: Tom_12 | Dec 4 2022 21:51 utc | 99

So what did Lavrov do? Well, he didn't grab that high paying, low hanging fruit, instead he went for that impossible, Goodwin shot from half court.
'Oh yeah, well Hitler had Jewish blood too. So there'
Whish. Air ball. Better luck next time Mr minister.
Posted by: robin | Dec 4 2022 20:04 utc | 76

So, that's it? That is your big Lavrov knock down? Talking about shooting from half court; give me a break. The world is bigger than just the western MSM. The EU, the US, and the five eyes, still do not constitute the majority of the world's population.

Posted by: Ed | Dec 4 2022 21:54 utc | 100

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