Ukraine War - A Contentious Graveyard In Poland
An independent Polish news site, Niezaleizny Dziennik Polityczny, has an interesting piece about Polish losses in the war in Ukraine.
I can not confirm the reports veracity but since at least 2014 the site has regularly published several news and opinion pieces per day. It seems to be opposed to the current conservative PiS led government in Poland.
Below is the machine translated Polish text:
A shameful end. American quarters for Polish mercenaries
In early November, the regional media announced plans to create burials similar to American war cemeteries in Olsztyn. The reports sparked a wave of indignation, both among the city's residents and Poles across the country. "This is a necropolis for Poles? We are from a different culture ”this is how indignant users in social media reacted to the strange ideas of the city council.
...
The municipal cemetery in Dywity is the main necropolis in Olsztyn and covers over 35 ha. Today it is loud about it all over Poland, because soon it will look like a war cemetery in the USA. It has to be like in an American movie. A large lawn with identical tombstones on it. Without trees, benches, angels bending over the dead. The tombstones will be the same, they will only differ in color. Their manufacturers provided for only three: black, gray and red-brown.The main reason for the creation of the American cemetery in Olsztyn was the drastically increased number of burials in the region, mainly soldiers' graves.
This situation has become a real problem for the local government of Olsztyn, where the 16th Pomeranian Mechanized Division is stationed. Almost daily military funerals combined with volleys of honor began to irritate the residents and provoked numerous questions to the city administration and the command of the 16th Division. To avoid additional publicity of the problem, the authorities decided to create a separate "American" cemetery.
...
After the outbreak of the war in Ukraine in February this year, President Andrzej Duda and Minister of National Defense Mariusz Błaszczak officially called on Poles to join the ranks of mercenaries and fight on the side of the Kiev regime. Among the fighters who went to war were professional soldiers of the 16th Mechanized Division and veterans of the unit living in the region.During the 10 months of bloody fighting, according to information from publicly available sources, over 1,200 Polish citizens died in Ukraine, including soldiers and veterans of the 16th PDZ. The number of injured and maimed people also amounts to several thousand.
The number of wounded is probably three times the number of dead, though that can vary depending on the war's circumstance. It means that in total some 4800 men of the Polish contingent in Ukraine were wounded or killed. Is that one third of the Polish 'mercenary' forces in Ukraine? Is it more? Or less?
We don't know but I expect that quite a lot of regular soldiers of the 16th Pomeranian Mechanised Division in Olsztyn have been 'asked' to take part in the war. The division consists of one armored and two mechanized brigades plus the usual auxiliaries which makes it a 15,000 men strong unit.
The style of Polish graveyards is typical for a Catholic European country. Trees, individual graves, elaborate tombstones, candles and flowers.
source - bigger
It is understandable that people in Poland do not like the plans for an 'American' style military graveyard:
The authorities prepared "special honors" for them. Uniform quarters are being built in Olsztyn: There are to be two slab sizes. Larger (meter by meter) are graves for officers, smaller ones (60 cm by 60 cm) are quarters for soldiers. It will not be possible to cover the tombstone with cubes, or to sprinkle pebbles and plant flowers. Only grass is to be spread around the graves. Such an inglorious end awaits the mercenaries who died in Ukraine.There will be 1,700 of such burial places only in Olsztyn. Therefore, many Poles who believed in the false promises of government propaganda will be victims of the provocative international policy of the PiS regime.
With plans for 1,700 dead Polish soldiers, beyond those 1,200 already buried, the Polish government seems to expect its soldiers to take part in an even more intensified and longer war.
Posted by b on November 28, 2022 at 16:16 UTC | Permalink
next page »Question. What happens if a large portion of the Ukrainian army escapes to Poland, in the near future, and they continue to fight from Polish soil?
Posted by: Leroy | Nov 28 2022 16:27 utc | 2
rt covers this same article...
Poles killed in Ukraine to get ‘American’ burial – media
Posted by: james | Nov 28 2022 16:29 utc | 3
Other than massive profits for the MIC, the one upside for the Soros/Gates crowd is lots and lots of dead white people. That will create room for the refugees from the ME and N. Africa.
So long Europe, rest in pieces.
Posted by: Chris | Nov 28 2022 16:30 utc | 4
Poles must be noobs at this covert invasion stuff. The us knows how to conceal losses from the public the Poles were actually honoring their dead with 21 gun salutes lol. Silly Poles aren't they glad they're allies with such people.
Funny, funny stuff.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 28 2022 16:31 utc | 5
Stands to reason if there are 1200 graves for the 16th, the total of Polish KIA is a multiple of that.
Posted by: Peter Camenzind | Nov 28 2022 16:35 utc | 6
To the last Ukranian phase seems over. Now the last Pole?
Whose next??? There seems to lots of propagandised people in the Baltics also. Perhaps they would like their crack at it. Funny how the Americans, Germans and French seem disinterested..They train the cannon fodder so they can die properly for the CAUSE of democracy and values
Posted by: Assiem Mittal | Nov 28 2022 16:39 utc | 8
save the fancy graves for the two farmers who took an S300 projectile to the face. as for the mercs, they'll get turned into mince meat for a coked up comedian in kiev but suddenly they're concerned about "dignity". they died for yanks so let them be buried like yanks. twats.
Posted by: the pair | Nov 28 2022 16:43 utc | 9
Whose next? The main targets are countries that escaped the world war 2 culling. Polands a big prize for the depopulationists. Bigger is Turkiye with Hitler doppelganger erdogan, but the biggest prize is the US. Brazil is also a target as you can tell by its political turmoil. Its like observing black holes - you watch the secondary effects of their actions but you can't observe it directly, because anyone who does so , is suicided blackmailed or bribed off.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 28 2022 16:47 utc | 10
from DefenseNews
WARSAW, Poland — Poland’s Ministry of National Defence has effectively turned down Germany’s offer, for now, to deploy air defense systems along the neighbor’s border with Ukraine.
Officials here initially initially accepted Berlin’s gesture for Patriot launchers following a recent missile strike on Polish soil that killed two men. However, in an unexpected U-turn, Warsaw now suggests that Berlin deliver the systems to Ukraine instead to bolster that country’s defenses against Russia. . .here
Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 28 2022 16:48 utc | 11
Wasn't it the Ukies under Bandera that murdered tens of thousands of Poles?
So sad how forgetful and stupid people become when the brainwashing is pervasive and attention is distracted by shiny objects like phones.
I guess the silver lining could be Darwinian selection shapes the future.
Posted by: hedlykarok | Nov 28 2022 16:51 utc | 12
The Polish have a very strong "necrocult", that was conserved via Catholic All Saints Day but is much older (at least Indo European heritage) for sure. The once Celtic version thereof is now called Halloween and completely commercialized. To give you an idea how o Polish cemetary looks in the beginning of November - here is the cemetry of an average sized town (100k) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cmentarz_Komunalny_we_W%C5%82oc%C5%82awku_(1_listopada_2021_r.).jpg
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Cemetaries and graves and remembering is an important part of their culture.
Posted by: BG13 | Nov 28 2022 16:57 utc | 13
This posting made me think of one of the poems the Jesuits had me memorize
In Flanders Fields by John McCrae
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 28 2022 16:58 utc | 14
Posted by: Chris | Nov 28 2022 16:30 utc | 4
Do you mean the refugees created by the Bushs/Cheney/Wolfowitz/Rumsfeld crowd?
Or the ones form Obama/Trump/Biden crowd?
Don't remember Gates or Soros ever being elected......
Posted by: hedlykarok | Nov 28 2022 16:59 utc | 16
The dying trans Atlantic system aka. City of London-Wall Street financial cabal, demands obedience to the Gods of Olympus.The NATO axis centered in the same cabal of elites including Brussels demands the same horrid sacrifice on the alter of Ukraine. Think about it; the Great Reset using NATO to enforce it's "rules based order" by any means necessary. Be it war, pandemic, or the Green New Deal, population reduction is assured with the plans to contain or destroy Russia and China. Anyone wish to not oppose this satanic influence? It's your own ass you may save if you do.
Just wait until these Pole see a industrial lawnmower, riding over the graves cutting the grass in the ‘American style cemetery’
Posted by: Exile | Nov 28 2022 17:06 utc | 18
Let us please stop pretending the deaths are useless. They provide the government de jour with reasons to kill whomever they want whenever they want. This keeps them in power and satisfies those citizens that want to kill.
So many volunteers to eliminate that last strain of dignity in our world. Every nation has the exact location of the capitols and military infrastructure in every nation. When those are destroyed, we will have a better chance of creating a world without the same kinds of stress proscribed by our psycho-sociopath governments.
Is it time for peace and justice? It should be a nicer place. Very few deaths will be required to turn this ship around and sail into the dawn rather than sail out with the sunset.
Posted by: Tard | Nov 28 2022 17:07 utc | 19
hey, they're dying to keep America the hyperpower, might as well be buried American style.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 28 2022 17:15 utc | 20
Assiem Mittal | Nov 28 2022 16:39 utc Whose next???
Germany Is Preparing For A Potential War With Russia
The German military... released [a] secret 68-page document internally in September.
The document opens stating, “War in Europe is a reality again.” It predicts that the most likely scenario would be a conflict with Russia on NATO’s eastern flank.
Germany plans to become world’s third-biggest military spender
Germany’s military budget is expected to grow to nearly €60 billion by 2023, more than €70 billion by 2024, and eventually €80 billion by 2030.
(My emphasis). - For comparison: The budget of the Federal Minsitry of Research and Education for 2023 is 21.5 billion.
Posted by: OttoE | Nov 28 2022 17:15 utc | 21
Where are the victims of the 'Black Sites' buried? I've never heard of any survivors.
Posted by: par4 | Nov 28 2022 17:17 utc | 22
Posted by: OttoE | Nov 28 2022 17:15 utc | 21
they will need that much money just to buy lgng from the US. what a bunch of fools and sellouts.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 28 2022 17:23 utc | 23
to give some context - Polish fatalities in Iraq were 23 and in Afghanistan the Poles lost 44 soldiers - both were spread over several years
Losing over 1,200 citizens - nearly two orders of magnitude more in 8 months must be registering in Polish Society - Is there any sort of debate in the Polish Media?
There have been numerous reports of poles fighting in Ukrainian uniforms from the Russian side and the Russians had produced a mercenary clobber list in July with a claim of 643 eliminated Polish Mercenaries - but until now there has been silence from the Western Media - mainstream or alternative
Posted by: Aslangeo | Nov 28 2022 17:25 utc | 24
American economy expressed in a graveyard of subjects to capitalist authority.
Posted by: Wilikins | Nov 28 2022 17:25 utc | 25
Meh, Germany can plan all they want. They wont be able to afford their current military budget soon, let alone all this "jam tomorrow" spending.
Besides whose going to fight? They can barely maintain recruitment for an army half the size of old East Germany's with x4 the population.
As for the Poles. As others have said they're dying for NATO, so they can be NATO compatably buried...
Posted by: Urban Fox | Nov 28 2022 17:33 utc | 26
Population of Poland a bit under 38 million. 1200 departed and a larger number wounded likely noticed by most. I agree with Peter Camenzind @ 6 that the full number is higher.
Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 28 2022 17:34 utc | 27
"this is depressing, especially your last line.. all the needless death... i appreciate the info and perspective from poland.."
I agree 100% BUT remember that - if the Empire's plan for Donbass (and ultimately Russia) had come to fruition - these fallen soldiers would have been the executioners of Donbass civilians and soldiers.
That was the DC swamp plan all along : use an oversized and NATO-trained Ukrainian army to stab Donbass and the adjacent Russia area to death.
If you shoot an armed man just before he commits a mass-murder, are you a killer or a saviour?
Posted by: Nanker | Nov 28 2022 17:37 utc | 28
Is there another source for 1,200 Polish KIA in the Ukraine War? This is a very, very big deal. If there is ever a Polish/Ukrainian breakthrough in Crimea then I think Polish targets will be hit by tactical nuclear weapons rather than any targets in Ukraine. It makes more sense to hit Poland with nuclear weapons if the offensive in Crimea is to be stopped.
Posted by: speedracer | Nov 28 2022 17:38 utc | 29
@ Nanker | Nov 28 2022 17:37 utc | 28
well, that goes without saying too.. enjoy life while you have it...
Posted by: james | Nov 28 2022 17:39 utc | 30
Conflicted between "bullshit americanism" and "silly poles, play stupid games, win stupid prizes"
Posted by: Arganthonios | Nov 28 2022 17:40 utc | 31
“Step right up, take your place in the rules based grinder, there’s enough room for everybody !”
Too bad it’s just the peons that get ground up. It would be nice if bombs fell on the decision centers too.
Posted by: Featherless | Nov 28 2022 17:43 utc | 32
Agree with the comments about Poles dying in the Outlaw US Empire's War so might as well get buried with the format used by the Empire. For the statistically minded, it would be good to know how many Polish mercs went to Ukraine so the casualty rate can be ascertained. And if such heavy numbers of Poles are KIA'd, then what about mercs from other nations; where are they being buried?
Given Russia must liberate all of Ukraine, I await stories of the Romanian, German, and other NATO dead that surely must appear as few Ukrainians remain to become casualties for the Empire. I do recall writing soon after the SMO began that the Empire would wage the war well beyond the last Ukrainian to the last European. There's another side to the "World Order Z" essay, that of the Outlaw US Empire's fate when it loses its gambit to attain Full Spectrum Dominance, which is its own USSR-style collapse that few think possible at this juncture. What Biden and the other Neocons refuse to see is this battle is also existential for their form of Empire, and they've entered into it without being anywhere near properly prepared as we are now seeing. They've been feeding on their own BS so long they've forgotten what real food tastes like.
I sense an immediate collapse of the Ukrainian front line around Bakhmut. And other places. It seems to be snowballing now. The Ukes struggle to move troops around. Once the front line collapses the Ukes will have to retreat under fire.
Posted by: Leroy | Nov 28 2022 17:53 utc | 34
karlof @ 33
Can't give you an exact citation. Some time in past few weeks I heard Col. MacGregor offer a guess there were 10,000 Polish troops. Would have to watch hours of video again to give you something more solid. The Colonel had little confidence in the number, just ballpark.
The casualty rate is high and the number of troops is very high for an informal deployment.
Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 28 2022 17:54 utc | 35
From a ZH posting
Large swathes of Ukraine still remain in the dark, with emergency and utility crews currently racing to restore power and heat to major cities, at a moment Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is warning the public to brace for more major Russian airstrikes.Zelensky told the country Sunday night that the Russians "are preparing new strikes and as long as they have missiles, they won’t stop." Last week saw some of the most brutal and large-scale waves of aerial strikes on Ukraine's energy grid since the war began, leaving at least 10 million Ukrainians without power.
"The upcoming week can be as hard as the one that passed," Zelensky added in the fresh remarks. Even parts of the country that have had power must endure rolling emergency blackouts. "We understand that the terrorists are planning new strikes. We know this for a fact," Zelensky forewarned.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 28 2022 18:05 utc | 36
Of all the people in Europe that should not be in the 404 State fighting for it are the Poles.
I suspect most are there for money, but still the Poles should be ashamed to be there.
"Over 100,000 slaughtered with axes, pitchforks, scythes and knives: The Wołyń massacre started 76 years ago today and lasted for two years"
https://www.economist.com/eastern-approaches/2013/07/15/the-tragic-massacre-in-volyn-remembered
FOOLS !!!!!
Posted by: Tom_12 | Nov 28 2022 18:14 utc | 37
John Helmer today has a decent map of what a future Ukrainian DMZ might look like.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Nov 28 2022 18:17 utc | 38
@Neofeudalfuture
Yeah... that is what I was thinking. At least when you are an American mercenary you get paid very well. You just aren't going to get a nice ceremony if you are killed. I don't know about these Poles. They probably haven't figured that game out yet. They might be dumb enough to "do it for the country". lol
Posted by: goldhoarder | Nov 28 2022 18:27 utc | 39
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Nov 28 2022 18:17 utc | 38
Helmer's DMZ is in the wrong place. It should at the far western end of 404 State and not allowing any military anywhere, else it will be just like Poroshenko commented on Minsk II,
"In an interview on Ukrainian television joint organised with Radio Svoboda, Espresso and Nastoyaschee Vremya, Petro Poroshenko the ex-Ukrainian President said “The Minsk agreements gave Ukraine time to build and strengthen the Armed Forces and restore economic growth.” Poroshenko stressed that this was the main task, and it was achieved.
“We have achieved what we wanted. We did not trust Putin and still don’t. Our task was first to avert the threat or at least postpone the war. To give ourselves eight years to restore economic growth and build the strength of the Armed Forces. It was the first task – and it was achieved, “- said Poroshenko."
Posted by: Tom_12 | Nov 28 2022 18:36 utc | 40
@Leroy Have you seen pics of that area... looks like pics from WW1. Ugly stuff.
Posted by: goldhoarder | Nov 28 2022 18:38 utc | 41
oldhippie @35--
Thanks for your reply. If 10K deployed and 6K WIA/KIA, 60% casualty rate would be politically unsustainable, which is likely why Poland's leadership doesn't want to get any further involved than it is already.
FYI--I just posted to my VK the interview Lavrov gave for the film Nazism under Investigation, which as I suggest ought to be read alongside the "World Order Z" essay. Once you've read both, readers ought to understand why there'll be no DMZ in Ukraine--Russia really has no other choice than to liberate it completely, and that will hopefully send a message to the EU that it must abandon the Neo-Nazism it's being compelled to adopt by the Outlaw US Empire.
Soon there will be more Polish soldiers killed the Russian soldiers in this war. (6-10,000). But the Polish soldiers don’t even know what they’re fighting for.
Posted by: WQuaid | Nov 28 2022 18:44 utc | 43
this source Niezależny Dziennik Polityczny (NDP) has caused considerable concern, enough so that a paper from "Illiberalism Studies Program Working Papers no. 10 June 2022" has been published by George Washington University's Institute for European, Russian and Eurasian Studies. "DeZinformacja: Longstanding Polish-Language Influence Campaign Shows Its True Russian Colors" by David Mainor, (Global Authentication Project member bellingcat). lots of 'Flak and the Enforcers: The Fourth Filter' handwringing.
.
Posted by: annie | Nov 28 2022 18:52 utc | 44
Below is the title of a current Reuters posting
Exclusive: U.S., Russia have used their military hotline once so far during Ukraine war
Does this say how close to nuclear war we are or how well the scripted civilization war is proceeding?
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 28 2022 19:02 utc | 45
Empty streets and uncertainty in Russian-controlled Zaporizhzhia heart
Off topic but maybe important, and here we go again lots of rumors on TG and YouTube last few days about RF pulling out of Zaporizhzhia and the NPP. At this point it practically reads like a manual: Chapter 1 rumors, Chapter 2 quickly hand out RF citizenship to those that want it (read: evacuees) Chapter 3 flatly deny rumors Chapter 4 deny rumors but less flatly Chapter 5 pull out. We are at Chapter 3.
I didn't realize Melitopol was just 120k from Zaporizhzhia. A UKR bridgehead at Zaporizhzhia seems to me a disaster seriously risking cutting the Crimean land bridge area in two, AFU back on the Azov Sea, Mariupol at risk and the SMO reduced to just the Donbas.
So we are back to the same debate as Kherson, "ain't gonna happen" "It's a clever RF trap" "smart defensive move that'll pay off in the future". Strange war, but maybe all wars are strange.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 28 2022 19:10 utc | 46
Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 28 2022 16:48 utc | 11
The huns are anxious to make "Empire EU" offical, the more military they can station on other countries' soil the bigger they think their little weiners become. I predict twenty years before the voluntary breakup of Germany.
Posted by: BG13 | Nov 28 2022 16:57 utc | 13
Halloween is an Irish festival, not Polish, and "Celtic" (whatever you think that means) death traditions were very different. These elaborate graves and attendances are almost entirely Catholic, and can be found as far abroad as the Philippines and Mexico. Just because you yanks haven't yet steeled yourselves into embracing MacCannibalism to squeeze one last dollar out of the ass you're fixated on doesn't mean the rest of the world has forgotten how to respect the dead.
Posted by: DueWest | Nov 28 2022 19:18 utc | 47
... Strange war, but"— ‡ Nov 28 2022 19:10 utc | 46
Nazi mole ought to have stopped reading NATO scripts.
Posted by: Laurence | Nov 28 2022 19:22 utc | 48
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 28 2022 19:10 utc | 46
MOSCOW —A bloody and costly months-long conflict between the two nations ended in an unconditional surrender early Friday morning after Ukraine completed its successful takeover of Russia. “While much of the world’s attention moved on, our people continued to fight, and today we have finally achieved our ultimate aim of annexing all of Russia into the nation of Ukraine,” said victorious Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky from the Kremlin, where he personally presided as deposed President Vladimir Putin and other top Russian officials were led away in chains.
Posted by: Passerby | Nov 28 2022 19:23 utc | 49
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 28 2022 19:10 utc | 46
It's a clever RF trap" "smart defensive move that'll pay off in the future". Strange war, but maybe all wars are strange.
Kherson did turn out to be a clever trap and a clever defensive move.
Handing over the Zaporhizhia plant without decommissioning it first will be a very bad mistake - there is no strategic gain from doing that.
I sincerely doubt the Russians will withdraw from the plant.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 28 2022 19:29 utc | 50
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 28 2022 19:02 utc | 45
This would have been shoigu calling about the dirty bomb FF scare.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 28 2022 19:33 utc | 51
My blinking eyes.....WOW !!
German Statesman Slams EU Leaders' Spinelessness, Demands NATO's Dismemberment, Closure of US Bases
Germany has found itself reaping the consequences of the crisis in Ukraine, facing skyrocketing energy and food costs, recession and the danger of permanent deindustrialization as Washington and Brussels continue to call for more and more sanctions against Russian energy to try to “punish” Moscow for its military operation in Ukraine.The United States and its allies have spent the entire period since 2014 preparing for a confrontation with Russia in Ukraine, Oskar Lafontaine, a veteran German statesman with over forty years of political experience under his belt, has said.
“Of course, I also mean the conflict in Ukraine, which began with the Maidan putsch in Kiev in 2014. Since then, the US and its Western vassals have been arming Ukraine and systematically preparing it for confrontation with Russia. Ukraine thus became a de facto, if not de jure, member of NATO. This backstory has been studiously ignored by Western politicians and the mainstream media,” Lafontaine told Deutsche Wirtschafts Nachrichten in an interview published Sunday.[.]
“For more than 100 years, it has been the declared aim of US policy to prevent German business and technology from merging with Russian raw materials at all cost. It is perfectly clear that, if you take this history into account, we are dealing with a US proxy war against Russia which has been prepared for a long time,” Lafontaine said.Crop of Spineless Leaders
Lafontaine, who has worked under Willy Brandt, Helmut Schmidt, Helmut Kohl and Gerhard Schroder, and served as president of the Bundesrat, minister president of Saarland, minister of finance, and leader of Die Linke and the SPD, blasted the current crop of German and European leaders for going along with policies which have brought Berlin to the brink of disaster.
“It is unforgivable that the SPD in particular betrayed the legacy of Willy Brandt and his policy of détente, and did not even seriously insist on compliance with the Minsk Agreements,” the politician said, referring to the 2015 peace agreements meant to restore peace to the Donbass.
Lafontaine slammed the German government over its limp-wristed response to the destruction of the Nord Stream pipelines, which he characterized as a “declaration of war on Germany.” It was “pathetic and cowardly” of the federal government to try to “sweep incident under the carpet,” despite evidence that “the USA either carried out the attack directly or greenlit it,” the politician said.[.]
Walk safe Herr Lafontaine.
Source: Sputniknews. LINK FAILED
Posted by: Likklemore | Nov 28 2022 19:36 utc | 52
A few questions about this military cemetery in B's post arise:
- who made the decision to have a US-styled military cemetery in Olsztyn?
- why use such a cemetery style?
- why was the idea not introduced to the Polish public via the country's media, and agreed to by the public in a referendum, before the decision was made?
- on whose land is the cemetery to be located, and were the owners compensated adequately? What was the land's original purpose?
- will there be many more such cemeteries in Poland (and elsewhere; I believe Romania is sending large numbers of fighters to Ukraine) and who ultimately requested/ordered such cemeteries to be made?
This suggests that NATO is leaning towards a long war in eastern Europe against Russia that will be fought to the last Pole, then the last Romanian, then through all the other nations in that part of Europe (and even beyond, in Germany, Scandinavia and the Balkans perhaps), until NATO gets what the US wants out of Europe: land, resources, all up for grabs for US corporations.
Posted by: Jen | Nov 28 2022 19:39 utc | 53
all good questions Jen. if there are already 1200 killed (are some waiting to be buried) then burial for an additional 1700 might not last long. i wondered myself if they would have these scattered around several regions of Poland.
Posted by: annie | Nov 28 2022 19:47 utc | 54
DueWest @47:
Before Christianity arrived in Europe, most if not all cultures there had some form of ancestor worship. This could be expressed in reverence for the dead in many different ways, customs and traditions according to the culture. Pre-Christian Slavic and Baltic cultures had such customs and traditions revering their dead as did so many others across Europe.
These customs and traditions, were often absorbed into the Roman Catholic religion or Eastern Orthodox religions wherever these religions spread. This is what BG13 @ 13 is saying.
As BG13 also suggests, the widespread ancestor worship across many parts of Europe implies that the original Indo-Europeans had such beliefs as well, though that has to be demonstrated by archaeology and comparative studies of pre-Christian Celtic, Germanic, Slavic and Baltic cultures.
Posted by: Jen | Nov 28 2022 19:56 utc | 55
[email protected]
Lafontaine, a former Finance Minister and, I believe, leader of the SDP (now Scholtz's party) for five years has been on the right side ever since he resigned from the SDP and helped set up Die Linke. Die Linke has sold out to Zionism, Wokeism and "gi'sajobmister"ism.
But Oskar hasn't. There is a rich and old socialist tradition in Europe, as we have seen recently in glimmerings from France, the UK, Spain and Greece, in the right circumstances it could flower again and even fructify.
b's post is astonishing, if, as he says it can be verified in its details. It was Bismarck who said that The Balkans were not worth the life of a single Pomeranian Grenadier. What he would have said about Ukraine doesn't bear thinking about.
Poland is a special example, its government led by people who deserve our kind sympathy and constant nursing, but the Baltic states, which made Ukraine look like a liberal democracy until recently, are run by fascists. It is hard t believe that they have not succumbed to the siren sound from the Atlantic and trafficked a few brigades of squaddies into the fight for Freedom and the milking rights in Ukraine.
Then there is Canada with its diasporas barking for Russian blood...
Posted by: bevin | Nov 28 2022 19:57 utc | 56
Posted by: Laurence | Nov 28 2022 19:59 utc | 57
The notion of the "mercenaries" originating from a regular Polish army division is interesting. They might take hundreds or even thousands, this means they are de-facto backbone of Nato active/regular armies, and hence Nato is being de-militarized as well.
Effectively Nato is sending ground troops to battle without having the air superiority that all their doctrines rely on. This means that they theoretically are at a disadvantage and therefore also taking very disproportionate losses, as evident by the air strikes on mercenary hideouts and bases over past weeks. The mercenaries are Nato.
Posted by: unimperator | Nov 28 2022 20:02 utc | 58
[email protected]
Reverence for the deceased included the regular sacrifice of slaves, wives and other companions for the 'after life' in large numbers. What is known as 'suttee' in India was the custom in much of eurasia. There is a famous account from the Danube, by an Arab traveller, of one such ceremony. The details escape for the moment.
Posted by: bevin | Nov 28 2022 20:03 utc | 59
When I opened another tab, this headline was shown superimposed over a picture of Zelensky: "Buffalo Grocery Gunman Pleads Guilty to Murder, Terrorism Charges in Shooting of 10 Black Shoppers." I was glad I had just swallowed my coffee or it would have coated my keyboard.
What is happening in Europe will only speed up one thing, the breakup of the EU.
Apparently that's what the Americans and the British want.
The Germans for so many years drank the blood of the peoples of the South, mainly the Greeks, now they will be the first to suffer the consequences.
We are since 2009 ruined, we have lost 45% of the GDP, as if we lost a war completely (I am talking about the people, not the sold out elites).
Ukraine fighting a superpower has not lost such a percentage of GDP.
The day will come when Germany will pay for all the evil she has done.
Posted by: Athanasios | Nov 28 2022 20:09 utc | 61
@59 bevin and Jen - There are Kurgans, burial mounds, scattered across Ukraine. Hungary, too, from what I understand. It is the westernmost part of the Pontic steppe which the Scythian traveled across. They, too, left their mark in Eastern Europe.
Thanks for the interesting topic!
Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 28 2022 20:10 utc | 62
Tom_12
Thank you for your posts. Disgrace on Poland. John Helmer is wrong headed on his report - you cannot trust the west to agree and do anything.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 28 2022 20:10 utc | 63
After some weeks I am - the guy that is neutral to this war - back having some questions. They are not meant to be provocative - they are more "fact finding":
a. where is the russian offensive? If - as western msm reports - there is a "hidden" mobilisation (true?) what happened to the 300K troups? Still in training?
b. If the amount of killed/hurt Ukrainians soldiers is at least close to what the RF says, they will quickly run out of Ukrainians that can fight. So what is next to the West and it's "leaders"? It would make sense to get another country - or even Europe into this war from their pov. What are your thoughts about that?
c. The industrial base of the west seems to be superior. Do you think that Russia and Iran can - medium term - counter balance it? What do you think log term?
d. What do you think about the present situation? Do you think that Russia is playing an holding game until their 300K+ are ready to fight or is it the muddy grounds? Or what?
e. What do you think will be the endgame for RF, the Ukraine (or should I say UKraine^^) and the West?
f. Right now the western media is talking about 150 km/90 miles patriot missiles for Ukraine. I guess that could reach most of Crimea. Do you think that this would make a big difference?
Again, this is not a statement - it is a list of questions.
I would be happy for some answers.
Posted by: Bernd | Nov 28 2022 20:12 utc | 64
"Be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box.
SING IT, one two three..."
Country Joe and the Fish
Posted by: Old canadian | Nov 28 2022 20:14 utc | 65
This is now becoming by far the greatest conflict for european states since WW2. Generations of people to come will be affected by this.
How does the West intend to win this, I dont know. How do you contain a country of 150M people? Only regime change through a long harsh internal conflict. Like what they do in China and Iran (although it seems to me the Chinese call it upon themselves with zero covid). Is that their end game? Thats it? Thats the plan? To tire Russia, Iran and China? Break them apart internally?
Even the most die-hard pro-Westerner will soon realize there must be a better way. Even if Russia loses more territory, what will be taken will not be worth it with zero services and infrastructure (like Cherson).
Posted by: alek_a | Nov 28 2022 20:14 utc | 66
B, it's pure, distilled BS.
@Jen check links in point 3, you can find some answers. Referendum is an idiocy, see point 7 below
1. .dziennik-polityczny.com is not a Polish media outlet, it's merely Polish-speaking. It looks like a Russian propaganda psyop.
2. .dziennik-polityczny.com has been caught copying other media materials without permission. Here is OKO.PRESS complaining: link in Polish language, apply machine translation yourself. OKO.PRESS itself is not very credible in my eyes as it is a regular Soros outlet. It counts as MSM anyway.
3. The text in dziennik polityczny looks like a distorted version of notes that appeared earlier in the local web portal: link link It's clearly a business endeavor.
4. There is no outrage, neither locally nor across the country. Honestly, no one cares. Comments under those notes are mildly positive along the lines: "finally wasting less space". The cemetery you shown on the photo in OP is indeed typical nowadays but historically graves were much simpler and decayed much faster, random example. Thirty years ago quite a number of graves looked like that. Simple graves at war cemeteries are nothing unusual either link
5. Cemetery space is and will continue to be an issue because of longer lasting monuments. People are sometimes repackaging bones into smaller coffins after the body has decayed so it is possible to put more remnants into one grave cellar. This practice may become more common.
6. According to notes linked above the new cemetery is intended for general population. Since there is a military
unit nearby it's natural some military burials may happen.
7. Space issues or not but cremation is not very popular in Poland. I seriously doubt there is as much as 40% cremated burials. I know certain cemetery in Krakow where a wall of niches was built with the intention to put urns into those niches. It was a few years ago. I saw that wall a few weeks ago and still all niches were empty.
8. It's unimaginable to have all military burials centralized in one place in Poland, the idea is ridiculous at this point. Poles already travel a lot to visit their ancestors' graves so having yet another distant place to visit would be extremely annoying.
9. COVID policies, lockdowns and vaccines killed some 240 thousand people over 3 years. 1200 dead mercenaries will not be noticed. It's even less than the number of car accident victims. No amount of hot air can blow that number into noticeable size.
Posted by: pppp | Nov 28 2022 20:15 utc | 67
Don’t know if this was posted before but these propaganda directives from Ukraine are revealing:
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2022/11/instructions-from-kiev-ukraine-propaganda-messaging.html
I’ve noticed on some NATO propaganda accounts like ChrisO this sort of consistent messaging.
Posted by: Moaobserver | Nov 28 2022 20:16 utc | 68
psychohistorian | Nov 28 2022 16:58 utc | 14
That Flanders Field poem came to me when I saw a military vehicle filled with handsome, vibrant, youthful Ukrainian troops riding open shirted in the summer sun, waving, laughing, adrenaline flowing, as if they were on a sports team heading to a big game. Boom. The selfie camera recorded them dying. Life snuffed in an instant. The sickening futility played heavily in my mind for days. Still does. Of all the warporn I’ve watched since Feb, that scene for me will be the Ukrainian war. And I’d feel just as distressed if they were Russians.
That line “ Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,………[in Ukraine soil]
And instead of poppies, seemingly thousands of acres of sunflowers.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 28 2022 20:22 utc | 70
The Poles are going to get what they deserve, with all my hope, for the bigoted and violent behaviors towards Russians. You can't fix stupid, so more Poles are going to die for Washington just like the Ukrainians. All of this could have been avoided if NATO didn't have a bad habit of breaking it's word and pushing further to the Russian borders and turning a blind eye to the Minsk agreement. I can't do anything about it. I just don't want NATO to win after their dishonesty and promise breaking. If my country loses this conflict and has to change it's behaviors for the better, then I hope it loses because winning means more of the same or worse.
Posted by: Prometheus Defiant | Nov 28 2022 20:22 utc | 71
If you connect the dots from the previous news about the high number of foreign fighters, the dead from nazi poland must be much higher, at this moment many thousands plus probably >50% of that number as wounded. The death rate is very high when you're not fighting men in slippers, that is why I don't expect the wounded number to be higher than the dead.
The zombie former state of Ukr ran out of its own soldiers and now seems to be a mix of mercenaries, undercover natoids and Ukr soldiers of +60 age. nato tries to fake it some more but only retards believe their stories. Talking about retards, German president said today that 70% of Russian missiles are shot down by German weapons. I bet a lot of natoids actually believe it and will never believe that their shitty expensive weapons break after less than a day of usage. And Iris hits buildings with great success, missiles not so much!
Posted by: rk | Nov 28 2022 20:25 utc | 72
After reading some articles over the last few months which allude to Nato troops being in Ukraine in one form or another, I'm of the opinion that the conflict in Ukraine would've been done and dusted a month or two back, maybe more, if not for the intervention of Nato troops fighting in variable numbers, either posing as mercenaries or fighting directly alongside Ukrainian forces.
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Nov 28 2022 20:30 utc | 73
Don't forget that these are only the Polandistanis whose bodies were retrieved. Plenty of others must be charred piles of bones in an incinerated tank or rotting skeletons in a shelled trench.
And remember that these are only the Polandistanis. What casualties other NATOstanis and slaves (like Georgia) are taking aren't known (yet).
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Nov 28 2022 20:32 utc | 74
@Bernd | Nov 28 2022 20:12 utc | 64
As posted in the most recent Ukraine open thread, I suggest you read this article by John Helmer for one plausible possibility.
Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 28 2022 20:33 utc | 75
Laurence @ post 57.
Many thanks. However some of us do have failure posting links from Sputnik and RT. Fine when tested at our end but fails to post to MoA forum.
Bevin @ 56
Bevin, your contribution here is highly educative and is appreciated.
Lafontaine, a former Finance Minister and, I believe, leader of the SDP (now Scholtz's party) for five years has been on the right side ever since he resigned from the SDP and helped set up Die Linke. Die Linke has sold out to Zionism, Wokeism and "gi'sajobmister"ism.
But Oskar hasn't.[.]
The observation that Herr Lafontaine has worked under former Chancellor Gerhard Schroder, who is currently Chairman of the Board, Nordstream AG -Gazprom AG and board directors of Rosneft (that he (Lafontaine) slammed the destruction of Nord Stream pipelines denotes at least the topics of his interview and, going public, would have been discussed as a priority.
Oh, Wikipedia has this morsel:
After the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, Schröder was criticized for his policies towards Vladimir Putin's government, his work for Russian state-owned companies, and his lobbyism on behalf of Russia.
On 1 March 2022, Schröder's entire staff including long-time office manager Albrecht Funk resigned due to Schröder's alliances with Russia and Putin directly.[3] On 8 March 2022 the Public Prosecutor General initiated proceedings related to accusations against Schröder of complicity in crimes against humanity due to his role in Russian state-owned corporations.[4] On the same day his party initiated proceedings to expel him.
[5] The CDU/CSUgroup demanded that Schröder be included in the European Union sanctions against individuals with ties to the Putin regime.[6][.][.]
The ”Collective West” will keep the Ukraine war as distraction from the imploding financial system, "Whatever it takes." Death and destruction is simply collateral damage.
Year 2023. Buckle up.
Posted by: Likklemore | Nov 28 2022 20:33 utc | 76
Posted by: Bernd | Nov 28 2022 20:12 utc | 64
a) It takes about 4 months of training. It took so much for the Ukrainians troops to be trained by the West, as evidenced by the increased effectiveness and culminating in the offensives september.
b) Casualty statistics are very closely guarded - we dont know the true state on either sides. But in any case, if a NATO country enters officially, its a NATO-Russia war. That means that others will probably also enter on both sides. End of times stuff.
c) Thats not entirely that simple. While the sizes of the Western economies are indeed bigger, their GDPs are based on services mostly so that when compared to Russian GDP which is heavily weighted on industry the equivalence per capita is close. Dont forget, Russia has 150M people. Also, Western arms production is very expensive relative to Iranian, Russian and Chinese.
d) Nobody knows. I think that Russia was surprised by the ferocity and hatred of the Western reaction (I even think they were baited to start the SMO) and had to change strategy midway. I further think that the West stands no chance militarily as time progresses and Russia adjusts its forces to counter a de facto NATO force on its borders.
e) too many unknowns at the moment but barring a regime change in Russia, there will be a point where the West will lose motivation and resources
f) Patriot missiles are for air defense and very expensive at that.
Posted by: alek_a | Nov 28 2022 20:37 utc | 77
@74
Interesting.
And how would Russia maintain these remote sensing equipment and mines?
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Nov 28 2022 20:42 utc | 78
Posted by: Jen | Nov 28 2022 19:56 utc | 55
Posted by: bevin | Nov 28 2022 20:03 utc | 59
You've pulled every word of that out of your bums. There was no pan-European religion with common beliefs and ceremonies prior to Christianity. The Gaelic-Milesian "celts" for example had a mish-mash of different local deities which are hinted at in Togail Bruidne Dá Derga and narrowly escaped erasure by tutting monks. There's no indication any of these were ancestor based. Some of them may have been forces of nature but the Draí were doing some very strange things by all accounts.
These things didn't include building graveyards with elaborate monuments and individual markers however. The Anglo Saxons only started doing it after they observed Christians at it. Actually I'd be very interested to see either of you provide evidence of a direct link, or indeed any link, between Catholic grave ceremonies and pagan ones. The date may have been shanghaied but little else was.
This is a deeply mythologised, disrespectful and inadequate understanding of these ancient practices.
"necrocult"
Posted by: DueWest | Nov 28 2022 20:49 utc | 79
@ DueWest | Nov 28 2022 20:49 utc | 78 who seems to have stumbled into the MoA bar
Might I suggest you read The Dawn Of Everything by Graeber/Wengrow for example of pre monotheism burials...40K years of examples for you.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 28 2022 20:58 utc | 80
Posted by: DueWest | Nov 28 2022 20:49 utc | 78
that's not what either poster said. if you have an argument, make it honestly.
Jen--"Before Christianity arrived in Europe, most if not all cultures there had some form of ancestor worship. This could be expressed in reverence for the dead in many different ways, customs and traditions according to the culture. Pre-Christian Slavic and Baltic cultures had such customs and traditions revering their dead as did so many others across Europe."
"some form of ancestor worship" is not a "pan-European religion", and does not imply common deities.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 28 2022 21:01 utc | 81
@Bernd (64):
a. No, the mobilization is not hidden. How many new soldiers will come is unclear, but certainly way more than 300k. The offensive will come as soon as the Ukraine efforts are worn out. I
b. The west tries to lure more countries into the war. Like Kazakhstan. But NATO states (hopefully) won't join anymore.
c. The western base seems to be good. But in reality it is quite poor. The west no longer has the places, the people, the companies, or the knowledge to build large quantities of weapons or ammunition. And for Europe: They have not the energy nor the materials. :) A ramp up might be possible, but would take a couple of years. Over the last three decades the west given up their industrial base, the former workers retired and the machinery went to China. The west still can produce high quality stuff but not enough amounts to fight a huge war.
d. Yes. We shall not forget that the actual war is an economical war. The ukraine war is a plaything only. The true war doesn't happen in Ukraine but in West Europe.
e. The winter will show us.
f. There were already a lot of Wunderwaffen. Do you remember the Javlins, the Himars, The PZH2000 and all that other stuff?
I guess you are German (Bernd sounds German, but I can be wrong). Look into this: https://www.nachdenkseiten.de/?p=90830
It is an interview with Mark Milley an american general and advisor of Joe Biden. Mark Milley is literally terrified about the war. He advised the US government to stop the war as soon as possible since a victory is no longer possible and each prolongation makes it worse for the west. If you want to choose to ignore my summary of this interview, look into his arguments.
Posted by: Tuk | Nov 28 2022 21:01 utc | 82
are you sure those were 21 gun salutes, or were the Poles trying to shoot down "stray" Ukrainian missiles or drones? (HEYYO!)
Posted by: rjb1.5 | Nov 28 2022 21:04 utc | 83
"...What Biden and the other Neocons refuse to see is this battle is also existential for their form of Empire..."
Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 28 2022 17:46 utc | 33
Thanks, karlof1 for transferring to b's post on the Poland graveyard controversy your important link to the "World Order Z" article. I think it is indeed relevant and deserves attention on the issue, perhaps for slightly different reasons.
I would say that for Poland, the relevance is as expressed in the objection of their townspeople (part of the "deep nation" as described in the latter paragraphs of the article) to having their Polish national traditions existentially threatened.
The problem for the US with regard to Nato is that is not a fundamentally traditional relationship, nor is 'empire', per se. It is ephemeral in that respect, so there is nothing basically existential about it. Biden's separating his understanding of the errant missile's origin from the immediate Nato pronouncement is a signal he has at least a memory of that existential nationalism which waits for a rebirth (and Trump's version is not that either).
Posted by: juliania | Nov 28 2022 21:08 utc | 84
@ Bernd | Nov 28 2022 20:12 utc | 64
I can understand your concerns, and I am sure some others here will answer some other points, as I can some in no particular order.
f. Patriot is a pile of nothing, meant to shoot down Scuds (ancient missiles). Patriot system is very unreliable and obsolete anti-air system. No danger to Crimea at all. If you look at the map, there is about 800 km from the Polish-Ukrainian border where Germany offered to position those.
e. End game is the total defeat of Ukrainian Army, and/or unconditional surrender of Ukraine. Ukraine can be EU member but not NATO. It should stay neutral forever and have that written in its constitution.
NATO should wind down its engagements across the European continent. Russian Federation security concerns should be understood, addressed and fulfilled. Denazification of Ukrainian military and political structures should be jointly conducted with Russian, new Ukrainian government and Western representatives.
d. and a. are the same questions.
Russian offensive is not some mythical happening that will occur once and end it all. 300.000 mobilised are there to enlarge the force needed to liberate Donbas and mostly those are not ordinary bayonet combat soldiers, but specialists in artillery, mechanical infantry, and logistic military matters.
c.The industrial base of the west seems to be superior until it can use Russian cheap energy. Without that it is an expensive, downsized, uninteresting competitor.
Iran, China Russia, Saudi Arabia and some others overwhelm the combined West industrial base and energy by factor of 20 if not more.
b. You can train a certain amount of soldiers over the certain period of time. So if the number of killed or wounded is higher than of those that are in training and cueing for it and that is the case, one looses the war. That is happening right now – Ukraine is loosing this war big time.
West has feeble politicians at the moment and failed to recognize the importance of having a good neighbour with lots of resources like Russia is.
You can hitch-hike from Lisboa to Moscow and further on, even to Vladivostok. You cannot hitch-hike from New York to Amsterdam.
That is the basics that every European politician should recognize and understand first and then can be ready to move on.
Alles klaar? Good.
Posted by: whirlX | Nov 28 2022 21:08 utc | 85
B's article says: "With plans for 1,700 dead Polish soldiers, beyond those 1,200 already buried,... " gives the impression he's speaking of mercs buried in this new style "Olsztyn cemetery".
This gives is a false impression, as shown by some of the comments.
The quoted new report spoke of "over 1,200 Polish citizens died in Ukraine" during "10 months of bloody fighting". Meaning, dead/buried from all over Poland so far.
The article did not say 1,200 mercenaries had already been buried in this "Olsztyn cemetery" (it's not even built), or in Olsztyn overall.
At the end of the article's quote it then says (based on city council plans only)
- "There will be 1,700 of such burial places only in Olsztyn. "
It did not state how many Ukrainian mercs had already been buried in Olsztyn so far.
AS the article (trans) says: "regional media reported plans to create burials in Olsztyn similar to American war cemeteries"...
NO such a cemetery has been created yet. It's only media reports of plans to do so by the local council. There is not enough information in the article to really know how far advanced this project is or if it has been given final approval.
Irrespective of the number of total dead/wounded due to Ukraine fighting so far, a number of 1,700 plots for a new cemetery in a town of 167K may well be planned to handle expected future growth needs over several decades. We do not know anything for certain from this very short article/news report.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out the article about the news report is not entirely accurate or clear on the facts.
fyi see article trans in full - https://dziennik--polityczny-com.translate.goog/2022/11/23/niechlubny-koniec-najemnicy-ktorzy-zgineli-na-ukrainie-zostana-pochowani-w-amerykanskich-grobach/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
--- --- ---
IN general-
Whatever is happening, or is not happening now, and into the future in the town Olsztyn I truly don't care because it doesn't matter one way or the other. I am not going to draw any other conclusions about that news report or jump to any hasty assumptions about any other "related" topic ... including how many dead, how many mercs exist, what Polish govt decisions about Ukraine are, or how many Polish mercs are being killed or wounded up to now or into the future.
Actually if we knew all these things what difference could it make to the war or our understanding of it anyway? I don't see how it would when there are far more important drivers, such as what Putin & the Mil decide to do.
Olsztyn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olsztyn of 167k people, and this news/article about plans for a new cemetery in Olsztyn is of no importance to me and I suspect not in the bigger picture either. We do not even know if it is going to happen yet. Nor could "this story" possibly be used as a logical yardstick (factoid) to muse or predict or conclude anything about any subject including the war in Ukraine from Poland's perspective.
To me it's an unnecessary distraction (an anecdotal side-issue curiosity) from what really is important about Ukraine (or Poland's involvement), because it is totally irrelevant to anything going on there and the geopolitics driving it. It really does not tell us anything about anything that might be useful to know or keep in mind.
But that's just me and what I think is likely even less relevant. But whatever, there it is anyway. I thought it important to share what I think is not important. ymmv, I'm fine with that too.
Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 28 2022 21:08 utc | 86
Posted by: Jen | Nov 28 2022 19:56 utc | 55
It's also prevalent amongst orthodox Jews.
They worship dead rabbis galore.
https://www.jns.org/ivanka-trump-prays-at-lubavicher-rebbes-grave-ahead-of-election/
https://www.magnumphotos.com/newsroom/religion/pilgrimage-to-uman/
That's why Moses don't have a marked grave, it's said.
Posted by: Anne B | Nov 28 2022 21:13 utc | 88
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 28 2022 20:58 utc | 79
That's my Christmas present to my fourteen year old grand-son. The Norwegian Version.
Grabers "Debt - the first 5000 years" - is also a must.
Posted by: Anne B | Nov 28 2022 21:19 utc | 89
Poland needs to smuggle its dead into the country in the dead of night, like the US.
I am happy though that the EU & co are expressing their concern for the dead from the "Holodomor", now 90 years ago. like americans caring about abortion, caring equally about womb and tomb, custodians of past and future.
Posted by: rjb1.5 | Nov 28 2022 21:19 utc | 90
The true strength and greatness of a nation is it's industrial base. Here in the usa, this has been mostly exported for the profit of the ruling class. The usa can no longer support an extended war with a peer nation. Our manufacturing base is gone! To re-establish manufacturing in this country, we would have to start in the basement: education, infrastructure, etc. and build from the ground up. This would take decades. I think it was Paul Craig Roberts who estimated that the usa has lost 85% of the industry that it had at the end of WW2. The machinist trade was ubiquitous when i started in the trades 55 years ago. Not any more. The only thing that the west can do nowadays is to run low level terrorist wars. what a pethetic end to a once great, united , and productive country.
Posted by: a machinist | Nov 28 2022 21:24 utc | 91
@ Anne B | Nov 28 2022 21:19 utc | 87 with the OT comment about Graeber...thanks
I am lucky enough to have a signed copy of Debt The First 5000 Years. When Graeber came to Portland, Oregon during Occupy time to give a speech, I rushed up to him after and got his autograph before he was whisked away.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 28 2022 21:28 utc | 92
osted by: a machinist | Nov 28 2022 21:24 utc | 89
I think we still lead in propaganda and porn. USA!
Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 28 2022 21:28 utc | 93
German publication Die Welt, had apparently announced the future death of Zelensky on a "November 29th rocket strike", and then retracted it calling it a "technical glitch".
If Ukraine is losing interest in headlines amid persistent 30-40 % inflation rates in the west, this might be a last ditch effort to kick things into a higher gear.
Posted by: unimperator | Nov 28 2022 21:29 utc | 94
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 28 2022 20:58 utc | 79
It's genuinely rare to see a tract openly trying to rewrite history to fit a nakedly political narrative without a sliver of self awareness, but I suppose if one were to search for this kind of document, here we are. The most recent such effort I read was Gibbon's 1789 masterpiece of creative fiction. Extraordinary.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 28 2022 21:01 utc | 80
Instead of interpreting the entrails of other peoples' comments perhaps you might reach into your own store of wisdom. No? Quick circle the wagons, it's someone who know what he's talking about.
Anyway I've had my say, carry on.
Posted by: DueWest | Nov 28 2022 21:29 utc | 95
The industrial base of the west seems to be superior.
Posted by: Bernd | Nov 28 2022 20:12 utc | 64
Could you state clearly what you mean by this?
What is your opinion of the industrial base of Europe and the Anglo-Saxon countries, compared to Russia together with China?
Posted by: Passerby | Nov 28 2022 21:29 utc | 96
Posted by: DueWest | Nov 28 2022 21:29 utc | 93
if you know what you are talking about it should not be necessary to misinterpret other peoples' comments, imo.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 28 2022 21:31 utc | 97
@44 "DeZinformacja: Longstanding Polish-Language Influence Campaign Shows Its True Russian Colors"
That's some pretty sick stuff there.
Note to self never read another item from illiberalism.org To think these people, no lowlifes and fools, are over paid and then that all adds up to GDP. What a waste of electricity. YOur taxes help these people get degrees at university then come out spew this garbage for the rest of their lives.
So who is funding the il-iliberalism side of things? the anti-neoliberalism anti-neocon side? Where are the powerful rich think tanks going up against empire's hegemony and their abuses, their theft, and endless wars?
There are none. No one is funding such things. No one at all. There are no pro-humanity pro everyday people think tanks. None.
Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 28 2022 21:34 utc | 98
... "It is the spirit that quickens. The flesh profits nothing." ...
"necrocult"
Posted by: DueWest | Nov 28 2022 20:49 utc | 78
Posted by: Laurence | Nov 28 2022 21:34 utc | 99
@ Anne B | Nov 28 2022 21:19 utc | 87
its a great read - long but fascinating.. i am sure they will enjoy it..
Posted by: james | Nov 28 2022 21:39 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
thanks b... this is depressing, especially your last line.. all the needless death... i appreciate the info and perspective from poland..
Posted by: james | Nov 28 2022 16:22 utc | 1