Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 9, 2022
‘Minsk II Was Agreed On To Arm Ukraine’ – Did Merkel Really Say That?

Helmholtz Smith, Andrew Korybko and Andrei Martyanov have some thoughts about a recent interview the former German chancellor Angela Merkel gave to the German weekly broadsheet Die Zeit.

Smith says it shows that the 'West' is not trustworthy. Korybko thinks the interview will prolong the conflict in Ukraine. Martyanov says that Merkel is stupid. She isn't.

In the interview Merkel seems to claim that the Minsk agreements between the Ukrainian government and the Donbas region, which she negotiated and co-signed as guarantor, was never meant to be fulfilled. It was only meant to give time to build up the Ukrainian military.

I however think that such an interpretation is wrong. Merkel is under very harsh critique not only in the U.S. but also in her own conservative party. She is now out to justify her previous decisions as well as the current bad outcome in Ukraine. My hunch is that she is making things up. Unfortunately she also creates serious damage.

The relevant passage of the interview is longer than the one paragraph Helmholtz Smith and other cite. The context is important. Here is my translation of it:

ZEIT: Do you ask yourself if the years of relative calm were also years of omissions and if you were not only a crisis manager, but also partly the cause of crises?

Merkel: I would not be a political person if I did not deal with that. […some stuff about climate action …] Let us look at my policy towards Russia and Ukraine. I come to the conclusion that I made the decisions I made back then in a way that I can understand today. It was an attempt to prevent just such a war. The fact that this was not successful does not mean that the attempts were wrong.

I think the above is genuine. The Minsk agreements were a serious attempt to prevent war by reintegrating Donbas into a federalized Ukraine.

However, the Ukrainian president Poroshenko did not have the will and the political backing to fulfill the agreement. There was no chance that, under him, a federalization law would pass the Ukrainian parliament. Moreover the U.S., the only party who could have really pressured him, told him not to follow up on the agreement. But then came Zelensky who was elected by a large majority on the promise to fulfill Minsk II. He even made attempts to do that. But he soon found out that his own life was in serious danger if he continued to try. There was also U.S. pressure as it which did not want Minsk fulfilled. Merkel however can not say that out loud. By late 2019 she must have recognized that Minsk II was blocked forever. It was a serious defeat for her but there was nothing she could do about it.

She therefore now comes up, ex post, with a Chamberlain excuse. The 1938 Munich agreement Chamberlain signed prevented Germany from immediately going to war and gave the UK and others time to arm up. The Minsk agreement, Merkel claims now, bought time for Ukraine to get its military into better conditions:

ZEIT: But one can still find it plausible how one acted in earlier circumstances and today, in view of the results, consider it wrong.

Merkel: But that also requires you to say what exactly the alternatives were at the time. I thought the initiation of NATO accession for Ukraine and Georgia discussed in 2008 was wrong. The countries neither had the necessary prerequisites for this, nor had the consequences of such a decision been fully considered, both with regard to Russia's actions against Georgia and Ukraine and to NATO and its rules of assistance. And the 2014 Minsk agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time.

(ZEIT Editor Note: The Minsk Agreement is a set of agreements for the self-proclaimed republics of Donetsk and Luhansk, which under Russian influence broke away from Ukraine . The aim was to gain time with a ceasefire in order to later come to a peace between Russia and Ukraine.)

It also used this time to get stronger, as you can see today. The Ukraine of 2014/15 is not the Ukraine of today. As you saw in the battle for Debaltseve (railway town in Donbass, Donetsk Oblast, ed.) in early 2015, Putin could easily have overrun them at the time. And I very much doubt that the NATO countries could have done as much then as they do now to help Ukraine.

ZEIT: In your first public appearance after the end of your chancellorship, you said that you had already recognized in 2007 how Putin thinks about Europe and that the only language he understands is harshness. If this realization came so early, why did you pursue an energy policy that made us so dependent on Russia?

Merkel: It was clear to all of us that the conflict was frozen, that the problem had not been solved, but that gave Ukraine valuable time. Of course, one can now ask the question: Why was the construction of Nord Stream 2 still approved in such a situation?

ZEIT: Yes, why? Especially since there was already very strong criticism of the construction of the pipeline at that time, for example from Poland and the USA.

Merkel: Yes, one could come to different opinions. What was it about? On the one hand, Ukraine attached great importance to remaining a transit country for Russian gas. It wanted to channel gas through her territory and not through the Baltic Sea. Today people sometimes act as if every Russian gas molecule was from the devil. It wasn't like that, the gas was contested. On the other hand, it was not the case that the federal government had applied for the approval of Nord Stream 2, the companies did that. Ultimately, for the federal government and for me, it was a matter of deciding whether we would make a new law as a political act to expressly refuse approval of Nord Stream 2.

ZEIT: What prevented you from doing that?

Merkel: On the one hand, such a refusal in combination with the Minsk Agreement would, in my view, have dangerously worsened the climate with Russia. On the other hand, the energy policy dependency arose because there was less gas from the Netherlands and Great Britain and limited production volumes in Norway. …

I think that Merkel is obfuscating. Her original intent with Minsk II was not to buy time to arm Ukraine. Her intent was to prevent a further war and to make peace. The argument, that it gave time for Ukraine to arm, is only made now and only to save her political ass in the current political climate.

The proof for that is in what she also brings up, Nord Stream 2, which has always had her full support. Its intent was to make Germany independent from the pipelines through Ukraine and Poland. But war came before the much delayed pipeline was ready. And any realistic alternative for Germany's current position was gone after the U.S. finally blew it up. Her answer with regards to Nord Stream 2 makes no sense if she, at the same time that Nord Stream 2 was being built, had intentionally prepared Ukraine for war.

There is another point that makes the 'bought time' ex post argument invalid. In 2014 Russia came under quite harsh sanctions and had huge problems to reconfigure its supply chains. Russia has used the time since to prepare for even harsher sanctions and a war. Notice how few problems Russia has now after really crushing sanctions were deployed. That required preparation. In 2018 Russia introduced a number of superior strategic weapons which are now deployed. In 2014 the S-400 air defense system was only a prototype. Today all Russian air defense groups have and deploy it. Russia used the time to up its war supplies, especially artillery ammunition and missiles.

If you think the 'bought time' argument is genuine look at the situation in Russia and compare with the Ukraine and the rest of Europe. Who has used the time better? Who is now in a better position? 

The problem with Merkel's sorry and false excuse is that it creates, as Korybko points out, real damage. Everyone, including Russia's president Putin, seems to read only that one paragraph with the ex post argument, not the full context. This makes bringing the war in Ukraine to an end much more difficult.

Putin now says he had believed in Merkel's seriousness about Minsk. He is now deeply disappointed. Who can he talk to about peace when everyone one on the other side is non-agreement capable?

AZ 🛰🌏🌍🌎 @AZgeopolitics – 15:41 UTC · 9 Dec 2022

🇩🇪🇺🇦🇷🇺 Putin – about Merkel's words about cheating with the Minsk agreements:"To be honest, it was absolutely unexpected for me. It's disappointing. Trust almost dropped to 0. How to negotiate? About what? And is it possible to negotiate with them? Where are the guarantees? "

Video with English subs


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I hope that Putin will still read the interview in its full context and change his mind.

Was it Merkel's intent to undermine trust? I don't know. Why would she?

For the record: I have disliked most of Merkel's  policies. I never voted for her or for any of the parties which supported her governments. But she wasn't a bad politician and I did respect her. That respect is now gone.

Comments

Norwegian sums it up perfectly in comment #16
Also, Merkel was always the obedient puppet of nato. Giving Ukraine time to be prepared (by nato) for war was just following orders.

Posted by: TEP | Dec 9 2022 22:44 utc | 101

B, just a thought? Perhaps Merkel had all the best of intentions in 2014/15, but after, I don’t know, 5 or 6 years, don’t you think she should have known something was up? And what about France? Was France and Poroshenko hiding their evil plans from Mrs. Merkel?

Posted by: Ed | Dec 9 2022 22:46 utc | 102

hey people
Stop viwing the world and people in such childish simplistic terms.
i think B is pretty close to the reality, but remember that every one of us humans are very complex, and that the truth that we believe today, even about ourselves, may not be the truth tomorrow, even if both times we think we are telling the truth.
Think on this. It is coming to Xmas and most of us will be selecting a present for a relation or two. When we find in the bottom drawer an unopened packet of fancy socks and we make a decision to give that to Uncle Fred or nephew James, do we do so because it is cheap, or we do not have time to go out and choose something else, or we actually do not care much about Fred or James or we genuinely think those socks will tickle their fancy and they will love them. The reality is that all four reasons may be true, but the reason we select to tell may change, depending on who we are talking to or the time of day and our mood. In giving the old socks to Fred or James, we take the slight risk of offending them and we each make a judgement about what would be the real effect of giving offense.
This simplistic story should tell you that it is just the same with any deal or negotiation. There are lots of influential factors, all of them true, and each also just a little bit false. So for Angela in 2015, I am sure she did want to prevent a wider war. She was also keen to keep German industry happy by getting cheap gas. No doubt she also had grave doubts about the reliability of Ukraine as a transit corridor for gas. I am guessing also that that she had a respect for Putin and assumed he would keep his word and that she was happy enough to give a bit of a finger towards bullying Uncle Sam and the pesky UK, and also had a keen eye to the economic benefits of Eurasian integration. At the same time she was no doubt well aware that there was a risk of a Ukraine military build up and that many of her allies and many in her own party would be very keen to see a war start in Ukraine that would seriously weaken Russia. At the end of the day, we now know she made the wrong judgement call. The forces pushing for war were stronger than those supporting German industry, however I think most of us in 2015 would have made the same call she did.
Much the same is true of Putin. He too believed that Minsk II would be the best outcome for Russia and probably Ukraine. He was also well aware that Russia was not in a military or economic position to take on NATO completely. It was not. So Putin pushed hard for Minsk II, but at the same time worked to make his economy resilient and to get Russia’s high tech weaponry reliable enough to cope with the west. He used Syria to demonstrate capacity, thinking it would calm the US/UK down. He actively befriended Çhina and Turkey and kept an eye on other neighbours and potential colour revolutions. Like Merkel at the end of the day, he may have made the wrong judgement call, thinking that the US/UK/EU would be rational. Putin, Lavrov, Merkel and most thinking people in Europe, would today be astounded that Europe has chosen to self destruct. The four years of Trump may have added a bit of complacency, although it SHOULD have alerted them to the depths of Russia-phobia in the US/EU establishment. If there was a poor judgement call by Russia, this is at its heart.

Posted by: watcher | Dec 9 2022 22:47 utc | 103

The central problem in this affair is that the United Nations was established to govern actions between sovereign nations, and not to meddle in the internal problems in nations.
UNSCR 2202(2015) did not recognize any independence of Donest and Lubansk, rather it attemped to settle an internal Ukraine problem, which the UN is not designed nor intended to do.
So the UN requiring local autonomy for the two Donbas areas wasn’t done, because Ukraine didn’t want it done, and
it doesn’t matter what France and Germany, or the UN, wanted.
Regarding human rights, the UN over ten years ago introduced reports on the Responsibility to Protect — R2P — which led to the attacks on Serbia, the destruction of Libya, and a general failure to ever implement actions effectively, as efforts got tangled up by economics and politics.
The international wars by the US with their vast and terrible human rights violations never interested the UN, so why the interest in domestic human rights matters?

Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 9 2022 22:48 utc | 104

@karlof1 | Dec 9 2022 18:00 utc | 2 and |70
I agree. The number was UNSCR 2202 2/17/2015 at unscr dotcom/en/resolutions/2202 (also UNSCR 2166 2014):
“The Security Council, Recalling the purposes and principles enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations and reaffirming its full respect for the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Ukraine, Expressing its grave concern at the tragic events and violence in eastern regions of Ukraine, Reaffirming its Resolution 2166 (2014), Firmly convinced that the resolution of the situation in eastern regions of Ukraine can only be achieved through a peaceful settlement to the current crisis, 1. Endorses the “Package of measures for the Implementation of the Minsk Agreements”, adopted and signed in Minsk on 12 February 2015 (Annex I);
2. Welcomes the Declaration by the President of the Russian Federation, the President of Ukraine, the President of the French Republic and the Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany in support of the “Package of measures for the Implementation of the Minsk Agreements”, adopted on 12 February 2015 in Minsk (Annex II), and their continuing commitment therein to the implementation of the Minsk Agreements;
3. Calls on all parties to fully implement the “Package of measures”, including a comprehensive ceasefire as provided for therein;…”

Posted by: Sam F | Dec 9 2022 22:48 utc | 105

Great analysis of the Merkel interview. Thanks for this.

Posted by: Dim sim | Dec 9 2022 22:48 utc | 106

Stolen from twitter:
I identify as a conspiracy theorist.
My pronouns are:
I | Told | You | So

Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 9 2022 22:54 utc | 107

«Putin now says he had believed in Merkel’s seriousness about Minsk. He is now deeply disappointed. Who can he talk to about peace when everyone one on the other side is non-agreement capable?»
As to “realpolitik” a fundamental principle of international negotiations is that they are based trading something for something, and treaties last only as long *both* parties get their side of the trade.
The RF government wanted for the Donbas people not to be massacred and pushed out, wanted to keep using RF bases in Crimea, wanted NATO to roll back to the 1991 membership, and wanted a collective security guarantee.
What was the RF government offering in to trade for all of that? Pretty much nothing.
Consider also the famous promise by an USA government representative that NATO would not expand beyond Germany in exchange for the USSR military forces to leave the Democratic Republic of Germany.
Once the USSR military forces left the DRG, what could the USSR or the RF offer, once they had left Germany, in exchange for NATO continuing to not expand beyond Germany? Pretty much nothing.
That’s how “realpolitik” works.

Posted by: Blissex | Dec 9 2022 22:54 utc | 108

Posted by: Per/Norway | Dec 9 2022 21:47 utc | 86

So, she basically said that the united West lied, posing as peacekeepers, and in fact planned to spend billions to bring the Armed Forces of Ukraine to a combat-ready state for a serious war with Russia. Could Merkel not have arranged this celebration of unprecedented revelations? Easy. So why did she give our Foreign Ministry such a strong information pitch? Now, based on Poroshenko’s confession and her statement, Russia completely absolves itself of the responsibility unfairly assigned by the Western media and diplomats for starting the bloodshed. And, what is the use of her “kaminaut”, to someone else? … … …

Until this above comment (@86) isn’t yet resolved by “us” on that above multiple questionmarks (?), it’s an open decision to have decided performing a very new strategy toward NATO-$ MIL-Equipment… Wait a while:
Another new billions newly promised by US Congress ? Where then that all to deliver locally to Poland/Ukr/Romania/Bulgaria and when – on what roads/rails then?
Is no target for that shipments is in-sight?
Merkel- remind yours: She grew-up within the DDR-State’s mentality, was a “chief” by learning everywhere from the beginning of her upcoming, may speeking some RU, father was/is Christ priest (!Read Jesus & Moses on the killing paragraph!), husband is a well-known engaged friend of Soros ! ..
So, another few questionmarks acc.to the commentator above, have been sent here ahead.
Hope, it’s going all well for “us” (MoA) a newly necessary RF MIL-strategy, with retreat of AFU step-by-step as planned by RF the “times before” along.
(pls. not only step qm-by-qm, but by 100% cut-off Volt+Internet)
Thanks for listening.
All current figures of died civis/soldiers on either side, would be summarized asap. when available by public sources, and when have counted also the cici deaths in Donbass.

Posted by: spare_truth | Dec 9 2022 22:59 utc | 109

It seems that Putin never heard of “realpolitik”.
Posted by: Blissex | Dec 9 2022 22:42 utc | 98

It seems that you never heard of “rhetoric”.
Old Vlad the Wily is playing ’em like a Stradivarius.

Posted by: Gt Stroller | Dec 9 2022 23:03 utc | 110

Mark2 | Dec 9 2022 22:23 utc | 91
Anglo/western strategy is Mackinder and Brzezinski. Sea powers vs the heartland. Idiot Europeans have been conquered but energy from the heartland is flowing into Asia. Too much depth and strength within Russia.
The speeches by Yeltsin and Putin when Yeltsin handed over power. Most look at it through western eyes. Yeltsin for whatever he was was looking for somebody that could lead his country. Much depth there. Western thought is so shallow it has no understanding of what occurred.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Dec 9 2022 23:06 utc | 111

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Dec 9 2022 21:16 utc | 79
«I think regardless of what Merkel said and the interpretations of it, it has caused serious damage with Russia»
So the german government is again funding, training and supplying war weapons to Bandera/Petliura/Dontsov fascists cosplaying “nazi” for the purpose of using them as a proxy army to massacre more russian civilians and kill more russian soldiers, just like 80 years ago, and relationships between the german government and the russians can still be damaged even more? Amazing optimism.

Posted by: Blissex | Dec 9 2022 23:06 utc | 112

Posted by: Blissex | Dec 9 2022 22:54 utc | 107

The RF government wanted for the Donbas people not to be massacred and pushed out, wanted to keep using RF bases in Crimea, wanted NATO to roll back to the 1991 membership, and wanted a collective security guarantee.
What was the RF government offering in to trade for all of that? Pretty much nothing.

It was offering the peace.
Quite something IMO, but apparently not for everyone.

Posted by: hopehely | Dec 9 2022 23:08 utc | 113

What I am interested in is what Merkel actually said in this interview. The only way to properly assess that is by reading the whole interview. It seems that there is no English translation of the entire interview.
What she thought then and what motivated her then and now can only be established through thororough research. Not on the basis of one interview. The interview only tells us what she SAID, not what she thought or is thinking, in part, because she is fundamentally dishonest. When she is telling the truth and when she is lying can be distinguishedon the basis of deeper knowledge of the issues at stake, the main characters, the history of the issues and many, many more elements.
It is a fact though that the Minsk agreements were not implemented and that Germany and France did nothing to have them implemented. It is also a fact that Russia was genuinely interested in the agreements becoming reality. In hindsight Putin thinks he made a mistake. But it was sound policy to opt for pease then, not for war, and that’s what the agreements were supposed to lead to. Surely, it can never be wrong to leave war as a very last resort.
Here is Ritter on the same topic: https://consortiumnews.com/2022/12/05/scott-ritter-merkel-reveals-wests-duplicity/

Posted by: JB | Dec 9 2022 23:09 utc | 114

«the duplicity of US policy regarding their recognition of the Golan by Israel but not Crimea by Russia»
A reminder: there is a huge distinction between (our) “freedom fighters” and (their) “terrorists”. 🙂
George Orwell “As I please”, 1945: “The Daily Worker disapproves of dictatorship in Athens, the Catholic Herald disapproves of dictatorship in Belgrade. There is no one who is able to say – at least, no one who has the chance to say in a newspaper of big circulation – that this whole dirty game of spheres of influence, quislings, purges, deportation, one-party elections and hundred per cent plebiscites is morally the same whether it is done by ourselves, the Russians or the Nazis.”

Posted by: Blissex | Dec 9 2022 23:11 utc | 115

And when you get there – I find when I get there at least – the actual reality, which is to say the people who live in these places – are completely forgotten, discounted, marginalised, stripped of all significance. They become not even puppets, they simply don’t appear on stage.
Shadowy figures offstage engaged in bloody wars and dying by the hundreds of thousands… refugees… the destroyed and dispossessed
Above posted by: abrogard | Dec 9 2022 21:49 utc | 87
At least in nominal democracies they implicitly do appear on stage, because they have at least limited agency to control the actions their governments take. Even if they are easily manipulated sheep they are responsible for allowing themselves to be.
I recall the immediate aftermath of 9/11 in the U.S., where deafening chest-thumping outrage and demands to invade Afghanistan and simply run over Pakistan if it refused to permit the attack through its own country dominated Internet babble about the appropriate response with virtually no understanding that we were simply experiencing legitimate payback for our behavior in the Middle East over a full half-century or more.
By the same token the current war in Ukraine is the legitimate aftermath for the portion of its population supporting its nominal government after it accepted the overthrow its legitimately-elected constitutional government in 2014 and acquiesced to becoming a U.S.. patsy (they had another opportunity to fix this when Zelensky failed to follow his campaign pledges to pursue neutrality and peace with Russia as national policy).
Citizens of nominally democratic nations who can’t be bothered with such ‘external’ matters really don’t have much to complain about when they come back and bite them in the ass. One is of course always free to accord them some charitable sympathy anyway, but I tend to reserve most such sympathy for those who pay more direct prices for the indifference of others.

Posted by: StirThePot | Dec 9 2022 23:12 utc | 116

Posted by: Ed | Dec 9 2022 22:36 utc | 94
«the US could have abided by the 1991 promise made by the George H.W. Bush administration to keep NATO away from Russia’s border. The US could have negotiated a security agreement with the Russians — as they have regularly requested over the last three decades. The US could have made Ukraine abide by the Minsk Accord(s) to which the Ukrainians and Russians had in principle agreed.»
Again: in exchange of what? What was the USA government going to get from the RF for all these huge concessions? In international negotiations concessions don’t come for free, “just because” does not work.
Instead since 1991 the USA government got quite cheaply enduring control of Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, the baltic statelets and nearly got enduring control of the Russian Federation itself. What could have the russians offered to the USA in exchange for not trying to do that?

Posted by: Blissex | Dec 9 2022 23:20 utc | 117

Merkel hatte in dem am Donnerstag veröffentlichten Interview wörtlich gesagt: „Und das Minsker Abkommen 2014 war der Versuch, der Ukraine Zeit zu geben. Sie hat diese Zeit hat auch genutzt, um stärker zu werden, wie man heute sieht.“
Tagespiegel, 09-12-2022

Posted by: Francisco Gómez Oliv | Dec 9 2022 23:26 utc | 118

Oh dear, talk about “deeply disappointing”. The fact is Russia has been the biggest gullible sucker on this planet for 30 years! Making the same mistakes over and over and over and over again.
It would be much better to actually wake up and see this reality as it is. Unfortunately for too many when reality fails to match their opinions, beliefs, or internalized myths, the next step is to try to change the facts. To double down harder to force their internalized illusions and faulty misguided opinions to change the reality instead. It cannot be done. Try as we may.

My hunch is that she is making things up.
I think that Merkel is obfuscating. Her original intent with Minsk II was not to buy time to arm Ukraine. Her intent was to prevent a further war and to make peace. The argument, that it gave time for Ukraine to arm, is only made now and only to save her political ass in the current political climate.
Her answer with regards to Nord Stream 2 makes no sense if she, at the same time that Nord Stream 2 was build, had intentionally prepared Ukraine for war.
I hope that Putin will still read the interview in its full context and change his mind.
Was it Merkel’s intent to undermine trust? I don’t know. Why would she?
The problem with Merkel’s sorry and false excuse is that ……….

Reality is not formed by hunches. Merkel the newly crowned ‘Queen Con Artist of Europe’ easily tricked V Putin and the entire Russian Security Council for over 8 years. She lied. Now, get over it. When will the penny drop that is the reality not the myth? Russia has been had. Been ripped off. Been conned. By Angela Merkel and Macron. Those light weights? Yes.
This year Russia have been conned all over again by Boris Johnson, Scholtz, Zelensky and Biden and Blinken. Yes, by those light weights! But Russia are the really smart ones? Russia and Putin, China and Xi, have it all sorted out now. The future is grand! Seriously, wake up folks. The US is not a pussycat getting a tummy rub. Stop believing all the made up guff being sold to you as “intelligent analysis”. It isn’t.
The following is a made-up – it obviously does not match reality:

Everyone, including Russia’s president Putin, seems to read only that one paragraph with the ex post argument, not the full context.

That is plain silly, it’s nonsense iow, ignore it.
Meanwhile Putin tells it like it is for himself:

“To be honest, it was absolutely unexpected for me. It’s disappointing. Trust almost dropped to 0. How to negotiate? About what? And is it possible to negotiate with them? Where are the guarantees? “

No third party intermediaries are required to speak for Putin. He does it fine all by himself.
Though I do question why Trust only dropped to almost zero. What he needs to hit Absolute Zero simply boggles my mind. But that’s Putin. The history documents Putin is always willing to come back for more and live the maxim of:

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Look, seriously Putin was conned. He knows it. All the Russians were conned. They know it. Merkel was a liar. Aren’t they all? The Russians have being conned for 3 decades now, repeatedly. Lavrov confirmed it in his speech promoted by Karlof1 the last few days. But he is another one “missing the point”, not me!
About Her answer with regards to Nord Stream 2 makes no sense ….?
That’s the thing about Liars. Be they politicians or forum commenters. What they say will always not make sense eventually. That’s the #1 major tell to spot a Liar, a Con artist, and a Fraud. It makes no sense! Especially their explanations after the event.
The hard fact is, Russia has been making comprises with the West for decades – and here we are. But now, Russia (Lavrov/Putin et al) say they have turned a new leaf. Why does anyone believe this? Where is the proof of this? Listing yet again all the times the US/West has lied to them, made fools of them, conned them, manipulated and humiliated them, doesn’t change anything.
It’s just a list.
Every thing has not changed because Lavrov finally says Russia is no longer living under the illusion that the West are their Colleagues and Partners anymore. After being under that very illusion for 20 plus years – now everything has righted itself in a instant? No, I won’t believe it until I actually see it. So far, there’s nothing but words, not actions. The Ukraine enterprise has been a debacle based on very bad judgements and decisions.
The original strategy was obviously flawed (in hindsight). Now add in Merkel’s own words to the frame and you might see why it failed. Putin removed his troops from around Kiev before an agreement had been made by Zelensky. Even he can con Putin – wow!
Let’s see how things are going in late March 2023 across Ukraine and Russia. You’ll need to wait to see when and what the next compromise by Russia is going to be. What will be the next thing promised by the West the Russians will believe?
Or will Russian leadership finally wake the fuck up and get real with the extreme psychopaths they are dealing with for decades! What will the Russian do when the US does the “unthinkable” and deploys military forces against the Russians on the ground in and around Ukraine?
Why would anyone believe what the US Officials have said on that score. They lie about everything all the time. Get real folks. Stop listening to the myth makers on both sides. Think.

Posted by: SeanAU | Dec 9 2022 23:30 utc | 119

Posted by: hopehely | Dec 9 2022 23:08 utc | 112
«“What was the RF government offering in to trade for all of that? Pretty much nothing.”
It was offering the peace.»
Oh really? When did Putin threaten to bring war to Washington and New York (or London, Berlin, Paris) unless he got all those concessions? for the USA government Ukraine is expendable :-(.
Perhaps Putin in effect said to the USA government “Give me all those concessions or I will ensure that the Russian Federation is no longer at peace but engaged in a big expensive nasty war with Ukraine”.
If so, the answer of the USA ruling elites to that has been “Go ahead and make my day!” :-).

Posted by: Blissex | Dec 9 2022 23:31 utc | 120

«aftermath of 9/11 in the U.S., […] simply experiencing legitimate payback for our behavior in the Middle East over a full half-century or more.»
Oh please, that was not the issue: if it was Osama who did 9.11, his very clearly stated reason was the desecration of the holy expanse of Arabia with corporate offices and military bases full of infidels (never mind the koranic obligation to accept and also protect those infidels if they are “people of the book”).

Posted by: Blissex | Dec 9 2022 23:36 utc | 121

b.. thanks for the excellent analysis of the interview.. i do believe you are correct in your conclusions too and was wondering about all this a few days ago when it was pitched as it has been…
it doesn’t change the fact europe has no independence or autonomy in any of this.. they are fully owned by the usa and continue to do much worse then shooting themselves in the foot with their ongoing support for nato.. it is impossible to help those who can’t help themselves…
we continue on and all the silly speculation continues on at moa as well. oh well..

Posted by: james | Dec 9 2022 23:43 utc | 122

It is a fact though that the Minsk agreements were not implemented and that Germany and France did nothing to have them implemented. […] Surely, it can never be wrong to leave war as a very last resort.
Posted by: JB | Dec 9 2022 23:09 utc | 113

Yes, facts are facts. They matter far more than opinions, myths and illusions, because they tend to speak for themselves – if only people would hear them! It can be very wrong to leave war to the last resort – those last resorts are always mirages, more lies and deception. The Wests duplicity, their outright lying to the world, has not ever truly been hidden. Merkel changes nothing.
Russia and the Donbass should have already realized they had been totally conned over Minsk. Everyone should have realized this before the end of 2015 — it was as plain as day then! Russia should never have pushed for it or demanded it. No one party to it were trustworthy – and that was clear as day as well.
Russia has no excuses for the failure of the Minsk accords. They are not innocent victims. They were just being stupid.

Posted by: SeanAU | Dec 9 2022 23:46 utc | 123

So. Let’s break this down.
1 I lied to Putin then but I’m telling the truth now
2 I told the truth to Putin then but I’m lying now.
Question. Do you trust her?
End of story.

Posted by: HELMHOLTZ SMITH | Dec 9 2022 23:47 utc | 124

b: “Her answer with regards to Nord Stream 2 makes no sense if she, at the same time that Nord Stream 2 was build [sic], had intentionally prepared Ukraine for war.”
I’m not entirely convinced (not that I care much about the whole discussion.)
It seems to me quite possible that both are true: 1) that Merkel recognized – but did not support – that the US and NATO did not want Minsk II implemented, and 2) that she wanted gas independence from Ukraine.
In the interview she says:

I thought the initiation of NATO accession for Ukraine and Georgia discussed in 2008 was wrong. The countries neither had the necessary prerequisites for this, nor had the consequences of such a decision been fully considered, both with regard to Russia’s actions against Georgia and Ukraine and to NATO and its rules of assistance. And the 2014 Minsk agreement was an attempt to give Ukraine time.

Note that she talks about the discussion by NATO about Ukraine joining NATO. Then she makes the general statement that Minsk was an attempt to give NATO time to arm Ukraine.
She never says “I wanted Minsk II to give Ukraine time to arm.” Essentially what she’s saying is that she bowed to the will of the US and NATO over her own preferences.
She then herself asks the question: ” Of course, one can now ask the question: Why was the construction of Nord Stream 2 still approved in such a situation?” She then answers it with:

“Merkel: On the one hand, such a refusal in combination with the Minsk Agreement would, in my view, have dangerously worsened the climate with Russia. On the other hand, the energy policy dependency arose because there was less gas from the Netherlands and Great Britain and limited production volumes in Norway. …”

I don’t know whether the latter response is true or not. But if true, it explains why she supported NS2 despite recognizing that the US and NATO intended to arm Ukraine. Perhaps she hoped German dependence on Russian gas via NS2 would give Germany leverage over the US and NATO with regard to Ukraine. She probably never expected someone like Scholz to give it away – and then the US to blow it up.
In other words, she clearly states that Minsk II was intended to buy time for Ukraine to arm. I don’t think anyone can deny that’s true. And everyone seems to agree that Merkel wanted NS2.
But I don’t see how one can prove that Merkel was lying about her intentions about Minsk II.
I don’t think Merkel is “obfuscating” at all. I think she answered the questions truthfully, and everyone else is interpreting them according to their own impressions. Which is, of course, the same thing I’m doing. 🙂
Maybe you had to be there…

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Dec 9 2022 23:50 utc | 125

UNSCR 2202(2015) did not recognize any independence of Donest and Lubansk, rather it attemped to settle an internal Ukraine problem, which the UN is not designed nor intended to do.
So, the UN requiring local autonomy for the two Donbas areas wasn’t done, because Ukraine didn’t want it done, and it doesn’t matter what France and Germany, or the UN, wanted.
The international wars by the US with their vast and terrible human rights violations never interested the UN, so why the interest in domestic human rights matters?
Posted by: Don Bacon | Dec 9 2022 22:48 utc | 103
Gee Don, you explained nicely what we all know about the UN; that it is an instrument of the US and NATO (the EU) and it is no longer a defender of Human Rights.
We all know that from the Clinton Serbia/ Kosovo affair. In 1999 the UN allowed the US and NATO (the EU) to do to Serbia exactly what the US says Russia can’t do today in Ukraine. But the precedence has been set, if you are rescuing people who claim to be mistreated, then that is OK with the EU under the US RULES-BASED INTERNATIONAL ORDER (RBIO).
The same is true for Iraq. The US and the UK said that they believed that possibility that Iraq possessed WMD’s posed an existential threat to the security of the US/UK. They weren’t 100% sure about the WMD’s, but Condoleezza Rice, speaking for the Bush / Cheney Administration on a host of Sunday news shows stated that the Administration did not want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud. Thus, the infamous 1% doctrine sufficient to invade any nation in the world that might spook Bush and Cheney.
The US invaded Iraq with “shock and awe” killing millions of civilians and military personal, while destroying homes and infrastructure. So, again the precedence was set once again, and Russia has been pleading for the US and the EU to stop expanding east towards Russia’s border.
Of course, we all know this at the MoA, but your comment was worth expanding on.

Posted by: Ed | Dec 9 2022 23:52 utc | 126

“What was the USA government going to get from the RF for all these huge concessions?”
Above posted by: Blissex | Dec 9 2022 23:20 utc | 116
You are obviously completely ignorant of the answer to that question.
What the U.S., and the U.K., and France, and West Germany (the main players in NATO and each of which had veto power over any new members) got AS PART OF THAT EARLY 90’S DEAL, not afterward, was Russia’s cooperation with the reunification of Germany. Not only the commitment that NATO would not expand one inch eastward (with the exception of inclusion of the reunified Germany but with restrictions on placement of nuclear weapons in what had been East Germany) and that a new pan-European security and trade organization (OSCE, effectively replacing NATO and including Russia) would satisfy security concerns.
Any other questions?

Posted by: StirThePot | Dec 9 2022 23:53 utc | 127

Posted by: Blissex | Dec 9 2022 23:31 utc | 119

Oh really? When did Putin threaten to bring war to Washington and New York (or London, Berlin, Paris) unless he got all those concessions?

Back in January when Sergei Ryabkov said that “military technical measures” will be taken if demands stated in those 2 documents are not met. It was pretty clear that RF is ready to resolve the issue one way or another.
USA and NATO said no, and here we are, witnessing those measures in action.

If so, the answer of the USA ruling elites to that has been “Go ahead and make my day!” :-).

You think they like it? I am not sure about that.

Posted by: hopehely | Dec 9 2022 23:55 utc | 128

thank you b for your sincere words.
I will not defend Merkel. Anyone who has led Germany for 16 years has blood on his or her hands.
The criticism of her actions is however fascist in comparison. Suddenly virtually everybody argues according to the perversions of “1984” – ignorance is strength, war is peace.
Your suggestion Merkel made this up is remarkable and actually a classical and sound piece of insight.
But then why make those unnecessary allusions to 1938?
(Whether she knows it or not: There is this historical revisionist study that considers it not appeasement but collusion between the British establishment minus Churchill, some French and Americans and the German Nazi hardcores – see the 1997 “In Our Time: The Chamberlain-Hitler Collusion – by Clement Leibovitz and Alvin Finkel”
https://monthlyreview.org/product/in_our_time/)
And then it corresponds with what she has been doing all those years, administering the status quo, act harsher where possible.
People seem to think she is nice just because she is a girl.
(Ask Varoufakis what he thinks of Merkel)
Instead of e.g. trying to reach out to China, to India, to South America, etc. for new alliances, new paths for Ukraine among others.
To start thinking with a new vision.
But none of that.
It really reveals the entire hollowness of German political elites. Which now has taken even a downward tail.
So what on earth makes her a politician worth the money?
But having said all this: who is even worse than Merkel?
DIE ZEIT (and Co.)
p.s. I dare doubt that Putin takes that stuff she said at face value. So the damage might be symbolic only. And after all. What do the Russians care? After Berlin´s embarassing way of handling the NS 1 & 2 affair what can you expect from these irresponsible clowns?

Posted by: AG | Dec 9 2022 23:57 utc | 129

Posted by: SeanAU | Dec 9 2022 23:46 utc | 122
«No one party to it were trustworthy»
Posted by: HELMHOLTZ SMITH | Dec 9 2022 23:47 utc | 123
«Question. Do you trust her?»
Again, in “realpolitik” the concept of “trust” is irrelevant, it is just a propaganda talking point for the gullibles of the “home front” (Posted by: Gt Stroller | Dec 9 2022 23:03 utc | 109: «”rhetoric”. Old Vlad the Wily is playing ’em like a Stradivarius.»).
What matters is whether the concessions of one side continue to be balanced by the concessions of the other side.

Posted by: Blissex | Dec 9 2022 23:58 utc | 130

Gt Stroller | Dec 9 2022 23:03 utc | 109
>…Putin is playing them like a Stradivarius.
Yep.
He has TWO options:
1/ Haha. We KNEW the EU / Merkel was lying.
(Therefore being complicit in the lie… / being deceitful a lier oneself.
2/ We trusted you. We negotiated in Good Faith. We were deceived.
Shame on You.
And Trust lost cannot easily or ever be regained.
Liars, charlatans, sharks and shysters always turn that shame back on those who’ve been deceived.
But that it projection.
I believe Putin, who’s been negotiating with Deceivers his entire career was appropriately sceptical.
If he *really* believed them he wouldn’t have himself driven Russia to rearm and modernise the military for 8 years.
He even went into Syria.. to show (among many points)
Russia militarily was very much a peer, not a “near peer”.
Russia keeps its obligations to its allies.
Russia learnt close up about U$ military capability..
Putin stating he and the Russian negotiating team were deceived.
And that the UN was deceived.
It’s the Higher Ground.
And it shows RoW “who can you trust”?
BTW
Shoigu in Kazakhstan
Mere days after signing a military agreement with Belarus. Shoigu flew to Kazakhstan and signed a military agreement.
So, that’s the two biggest borders “secured”.
Georgia still has a swollen nose from the upper cut Russia delivered in 2008… they are staying right out of any further military bellicositywith Russia
(A contingent of mercenaries may or may not be covert support)
Azerbaijan wants to link in with Iran and Turkey with the North-South corridor, and Armenia now in the U$ came is taken as seriously as the bark from a toy dog.
Russia knows its region and the region knows Russia… and the Ukraine business has reacquainted them with the advantages and advisability of being in alignment with Russia, rather than not…

Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 10 2022 0:00 utc | 131

IMO the RF leadership knew Minsk2 was garbage as they had that learned that lesson in Syria, most likely well before that. If a random guy on the internet learned that lesson the RF sure as hell learned it well before me. Who armed themselves to the teeth and organized like crazy during those 8yrs? Not Ukraine. Don’t think the RF is running out of ammo/manpower anytime soon. Who has ~550,000 trooped amassed and organized to fight? Sure as hell ain’t the Ukrainians nor NATO.
Don’t know much about judo but do think I read something somewhere about using your opponents inertia/energy against themselves. Is that not what we are currently witnessing?

Posted by: dust | Dec 10 2022 0:02 utc | 132

Posted by: Perimetr | Dec 9 2022 18:47 utc | 26 “Also Putin revising the Russian no-first use policy”
Russia, officially, doesn’t have a no first use policy.
The 2020 Presidential Executive Order on Nuclear Deterrence in Article 4 uses the wording: “deterrence of a potential adversary from aggression against the Russian Federation and/or its allies. In the event of a military conflict, this Policy provides for the prevention of an escalation of military actions and their termination on conditions that are acceptable for the Russian Federation and/or its allies.”[33] This has been interpreted as describing non-nuclear scenarios where Russia might use nuclear weapons to achieve its military goals.
Has the policy been updated for the comments Putin made?

Posted by: Bill Smith | Dec 10 2022 0:04 utc | 133

Ukraine was, in my recollection, on the brink of military defeat in the Donbas 2015. The Minsk deception saved the day for the imperialists, much as Poroshenko says that it did.
But perhaps Putin was right and Russia knew that the Empire would step in militarily to prevent the Peoples Republics from secession.
The Ukraine’s armed forces, it might be argued, had suffered a defeat themselves at Maidan where the Ukrainian state had been overwhelmed by imperialist subversion. The only forces available to the coup regime were the hastily organised and openly Nazi militias thrown together by the oligarchs and armed by north Americans.
There was a good reason why Saakashvili was appointed to govern Odessa and oligarchs were appointed to govern the eastern oblasts- Kiev lacked reliable or credible Ukrainian political figures to do its dirty work for it. To an extent it still does and it needs the Georgian Legion, the Poles and NATO mercenary bands to fight for it because few non-Ruthenian Ukrainians will except at gunpoint.
It is not just the Ukrainian armed forces which have been rebuilt since Minsk, so has much of the State apparatus, in concert with the banning of anything redolent of Ukraine’s long history as a Communist society and the ban on the use of the language of the majority.
Ukraine has been remodeled, and the Ukrainians of old have been replaced. Or wiped out in battle.
One thing that nobody has mentioned, in my cursory reading of the thread, is the extent to which the defeat of Hillary Clinton in 2016 necessitated a re-thinking of the Obama/Biden plan for Ukraine. Hillary was meant to take over and carry on with the plan, which very likely included a confrontation with Russia, something that can be inferred from the full blooded russophobia that burst out on her defeat.
In other words, maybe Putin was right to be restrained. Just as he was forced into war in 2022 so it might have been planned to force him into it in 2016.

Posted by: bevin | Dec 10 2022 0:06 utc | 134

I doubt Putin and colleagues have ever believed a word that oozed out of the lying lips of NATO.
When it comes to buying time, that is often the finest art of diplomacy.
Take a bow Putin and Lavrov.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Dec 10 2022 0:07 utc | 135

@Oldhippie 68
And yet the Putin cultists to this day still insist Russia not intervening in 2014 was a 5D chess masterstroke and all of us who have spent the last 8 years saying otherwise are, to quote one of the MENSA candidates on this forum, “idiots” and “trolls”.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Dec 10 2022 0:17 utc | 136

Putin tells it like it is for himself:
“To be honest, it was absolutely unexpected for me. It’s disappointing. Trust almost dropped to 0. How to negotiate? About what? And is it possible to negotiate with them? Where are the guarantees? “

The big problem here is that Putin should have been saying that and standing by it in early 2016 at the very latest. And then he should have acted upon what it meant ever since. He didn’t.
For example he started building Nordstream II and negotiating with the US and the West on all kinds of critical issues. Meanwhile 14,000 people were violently killed in the Donbass, many living in their basements, and Russia was repeatedly screwed over again and again all the way to late 2021 and still today.
Putin declares Russia innocent over the shooting down of MH17. OK, assume that is 100% true for a moment and Putin knows this with absolute certainty.
That happened in July 2014 … WTF was Putin, Lavrov or anyone still engaging with the west on any matters at all after knowingly being falsely accused of such a horrendous crime by the US and the West as whole? What more evidence could they possibly need to comprehend with complete certainty the US/West were untrustworthy liars and criminals of the highest order?
Putin did NOT need to wait until December 2022 to hear Merkel say what she said to realize the hard truths.
Why after 2015 would Russia continue to send a single drop of Oil or Gas to Europe, to Ukraine, or to Germany under such circumstances? It defies belief.
Why would you keep doing “trade deals” with or even be speaking with the United States of America and the West that enables it’s criminal regime? It defies belief.
Why would you keep any national govt assets, gold or cash in Western jurisdictions? Everything Russia has been doing diplomatically with the West since MH17 and the Maidan uprising is indefensible. It defies belief!
When you lay down with dogs you are guaranteed to get up with fleas. Maybe, just maybe, they are not as smart, moral, or ethical as people keep giving them credit for? Let alone all knowing and wise.

Posted by: SeanAU | Dec 10 2022 0:18 utc | 137

1. Putin’s interview that “he trusted the west” means he has admitted he was fooled. In diplomacy you cannot trust anyone. That would be getting emotional. You have to be alert to being stabbed in the back. Russia has a habit of getting stabbed in the back.
If I were Putin i would watch my back now.
2. This means a diplomatic resolution of this issue is now impossible, as bridges are built on trust, and trust once damaged is hard to restore. In this situation i feel it will be impossible to restore. In the medium term we might see the world split into NATO / non-NATO blocks with their own currencies and sanctions systems. In the long term there has to be a showdown between the garden and the jungle.

Posted by: nothing but the trut | Dec 10 2022 0:22 utc | 138

@Bevin 133
Russia stopped Yanukovych from sending in the army to stop the Maidan coup. Russia stopped Yanukovych from going to his eastern and southern political stronghold to rally his supporters. Russia brokered an “agreement” the nazis violated in 24 hours, driving Yanukovych from office. Russia then recognised the Porkyshenko coup regime, went out of its way to limit help to the LDNR military, allowing only enough aid through to stop it losing, and when it began winning stopped it from liberating Mariupol (which even the French media at the time had given up for lost). Putin then forced Minsk II on the LDNR which would have compelled them to live under Ukranazi
rule, demilitarised and with only a limited and set stone future point easily revoked autonomy. Apart from the reintegration of Crimea there is zero evidence that Putin was in any way against the nazis.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Dec 10 2022 0:24 utc | 139

@SeanAU | Dec 10 2022 0:18 utc | 136
Putin (Russia) does not have to do, say, think or act as you, I, or anyone else outside of Russia expects; at any time, and for any reason – Russia is a sovereign entity.
Methinks you are suffering from an “exceptionalist” bug; contact Fauci for the prescribed antidote.

Posted by: nudge | Dec 10 2022 0:33 utc | 140

Nothing new (Poroshenko said the same thing years ago) that we didn’t already know, except that she’s saying the quiet part out loud, and helping ensure that Russia never again trusts anything at all coming from the mouths of western leaders and diplomats.

Posted by: Dennis | Dec 10 2022 0:34 utc | 141

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 9 2022 21:35 utc | 84
Clearly, there are many guilty parties to the crimes in Ukraine. (…) the guilt also devolves to all citizens of NATO nations according to the Nuremburg Protocols.

What do you mean by “Nuremberg Protocols”? As for the rule of collective guilt you mention according to these protocols, please give us the sources.

Posted by: Leuk | Dec 10 2022 0:35 utc | 142

@ Buswapriva Purkavast
You only forgot to mention that the fascist coup took place in Feb. 2014 to coincide with the staging one of Putin’s pet projects, the Sochi Olympiads, meant to win the minds and hearts of his loved Western “partners” (and hopefully BFFs) the U.S. and the NATO gang. Something pretty smart as they correctly guessed that he wouldn’t want to be bothered with such a minute detail as the Nazis recuperating a land that had cost hundreds of thousands of Soviet lives in 1944 and which was also essential for Russian national security while he was showing to the West that he was a swell guy, a team player, someone worth to be admitted to their club also.

Posted by: gatobart | Dec 10 2022 0:42 utc | 143

IMO the RF leadership knew Minsk2 was garbage…..
Posted by: dust | Dec 10 2022 0:02 utc | 131
I disagree with you and others that argue that Putin knew at the time of the signing of Minsk II that it was a pile of garbage. And, as B has argued, I doubt that Markel knew it then either. But I do think the Obama/ Biden administration knew it wasn’t going anywhere if they could help it.
But I think I can pinpoint exactly when President Putin found out. It was during that meeting between Trump, Putin, and Lavrov at the White House where they went into a room without the Western Press where the three had had a long discussion. I would bet you money that Putin made military arms production a priority the moment he returned to Russia.

Posted by: Ed | Dec 10 2022 0:43 utc | 144

@ abrogard | Dec 9 2022 21:49 utc | 87
One of the best posts I’ve read here.

Posted by: John Kennard | Dec 10 2022 0:44 utc | 145

«This means a diplomatic resolution of this issue is now impossible, as bridges are built on trust, and trust once damaged is hard to restore.»
Again, in international politics “trust” is a useless concept, and treaties are built on a continuing balance of concessions from one side with concessions by the other side. When the concessions no longer are balanced, the treaties become pointless.
«In the medium term we might see the world split into NATO / non-NATO blocks with their own currencies and sanctions systems.»
That’s quite sensibly the obvious USA plan: the risk is that there is a single global system the PRC would dominate it with their economic power. The split has to happen as soon as possible to ensure that the PRC sphere of influence is as a small as possible. So the USA position with their vassals is the classic “with us or against us”.
Since the USA government have done many more invasions and regime changes than the PRC (or the RF), and the USA sphere of influence still has the biggest import markets (both the RF and the PRC are primarily export oriented) most governments are choosing “with us”.

Posted by: Blissex | Dec 10 2022 0:45 utc | 146

Posted by: StirThePot | Dec 9 2022 23:53 utc | 126 “the commitment that NATO would not expand one inch eastward”
According to Mikhail Gorbachev that did not happen:
Mikhail Gorbachev
M.G.: The topic of “NATO expansion” was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a singe Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn’t bring it up, either. Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces from the alliance would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement, mentioned in your question, was made in that context. Kohl and [German Vice Chancellor Hans-Dietrich] Genscher talked about it.
https://www.rbth.com/international/2014/10/16/mikhail_gorbachev_i_am_against_all_walls_40673.html

Posted by: Bill Smith | Dec 10 2022 0:47 utc | 147

I don’t have a direct contribution to make here. I just wanted to say that it’s been a pleasure to read the commentary and constructive discussion on this thread.

Posted by: David Levin | Dec 10 2022 0:49 utc | 148

Posted by: Bill Smith | Dec 10 2022 0:47 utc | 146
Now I know you are a troll.

Posted by: Ed | Dec 10 2022 0:51 utc | 149

Why today’s permanent shelling by the “UAF”/Foreign-Polisch/UK etc. PMCs isn’t stopped (e.g. to Donetzk) ?!
The newly regrouped/empowered UKR-Rest-Reserves of their total Ukr-Army available there located seeem to do suicide actions in their dirty cold treches, because have losses of comrades registered beside, last days ca. 250 men/day.
Okay that rules also to RF soldiers, don’t now how the figure on either side.
The more you’ve (soldier) think to loose the more you’ll have mental power to fight (esp. enhanced with drugs, well known at the frontline spent by UAF).
Would that be a good result for ‘Zensursky-Piano-Pisser’ on a new TV-Show ? Think Mr.Z.! should sample some new Electric impulses for “his” land plus “his” civilians and should be very carefully – even having some millions earned by US-abroad saved .. due missing current urrent supply by folks – make new election, than shall see ..
Wait for next .. or to speek on EU-TV .. or simply being removed by US-Gov orders(?) .. think about Mister Cock. – actor Piano-Cock is woring nowadays , PR !
So well, hope the MSM people would wake-up a little due to some unknown facts/opinions read/spoken “we” have posted here acc.to the very Mister Elendski.
Good Forum, thanks.

Posted by: spare_truth | Dec 10 2022 0:53 utc | 150

Posted by: Ed | Dec 10 2022 0:43 utc | 143
Sounds realistic. Just have a hard time believing the RF would trust anyone in the West by that point in time. Just my own opinion though. World and especially the great game is proving to be much more complex than I once thought.

Posted by: dust | Dec 10 2022 0:54 utc | 151

Mistrust and invalidate.

Posted by: Wilikins | Dec 10 2022 0:54 utc | 152

Feast your eyes on Martanov’s latest:
http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2022/12/that-sends-shockwaves.html?m=1

“This strike is also known as “decapitating strike”. Here it is–a warning against the background of a widening gap between Russia and the US in both: hypersonic weapons and air-defense/anti-missile systems where the gap is even more pronounced.”


This reminds me of the (Modi’s party) politician who after the Indian buckaroo tests of May 1998 proclaimed “We are ready to fight…let Pakistan tell us the time and place. After all, why did we make the nuclear bomb? Just to test it?”
Even the highly corrupt and far right wing columnist Tavleen Singh (whose column is up for sale to the highest bidder; she shilled for Enron even as it was collapsing in Amerikastan and she now worships the Ukranazis) reacted thus:
“Yes, you idiot, yes. That is why it’s called a deterrent.”
As it happens, Singh was wrong even on that count. It was no deterrent. The Pakistanis carried out their own tests within weeks, and all it did was make the possibility of low intensity and proxy war much more likely. How?
In 1947 Pakistan sent tribesmen backed by regular troops to seize Kashmir. India responded by sending in regulars, along with its air force, and beat them back from Srinagar. In 1965 Pakistan sent military commandos to start an uprising in Kashmir. India countered by invading Pakistan with its army and advanced to the Icchogil Canal on the outskirts of Lahore. In 1971 Pakistan launched a genocidal crackdown on its own population in what is now Bangladesh. India responded by invading East Pakistan on 22 November and defeated the Pakistanis in 3 weeks.
None of that is possible when there is a likelihood of mutual destruction. Rather the chances of low intensity and proxy war initiated by the weaker party sharply increases because it knows the stronger side doesn’t dare unleash its full potential for fear of its own annihilation. And so, while between 1972 and 1998 there was no major fighting between India and Pakistan – minor skirmishes on the Siachen glacier excepted – in less than a year, in early 1999, the two sides were in a limited but open war started by Pakistani incursions in Kargil.
If as Martyanov avers Amerikastan is the weaker side, draw your own conclusions on the matter.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Dec 10 2022 0:57 utc | 153

b offers his “Nord Stream 2 proof” that Merkel did not intend Minsk II to enable Ukrainian rearmament:

Her answer with regards to Nord Stream 2 makes no sense if she, at the same time that Nord Stream 2 was build, had intentionally prepared Ukraine for war.

But his proof requires ruling out a certain extremely cynical hypothesis:

Germany supported Nord Stream 2 as an expensive decoy.

Europeans sunk $9 billion into Nord Stream 2 and Russia $2 billion. Perhaps the former, or at least Germany, didn’t expect an energy benefit, merely to trick Russia into ignoring Ukraine’s rearmament. How much money is that worth? How much is the present Ukraine war worth to the NATO countries? Perhaps ten Nord Stream 2’s so far, judging by their investments.
Is Merkel capable of such cynical behavior? Isn’t her respect for German business too great? I agree with Bernhard that Merkel isn’t stupid, but we can’t know the morality of politicians.

Posted by: dcouzin | Dec 10 2022 0:57 utc | 154

The CIA had an eaves dropping center in a building near Angela’s office, and they had another one in Frankfort. Angela’s government took virtually no action where they could have expelled the US ambassador. It was hard to have any respect for Angela Merkle after that.

Posted by: nothing but the trut | Dec 10 2022 1:05 utc | 155

@134 uncle tungsten | Dec 10 2022 0:07 utc
I suspect there are shades of belief/disbelief of the west in the Kremlin.
But yes, a deep bow to its timing. The waiting was preparation. The preparation has quite evidently worked, and is working, and will result in victory across all of those shades that the Kremlin debated within itself, and prepared for.
In 2014 Ukraine was a chaotically split country, with the Right Sector nazis at one extreme and at the other, the confused soldiers of the Ukrainian forces who were legitimately unsure to whom they owed their allegiance. And in between, the oligarchs still ruled and plundered the country in every village, field and city.
As Russia knew at the time, every mile west into Ukraine its soldiers would venture, the less they would be seen as liberators and the more as occupiers. That was a key observation in Moscow, as we all realized at the time. People have short memories. Russia has a long memory, and doesn’t cavalierly march into war.
~~
The new Russian weapons of 2018, and the substitution policies that created sanctions immunity, coupled with Putin’s good housekeeping and fiscal prudence, coupled again with the rest of the world shifting the balance of opinion over 8 years, combined also with the decline of the west each year – all of this strengthened the hand of Russia in this play vastly beyond the hand it held 8 years ago, no matter how much weaker the Ukraine may seem in comparison.
In other words, Russia became stronger in the last 8 years vastly beyond the degree to which the Ukraine became stronger. And Minsk may be seen as buying time for Ukraine but the fact is that it bought even more precious time for Russia.
Freezing the conflict was a good move, one which paralyzed the west into barely a proxy fight, a fight for which today the west holds practically no moral high ground to undertake full-on, since the world doesn’t support it – and the west doesn’t have the money; Russia is the wealthier country now.
~~
The fact is that the Kremlin chose a course and held to it, and prepared for it, and today we see it surfacing, like a long-hidden submarine, breaking the surface – for a time – and making moves that are succeeding.
Russia waited until the very minute before the last minute, as the Ukraine prepared its offensive, and then it struck the first, stunning blow. I think Putin now may be speaking out of shades that he personally preferred to occupy, within the Kremlin, but even so, he never failed to deliver the necessary first punch.

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 10 2022 1:05 utc | 156

Bill Smith @# 146
Bill, Bill, Bill. Do you know what “Russian Beyond” is? It is a CIA/NED sponsored anti-Putin propaganda site. Of the documentation that proves that Gorbachev was promised (it is in funking archives for God’s sake) that there would be no expansion of NATO eastward.
For decades the pretense has been maintained that there is some doubt as to whether the United States really promised Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev that if Germany reunited, then NATO would not expand eastward. The National Security Archive has put such doubts to rest at least until the de-neutering of the internet succeeds.
On January 31, 1990, West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher made a major public speech in which, according to the U.S. Embassy in Bonn, he made clear “that the changes in Eastern Europe and the German unification process must not lead to an ‘impairment of Soviet security interests.’ Therefore, NATO should rule out an ‘expansion of its territory towards the east, i.e. moving it closer to the Soviet borders.’”
On February 10, 1990, Gorbachev met in Moscow with West German leader Helmut Kohl and gave Soviet assent, in principle, to German unification in NATO, as long as NATO did not expand to the east.
U.S. Secretary of State James Baker said that NATO would not expand eastward when he met with Soviet Foreign Minister Eduard Shevardnadze on February 9, 1990, and when he met with Gorbachev the same day. Baker told Gorbachev three times that NATO would not expand one inch eastward. Baker agreed with Gorbachev’s statement that “NATO expansion is unacceptable.” Baker told Gorbachev that “if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction.”
People like to say that Gorbachev should have gotten this in writing.
He did, in the form of the transcript of this meeting.
Baker wrote to Helmut Kohl who would meet with Gorbachev the next day, February 10, 1990: “And then I put the following question to him. Would you prefer to see a united Germany outside of NATO, independent and with no U.S. forces or would you prefer a unified Germany to be tied to NATO, with assurances that NATO’s jurisdiction would not shift one inch eastward from its present position? He answered that the Soviet leadership was giving real thought to all such options [….] He then added, ‘Certainly any extension of the zone of NATO would be unacceptable.’” Baker added in parentheses, for Kohl’s benefit, “By implication, NATO in its current zone might be acceptable.”
Kohl told Gorbachev on February 10, 1990: “We believe that NATO should not expand the sphere of its activity.”
NATO secretary-general Manfred Woerner, in July 1991, told Supreme Soviet deputies “That the NATO Council and he are against the expansion of NATO.”
The message seems to have been consistent and repetitive and completely dishonest. Gorbachev should have gotten it in marble 100-feet high. Maybe that would have worked.
https://freepress.org/article/gorbachev-was-promised-no-nato-expansion
If you’re going to read propaganda, at least read honest propaganda.

Posted by: Ed | Dec 10 2022 1:08 utc | 157

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 9 2022 18:00 utc | 2
Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 9 2022 19:25 utc | 43
Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 9 2022 21:02 utc | 70
Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 9 2022 21:35 utc | 84
So much indignation in those words. But we all know what speaks louder than works.
The UN Resolution 2202 (not 2022) was just words too.
It seems the world is far along on a path of prolonged kinetic action. So shout away, if enough like you do it it might power a small windmill.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Dec 10 2022 1:20 utc | 158

The CIA had an eaves dropping center in a building near Angela’s office, and they had another one in Frankfort. Angela’s government took virtually no action where they could have expelled the US ambassador. It was hard to have any respect for Angela Merkle after that.
IIRC the journalist who broke this news was prosecuted by Denmark for releasing state secrets.
It should be clear by now what the EU is, and who it works for.
Posted by: nothing but the truth | Dec 10 2022 1:05 utc | 154
——————————————————————–
Yes, it was Wikileaks that exposed that CIA operation, Julian Assange is paying a heavy price for it. Hillary Clinton is a viscous bitch.

Posted by: Ed | Dec 10 2022 1:25 utc | 159

Regardless of her reasons for speaking, it’s a very strange thing to say. She’s an astute political operator so she must have known the implications of her saying what she said and how she said it. And that there was no reason she had to say it. It is nothing short of a screaming admission that Russia was right all along and that will have serious implications for German foreign relations.
She may as well have said, “you know, Putin is correct. We are not agreement capable. It’s just who we are.” But then to survive without Russian energy Germany is going to need many more partners and they’ve all heard a renowned German leader say that Germany can’t be trusted. Not to mention that in non-western public opinion she just gave Putin a huge victory in the information war.

Posted by: Lex | Dec 10 2022 1:36 utc | 160

@Biswapriya Purkayast 138
Your list is missing the murder of Givi, Motorola and Zakharchenko, who might not have been satisfied with the rotten compromise of Minsk 2 in the long run, respectively with the fact that Ukraine did not comply, invaded the demilitarized zone and placed heavy weapons there.
It is difficult to judge whether Merkel still had her own thoughts when Minsk 2 was concluded or whether she was already completely controlled by her masters from the United States. In any case, sanctions were regularly raining down on Russia. Because of non-compliance with Minsk 2, although Russia was not a party to the agreement.
The media took over the presentation, the people believed it. Just as they believe today that they are freezing because of Putin’s energy war and not because natural gas, coal and oil are sanctioned.

Posted by: Uwe | Dec 10 2022 1:40 utc | 161

Much deeper analysis from M. K. Bhadrakumar
President Putin has repeatedly argued that Russia was left with no option but to react as the US/NATO “mission creep” began slouching toward its west borders. This is also the reason why Russia cannot afford to leave an anti-Russian Ukraine as its neighbour. If the proxy war continues, Russia will reduce Ukraine to a rump state.
And that is where trouble, big trouble, lies ahead. It is apparent that Polish nationalist elements who have been in deep slumber are waking up to ponder how to return their so-called historical territories that were taken away by Joseph Stalin after the Second World War and merged with Soviet Ukraine.
On the other hand, German revanchism is also apparent. Chancellor Olaf Scholz wrote an essay last week in Foreign Affairs where he underscored the new “mindset” in Berlin — as he put it — against the backdrop of the “epochal tectonic shift” toward “this new multipolar world, [as] different countries and models of government are competing for power and influence.”
Germany senses that its hour has come once again to lead in Mitteleuropa — German term for Central Europe. The Prussian vision of Mitteleuropa was a pan-Germanist state-centric imperium, an idea that was later adopted in a modified form by Nazi geopoliticians. The Mitteleuropa plan was to achieve an economic and cultural hegemony over Central Europe and subsequent economic and financial exploitation of this region, making of puppet states as a buffer between Germany and Russia.
https://www.indianpunchline.com/italy-distances-from-cancellation-of-russia/

Posted by: daffyDuct | Dec 10 2022 1:51 utc | 162

Too bad, too sad, Euro-losers. The ever duplicitous snake-minded USSA is gonna steal all the Euro-loser industry. We did blow up your Northstream lifeline, and now we are gonna collect all your industry for bargain basement prices. ‘Cause that’s just how we roll. Always. So long, suckers.

Posted by: blues | Dec 10 2022 1:59 utc | 163

@ cdvision | Dec 9 2022 18:04 utc | 4
See: Russian ‘Military Reforms 2008’, commencing ongoing full effect effect from 2009 thru 2010, post Georgian coup & US/NATO use of proxy Georgia to attack Russia & South Ossetia, Russian-Georgia War 2008, post attempted accession of Georgia & Ukraine into NATO.

Posted by: Outraged | Dec 10 2022 2:05 utc | 164

Sorry, never had a soft spot for Mutti Merkel though she was raised in the DDR (a plus usually). They way she acted it looked more that she herself had installed the NSA software, to always be on call by base – Langley. Her legacy was a crippled Germany and a EU vassal colony.

Posted by: Antonym | Dec 10 2022 2:15 utc | 165

@ bevin | Dec 9 2022 18:19 utc | 12
@ psychohistorian | Dec 9 2022 18:32 utc | 19
@ Tom_12 | Dec 9 2022 18:44 utc | 23
Indeed. Non sovereign vassals do NOT have independence of action & can independently guarantee absolutely … nothing.
Especially so in Ersatz ‘State’ of Germany, militarily occupied & whose ‘State’ Security & Intelligence services have been owned & directly subordinated to OSS/CIA/US since VE Day May 8 ’45.

Posted by: Outraged | Dec 10 2022 2:15 utc | 166

giving the slightest credence to what any western politician – especially a venal neoliberal middle manager like obama or merkel – says is like taking “pronouns” seriously. i have better things to do than indulge lies, delusions and gaslighting. it’s what they do that’s worth attention in most cases.
it’s also a waste of time discussing anything done in the “EU” as if it was done with agency as opposed to following its “master’s voice”. that’s why all the pearl clutching about “brexit” was hilarious to watch: “oh nooooo…the brits is leaving the thing where we take orders from the country outside the thing!!!!!!”
it was always done to buy time. the ukies could barely manage to show self control for that part of it and continued to shell the donbass. that’s why the whole “if only boris johnson ALL BY HIMSELF hadn’t convinced the ukies to keep getting cauldroned and losing ground!” theory is dopey; when have the death cult banderatards running shit EVER shown they’re willing to negotiate? oh, right…when zelensky said he wanted to during an election. jesus christ.

Posted by: the pair | Dec 10 2022 2:18 utc | 167

The west never, ever intended for any peace in Ukraine.
The last soon to be 9 years shows precisely that. You know there is a saying – “If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck”.
The better question is why exactly she is spilling the beans. And whether on her own (unlikely) or by some entity’s orders or by some larger group’s agreement.

Posted by: mspl | Dec 10 2022 2:18 utc | 168

Posted by: SeanAU | Dec 10 2022 0:18 utc | 136
“The big problem here is that Putin should have been saying that and standing by it in early 2016 at the very latest. And then he should have acted upon what it meant ever since. He didn’t.”
SeanAU, you should be smarter than this to be a troll.
Why would Putin give up Trump for providing Putin and Lavrov about the Minsk II?
“For example, he started building Nordstream II and negotiating with the US and the West on all kinds of critical issues. Meanwhile 14,000 people were violently killed in the Donbass, many living in their basements, and Russia was repeatedly screwed over again and again all the way to late 2021 and still today.”
So, you think Putin should have gone to war unprepared? Not so bright, are you?
“Putin declares Russia innocent over the shooting down of MH17. OK, assume that is 100% true for a moment and Putin knows this with absolute certainty.”
Either way you look at it, Russia did not fire that missile at flight MH17. Either Ukraine Nazis did, or the DPR fighters defending themselves from the Ukraine Nazis did it by accident. So, fuck you!
“That happened in July 2014 … WTF was Putin, Lavrov or anyone still engaging with the west on any matters at all after knowingly being falsely accused of such a horrendous crime by the US and the West as whole? What more evidence could they possibly need to comprehend with complete certainty that the US/West were untrustworthy liars and criminals of the highest order?”
Gee, I seem to remember something about Russian taking control of Crimea and holding an election? Did I miss something? Also, Russia provided the DPR and the LPR resistance with protective support while allowing volunteers to go the Donbas with small arms weapons and tanks and missiles. Also, a great deal of humanitarian aid for the fighters and their families. Over 3 hundred thousand passports were given to civilians who were caught in the crossfire between the Nazis and the DPR / LPR. Is that good enough for you?
“Why after 2015 would Russia continue to send a single drop of Oil or Gas to Europe, to Ukraine, or to Germany under such circumstances? It defies belief. Why would you keep doing “trade deals” with or even be speaking with the United States of America and the West that enables its criminal regime? It defies belief.”
Because Russia had a contract to provide oil and gas to Germany and the EU. This means that the collective west (including the US) was paying for all those missiles that are making the Nazi’s life miserable today, fool.
“Why would you keep any national govt assets, gold or cash in Western jurisdictions? Everything Russia has been doing diplomatically with the West since MH17 and the Maidan uprising is indefensible. It defies belief!”
Believe it or not, when the collective west decided to confiscate Russia’s assets in the US and Europe, they totally fucked themselves. “It defies belief” that the collective west could be so stupid. They can never be trusted again by any country in the world that dosen’s want to stick their nose up the collective west’s arse.
Also, it looks like only 100 billion of the 300 hundred billion was confiscated. Apparently either the US stole 200 B, or Russia was working to get it out and were meeting resistance.
“When you lay down with dogs you are guaranteed to get up with fleas. Maybe, just maybe, they are not as smart, moral, or ethical as people keep giving them credit for? Let alone all knowing and wise.”
True, and this lesson applies also to dogs that lie down with CIA Trolls.

Posted by: ED | Dec 10 2022 2:20 utc | 169

@ jpc | Dec 9 2022 19:39 utc | 46
@ xor | Dec 9 2022 20:04 utc | 54
@ rjb1.5 | Dec 9 2022 20:45 utc | 63
Vassal is as vassal does.
@ just somebody | Dec 9 2022 19:33 utc | 45
FUD/Conspiracy insanity/inanity.

Posted by: Outraged | Dec 10 2022 2:26 utc | 170

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again
Above Posted by: SeanAU | Dec 9 2022 23:30 utc | 118
In your case I’m beginning to suspect that the definition of insanity is SAYING the same thing over and over again.

Posted by: StirThePot | Dec 10 2022 2:29 utc | 171

Elmer Fudd @97–
One problem: Clinton didn’t become president until 1993. The New World Order was announced by DCI GHW Bush, and NATO’s move to the East was planned by him and his spooks. Other things happened during Clinton’s admin, but GHW Bush and those that came before him and his crew are the ones responsible for the current crisis.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 10 2022 2:30 utc | 172

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 10 2022 1:05 utc | 155
Well said, very well said.

Posted by: Ed | Dec 10 2022 2:31 utc | 173

Missing in the discussion is the not-so-subtle nuance that in 2014-15+ both the DPR and LPR wanted total independence from Kiev. They also did not want to become part of Russia, just sovereign states.
I think part of Russia’s strategy was to let them experience the consequences on that choice.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Dec 10 2022 2:31 utc | 174

Sam F @104–
Thanks for catching my error. UNSCR 2202.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 10 2022 2:32 utc | 175

B, If what you say about Merkel is correct, why did she not make one single attempt to force the UKR to implement the Minsk agreements, which she was bound to do as co-guarantor?
“We read your emails, we listen to your phone calls, we know everything about you. We OWN you . . . just do your job and do as we say.” — Your best buds in the CIA

Posted by: pasha | Dec 10 2022 2:32 utc | 176

The bottom line is Russia is severed from Europe with some permanence and is repositioning East and South with its resources. Sure Russia took a great deal of crap over the previous decades and backpedaled making a stand in only a few key areas.
They were in a weak position when the Warsaw Pact fell. I am sure planners in the Kremlin knew the vacuum created would be filled by the West. I watch Russia back peddle and get its teeth kicked in for decades after the fall. One classic operation after another was run against them.
The west was approaching the gates of Moscow. The Russians prepared, they acted. They will continue to act. “It will be a long process” to quote Putin.
They will move on the grand chessboard as they have now started to play. The pawns in the Ukraine are the front line. The object of the game is to checkmate the king. The opposition pieces on the board have not moved their more important pieces, only their pawns are in play.
Merkel is one of the queens of the death cult. There are many others. She is well trained in its practices. The whole system if saturated with people like her. The line is endless.
What does one say after watching endless war, chaos, murder, mayhem, and pillage of resources in the hands of this clique?

Posted by: circumspect | Dec 10 2022 2:44 utc | 177

@ abrogard | Dec 9 2022 21:49 utc | 87
Great comment: thoughtful, insightful, and eloquent. What I come here to look for. Thanks!

Posted by: Clever Dog | Dec 10 2022 2:44 utc | 178

Posted by: Uwe | Dec 10 2022 1:40 utc | 160
Not new: Politicians always change their mind as it is for their $-income or a most powerful position, or due to their willingless incompetence behaviour.
(latter e.g. for the Ha&BBoecks/GER)
Today we’ll speek to some other more experienced persons (e.g. Xi, Putin etc.), to get an answer for resolving individual problems worldwide with them. Hence, USA has no open ear from everywhere, except for its own $-Income strategy. EU must learn a lot more now, though vdLeien has 100% fulfilled the Soros-School demands backed her.

Posted by: spare_truth | Dec 10 2022 2:46 utc | 179

@ uncle tungsten | Dec 10 2022 0:07 utc | 134
When it comes to buying time, that is often the finest art of diplomacy.
Take a bow Putin and Lavrov.

^ Truth ^.
@ Grieved | Dec 10 2022 1:05 utc | 155
Precisely so.
@ Sean_UA | Dec 9 2022 23:30 utc | 118
@ Sean_UA | Dec 10 2022 2:16 utc | 166
@ Bill Smith | Dec 10 2022 0:47 utc | 146
Troll.
@ Opport Knocks | Dec 10 2022 1:20 utc | 157
Yawn.
@ Leuk | Dec 10 2022 0:35 utc | 141
Use the Farce Leuk! look it up.

Posted by: Outraged | Dec 10 2022 2:46 utc | 180

There are times I wish this was an actual physical place where all face all. Yes, most likely a brawl would ensue. This thread more than others has served to expose those amongst us who are Anti-Humans and contemptuous to the point where they deserve shunning. Fortunately, nobody escapes death, and I take solace in that small comfort.

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 10 2022 2:47 utc | 181

Germany’s stance on Syria was that jihadist terror would not be called off until Assad’s complete capitulation. Assad was , like Iraq, Iran, Egypt and Libya ‘s dictators wholly owned, bought paid for, and operating USUKIS policies. He was their nastiest torturer.
The Usukis dogs were only called off in Syria because Putin destroyed Hillary Clinton’s oncrete bunkers housing Al Qaida terrorists. Hence , Merkel’s intentions are clear from Syria, to participate and assist in the Usukis Crusade against Islamic power in the Middle East, to give the false impression of Christian charity by housing millions of refugees, and to deal with the influx of Islam into Europe with NeoNazism from Ukraine. The Muslim immigrants into Europe are the intended targets of Nro-Nazism , instead of Jews. In fact the Jews are running the Neo- Nazis .
People forget that since Yugoslavia USUKIS has been using takfiri Muslims inspired by Uthama bin Laden against Muslims that he considered, ( who he to decide? ) not proper Muslims. The main enemy if Muslims for 50 years has been this rogue sect funded by Saudi Arabia, Ukraine is part of this Crusade the mopping up part, in which USUKIS Salafist puppets are supposed to be installed in power on the seats of the CIA Dictators. When the people get fed up with these Saudi perverts, Western- trained leaders, trained in Oxford and Cambridge will be shoe-horned into power.
Angela Merkel is no more than a smoothly engineered oily cog in the machine of Western Crusades against Islam. She will be believed by Crusader sympathisers and disbelieved by Crusader haters like Vladimir Putin.
In short, the purpose of denying Rusdian energy to Europe is to create UNREST which can be fanned into RACISM against immigrant Muslims, using Nazism as a slogan for anti-Muslim bigotry.
It’s a gamble doomed to fail.

Posted by: Giyane | Dec 10 2022 2:57 utc | 182

Oh please, that was not the issue: if it was Osama who did 9.11, his very clearly stated reason was the desecration of the holy expanse of Arabia with corporate offices and military bases full of infidels (never mind the koranic obligation to accept and also protect those infidels if they are “people of the book”).
Posted by: Blissex | Dec 9 2022 23:36 utc | 120
You seem confused. The knee-jerk macho Internet babble was occurring mere days after 9/11, when the administration was throwing out accusations right and left about who was responsible let alone what their reasons were (bin Laden had been mounting attacks on U.S. facilities elsewhere for years already for other reasons such as our support for Israel’s depredations against the Palestinians and for all I know our coup in Iran in 1954 to restore the Shah to the throne). Also it was months later, AFTER the invasion of Afghanistan was already underway (and Bush had dismissed the offer from the Taliban to turn bin Laden over for trial in a neutral country if the U.S. provided reasonable evidence of his guilt) before actual evidence turned up.

Posted by: StirThePot | Dec 10 2022 2:57 utc | 183

@ karlof1 | Dec 10 2022 2:47 utc | 184
Very true. They are ever more desperate & aggressive.
Suggest taking the ongoing fabricated personal attacks as unintended, yet deserved, compliment & mark of respect.
Peace.
Still Steel.

Posted by: Outraged | Dec 10 2022 2:58 utc | 184

I accept Bernard’s analysis but concerning Chamberlain he was just a part of Britains clever manipulation to save Hitler from his own Generals.
They begged Britain to be firm against Hitler which, logically, means they wanted them to threaten Hitler with a twofront war should he continue his war plans.
Germany, in the view of the generals, was not ready for that and they feared being hanged for treason, should it become a debacle.
And this war was what the British elites and had been planning for with the background of Mackinder’s analysis. Germany was to fight the Soviets. With Hitler out of the picture and more traditional and less adventurous german leaders Britains plans would have been ruined. The risk for a pragmatic german stand towards Stalin would have increased.
None of those British figures were what they appeared to be.

Posted by: petergrfstrm | Dec 10 2022 3:04 utc | 185

M.K.Bhadrakumar sums up the situation in his column today. And he does it well. He believes that the Russians understood from the beginning where the US was going, and that the US did not. He also notes the awakening of the Polish dream for its old imperial borders, which include most of Ukraine, while the Germans are recalling their old eastern borders..And the Poles are also making new demands for reparations from Germany.
A likely result is the end of NATO and the EU:
“…Scholz has opened a Pandora’s box. The ghosts of German history are returning — and the profound question in European history: Where are the borders of Germany?
“Poland announced in October that it wants to start negotiations with Germany on reparations during World War II, and Polish foreign ministry sent an official note to Berlin demanding around €1.3 trillion in damages to address the effects of Nazi Germany’s occupation of Poland from 1939 to 1945.
“To be sure, an assertive Germany will be a matter of disquiet for west Europe, especially France and Italy.
“Interestingly, the new season at the La Scala theatre in the Italian city of Milan opened on Thursday with premiere of Modest Mussorgsky’s opera Boris Godunov, with the title role performed by prominent Russian opera singer Ildar Abdrazakov. Italian president Sergio Mattarella, Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni and Italy’s high society, including politicians, businessmen, actors, directors, fashion designers and architects, attended the Russian opera.
“Italy is marking distance from the Russophobic narrative in Europe. Again, French President Emmanuel Macron said on Sunday that the West should consider how to address Russia’s need for security guarantees.”
https://www.indianpunchline.com/italy-distances-from-cancellation-of-russia/

Posted by: bevin | Dec 10 2022 3:11 utc | 186

You only forgot to mention that the fascist coup took place in Feb. 2014 to coincide with the staging one of Putin’s pet projects, the Sochi Olympiads, meant to win the minds and hearts of his loved Western “partners” (and hopefully BFFs) the U.S. and the NATO gang. Something pretty smart as they correctly guessed that he wouldn’t want to be bothered with such a minute detail as the Nazis recuperating a land that had cost hundreds of thousands of Soviet lives in 1944 and which was also essential for Russian national security while he was showing to the West that he was a swell guy, a team player, someone worth to be admitted to their club also.
Posted by: gatobart | Dec 10 2022 0:42 utc | 142
Well they did it to China too, in 2022. Just goes to show no good deed goes unpunished.

Posted by: Ed | Dec 10 2022 3:12 utc | 187

Please check out when 1st Guards Tank Army revived (2014 november). Is it the action of fooled person?
https://patrickarmstrong.ca/2016/04/10/russia-prepares-for-a-big-war-the-significance-of-a-tank-army/

Posted by: oldsalt | Dec 10 2022 3:17 utc | 188

Kiev, West provocatively call on Georgia to open second front against Russia
In the current circumstances, the matter of developing a legally binding agreement on non-use of force with Georgia and delimitation and demarcation of borders, promoted by Moscow, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, become a priority, head of the Russian Foreign Ministry’s Fourth CIS Department Denis Gonchar said
MOSCOW, December 10. /TASS/. Provocative calls for Georgia to open a “second front” against Russia come from Kiev and certain Western countries, which make the imperativeness of regular contacts between Georgia, Abkhazia and South Ossetia obvious, says head of the Russian Foreign Ministry’s Fourth CIS Department Denis Gonchar.
Speaking in an interview for TASS about the relevance of the Geneva discussions on Transcaucasia, Gonchar noted that Moscow considers them increasingly necessary in the changing geopolitical situation.
…

Posted by: Outraged | Dec 10 2022 3:22 utc | 189

@ oldsalt | Dec 10 2022 3:17 utc | 191
Elite Heavy Tank & Mech Rifle Divisions Combined Arms Army, numerous reports/indicators has been on alert, deployed just inside SE Belarus borders since SMO commenced.

Posted by: Outraged | Dec 10 2022 3:32 utc | 190

[154]
There was one on roof of British Embassy in Berlin. Merkel failed to use encrypted mobile as required just as British Ministers use private Email accounts just like Blair to circumvent government servers
In Wiesbaden not Frankfurt NSA runs a Facility built by US contractors inside Clay Kaserne.
Most US military in Germany are SIGINT
None of it matters since US goal was to leave Europe destabilised and burning on its frontiers through mass immigration from Africaa d Mid East. Putin is adding population movement from Ukralne to the mix
Europe will smoulder for decades and be stagnant

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Dec 10 2022 3:45 utc | 191

This with Merkel is a non-event. It’s just some new twist on the PR campaign.
The theater remains first the U.S. trying to take over Russia for entertainment, it evolved to the U.S. trying to win to keep the lid on all the corruption, then to trying to save it’s hegemony, now the U.S. is struggling for it’s existence. I’d say the U.S. doesn’t know what they’re doing.
With Merkel, she and the entire EU are no match for Russia and so are not relevant. This latest only has something to do with how the U.S. is posturing for the next escalation.

Posted by: Swamprat | Dec 10 2022 3:45 utc | 192

Bevin
You do not know Germany. Those borders are set in stone by 2+4 Treaty
Germany will never be a military power – unless it becomes Muslim. Demographics are against it and Germany has manpower shortages in every walk of life today. It cannot even man buses because of a lack of Class C drivers
It takes 6 months to get a specialist doctor appointment
There has been no increase in defence still ending yet budget deficit is 4.5% GDP
Germany is big talk no action

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Dec 10 2022 3:52 utc | 193

I agree with b, Merkel is pretending this was what she planned just like she only pretended to build Nordstream2. Inki.

Posted by: Inki | Dec 10 2022 3:57 utc | 194

[188]
And your take on Rapallo is what ?
And the military cooperation between German Reich and USSR 1919-1933 ?

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Dec 10 2022 3:57 utc | 195

Posted by: Ed | Dec 9 2022 22:36 utc | 94
«the US could have abided by the 1991 promise made by the George H.W. Bush administration to keep NATO away from Russia’s border. The US could have negotiated a security agreement with the Russians — as they have regularly requested over the last three decades. The US could have made Ukraine abide by the Minsk Accord(s) to which the Ukrainians and Russians had in principle agreed.»
Again: in exchange of what? What was the USA government going to get from the RF for all these huge concessions? In international negotiations concessions don’t come for free, “just because” does not work.
Posted by: Blissex | Dec 9 2022 23:20 utc | 116
———————————————————
As John Mearsheimer (JM) pointed out on several occasions, Russia could have been a geostrategic partner with the US and the west. In fact, Russian could have been a counterbalance to China (who is a pier competitor with the US), and according to JM, Putin was befuddled that the US didn’t see the advantage of this opportunity.
In fact, I will turn your proposition on its head. Russia has a vast amount of resources besides oil and gas to offer the western world, such as Platinum, Palladium, Titanium, and Uranium. Also, there is a large forest for lumber and much more. Russia as a market is also nothing to sneeze at either. In other words, there was plenty to offer.
I think the problem is that Biden made bad choices because he is an old bastard whose whole political career was founded on anti-Russian cold war ideas. He is a neo-con through and through, just like the neo-cons who took over the national security policy establishment under another old bastard, Ronald Reagan. These people could never rise above their cold war prejudices, and they remained embedded in the Pentagon and the State Department right through Bush-Chaney administration and the Obama administration as well, in large part because Obama did not have the balls, or the aptitude to flush these turds out of the national security and policy making hierarchy.
The result is that Russia and China are now bosom buddies due to blind arrogance of Biden and his neo-con soul mates: The oil and gas companies and the MIC didn’t help much either.

Posted by: Ed | Dec 10 2022 3:58 utc | 196

Posted by: SeanAU | Dec 10 2022 3:49 utc | 197
Can’t disagree with all that. Fan of Caitlin for sure.
ps piece of advice. brevity is the soul of wit said some guy smarter than me.

Posted by: dust | Dec 10 2022 3:59 utc | 197

I think the posters here let their emotions sway them to the opinion that the U.S. is weaker and Russia is stronger that both are in reality. In truth the U.S. is much, much stronger, though only moderately stronger militarily. But Russia is strong enough. And that’s what the U.S. fears. But that’s the only thing it fears.

Posted by: Dougie | Dec 10 2022 4:01 utc | 198

About Concern Trolls…. overly emotional opinionated hypocrites in general
Pointing out (faux alleged) hypocrisy is important not because (faux alleged) hypocrisy is an especially terrible thing in and of itself, but because it draws attention to the fact that the (projecting) hypocrite does not really stand where they claim to stand and value what they purport to value.
by Caitlin Johnstone

See

Posted by: Outraged | Dec 10 2022 4:09 utc | 199

Ed | Dec 10 2022 0:43 utc | 143
“…meeting between Trump, Putin, and Lavrov at the White House “……
NEVER happened. Putin and Trump met in Helsinki.
Lavrov and Sergey Kislyak (Russian ambassador to US) met with Trump in White House.
Putin. No.
@bar will correct me… but Putin has not visited the U$ in a decade..

Posted by: Melaleuca | Dec 10 2022 4:14 utc | 200