Ukraine’s 2030 World Cup bid likely dead after country’s FA chief arrested
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/29/ukraine-fa-head-arrested-over-and-money-laundering-allegations

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Nov 29 2022 19:47 utc | 4

Russia proper attacked….once again.

Right now, the Armed Forces of Ukraine are shelling the Sudzhansky district, about 11 arrivals have been recorded, there is a hit on the power supply facility – Governor of the Kursk region

https://t.me/intelslava/42058
On top of that Patriot missiles are about to be given to Ukraine, probably early 2023. = time is really closing in on Russia’s ability to wage air war.

NATO is discussing the transfer of Patriot air defense systems to Kiev, said NATO Secretary General Stoltenberg

https://t.me/intelslava/42048

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 29 2022 20:05 utc | 6

Since I often turn to Consortium News for information on the Ukraine conflict, I figure this isn’t off-topic.
https://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/consortiumnews.com?www=1
For some reason the site is down today and one wonders whether it’s a technical accident or targeted action by the Evil Empire.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Nov 29 2022 20:13 utc | 8

this post needs to be read by others.. it was at the end of the previous open ukraine thread… thanks poster 600w…
“Russia is forced to take military action against Ukraine. Ukraine is a failed state. It has been racist since 2014. This anti-Russian racism is promoted by its supporters. In addition, there has been a massive population and capital exodus. Only the armed forces have been invested in. In order to continue to secure at least this support, the fate of Ukraine was tied to US geostrategic interests.
For experienced observers of world events, it was therefore already questionable in 2014 why Russia did not intervene during the Maidan coup. The development of Ukraine was foreseeable and resembled the emergence of the Third Reich. The SA/Right Sector seized the Strasser by force and allowed its supporters access to power that could not have been won by way of democratic elections, which were due in 2014.
Afterwards, the profiteers got rid of those thugs who could not be controlled or even sought undesirable redistribution of the oligarchs’ wealth. The press and radio were brought into line, the opposition banned and persecuted. The seizure of Crimea was Russia’s logical consequence to protect its strategic security interests from the delusional Ukrainian leadership. Ukraine then escalated further along its intellectual one-way street. Russia, however, could not bring itself to a complete solution to the problem. As Porochenko explained, Minsk1 and Minsk2 saved the coup government.
Then Ukraine continued to escalate domestically. After arming the Ukrainian army, it began to prepare its deployment. Russia made a last attempt to reach a diplomatic solution. This did not succeed, as the USA had other interests and so did Ukraine. The consequence continues to this day. Why is that? The support of Ukraine by the USA and the Nato mob has made a quick resolution of the conflict in Russia’s favour more difficult. Russia likes to fight this war as much as you like to kill your beloved dog when it has rabies. Russia’s military is not of the size, nor the doctrine, to conquer large land masses. First and foremost, it has to secure a huge national territory, with a budget that is ridiculously small compared to that of NATO.
The USA also tries to dominate the international relations of states. Russia has little to counter this media and propaganda power. Concentrating an army of 2-3 million men on the Ukrainian border would not have gone unnoticed in terms of reconnaissance. It could also have been a temptation for Nato to weaken Russia’s defence potential with a first strike. So for now they have sunk in and are clawing their way in, conserving their own resources and depleting those of the enemy.
Russia must coordinate its actions in such a way that a further escalation by Nato can be countered.
The destruction of Ukraine within one day is still considered possible by the US leadership. The fact that it has not happened so far also reveals a lot about Russia’s goals. There have also been no attacks on NATO states, although their actions clearly violate the principle of neutrality. Nato is a party to the war. It has only been spared so far because an appropriate reaction by Russia would open up the Third World War. The European governments in particular are not behaving very responsibly towards their voters, as they are risking security and prosperity in order to serve the USA in a leading role in its project of world domination. For me, Russia is the fire brigade in a city, trying to achieve maximum benefit with limited fire-fighting resources, while the pyromaniac USA looks where it can safely do further damage. As long as the US exists in its current form, the world will have to live with the problem. Ukraine, however, will soon be history. The conflict, in its constructed senselessness, is an expression of the West’s helplessness to live in a socially sustainable way.
Posted by: 600w | Nov 29 2022 19:51 utc | 271”

Posted by: james | Nov 29 2022 20:27 utc | 10

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 29 2022 20:05 utc | 6
PAC-3 has a very poor track record. It was designed to shoot down straight flying SCUD-missiles in 1970-80s. The Russians have been knocking out NASAMs radars with their own anti-radiation missiles already, usually during the larger long range strikes. PAC-3 is probably even inferior.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 29 2022 20:33 utc | 12

james | Nov 29 2022 20:27 utc | 10
Looks like someone else does a it of thinking. With the Russian partial mobilization, most american type thinkers believe Russia will go on a mighty offensive that will end the war in Ukraine.
I cannot see why Russia would want to end a good think. This is bleeding the EU white. EU is starting to realize that while they have been watching Russia, their economy has been destroyed and US is now looting what is left.
All Russia has to do is constantly look like it is on the verge of defeat and EU and NATO will destroy themselves in Ukraine. Perhaps Russia will clear the Donbas in the winter or perhaps it will withdraw a bit to ensure the EU continues to be sucked into the black hole of Ukraine.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 29 2022 20:51 utc | 14

Posted by: OohCanada | Nov 29 2022 19:36 utc | 1
Unlike WW2 nazis and collaborators who got it “easy” as video recordings were rare and filtered (censored) over the years to hide the truth, what happens now is thoroughly preserved and available to masses instantly.
Historians of the future will not have too much trouble finding video connections between nazi killings and their sponsors in all these western countries.
Just like sparsely recorded Korea was US’s great fight and “victory” yet higly recorded Vietnam was huge defeat and psychological drama.

Posted by: Abe | Nov 29 2022 21:08 utc | 16

Anyone know anything about this? I’d never heard of it.
https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/11/29/ukraine-first-operator-precision-bomb/

Ukraine is poised to become the first operator of Boeing’s ground-launched small-diameter bomb (GLSDB) that can hit targets up to 150 kilometers (93 miles) away.
The US is reportedly considering sending the long-range precision bomb to Kyiv to help counter Russian offensives.
The GLSDB would allow Ukrainian troops to strike far behind Russian lines, reducing the possibility of being counterattacked.
It would also enable defending soldiers to hit valuable Russian military targets previously out of reach.
The US has repeatedly rejected requests to send the 300-kilometer (186-mile) Army Tactical Missile System to Kyiv over fears of provoking a wider war with Russia.
Instead, Washington is considering the smaller-range GLSDB to address Ukraine’s request for long-range weapons.
The long-range missile could be delivered to the war-torn nation by 2023, according to documents obtained by Reuters.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Nov 29 2022 21:16 utc | 18

Why are Ukrainians so highly motivated?
I ask myself, watching how they eageryi die in waves.
I think they still believe that by supporting NATO and even dying for The West is higher motive then defending Ukraine, even defending their separate identity.
I talked with one of them. He believes that Russians in the past “prevented them to become part of the West, as a superior civilization.
So, Ukrainians are dying for a dream of belonging to a higher and more superior civilization.

Posted by: margo | Nov 29 2022 21:21 utc | 20

Russia is finding other customers for it’s resources. They don’t need EU customers anymore.
The customers for EU goods will have to find other suppliers because EU industry is shutting down.
If sanctions are lifted, those customers have new supply and Russ has new customers will they shift back to the EU? I doubt it. Too much trouble unless deep discounts.
It will take a long time for the EU to get back where it was.
It has also shown itself unreliable. Any little thing might shut down it’s industry.
I think a lot of the damage is near permanent.
I’ve said for years: Russia doesn’t need anything the West provides. Sanctions spur development in Russia and make it stronger.
Russians have been through a lot. They don’t GAF if McDonald’s leaves. In fact it’s better because the new analogue is Russian owned.
Lesson of history is don’t mess with the Russians.
This war is a result of corruption in the West. Particularly the US.

Posted by: Rabbit | Nov 29 2022 21:37 utc | 22

james@21, thank you for re-posting the WOZ. the previous links posted for some arcane reason i couldn’t get to connect yesterday. yours thankfully has been bookmarked. thank you also for the 600w, repost. agreed, very good post deserving full attention. to 600w, i believe, as many have previously said, that russia in 2014 was not yet ready to take on nato, & she knew that’s what it meant. she went into syria, reclaimed Crimea as you said, bt more would’ve overextended her. weapons were on the way, if not yet war tested, she was preparing for the sanctions bt not entirely self sufficient. thank you again, 600 & james, & peterau1 as always stay safe & well, we need you.

Posted by: emersonreturn | Nov 29 2022 21:49 utc | 24

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 29 2022 21:54 utc | 25
EU is essentially turning into a failure in many similar aspects as Ukraine. But without a war.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 29 2022 21:58 utc | 26

Duncan Idaho @ 4

Ukraine’s 2030 World Cup bid likely dead after country’s FA chief arrested

Used to be a time when you’d come across too obvious or crazy stuff and say to yourself, “you can’t make this shit up”! Now, it’s everything you read.
Like Oryx & Crake the apocalypse will be ridiculous.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 29 2022 22:03 utc | 28

EU is essentially turning into a failure in many similar aspects as Ukraine. But without a war.
Posted by: unimperator | Nov 29 2022 21:58 utc | 26
What was Hemingways bankruptcy observation.
It starts little by little.
Then happens all at once.
That’s Europe’s path culturally and economically.
And heading for the last bit .

Posted by: jpc | Nov 29 2022 22:09 utc | 30

Ukraine used to fire Himars missiles at the Kakhovka dam, upstream of Kherson. After the Russian withdrawal from Kherson, this seems to have stopped. So the plan was breaking the dam and flooding Kherson all along. Right?

Posted by: Passerby | Nov 29 2022 23:04 utc | 32

As Navy SEAL Richard Marcinko once said, “Always treat the enemy as your enemy because he will invariably treat you that way.”
He also said, “The second rule of SpecWar is: Never give a sucker an even break….You never stop moving; never give up any space. Don’t allow the opposition any
edge at all.”
Taking advice from puffed up yanks is no use. The Russians are just gonna exterminate the Ukies now.

Posted by: Wokechoke | Nov 29 2022 23:18 utc | 34

I think Russia made two mistakes – the first in 2014 (as admitted by VP) in not at least helping to take Mariupol and trusting the Europeans to be faithful partners in working out a peaceful solution. The second was in believing in February that there would actually be someone to negotiate with, and so they held back from the full on attack on infrastructure they were capable of.
I think these are related and due to the inability to conceive how far Ukraine had drifted (been pulled and subverted actually) from Russia. In 2014 Russia was still completely fine with an independent Ukraine as they didn’t understand how insidious and effective the US MO was in it’s unrelenting efforts to turn Ukraine into a Russia-hating base to do with as they chose. They still believed Ukraine was essentially part of Russia. Likely the main contacts were with Ukrainian oligarchs like Yanukovitch who believed they could straddle the fence, and were either duplicitous or naive in their stance toward Russia and their understanding of US objectives. Now they will be forced to destroy the Ukrainian state and pick up what they can from the wreckage, and this is a very bitter pill to swallow.

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 29 2022 23:23 utc | 36

@ Passerby | Nov 29 2022 23:04 utc | 32
Ukraine used to fire Himars missiles at the Kakhovka dam, upstream of Kherson. . . .So the plan was breaking the dam and flooding Kherson all along. Right?
Bridges were targeted, and the Nova Kakhovka Bridge is adjacent to the Kakhovka dam.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 29 2022 23:39 utc | 38

the pessimist @ 36

I think Russia made two mistakes

Russia made one mistake, breaking up the USSR the way it did, it’s lucky to have got out alive and in one piece though that’s not determined yet. What it should have done back then is transition slowly, Chinese style, playing the USA for fools gathering up their technology, industry, and money then once strong and secure rubbing it in their face investing their dollar reserves “the USA’s money” in a million man army and in the soft power Belt & Road Initiative. Hindsight is 20/20.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 29 2022 23:41 utc | 40

How comes that European mind in philosophical sense became so degraded, emptied?
Is it just mass consumption?
Is it long term effect of capitalism?
Or is it mass media?
Look at Germany, or France, or Italy.
There is nothing, there is nothing any more.
Just emptiness, the empty space ready to swallow any ideological concept from Hollywood, any order from Washington related to Ukraine.
Europeans are no-people, less then animals?
No self respect, even no self interest.
But, how could that happened so fast and efficient?

Posted by: margo | Nov 29 2022 23:46 utc | 42

I think Russia made two mistakes – the first in 2014 (as admitted by VP) in not at least helping to take Mariupol and trusting the Europeans to be faithful partners in working out a peaceful solution. The second was in believing in February that there would actually be someone to negotiate with, and so they held back from the full on attack on infrastructure they were capable of.
Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 29 2022 23:23 utc | 36

Not taking Mariupol in 2014 has cascading disastrous effects to this day.
What happened early in the SMO? The land bridge had to be secured, and that meant taking Mariupol. But the Ukronazis were holed up in there and it took two months.
Those were the two most critical months, when progress elsewhere slowed down while the Mariupol operation was completed, because insufficient forces were allocated overall and there wasn’t enough for more than that.
So instead of closing the big Donbass cauldron that was being talked about early on, the Russians got bogged down doing urban warfare in Mariupol. Which was the goal of the Ukrainian resistance there, and it was achieved.
Meanwhile Ukrainians mobilized and western weapons started flowing in.
It is still not clear to me what prevented a simple encirclement and a siege while continuing to push elsewhere, but I am neither a military expert nor do I have access to internal Russian military info, so what do I know.
But the empirical results are obvious to everyone – while Mariupol was eventually taken, in the medium term it was a win on the Ukrainians, and the negative effects of it are still felt to this day.
Also, the way it was taken – it was largely destroyed – and the billions that will now have to be spent on rebuilding it seem to have cooled off the Kremlin’s enthusiasm for any further operations involving taking large cities by force. And there are several dozens of those left on the list…
All this comes downstream from the disastrous decision to abandon the city in 2014.
P.S. Same applies to the rest of the Donbass. We talk a lot about the fortifications, but often in a way that leaves the impression that such fortifications can be built anywhere. Not at all true. In WWII both sides had major trouble taking the Donbass because the nature of it – dense urban agglomeration that is also highly industrialized – makes it perfect for turning it into a fortress. So had serious action been taken in 2014 and had the Ukronazis been pushed to beyond the Slavyansk-Kramatorsk-Pokrovsk-Mariupol line, it would have been much harder for them to build such impenetrable fortifications. It’s empty flat agricultural fields all the way to the river after that — sure, you can build trenches and pillboxes, but you don’t have the cities and factories to anchor those, and you will be rolled over eventually much more easily than in the core Donbass region.
P.P.S. Imagine the DNR and LNR were left even without the support that they did receive and the war (which was going to start inevitably) started at the 2013 Russian border and the whole of the Donbass had to be taken. Putin recently said something like “What is happening now is inevitable and had we waited, we would have to still fight this war but from a much more unfavorable for us position”. Yeah, no s***. But the same applies if you run the tape backwards in time – the current position is more unfavorable than the one in 2014 was, and it was needlessly made more unfavorable than it had to be by not going in properly from the start and not mobilizing on time

Posted by: Tbx | Nov 29 2022 23:57 utc | 44

@Tbx | Nov 29 2022 23:57 utc | 44
In defense of Russian hesitancy in 2014 I don’t believe they were prepared at that point to weather the international fallout from an overt military intervention. They did assist, but most of the fighting was done by local forces. Also, as I said above, I think they sincerely believed that Ukraine could be ‘fixed’ as an independent, non-hostile state – it made such perfect economic and social sense for it to take that path…

Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 30 2022 0:07 utc | 46

How comes that European mind in philosophical sense became so degraded, emptied?
Is it just mass consumption?
Is it long term effect of capitalism?
Or is it mass media?
Look at Germany, or France, or Italy.
There is nothing, there is nothing any more.
Just emptiness, the empty space ready to swallow any ideological concept from Hollywood, any order from Washington related to Ukraine.
Europeans are no-people, less then animals?
No self respect, even no self interest.
But, how could that happened so fast and efficient?
Posted by: margo | Nov 29 2022 23:46 utc | 42

How do we know it was all that different in the past?
Sure, we had some peasant rebellions in the Middle Ages, but mostly the average person put up with ruthless exploitation without much resistance.
And then in the 20th century we had, first, WWI in which the youth was sent on suicide missions to die in the millions with absolutely no sense to it all. For that every single member of the elites should have met his end no later than 1915, in the hands of the masses rising in revolt against those sending them to industrial slaughter for the purpose of their petty internal fighting games.
Yet nothing of the sort happened in Western Europe. It only happened in Eastern Europe.
Then you had WWII. On one hand you have the German masses, who in the span of less than a decade were turned into willing executioners of the largest genocidal program in the history of humanity. How did that happen just like that? Then on the other hand you had all the other countries in Western Europe that they conquered, where “resistance” was measured in days and even hours (compared to e.g. half a million partisans in Yugoslavia), i.e. there was really none at all. Again, how did that happen?
So when you look at it like that, I don’t see all that much out of the historic norm in Europe.
The big change is the degeneration of the elites.

Posted by: Tbx | Nov 30 2022 0:09 utc | 48

@Peter AU1…
I think you are spot-on with your analysis….
“I cannot see why Russia would want to end a good think. This is bleeding the EU white. EU is starting to realize that while they have been watching Russia, their economy has been destroyed and US is now looting what is left.
All Russia has to do is constantly look like it is on the verge of defeat and EU and NATO will destroy themselves in Ukraine.”
very soul destroying but correct….
In the meantime of-course mafia extortion/weapon sales/human trafficking will
increase exponentially….the sad ukrainian victims will be dying in the streets….
starved,raped,organ harvested and frozen.
Walking to the border to me seems utter nonesense.
there will be fields of bodies.
If the russians invade properly in three or four weeks…on solid frozen ground
they will be the saviours of the average ukrainian.
prison camps will be formed for the enemy combatants…but at least they will be fed
and “safe”…until their previous behaviour has been investigated.
The general populace will then be returned to their homes and utility repairs established.
Ukraine will become totally russian…right upto the Polish border
There will be no invasion from NATO/USA…all utter rubbish.
As for a nuclear exchange….BS.

Posted by: harryash | Nov 30 2022 0:18 utc | 50

LightYearsFromHome @40–
Russia, the nation, didn’t make any mistakes. Those holding power chose treason. See my comment @43. The peoples of the USSR suffered immensely with as many dying as in the Great Patriotic War. Then there was the rape of resources by the Plunderers. I was fortunate to have access to specialist publications from 1992-96 that allowed me to have an insider’s view of what was being done to Russia and Russians–millions died while Clintonites, Yeltsin and the Kleptocrats laughed and laughed. When Yeltsin attacked the Duma in 1993, I knew he was just another Yankee comprador. I was very surprised he wasn’t eliminated before he resigned.
Putin has authored much of Russia’s resurgence, but he’s had lots of help. Today, Putin presided over a seminal event for Russia, the Tenth All-Russian Anniversary Congress of Judges, which has a new challenge–establishing Russian courts throughout the liberated areas. As usual, a great deal can be learned from reading the transcript of the proceedings. Russia’s foundational laws/constitution remain in flux as what’s unsuitable is discovered and expunged and what’s needed is added. Putin’s meeting with the Chairman of the Supreme Court Vyacheslav Lebedev is likewise also educational.
Russia like China are Civilizational Nations yet are also developing nations whose potentials are feared by the Plunderers, so the latter attack them. Fortunately, Russia and China are a team and have been so since 2001; one of Putin’s first acts was to cement the Treaty of Friendship with China. At the time, did Putin think events would occur as they have? Given his initial moves, no. Is Putin satisfied now? I doubt it. He just mentioned some of his hindsight misgivings publicly. How many leaders are willing to be that open? Very few.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 30 2022 0:32 utc | 52

In defense of Russian hesitancy in 2014 I don’t believe they were prepared at that point to weather the international fallout from an overt military intervention. They did assist, but most of the fighting was done by local forces. Also, as I said above, I think they sincerely believed that Ukraine could be ‘fixed’ as an independent, non-hostile state – it made such perfect economic and social sense for it to take that path…
Posted by: the pessimist | Nov 30 2022 0:07 utc | 46

First, whether the whole of the LDNR was secured or not would have made absolutely no difference with respect to the international fallout. The big item there was the annexation of Crimea. Mariupol is a place the vast majority of the rest of the world has never heard of (also, it was called Zhdanov for half a century too, during the time most people in positions of power today were growing up, and that doesn’t help with awareness of it either), and Slavyansk, Kramatorsk, Severodonetsk and Lysychansk are on the scale of Russia itself tiny places that even many in Russia aren’t aware of.
Second, that Ukraine cannot exist as an independent, non-hostile state should have been obvious since the early 1990s. And it was in fact obvious to many in Russia. There was a video circulating some time ago of Eduard Limonov (who is a bit crazy, but that is irrelevant here, his insight on the matter was prescient) talking about how there will be a war like in Yugoslavia. That video was from 1992:
https://twitter.com/NinaByzantina/status/1580565535288307712
It had been known where things are headed for a very long time. One would have to be a complete idiot to think they could be steered in a different direction peacefully.
For two reasons:
First, there is no such thing as “Ukraine” as a natural entity, and certainly not in its current borders. You might put it together from Galicia and Volynia plus Zhytomyr and Vinnytsia, and have it be a slightly bigger version of Moldova, but that’s about it. And it would always be militantly anti-Russian because that is the whole basis of its existence – if it is not anti-Russian, then what is it? There is no answer to that question. But in the borders it was given during Soviet times, it is even worse – you have an Ukrainian minority that has to somehow convert the Russian-speaking majority into the same militant anti-Russian mindset it has, or it will be assimilated itself. After which the purpose of the existence of Ukraine of course becomes doubtful.
BTW, this is what happened in Belarus – Lukashenko took power in 1994 and nipped in the bud whatever nascent Belarussian nationalism there might have been there (which never had the history and deep Nazi roots of the Ukrainian one to begin with, as no part of it had ever been part of Germany or Austro-Hungary), as a result right now everyone there speaks Russian, and it is not at all clear what the purpose of Belarus existing as a separate state from Russia is.
Second, when Putin took power, his first major task was to reign in the oligarchs. For there would have been no positive development without subjugating the oligarchs to the state. That the relationship was the other way around is a major reason why the 90s were such a disaster, and it is also the major reason why the West is degenerating as it is ever since the neoliberal revolution of the 1970s. Ukrainian oligarchs saw what is happening and got seriously scared that they are next in line. Which is why you really see the place turn into Banderistan on an accelerated trajectory only after the mid-00s – in the 1990s that stuff was still marginal. It was only later on that the local oligarchs needed to cut off the connection with Russia in order to preserve their own power so they invested heavily in nationalism, and also sold out to the West as a platform for NATO military action against Russia.
For those reasons, the “independent, non-hostile state” neither made any sense nor was it ever in the cards.
Again, this was all obvious to everyone following the events at the time, so what kind of morons were inhabiting the Kremlin to not see it or not act on it on time?

Posted by: Tbx | Nov 30 2022 0:35 utc | 54

[31] See, this is why Russia screwed up by not completely eliminating every single Ukrainian S-300 and Buk AD on day one. Ukraine had 250 S-300’s and 72 Buks. It should have been easy to take every one of them out on day one, their positions identified by Russian ISR before the war.
It’s very difficult to locate SAM systems when their radars are off. It appears Ukraine was moving at least some of their systems around at the start of the war and the time between Russian ability to spot them and then hit them before they move is very limited.

Posted by: Bill Smith | Nov 30 2022 0:45 utc | 56

Orchard1 @49–
Russia’s primary military alliance is the CSTO. Then there’s the CIS. Most important is the Union State that marries Belarus and Russia, with the possibility of others to follow. The SCO has an anti-terrorism component that makes it a quasi-alliance. Its series of treaties and pacts with China and Iran as many have described go beyond mere military alliances. Several years ago, Patrushev told Occupied Palestine and the Outlaw US Empire that Iran was considered under Russia’s nuclear umbrella. I could add more, but you asked about alliances.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 30 2022 0:47 utc | 58

@Tbx 45
On a point of order, the largest genocidal program in history is capitalism. The group experiencing:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Are the proletariate who are converted into serfs or eliminated.

Posted by: Hermit | Nov 30 2022 1:12 utc | 60

a little bit from Gilbert Doctorow’s most recent, as he and his wife are back in their apartment in St. Petersburg (from Brussels where they live) and he reports some strong initial impressions, among them the climate and freezing temperatures now that winter has set in:
https://gilbertdoctorow.com/2022/11/29/feet-on-the-ground-in-st-petersburg-first-impressions/
Feet on the ground in St Petersburg: first impressions
“…This is not to say that I have developed a soft place in my head for the Ukrainians and their government of murderers and thieves in Kiev. No, but I deeply regret the loss of life among civilians in Ukrainian cities as the entire energy grid there is reduced to rubble in the coming weeks.
The remaining young and prosperous Ukrainians will get in their cars and land at our doorstep in Brussels and elsewhere in the EU. I think of the splendid Jaguar with Ukrainian license plates that was briefly parked in front of my Brussels house a couple of times in the past few weeks.
But the old widows, the infirm, the young children in Ukrainian cities will die in droves in their unheated apartments and no one but propagandists playing to the EU leadership for more funds to be embezzled will take note….”

Posted by: michaelj72 | Nov 30 2022 1:22 utc | 62

emersonreturn @61–
Thanks for your reply. We might make it to Russia & China when I turn 70 in 3 years. I just wonder if we’ll be allowed to leave. The Archive has a massive collection of Soviet books of all types–children to math to all science fields. That Russian/Soviet science and math continued is one of the main reasons why Russia is what it is today.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 30 2022 1:36 utc | 64

@ emersonreturn | Nov 29 2022 21:49 utc | 24
thanks.. back at ya….
@ karlof1 | Nov 29 2022 23:56 utc | 43
enjoy the show! that will be fun!
@ ReinhardvonSiegfried | Nov 30 2022 1:37 utc | 65
that was me quoting a poster named 600w… i think it has been racist for long before then, but it became much more problematic since.. if you think the smo is about getting rid of nazism, then maybe it isn’t just a talking point?

Posted by: james | Nov 30 2022 1:45 utc | 66

reply to: emersonreturn | Nov 30 2022 1:16 utc | 61
Long cold Winters and isolation are like carborundum to an active mind.

Posted by: jr | Nov 30 2022 1:47 utc | 68

Bill Smith | Nov 30 2022 0:38 utc | 55
Why do the Saudis buy patriots?
Bill.. U$ weapons sales to Saudi have absolutely *nothing* to do with weapons.
It’s a feature of the petrodollar. It’s a money laundry, cycling and transferring USD.
That U$ weapons sold to Saudi + the wider Middle East and Africa are crap, is a feature, not a bug.
Israel, which controls U$ foreign policy, prohibits its adversary countries [which is all countries in its region..and beyond] having effective weapons.
That’s why wars in the last 50 years have only been fought against ill-equipped (rusty kalashnikov) military/combatants in sandals + civilians (“collateral damage”).
Confronted with a designated “near-peer” military, U$NATO is failing badly.
That’s why Ukraine is being used as a proxy, a NATO-but-not-NATO cutout.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 30 2022 2:11 utc | 70

Melaleuca | Nov 30 2022 1:46 utc | 67
If you haven’t got Firefox browser, install that then download the plugin to take you past the twitter sign in block. Grab the plugin to bypass paywalls as well. With those plus using reader view where needed I can bypass most anything.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 30 2022 2:25 utc | 72

RSH31. No matter how its slices Russia is humanist. 100% reading what they r throwing down.

Posted by: Stonedthing2 | Nov 30 2022 2:29 utc | 74

Is Putin satisfied now? I doubt it. He just mentioned some of his hindsight misgivings publicly. How many leaders are willing to be that open? Very few.
Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 30 2022 0:32 utc | 52
IMV Putin has been the preeminent statesman in the world for 20 years bar none. He does not need to be perfect nor be seen to get everything right all the time. I believe Mandella is the only cone who comes close to Putin.
Putin and the team he built around him, brought into the Presidential group literally saved the Russian people and the nation from disaster. Any mistakes he has or ever makes are forgivable.

Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 30 2022 2:32 utc | 76

ThusspakeZarathustra | Nov 30 2022 2:26 utc | 73
The EU is the eastern part of the Empire. Consider the relationship between Washington and Brussels along the lines of the relationship between Rome and Constantinople, that should help you make sense of this.

Posted by: Klaatu | Nov 30 2022 2:44 utc | 78

SeanAU | Nov 30 2022 2:32 utc | 76
Putin is the preeminent political leader of the 21st century. Puts Mandela out of the picture
😉

Posted by: Klaatu | Nov 30 2022 2:51 utc | 80

Russia like China are Civilizational Nations …
Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 30 2022 0:32 utc | 52
Saying, or rather Parroting, Russia like China are Civilizational Nations is to say nothing at all.
Unless you are to explain precisely what you mean by that comment and in what context. Just because Crooke or Escobar are using such a term recently does not make it useful or necessary, or even true what you believe it might mean.
The United Kingdom is a civilisation state. So were the Romans, Greece and the Mongols. France is a civilization state, so is Portugal, Spain and Germany and the Netherlands and Belgium. India is a civilization state as is Pakistan, Egypt, Afghanistan, Japan, Korea, and Mexico. Thailand is. Denmark is. Poland is. Africa is a modern day collection of civilisation states.
All it is a new jingoism that a few easily influenced and manipulated heads have lifted up on high and turned into a (meaningless) meme as if it like wow amazing, an Earth shattering realization of epic proportions. It isn’t.
All it is a throw-away line that really should be literally thrown away like rubbish.
Seriously, anyone who is buying into this guff, such as Karl, are being had. There is nothing to it. Nothing at all.
It does not explain it does not define anything of worth or value above what is already the case regarding geopolitics. It’s not new. It changes nothing at all. It is redundant!
IT was a phrase made up by a chinese academic in a talk to help frame a bit of history to highlight something to the CPC politburo into a perspective, a FRAME they could understand and get his contextual point – it was a Metaphorical Concept not a reality, not a fact … this idea, notion, this phraseology is not the second coming of christ.
It’s only an adjective for christ’s sake. Shudder.
(talk to the hand sean, talk to the hand.)

Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 30 2022 3:19 utc | 82

Always a redeeming feature is the up-to-date latest refs to translated Maria Zakharova, Dmitry Peskov & Lavrov et al. Easy to find when and what Putin’s been saying.
These people always have something meaningful to say. They talk things that matter, are important worth knowing about. Not so the self-serving opinion hacks pretending they are the critical go-to intermediaries. That without them no one could understand a damn thing.
Just the facts maam, just give me the facts.

Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 30 2022 3:29 utc | 84

t.me/The_Wrong_Side
Available no account…> [grim]
“Some soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine report problems with the supply of equipment for the winter period. Ukrainian soldiers are now forced to wait for new arrivals of equipment.
The military of the Armed Forces of Ukraine reports that he is accustomed to the fact that at the time of receiving shoes there are not enough shoes of the right size.
Also, soldiers of the Ukrainian army report that they cannot be issued a new uniform – they are given a worn version or a uniform that is unsuitable for use. Another Ukrainian serviceman notes that for three years of service in the army of Ukraine, he has never seen that uniforms and equipment were issued on time.
This suggests that even under the conditions of supplies from Western countries, there is still not enough equipment for the Ukrainian army.
With the arrival of winter, the Armed Forces of Ukraine begin to have serious problems.”

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 30 2022 3:40 utc | 86

Maria Zakharova

To Stoltenberg, Borrell and Belodomovsky for memory:
From a briefing by NATO Press Secretary Jamie Shea. Brussels, May 25, 1999:
Question: If you say that the [Yugoslav] army has a lot of generators, then why are you depriving the country of 70% of not only electricity, but also water supply, because, according to you, [NATO] only strikes on military installations.
Answer: Unfortunately, the command and control systems also depend on electricity. If Milosevic really wants his citizens to have water and electricity, all he has to do is accept the NATO terms and we will stop this campaign. Until he does, we will continue to attack targets that supply his army with electricity. If this has consequences for the population, these are his [Milosevic’s] problems. Water supply and electricity are being used against the people of Serbia, we have “cut off” them forever or for a long time for the sake of the lives of 1.6 million Kosovars who have been driven from their homes and whose lives have been seriously damaged. Not everyone will like this difference, but for me this difference is fundamental.
“>https://t-me.translate.goog/MariaVladimirovnaZakharova/4231?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

A small historical point about the USA’s and their cohorts about this “thingy” called the International Rules Based Order : Rules are only rules when you willingly submit to them.
There has been loads of submission going on for a very very very long time.
IT’s good to see a few nations out there are developing a back-bone. Finally.
“Evil prevails when good people do nothing.”
— Erin Gruwell
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Unknown/Anonymous
“When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.”
– Edmund Burke
“Tolerance is a crime when applied to evil.”
-Thomas Mann-
There has been a lot of evil going down while quite a few nations did nothing to stop it. They even at times facilitated it.
Just sayin’- People in glass houses and all ….

Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 30 2022 3:45 utc | 88

[re civilization state] IT was a phrase made up by a chinese academic in a talk to help frame a bit of history to highlight something to the CPC politburo into a perspective, a FRAME they could understand and get his contextual point – it was a Metaphorical Concept not a reality, not a fact … this idea, notion, this phraseology is not the second coming of christ.
Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 30 2022 3:19 utc | 82
I was thinking about this off and on all day. I was wondering how one could define nation state versus civilizational state. You raise this too by pointing out that many nation states today are or were civilization states like France and UK.
But what is the difference, if any for one thing.
And then later one can discuss how significant that is or not.
Some ideas:
A civilization is a general overall polity that is shared, with local differences, by many nation states. For example ‘Christian Europe.’ They kept fighting each other but were part of the same overall European civilization.
A civilization has a way of defining the times. This is the Age of Roman civilization; or the British post industrial revolution civilization. Or Chinese civilization which varies slightly from dynasty to dynasty. It’s a combination of people, customs, philosophy and above all culture. A civilization is a culture, a way of being, of seeing, of living and dying. All that stuff goes on in small countries too but they don’t tend to define the Age.
We are in the modern distance-shrunk era so we can have several civilizations at once. That’s not new, but the way they rub elbows so frequently is very new.
That said, the difference between an ex-civilization state and a no longer civilizational state like the UK is marginal. So I’m not sure if I’m buying this new geopolitical talking point.
I think all that is going on is that the RoW is uniting to resist a bully, and the more they come together the more they realize they outmatch an adversary they have
a) been bullied into regarding as friend and protector when it is neither and
b) believed it so powerful that resistance is futile.
This is a huge sea-change but am not sure if it represents a truly profound change so much as a changing of the guard but the same overall civilization will remain.
Because what were are in now and have been for decades is a post-war global civilization. With few exceptions all world leaders wear the same suits and ties. The countries have banks to manage money. We all drive cars and have electric lights and computers and drive to work and have houses or apartments. The whole world is doing the same basic stuff in the same basic way.
We already have a one world civilization basically. But civilizations comprise many different states and peoples and right now they are not in accord about how to go about things.
War is not a necessary way of settling differences.
But it sure is a very old one.
Hopefully we won’t need more than the current borderland proxy skirmish.
But one way or another the balance of powers is going to change.
Am not yet convinced that there will be multiple civilizations though rather a new working arrangement so that each nation can find its rightful place in the already exising world civilization which comprises various nations who have very different polities, languages and cultures.
Mandalas within mandalas, layers and levels within layers and levels.

Posted by: Scorpion | Nov 30 2022 3:51 utc | 90

Klaatu | Nov 30 2022 3:45 utc | 87
emersonreturn just gave a first hand of what it was like in Russia in 90s for exceptionally talented Russians. Something like that is very rare. I will repost it here for in case you couldn’t bother going back to read it.
……………..
karlof1@52, thank you for your links & VK space. i too was aware of the 90s rape, & corruption prior & during. my deceased husband was a mathematician working on many papers with russian mathematicians, they met @ conferences, mostly in europe/middle east, sharing papers, ideas, as well he was invited to important russian conferences. in the 90s b/c things were so incredibly difficult & o/c the work was the most important thing for all involved, we worked hard & long to bring several out for tenured track jobs in new zealand, canada & italy. all were heartbroken to leave bt couldn’t see how they could continue to stay. when last attending a conference in moscow & novosibrisk, we encountered physicists who b/c they hadn’t been paid for over a year were being courted by various parties to sell precious materials & information. desperation was palpable in many discussions. i have never lost my love & respect for the russian mind or heart. when we arrived in novosibrisk there was one computer, the elevator could hold 2people & one bag. the conference was for 2000 mathematicians from everywhere. i looked @ my husband & asked how did they make it into space…he replied on the basis of duct tape & their minds. it’s why our library holds 40 shelves of russian math books.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 30 2022 3:55 utc | 92

@ margo 42
Germany was trusted by the US with a little military psyops, the total destruction if Syria, France got Libya. You know dad has allowed me to fire his gun.
Germany and France even agreed to take refugees from their acts of destruction.
What they didn’t understand , either of them, is that USUKIS planned a much larger scale of destruction, for which the Europeans took the psychological blame.
It’s never a good idea to do Faustian pacts
with the devil. On payday, they want your soul,and USUKIS are waiting collecting now.
Britain’s soul was collected in 1979 with Thatcher.They have long been on the zombie side.

Posted by: Giyane | Nov 30 2022 4:08 utc | 94

@ Klaatu | Nov 30 2022 2:51 utc | 80
That’s funny, because I also said:
I believe Mandella is the only cone who comes close to Putin.

Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 30 2022 4:12 utc | 96

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 30 2022 3:55 utc | 91
Hypersonics is one tech they are ahead in. Weapons based on “new physical principles” is what they really lead in. You don’t use a weapon that you don’t know for sure your enemy doesn’t have. It has been tested to see if they noticed it and identified it…

Posted by: wind | Nov 30 2022 4:17 utc | 98

Scorpion | Nov 30 2022 3:51 utc | 90
There is much a like about your comment. I hope many get to read it and ponder what’s being said there.
I really liked this line:
I think all that is going on is that the RoW is uniting to resist a bully..
I too think it is really that simple. There is no need to wax lyrical about “civilisation states” because it is all fluff, imo. Sure there are complexities and nuances and all kinds of ways to discuss the endless aspects and details possible – to get down into the mud and thrash about – but to what end?
Like you above I would put it this way:
What we have here people is the classic case of an Abuse of Power – by the USA and it’s cohorts.
That’s it. Deal with that rationally and confront it, and the problem will solved.
The obvious “Speak Truth to Power” is a given! Few ever do. China and Russia, forget everyone else, are still not doing that now.
My last point is also simple – had the whole world acted courageously and in unison like CUBA has acted since the 1950s then the USA would not now be a globally abusive power, and it would not have an economy no bigger than Texas, nor 1000 military and CIA bases all over the world!
What is happening now in Ukraine would not be happening.
Cheers

Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 30 2022 4:22 utc | 100