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November 19, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-202

Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Posted by b on November 19, 2022 at 16:18 UTC | Permalink

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The government telling citizens to move abroad for the winter to lessen the burden of electricity for the country. The west knows Ukraine is done now. You see multiple politicians in multiple countries trying to back away from and paint Zelensky in a bad light now. The gig is up. There's no saving face, Russia made it clear there is nothing to discuss. The SMO will continue until all goals have been achieved. All while western Europe collapses at the same time. Everything the US touches turns to shit!

Posted by: Watzov | Nov 19 2022 16:37 utc | 1

Captain obvious here- the longer the war goes on, the worse things will get for Ukraine and the collective west. Ukraine- the gift that keeps on giving.

Posted by: ctiger | Nov 19 2022 16:42 utc | 2

From RT:

https://www.rt.com/russia/566831-ukraine-capture-crimea-chances/

Ukraine could capture Russia’s Crimea by the end of this year, the country’s deputy defense minister, Vladimir Gavrilov, has said. In an interview with Sky New on Saturday, Gavrilov stated that what is known as a ‘black swan’ – or a sudden and unexpected event – could bring about Kiev’s victory. 

“I think Russia can face a black swan in their country, inside Russia, and this can contribute to [our] success with Crimea,” he said, adding that there was “also a military option as well with some kind of combination of forces, resources and something else.”  

“We can step into Crimea, for example, by the end of December. Possible? Possible. Not ruling out that it can be so,” Gavrilov added. 

When asked what type of a black swan event could happen in the coming months, Gavrilov suggested that Russian President Vladimir Putin could “disappear, for example, due to some reason, physical and political,” or that the Russian public could become “disillusioned” with the situation on the battlefield.  

Echoing a previous statement by Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky, Gavrilov said that Kiev would resume negotiations with Russia “only when they’re ready to leave our territories.”  

Expressing optimism about Ukraine’s chances, Gavrilov stated: “My feeling is that by the end of spring this war will {be} over.” 
....

I guess this point of view is not shared universally... The US is currently starting to sing a different tune

Posted by: daniel_s | Nov 19 2022 16:43 utc | 3

Over 80% of evangelical Christians voted for Republicans during the midterm election. Majorie Taylor Greene is the most well known "proud Christian" in Congress and against US involvement in the Ukraine War. The Russian global media arm should try to communicate a message of solidarity with evangelical Christians. The Russian domestic media tells people the war is against satanism or Western cultural influences aimed at breaking up the nuclear Christian family. Evangelical Christians feel the same way about mainstream American culture persecuting them. I do think it's a mistake to refer to it as satanism because the name is silly. It would be better to call it for what it is directly. Jewish academics and intellectuals are promoting the break up of the Christian nuclear family in the US and Europe to more easily control those societies. It's a much more clear message to domestic and US audiences to declare Jewish power as the leading force behind the Ukraine War and cultural wars in the Western world. Most Jews will probably leave Russia before the end of the Ukraine War so criticism of Jewish power won't drive a wedge within Russia.

Posted by: seveneleven | Nov 19 2022 16:48 utc | 4

Ukraine, most likely, attacked gas pipeline in Russia:
"Fire in Leningrad Region caused by explosion on gas pipeline"
https://tass.com/emergencies/1539281

Once again Donetsk attacked
"Ukrainian forces shell Donetsk firing 8 rockets from Grad MLRS — DPR mission "
https://tass.com/emergencies/1539285

Not to mention past day Ukraine attacked 3 different regions in Russia proper!
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/11/ukraine-switching-the-lights-off.html?cid=6a00d8341c640e53ef02af1484db84200c#comment-6a00d8341c640e53ef02af1484db84200c

Ukraine seems to have some plot for Crimea too.
"Ukraine could seize Crimea before year ends – MOD 
Kiev may capture the peninsula from Russia if helped by a ‘black swan’ event, Vladimir Gavrilov claimed "
https://swentr.site/russia/566831-ukraine-capture-crimea-chances/

It is long overdue for Russia to change their tactics if they plan to stop all these offensives going on right in front of them.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 19 2022 16:51 utc | 5

@ daniel_s | Nov 19 2022 16:43 utc | 3
from RT:
Echoing a previous statement by Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky, Gavrilov said . . .
from The Onion:
Ukraine Completes Successful Takeover Of Russia

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 19 2022 16:52 utc | 6

The complacent arrogance of Russia and its fan boys is exactly why a sudden naval landing in Crimea might unravel the war. Or a strike that makes muscovites feel vulnerable.

Do you suppose the Russians have any troops in Crimea outside sevastopol?

A feint into Russian Territory like belograd with a another one to cut the land bridge at the same time as a naval landing? The Russians aren't exactly organized enough to handle that and they may very well decide to run. It was said in ww2 the Germans could sometimes provoke sudden collapses with just whiff of danger. Obviously it didn't work most of the time but they are kinda nervous and superstitious people.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 16:54 utc | 7

Naval landing in Crimea? On what, rafts?
The only way to Crimea is through the land bridge. Good luck with that.

Posted by: siberiancat | Nov 19 2022 17:00 utc | 8

I believe that the point being made that the "west" (or US and minions) is running out of weapons is somewhat missing the point - the US has huge financial advantage and can pay for more weapons and in fact doing so will benefit important people greatly and others as well. This is where I take exception to commentary of Berletic and Mercouris and favor Ritter.

What the US has done is to eliminate its inventory of obsolete, crap but also himars and stingers etc. I suspect the US will use military spending to boot its re-industrialization agenda. Of course this may cost more than they anticipate (almost certainly by order of magnitude) and it may take too long and may produce unsatisfactory results. They will attempt to leverage technology at expense of serviceability - f35 is exhibit "a".

In the meantime Russia also has some work to do.

Russia may overplay the rope a dope - sometimes best defense is a good offense. The problem there is Russia has no interest (or even capability) in occupying Ukraine - a heavy anchor.

Posted by: jared | Nov 19 2022 17:03 utc | 9


aval landing in Crimea? On what, rafts?
The only way to Crimea is through the land bridge. Good luck with that.

There you go literal complacent arrogance.

Nato will supply the ships and sailors to drop off Ukrainian cannon fodder onto the shore

If this represents Russian thinking its for sure going to work.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 17:04 utc | 10

@Neofeudalfuture - Actually made me laugh. What do you imagine would happen to this this fantastical armada of HATO ships? Hint - every last one of them would be sunk.

Posted by: Librarian | Nov 19 2022 17:13 utc | 11

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 17:04 utc | 10

An attempt to "invade Crimea" would play into Russian hands by being able to sink thousands of sailors, troops and boats on the sea. Or worst case, isolate the landing and rip it to shreds with artillery, like they did to several landings in Kinburn spit before that.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 19 2022 17:19 utc | 12

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 17:04 utc | 10

Nato will supply the ships and sailors to drop off Ukrainian cannon fodder onto the shore

And pray tell how those NATO ships will get through the Straits, that Türkiye has closed to military vessels from non-Black Sea nations, under the Montreux Convention?

Posted by: Peter Williams | Nov 19 2022 17:20 utc | 13

I'm not sure how old this is. But it is very good, and M K Bhadrakumar makes much better reading than the paranoid fantasies of Zanon and neofeudalyawning.

"..The golden rule that security issues do not fall within the purview of G20 has been broken. At the G20 summit, the western countries held the rest of the participants at the Bali summit to ransom: ‘Our way or no way’. Unless the intransigent West was appeased on Ukraine issue, there could be no Bali declaration, so, Russia relented. The sordid drama showed that the DNA of the western world hasn’t changed. Bullying remains its distinguishing trait.

"But, ironically, at the end of the day, what stood out was that the Bali Declaration failed to denounce Russia on the Ukraine issue. Countries such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey give reason for hope that G20 can regenerate itself. These countries were never western colonies. They are dedicated to multipolarity, which will ultimately compel the West to concede that unilateralism and hegemony is unsustainable..."
https://countercurrents.org/2022/11/the-g20-is-dead-long-live-the-g20/?swcfpc=1

Posted by: bevin | Nov 19 2022 17:21 utc | 14

Nato will supply the ships and sailors to drop off Ukrainian cannon fodder onto the shore

If this represents Russian thinking its for sure going to work.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 17:04 utc | 10

I don't know how anyone can think this.

First, NATO would have to get ships into the Black Sea past Turkey. That could conceivably happen just not covertly.
Second, they would have to go into an Ukrainian port (Odessa?) and load up.
Third, this would be an overt (vice covert and deniable as done currently) act of war.
Fourth, Russian missiles will strike the NATO vessels. Russia is maintaining a reserve for use in case NATO goes overt in this war.

Have you never seen historical details on how hard it is to execute an amphibious landing against a hostile shore? Especially without air superiority?

The Ukrainians have not been able to execute special forces successful attacks across a river to Zaporizhzhia. And you think they can take Crimea with a US Navy amphibious group?

The Ukrainians know that unless NATO overtly rolls in to this war they have no chance. Why they will generate false flags until the cows come home.
But even then I think their odds are slim.

Posted by: mtw | Nov 19 2022 17:22 utc | 15

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 17:04 utc | 10

well, you got the cannon fodder part right. I'm not sure how much cannon fodder, much less armaments, one of these babies will carry, though.
https://www.amazon.com/H2OGO-Turtle-Ride-Inflatable-Float/dp/B000QF5HAM

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 19 2022 17:22 utc | 16

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 19 2022 17:19 utc | 12

Ukraine also attempted several landings on Snake island during May, but several of their helicopters were shot down with spec ops and some of the landing boats. Ukraine gained upper hand with the French caesar cannons, not through attempted landings, and Russians just packed and left since it's isolated atoll and hard to supply.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 19 2022 17:23 utc | 17

Hard to see how Sevastopol could be attacked by some surface naval fleet - the modified jetski drone swarm attack failed already.

I would expect a massive attack from Zapo/Kherson area to try and take Melitopol. Maybe even an offensive into Russia proper from Sumy or Kharkov.

This does rest on the idea that Ukraine is building up a super-army for offensives and that Russian forces are really incompetent. I wouldn't rule either out of course.

Posted by: moaobserver | Nov 19 2022 17:27 utc | 18

Ok, ok fine. Believe its impossible but that's an error in thinking and is exactly why when the impossible happens people freeze up. You've gotta stay agile.

I will say though that I'm betting putin let's the nato armada through its almost certainly in Romania and bulgaria already anyways. But Putin will blink and let nato land the Ukrainian troops. This is my future telling.

Good luck out there.

Your gonna need it.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 17:29 utc | 19

Librarian@11...Russia has been complacent,sleepwalking through the first seven months of the SMO, politically made military mistakes. Politicians directing war policy, is Putin a better General than Zelinsky? Does the worst fighter in the world, battered, beaten but still standing at the bell of the 12th round lose? Crimea is a major red flag. This is Russia's SMO to loose. It does seem, just my observation, that someone(s)
in Russia have sidelined the politicians, letting the military get on with ending this thing.

Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Nov 19 2022 17:32 utc | 20

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 17:29 utc | 19

This kind of theme is not impossible, in theory. In WW1 Churchill (first sea lord) wanted to send UK navy to St Petersburg to load up Russian troops and land them into northern Germany. But it was impractical, and almost impossible idea to both UK and Russia. Later on Churchill intended to force their way through Dardannelles straights by landing a force to clear out the shore defenses and drive battleship dreadnoughts into the Marmara Sea and force Ottomans out of the war. Then they could send supplies to Russia through it.

Will USA force its way and fleet through Dardanelles now, can they force Turkish government to fold? They will certainly try, but Russians will see that event coming thousands of miles away. They (UK controlled "ukrainian sea drones") will continue sneaky drone attacks trying to damage or sink Russian ships in the Black sea.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 19 2022 17:38 utc | 21

@3 daniel_s - Well, Ukraine's deputy defence minister, Garilov the garrulous, may be right about something,

Expressing optimism about Ukraine’s chances, Gavrilov stated: “My feeling is that by the end of spring this war will {be} over.” 

I think the optimism part might be wrong, though.

Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 19 2022 17:41 utc | 22

Lol If Crimea get seriously attacked it would for sure be after WW3 starts. And then we will most likely have way bigger things to worry about than the Peninsula of Crimea.

All these ppl talking about Crimea somehow being in danger are smokimg some serious stuff.

Posted by: Comandante | Nov 19 2022 17:44 utc | 23

Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 19 2022 17:41 utc | 22

like the Oracle at Delphi prediction.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 19 2022 17:45 utc | 24

Comandante

Crimea is already in danger as has been proven time and time again. Back in summer Ukraine destroyed dozens of fighter jets. Russia, like always, did nothing. They are constantly unprepared for these events and thus more to come.

Russian warplanes destroyed in Crimea airbase attack, satellite images show
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/11/russian-warplanes-destroyed-in-crimea-saky-airbase-attack-satellite-images-show


Posted by: Zanon | Nov 19 2022 17:52 utc | 25

It is long overdue for Russia to change their tactics if they plan to stop all these offensives going on right in front of them.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 19 2022 16:51 utc | 5

Thanks for stooping by with your daily assessment.

To describe this conflict in medical terms, Russia is suffering from a hangnail, a bruise on it shins and a sprained wrist. The patient is recuperating at home.

Ukraine is hospitalized with a paralyzing stroke and is in a perpetual USD IV drip, NATO feeding tube and has signed over Power of Attorney to both of them. Prospects of a full recovery are zero. Some quality of life is possible until the feeding tube is removed.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Nov 19 2022 18:08 utc | 26

Nato will supply the ships and sailors to drop off Ukrainian cannon fodder onto the shore.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 17:04 utc | 10

That would mean a declaration of war by NATO. Which may happen at some point.

In any case it is unlikely that any NATO ships would make it far past the Bosphorus, even if Turkey violated the Montreux Convention and let them through.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_Straits

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Nov 19 2022 18:22 utc | 27

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 17:04 utc | 10
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 17:29 utc | 19
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 16:54 utc | 7

This case has been well analysed on MoA in threads from past months.
You'd benefit searching older threads showing what a dumb idea it is.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 19 2022 18:22 utc | 28

Zanon Crimea is not in danger of being invaded. It never was. So what if they send drones/missiles once in a while along with terrorist attacks?

By your logic, Saudi oil fields are in danger of being taken by Yemenis. Lol

Posted by: Comandante | Nov 19 2022 18:32 utc | 29

More trouble comes for the unprepared Russia next week, then G7 will work out the price cap on russian oil. And first week of december the oil ban of russian oil/gas will be implemented. EU have filled their stocks so they wont suffer but Russia will feel the heat once again.

"G7 plans to announce Russian oil price cap on Wednesday"
https://www.forexlive.com/news/g7-plans-to-announce-russian-oil-price-cap-on-wednesday-20221118/

Already before the war west have threatened ban russian resources and Russia did nothing as usual and let the war drag on.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 19 2022 18:37 utc | 30

Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 16:54 utc | 7

Yes, a naval landing on par with the one at Inchon during the Korean War. The Ukrainian 101st Chairborne Division seizes the estuary at Dzharylgach then in a lightning maneuver descends southward to take Sevastapol from behind. Because we all know Ukrainian soldiers like to take it from behind.

Then, with a feint by the Ukrainian 12th Cannonfodder Brigade near Vovchansk tying up the Russian forces, Zelenskyy’s moontroopers execute a free-fall drop from the secret Ukrainian space station currently orbiting above the Crimea. They proceed along the coast and approach Sevastapol from the north.

Then while the superstitious Russians are busy praying to their sun god, the 600-strong Ukrainian Odesa submarine fleet - currently hiding out under Snake Island - makes a mad dash across the Black Sea where they are joined by the Ghost of Kiev and General Zaluzhny for a frontal assault on Sevastopol.

You really are a first-rate military strategist, Neofeudalfuture, on par with Sun-Tzu and Clausewitz. Its a wonder that Zelenskyy’s general staff hasn’t snapped you up yet.

Posted by: Orbán's Butler | Nov 19 2022 18:37 utc | 31

Neven at Arctic Sea Ice Forum had a heavy hand deleting certain sorts of trolls. The text was deleted. Some of the shoulda, coulda and woulda fantasies above deserved no reply. Myself, off to Slavyangrad.

Posted by: paxmark1 | Nov 19 2022 18:40 utc | 32


That price cap will bring Russia to it's knees laughing.

Posted by: SwissArmyMan | Nov 19 2022 18:40 utc | 33

"More trouble comes for the unprepared Russia next week, then G7 will work out the price cap on russian oil"


Lol the same price cap that previous US Treasury Secretary said yesterday is a riduculously stupid idea :D

Posted by: Comandante | Nov 19 2022 18:42 utc | 34

seveneleven | Nov 19 2022 16:48 utc | 4

"" It's a much more clear message to domestic and US audiences to declare Jewish power as the leading force behind the Ukraine War and cultural wars in the Western world. ""

The problem with this is that it would confuse the American 'Evangelical Right'. ... Note that the vast majority of these people (perhaps 90%) are 'Rapture Dispensationalists' which requires a 'Christian-Zionist' allegiance. ... So, any criticism of Israel will not only fall on deaf ears, but also be taken as an 'anti-Christian' message to their theology.

Unfortunately, this form of Scofieldism has dominated the American Evangelical Churches for over a century now. ... The irony is that its 'Israel First' fanaticism leads to the downfall of American society and culture. ... The Jews take great advantage of these deceived people and their misplaced hope, and in private laugh at their stupidity.

Posted by: Mummer | Nov 19 2022 18:43 utc | 35

Comandante

If Ukraine are free to succesfully bomb military infrastructure on Crimea time after time it is of course under threat by military invasion and/or coup.
If Russia backgrack from Kherson in total, ukrainians will of course push on towards Crimea add that with another destruction of the Crimean bridge and the russian are cut off from giving any resistance to such an event.


Posted by: Zanon | Nov 19 2022 18:46 utc | 36

I believe that the point being made that the "west" (or US and minions) is running out of weapons is somewhat missing the point - the US has huge financial advantage and can pay for more weapons and in fact doing so will benefit important people greatly and others as well. This is where I take exception to commentary of Berletic and Mercouris and favor Ritter.

What the US has done is to eliminate its inventory of obsolete, crap but also himars and stingers etc. I suspect the US will use military spending to boot its re-industrialization agenda.

You apparently ignore the fact(s) that critical components of NATO armaments were made by smaller firms that went out of business, or depend upon technologies no longer in use. The F-22 is a case in point... It's computer(s) were built with components no longer available..

NATO is dependent upon air superiority.... Virtually all NATO fighter aircraft were designed 50 years ago... and built > 35 years ago.. This includes F-22 F-18 F-15 F-16 Tornado The transport aircraft are in similar state G-5 -- 1970 C-141 C-135 Hercules--1956 KC-135 tanker---1957.

For example.... the C-141 I flew in was retired in 2006 The C-17 was introduced in 1995, is no longer made, and the original manufacturer no longer exists.

Ditto with tanks.... APCs.... helos....

The current Ukrainian war is depleting all stocks... and NATO will find itself unable to replace them.

INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Nov 19 2022 18:51 utc | 37

News Flash: Three Jamaican destroyers have arrived at Miami Beach, Florida, and have shot down 28 U.S. F-15E Strike Eagle fighter jets. Miami itself is now under occupation by Jamaica Defence Force troops. (Developing)

Posted by: blues | Nov 19 2022 18:53 utc | 38

I have it from reliable sources that the amphibious assault on Crimea will be using invulnerable American stealth technology: birch bark canoes. They are invisible to radar and except for the harm to the birch trees they are entirely environmentally friendly. I'm told they will be armed with tomahawks.

This will be a game changer! As with javelins and himars, cognitively challenged Ukrainians will be naming their children Birchbark after this!

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 19 2022 18:58 utc | 39

The gig is up.

Posted by: Watzov | Nov 19 2022 16:37 utc | 1

---

It was all over back in the spring/summer when Russia failed to collapse.

Trade sanctions and financial restrictions designed to implode the economy and collapse the government through social and media disruption achieved the opposite effect.

Instead, public support for the central states sovereign authority to protect both russias people and its territorial integrity significantly increased as a result of recognizing the existential threat posed by the west.

The latter fall media onslaught might have just been the residual effect of spending budgetary allocations to complete the insider grifting cycle. It certainly had less than zero real effect on the actual situation.

Anyway, as much as I enjoy the intelligent conversations at moa, it's all becoming a bit redundant. (Including of course my repetitive posts making the same observation.)

The world is moving on; after all, the only constant is change. In that regard, its important to refresh ones perspevtive by noting that Russia holds all the cards - seriously *all the cards*.

Think for a moment what this actually means. Consider the impossible demographic challenges, resource shortages and financial over extension facing the west.

Honestly, and this is speaking as an American who was ambivalent about our empires impure motives (after all, we've led very blessed lives), I really don't see any way out.

Posted by: B9k9 | Nov 19 2022 19:01 utc | 40

@ Opport Knocks | Nov 19 2022 18:08 utc | 26

nice analogy.. thanks..

@ blues | Nov 19 2022 18:53 utc | 38

lol.. have they invaded trumps mara largo? are they working with aliens? trump that is, lol... we know the usa state dept is!

-------------

@ bevin - thanks for sharing that.. i read it and shared it yesterday too.. here is indian punchline from today..


----------------

@ cadence calls... are you still around? i still feel like a shit for saying whatever i said a good month ago.. cheers james
Endgame in Ukraine struggling to be born

Posted by: james | Nov 19 2022 19:01 utc | 41

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 16:54 utc | 7

Obviously it didn't work most of the time [...]

Why read histories of ww2 when you can read statements like this?

Either you're a brilliant satirist ('naval landing' lol) or a moron. Apologies if the latter.

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 19 2022 19:08 utc | 42

Posted by: blues | Nov 19 2022 18:53 utc | 38

They managed to escape radar detection by Jammin'...

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 19 2022 19:12 utc | 43

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 16:54 utc | 7
It didn't work most of the time. No it didn't. Stalingrad, Kursk, the Dnieper. Seriously MI5 must do something about the abysmal standard of trolling here. I dont mind being insulted by paid trolls but not my intelligence. Its taxpayers money being spent on these imbeciles. Lift your game chaps.

Posted by: Paul McGrory | Nov 19 2022 19:12 utc | 44

Any thoughts and comments about how Russia is in trouble in Crimea or Belgorod or even Leningrad are completely delusional and utterly ridiculous to reply to. This is troll 101. These dummies know their comments are stupid and crazy but they want to seem relevant and in the conversation lol. The point being that lately there has been decent strategy involving military assets in battle, the FSB is busy looking and finding these Ukie saboteurs and Russian traitors AND the Ukie electrical infrastructure is finally being decimated the way it should have been in the summer. Make no mistake, Russia is looking like it is actually fighting a war and not an SMO while making NO mistakes!

Posted by: Safe | Nov 19 2022 19:15 utc | 45

An attack on Crimea seems unlikely to be successful if Russia has sufficiently armed and supplied the area - difficult to approach and likely to lead to escalation. Also read that Ukraine believes it can take Crimea by the end of December if a 'black swan' event occurs in Russia - guess that's the sort of thinking in Ukraine right now (wish upon a star). Ukrainian leadership has proven to be reckless and willing to sacrifice its soldiers to achieve any news that can quickly go viral even if they are pyrrhic victories or shortlived advances.

I've been trying to keep up with a few Telegram channels. Below is one post on 'SITREP Rybar and Others in English' from earlier this morning. Other western sources claim Ukrainian attacks on Russian headquarters in Melitopol and that Russia has turned Melitopol into a fortress.

Any barflies aware of the actual Russian military strength in the Melitopol area? It's pretty deep into the Zaporozhia region, so a direct attack seems unlikely without encountering stiff Russian resistance.

FROM RYBAR

⚡️ (https://t.me/sitrepmaps/301)🇷🇺🇺🇦⚔️ Situation in the #Zaporozhye Direction until 11:00 on 19 Nov 2022⚡️

🩸 The AFU command continues to concentrate forces in forward positions for a likely offensive against #Melitopol. According to residents in the region, 25,000 to 40,000 troops will be concentrated along the entire front.

▪️ A train carrying 20 pieces of military equipment and weapons, including several M142 HIMARS MLRS launchers, has arrived at the railway station in #Volnyansk. The day before, the second line of defence was equipped with launching positions for US missile systems.

▪️ Also a few days ago, several Oshkosh trucks with MLRS launchers passed through #Dnepropetrovsk towards #Zaporozhye.

▪️ Two unidentified battalions of the AFU, probably from the #Kherson direction, have arrived in the #Preobrazhenka area. Personnel concentrations are held near #Orekhov and #Gulyaypole.


Posted by: Objective Observer | Nov 19 2022 19:15 utc | 46

I do think it's a mistake to refer to it as satanism because the name is silly.

Posted by: seveneleven | Nov 19 2022 16:48 utc | 4

---

Failure to grasp the reasoning behind this naming convention represents the difference between being smart and intelligent.

The battle is in the west where the choosen own all the media assets. But they cannot deflect a seemingly generic catch all phrase. However, everyone who is aware knows perfectly well what it means.

Does psychohistorian need to spell it out when he speaks of 'private finance' or karlof1 referring to the 'empire of lies'?

Russian leadership is no less astute and understands very well both what group is driving the conflict, and why labeling it "satanism" was a brilliant marketing move.

Posted by: B9k9 | Nov 19 2022 19:15 utc | 47

A naval landing in Crimea won't work without practice.

Perhaps that is what the Ukie/NATO attempts to cross the Dnieper River and attack the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant were about.

Try, try again!

Posted by: wagelaborer | Nov 19 2022 19:15 utc | 48

@ Dr. George W Oprisko | Nov 19 2022 18:51 utc | 37

THIS! Well stated INDY.

Furthermore, operational & strategic logistics/industrial/resources capability & capacity re conventional high intensity conflict, let alone sustainment thereof, no longer exists.

Empire is in the same situ comparative to Russia, let alone China, as Japan was prior to Japans last desperate throw of the dice, all or nothing, pre Pearl Harbor, yet even weaker ...

Hence why it bluffs & blusters, bactracks & equivocates, because behind the smothering propaganda/cencorship is in dread fear of entering the fray, all whilst it and its vassals are bled dry, economically, re military materiel, State & Alliances stability, & it's geopolitical soft & hard power, let alone credibility ...

Early days yet ...


@ Neofeudalfuture All.

Masterful, bravo. Ever considered submitting your material to 'The Onion' ?

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 19 2022 19:16 utc | 49

Reading through some the comments on tonight’s Ukraine Open Thread, hilariously produced by the likes of NeoFeudalFuture et.al. it’s hard to avoid the impression one has mistakenly stumbled into some kind of a Monty Python version of MoA, a satirical persiflage at best.

Accordingly, I’m going to grab another beer, re-boot my computer from a cold start and return here again, with the hopeful expectation of then finding the real Saturday evening MoA Open Thread.

Please, dear God, let it be so.

Posted by: GreyRaven | Nov 19 2022 19:17 utc | 50

I would like to add to my comment after the fact that Russia HAS to win this war and by doing just that while looking good doing it, the multipolar world we desperately need is within our grasp.

Posted by: Safe | Nov 19 2022 19:17 utc | 51

Why waste resources on a naval landing in Crimea, when you can airdrop troops straight into the Kremlin?

Posted by: Skiffer | Nov 19 2022 19:25 utc | 52

Opport Knocks


To describe this conflict in medical terms, Russia is suffering from a hangnail, a bruise on it shins and a sprained wrist. The patient is recuperating at home.

I have said it many times past months but not everyone get the memo, basically stop being in denial. Understand you are in denial and change your outlook:


Some people deny their cancer so firmly that they convince themselves that either they aren't ill at all, or that their illness isn't cancer. You may need professional help from a psychologist or counsellor if this reaction starts to get in the way of your treatment or makes your overall situation even worse.

https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/coping/mental-health-cancer/how-cancer-make-you-feel/shock-denial

Russia would of course not start this invasion if this would drag on for 9 months leading to nothing but lives and territories lost and even offensives in Russia proper.
"Hangnail" when thousands have been killed, tortured and maimed? That is psychopathtic thinking additional to being in denial.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 19 2022 19:26 utc | 53

Posted by: GreyRaven | Nov 19 2022 19:17 utc | 49

Yeah the quality of debate has dropped in the last 18 months. I'm posting here again only because I'm having a twitter holiday. Quite a bit of pedestrian fringe lunacy, boring anti-semitic cabbage forever being reheated, and lots of terrible writing. MoA posters once used the preview function to craft and edit well-argued pieces. Now it's just stream of consciousness 15 year olds like this Zanon dimwit.

Posted by: Patroklos | Nov 19 2022 19:28 utc | 54

In response to Zanon@52,

I guess Russia was lucky that the war in Chechnya ended after a week without any casualties. Thank God for the high morale and effectiveness of their armed forces in the 90's.

Posted by: Skiffer | Nov 19 2022 19:31 utc | 55

@ GreyRaven | Nov 19 2022 19:17 utc | 50

lol... yeah the ukraine open threads have become challenging for a while now... i miss your posting too..

Posted by: james | Nov 19 2022 19:32 utc | 56

@Neofeudalfuture 10

And how will these "NATO ships" enter the Black Sea and stay afloat?

Magic?

You might want to look-up the Montreux Convention, which limits what NATO can do, and research the antiship missiles and torpedoes of Russia.


Missiles include:

3M-51 Alfa
3M-54 Kalibr
3M22 Zircon

BrahMos
BrahMos-II

K-300P Bastion-P
Kh-35
Kh-59
Kh-80

P-15 Termit
P-70 Ametist
P-120 Malakhit
P-270 Moskit
P-500 Bazalt
P-700 Granit
P-800 Oniks

Zmeyevik

For many of which there are neither equivalents nor defences within NATO.

And if you were a NATO admiral sending ships to be sunk, and staff to die, you might want to research the VA-111 Shkval as it is quite likely to be the torpedo of choice. That is because it travels faster than the speed of sound in water, meaning that targets probably won't even detect it until detonated. By which point it is probably too late to do any good.

Posted by: Hermit | Nov 19 2022 19:33 utc | 57

Intel Slava Z

🇮🇷🇷🇺 Iran will help Russia to create combat UAVs - Washington Post(?)

According to Western intelligence(?), an agreement has been signed under which Iranian specialists will create attack drones 'in Russia'. Thanks to this, Russia will be able to dramatically increase the number of relatively inexpensive, but very powerful UAVs.

True, or yet more supposedly slanderous propaganda ? I'm good with it either way.

In other news ...

It has been leaked ... the British Army has developed a new uber covert & unique accelerated training program for forcibly conscripted Ukrainian civilians ~12-60, taking into account the AFU & Ukraines unique requirements, in light of catastrophic lack of everything, even small arms ammunition ...

Uber sponsored British Army meets UAF re training Youtube. Runtime: 3m58s

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 19 2022 19:35 utc | 58

There is a slim possibility that the troll Neofeudalfuture's idea of NATO ships bringing Ukrainian cannon fodder to Crimea could be made to work. The Ukrainians would be "refugees" who left Ukraine and are in central Europe. These "refugees" would be mostly women and children under 18 years of age. They will have been trained in the use of small weapons or AK-47s.

The ships themselves would have to be disguised as merchant vessels or passenger cruise ships to get through the Bosporus. Or they may come down through the Danube River into the Black Sea. They may carry cargo that is deliberately labelled as being something other than what they really are: small weapons or their components. They may be part of the "refugee" women and children's luggage.

The issue is how such a plan of training "refugees" to spearhead a NATO invasion can work without the Russians being able to track it. The money offers to refugees would have to be huge to overcome their fear of being caught. This would require an immense outlay of money from NATO just to pay the refugees, to say nothing of outfitting the ships. It is arguable that NATO just doesn't have that kind of free cash any more if it ever did.

There will be other ways in which the plan is less than watertight. The refugees are likely to be unreliable and unwilling conscripts, and their value as fighters will be very low.

Neofeudalfuture's plan is a fantasy.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 19 2022 19:39 utc | 59

Zanex@62

I know of one person who got a cancer confirmation and immediately started a naturopathic remedy regimen all the while NEVER acknowledging the negativity or traditional dread response to this horrific diagnosis. His life never changed and his condition never worsened. Go figure.

Posted by: Safe | Nov 19 2022 19:40 utc | 60

@ Outraged | Nov 19 2022 19:35 utc | 58

if it is from a usa media outlet and they mention iran, syria, venezuala, russia and a few other countries - you can be guaranteed it is sprinkled with a heavy dose of bullshit either way... or it is straight up bullshit.. take yer pick.. this war is an info war as much as it is a real war.. the west has invested heavily in the info war side of it too..

Posted by: james | Nov 19 2022 19:40 utc | 61

Things aren't as smooth as Russia wants but Ukraine lost the war ages ago. There's no miracle for Ukraine these holidays.

Posted by: Carlos | Nov 19 2022 19:40 utc | 62

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 19 2022 19:26 utc | 53
“I have said it many times past months but not everyone get the memo, basically stop being in denial”

You seem to be the one in denial. Russia will keep this war going for several years. Based on history, probably at least 3 years, if not 5 to 7. They will drag the West through a bad, unending nightmare, just as they did to Napoleon and Germany, tearing out the guts of the West, economically and militarily.

Posted by: Augustus Caesar | Nov 19 2022 19:40 utc | 63

"The real path to peace in ukraine" - People's Forum in NY today.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=asndac1ETFk

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Nov 19 2022 19:45 utc | 64

Augustus Ceasar

There is no strategy of having a long war, that is a typical denialist argument right there.

Hey man the war might be dragged out but you know that that is the strategy duh

Remember that Russia have lost like 10 generals after only 9 months. 1 US general died in 20 year Iraq/Afghanistan wars.
Would you call US wars a mess you are going to say the same about Russia, unless you are in denial that is.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 19 2022 19:47 utc | 65

-- james | Nov 19 2022 19:01 utc | 40

Mar-a-Lago estate is currently exempt from the occupation. Jamaica's Minister of Foreign Affairs and Foreign Trade Kamina Johnson Smith is presently in negotiation with President Donald Trump at that location.

Posted by: blues | Nov 19 2022 19:47 utc | 66

"The real path to peace in ukraine" - People's Forum in NY today with great speakers.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=asndac1ETFk

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Nov 19 2022 19:49 utc | 67

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Nov 19 2022 19:57 utc | 68

In response to Zanon@65,

US campaigns are a hot mess not because of time or number of generals lost, but because they've consistently failed to achieve their stated objectives.

But, naturally, the US follows a strategy of having wars drag out for as long as possible, so called "forever wars," against threats that they create themselves via interventions, to satisfy their mercantile interests. So, whenever their military actions create instability in a region or unsustainable client regimes, everyone calls it "winning." That's why the US position as world hegemon is stronger than ever before, it must be all of that winning.

Posted by: Skiffer | Nov 19 2022 19:58 utc | 69

Great Christmas wishes this Ukrainian general seems to have on his list.

Just to better understand his thinking: say Putin has some unfortunate accident, or sees the light and orders the withdrawal of all troops from Ukraine and the payment if 350 billion in reparations: who would become the next president of Russia? And would they be more

Posted by: Marvin | Nov 19 2022 19:59 utc | 70

@ james | Nov 19 2022 19:40 utc | 61

Empire ' ... has invested heavily in the info war side of it ...' 'cause that's pretty much all it's got left.

This thread is reminiscent of the light-hearted & satirical one the other day. Noted the 'usual suspects' & twolls were aghast & loathed it, felt unable to effectively derail/respond ... intriguing. Difficulty re comprehending or addressing highly idiomatic & satirical comments due having only moderate EAL skills perhaps ?

The individual you mention repeatedly 'initiated' serially refused rational legitimate engagement here, hardly going to chase after it, especially on 'dangerous ground', where it can edit, censor, shadowban &/or delete with absolute utter impunity.

Peace

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 19 2022 20:00 utc | 71

Russian leadership is no less astute and understands very well both what group is driving the conflict, and why labeling it "satanism" was a brilliant marketing move.

Posted by: B9k9 | Nov 19 2022 19:15 utc | 47

I'm not following you. I can't understand why Russia marketing the reason for the war as a fight against satanism is brilliant. The label of satanism confuses people on the fence and for other people makes them think Russia is being silly and desperate. Russia should instead state clearly Jewish power is the force it is opposing because Jewish power is arranging the Ukraine War against Russia due to ethnic grudge and Jewish power wants to break apart the Christian nuclear family in the West to enhance its own power.

Posted by: seveneleven | Nov 19 2022 20:04 utc | 72

The problem with this is that it would confuse the American 'Evangelical Right'. ... Note that the vast majority of these people (perhaps 90%) are 'Rapture Dispensationalists' which requires a 'Christian-Zionist' allegiance.

Posted by: Mummer | Nov 19 2022 18:43 utc | 35

Your comment is eye opening. Is it really that high? Do 90% of evangelical Christians in America believe within their lifetime the Rapture will occur?

Posted by: seveneleven | Nov 19 2022 20:08 utc | 73

Devil's advocate here.
So Russia could look at the situation and just say it's not worth it or can't pull it off.
Pull its troops out, evacuate civilians, move all equipment to the Urals etc. (They did this before I think).
This was what a lot of commentators initially thought would happen since fighting Ukraine carried such huge risks. (Orlov's "Rotten bagel" for example).
Great, fine. Ukraine will get back all of its territory, have a lot of fun finding collaborators and continue on its de-industrialization and de-population path since it can't do squat on its own.
The West will gloat, have a few good years to run and still tear itself apart in the never-ending Cultural Revolution losing out to the rising China/India power.
Sure, possible, but the end in 5-10 years will be the same. Unipolar world is done, multipolarity with our jobs being taken by outsourcing while our kids get "transgendered" the same.

Posted by: Tom | Nov 19 2022 20:10 utc | 74

@Tom 72
Actually, you have a point here; I don't want to speculate how this war will finally end (I don't even pretend to be a military expert), but even if we imagine (!) a scenario like the one you described: Russia will/will have to withdraw from Ukraine, maybe even loose Crimea - what will be the result: a vengeful Russia moving even closer to China and Iran, a destroyed Ukraine for which the west will have to pay for years to come, a European economy which is already damaged, a Europe which is even more depending on the US, and an US which obviously lost much of its global influence (one might argue if this is a result of the war or if the war only made it more visible - but much of the world refused our calls to sanction Russia). There seem to be many people who think that we have won the war if Russia lost it. Alas, things are more complicated; I am not sure how the future for Russia will be after the war, but for Europe, there certainly is a dark time ahead.

Posted by: Confused | Nov 19 2022 20:26 utc | 75

@ James

Recall one of many variations of a Russian Joke from early in this conflict ...

Combat veterans Sergey & Ivan are, exhausted & disengaged, standing atop the ruins of the NATO headquarters in Brussels (SS Runes ?) having raised the Russian Federation Flag, as military photographers take snaps:

Sergey: A signals operator heard a rumor the Empire of Lies won the Information/Propaganda War ?

Ivan: Really ? Have been too busy fighting & stealing brief sleep to have noticed.

Sergey: And the cook says some of our armies have been utterly annihilated by obsolete derelict junk masking ultra-advanced Wunderfwaffe !

Ivan: Truly ? Haha. чушь !

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 19 2022 20:27 utc | 76

Whether or not 90% of "evangelicals" are pre-trib Rapturists (which implies dispensationalism, yes, but never underestimate the arbitrariness of believers and their fantastic power of ignoring conflicts in things they profess to believe) may depend on how you define "evangelical." One of the most notable things about evangelicals is they are seem to be the audience for the Hal Lindseys and Tim Lahayes. So if you define "evangelical" by where they sit in the commercial culture wars, maybe. Everybody paying attention knows Lindsey is a false prophet, but truth is not a value for believers.

B9K9 (harmless dog?) says psychohistorian and karlof1 mean Jews by "private" banking and "empire of lies," respectively. This is not entirely unexpected but if psychohistorian and karlof1 issue denials I will consider the question open, at the least.

However, I must say it seems to me Christians can be into Zionism for two other reasons than dispensationalism. For one, the notion of Israel as white Europeans conquering brown people, Palestinians, and treating them like Indians in the Wild West, strikes some as imitation. That's the sincerest form of flattery and greatly appreciated. For another, if Jews has Israel for their country, that means this one, isn't their country but "ours," a Christian country.

There is another issue in regards to Christians and Ukraine? There is a strong tendency to hate Russians as people because they are Godless Commies and God punishes the children of sinners too. But there is the discomfort in counting the Orthodox as Christians.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 19 2022 20:35 utc | 77

Ukraine deputy minister has voiced intention for complete civilian evacuation from Kherson. Apparently all the utility structures in the city are dead and the city is not compatible with life, so to speak. I guess, we could call Kherson a mini-scale modeling the entire country, soon.

Zelensky was visiting Kherson for western photo-ops. Seems like a less-than-pyrhic victory for Ukraine.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 19 2022 20:37 utc | 78

NPP hit again, as usual no protection by Russia even though this has been going on for months now. Why? Incompetence? Ignorance?

Ukrainian forces hit Zaporozhye NPP 12 times on Nov 19 – official
https://tass.com/defense/1539329

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 19 2022 20:44 utc | 79

@ james | Nov 19 2022 20:42 utc | 79

not me... b??

off to a rehearsal for a few hours.. back later..

Posted by: james | Nov 19 2022 20:46 utc | 80

An amphibious assault on Crimea?? -- are the normally serious folks here trolling themselves? ..... instead of completely seemingly-unfeasible conjecture, perhaps come attention might be directed to the upcoming confrontation in Zaporizhzhya where, according to Telegram sources, tens of thousands of Ukr army troops are moving from the Kherson area for a mass attack.

Will this be the conclusive battle?

Posted by: chet380 | Nov 19 2022 20:51 utc | 81

Deputy Ukrainian Prime Minister Vereschuk announces start of "voluntary evacuation" from Kherson, South Russia.

@IntelRepublic

Posted by: yk | Nov 19 2022 20:59 utc | 82

seveneleven | Nov 19 2022 20:08 utc | 73

"" Your comment is eye opening. Is it really that high? Do 90% of evangelical Christians in America believe within their lifetime the Rapture will occur? ""

I have no polls to quote, but my experience in visiting these churches tells me so.

How would I define an 'Evangelical Church' in America? ... It appears there is no set theological standard to go by, since there are so many variants. Many take bizarre liberty with their Scriptural interpretations, anywhere from literal Scofieldism to Word-of-Faith doctrines. However, here is a clue that you may be in a 'Rapture Dispensational' church:

a) It is a 'Mega-Church'.
b) It plays rock-and-roll music instead of hymns.
c) Or, it can go by the name of 'fundamental, independent', and be quite pious and traditional.
d) Assembly of God
e) Southern Baptist
f) It preaches 'Christian-Zionism'.
g) A ministry that is widely viewed on mainstream 'Christian Television' (ie. John Hagee, etc.).
h) And of course, it always tries to construct an 'End Times' event into nearly every one of today's news headlines (even though those events have nothing to do at all with Scriptural eschatology).

In short, it is a big Con Game. ... It started with the Scofield Reference Notes (1909) and worked its way through the 20th Century through heretical pop-theology such as Tim LaHaye's 'Left Behind' series (circa 1990s). ... 10s of millions of Americans have been poisoned and scammed by this theology.

Posted by: Mummer | Nov 19 2022 21:03 utc | 83

There is another issue in regards to Christians and Ukraine? There is a strong tendency to hate Russians as people because they are Godless Commies and God punishes the children of sinners too. But there is the discomfort in counting the Orthodox as Christians.

The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics(USSR) along with State Communism ceased to exist in '91. Godless Commies ?

Gag me with a spoon. 'Tis not the '60's

Actually there is the difficulty of considering self-described 'Western' Christians as actual Christians since the 600's.

Collapsed Western Roman Empire Bishopric declares Christian Leadership/Authority Succession, Extant Eastern Roman Empire and Orthodox Christianity, ultimately collapses, the baton is passed to Eastern Orthodox church, see Russia.

Papal authority first granted to Portuguese to explore east-asia, for trade, rapine & loot & PROFIT.

Thence Spain, in East-Asia, then the Caribbean & Latin American civilization genocides & enslavement for PROFIT.

Appalling sanctions re supposed heretics. Cathars, Albigensian Crusade, under Papal edict, southern France 1244, abhorrent massacres for PROFIT masked by overt faux devotion to faith. 'Kill 'em all, let Dog sort 'em out!'

The Crusades, from start to finish. The French king's assault on the Knights Templar and tortured confessions of Satan worship. France needed the first international corporate banking wealth & land holdings from the unsuspecting Templars, 'cause French treasury bankrupt.

Right through to today ...

Ukronazi faux nazi/paganized Orthodox sect, forcible conversions, imprisonment, discrimination & denial of right to practice ones faith, at the barrel of a gun within Ukraine.

Jesus had 'em all dead to rights in the Temple ...

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 19 2022 21:08 utc | 84

I'm truly glad the naval landing scenario achieved some attention. Even as mockery but if Russia wants to keep it it will have to consider defending it not just rely on missles and the terrain.

Now though consider this rabbit hole. Putin is the traitor, part of the Atlanticist fifth column which is apparently impossible to bypass(think central bank which left its reserves in enemy hands). Now even beyond the by numbers military analysis approach, how does the calculation change? What if there's someone to open the back door? Disable communication at sensitive times? You really gotta be stalin level paranoid. Russia has devious enemies.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 19 2022 21:08 utc | 85

The Ghost of Port-au-Prince, flying a Haiti Air Corps English Electric Lightning F.6 interceptor jet obtained from South Africa has downed 10 U.S. F-16s and another 2 U.S. F-15E Strike Eagle jets over the West Coast of Florida. President Trump is scheduled to make an announcement sometime this evening.

Posted by: blues | Nov 19 2022 21:21 utc | 86

Heh, it's now 9 months (and >50% casualties) into a 3 day Special Military Operation. Not exactly the coup and happy union the pro-Putinites promised.

Posted by: James Grip | Nov 19 2022 21:26 utc | 87

The UK is literally feeding the Ukrainians with SPAM

https://t.me/ZandVchannel/39748
🇺🇦 The Ukrainian military complains about low-quality food in the NATO Individual Diet.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 19 2022 21:40 utc | 88

Three day military operation ? Nonsense ,Putin's in no hurry ,there was never a time frame . The Ukrainians have pretty much shot their wad, western support is fading ,this war should be about over by the spring . How are those sanctions working out for you ?

Posted by: Buford T Justice | Nov 19 2022 21:41 utc | 89

"Maligned in Western Media, Donbass Forces are Defending their Future from Ukrainian Shelling and Fascism By Eva Bartlett"

There are heroes in this civil war. And they are on the other side from the one our taxes and our scoundrel 'leaders' are backing.
There is a moral in this story.

https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/11/19/maligned-in-western-media-donbass-forces-are-defending-their-future-from-ukrainian-shelling-and-fascism/?mc_cid=6215c201ab&mc_eid=f5d74d7021

Posted by: bevin | Nov 19 2022 21:43 utc | 90

The obvious solution to this unprovoked war by America and Britain against Russia would be the formation of a strong anti facist political group in UK and US.
The damage done to Uqraine and Russia would be stopped at source.
Ditto the damage already done to America UK and Europe's economy.

Posted by: Mark2 | Nov 19 2022 21:43 utc | 91

On the sad history of Sweden as master of cover ups for US and NATO misdeeds in Europe and why it is not a reliable part on any investigation of any event resulting on hug harm on the peoples of Europe, who have been turned since decades ago into cheap meat to be sacrified in the altar of US/Anglosaxon imperial ambitions and wishes to pester Russia...

Interesting four parts long thread on the sinking of the MS Estonia, of especial interest for the Estonian people and how they were manipulated to be into NATO even at the cost of the scrifice of around a thousand their citizens, both those who perished in the immediate aftermath of the event and those who then were dissapeared a la Skripals as uncomfortable witnesses...

Must Read! And also must keep, for future generations to know...

https://twitter.com/bidetmarxman/status/1593635146649186304?cxt=HHwWgMDRmZ6u3Z0sAAAA

Posted by: Ghost of Mozgovoy | Nov 19 2022 21:50 utc | 92

Outraged@85 "Godless Commies?" Yes, it is irrational but it is still true. There is Red-baiting of Putin as a reviver of the USSR, after all. If you find this outrageous nonsense, speak to them, not me, I say it's nuts. As to the rest, unlike you I do not see God in the bathroom mirror every morning and do not know what true Christianity is. I can only go by the people who say they are Christians, especially the professionals.

james@79 "are we doing the Jew thing again?" Ask seveneleven and B9K9. I suppose asking me somehow supposed to hint I'm being rude in objecting anti-Semitism, or maybe even implying I'm making it up.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 19 2022 21:51 utc | 93

Vladimir Gavrilov, from country 404. Must believe in Santa Claus. He claims that Ukraine will seize Crimea by Christmas 2022. lmao

Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | Nov 19 2022 21:55 utc | 94

@93 re MV Estonia;

I was going to post that link! Well worth reading for those unfamiliar with the incident.

Shows the depth of criminality that these “progressive, European” Baltic / Scamdivanian countries engage in when they are begging their US masters for treats.

Nordstream sabotage fits in well with their MO.

Posted by: Moaobserver | Nov 19 2022 21:55 utc | 95

The Saudis , Turkey , China , India , Brazil , Russia , most of Asia , they're not about to be subjugated.It's the US and its pipsqueak Euro vassals who are going to find themselves isolated, on the outside looking in. The US petro dollar's days are numbered, if it the Americans are forced to play on a level playing field the US economy will collapse. Russia is in the driver's seat , they are in good shape .

Posted by: Buford T Justice | Nov 19 2022 21:56 utc | 96

I'm counting three new trolls and their lack of inspiration and mental agility must indeed be worrying for their paymasters. Perhaps they should look for better trolls to be hired in India or China, as they do with engineers and programmers these days. But it may be hard to find intelligent people to live a sorry life like that unless very well paid and money is running low in Europe so we may have to put up with these dumb trolls until the end.

Posted by: Anthony | Nov 19 2022 21:59 utc | 97

James Grip | Nov 19 2022 21:26 utc | 88
obviously you haven't read your Kung Pao, I mean, Sun Tzu, "on the art of conducting a war on a reasonable timetable when fighting christian fundamentalist zombie nazis with seemingly endless funding."

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Nov 19 2022 22:05 utc | 98

@Posted by: Moaobserver | Nov 19 2022 21:55 utc | 96

Well, you may mean the fake current "progressives" who are actually "regressives", since they are leading us to the medioevo, but the author preciselly explains that this Sweden perversion on behalf of covering NATO and firing of anybody who could be trying to say the truth or what he/she had witnessed, started after the killing of Olof Palme, so coincidentally....

I would add this threads are of extrem interest for the peoples of Finland and Sweden as next NATO candidates...It would be funny that in the end he would be your odious Erdogan who save your countries in front of your full lack of attention and negligence in doing it by yourselves..

Posted by: Ghost of Mozgovoy | Nov 19 2022 22:09 utc | 99

i know when i hear marjorie taylor greene yapping, i start praying for the rapture. she's a real proverbs 31 christian kind of woman you want entrusted with the family jewels. "she provides bullets for all her household. she rises while it is dark to secure the nation's ballot boxes."

just in time for the US to get its ass kicked, the MT greene's of the world discover they are against the war in Ukraine! she's a real leader of the pack, that one.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Nov 19 2022 22:10 utc | 100

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