Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 14, 2022
U.S.-Russian Intelligence Chiefs Discuss Ukraine

Earlier today the Russian news outlet Kommersant reported on U.S.-Russian negotiations in Turkey (machine translation):

As it became known to "Kommersant", today, November 14, negotiations between the Russian and American delegations are taking place in Ankara, the capital of Turkey. Director of the Foreign Intelligence Service Sergei Naryshkin flew to Ankara from the Russian side.

This meeting has not been publicly announced before. The source has so far declined to provide details of the talks.

Press Secretary of the President of Russia Dmitry Peskov said that he could neither confirm nor deny the information about the talks in Ankara.

The last time the Russian and American delegations met in Geneva was on January 10 for talks on security guarantees. The lack of practical results of the January negotiation process is often seen as a diplomatic prerequisite for the outbreak of hostilities in Ukraine.

The U.S. counterpart of Sergei Naryshkin is CIA director Bill Burns.

The negotiations have long been requested by Russia:

In the last month, the volley of calls for negotiation from Putin has intensified. On September 30, Putin called on Kiev “to return back to the negotiating table.” On October 11, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said  Russia "was willing to engage with the United States or with Turkey on ways to end the war." Two days later, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said that Moscow is “open to negotiations to achieve our objectives." On October 26, Putin sent a message to Zelensky through President Umaro Mokhtar Sissoco Embalo of Guinea Bissau, saying that “He wishes and thinks that a direct dialogue should happen between your two countries.” On October 30, Lavrov said that Russia is “ready to listen to our Western colleagues if they make another request to organize a conversation" as long as Russia’s security needs were considered. And on November 1, Putin said that “necessary conditions” could arise that would be a catalyst to talks.

On the U.S. side only one voice had recently publicly urged to start negotiations:

Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. According to US officials, Milley “has made the case in internal meetings that the Ukrainians have achieved about as much as they could reasonably expect on the battlefield before winter sets in and so they should try to cement their gains at the bargaining table.”

The top US general has made no secret of his stance. “When there’s an opportunity to negotiate, when peace can be achieved, seize it,” Milley declared in a public speech this week.

At the end of last week the Wall Street Journal reported that more members of the Biden administration agreed with that position:

As Ukraine Retakes Kherson, U.S. Looks to Diplomacy Before Winter Slows Momentum
American arms are flowing, but officials in Washington question how much territory either side can win Ukrainian cities including Kyiv have turned off streetlights to conserve energy after Russian attacks on power plants.

Senior U.S. officials have begun nudging Kyiv to start thinking about peace talks in the event winter stalls its momentum, following Ukraine’s recapture of Kherson in one of its most stunning triumphs of the war.

The imminent onset of winter—coupled with fears of inflation spurred by mounting energy and food prices, the billions of dollars of weaponry already pumped into Ukraine, and the tens of thousands of casualties on both sides—has prompted talk in Washington of a potential inflection point in the war, now in its ninth month.

Fact is that the 'west' is running short of ammunition it can deliver to Ukraine. That is why the U.S. is buying 100,000 rounds of 155mm artillery ammunition from South Korea:

“Negotiations are ongoing between the US and Korean companies to export ammunition, in order to make up for the shortage of 155mm ammunition inventories in the US,” the ministry said. The Pentagon said in a statement it has been “in discussion” about “potential sales” of ammunition by the US from South Korea.

But statements from South Korea and the US make clear that the deal, which has been in the works for months, has not yet been finalized. The purchase of such a large supply of artillery ammunition is highly sensitive for South Korea, especially given the recent missile launches and weapon tests conducted by North Korea.

To call 100,000 artillery rounds a 'large supply' is a joke. It is less than what the Russian army expenses in two days.

The 'west' currently no longer has the industrial capacity to make the products that are needed in a long high intensity war. It could rebuild that capacity but that would require a huge amount of money and long term commitments to buy significant amounts of such products.

Without a steady resupply of huge amounts of ammunition the Ukrainian army is done.

The Biden administration has now confirmed that CIA head Burns has met with Naryshkin. But it is lying about the content of the talks:

William J. Burns, the director of the Central Intelligence Agency, met with his Russian counterpart in Turkey on Monday to warn Russia against the use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine, a White House spokesman said.

The National Security Council said Mr. Burns’s meeting in Ankara was not in any way meant to negotiate or to discuss any settlement of the war in Ukraine. Ukraine was briefed in advance on the trip, the spokesman said.

President Biden has insisted that Ukraine, and not the United States, will dictate if and when negotiations commence to end the war.

Russia has not threatened to use nuclear weapons. There is no reason for it to do so and many good reason to refrain from using them. It would foremost alienate China and other Russian allies.  It was in fact the U.S. which planted nuclear scare stories in another of its attempts to smear Russia. The U.S. of course knows that there is no danger that Russia would use nukes and it is likely that Burns did not even mention them.

There are enough other problems. The electricity situation in Ukraine is getting worse as the weather gets colder. Some 40% to 50% of the 330 kilovolt network is down and more of it will fail.

What the U.S. needs is more time for Ukraine to repair damage and for the production and delivery of more weapons and ammunition. It needs a pause in the war. It may well hope for a kind of ceasefire during the winter. It is highly likely that Burns went to Ankara to talk about that.

Sure, the Biden administration has no interest in ending the war. It is setting up a headquarter in Germany where a three star general and his headquarter staff will direct the U.S. efforts in its, for now, proxy war against Russia. The claim is that the new command will be responsible for supplying Ukraine. That is unlikely to be true:

The Pentagon puts a 3 Stars General in Charge of War Operations — not Inventory. And you do not need a Headquarters Staff of 300 to do an Audit. It’s a War Headquarters Staff. We are going to war against Russia unless the American People can figure out some way to stop it!

The headquarter means that the U.S. is planing for a very long and bigger war.

NATO General Secretary Jens Stoltenberg has said that a Russian victory in the conflict in Ukraine would be a defeat for NATO and that it can not allow such an outcome.

If you can not allow something to happen that is already mostly assured you will have to do something very serious to prevent that outcome. NATO is not united enough to go to war. But the chances for a direct conflict are growing by the day. It will be left to U.S. and some east European countries to send their own troops into Ukraine.

The U.S. public is not yet ready for such a step and it will take more time to get to that point.

It is another reason why the U.S. would like to pause the war for now. But Russia is unlikely to fall for such a scam. A ceasefire would allow the Ukrainian military to regain some strength and to build up more defensive lines.

After its mobilization of reservists in September Russia will soon have the forces available that are necessary to breach the Ukrainian front lines to then storm through and attack deep behind those lines. As soon as the ground freezes it will be ready to go. Any pause now would make a later move more difficult.

There will be no ceasefire now but the talks are good anyway. Both sides should do there best to keep them going.

Russia has asked for a lot: a pullback of NATO to its 1997 position, four parts of Ukraine to become parts of Russia, a guarantee that Ukraine will never join NATO. The U.S. is certainly not willing to commit to those steps – at least not yet.

It will need time and many more talks for the U.S. to come to its senses and to make the necessary concessions to end the conflict.

It will also require the defeat of the Ukrainian military, and anyone who joins it, on the battle field. Russia can do that if it concentrates on that  effort.

Comments

Gt Stroller @ 70

How much UAF AD is there between Zaporizhe and Melitopol? Could be a bit of an issue for them.

I didn’t imply it would be easy, or possible, just the goal. As for possible, the Pentagon is using Stalin’s tactics to get to Berlin, throw men into the grinder till you get to Melitopol. As long as the Ukrainians, Polish, NATO, Nazi, whatever, forces are willing to line up for the grinder you can’t really deny the Pentagon’s strategy, ain’t no skin off the USA’s ass.
The attack on the NPP area will be interesting, if the NATO forces can storm across the river then stick tight massing round the plant Russia won’t be able to carpet the area with mass artillery and grads. The Russian force there will have to hold the NPP and drive them out mano a mano like the Azovstal plant. That’ll be some crazy show.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 14 2022 19:11 utc | 101

That’s not karlof1, and not Norwegian either. I suppose we should expect more of the same impersonation tactics. And the language is better, who knew?
As I said earlier we are getting the non-kindergarten trolls now, lucky us.
Thanks as always Bernhard and my fellow barflies. Skol!

Posted by: jonku | Nov 14 2022 19:11 utc | 102

And the Turkey peace talks?
Russia always lays on the table the immediate demands for surrender, an ultimatum if you will, before the next new level of heavy clobbering.

Posted by: comrade simba | Nov 14 2022 19:12 utc | 103

Ankara’s very public condemnation of Washington re: the terror bombing is THE major event of the last few weeks.

Posted by: Exile | Nov 14 2022 19:13 utc | 104

I wonder why so many people are surprised by the retreat from Kherson City. In his first press conference, Surovikin signaled dissatisfaction with the Kherson front, calling the situation “tense and difficult” and alluding to the threat of Ukraine blowing dams on the Dnieper and flooding the area. Shortly thereafter, the process of evacuating civilians from Kherson began. So there’s that. As far as I can tell, by no means a military expert, he’s completely right. Why would anyone hold an exposed bridgehead – risking encirclement with a bloody disaster as a result – when there’s no plans to take on Nikolayev anyway for the upcoming weeks ? There’s nothing to gain there and a lot to lose.
Optics of course are very bad – as one has grown accustomed to through the SMO.
In the end, Russia will win – all while ‘losing’ a hundred times.

Posted by: Django | Nov 14 2022 19:14 utc | 105

Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 19:00 utc | 94
I had read that the Istanbul bomber belonged to a group backed by Russia, but I did not know they have actually traced it back to the Russians themselves. Sounds like a game changer to me.

Posted by: Melenusa | Nov 14 2022 19:16 utc | 106

Posted by: Don Firineach | Nov 14 2022 18:15 utc | 71
Only time to talk is when the NATO backed army in the East is soundly defeated.
In order for that to happen, Russia would need to actually fight a real war, and not some “SMO”. Russia seems too hesitant, as if its heart is not in this fight.
The US/NATO/Ukraine have insulted Russia severely, and the Global South keeps watching them insult Russia more and more. At a certain point, they will just move on and start to patch up with the US.
It is my fondest hope that Russia wakes up and starts fighting this like an actual war, in the traditional sense.

Posted by: Augustus Caesar | Nov 14 2022 19:16 utc | 107

Some trolls have entered!
The “karlof1” post is a copy and paste from this article “Eight Months of War: A View From Russia’s Second City” posted in Moscowtimes today.
The “Norweigan” post is also fake/copy/paste from “Foreign Policy Setbacks Hamper Putin’s Desires for Bali” posted at Jamestown think-tank.
Watch out.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 14 2022 19:17 utc | 108

@jonku | Nov 14 2022 19:11 utc | 103

That’s not karlof1, and not Norwegian either. I suppose we should expect more of the same impersonation tactics. And the language is better, who knew?
As I said earlier we are getting the non-kindergarten trolls now, lucky us.

I didn’t think the trolls would bother with me, but I guess they are desperate enough to be targeting the lowlives now 😀

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 19:22 utc | 109

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 14 2022 18:38 utc | 79
Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 19:00 utc | 94
Hijacked!
I love to read the hijacked comments because it gives us a window in the way of thinking of those that, paid or not, want to influence us in this despicable yet funny way.
For example, quite a lot of effort has gone in the spoofed text of karlof1 although it is quite generic and probably a copy paste from elsewehere/elsetime. But it is on a nice intellectual level, trying to talk to our sense of morality here, and is a pure accolade for the MoA forum!
The spoofed text for norwegian is even more interesting. It is actually very contemporary and probably tailor made for here, meaning some effort has gone in it. It uses facts, falsehoods and speculations in a healthy mix (as it should for a good believable propaganda piece) to paint Russia as isolated. It is also quite interesting how the first sentence of the last paragraph speaks to and tries to connect with MOAs audience to draw discussion and impact on itself.
I must say, keep them coming! Love the stuff, maybe I should start collecting these for a class on weaponized linguistic programming. Pure gold!

Posted by: alek_a | Nov 14 2022 19:22 utc | 110

The post at 79 isn’t made by me. I had thought having an uncopiable link would prohibit mimicking, but that’s clearly not the case. Again, the comment at 78 is mine, the one at 79 is not.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 14 2022 19:23 utc | 111

US openly supports YPG and PKK.
It’s not hidden.
Google – US supports PKK.
The US is quite proud of its support of these groups.
Support means funding, training and all of it.

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Nov 14 2022 19:23 utc | 112

@Melenusa | Nov 14 2022 19:16 utc | 107

Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 19:00 utc | 94
I had read that the Istanbul bomber belonged to a group backed by Russia, but I did not know they have actually traced it back to the Russians themselves. Sounds like a game changer to me.

The post you are replying to was written by a troll, not me.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 19:24 utc | 113

The last Russians who “trust the plan” and believe in 3D-Chess are western intellectual tourists also called “Russophiles” on MoA.
No Russian on the Patriotic Right, No Communist, No Liberal, No NazBol, No Boomer.
Only (a few) Barflies.
Putin and Russian softpower killed itself.
Only people left clinging on the “based genius Putin who will fight the evil empire and free the world” meme are those here, who based their whole identity and hope for salvation on Putin.
Saker can now hide behind Hurricanes, Martyanov can claim all Russian analysts are dumb (in actual Russia, not in US eating pancakes) and he is the only true expert.
But in a few months’ time, with the next defeat, there is nowhere to run and hide from the truth.
Russophiles: It is over. Russia won’t rescue you from the Empire. It will barely be able to save itself if it is lucky.
Did it have to be this way? No, but the Regime was too corrupt, to incompetent, and too cowardly. And everyone in Russia realizes this, no matter the political spectrum.
It is time for you to be yourself, stop the cringe, and stop trying to outdo the Russians in being Russian.
PS: Tell yourself i am a troll, if that helps to keep your cognitive dissonance alive. But i am a reader since nearly 10 years, and had hopes like you did. Until years ago.

Posted by: DontBeliveEitherSide | Nov 14 2022 19:28 utc | 114

Someone spent some time studying MoA in order to learn the names of the long-term respected posters and then has started a campaign of hijacking their MoA names to put out pro-Empire BS.
Although this shows that MoA has become a high-value target, it is unfortunate because those new to MoA will not pick up on this and then reply to fake posts, creating confusion. Is is also worrisome, because the Empire has a variety of means to interfere with and shut down alternative sites.
Thanks to b for all his work.

Posted by: Perimetr | Nov 14 2022 19:31 utc | 115

@79 karlof
sorry, straight out of the Mockingbird feeds
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 14 2022 19:11 utc | 102
Someone said that war is as much about avoiding making mistakes as it is getting successes. IF UAF is hugely superior in numbers, the tactical/fighting withdrawals tactics will continue. And even if forces are at par, they may still continue. However, having more firepower always enables to cause higher attrition even during managed withdrawal to enemy or on the flip side, reduce effectiveness of enemy at faster rate. Something big is brewing.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 14 2022 19:31 utc | 116

alek_a | Nov 14 2022 19:22 utc | 111
Probably an outsourced intelligence operation, Israeli maybe. Not traceable to NATO.

Posted by: moaobserver | Nov 14 2022 19:31 utc | 117

I am an American, so that makes me impatient by nature.
And I have learned a lot about the art of warfare from all the Russophile blogs like MofA, Dima of Military Summary Channel…”Hello my dear friends!”, the two Andrei’s, Larry Johnson, Jon Helmer, Big Serge and Southfront.
Why is the pullback from Kherson such a “sky is falling” event? I have learned about the Mongolian Strategy: Fall back, wait for the enemy to attack and then pound them with volleys of arrows.
How does Uki/NATO press their offensive over muddy and flat terrain? Genghis didn’t have drones, rockets and bombers, but Russia does.
UKi NATO would look like a cockroach on a white carpet going forward.
I have paid attention to the more impressive and recent gains in the areas of attrition: Opytne, Belogorovka, Mayorsk, Pavlovka. Making gains in and near Bakhmut, Soledar and Ugledar are what this SMO was about, was it not?
Making it harder for the Uki/NATO forces to terror bomb civilian cities, hundreds dead and dying per day. And when you read the MoD Telegram or Southfront daily counts, Russia has gotten really adept at intercepting HIMARS rockets at $100k a pop.
Let Zelensky enjoy his hollow victory while his troops are being turned to fertilizer in the Donbass.
I also think as Americans, we have looked at this war like a football game. It’s not like Dallas losing to Green Bay, where a loss is a loss.
Whatever faith I might have, is on Generals Cannibal and Winter.

Posted by: Anunnaki | Nov 14 2022 19:32 utc | 118

@Zanon #57

Russia have not secured any region for almost 9 months of this war.

They completed the liberation of Lugansk and gained much territory of Donetsk. Ukrainian forces in Donetsk are in extremely fortified positions (bunkers, trenches, etc.) from which it is very difficult to remove them. Once some forces are removed, Ukraine sends in reinforcements. Russia doesn’t have to conquer all of Ukraine to eliminate the Ukrainian military (one of the operation goals), the forces keep coming to them.
What I don’t understand is why Russia did not destroy all the bridges over the Dnieper early in the war, and still hasn’t destroyed them. Without the bridges it would be very difficult to re-supply and replenish the Ukrainian forces in the Donbass. No doubt a lot of thinking went into that and they decided it was better not to do so – in fact in general Russia has been very kind to civilian infrastructure, waiting over 9 months even to attack the energy infrastructure in any meaningful way.

that are now facing terror by ukrainian nazi forces, forces, they by by the way Russia let free themselves!

Russia exchanges Ukrainian prisoners 1-for-1 with Ukrainian prisoners because they understand the inhumane treatment Ukraine metes out on Russian prisoners, including torture and murder. Sure the Ukrainian forces will return to battle, but so will many of the Russian forces, and given the respective kill ratio and dire shortage of Russian forces, that’s actually advantageous to the mission on another level as well.

Again Russia keep retreating because they are constantly unprepared.

Kherson was captured in the first days of the war, on March 3. At that point they were still under the misguided strategy of seeking a quick Ukrainian capitulation. A lot has changed since then.
I agree completely that Russia commenced the war with insufficient forces to achieve their objectives. I’m sure there are a lot of reasons for that, both domestic political and international relations, but regardless of the reasons, that has been Russia’s bane of the war from the get.

Besides Russia could, if they actually had used their weapons easily targeted these massing troops.

Which weapons are those? Ukraine attempted a number of reconnaissance by force attacks on Kherson and were routinely routed. The massings you refer to are outside artillery range and Ukraine has sufficient air defense assets remaining to prevent Russian carpet-bombing with large, slow bomber planes.
Aside from that, Ukraine was regularly shelling the large dam above Kherson. Russian commanders feared that Ukraine could cause a breach of the dam, which would dramatically increase water flow in the Dnieper, preventing re-supply of Russian forces in Kherson and forcing the dug-in forces, to avoid drowning, west toward the Ukrainian forces, where they would be subject to annihilation.
There are backseat drivers and Monday morning quarterbacks, and then there are armchair generals.

Posted by: CalDre | Nov 14 2022 19:33 utc | 119

What if Russia withdrew from Kherson City, because it was a preconditoon of the negotiations? Milley is being quoted that Kherson City is the last territory Ukraine can reasoably expect. What if Russia obliged and didnt use it in negotiations, because it couldnt legally give Ukraine its territory, which would have been too obvious after a deal was made? This way, Russia can refer to military necessities, while in reality it served as a bargaining chiped to get a peace deal from the US.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Nov 14 2022 19:33 utc | 120

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 14 2022 19:17 utc | 109
Ah, dang! Both copy paste from elsewehere. I thought we were getting honored by original thought propaganda specifically made for us! That would have been something, someone spending cash on expensive texts for us.
Ah well, I suppose we dont matter much in the bigger scheme of things.

Posted by: alek_a | Nov 14 2022 19:35 utc | 121

Thank you English.

Posted by: PeeDee | Nov 14 2022 19:37 utc | 122

@alek_a | Nov 14 2022 19:22 utc | 111

I must say, keep them coming! Love the stuff, maybe I should start collecting these for a class on weaponized linguistic programming. Pure gold!

First time I have seen “The Russia” (“The Russia is also uncertain about the attitude…”). Maybe a hint of a German troll…

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 19:38 utc | 123

Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 19:00 utc | 94
Who says the Russians were behind the bombing in Istanbul?

Posted by: Mandy | Nov 14 2022 19:39 utc | 124

@ Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 19:09 utc | 99
re Norwegian @ Nov 14 2022 19:00 utc | 94
Clearly not you.
The same goes for fake Karlof1
@ karlof1 | Nov 14 2022 18:34 utc | 78
@ karlof1 | Nov 14 2022 18:38 utc | 79
There are numerous post vanishing too … b must be actively culling.
The Twolls are getting slightly more sophisticated/aggressive. They’ve moved on from the E team, to the D team, more than likely.
Long held suspicions TwollWoda may be a Psyops operator MOS 37F or equivalent, possibly a buck Sgt or 2nd Lt. Slippery literate persistent Wormtongue chatting with socks/subordinates … who knows.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 14 2022 19:41 utc | 125

There will be no direct confrontation with NATO. If the US is threatening it in the meetings, then the Russians must be laughing. After reading the GAO report on the readiness of US military aircraft and after some searching on the readiness of the German air force, and of just EU countries, there is no way NATO can conceivably move/mobilize to take on a Russian military that will be 500K+. And which needed could have available even more personnel and weapons. By the time NATO could mobilize to adequate levels, Putin may have retired.
No wonder Putin replied “let them try” when asked about NATO/Polish troops entering Ukraine. He may have meant not that they will be destroyed, but they couldn’t even have enough to cross any border.
I used to think it was hyperbole over claims that NATO was pathetic by people like Scott Ritter. Now I believe them. One poster here if memory serves say it was more a PR firm than anything else and only fit to bomb rural Muslims.

Posted by: Erelis | Nov 14 2022 19:42 utc | 126

b in the weekly summary linked an article from MK Bhadrakumar
who discusses the Kherson withdrawal in all aspects.
I’ll link again for those who may not have seen it. It also contains important excerpts from an interview Surovikin made. Interesting read
https://www.indianpunchline.com/russias-kherson-withdrawal-is-tactical/

Posted by: Down South | Nov 14 2022 19:43 utc | 127

@Zanon #57
Reposted due to html errors in #121 …

Russia have not secured any region for almost 9 months of this war.

They completed the liberation of Lugansk and gained much territory of Donetsk. Ukrainian forces in Donetsk are in extremely fortified positions (bunkers, trenches, etc.) from which it is very difficult to remove them. Once some forces are removed, Ukraine sends in reinforcements. Russia doesn’t have to conquer all of Ukraine to eliminate the Ukrainian military (one of the operation goals), the forces keep coming to them.
What I don’t understand is why Russia did not destroy all the bridges over the Dnieper early in the war, and still hasn’t destroyed them. Without the bridges it would be very difficult to re-supply and replenish the Ukrainian forces in the Donbass. No doubt a lot of thinking went into that and they decided it was better not to do so – in fact in general Russia has been very kind to civilian infrastructure, waiting over 9 months even to attack the energy infrastructure in any meaningful way.

that are now facing terror by ukrainian nazi forces, forces, they by by the way Russia let free themselves!

Russia exchanges Ukrainian prisoners 1-for-1 with Ukrainian prisoners because they understand the inhumane treatment Ukraine metes out on Russian prisoners, including torture and murder. Sure the Ukrainian forces will return to battle, but so will many of the Russian forces, and given the respective kill ratio and dire shortage of Russian forces, that’s actually advantageous to the mission on another level as well.

Again Russia keep retreating because they are constantly unprepared.

Kherson was captured in the first days of the war, on March 3. At that point they were still under the misguided strategy of seeking a quick Ukrainian capitulation. A lot has changed since then.
I agree completely that Russia commenced the war with insufficient forces to achieve their objectives. I’m sure there are a lot of reasons for that, both domestic political and international relations, but regardless of the reasons, that has been Russia’s bane of the war from the get.

Besides Russia could, if they actually had used their weapons easily targeted these massing troops.

Which weapons are those? Ukraine attempted a number of reconnaissance by force attacks on Kherson and were routinely routed. The massings you refer to are outside artillery range and Ukraine has sufficient air defense assets remaining to prevent Russian carpet-bombing with large, slow bomber planes.
Aside from that, Ukraine was regularly shelling the large dam above Kherson. Russian commanders feared that Ukraine could cause a breach of the dam, which would dramatically increase water flow in the Dnieper, preventing re-supply of Russian forces in Kherson and forcing the dug-in forces, to avoid drowning, west toward the Ukrainian forces, where they would be subject to annihilation.
There are backseat drivers and Monday morning quarterbacks, and then there are armchair generals.

Posted by: CalDre | Nov 14 2022 19:46 utc | 128

Why should they take them anywhere? With that argument they can take them to Russia proper. An argument Zelensky have used.
What safety by the way? You “deluding” yourself that Ukraine will suddenly halt their offensive march now?
Posted by: Zanon | Nov 14 2022 18:49 utc | 85

The delusion is all yours. The UAF’s “offensive march” got halted every time they tried to make a move on Kherson and had to turn tail, to lick their wounds in retreat. As for Zelensky wanting to kick ethnic Russian Ukrainian citizens out of the country, that problem has been solved for him. The four largely ethnic Russian populated Oblasts have voted to leave Ukraine. The 20% of the country generating around 3/4 of the GDP.
Buh-bye.

Posted by: Gt Stroller | Nov 14 2022 19:47 utc | 129

They are not ‘peace’ talks.
It is the ‘surrender terms’ being agreed by the CIA front man – he will relay that to his proxies and petty Caesars of the CW that he and his praetorians control.
There will be some face saving lies and ‘victories’ to be declared before pulling out first from the Ukraine and the other little bastards who have been jumping around like little one eyed minions. It will be the first stage of a final withdrawal of the US occupation troops in Europe since 1944.
Ukraine will not be the new Zion, Crimea will not be ceded and with it the control of the main North South, East West cross road of EURurAsia & Africa.
Free At Last.
Posted by: DunGroanin | Nov 14 2022 17:20 utc | 48
That is the exact conclusion that makes any sense about this anti-Russian frenzy, MSM front page froth and Neo-Con fervour for war in UK-ie, DunGroanin. We have to ask ourselves who wants Ukraine. A novo-Israel? The Ukraine and The Crimea is where 98% of the Iews come from. They are Khazars. Look ’em up. None of them feel very safe or at home in the Middle East. And we wonder why. Udaism is an abomination. A horror. Evil. There is only one chosen race and the rest of us must be obliterated. Yes, destroyed. No mercy. The giddy god Jee-ho-vah says it must be so! Read The Bible, Deuteronomy for the law. They still believe this nonsense written by idealistic holt-men/scribes 2,500 years ago. I see Blackrock has just signed some doc with the Ewish Zalensky to rebuild. The promised land ‘ere we cometh! Or not… God Bless The Russians. We in The Waste have been overrun and enfeebled.

Posted by: Henry Neild | Nov 14 2022 19:51 utc | 130

“..that is my point, if Russia cant even keep 5% of the area of Kherson they sure as hell wont be able to keep the other 95% of it…” Zanon@69
And if NATO and Ukraine cannot hold in to 20% of the country why would you presume that they can hang on to any of the remaining 80% that Russia might want?
Or doesn’t your logic work that way?

Posted by: bevin | Nov 14 2022 19:51 utc | 131

@ Norwegian
You’ve been … Honored 😉
This is not one individual. Suspect they’re analyzing posters searchable posting record, producing doppelgangers, then promptly adapted to now mimicking regulars posting alerts- while conversing BS with impostors.
This may get messy …

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 14 2022 19:53 utc | 132

Since this thread is about presumed negotiations, I suggest we read today’s Global Times editorial on the G20 which begins tomorrow as it makes some very important points, “Anyone who deviates from G20 theme will be booed”. Last week I linked to an article describing what was occurring prior to Bali whose main revelations are again repeated:

Ahead of the summit, an article was published by The Jakarta Post with the title “G20 leaders, please don’t come to Bali just to quarrel.” The article said, “Indonesian people, and global citizens, hope the leaders refrain from using the precious moments during the summit simply as opportunities to criticize and attack one another.” This is obviously a reference, followed by directly naming the US and the Group of Seven (G7), asking them to act for global peace and interests, and not “force their will against smaller or poorer nations.” These remarks reflect the general sentiment of the international community toward the G20 summit. We fully understand and agree with them.
The current posture of Western countries led by the US seems as if they are going to G20 to “quarrel,” and public opinion has already made rough predictions about who will be targeted and what they will say. The global rift triggered by the Russia-Ukraine conflict and US’ promotion of its strategy to contain China is a new situation for this year’s G20 summit, but it just underlines the crucial value of the G20 as an important platform for coping with global crises as well as reforming and improving global economic governance. Bringing political confrontation to the G20 venue is a severe pollution to the precious platform of the G20, which is bound to be unanimously condemned by the international community.

What Lavrov revealed about the West’s conduct at the East Asian Summit that I linked to yesterday gives us an idea of how they’ll behave in Bali–Badly, as anticipated. The following point is profound:
“In a sense, the G20 is also a symbol of the transformation from the West having the only say to common governance across the globe. As a result, as Washington’s interest in multilateral coordination fades, and its enthusiasm for forming its own bloc grows, the US has become increasingly disinterested in the G20. Instead, it is very interested in the G7. From the previous G20 summits, we can see that Washington is increasingly explicit in its interference in the events with political issues.” [My Emphasis]
The editor closes thusly:
“Although this G20 summit is overshadowed by geopolitics, the importance and urgency for the world to strengthen policy coordination and cooperation in the economic field are increasing. As Indonesian President Joko Widodo, the head of state of the host of this G20 summit, said, ‘The G20 is not meant to be a political forum. It’s meant to be about economics and development.’ We hope that instead of playing a geopolitical chess game at the summit, all G20 members will be sincere from the heart, so that the organization can play its proper role.” [My Emphasis]
The G20 is the Geopolitical equivalent of football’s World Cup in that the whole world will be watching. It’s unfortunate the G20 can’t issue Red Cards to those deserving to be ejected. Xi has already met with Biden and flatly told him Taiwan will never again become independent of China. Hopefully, those at the other end of Biden’s earpiece will have heard the message. And it’s likely the spooks in Ankara did talk about Taiwan and the G20 since all aspects of the global geopolitical puzzle are linked.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 14 2022 19:54 utc | 133

@alek_a | Nov 14 2022 19:35 utc | 123

Ah, dang! Both copy paste from elsewehere. I thought we were getting honored by original thought propaganda specifically made for us! That would have been something, someone spending cash on expensive texts for us.
Ah well, I suppose we dont matter much in the bigger scheme of things.

Not a pure copy/paste, so you can still analyse
Troll source article: Foreign Policy Setbacks Hamper Putin’s Desires for Bali vs. Troll MoA post pretending to be me.
From the sourced article: “The Kremlin is also uncertain about the attitude …”
From the troll post: “The Russia is also uncertain about the attitude …”
So there is the explanation for “The Russia”. The scammer knew that “Kremlin” was to obvious no-no, so they did a Kremlin -> Russia search/replace. A bit more of this stuff and we have a complete Troll Rosetta stone!

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 19:54 utc | 134

CalDre
On Luhansk:
Luhansk border is not under control and Luhansk are constantly shelled. How come Ukraine can keep sending troops to the trenches? Again Russia must be able to target those transfers of soldiers, ammo, railways etc. But they are not.
On releasing Azov nazis by Russia: No they did not release it because of feeling for russian prisoners. They released them because Russia was dumb enough to trade those nazis for Medvedchuk.
What weapons Russia should use? Any weapons fit. Russia have weapons that can target the whole of the world. They could of course target any site in Ukraine (massing troops for example) if they want but they are not doing it.
On Kherson dam being shelled: Well what did Russia expect? Why did they not secure that site from the start?

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 14 2022 19:56 utc | 135

Help me out here: why not negotiate from a position of irresistible strength? I get the tactical and strategic necessity for the pullout from Kherson but negotiating now isn’t a good look. A pause in fighting is not in Russia’s interest.
OK, so then what is Russia afraid of? Victory in Ukraine backs US/NATO into a corner. European popular opinion is increasingly in favour of meeting Russia halfway. B is right that the US cannot allow Ukraine to lose, but Ukraine is a basket-case run by carpet-baggers. Their military are latter-day ARVN who will need to be propped up at some point by forces who know slightly better how to run a war. But the US military have never fought a peer opponent on their own, so Russia may be afraid that a victory in Ukraine might be strategic overreach that risks a desperate reaction from the US/NATO. That the US is worried is confirmed by Pentagon (!) calls for diplomacy. When the soldiers are the voice of reason, time to listen—and yet DC is packed with idiots whose only experience of war is in CoD.
But fear of strategic blunder cannot rule now. The Russians have a historical opportunity here to tip the world in a new direction. Sure—hear out what the CIA messenger boy has to say. But nothing brings your opponent into a preferable bargaining position than necessity. Nothing short of the military surrender of Ukraine will do. What the US does then is on them.

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 14 2022 19:56 utc | 136

@Mandy | Nov 14 2022 19:39 utc | 126

Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 19:00 utc | 94
Who says the Russians were behind the bombing in Istanbul?

A troll imposter, not me. Read this thread. I did NOT write Nov 14 2022 19:00 utc | 94

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 19:57 utc | 137

Zanon @ 109

Some trolls have entered! The “karlof1” post is a copy and paste… The “Norweigan” post is also fake/copy/paste… Watch out.

That’s some damn obscure, worthless, terribly written shit to know the source of. Google search in quotes? Ok, benefit of the doubt, and honestly you’re a tolerable troll, keeps the bar from getting insular.
The new confusion trolls write trite and wordy, or apparently have given up trying form a thought in their heads and simply copy paste.
When the boss finds out you’re free loading, simply copy/pasting plagiarized material for $7.25/hr, he’s going to cut you back to $5 off the books, you’ll be making less than an illegal dishwasher. But do it out of patriotism, in victory there’s a place for everyone even the lazy and witless.
The confusion is kind of fun, it’s like a holiday weekend and we are all drinking way too much and seeing double. But it does waste time, which is the point, drive serious people off the forum.
Amazing the empire is so scared shitless it’s down to fucking with trivial forums. Maybe Nuland and Blinken themselves are actively managing the troll attacks? Gives one hope.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 14 2022 19:57 utc | 138

Outraged | Nov 14 2022 19:41 utc | 127
Twollwoda… walks like a duck, talks like a duck….

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 14 2022 19:58 utc | 139

Gt Stroller
Who retreated in Kherson? Was it Ukraine or Russia? Who retreated in Izyum? Kharkiv?
Whats next, Zaporizhzhia?

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 14 2022 20:00 utc | 140

Posted by: Perimetr | Nov 14 2022 19:31 utc | 116
They haven’t hijacked my monicker! Should I be insulted? I’ve been posting here for 4-5 years at least.
yours, the real Patroklos, the one and only: if in doubt ask ‘what was the last contest at my funeral and who was the victor and why?’ Should catch out the troll if they can’t answer.

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 14 2022 20:01 utc | 141

It looks like the comments supposedly posted by karlof1 @ 79 and Norwegian @ 94 have come instead from a troll who I suspect used to post at MoA a lot last year before Bernhard banned him/her … for flooding comments threads with cut-n-pasted articles. The troll may try to use particular MoA barflies like human shields but the modus operandi and the troll’s own views will give the game away.
@ Zanon: are you able to provide the links to The Moscow Times and the other publication where the comments @ 79 and 94 were lifted from? If you can do this, I for one would be grateful.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 14 2022 20:02 utc | 142

@Outraged | Nov 14 2022 19:53 utc | 134

This is not one individual. Suspect they’re analyzing posters searchable posting record, producing doppelgangers, then promptly adapted to now mimicking regulars posting alerts- while conversing BS with impostors.
This may get messy …

Maybe. Low quality AI I would say. Too easy to spot. Don’t give them too much credit. Copy/paste with a few search/replace ops. If this is the best they can do, it is bad news for the bad guys 😀

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 20:03 utc | 143

Twollwoda… walks like a duck, talks like a duck….
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 14 2022 19:58 utc | 141

And thinks like a quack.

Posted by: Gt Stroller | Nov 14 2022 20:04 utc | 144

If you see a post which seems slightly “off” just copy paste a bit of the text in google. Someone is posting articles as if they were posts by long-time readers.
BTW, I feel slighted – there’s no fake post in my name.

Posted by: Passerby | Nov 14 2022 20:04 utc | 145

Posted by: Henry Neild | Nov 14 2022 19:51 utc | 132
Given the propensity of MSM, for pretty much the whole duration of SMO to turn almost everything related to this war completely on their heads and project everything, one should indeed expect that these negotiations were requested on the US side and they are surrender terms for USA. That’s what Peskov also said.
Kherson was also hugely hyped and presented as a massive victory for Ukraine. Clearly it was a whimper of a victory. They also made stories about how most of the population in Kherson was “persecuted by Russians” and a culture of horror on the streets, and no one was ever outside in the streets. They also told us that electricity and networks and water were blacked out, but forgot to tell that was due to ukie shelling. They also forgot to tell that over 100k of Kherson (city) population had moved into Russia. They forgot to show us the videos of the same day of ukie persecution of people in Kherson, and the infamous tying to street lamp posts.
So one can reasonably assume USA is losing this one, badly.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 14 2022 20:05 utc | 146

Henry Neild | Nov 14 2022 19:51 utc | 132 – DunGroanin
US is now in a position where it has enter into direct conflict with Russia or declare victory and leave. Like Miley said, this is the best position position US/Ukkraine will ever have for negotiations. Ground will be frozen soon, large Russian force coming on line, US out of Ukrainians, out of weapons and out of ammo. From here forwards its win lose in Russia’s favor.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 14 2022 20:06 utc | 147

When this war is over the main impression will be of a Russia that tried everything in its power to avoid what is going to happen in 2-4 weeks. Namely, a massive push to take the Donbas that will destroy Ukraine as a country.
Looking back, the Minsk agreements, the push towards Kiev, moves around Kharkiv and taking of Kherson, were all attempts to pressure Ukraine to reach a political settlement. I.e., They tried to get some bargaining chips to trade for autonomy, now annexation by Russia, of the Donbas, the real prize. These attempts all failed and now Russia is forced to do what it clearly doesn’t want to do. Namely, send an army of 200-300,000 guys with every non-nuclear weapon Russia has to destroy the Ukrainian forces in the Donbas.
Russia will lose 15-20k but will absolutely devastate whatever is left of Ukrainian society for generations to come. Check out Telegram today, Russians are calling for blood, they will accept the losses gladly at this point to end this the only way it could have ended.

Posted by: Tom | Nov 14 2022 20:06 utc | 148

Posted by: Jen | Nov 14 2022 20:02 utc | 144
I agree, seems like somebody who has been following MoA for a long time. The imposter must have deeper knowledge about thise site, who is a regular and who isnt.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Nov 14 2022 20:08 utc | 149

Whether or not the US government was aware of the details of the bombing attack in Turkey is irrelevant. There is no doubt that the US is distributing explosives and tutoring terrorists in making bombs and planting them around the world.
When a bomb goes off in Hong Kong or Xinkiang the US is responsible. When bombs go off in Iran, just over the border from Kurdish enclaves in Iraq, dominated by Mossad and the CIA, the US is responsible.
When Dugina is assassinated in Moscow by car bomb-the US is responsible. When people identified as collaborators, are tied to posts and beaten in Kherson the US is responsible.
And the deniability of such events is implausible.
Whatever the nationalities of those who blew up the Nordstream pipelines are-the US is, as Radek Sikorski, Mr Anne Applebaum confirmed, responsible.
And the Turks know this. Just as Pakistanis know who was responsible for the attempted killing of Imran Khan. And the British know who was responsible for the coup against Jeremy Corbyn. And Venezuelans understand who sabotaged their power grid.
This is the meaning of unipolarity: all the evil deeds in the political world can be traced back to one place. It hasn’t been burned to the ground since 1814.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 14 2022 20:11 utc | 150

The window that would allow Ukraine to attack in depth, is rapidly closing. So the rapid movement of troops to Zaporiziha and then throwing them into the front, may make some military sense. These will mainly be Mercenaries and “regular” EU and US troops “in drag”. (“All dressed up like the dogs dinner” – as the saying goes).
However, this is also because I suspect that the number of “real” Ukrainians in Zelebods forces are now at a strict minimum. (Azov and other reserved elites maybe excepted). Too young or too old, just good enough to hold.
So Suvrokin can be expected to be waiting for them. It is time the Mercenaries and other fodder are fed into the recycling machine.
****
I base this partly on the immediate acceptance (enthusiasm for…) Suvrokin’s actions by Khadirov and the Wagner Chef. They are seasoned fighters – “professionals”.
****
All the lead up to the present situation has been a series of bloody massacres. This must be taking a toll on whatever remains of an effective Ukie fighting force. The US outside-the-area commanders (The military equivalent of armchair warriors in uniforms) do not give a damn. They are only units to be zapped or moved around by manicured military fingernails on a map. (Taking care not to disturb the blood red nailpolish that is de rigeur for senior orificers.)
****
Of note is that the Dam must be nearly empty so the possibilities for crossing the Dniepr will have been increased accordingly.

Posted by: Stonebird | Nov 14 2022 20:13 utc | 151

Passerby @147–
I’m very pleased you haven’t been duplicated as these attacks make discourse very difficult. And as I just commented on the open thread, policing this issue will be a hardship on b and might require the complete overhaul of MoA.
IMO, the likely perpetrator is the one known as Donkey Tale, who recent reappeared using a slightly altered version of its moniker. Its contempt for this site and its users is very high, which I see as its motive.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 14 2022 20:13 utc | 152

Who retreated in Kherson? Was it Ukraine or Russia?
Posted by: Zanon | Nov 14 2022 20:00 utc | 142
The UAF retreated every time they tried to make a move on Kherson, getting their sorry arses kicked every time. Very different to the RF tactical withdrawal.
Whats next, Zaporizhzhia?
Who knows? Maybe the RF forces will let the UAF, if they are stupid enough to go there, get deeper into territory where they have no air defence, before unleashing serious firepower on them.

Posted by: Gt Stroller | Nov 14 2022 20:15 utc | 153

Jen @ 144
See my post # 96

Posted by: dh | Nov 14 2022 20:18 utc | 154

Since the start of the SMO, everyone has made huge amounts of money.
Russia with the higher prices of oil and natural gas.
Russian MIC with huge increase in orders for yers if not decade, out of actual consumption of ammo and gear but also from prospective fulflling of missile and ammo stocks as well of new gear. I expect this to produce some considerable flow of money towards Russian MIC.
Of course, Westerners (NATO ‘MIC’s and Gov officials) did make lot more (ten fold?) with the 40B+ flip-flop from US debt to Democrats’ pockets which bought them some buoyancy at 2022 midterms, thanks to FTX thump-laundering back and forth and its blessed following bankrupcy, that would make any attempt to track the crypto monies moot.
Therefore we can expect some temporary de-escalation or even a phony-peace, for the upcoming trimesters. Time peoples memories faded away, and before the next war-like episode (Taiwan, Iran, Palestine, Syria, Yemen, whatever ?)

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Nov 14 2022 20:21 utc | 155

I had a dream…
Alaska was originally Russian territory. The routes from Russia to Alaska are short. The United States has no national defense. The people of the USA have no idea about the worldwide wars of the USA and their consequences. A liberation of Alaska would have the consequence that the USA would have to withdraw all its imperial troops immediately from all over the world for national defense. As an imperial naval power, the United States has no tactical and strategic resources for national defense. Not only the whole Ukrainian theater would dissolve immediately due to the new focal point . A shift of the military conflict on Russia’s borders to American territory could lead to a strategic turning point of the conflict and the states of the world would have an opportunity to settle their outstanding accounts with the imperial power, a completely different scenario than at the moment in Ukraine. The veil would be lifted and the emperor stands there naked.
Consequences: Another PR loss in the global information war is not to be expected for Russia, rather the opposite.
Would the US respond to Alaska with a nuclear counter-strike? Not against their own territory and their population on American soil. A nuclear strike against Russia is unlikely, because it would end all the wet dreams of the US with a counter-strike.
The US must experience the stranglehold on Russia on its own, perhaps then it will come to its senses.
All Russia-friendly states (even at the moment Russia-unfriendly states that are in the stranglehold of the empire) and revolutionary forces around the world would certainly support this scenario.
Sometimes it is important to go all in when the stars, karma and chess pieces are placed correctly.
Your comment….????

Posted by: Phrateek | Nov 14 2022 20:24 utc | 156

So, primarily “deconfliction talks,” like in Syria, more accurately here “nonescalation talks,” in particular trying to keep everyone on the same page nukewise.

Posted by: John Kennard | Nov 14 2022 20:25 utc | 157

karlof1 | Nov 14 2022 19:54 utc | 135
UN vote on Russia paying reparations to Ukraine https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/status/1592224100864462851/photo/1
Some where surprising particularly Afghanistan after what it has gone through with the US. A number of African countries though I presume they have US garrisons. To make up numbers there are countries like Naru, population about 9000, and various pacific islands. What does annoy me is countries like Hungary voting for. How many times did these countries vote for US paying restoration for the destruction it has wrought on the world? Total hypocrisy on the part of any nation that voted for.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 14 2022 20:27 utc | 158

karlof1 @ 155

I’m very pleased you haven’t been duplicated…

It’s Invasion Of The Body Snatchers. In the end there will be just one of us left mentioning Putin too much and copy/pasting verbose banalities to keep from getting singled out!

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 14 2022 20:28 utc | 159

Posted by: Melenusa | Nov 14 2022 19:16 utc | 107‡
Posted by: DontBeliveEitherSide | Nov 14 2022 19:28 utc | 115‡
The impersonation is unrelated to the domain of verbal communication.
Ergo sum:
Posted by: alek_a | Nov 14 2022 19:22 utc | 111‡

Posted by: Lauren | Nov 14 2022 20:30 utc | 160

Let’s try that again. …
Posted by: Melenusa | Nov 14 2022 19:16 utc | 107‡
Posted by: DontBeliveEitherSide | Nov 14 2022 19:28 utc | 115‡
Repeat: The impersonations are unrelated to the domain of verbal communication.
Ergo sum:
Posted by: alek_a | Nov 14 2022 19:22 utc | 111‡

Posted by: Laurence | Nov 14 2022 20:36 utc | 161

RT today —
“By a majority of votes, the UN General Assembly has adopted a resolution that would oblige Russia to compensate losses inflicted on Ukraine during the conflict and has recognized the need to create a special ‘international mechanism’ that would allow it to do so.”
If Russia wants to win I’d say now is a good time to do that. ‘Later’ is leaving town.

Posted by: Elmagnostic | Nov 14 2022 20:36 utc | 162

Posted by: Yenwoda | Nov 14 2022 20:12 utc | 153
My bad. The RF has given up 20% of Kherson, not 5% as I incorrectly said.
There again, UAF have lost 20% of Ukraine, not just of one oblast, so your nitpicking is more of a tickle than a jab.

Posted by: Gt Stroller | Nov 14 2022 20:38 utc | 163

It is time for you to be yourself, stop the cringe, and stop trying to outdo the Russians in being Russian.
PS: Tell yourself i am a troll, if that helps to keep your cognitive dissonance alive. But i am a reader since nearly 10 years, and had hopes like you did. Until years ago.
Posted by: DontBeliveEitherSide | Nov 14 2022 19:28 utc | 115

Sounds like good advice. For yourself. Also much projection. A whole lot of projection. Nice try, “long time reader.”

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Nov 14 2022 20:38 utc | 164

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—–https://www.billmon.org—–

Posted by: anjou | Nov 14 2022 20:39 utc | 165

@Elmagnostic #165
Did I miss the vote where the UNGA resolved the Empire to compensate losses inflicted on Vietnam, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Somalia, Cuba, Venezuela, Panama, …..?
Because I know the UN is an austere, principled entity that absolutely believes in the rule of law. So they must be somewhere. Help me find them?

Posted by: CalDre | Nov 14 2022 20:43 utc | 166

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 19:54 utc | 136
That is why I say: keep them coming!
It gives us a peek into what makes them tick. I would love to know the motivation of a propaganda artist. I know the motivations of otherwise nice people in my orbit to be anti-russia (deep down sense of superiority and barbaric view of the world). But these trolls actually go and do something “bad” on purpose. Why? Hatred? Money? Sense of duty? I wonder.

Posted by: alek_a | Nov 14 2022 20:45 utc | 167

@LightYearsFromHome | Nov 14 2022 20:28 utc | 162

It’s Invasion Of The Body Snatchers. In the end there will be just one of us left mentioning Putin too much and copy/pasting verbose banalities to keep from getting singled out!

There was a funny short story in the 1970’s (by the Norwegian sci-fi author Tor Åge Brigsværd), called “Potter-paradokset” (The Potter paradox). It was about a man called Potter who was the subject of an experiement conducted by professor Polli-Volli who had invented a material-transmitter. The initial experiment didn’t seem to work, but later it became clear Potter had been duplicated and was now two instances of himself. The thing got out a bit out of hand, and the rest of the story are excerpts from newspaper articles that increasingly are about Potters. After a while the death of the last non-Potter is reported. It ends with a facsimile about a war breaking out between Israeli and Palestinian Potters.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 20:46 utc | 168

People here are jumping to a mistaken assumption that these talks may be peace talks of some kind.
I’d put good money on betting…
These talks are about escalating the war, and beyound the border of Uqraine.
Russia and the US side will not back down so this conclusion is obveous.
The NATO border has been blurred already.
Britain will be the target for Russian payback on Britain’s own terror-tory.

Posted by: Mark2 | Nov 14 2022 20:48 utc | 169

Russia has asked for a lot: a pullback of NATO to its 1997 position, four parts of Ukraine to become parts of Russia, a guarantee that Ukraine will never join NATO. The U.S. is certainly not willing to commit to those steps – at least not yet.
Even if they got that, the EU will then be targetted to become NATO 2.0, indeed the enlargement of the EU to cover the former Warsaw Pact which did nothing for the EU except create massive migration from the East, bump it’s internal Schengen borders up so far South East that the migrant crisis found a land route and led to nations with totally different cultural and political values into the EU fold and make it hard for a Gaullist foreign policy to emerge as well as being generally drags on social-democratic and environmental reforms.
The former Warsaw Pact countries would act as Trojan horses for a US neocon agenda against Russia in the EU if they were expelled from NATO and turn the common defense provision introduced from Lisbon 2 and hoped to provide the groundwork for an independent European defense alliance to replace NATO (And so bitterly opposed by Albright and the neocons) would become the vector to transform the EU into a neo-NATO itself.
The remaining members of the pre-2004 expansion EU should take Malta and Cyprus and banish the now 10 former Warsaw Pact members to their own political union. We’d all be happier.

Posted by: Altai | Nov 14 2022 20:49 utc | 170

That is an imposter. Not written by me. This site is under attack.
Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 19:09 utc | 99

It was predictable. Without better defense MoA is a sitting duck using 20 year old tech. Registration and moderation are the only options at this point.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Nov 14 2022 20:49 utc | 171

No, please take her and get her out of Canadian politics. Set her up in grandpa’s old office in Krakow, Poland.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Nov 14 2022 16:18 utc
I second that. Best if she up set right in central Kyiv, adjacent to a power station.

Posted by: nwwoods | Nov 14 2022 20:49 utc | 172

Playing for time sounds pretty likely.
I’m worried Putin will fall for it — he’s been so wary of escalating. Russians have made no progress since Severodonetsk in June. 5 months ago. Sad.

Posted by: Windowbug | Nov 14 2022 20:52 utc | 173

I quick recap. Russia tried a quick strike strategy and expected a negotiated settlement. That failed because Ukraine is a big looting operation (see the FTX story). So they regrouped and took down Mariupol, Severdonetsk, and Lisichansk. Around mid-June Gerhard Schoeder flies to Moscow and Russia basically shuts down the war. Troops are given home leave and the Chechyans are sent home. I actually believe Schroeder was legit. The West has derailed the peace talks by taking out Nordstream.
Kherson was lost after NATO took out the bridges. General Surovikin inherited a mess. The withdraw was operationally correct. In other news the reserves are showing up. The Ukraine offensive in Kharkov is dead, except as a convenient way to stack up dead Poles. The Russians are making gains towards Siversk, they’ve tidied up things tactically around Ugledar, and the victory at Pisky is being expanded, even though the whole area is WWI bunkers and trenches.
When the ground freezes, you’ll get the offensive. Ukraine is currently freezing and suffering from lack of electricity. The Russians can drop to grid with a few cruise missiles.

Posted by: JackG | Nov 14 2022 20:54 utc | 174

Registration and moderation are the only options at this point.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Nov 14 2022 20:49 utc | 175
Not sure I agree. I’ve been able to see through every instance of the body snatching – at the very least I registered the comment and continued scrolling to find the inevitable; a regular commenter confirming that it was a troll. Sometimes it even makes things more fun, especially because the body snatchers think they’re so sophisticated but in reality their one-dimensional shallow trolling is juvenile and obvious.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Nov 14 2022 20:54 utc | 175

Posted by: Altai | Nov 14 2022 20:49 utc | 174
The expansion of the EU to include Warsaw pact countries was a large factor boosting the momentum of the UKIP campaign to leave the EU. The UK/EU elites were happy to import cheaper labour from Eastern Europe – UK workers who suffered the wage compression, not so much.

Posted by: Gt Stroller | Nov 14 2022 20:57 utc | 176

Posted by: bevin | Nov 14 2022 20:11 utc | 152
Can’t say I can find fault with you on any of that.

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 14 2022 20:57 utc | 177

Current temperature in Kharkiv: 0C. Kiev: 3C.
A few more weeks and mud season will be over.

Posted by: JackG | Nov 14 2022 20:58 utc | 178

@ Elm Agnostic 167
The UN is an Atlantacist club similar to the Athenaeum where like minded , out moded stiffs compare accommodation in their whitewashed tombs.
A majority in the UN has now more validity than a majority under Syria’s Assad. Alln that can be said about it is that the reign of US terror is about to end, inshallah, which is more than one can say about Alawite Assad.

Posted by: Giyane | Nov 14 2022 20:59 utc | 179

Alaska originally Russian…
Posted by: Phrateek | Nov 14 2022 20:24 utc | 159

Nope. Alaska was originally inhabited by the Southeastern Coastal Indians (the Tlingit, Haida, and Tsimshian ), the Athabascans, the Aleut, and the two groups of Eskimos, the Inupiat and the Yup’ik.
Russia later occupied it and eventually sold it to the USA to prevent the British from getting it, since there was no way to defend it. The US then stole the panhandle from the British.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Nov 14 2022 21:01 utc | 180

Giyane | Nov 14 2022 20:59 utc | 183
UN is now as defunct as the league of nations.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 14 2022 21:02 utc | 181

With various Telegram posts indicating there have been announcements that the Ukr army intends to move 40,000-50,000 troops of those massed for the assault on Kherson to the Zaporizhzhya region with the intention of overwhelming it — retaining the nuclear power facility as well as preventing disruption of the land corridor would seem to be major concerns for the Russian leadership.
It is somewhat concerning that there has been little or no discussion about the movement of troops and armaments to counter the Uhr threat — can it be possible that there will be another withdrawal of the troops already there?
/

Posted by: chet380 | Nov 14 2022 21:03 utc | 182

Peter AU – 161
With such a resolution, these dumb idiots leave less and less margin to Russia, which soon will be forced to basically erase Ukraine entirely, so that it doesn’t have to be faced with that kind of lunacy. Well, granted, Russia might actually have to cancel NATO, but that’s always been a given and most human beings should actually root for this – meanwhile, most human beings aren’t specially interested in Ukraine being annihilated, it’s mostly a useful tool of US for now.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Nov 14 2022 21:05 utc | 183

There appears to me a possibility that people might be selling the SMO short in one fundamental respect, in that it certainly unhinged the NATO/2014 Regime’s “uptick” offensive.
It also seems to have unhinged some murky goings-on in Mariupol (Azovstal), which LANDCOM seems to’ve been anxious about.

Posted by: John Kennard | Nov 14 2022 21:07 utc | 184

@Zanon #137

Luhansk border is not under control and Luhansk are constantly shelled.

So?

Again Russia must be able to target those transfers of soldiers, ammo, railways etc. But they are not.

You make it sound so easy. There are military, social, economic, political and strategic considerations involved. I don’t have a secret microphone in the Kremlin and don’t know why but there are plenty of plausible reasons. Some of them may even be reasons you’d agree with if you knew of them.
By the way, despite its massive and prolonged bombing campaign in Yugoslavia, NATO barely put a dent in the Ukrainian forces. They did destroy a lot of tank decoys and the like. It really isn’t as easy as you imagine.

On releasing Azov nazis by Russia: No they did not release it because of feeling for russian prisoners. They released them because Russia was dumb enough to trade those nazis for Medvedchuk.

They traded one for Medvechuk. Maybe they thought he would be politically useful for the newly annexed regions.

Russia have weapons that can target the whole of the world. They could of course target any site in Ukraine (massing troops for example) if they want but they are not doing it.

A lot of those weapons are quite expensive and hard to replace – they need to keep reserves in case of NATO entry into the conflict. The efficient way to do it would be carpet-bombing, but Ukraine has too many air defenses to permit that.

Well what did Russia expect? Why did they not secure that site from the start?

I have wondered why they didn’t just lower the dam levels too but I don’t have the answer. On the plus side they did secure the dam – probably at first it did not occur to them that Ukraine might destroy the dam and flood a Ukrainian city.
Basically it sounds like you are upset Russia didn’t win the war right away and each day Ukraine doesn’t capitulate increases your anger. Recommend focusing on other things for a while.

Posted by: CalDre | Nov 14 2022 21:07 utc | 185

There is no chance of agreeing with the US to anything. The shit we see today is the same as the old shit.
“The #WEF is the 60s Schwabian mask behind which the Harvard-funded, CIA & CFR backed trio Kissinger/Galbraith/Kahn sits. Wind the clock back to 1953 and the CIA creates Ukrainian destabilisation project AERODYNAMIC: https://bit.ly/38LaH6Q
https://twitter.com/PStewed/status/1520787437542416384
There we have information pointing to who was “incubating” this Ukro-Nazi Culture. It’s multi-generational problem. It’s in the DNA now, though the ability to kill kids with an ax was there much longer.
https://twitter.com/ChinasCanada/status/1590716645609476099

Posted by: Tom_12 | Nov 14 2022 21:09 utc | 186

On 18 march, Russia used a Kinzhal “dagger” missile to blow up an Ukrainian arms depot, 150 meter underground. Since then, other missiles have been used to shut down large parts of the Ukrainian electric grid.
The West is easier prey than Ukraine. To shut down Western economy, you only need to target a few datacenters that handle money transfers between banks, and everything grinds to a halt. What do you think?

Posted by: Passerby | Nov 14 2022 21:11 utc | 187

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 14 2022 20:46 utc | 171
There was a Simpson’s episode just like that. Homes found a duplication machine and created way to much other Homers. Hilarity ensues.

Posted by: alek_a | Nov 14 2022 21:13 utc | 188

US “diplomats” seem to have been early adopters of the puberty blockers they are pushing so heavily on American children.
They are acting like they are still in junior high school.
In preparation for the G20 the US is running around behind Indonesia’s back, whispering to the other countries to totally shun Russia.
Come on, man! Don’t talk to them, don’t take a photo with them, don’t eat at their table, walk out when they speak.
Don’t you want to be one of the cool kids?
You know, like Joe Biden, the coolest of the cool, with his golden leg hairs and keen sense of smell.
Quick witted, sharp as a tack and eloquent to boot. Everyone wants to be at the prize leader’s table, not over there with those losers.
Yes, the trolls have Gone Big now, impersonating Karlof and Norwegian.
Go Big or Get Out.
Hopefully, B will cast them out. Begone, foul creatures!

Posted by: wagelaborer | Nov 14 2022 21:16 utc | 189

While the Shield and Dagger chiefs are discussing something in secret, under the radar of “Look here at Ukraine”, Bill Gates is talking about “Death Panels”.
https://twitter.com/BernieSpofforth/status/1592091480600240132
Listening to this psycho is believing, because if someone wrote what he said the effect would be quite different.

Posted by: Tom_12 | Nov 14 2022 21:18 utc | 190

Has there been any actual official confirmation of the U.S.-Russian meeting in Istanbul? If its a real thing, wouldn’t it be reasonable to make some connection with it to the bombing there? The American CIA guy is known to be cut from the same cloth as Lavrov, while the Kurds are generally tools of the American MIC. Maybe someone in America doesn’t want the U.S. and the Russian talking?

Posted by: Falkvor Lomansson | Nov 14 2022 21:22 utc | 191

It’s hard to imagine that Russia, having mobilized 300,000 troops and accompanying equipment, would then agree to a pause in the fighting that would allow Ukraine and NATO to re-arm and stay warm over the winter. The Russian people would go nuts.

Posted by: Rob | Nov 14 2022 21:22 utc | 192

People in the four parts of old Ukraine were shelled, slaughtered, and terrorized since 2014.

Only Donetsk and Luhansk tri d to become states within Ukraine and only they were in a civil war since 2014 with Ukraine.

Posted by: Simon | Nov 14 2022 21:24 utc | 193

Point of Fact:
The Alaska Transfer was under a 99 year lease agreement, not a sale

Posted by: Exile | Nov 14 2022 21:25 utc | 194

Clueless Joe | Nov 14 2022 21:05 utc | 187
Ukraine is now near an exact replica of nazi Germany. It has the ‘volunteer’ battalions to take the place off the SS. In just eighyt years the majority of Ukrainians ahave come to view Russian as subhumans that need to bee wiped out, men women and children. they say this publicly on national TV, ‘protesters’ in London call for this. Head military surgeon on national TV calls on doctors to castrate Russian POW’s.
Israel – 1.5 million Jews were killed in Ukraine, with the enthusiastic help of these people… and Israel is sending aid to this Nazi state. Israel ride the holocaust, but the hypocrisy of giving aid… watched a video the other day of a lancet tacking out an Israeli armored military vehicle. Sub human jews teamed up with supremacist Ukrainians to kill
Russians. It is no wonder they have been persecuted throughout history.
This is what Israel supports. https://forward.com/news/462916/nazi-collaborator-monuments-in-ukraine/?amp=1

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 14 2022 21:25 utc | 195

Meep Meep Meep
I got a 19th rider go outta my way peasants
~~
europe 2025 haah 😀

Posted by: Macpott | Nov 14 2022 21:28 utc | 196

Two videos here of Jewish people who do not forget the many jews killed by the Ukrainian nazi’s.
https://twitter.com/dumptheguardian/status/1591310244453515266?cxt=HHwWhIC8gY-PvJUsAAAA

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 14 2022 21:29 utc | 197

Posted by: anjou | Nov 14 2022 20:39 utc | 168
I don’t read hexadecimal. Is there a short version?

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 14 2022 21:30 utc | 198

“Maybe someone in America doesn’t want the U.S. and the Russian talking?” [*supra*]
Israel.

Posted by: Laurence | Nov 14 2022 21:31 utc | 199

@annunaki
I think its not the military dimension. Militarily you can argue it.
Its the political dimension that made me shutter. A lot of it was for sure based on wrong analyses.
The truth is, that a lot of us assumed that odessa would be the end goal for example or that once incorporated into russia cherson would be defend on much higher cost etc.
I guess its like I understood some goals of this operations but now it seems to me that the kremlin itself does not know what it wants to achieve in Ukraine.

Posted by: Orgel | Nov 14 2022 21:32 utc | 200