Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 03, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-215

Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Posted by b on December 3, 2022 at 15:44 UTC | Permalink

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Posted by: Robert | Dec 3 2022 19:00 utc | 27
«China controls the banksters; the parasitic Rentier extraction classes control the western world. The middle classes and the poor are better off than their equivalents in the western world especially the US. A much higher percentage of Chinese own their homes»

That last point is a very bad idea, because it also means that virtually all state and communist party officials are property owners, and many with a whole list of properties (including their families). When that happens, as in places like UK, China-Taiwan, Australia, Korea-sud, etc., the whole ruling class starts to care only about booming property prices and fast rising rents, as that is far more profitable and takes a lot less effort than working or running a business.

Note: most of the properties owned by most ordinary chinese are near worthless, only those in growing cities matters.

So the destiny of China-mainland is “parasitic Rentier extraction classes control”, just like UK, China-Taiwan, Australia, Korea-south.

Also property owners, especially if older or retired, will almost inevitably push far right Reagan/Thatcher style politics, including state and communist party officials.

The question is whether this will mean a convergence of interests with the rentier-controller "the west" or a rivalry of interests. Much of the long term future of Ukraine and the Russian Federation depends on that.

Posted by: Blissex | Dec 4 2022 10:48 utc | 201

@ by: Blissex | Dec 4 2022 10:48 utc | 201

🤣` ...

Posted by: Laurence | Dec 4 2022 10:53 utc | 202

Posted by: Passerby | Dec 4 2022 9:41 utc | 194

The moment occupying Europe costs the US more than it earns, is the moment the US leaves.

In my opinion, occupation goes well beyond the garrisoning of troops in Europe. The US could vacate its bases in Germany and Italy and still direct economic and foreign policies of the continent. As the self defeating actions against Russia suggest, Europe is far from sovereign. How this control operates is another discussion altogether.

If we're comparing costs with earnings, we should also discuss the extent of the earnings. The difficulty here is that there is more than immediate advantages, such as increase in US LNG sales.

There may be long term strategies involved such as reinforcing dependent relationships and forcing fence sitters to fall in line. There could also be an intent to downsize the appetite of a major consumer in a world of finite resources. In a similar vein, I see a strategy of maintaining relative dominance by mitigating the emergence of competition. The most obvious threat would be a well integrated continental bloc.

Posted by: robin | Dec 4 2022 10:53 utc | 203

Posted by: margo | Dec 4 2022 10:35 utc | 198

Russia has stopped destruction of Ukro energy infrastructure.

It constantly amazes me how "Russia has stopped doing X" for a couple of days and all of a sudden:

"Russia has stopped doing X period"

It's like we're living in a world with the attention span of a ferret on cocaine.

Effective destruction has a cadence.

A rhythm.

The spaces between destruction are more terrifying than the destruction itself when it comes.

The Russians understand this very Zen principal of "negative space".

The Void is as terrifying as the violence it enfolds.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Dec 4 2022 10:57 utc | 204

Posted by: Nexus | Dec 4 2022 2:46 utc | 114

You are welcome, and your stupidity is excused.

You are aware b nukes such comments as yours on a regular basis? Just to keep the flies out.

Posted by: Anne B | Dec 4 2022 10:58 utc | 205

Still leaves the puzzle mentioned above. What happens to the Euros that are held in Russia once they've been exchanged for roubles? How are they spent?
Posted by: English Outsider | Dec 4 2022 2:30 utc | 110

Buying up black market western weapons that have found their way out of Ukraine?

Posted by: Gt Stroller | Dec 4 2022 11:17 utc | 206

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Dec 4 2022 8:47 utc | 188

The wreckless and costly ukie attacks of the past 3 months are coming back to bite them in the ass, big time. Also that, and the Russian drones taking out those pieces one by one over a long term takes a toll.

It is noticeable much of their artillery tubes (both tubes and rockets) are destroyed and Himars are not meant nor have capacity to be general "front line artillery". The Russians are getting target and precision practice in bombarding the trenches on the Bakhmut and surrounding front lines with little way of countering.

Posted by: unimperator | Dec 4 2022 11:25 utc | 207

Posted by: Steven Starr | Dec 4 2022 6:29 utc | 155

“I have difficulty interpreting your statements/logic, the language is confusing and your logic appear rather tortured to me. I think your last sentence was an insult, but since I am not sure of that, I withhold judgement.”

No Steven absolutely not…
I tend to be sarcastic when serious heavy nuclear missiles are discussed as if they are a threat.
Anyone that launches that sort of attack in my view is obviously not sane…but as the launch procedure
Is probably complex I don’t see how it can be triggered without someone saying…are you totally mad.
There are some very detailed posts here that are a credit to the authors….sometimes heavy in morbidity
So perhaps a little light humor or sarcasm is needed.
Perhaps I,m wrong there and its not appreciated.
As to the french…history has recently demonstrated that they are unreliable…imv.

Posted by: harryash | Dec 4 2022 11:37 utc | 208

«Actually the best capitalists are the ones who've read and understand Marx.»

Indeed, most capitalists are marxist to a fault: they believe that they can make profits only if they exploit workers and keep a large reserve army of the unemployed (for example, millions of penniless ukrainian refugees).

But actually that was already written in very lucid form by Bernard de Mandeville in “Essay on charity" (1724):

“The Plenty and Cheapness of Provisions depends in a great measure on the Price and Value that is set upon this Labour, and consequently the Welfare of all Societies, even before they are tainted with Foreign Luxury, requires that it should be perform’d by such of their Members as in the first Place are sturdy and robust and never used to Ease or Idleness, and in the second, soon contented as to the necessaries of Life; [...] If such People there must be, as no great Nation can be happy without vast Numbers of them, would not a Wise Legislature cultivate the Breed of them with all imaginable Care, and provide against their Scarcity as he would prevent the Scarcity of Provision it self? [...] From what has been said, it is manifest, that, in a free nation, where slaves are not allowed of, the surest wealth consists in a multitude of laborious poor”

«The euro represents a highly developed skilled economic zone of 500 million people, it's not going to turn into Weimar deutschmarks, unless Eurolandia breaks up (which is different from NATO breaking up). The dollar won't turn to confetti either as it also represents a huge population with resources and advanced skills.»

It is refreshing to see a realistic attitude about this. A currency (whether banknotes or bonds) is "backed" by two things: the tax capacity of the issuing government, and the ability to buy stuff with that currency. Post WW2 the dollar was highly valued because the major source of raw materials and manufactured goods was the USA, for example. The dollar and euro still give access to the many USA and EU goods and services, and can be used to buy many valuable USA and EU assets. Same obviously nowadays for the rouble, and soon for the renmibi.
The ukraianian hrivnia (or the cambodian riel) not so much...

Posted by: Blissex | Dec 4 2022 11:39 utc | 209

After Aleppo and Mariupol, now Artemovsk, the pace of the small (though??) Stalingrad of the US proxies is accelerating with devastating effects on the reputation of the US army. At the same time 100 billion helicopter money monthly accelerate the fall of DC the mad.

The Russians will move forward to secure the 4 oblasts they have just integrated. They will respond to the delivery of long-range artillery by preparing an advance westward by destroying what remains of the Ukrainian power grid. Millions of refugees will flood into Poland and Germany, which will ask Sweden and Finland to show solidarity. The winter will end like this.

In order not to face another proxy war, in the Sahel or North Africa, for example, the Russians will keep the war going until summer 2024. The situation in the EU and the USA will mature for the US election campaign. What will be the credibility of the candidates who want a military victory over Russia? The mess in the USA will get even bigger. This is where we are. For the Russians it will be the perfect timing for an operation Bagration bis.

Posted by: old man | Dec 4 2022 11:59 utc | 210

EU and USA have officially pledged to "train" Ukrainian troops, at the rate of 50 000 or ~2100 per month over the next two years. This is, even with the most leanest ukro losses less than half replacement rate. If you take an average ratio of 300 losses per day it's 23 % replacement.

Of course one should understand that ukie armed forces is made of 2 components - those kidnapped from the street and given a week or two training in-situ, and those "promising" ones who are sent abroad and counted as part of these EU/USA trained. The former component probably makes up a higher percentage of recruits nowadays, and also are used to "delay" Russians, just as they were last Summer. Even so, 50000, or even 70000 for 24 months won't change anything.

Regarding the training itself, it was said that it was not training to advance against front lines with artillery, but training for partisan war. They won't be getting that kind of war.

Posted by: unimperator | Dec 4 2022 12:15 utc | 211

Comrade simba no.117

Wow. What a show. Handsome, fit man.

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Dec 4 2022 12:22 utc | 212

@ Posted by: John k | Dec 4 2022 5:59 utc | 149

Turkey has its own currency, aside from that your assessment of how the Euros are recycled back is accurate.

Iis not part of the EU - it was like Ukraine promised that great carrot decades ago with zero chance of actually being given it. Because it is a largely Moslem country and us racist European elites didn’t want that.
We just wanted their cheap Labour, agriculture and their position as a buttress to fortress Europe and as a constant stepping stone to the only reason for all the wars of the last few centuries - The conquest of Russia and EurAsia.

That is also why he reason for these wondering about why France. Ali Tula yes so easily in WW2 as did most of Europe. The U.K. Dunkirk pantomime was part of that.
Mostly it was about getting rid of communism and the primes who were on the rise as the Workers were organising and on the rise threatening the old order.

Remember history was written and rewritten by our propagandists and the iron curtain was pulled down as hastily as possible to stop the actual coming together of EU/EurAsia with the vague offer of the Trente Glorious and unions and social welfare.

Well here we are - full circle!

Posted by: DunGroanin | Dec 4 2022 12:40 utc | 213

Pardon the crazy autocorrect spelling going on in my last comment.😝 Hard to spot on the phone whilst strolling.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Dec 4 2022 12:48 utc | 214

Well governments of NATO countries fixing a price-cap on Russian oil isn't also going to fix a line under the price of WTI, Brent and OPEC crude, is it! The madness is never ending. Is this the result of the children who were brought up when they started awarding participation prizes. Perhaps they can offer Zelensky and Ihor Kolomoyskyi a participation prize to give up destroying the lives of so many Ukrainians.

Posted by: ft | Dec 4 2022 12:53 utc | 215

This is very good regarding the price cap, especially his point about Russia's priority isn't revenue, that will take care of itself, the priority is what it has always been building relationships and trust.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Dec 4 2022 12:56 utc | 216

[** “200s” are wounded, as I understand]

Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 4 2022 8:15 utc | 184

200 = dead

Posted by: Lurker from Moscow | Dec 4 2022 13:18 utc | 217

training for partisan war. They won't be getting that kind of war.
Posted by: unimperator | Dec 4 2022 12:15 utc | 211

Who is going to stop nato trained Ukr terrorists when no one even tries to stop them now, during the war? Losing Kherson without a fight already has proven terrorism works very well and I have no reason, so far, to believe Zap. region and the NPP won't be surrendered soon, in the same style.
Using only events from 2022 and the mentality of Russian general staff, not imaginary stories like youtube money begging talking heads, the future for the 4 new regions, Crimea and also Russia and Belarus will be made from decades of terrorism that will make Nordstreams and Crimea bridge look like fun days.

Posted by: rk | Dec 4 2022 13:23 utc | 218

Posted by: fanto | Dec 4 2022 2:28 utc | 109

Fanto - I suppose it must be so. Spend them via third countries.

But it looks a most unstable arrangement - say those third countries end up having less use for Western currencies as well?


Still trying to work out, by the way, why Scholz went along with it all. I still see him as the central figure in this disaster rather than Biden. Neocon's neocon, that's a given. But until February 21st Scholz, and Macron with him, had independent agency. They don't now.

Posted by: TonyL | Dec 4 2022 3:22 utc | 123

The important aspect of this process is those Euros are in a Russian bank, not in a European bank. So it can not be seized by sanction.

I don't know if Western currency held within a Russian bank is sanction proof. In any case the Western currency has to be spent at some stage, else it's just a meaningless book entry.

As Fanto says, it's got to be spent via third parties if it's to be spent at all. And Gt Stroller has indicated another way of spending it.

It'd need a Hudson to work out the various currency flows and to find out by whom and how those Euros finally get exchanged for goods and services from the West. But if less is bought from the West, and if non-Western countries are reluctant to hold Western securities and assets for fear they might be effectively confiscated, it does seem that Russia won't be able to spend the proceeds from oil and gas sales to Europe.

And if they can't spend the proceeds then why bother with "selling" oil and gas to Europe at all? I think "LightYearsFromHome" is indicating that the current arrangements are temporary and will not serve for the long term.

I also think that the Fed officials who were said to be dead against these sanctions had a point. Unless those sanctions had succeeded in crippling the Russian economy soon, they were far more likely to cripple us in Europe.

Posted by: English Outsider | Dec 4 2022 13:31 utc | 219

This morning's top headline on the BBC News website is:

"The fighting in Ukraine has been slowing down and this will likely continue in the coming winter months, US intelligence agencies believe.
However, there has been no evidence of fading resistance on the part of Ukrainian forces, US director of intelligence Avril Haines said"

This seems to me to be a counter-intuitive view of what is likely to happen.
It is in Russia's interest to press home the advantage now that winter and Ukraine's loss of infrastructure leaves Ukraine's military on the back foot.
Just saying ....

Posted by: Engineer-John | Dec 4 2022 13:34 utc | 220

“A few 24 hours ago the Americans stressed to Zelensky that he should negotiate and now Macron is dropping a megaton bomb.
Although the proposal will be rejected by Moscow because it no longer believes in any guarantees from the West, Macron's public proposal nevertheless shows that the West has relented.
In more detail, French President Emmanuel Macron says he is ready to offer "guarantees" to Moscow's "concerns" in order to put an end to the bloody war in Ukraine.
"The West will have to consider how to deal with Russia's need for security guarantees if the Russian president agrees to negotiations to end the war in Ukraine," the French president said on Saturday.
Macron's message to Putin “
Well I didn’t know Macron was the spokesman for NATO…(as that implies)
And then….
“EU and USA have officially pledged to "train" Ukrainian troops, at the rate of 50 000 or ~2100 per month over the next two years.”
(posted above… unimperator | Dec 4 2022 12:15 utc | 211)
Well..imv…that contradicts the Macron statement and indicates that the west still expect Ukraine to exist.
If they wish to negotiate why would they train Ukrainians.
The argument surely has to be…on what terms russia may decide to settle…and .timescale..
Because its obvious that General Winter has arrived..(Ventusky)….the russians appear to be 80% plus in position
And NATO is a basketcase and doesn’t have munitions, manpower or even the means to deliver.
So why should the Russians even consider negotiation.
Nuclear threat?....imv…utter nonsense.
Four months from now and they could possibly be sitting on the Polish border.
And there wont be a Ukraine to even discuss.

Posted by: harryash | Dec 4 2022 13:59 utc | 221

In response to English Outsider@219,

I'd say you're overthinking things. As long as Non-Brand Western Currency (TM) has a value on even the domestic Western market, and provided that Western market continues to trade with outside markets, it can be used as a medium for exchange, which is all it is. Same Western currency is an equally meaningless book entry in any bank account until it is spent on material goods, with the additional bonus of potentially being confiscated or frittered away by whoever is in charge of the book, which is why the Russians now insist on keeping it on their books. The only real option to prevent the Russians spending or keeping Generic Western Currency (TM) is to completely crash the economy in which they circulate. Any situation that actually results in the Russians holding substantial amounts of Western legal tender with absolutely no ability to spend it would come hand in hand with a catastrophic devaluation of that currency across the board. Hence why sanctions are meticulously calibrated until their impact is that of a wet fart and still manage to hurt the economies of the side imposing them.

Posted by: Skiffer | Dec 4 2022 14:01 utc | 222

[137] "The current method of dealing with this is handover to "authorized" tankers on the high seas ..."

I am sure this will happen at some level. But it's harder to do now given all the surveillance (including satellites) and there will be even non-governmental people looking for it as a hobby.

If a couple of these transfers get caught, and the penalties include confiscation of the cargo (when the attempt is made to unload in a port of one of the countries supporting the cap) or even seizure of the "authorized" tanker at that point, the Russian shadow tanker fleet may remain safely at sea, but there will be fewer "authorized" tankers willing to play.

Can oil be "fingerprinted" to determine with a reasonably high probability, it's country of origin?

Posted by: Bill Smith | Dec 4 2022 14:18 utc | 223

Any negotiations proposed from The West means that they want to buy some time to produce more ammunition and regroup.
There can be no lasting peace until Ukraine and The West or Russia are defeated.
This is a total war.

Posted by: margo | Dec 4 2022 14:24 utc | 224

⚡️Russian Defence Ministry report on the progress of the special military operation in Ukraine
(4 November 2022)

Part 1 (read Part 2 (

Russian Federation Armed Forces continue the special military operation.

◽️In Donetsk direction, Russian troops are carrying out successful offensive actions near Artyomovsk (Donetsk People's Republic). More than 50 Ukrainian servicemen and 6 AFU armoured fighting vehicles have been eliminated as a result of the Russian troops' fire and actions in this direction.

◽️In South Donetsk direction, the AFU attempted to break through Pavlovka (Donetsk People's Republic). As a result of active actions by Russian troops, the enemy unit has been forced into the minefield and destroyed by artillery fire.

◽️The attacks by the AFU towards Shevchenko (Donetsk People's Republic) have ended unsuccessfully. The enemy, with considerable losses, has driven back to their initial positions by attack aircraft and artillery fire. The enemy's losses in this direction amounted to up to 40 Ukrainian servicemen killed, 1 infantry fighting vehicle and 3 pickup trucks.

◽️In Kupyansk direction, army air strikes, artillery fire, tanks and heavy firing systems at the AFU's positions near Novosyolovskoye have thwarted an attempt by the enemy to attack towards Kuzyomovka (Lugansk People's Republic). An attempt to attack Russian military positions near Yagodnoye (Kharkov region), has been thwarted as a result of a fire attack on a concentration of AFU manpower and military equipment near Kislovka. More than 60 Ukrainian servicemen, 2 pick-up trucks and 2 motor vehicles have been eliminated.

◽️In Krasniy Liman direction, 2 AFU company tactical groups unsuccessfully tried to attack Russian positions towards Ploshchanka, Chervonopopovka and Zhytlovka (Lugansk People's Republic). As a result of Russian artillery strikes, the attack has been repelled and the enemy has been pushed back to its initial position.

💥The attack by 2 attack groups of the AFU towards Kremennaya (Lugansk People's Republic) has been disrupted by a fire strike near Serebryanskoye lesnichestvo and decisive actions of the Russian troops. In addition, three AFU sabotage and reconnaissance groups have been eliminated near Chervonaya Dibrova (Lugansk People's Republic). The enemy's losses amounted to over 80 Ukrainian servicemen killed and wounded, 1 tank, 1 infantry fighting vehicle and 1 armoured vehicle.

💥Operational-Tactical and Army Aviation, Missile Troops and Artillery have neutralised 69 AFU artillery units in firing positions, manpower and military equipment in 187 areas.

💥A temporary location of a Ukrainian nationalist group has been hit near Dibrova (Donetsk People's Republic). Moreover, 2 U.S.-manufactured AN/TPQ-37 counterbattery warfare radars have been destroyed near Grigorovka and Markovo (Donetsk People's Republic).

💥The AFU artillery weapons depot has been destroyed near Novoalexandrovka (Zaporozhye region). An oil depot near Shevchenkovo (Kharkov region), which was used to supply fuel for military equipment of the AFU in Kupyansk direction, has been destroyed.

#MoD #TopNews #Russia #Ukraine

Posted by: Summary | Dec 4 2022 14:31 utc | 225

Posted by: robin | Dec 4 2022 10:53 utc | 203

The US could vacate its bases in Germany and Italy and still direct economic and foreign policies of the continent. As the self defeating actions against Russia suggest, Europe is far from sovereign. How this control operates is another discussion altogether.

I'm very interested in the exact mechanisms of control of local elites. I don't believe in M. Hudson's guess, that it's just plain bribery. Perhaps it's a mixture of soft measures like scholarships for students of political foundations like Heinrich-Böll-Stiftung and hard ones like personal blackmail, political threats and bribery.

Posted by: Moses | Dec 4 2022 14:50 utc | 226

... OPEC is already talking about further production cuts ...

Posted by: Lex | Dec 4 2022 1:18 utc | 99

I was waiting for / anticipating this very thing! G7 manipulations are a direct threat to OPEC, another well balanced production cut would be just the thing to accompany this ridiculous cap.

Posted by: anon2020 | Dec 4 2022 14:57 utc | 227
Posted by: Down South | Dec 4 2022 6:12 utc | 153

Barflies - this post by South South is worth close reading. Fascinating.

Posted by: Exile | Dec 4 2022 7:32 utc | 173

Counter-insurgency is what we know, counter-insurgency is what they are equipped for, so counter-insurgency is what we are going to teach.

Posted by: Bemildred | Dec 4 2022 15:07 utc | 228

The signing of the Memorandum of Understanding between the Ukrainian Finance Ministry and the BlackRock investment company indicates a de facto sale of Ukraine. Former Ukrainian MP Ilya Kiva said

"In fact, this deal is a direct sale of Ukraine's territory." The population to be charged for is not part of the terms of the sale agreement. Therefore, in the near future, we will witness the continuation of the disposal of Ukrainians, who will be lucky to escape," Kiva declared.

-from the latest Pepe Escobar

Posted by: osi | Dec 4 2022 15:15 utc | 229

Still leaves the puzzle mentioned above. What happens to the Euros that are held in Russia once they've been exchanged for roubles? How are they spent?

Posted by: English Outsider | Dec 4 2022 2:30 utc | 110

You answered the question in your comment EO. The Euros are sold to the market. Where those funds are spent doesn't really matter. What matters is that the Russians can now print money out of thin air to buy BMW's and Rolex watches just like the folks buying their oil in Berlin and Brussels.

Forcing the customers of oil to the buy local currency is just the grease on the skids in the trade. The EU will have to accept Roubles for products and services provided to Russia and the Stans that require real work to be done. That is the important part. Europeans will start the loop in the trade by doing real work. And since the product being bought by Europeans is immediately consumed it is by definition a doomsday scenario for the Euro.

The Russians by doing this are also exporting the inflation back to the source. With each orbit of the arbitrage the value of the Euro gets closer to zero. And five years from now in Omsk, a BMW ends up costing less, and VVP gets another statue as a hero...

Posted by: RiNS | Dec 4 2022 15:17 utc | 230

Posted by: Nexus | Dec 4 2022 0:25 utc | 80

Better than nukes are plausibly deniable actions: a container ship sinking in an inconvenient place, an oil platform having a "blowout", how does a financial center function when important internet backbones into the country are severed?

Recall how NK torpedoed and sunk a South Korean corvette in the middle of an anti-submarine exercise (!) and it took months to figure out why the thing went down.

The perpetrators of the Nordstream sabotage started it all but the idea is available to anyone.

Posted by: bottle | Dec 4 2022 15:32 utc | 231

At the same time, Macron once again reiterated that Ukraine itself must decide when to start negotiations with Russia and under what conditions. He noted that Europe is not involved in the war and

Posted by: Laurence | Dec 4 2022 3:54 utc | 129

Since he is obviously lying about Europe not being involved in the war, he is likely lying about everything else.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Dec 4 2022 15:33 utc | 232

@Norwegian 160

I have to discretely smile about the prospect of banning battery vehicles. The scam that it is begins to backfire.

Why should "battery vehicles" be banned and other less efficient, more expensive, more polluting and less reliable vehicles not be?

Why, given all the above trivially probable benefits, do you see "electric vehicles" as a "scam"? Given the vast subsidies and high, potentially infinite undistributed externalities of legacy hydrocarbon fuels, why do you not consider other forms of transport "a scam"?

Posted by: Hermit | Dec 4 2022 16:00 utc | 233

Arch Bungle | Dec 4 2022 7:21 utc | 167

Agreed. I think his "omission" in that instance was implicit.

Posted by: Doug Hillman | Dec 4 2022 16:05 utc | 234

Speaking in Sydney, Marin says Europe needs to build its own defence capabilities

Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 4 2022 7:28 utc | 171

Marin has the heart in the right place but is a little dim. Why would Europe need to develop its own capabilities if the US has already developed all the weapons systems, solved all problems, everything works as advertised and is available for sale?

It's a good thing the US is so patient. Marin will be talked to in a simple language that is easy to understand and soon her comprehension will be much improved.

Posted by: bottle | Dec 4 2022 16:12 utc | 235

Nobody appears to mention Derivatives..
I thought that was an unknown Black Hole?

Posted by: harryash | Dec 4 2022 3:41 utc | 126

Think of it more as a wormhole that gets you from here to a totally new place in a hurry.

Posted by: bottle | Dec 4 2022 16:21 utc | 236

I'm very interested in the exact mechanisms of control of local elites...

Posted by: Moses | Dec 4 2022 14:50 utc | 226

You see that correctly. The "war on terror financing", the notion of "politically exposed persons" and associated laws of dealing with them are some technical details but at the root is a superiority of the intellect and morale.

Posted by: bottle | Dec 4 2022 16:46 utc | 237

"Think of it more as a wormhole that gets you from here to a totally new place in a hurry."

Posted by: bottle | Dec 4 2022 16:21 utc | 236

lol..thanks for that really has explained everything

Frankly...when i did investigate derivatives about ten yrs ago,
and I am no financial genius..(probably a luddite)...they were invented by some female person...I think....and when I got my head around the scam
it was amazing...but Ive since forgotten everything.

Posted by: harryash | Dec 4 2022 16:51 utc | 238

@Passerby 186

Russiaphobia together with extreme fear, hatred and loathing of anarchism and socialism were instigated in the USA in the 1800s. Anglo-French hatred and fear of Russia long predated that, particularly after the Sixth Coalition (Russia, Austria, and Prussia) ended Napoleon's reign in 1814 demonstrating indisputably the potential significance of "barbaric Russia" in European affairs. When the Anglo-Americans and French abandoned their direct intervened in the civil war, their attacks on their erstwhile ally continued, with many regions, stripped from Russia in the "separate peace" they had made with Germany being divided up in violation of law, principal and sense between the victors at Versailles. All three maintained aggressions against the Soviet Union and it's people through the 1920s and 1930's, and it was continued American economic hostilities that lead directly to the high death tolls in the 1931-1933 and 1947 famines, the final dismissal of the possibility of treaties with England and France that resulted in the 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and repeated Anglo-American plans to perfidiously attack the USSR and violate agreements which resulted in the Cold war, Korean war, Vietnam war and other disasters and near disasters like the "Caribbean/Cuban Missile Crisis" (which should be known as the "Turkish Missile Crisis", as well as near misses like the 1983 Soviet ‘War Scare’.

Posted by: Hermit | Dec 4 2022 17:01 utc | 239

Posted by: Moses | Dec 4 2022 14:50 utc | 226

I'm very interested in the exact mechanisms of control of local elites. I don't believe in M. Hudson's guess, that it's just plain bribery. Perhaps it's a mixture of soft measures like scholarships for students of political foundations like Heinrich-Böll-Stiftung and hard ones like personal blackmail, political threats and bribery.

Threats and bribery would be my guess as well. On that matter, Edward Snowden's 2013 disclosure have given us a good look at how personal blackmail material could be collected on just about anyone of interest.

However, in my opinion, carrots and sticks don't cover the entire picture. There is an essential third actor that must also be controlled in this game. Without his acquiescence, the chosen ones cannot make it to the top. I'm talking about the electorate, of course. The indispensable, but easily manipulated, executors of the 'make or break' sentences.

The rise of Macron in 2017 is a good example. The individual himself isn't particularly remarkable, but the instant ascension of a brand new party in the French political scape is incredible. On the other hand, regarding the power of the stick, the fall of Jeremy Corbyn comes to mind. I don't think it could have happened without bludgeoning the public to accept that particular cancellation.

The elite may sign the acts, but the public must be made to look elsewhere.

Posted by: robin | Dec 4 2022 17:32 utc | 240

Passerby | Dec 4 2022 6:40 utc | 157

It has an invulnerability based upon the 5000 nuclear weapons in its arsenal and the political will to use them against anyone that attacks it. That is the same invulnerability that Russia possesses.

Posted by: Nexus | Dec 4 2022 17:57 utc | 241

Steven Starr | Dec 4 2022 6:29 utc | 155

You have no credibility here, given where your money comes from:

Posted by: Nexus | Dec 4 2022 18:08 utc | 242

@ EO
Thanks for your post, it made my Sunday that you agreed with my layman’s, simpleton’s views on big socio-economic-finances – the intricacies of those I am not familiar with at all. I only have read (I forgot where) in comments that nowadays one can exchange as many roubles into euros as one wants in banks in St. Petersburg or Moscow. That indicates to me – if this information is true – that rich Russians can purchase stuff in third countries, outside of Western countries.

@ robin | Dec 4 2022 17:32 utc | 240
It is indeed fascinating to watch the “pathophysiology” of the Western systemic manipulation of public opinion, i.e. the electorate. One has to understand the “anatomy” – i.e. the people who steer the actions to influence public discourse. I have been observing only one small segment of the whole industry of information in Germany - the editorial character of the “independent” flagship of German press – the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. One of five or four publishers/owners of the paper was independent thinker Holger Steltzner (I may be wrong about the designation ‘publisher owner’, translation from German “Herausgeber”, but I think it is not too far off the mark). Steltzner was removed, or resigned several years ago, sometime after 2014 or 2015. The situation of the FAZ is described in a book by Udo Ulfkotte , “Gekaufte Journalisten. Wie Politiker, Geheimdienste und Hochfinanz Deutschlans Massenmedien lenken”. Ulfkotte died suddenly.

Posted by: fanto | Dec 4 2022 18:36 utc | 243

"Steven Starr | Dec 4 2022 6:29 utc | 155

You have no credibility here, given where your money comes from:

Posted by: Nexus | Dec 4 2022 18:08 utc | 242"

Well i just hadda quick look at the above site Nexus....and thankyou.

I thought he was a bit OTT and sensitive.

but that explains everything.

Not good...but now we know...

Posted by: harryash | Dec 4 2022 19:46 utc | 244

@ LightYearsFromHome @ 62,

Exactly. Abraham Lincoln introduced MMT greenbacks way back in 1863. It takes away the perpetual interest that banksters charge on the money for ever. That is why they are desperate to destroy the idea. But it is an idea that always appeals to any dictator worth his salt. Banksters try to destroy such dictators, but a time will come when they will be no longer able to kill all the dictators who issue their own money. Of course the dictators will abuse the privilege, but at least they won't charge perpetual interest on the money created.

Posted by: Old Brown Fool | Dec 6 2022 16:53 utc | 245

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