Ukraine Open Thread 2022-201

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November 17, 2022

Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

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Zelensky's lies about the Ukrainian missile strike in Poland have damaged his credibility.

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We can hope that the media will now be more careful when they report of all the other lies Zelensky and his team are uttering on a daily base.

Posted by b on November 17, 2022 at 15:28 UTC | Permalink

Comments

Posted by: Red Star | Nov 17 2022 21:20 utc | 101

There is a photo that purports to show S-300 parts lying on the ground next to the crater, but the ground they are lying on doesn’t look at all like the grassless dirt surrounding the crater.
Posted by: Fiji Refugee | Nov 17 2022 21:00 utc | 93
Reuters published this photo which I believe is the only one of ANY missile fragment from that place.
https://news.yahoo.com/west-criticizes-russia-u-n-232621738.html
Now read carefully their description of it. You need to read it like a lawyer !!!!
“West criticizes Russia at U.N. for Ukraine war after missile crash in Poland
The debris, which locals claim to be that of a missile, is pictured at the site of an explosion in Przewodow”

Posted by: Tom_12 | Nov 17 2022 21:23 utc | 102

@53 Fiji refugee
Two missiles, one missile, no missile?
Yesterday, in a Telegram channel I read, a Polish woman who has relatives in the place where it happened reported. Their description makes the whole thing even crazier. They spoke of 2 missiles, but were convinced that they were not Ukrainian or Russian missiles, but American, which should not be there.
Maybe the picture of the tractor and the part of the S-300 was just to show something, but not what really happened. Everything in the fog of war.

Posted by: Uwe | Nov 17 2022 21:24 utc | 103

Zanon @ 63

One must ask if Russia care at all that Ukraine attack them and kill civilians because this is not incompetence but ignorance by now… “Several houses were destroyed. An 11-year-old girl was seriously injured.”

I had to read your post a few times to make sure it’s as stupid and venal as it appears. You are saying the Russians need to show they care more by bombing Ukrainian houses and killing civilians, and in this particular case injuring as many 11 year old Ukrainian girls as they can?
You’re either fucking with the forum or you can’t form a clear thought in your head and are as dumb as a bag of rocks. That might even be it – The sun hit you and you turned to stone but somehow still talking.
I know don’t feed the trolls… sorry, but this Zanon one is so helpless it’s almost cute.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 17 2022 21:26 utc | 104

I think those days are now over. The destruction of electrical power and water sources as winter moves in will have an effect on the pro-Kiev Ukraine population. By the end of winter, they will be looking for Zelensky with rope in hand.
===
Posted by: Ed Nelson | Nov 17 2022 21:09 utc | 98
I think that much is already baked in, yeah. Even if everybody worked together and were on the same page, it’s going to be a hard winter. It will take a while to adjust to low-electric life again. Old-timers will have something to do. And of course nobody will be doing that.
No real need to make it worse.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 17 2022 21:29 utc | 105

Bonami | Nov 17 2022 20:53 utc | 91
Your opinion on the explosion makes sense. The rest is a fantasy list of good reading that dies with examining. Number 1 Monsanto did not purchase Ukrainian land due to known risk. Number 2 Monsanto sells seeds not grown grain. Number 3 Russia does not belong to organic cult. Number 4 EU can go into debt like America to sustain its economy for years or decades so it will not die. Number 5 Italy will not leave the EU or it will be like Greece. Number 6 virtual money is for money laundering and now everyone knows this. The war will continue for the rest of your life but will not be as exciting as now. Zelenskyy will be replaced next year by military figure but still in favor of America.

Posted by: Kraus | Nov 17 2022 21:30 utc | 106

The mayor of Ivano-Frankivsk, Ruslan Martsinkiv, urged residents of high-rise buildings to move to the countryside for the winter.Martsinkiv believes that the situation with the supply of electricity will only worsen.
“I recommend finding a place to stay in the countryside or in individual houses. Someone can have family or acquaintances in the villages. “It is desirable to make arrangements for accommodation; otherwise, it will be very difficult to survive in apartment buildings,” he said.
-Ukraina_ru
Join Slavyangrad
I would give the same advice. Dark hallways, toilets freeze and burst, sprinkler pipes break, no elevators, no sump pumps in the basement, windows that don’t open, no way to use a wood stove, ventilation fans not working, gangs terrorizing tenants looking for supplies, dangerous lobbies. The city core will be the first mass wave to scatter. Instead of gangs at road checkpoints, it will be the military, probably detaining anyone perceived to be able bodied. Those with rural connections had better take advantage of them and take the back roads.

Posted by: PP | Nov 17 2022 21:33 utc | 107

Replying to: Posted by: Boomheist | Nov 17 2022 16:10 utc | 18
My guess is that within two or three weeks the West will be begging for talks with Russia, whom they know they cannot defeat where the Russian troops now are and whom they suspect would defeat the West were Russia to press on through eastern Ukraine to Poland….China lifting Covid rules to save the economy and sure to face a pandemic of its own this winter, meaning China will be turned inward as well….
It’s going to be a time of severe and difficult attitude adjustment in the West…
This sort of stuff irritates if I’m honest. Not meaning to single you out personlly, but by now you must have realised the outcome you suggest is unlikely. No one will be going ‘cap in hand’ to anyone.
There might be an eventual freeze to the conflict, but not before the mobilised Russian forces have been deployed and the next iteration and consequence of escalation plays out.

Posted by: Teal | Nov 17 2022 21:34 utc | 108

@40, 44
The pandemic was real: simply ask the doctors and nurses who saw the people die early 2020. If you would have visited an emergency department or intensive care unit then you wouldn’t have had the slightest difficulty believing this was a new and difficult disease. People now downplay its mortality: “only” 1-2 %, but then in times of the plague, cholera and the Spanish flu, we didn’t have any intensive care did we? For various reasons, the pandemic afterwards lost much of its power, but then most pandemics sizzle out, temporariliy or definitely. Of course, the crisis has been used – some parties were very happy to do so. An yes, there was a lot of mishandling. And sure, we still do not know if the origins were in a Lab or not (Fort Detrick won’t tell us). But saying that the pandemic was nonexistent and a hoax shows ignorance or malignant manipulation. Indeed, other pandemics will follow, they always have, in all thousands of years of human life. And it cannot be denied that our biological warfare got a bit more sophisticated than catapulting rotting carcasses into a besieged town or handing pox-ridden blankets to poor indians…

Posted by: Anthony | Nov 17 2022 21:36 utc | 109

Ed Nelson@98….someone on the Russian side has questions to answer for. How many lives would have been saved by destroying the rail infrastructure first. They pissed around, now look, smashing the fuck out of the place. Winning hearts??? Of the mindless???
Quite a fuck up, letting politicians play war is as fucking dangerous as letting politicians play medical doctor…….same people, same mess, another stinky pile.
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Nov 17 2022 21:36 utc | 110

OohCanada | Nov 17 2022 19:22 utc | 75
“……The US having the info to clear Russia is as strange as it gets.”
Mate. FFS. The US and UK have flown surveillance of Russia 24/7 for YEARS.
The surveillance drones sit off in Poland and Romania instead of Ukrainian airspace.
Monkeywerxus on his yt said the 135 rivet joints can “track something the size of the a football from 300 miles.
As I have obsessively posted for days now JAKE 11 USAF RC135W Rivet Joint was at 33,000ft in Poland and (my estimation from OSINT) within 150kms of the impact site at Przewodów.
Monkeywerx OSINT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2GfgJBaW0A
What’s been in the skies, with eyes, in the past 24/7
NATO
UK: RAF Typhoom squawking 1326 NATO Air Policing
RAF RC135W Rivet Joint RRR7216 en route to #Iraq from Souda.
-US Army Beech RC-12X Guardrail YANK01
-US Army Beech RC-12X Guardrail YANK02
-USA RC135W Rivet Joint JAKE11
-USAF KC135R HOBO10
-USAF KC135R 61-0267
-US Army CL600 ARTEMIS BRIO68
-US Navy EP-3E Aries II 159893
-NATO RQ-4D Phoenix MM-AV-SA0014
Polish/Ukrainian border:
-USAF KC135R 61-0267
-USAF KC135R HOBO10
-USAF KC135R HOBO16
Turkish Navy ATR-72 MPA MARTI93 active over the #BlackSea.
Russian skies. (western OSINT)
Russian Air Force Tupolev Tu-204-300 RA-64059
en route to #Kaliningrad.
Russian EMERCOM Sukhoi Superjet 100-95B RA-89066 airborne from Minsk #Belarus.
Russian Antonov An-148-100E RFF702 departed Ankara #Turkey
Pobeda flight DP330 Saratov-Sochi ???
-Russian Air Force Tupolev Tu-214PU RA-64532
en route to Baku #Azerbaijan
-Russian Air Force Ilyushin Il-96-300 RA-96014
en route to Yerevan #Armenia
That’s some of what the plane spotters have tracked in the last 24/hours.
One *assumes* the US and Russian military has better monitoring than civilian free flight tracking apps.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 17 2022 21:37 utc | 111

@62 – It’s too be expected. The only real weapons the West has now regarding Ukraine are hyperbolic missiles launched in the airwaves by the fourth estate.

Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 17 2022 21:39 utc | 112

suzan@97…post of the day.
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Nov 17 2022 21:39 utc | 113

@39 Bob Jenkins
Russell ‘Texas’ Bentley is trustworthy to me. He witnessed the Mariupol betrayal. The city was abandoned by the Ukrainian army. The People’s Army could have marched in there without a fight. There were still a few members of Azov scattered around. Their positions the inhabitants of the city spread on social media. Then came the order from Moscow not to take the city. Otherwise, there would be no more ammunition and support. Whose interests were protected there? Was Akhmetov afraid that his steel plant would be nationalized? His profits continued to flow. So did the blood of the people terrorized by Azov ever since. There were so many terrible reports from the city. Now it was almost completely destroyed, thousands of soldiers died in the conquest. Just for the profits of one man?
Were those later silenced who knew about the background and perhaps were no longer willing to accept the betrayal? Givi, Motorola and the last head of state who fought together with his people at the front, Zakharchenko. Just as the last fight before Minsk-2 ended, this special operation continued. Always with the handbrake on and quite a few illogical decisions that only make sense when you know that not only state interests but also oligarch interests are taken into account.

Posted by: Uwe | Nov 17 2022 21:40 utc | 114

MH17 comes to mind…

Posted by: Ted | Nov 17 2022 21:41 utc | 115

So if this Ukie missile falling in Poland was a false flag attack, as seems likely, would Ukraine have done it without prior consultation with its western sponsors? I think it is a possibility, if Ukraine is desperate for NATO to enter the fray directly against its own better judgement, which is something that I don’t foresee happening.

Posted by: Rob | Nov 17 2022 21:46 utc | 116

@biochar
Russia has had three foreign policy strategies since 1990. The first was an attempt to make a “Greater Europe” or “common European home,” in other words, an equal and pluralistic European economic and security zone. The Historic West rejected those offers from Gorbachev to Putin. The second strategy, as a consequence, was Putin’s “heartland” pivot towards Central Asia and Iran. Syria fit into that pivot as well. The goal was to build a regional bloc of sorts (via the EEU) that could maintain Russia as a meaningful pole in Eurasia amidst the looming bipolar rivalry between the US and China. The third strategy, in the wake of Maidan and the New Cold War launched by Washington, was the comprehensive partnership with China, with whom Russia shares a common vision for multipolar regionalism and sovereign development, and a positive or complimentary economic division of labor. Russia and China are also explicitly coordinating their contributions to Eurasian integration. Putin may not have given up on Europe coming to its senses and breaking with the US, but he does not need Europe to balance against China. I’m fact, China wants Europe on board with Eurasian integration too, and that means respecting Russian security interests.

Posted by: Wilbur | Nov 17 2022 21:54 utc | 117

Posted by: Kraus | Nov 17 2022 21:30 utc | 106
Bonami may not be 100% right but is much closer to reality that you are.
First it matters little if it were Monsanto buying land or some other US entity. They are all connected, with deals, company directors etc. Russia is most certainly keen on GM free status, if not claiming to be organic.
I think your comments on debt are bit naive. debt pyramids come crashing down, the moment there is a loss of confidence. Also they key is Germany, which is about to go formally into recession. Germany has until now been the economic power house of the EU and has been essentially funding Poland and all the other new states. The UK helped but now is gone and i rather doubt the remainder including France, Italy etc will have the money or the political clout at home to send billions to Poland or the Baltic states. Germany politically cannot really go into debt, essentially because it was so heavy on Greece for doing this. Put it this way, if Germany heads into debt, there will be no restraint on any other EU members and the whole pyramid will fall.
I think it quite possible Italy will leave the EU (it will not be able to sustain the huge support bill for the EU dependent states if Germany is weak), followed by Greece and France and possibly Poland (if the money stops flowing).
Finally, yes Z will be replaced, but it is quite unclear just with whom or what. With no electricity, Ukraine will be very, very weak and there really is no country other than Germany, Russia or China with the resources or skills to fix the problems. The US power grid is too different. The UK has enough trouble of its own. possibly Australia may help – we us a 240V power network, but we have a shortage of skilled workers as it is.

Posted by: watcher | Nov 17 2022 21:54 utc | 118

Posted by: Bob Jenkins | Nov 17 2022 17:15 utc | 37
I’m not sure about the article cited.
Covert trade between the “Federalist areas” of the Donbass and the rest of the Ukraine continued in the earlier stages of the war in spite of the heavy fighting. So there’s a precedent for it continuing. But is it the case that the Dnieper bridges have been left intact to facilitate covert trade through Ukraine between Russia and the West now? I’d suggest that it’s unlikely there is such a trade and even if so, it’s unlikely it’s being conducted through Ukraine.,
I’d thought the bridges over the Dnieper had been left intact because the Russians want men and equipment fed in from Ukraine over the Dnieper. Easier if the Ukrainians send them to the Russians to be destroyed rather than the Russians having to move further into Ukraine to deal with them.
This has been a “Falkenhayn scenario” pretty well since the start. The Russians have a preponderance of weapons and artillery and very good supply lines just where they are. If the Ukrainians keep sending men and equipment to be destroyed then there’s no need for the Russians to move further in.
So no reason at present to destroy those Dnieper bridges. Would that not explain why those bridges are left intact, rather than that they are left intact so a covert trade between Russia and the West can continue unhindered?
In fact I’d also assumed that the Russians want the bulk of the Ukrainian forces where they are for another reason. In the case of an all-out Russian offensive to the West of the Dnieper, those Ukrainian troops would be trapped between the now strong Russian defences to the East and the Dnieper to the West. That would then be the time to destroy the bridges, to keep those powerful Ukrainian forces bottled up and unable to get further supplies.
From what Douglas Macgregor says, and if there’s no settlement, we may expect a Russian offensive quite soon. That itself would disrupt any covert trade between Russia and the West though Ukraine.
So if there is such a trade, and given the probability of interruption of that trade if it goes through Ukraine, it’s probably being conducted in some other manner than the article suggests.

Posted by: English Outsider | Nov 17 2022 21:56 utc | 119

Rob | Nov 17 2022 21:46 utc | 116
Yep. The ?missile? to Poland was Ukraine freelancing.
Possibly with a bit of Polish help…which evaporated once Polish farmers wee killed and the spotlight got turned on.
It was Dumb and Dumber does false flags.
That’s why it got stomped out by Biden at Bali.
Someone thought pulling a stunt during the G20 would be prime time for escalation.
Instead… the Big Boys were in one place… and everyone’s intel was reporting the same… not Russia.
I agree if they’d wanted to escalate, they would have used it as casus belli, cranked up the Wurlitzer to 11 and gone all out RussiaRussiaRussia.
But Russia had, over just 10 hours, sent 100 precision missiles, unchallenged, across the entire Ukraine territory. NATO US UK are aware they are in no position for a full military engagement with Russia.
Terrorism, sabotage, sanctions and restrictions on Russian engagement with other countries are their weapons of choice.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 17 2022 21:59 utc | 120

Given the speed at which Biden and Stoltenberg came out to say that it was not a Russian missile I would say this serves to demonstrate that they really don’t want to trigger Article 5 of the NATO Treaty and neither the US or NATO actually want a war with their boots officially on the ground against Russia. Personally I don’t think they could win it and neither do they.
So the idea is to talk tough and use the media to blame Russia for everything, but when it actually gets too hot and it could comes to actually fighting as NATO they run away. The truth is that the US only wants the Ukrainians to die and certainly not Europeans or Americans.

Posted by: George | Nov 17 2022 22:01 utc | 121

@ 114 (Uwe)
Agree, there is obviously some level of restraint and the justification provided make sense to me.
@ 119 (English Outsider)
This whole ‘we’re letting them move all this gear to the front so we can blow it up’ argument is definitely plausible, but again, why not just blow it up on the train where it poses no threat whatsoever. As Scott Ritter said, finding and targeting this equipment is not easy, but there seems to be a very concerted effort to leave the rail lines completely untouched and that is why I believe what Sivkov is saying, at least at present.
When the rumored offensive starts, I suspect the Oligarchs may have to pound sand as I think much of the infrastructure that has not been targeted yet, will be targeted.

Posted by: Bob Jenkins | Nov 17 2022 22:08 utc | 122

I am shocked….SHOCKED that there is lying going on around there!

Posted by: nwwoods | Nov 17 2022 22:10 utc | 123

I saw this comment over at New Atlas, Brian Berletic’s latest update:
Poster claims to be an Aussie living in Ukraine.

…obvious last night those were not Russian missiles.
The trejectory was completely wrong, and they landed 3 hours after the last missiles struck Lviv.
Russia sent over 100 missiles destroying what was left of our energy infrastructure,, killing only 1 person, deadly accurate.
There was no air raid warnings for 2 hours before, or after those missiles struck Poland, and the impact site was roughly 200 km north west of Lviv.
Now we are being told these were air defence missiles which missed their targets.
What targets, there was no air raids after 6 pm here, these landed after 8 pm.
Also, Lviv air defences are south and east of Lviv, the impact zone is north west of Lviv. This was a deliberate false flag attack by Zelensky, firing into Poland to escalate and bring NATO into the war. We have created a monster, and he will not stop until this is a global nuclear conflict.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 17 2022 22:11 utc | 124

Rob @ 116, Melaleuca @ 120:
My view is similar to Rob’s, that the missile attack was intended as a false flag (to be blamed on Russia) by the Ukrainians desperate for more NATO involvement and money from the US, now that Sam Bankman-Fried’s FTX cryptocurrency scam (in which the Ukrainians were also involved, shuffling money received from donors to FTX who then shuffled it to Democratic Party politicians) has collapsed, and the US mid-term elections are over with the Republicans getting control of the House of Representatives.
It seems likely that if Ukraine consulted with a NATO country in planning this attack, that country was most likely to be the United Kingdom, not Poland.
The British had already had plans to sabotage the Crimea Bridge. We know already that Boris Johnson, while still Prime Minister, visited Zelensky twice earlier in 2022 to persuade him not to negotiate with the Russians but to continue fighting. Britain seems hell bent on re-running World War II to suit an agenda and a false flag attack on Polish territory that could be blamed on Russia somehow must have sounded like a good idea at Whitehall and Vauxhall Cross.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 17 2022 22:17 utc | 125

I think this serves as an example as to why MH17 was most likely a stitch-up case that was manipulated by the Dutch and its US proxy Bellingcat. Another false flag performed by Ukraine using a Soviet missile as well. What better trigger to try to get the attention of the world and stimulate hate towards Russians after Maidan.

Posted by: George | Nov 17 2022 22:21 utc | 126

One wonders whether the US concocted this entire incident to undermine Zelensky.

Posted by: John Kirsch | Nov 17 2022 22:22 utc | 127

@121 (George)
I’ve been saying this from the beginning, they (the west) do not want a WW3, they do want to steal taxpayer money in perpetuity, while simultaneously trying to weaken Russia and provoke regime change.
This is clear as every time there is an escalation that could widen the conflict, the US does not press it, they back away.
They are simply trying to surpass Icarus, by flying as close to the sun as is humanly possible, without actually melting the wax.

Posted by: Bob Jenkins | Nov 17 2022 22:23 utc | 128

Aaaand…it’s gone:
“No traces of the second fallen rocket were found on the territory of #Poland”… President Duda.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 17 2022 22:31 utc | 129

@Sean the Leprecaun
Since the so far successful strategy has been to draw the enemy into range of Russian artillery where they and their war fighting matériels can be attritted to the tune of hundreds of thousands dead and wounded, and thousands of tanks, artillery pieces and various vehicles and ordnance destroyed, it would behoove the Russians to continue to ensure that the UkroNazis retain their means of transportation from west to east remain intact, would it not?

Posted by: nwwoods | Nov 17 2022 22:38 utc | 130

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 17 2022 22:11 utc | 124

We have created a monster, and he will not stop until this is a global nuclear conflict.

That guy is starting to smell like a use and discard heroe, like Babchenko simulating his own assasination, or Savchenko the Ukrainian Jeanne d’Arc that lasted a bit longer with the “Je suis Nadya” “free Nadya” and all that noise. Where are they now? The US of amnesia. The problem with Zelensky is that a lot of stuff has been broken on his watch so his prospects for survival are getting tighter by the day.

Posted by: Paco | Nov 17 2022 22:38 utc | 131

I’m amazed Zelensky and ‘credibility’ can still be used in the same sentence.

Posted by: Gerry Bell | Nov 17 2022 22:40 utc | 132

The anglo saxon / globohomo media is just utterly sad. They are continuously jumping all over the map with explanations. Looks like (as someone said already) they are just making and blaming Zelensky as the fall guy, in order to protect their bs info-complex from completely collapsing.
Also, the image creation on Zelensky has overall seemed to turn somewhat negative, meaning that he might be at the mature end of shelf life.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 17 2022 22:48 utc | 133

Paco 131
How soon you forget
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Mikheil-Saakashvili

Posted by: Jon AU | Nov 17 2022 22:48 utc | 134

Melaleuca | Nov 17 2022 22:11 utc | 124
Jen | Nov 17 2022 22:17 utc | 125
Green t-shirt and UK are desperate. Ukie channels have been saying US and Russia have some sort of agreement. UK and green t-shirt would only do this if they knew US was pulling the plug on Ukraine.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 17 2022 22:55 utc | 135

First it matters little if it were Monsanto buying land or some other US entity. They are all connected, with deals, company directors etc. Russia is most certainly keen on GM free status, if not claiming to be organic.
Posted by: watcher | Nov 17 2022 21:54 utc | 118

Bayer now owns Monsanto, having purchased it for $63 bln in 2018, which some call the worst acquisition ever.
While they are obviously multi-national, the Board of Directors and Executive are almost exclusively German. The HQ is in Germany.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Nov 17 2022 23:02 utc | 136

Just another day at the office.
https://t.me/vorposte/30759
Caption translation:
Footage of the work of Russian artillery on the Ukrainian military.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 17 2022 23:04 utc | 137

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 17 2022 19:49 utc | 82
Zanon, I am surprised you dropped in today, so let me catch you up. Well, your hero has really screwed the pooch this time. He lied in front of the whole world when the truth would have fit better. So, what do you think; a Ukraine /CIA false flag operation gone terribly wrong, or just a miss directed stray Ukrainian missile? I think the latter, it is kind of strange that the Director of the CIA just happened to be there at the time. Could it be that the CIA and the Biden State Department are not working on the same level? Perhaps it was a False Flag not approved by the State Department but organized by the CIA or MI6?
Why was Zelensky SOOO adamant that this incident was grounds for an article 4, and even an article 5 response from NATO? Oh, wouldn’t that have just been lovely. Just imagine the great glow in the sky when all the nukes report to their destinations.
There are some on this site who are suggesting that Biden and Putin have made a deal of some sort that doesn’t include Zelensky. I think the idea is a bit farfetched, what do you say, Zanon?
Until next time, have a good day.

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Nov 17 2022 23:05 utc | 138

THIS is more sock-puppetry >>>
JustTruth | Nov 17 2022 15:43 utc | 5
Yes that indeed is where the dog was buried. More interest is how rapid was the narrative extinguished from Bali.
Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 17 2022 20:52 utc | 90 <<<< Is not by me, nor are several others the last few days. Clearly others are still being targeted all the time. There is no point using MoA when this is happening. And when MoA is Troll Heaven and OCD Whacko-Central (putting aside a couple of dozen stable well-adjusted people) Besides that the sheer volume of "noise" here makes it a further waste of time to find useful commentary refs, even with a blocking over 100 of the worst ocd/unstable/off-topic offenders. It's exhausting. For little to no benefit at all. Have had enough. The site is full of trash talk 24/7/365. Thanks but no thanks B.

Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 17 2022 23:06 utc | 139

@133 There wasn’t much Anglo-Saxon media before 1066. And the media was Norman French after that. Unless you’re thinking of Beowulf.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43521/beowulf-old-english-version

Posted by: dh | Nov 17 2022 23:06 utc | 140

“….They spoke of 2 missiles, but were convinced that they were not Ukrainian or Russian missiles, but American, which should not be there…” Uwe@103
Folk wisdom: the reality is that all missiles in this war zone are US inspired. The old woman was right: the Americans should not be there. And if they went home, peace would soon be established.
Of course “Americans” is a generic here…

Posted by: bevin | Nov 17 2022 23:08 utc | 141

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 17 2022 23:10 utc | 142

On top of that being a drag where does one actually find useful credible info/facts on this Ukrainian debacle?
No one knows anything, be they here or on the other TG, so called experts commentary sites.
There’s a few sensible people making the best out of what little is known but they are so much in the dark themselves their comments amount to nothing but “maybes and guesswork” anyway – even if logical, and sane povs – it’s still only naval gazing.
I’m lucky if i can find a few useful refs/links any day provided by posters here worth looking at that tells me something new or accurate and worth knowing. eg DownSouth gives good copy/paste info but I can go find that anytime on TG myself easy enough, when I want it.
Most of the so-called “experts” recommended here are not really experts at all. Or credible or reliable enough for my standards. I don;t have any use for opinionated guesswork and stabs in the dark by profuse attention seeking “commentators”.
Russia discloses nothing useful, ever – and what it does makes little logical sense anyway. They can talk as much crap as any western politician/officials do. No one can be trusted either be they here or elsewhere. Putin et al only seem able to speak in “code” never directly. Or consistently.
So I am giving up, had enough of attempting to find useful sane or factual info to help me make sense of anything from now on. Everyone lies pro-or anti-Russia except for those who are already lost the mental plot entirely anyway. If Russia one days ends up taking Kiev I guess the TV news will let us know it happened. Otherwise to hell with it. Especially skimming though the hundreds of posts here every day that keeps going round in circles. And Bs “articles” that don’t say anything I didn’t know already, or that focus on side issues that don’t amount to a hill of beans anyway.
AS for the “bigger picture” about “empire” collapsing well 99.9% of that chatter is imagination and hopium for some day in the future. IF the USD loses it’s petro dollar reserve currency status, and if China takes back Taiwan one day and all the other grand theories of change, I’m sure I’ll find out. Meanwhile it is all useless talk.
Nothing here is influencing a single government or country or media or anything on earth at all. I cannot imagine any Intel agency would give this place the time of day, ever. Barely none of passes through here is real anyway. People have opinions – big deal, not. It really amounts to nothing more than every other saloon bar on the planet. Full of Blow-Hards!
Who is up next for the Pool table?
And now the site is so dysfunctional you don’t even know who really wrote this rant!!!!!
No one cares anyway. And if they do, then that there is a personal problem in itself. To the genuine decent people here, all the best and well good luck with it. And Be much more skeptical! Buyer Beware.

Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 17 2022 23:11 utc | 143

Quite a fuck up, letting politicians play war is as fucking dangerous as letting politicians play medical doctor…….same people, same mess, another stinky pile.
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Nov 17 2022 21:36 utc | 110
Thanks for the response, and yes in retrospect Russia should have done the job properly the first time. However, knocking out the electrical grid in the spring and summer would not have had the same effect, don’t you agree?
About the RR tracks in the Odessa Region. No one knows for sure who is doing this, but it doesn’t seem to be Russian missiles involved. It is more like an underground resistance operation. If so, then the Zelensky and the Nazis are in big trouble. Odessa has a strong pro-Russian population, and they have not forgotten the May 2, 2014, mass murder of their comrades when the Trade Union building was burned down killing 50 people.

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Nov 17 2022 23:32 utc | 144

Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 17 2022 23:06 utc | 139
Oh SeanAU, is it me my lord? Is this really our last supper?

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Nov 17 2022 23:37 utc | 145

Bob Jenkins @ 128
I totally agree. A Nice little war of propaganda, but a real NATO war is totally off limits.
I also disagree with many that the US mid-term elections were about Ukraine. I don’t think many Americans are even aware of Ukraine. Many of them can’t even find it on a map as I have observe with street polls, same with Taiwan.
It’s was the internal personal issues like women being controlled over abortion and the demagoguery of sugar over freeing younger people over student debts that actually stopped more people voting for the Republicans.
A lot of Americans are only focussed on what they will personally get in an election, (as it is in Australia where I live) and any war that could create too many corpses coming home in boxes is anathema. Russia isn’t Afghanistan, neither is it Iraq or Syria. And then there is the chance that war could arrive on the US’s own doorstep in any conflict with Russia.

Posted by: George | Nov 17 2022 23:41 utc | 146

Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 17 2022 23:11 utc | 143
Have a little cheese 🧀 with your whine 🍷.

Posted by: Haassaan | Nov 17 2022 23:43 utc | 147

#StopKillingDonbass movement announcement (via Eva Bartlett):

On November 19, 2022, we want to once again draw the world’s attention to the fact that peaceful citizens of Donbass are subjected to endless shelling by the Ukrainian army & neo-Nazi paramilitary units of Ukraine…
Since 2014, the collective West has provided over $41 billion in military aid to Ukraine & continues to supply arms…It’s well known that NATO shells are being fired on cities, fragments from French, American, German & Spanish ammunition are found at the scenes of attacks…
We are announcing another peaceful action in Italy, France & Spain on November 19 with an appeal to the leaders of these countries
-stop supplying weapons to Ukraine
-abandon the “sanctions war” with Russia
– Resume direct dialogue with Moscow.

Saturday, November 19, 2022
France:
Paris, Place Jacques Rueff, 15:00
Lyon, Place de la Croix-Rousse, 15:00
Perpignan, Jardin Terrus, 15:00
Rouen, City Hall, 15:00
Italy:
Milan, Piazza Castello, 16:00
Province of Verona, Sommacampagna, Palapesca, 19:00
Spain:
San Sebastián, Quiosco Boulevard, 12:00

Posted by: S | Nov 17 2022 23:58 utc | 148

@Haassaan | Nov 17 2022 23:43 utc | 147
and
@Ed Nelson | Nov 17 2022 23:37 utc | 145
Was that you responding to me, or was it a sock-puppet? I can’t tell.
Please let me know below. Thank you very much.

Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 18 2022 0:02 utc | 149

I thought this very short but pithy video summed up the very sad state of western leaders in a comedic sense
https://youtube.com/shorts/q_BBzakfh7o?feature=share

Posted by: Oh | Nov 18 2022 0:04 utc | 150

if the shoe fits, doesn’t matter who is saying it… why the fuck are you here sean? you have nothing good to say.. i am sure there is a reason, but it ain’t obvious..

Posted by: james | Nov 18 2022 0:05 utc | 151

Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 17 2022 23:11 utc | 143
You win the thread. That’s been pretty much my attitude the last couple months.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Nov 18 2022 0:05 utc | 152

Tedder said.. tell Cubans or Chinese Covid was a hoax.
1st. There’s no COVID only a lab made spike protein.
The Identity of the Virus: Health/ Science Institutions Worldwide “Have No Record” of SARS-COV-2 Isolation/Purification. Dr. Christine Massey, Dec. 2021.
US lawyer Dr Francis Boyle, who has drafted Bio-Warfare Regs. has evidence that Harvard U Chem. Dept. Dr. Charles Lieber & Oz. Health Dept aided Wuhan Labs in the project to create the bio-weapon spike protein.. in which AIDS codes are embedded. (Indian Docs)
A fake test was used to start the scam-demic. Dr. Kary Mullis, inventor of the PCR test stated that his test only idents strands of DNA from Hep. and various Flus, and that the test was NEVER intended to be used as a diagnostic tool.
US Dr. Elisabeth Eads studies noted that the PCR test gives 97% false positives. The quick antigen test gives a 40% false negative!
Also the Chinese do NOT use the mRNA injections.
mRNA injections contain, in various calculated amounts, (to ensure not everybody drops dead on injection, as some do), lab verified: graphene, Dr A Noack, Dr. P. Campra, Prof M. Chossudovsky. AIDS. Dr V Zalenko. Dr. A. Burkhardt. Hep. J of Hepatology. Cancer. Dr. J. Ruby.
One example. Austrian graphene Research Scientist/Med. Dr. Andreas Noack was MURDERED after he released his evidence of graphene in the 4 mRNA injections, and describing it as ”razor blades in the blood that will kill all who get it”.
The safe Chinese VAccines, Sinovac, (that I had in Siam) and Sinopharm are based on inactivated DNA strands.

Posted by: Thomas Turk | Nov 18 2022 0:11 utc | 153

It seems likely that if Ukraine consulted with a NATO country in planning this attack, that country was most likely to be the United Kingdom, not Poland.
The British had already had plans to sabotage the Crimea Bridge. We know already that Boris Johnson, while still Prime Minister, visited Zelensky twice earlier in 2022 to persuade him not to negotiate with the Russians but to continue fighting.
Posted by: Jen | Nov 17 2022 22:17 utc | 125
Jen, you make a good point about the UK. I have noticed that UK isn’t saying much about Ukraine except the usual babble about how the UK must support Zelensky. Support them with what? They are completely fucking broke. I suspect they would like nothing more than to start WWIII and push the US smack dab into it.
Still, I haven’t accepted that the incident in Poland was anything more than a misfired Ukrainian missile. But the counter evidence is really starting to build up.

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Nov 18 2022 0:11 utc | 154

And the Chinese Docs//Med Auth. insisted all along to ONLY use the fake PCR test, hence their total mess and utter confusion/

Posted by: Thomas Turk | Nov 18 2022 0:14 utc | 155

@SeanAU@143;
Amen to that!! 💯

Posted by: Moaobserver | Nov 18 2022 0:16 utc | 156

Posted by: Thomas Turk | Nov 18 2022 0:11 utc | 153
I’m sorry is this the “covid” thread. I thought it was the Ukraine thread.

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Nov 18 2022 0:16 utc | 157

Surovikin is on the eastern bank of the Dnieper. Destroying and degrading what is left of what was once a viable country on the western bank. No more Ukraine. Defensively secure Surovikin will systematically destroy any semblance of a viable country. Surovikin is using Zhukov’s 1943 plan against von Manstein’s army. The little comedian on the propaganda piano in Kiev is no Erich von Manstein. More Eric Morecombe. Those Russians. Sure know how to win a war on the Dnieper. Like a great boxer. Can absorb a punch. Even a knockdown. But in the last rounds of big fights they keep punching. Keep coming. Because like all great fighters they know it isnt the ability to throw a punch that counts in big fights. Its the capacity to absorb big punches and still keep coming. That is the difference between a Russian army and a Anglo European one. The British always ran to the sea in wars on continental Europe. The Russians had no sea to evacuate to. Always fought with their backs to the motherland. Tough people make tough armies. They have never been defeated on the Dnieper. And they wont be now.

Posted by: Paul McGrory | Nov 18 2022 0:17 utc | 158

re: james | Nov 18 2022 0:05 utc | 151
at best he/she/it is a time waster.

Posted by: tucenz | Nov 18 2022 0:25 utc | 159

The US always betrays and abandons its proxies. Zelensky and Ukraine are no different. The backing off has been going on subtly for weeks, but the Polish missile crisis does seem a turning point. Winter is here and Russia has no made life close to unbearable for large swaths of the Ukrainian population. That makes life very difficult for the government of Ukraine. Ukraine’s sponsors are starting to have to think about their own problems. Biden has a hostile house of reps in a few weeks and needs to start looking towards running. Trump is going to be a destabilizing distraction.
And the reality is that Kherson withdrawal aside, the AFU is being steadily worn down. It also has to deal with winter but unlike the Russian side will have little hope of troop rotations to better conditions for rest.
The bridges may be a grand corruption scheme. It may also be that bridges aren’t that easy to really destroy. Or it may also be that the civilians on the east side of those bridges can use them, likely will use them with the energy problems and that reduces human shields for the AFU. If Russia is planning a winter offensive, trapping the civilians is problematic. There is almost certainly a winter offensive because Russia can’t keep 300k mobilized reservists mobilized indefinitely. When is anyone’s guess, but I’d wager on after civilians start leaving, as civilian flows west will complicate resupply and maneuver moving east.

Posted by: Lex | Nov 18 2022 0:25 utc | 160

It’s reported that railway tracks have exploded in the Odessa region… not under Russian control.
The tracks in the Odessa region were blown up.
The railroad received a report of a freight train stoppage as a result of a railroad track explosion on the Berezovka – Rauhovka section.
The Russian Army did not do this one, ergo it’s…
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/20904

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 18 2022 0:29 utc | 161

re: james | Nov 18 2022 0:05 utc | 151
at best he/she/it is a time waster.
Posted by: tucenz | Nov 18 2022 0:25 utc | 159
I’m not referring to james, but am referring to subject of comment.

Posted by: tucenz | Nov 18 2022 0:30 utc | 162

Thomas Turk | Nov 18 2022 0:11 utc | 153
Take
Your
Comment
To
The
NOT
Ukraine thread.
And along with whoever else is derailing and shitting up the
fucking
UKRAINE
Thread.
FFS.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 18 2022 0:34 utc | 163

Russian missile hits Poland. Article 5 says when NATO country is attacked by a non-NATO country then NATO must defend against the aggressor. Sound the alarms boys, we’re going to war against Russia.
Oops. False alarm. It was a Ukrainian missile. Never mind.
Do we sound the alarm since a NATO country was attacked by a non-NATO country? Are we going to war against Ukraine?
Huh? I don’t get it.

Posted by: Average Joe | Nov 18 2022 0:39 utc | 164

@Ed Nelson | Nov 17 2022 23:37 utc | 145
Was that you responding to me, or was it a sock-puppet? I can’t tell.
Please let me know below. Thank you very much.
Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 18 2022 0:02 utc | 149
Yes SeanAU, I was being facetious when I responded to your comment at Posted by: SeanAU | Nov 17 2022 23:11 utc | 143.
You seem to like insulting everyone by not pointing out anyone one, so I assume that you consider all of us stupid. Let’s review your comments below.
“Nothing here is influencing a single government or country or media or anything on earth at all. I cannot imagine any Intel agency would give this place the time of day, ever. Barely none of [?] passes through here is real anyway. People have opinions – big deal, not. It re Most of the so-called “experts” recommended here are not really experts at all. Or credible or reliable enough for my standards. I don’t have any use for opinionated guesswork and stabs in the dark by profuse attention seeking “commentators”. [?] ally amounts to nothing more than every other saloon bar on the planet. Full of Blow-Hards!….
Obviously, you are a cut above the rest of us so perhaps you belong in a better “saloon” since the level of “experts” here do not meet your “your standard.” Perhaps you ought to consult the CIA, they may have information that they are not sharing with the MoA. And as far as who is a “Blow Hard” I think you are of top quality.

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Nov 18 2022 0:45 utc | 165

On the topic of the MH17, what does Russia have to say about international institutions and the ” rule of international law” now ? They must know that both are only used against weak nations and opponents of ZioAmerica, yet Russia persists with their praises. Not to mention the obvious question of why did Russia give the black boxes to the EU when they could have had them examined publicly in Russia. That would have ended this whole charade right there and then. The whole world would know who shot the plane down. Yet Russia gave them back knowing this would happen. Begs many questions.

Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | Nov 18 2022 0:48 utc | 166

For me the attack on poland is a PsyOp of the nato secret services to remove zelensky.
1/ it is no longer valid for the new PsyOp and to leave the place a new and fresher puppet.
do you find it normal?
2/ The Deep state is preparing for the future Republican investigations on the bidens and they will eliminate the witnesses one by one starting with zelensky, porochenko ….prepare the much popcorn and free time
do you find it normal? I conclude that we really live in a crazy world
Video metaverse des fous
https://twitter.com/JusticeNetDz/status/1593399189375012864?s=20&t=FgifiEFGH7uJyt2ICOwG1g
https://twitter.com/JusticeNetDz/status/1593400187128528901?s=20&t=FgifiEFGH7uJyt2ICOwG1g

Posted by: Ahmed | Nov 18 2022 0:52 utc | 167

reply to Klaus 106
Thanks for reading my post, I see we disagree, let me give you some sources that reflect my views. And thank you again.
Re Monsanto 1 and 2: Monsanto is heavily engaged in Ukraine
https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos
Re Russia organic: you are wrong, Russia is a world leader in organics and restoring Ukraine soil is not a stretch
https://sustainablepulse.com/2015/12/03/putin-russia-will-be-worlds-largest-supplier-of-healthy-organic-food/
https://yugagro.org/Articles/heres-how-russia-is-planning-to-shake-up-orga
https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2018/06/13/putins-organic-empire-how-billionaires-are-remaking-russian-agriculture/
re Euro sustainable: probably not and would not be the first currency to fall. The pound may go as well.
https://tomluongo.me/2022/08/02/media-davos-losing-europe-over/
https://theduran.com/gonzalo-lira-the-roundtable-33-alex-krainer-tom-luongo/
re Italy leaving: yes it is possible, and if the energy, food, immigration crisis continues, quite possible. BRICS is a viable alternative for them.
https://www.gzeromedia.com/italexit-will-italy-be-next-to-leave-the-eu
https://www.theweek.co.uk/108032/will-italy-leave-the-eu-after-coronavirus
re Crypto for money laundering. ALL money is laundered one way or another and banks are receptive to crypto
https://coinstatics.com/crypto-friendly-banks-usa/

Posted by: Bonami | Nov 18 2022 0:54 utc | 168

The US always betrays and abandons its proxies. Zelensky and Ukraine are no different. The backing off has been going on subtly for weeks, but the Polish missile crisis does seem a turning point. Posted by: Lex | Nov 18 2022 0:25 utc | 160
Speaking of a proxy betrayed by the US. The Iran-Iraq War of 1980 to 1988 was a grinding, bloody, and in the end, completely pointless conflict. It was sparked by the Iranian Revolution, led by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, which overthrew Shah Pahlavi in 1978-79. The war was nothing less than a US proxy against Iran conducted by Saddam Hussein but paid for by the US, including banned chemicals. A few years later, Saddam became the mother of all abandoned proxies.

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Nov 18 2022 0:59 utc | 169

The S-300 is an anti-air missile. There are no anti-tractor or anti-Ukrainian-Apartment-Building variants. To make it the kind of missile you can fire against land targets would require a complete re-engineering of the entire system; the warhead is a proximity-fused fragmentation charge that hurls a cloud of shrapnel which would only cause pock-marking of a concrete building, and the missile is a semi-active homer which receives a fly-to point at launch via a rear-reference unit; subsequent corrections sent via the parent radar, which is tracking both the missile and the target, cause minute movements of the control vanes to alter the missile’s direction until it and the target are close enough together for the proximity fuse to sense the target. When its doppler tells it it is as close as its path will take it, it explodes. There is no radar on the missile. CNN and Yahoo and other sandbox military analysts keep insisting it has a guidance system which allows the missile to ‘latch on’ to the target. In fact, the guidance system is on the ground with the launcher.
The radar which acquires the air target and monitors both missiles and targets is optimized for detection of moving targets in otherwise-featureless airspace, using Moving Target Indicator (MTI) processing. It will not see a building or a tractor because land targets are lost in ground clutter and MTI deliberately disregards everything which is moving at less than, say, 250 knots; the speed is adjustable, but there’s nothing much of interest to the anti-air world below that except helicopters and slow-flying drones.
If it’s an anti-air missile, then who was most likely firing it? Russia? At what? Ukraine has virtually no Air Force left, and a Ukrainian drone noodling around over Poland is of no serious concern to Russia. But Russia has been raining destruction on Ukrainian utilities and other high-priority targets from the air. Ukraine has both the S-300 (which has seen service in more than 20 nations, and the USA has had an entire system ‘for testing’ since the mid-90’s) and a good reason to be firing it to try and take out incoming Russian cruise missiles. These were simply defensive launches by Ukraine that failed to hit their target. There was never any need to lie, it has simply become reactive for Ukraine to lie.
Western journalists toss off ‘S-300’ the same way they say ‘boots on the ground’, because they think it makes them sound hip and combat-savvy. Most would not recognize an S-300 if it fell through the ceiling of their living room while they were watching football.

Posted by: Mark | Nov 18 2022 1:01 utc | 170

Sorry everyone. CoVee, climate, gender, toxins, race, discrimination and another dozen all fake issues. Climate was king and just when everyone thought it would be on top forever, along came Covee. The little anti-Trump hoax that could. Just another flu, not all that bad. Yes. Fake.
History a lot of the time never corrects itself. Maybe on all these too. Newsom will go down in history as the one who discovered there were more than three genders.
Oh well.
No, no debate. I already read the 20 billion climate studies and they’re all fake. But I agree, the next one could be it.

Posted by: Swamprat | Nov 18 2022 1:02 utc | 171

reply to watcher 118
Thanks 🙂

Posted by: Bonami | Nov 18 2022 1:09 utc | 172

@ tucenz | Nov 18 2022 0:30 utc | 162
sounds valid.. we all do it, but some excel at it i suppose.. i don’t frequent a zillion sites.. i find certain posts extremely relevant and i say so when i see them too.. bob jenkins post – i hadn’t read that and thought it was relevant.. for me this is a community where people can share anything they believe is of value.. for someone to say it is all worthless and not worth their time – fine – go elsewhere… i got a laugh out of @ Haassaan | Nov 17 2022 23:43 utc | 147 which is bang on!

Posted by: james | Nov 18 2022 1:10 utc | 173

Lex | Nov 18 2022 0:25 utc | 160
I always enjoy a serve of understatement::”Trump is going to be a destabilizing distraction”. Thanks.
Re Ukrainian displaced persons. They are, indeed, going to have a real hard time. Europe embraced the first wave with enthusiastic “Take That Putin” vigour.
Britain (other countries also), ladled out ££££ to various quasi govt/NGO entities to matchmaker homeowners/hosts with hapless Ukrainians.
Seems the £££ have run out, energy bills have skyrocketed, and the hosts are doubly disenchanted as the Ukrainian charity recipients weren’t nearly as grateful as it behooved them to be.
~ Dinner / house guests can wear thin towards the end of a visit…
Across Europe there’s reports of Ukrainians receiving special treatment, triggering resentment among the locals. Ukrainians are rapidly earning a reputation as rude, demanding, entitled and even contemptuous of the billets offered them.
Until now Ukrainians have always passed or been synonymous/interchangeable with Russians. Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, and Poles… especially Poles have considered Russians…. rough, rude, and obnoxious.
I wonder if it’s actually been Ukrainians deserving this reputation all along… ?
Regardless, European close contact with everyday Ukrainians has certainly tarnished.
So the next wave are not going to be festooned with flowers and freebies like the first flush.
Europe itself is energy conscious, price conscious. And confronting the everyday consequences of a hybrid war with Russia they know they were suckered into.
Another Ukrainian arriving with expectations and demands for succour is the last thing the people of Europe.. or their governments, want..

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 18 2022 1:10 utc | 174

Hey Ahmed and others
Look you may well be right about a deep state conspiracy but there is a general rule of management/causes for all incidents; if it is a choice between a conspiracy or a stuff up, the stuff up is the most likely – this of course might include a conspiracy gone wrong.
My gut feeling on the Polish missile is that it was an effort by Z to entice the USA into sending more weapons or even boots on the ground. He was aware that enthusiasm is failing, because the monetary costs is so high, the FX collapse has taken away money and confidence, there is more evidence of fraud/resale of weapons and frankly the US is broke. So Z needed to get more enthusiasm, especially during the G20.
Now Z and his army guys probably consulted with some NATO people, but possibly not any at a senior level. He probably consulted with Poland – even high level, the UK military, but possibly not the PM and one faction of the USA- probably CIA. Moreover that consultation took place a week or so before the strike, and Z and NATO were not yet familiar with the outcomes of the Russia/USA security meeting in Ankara.
So come the day, no one has informed Z of changes in strategy and he goes ahead anyway. However the Ankara talks seem to have gone badly for the USA, in that they realise that Russia has now become serious. Burns was ALWAYS aware of this (thanks to the poster who told us that recently – sorry forgotten just who it was but thanks to you- it was fascinating). Anyway perhaps Burns got enough evidence at that meeting to finally convince people in the USA, that it was getting serious and Russia was getting very angry indeed. The USA decided that poking the bear has become too dangerous and when Z when rogue, they have dropped him in the sewage.

Posted by: watcher | Nov 18 2022 1:12 utc | 175

@ Bonami | Nov 18 2022 0:54 utc | 168 with the various links and commentary…thanks
I agree that there are potential cracks in the EU and the Euro over agriculture issues but think it is mostly financial…Italy has a lot of debt…
About “banks” being receptive to crypto there is the story below from Wall Street On Parade…a bit OT, sorry
The Latest Digital Token Scheme from Hell: New York Fed Teams Up with Citigroup and Sullivan & Cromwell
The take away quote

Just two business days after the crypto exchange FTX filed for bankruptcy and headlines swirled around the world suggesting it had used its crypto token to perpetuate a massive fraud reminiscent of Madoff’s Ponzi scheme, the New York Fed thought this would be an ideal time to announce it was launching a digital token pilot with the serial fraudster, Citigroup.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 18 2022 1:15 utc | 176

Average Joe | Nov 18 2022 0:39 utc | 164
>…”Article 5 says when NATO country is attacked by a non-NATO country then NATO must defend against the aggressor.”
MUST
No Article 5 does *not* say that….despite what CNN tells you.
Article 5 says an attack on one member of the alliance can be considered an attack on all.
Article 5 can be invoked, but it is not *automatically* triggered.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 18 2022 1:18 utc | 177

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 18 2022 1:10 utc | 174
Absolutely Mel (is it OK if I shorten it)
We hear very little now about refugees, but it would be amazing if there has not been a huge upsurge in the last two weeks.
The very fact that we are NOT hearing about cars waiting to cross into Poland is suspicious.

Posted by: watcher | Nov 18 2022 1:20 utc | 178

It’s extremely unlikely that anything Zekensky does or says is not expertly choreographed by his Western handlers and acted out flawlessly, no matter how many takes they have to do. This includes the latest “crisis” with the missile, now being played like he and the West are in disagreement.
Everyone on here can have spent 40 years watching nothing but the lies and continuous fake news coming out of America, then call us stupid. You’re all more stupid. Non-western conservatives believe half of the West’s news. You all proved it by how many believe Zekensky and his handlers are really at odds. On the other hand, most actual conservatives in America don’t believe any of it. Zero. In fact, the reason a lot of us are so smart is we take our news, then assume the opposite to be factual. We don’t even need other news, except perhaps as an occasional check.
Zekensky at odds with his U.S. handlers. Give me a break.
The question is why are Zelensky and West pretending they are at odds. That’s question.

Posted by: Swamprat | Nov 18 2022 1:25 utc | 179

when it actually gets too hot and it could comes to actually fighting as NATO they run away.
Posted by: George | Nov 17 2022 22:01 utc | 121
—
It was always about trying to collapse Russia via trade sanctions, financial isolation, economic implosion and social media inspired color revolution.
Long shot but the only shot. The rest has been money laundering, inventory clearance cycling, back stabbing and retreat into the core US zone.
Even at WW2 levels ie public buy in, manufacturing output, mobilization levels, etc, the US couldn’t take on the soviets on their home turf.
As we all know, Nato was a defensive organization geared towards stopping the soviets at Fulda gap with nukes as the primary fall back weapons.
So how could anyone get excited about the zero chance of any zato success given today’s hard realities in terms of output, logistics, manning and sentiment?
I mean, it’s such a ridiculous joke it’s a wonder anyone bothers following the war. So yes the moment this got even a micron past management comfort levels, a time out was called.
Which, for those paying attention, is the biggest tell of all: Zato blinked.
This really could be over in days if the Russians have been working 24/7 to inventory stocks that would follow the spearhead with convoy rivers rushing to completely install a massive footprint.
Game.set.match

Posted by: B9k9 | Nov 18 2022 1:28 utc | 180

Posted by: Swamprat | Nov 18 2022 1:25 utc | 179
I am of the opinion that there was no “mistake”.
There was no mis-fired s300 (or other missile).
This whole song and dance was choreographed.
The purpose of it was to demonstrate to Russia just how close to invoking Article 4. NATO is willing to go.
It’s a PsyOp from beginning to end and that’s why, for almost the first time ever the NATO leadership was willing to claim in front of the entire world that Russia was actually “not the perpetrator”.
Nobody has been “exposed” for a liar that is already not content with being known as a liar.
But, the appropriate message has been sent to the Russians: WW3 is on the menu …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 18 2022 1:32 utc | 181

#62 – “The English state propaganda media machine the BBC now going with dead bodies and tortured civilians in Kherson story, all eventually killed by the RF before they departed.”
Posted by: Republicofscotland
As predicted by Al-Mayadeen today :
“According to the Kherson emergency services official, some 39 pro-Russian activists were executed in Moscow’s former stronghold.
“Their bodies were not given to relatives and are planned to be used in staged scenes, allegedly testifying to Russian war crimes. 74 people were taken to an unknown destination,” he told reporters.”
Full article : https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/kiev-executes-39-pro-russian-activists-in-kherson—reports
Posted by: Red Star | Nov 17 2022 21:20 utc | 101
You know, either the Russian MoD is as stupid or the MSM is a lying sack crap. I will let you guys choose. One thing is for sure, the western MSM thinks its readers and stupid. If Russia were torturing and killing people in Kherson, why wouldn’t they destroy the evidence before they left Kherson? Of course, Russia didn’t do it, but isn’t it an interesting pattern that that every time the Russia military leaves an area the Nazis “find” bodies, and they always point their fingers at Russia: To cute by half. Biden had better rid himself of these Zelensky and his Nazis before he finds himself knee deep in a most reprehensible scandal.

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Nov 18 2022 1:34 utc | 182

@ Mark | Nov 18 2022 1:01 utc | 170
Sorry, false. The export models of S-300P & subvariants are designed for addition use in Ground attack if loading the correct missile. Max range depends on weather is USSR/RF model, or export only.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 18 2022 1:39 utc | 183

About zelenskies demands: my response..
Yes, you can have lugansk, donetsk and crimea back after a UN organised referendum which asks the question: “Do you want to return to Ukraine”.
The result must be binding by both sides and recognised by the international communuty as final.
I suspect Kiev wont take up this MOST REASONABLE OFFER to solve the status of these regions once and for all. Why? Because they know the outcome of such a vote!

Posted by: HERMIUS | Nov 18 2022 1:40 utc | 184

james @ 151
the real james does not speak like this. likely troll

Posted by: JW | Nov 18 2022 1:48 utc | 185

watcher | Nov 18 2022 1:12 utc | 175
Yep. My view runs an almost parallel track.
The comment I purloined from New Atlas and pasted here … that guy says the (missile/whatever) that went the wrong direction into Poland went in 2-3 hours AFTER Russia had ceased its deliveries.
So it (seems) certain the Ukrainians sent something deliberately.
I think Ze and his team were freelancing. The pianist and his videographers wouldn’t know anything about s-300s … their range limit meaning it would be obvious to anyone with expertise that it couldn’t be Russia.
It’s known Ze and Zaluzhnyi are in conflict. He wouldn’t have been consulted.
I’m with you in thinking Ze spoke to his fans and supporters in Poland, US State Dept and got some sort of green light. He probably doesn’t realise he’s been relegated to mostly dealing with contacts rated at the third or fourth level of decision making.
Having some experience with bureaucracy, both government and large corporations… the timing intrigues me.
The A team were travelling. Having senior management Out of Office and only sporadically available by phone…. Interesting things happen (in my experience) The A team had “done” Cambodia and were now “doing” Bali. They were busy and distracted.
Ze proposes this crazy idea…to him and his production crew, one missile is the same as any other… he speaks to the US or UK cohort who are his day-to-day contacts, who are itching to escalate… and they use delegated authority to yes… it’s GoGoGo…”bombs away”.
Over in Bali, A Team discover, while they were busy with cocktails and keeping tabs on who was glad-handling who… Poland and the media have started WW3.
There’s a pic of Rishi seated , talking,(back to camera) with Biden, Shultz, Macron, Sánchez(Spain) all clustered around, looking very flustered.
If war starts now, they’ll have to miss the canapés….
So. Sorry Ze. NWW3 for you.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 18 2022 1:53 utc | 186

Posted by: Bob Jenkins | Nov 17 2022 17:15 utc | 37
Yes I am also curious about the Titanium shipments, Pepe Escobar also made reference to them. Seems though it is a subject best left alone as it might taint the pro Russia narrative. Personally think it better the honestly deal with all issues, even if they may turn out uncomfortable. Maybe its not true, but…

Posted by: Organic | Nov 18 2022 1:56 utc | 187

Uwe | Nov 17 2022 21:24 utc | 103 – “Maybe the picture of the tractor and the part of the S-300 was just to show something, but not what really happened. Everything in the fog of war.”
I know B doesn’t like crazy conspiracy theories, but you brought it up so I figure it’s fair game: to the more skeptical amongst us .mil geeks, the whole thing has played out EXACTLY like they always do when the U.S. is trying to hide something. In no particular order of significance:
“Unlikely Polish photo”? An event of this magnitude that kills two of your countrymen and only ONE person decides to take and share a SINGLE image from a SINGLE viewpoint of the ONLY chunk of missile they happened to find… that happens to kind of look like part of a 5V55 S-300 missile? Yeah… NO. There are markings on the other side, but they didn’t bother flipping it over? Preposterous. And did their cell phone run out of film? Any NORMAL person would have taken a bunch of images of everything and anything and eventually shared a lot of them. The Polish internet isn’t down – they would have shared no more than that one, single image?
Now if you were a foreign [cough] [U.S.] military intelligence spook trying to front-run the narrative because your boys screwed up somehow, then this would be the single image I would choose to set the armchair OSINT girls into a tizzy to ‘analyze’ the evidence.
Now consider the weird reaction of Crackey-Z… sorry, *Zelensky*. If nothing else, this guy is slick, media-savy and does not intentionally make a fool out of himself as Commander-in-Chief. To us eternally skeptical, it’s clear that he was totally blindsided by whatever happened and has no idea, still insisting that Ukraine ‘investigators’ be allowed to check out the site. In other words, his U.S. paymasters never bothered telling him what happened and apparently don’t plan on ever doing so. If Crackey-Z knows it wasn’t THEIR SAMs, then of course he wants to send his Stazi to find evidence that it was Russia. He won’t – the U.S. would have long since sanitized the site if they were doing something naughty.
Now consider Poland. Two citizens killed by something from somewhere. You would think they would be pretty pissed off about this. But they shut right up after they jointly – with the U.S. – somehow determined that it wasn’t a missile fired by Russia. No explanation, no evidence, nothing… Instead, they go into ‘Nothing to see here, folks. Move along’ mode. That’s suspicious as hell. Either they were directly involved in it (as U.S. vassals) or know enough about what the U.S. was doing that they know to shut up about it.
I believe there were victims, but haven’t heard details of who/where the two victims were or other circumstances, but whatever we hear is irrelevant. We’re only ever going to hear the pre-manufactured narrative, not the real story.
What exactly happened? Anyone’s guess is as good as mine. U.S. drones blown away by someone? Someone trying to down Russian drones or cruise missiles with air-to-air missiles fired from inside Poland? NATO SAMs targeting something and going astray? U.S. sending a cruise missile from Poland into a Ukrainian nuke plant as a false flag, but Russia finds out and takes care of business? Who knows, but it *seems* like whatever happened, the US or NATO cronies are involved and don’t want anyone to know, and Poland is playing the obedient lapdog. The whole thing smells like an op to cover something up to me.

Posted by: PavewayIV | Nov 18 2022 2:01 utc | 188

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 18 2022 1:53 utc | 186
“miss the canapes” – love it.

Posted by: watcher | Nov 18 2022 2:11 utc | 189

A couple of smallish bombs lobbed westwards into Polish territory killing two Polish farmers working their fields? Why not chalk it up as an example of the “creative violence” so beloved by the Ukrainian nationalists? Dmytro Dontsov would wax poetical over a murderous act like this.
The Ukrainians are feeling celebratory.
But I also sense deviousness of course. How about regime change in Poland? The Straussian Dems would be delighted to see the PO (Civic Platform) take charge in Poland. It is the party affiliated with Radek Sikorsky (Anne Applebaum’s husband) and U.S. Ambassador to Poland, Mark Brzezinski (son of Zbigniew Brzezinski). Restlessness in the Polish countryside may be politically advantageous- worth a try?
Coordinate with British lies re. MH17. Now that’s creative!

Posted by: Australian lady | Nov 18 2022 2:20 utc | 190

@ JW | Nov 18 2022 1:48 utc | 185
wrong… i flip from polite to harsh when the occasion requires it… you haven’t been here that long, or you don’t know me..

Posted by: james | Nov 18 2022 2:23 utc | 191

@ Australian lady 190
BINGO!
This BS about missiles landing in Poland is complete crap. The more I look at the limited photos the more I see the scam.
If we buy this fraud and kiss it off as an off-track S-300 we deserve to be the victims of the scam that is being perpetrated against us.
I’m still sticking with the grain elevator explosion, but give a lot of credence to your suggestion of sabotage.

Posted by: Fiji Refugee | Nov 18 2022 2:28 utc | 192

@ PavewayIV | Nov 18 2022 2:01 utc | 188
Certainly one possible explanation re the strange sequence, ‘evidence’ and interactions.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 18 2022 2:29 utc | 193

PavewayIV | Nov 18 2022 2:01 utc | 188
“…The whole thing smells like an op to cover something up to me.”
Yep. We’re all armchairing here taking pieces of the jigsaw to see what part of the puzzle we can solve.
Earlier in thread I posted that Poland President has said that no pieces of the second missile are in Poland….
Well. So there was a second missile? He kinda confirmed it.
“No longer in Poland”…. Well not now, now that the cleaning team has left.
JAKE11… standing off at 33,000ft, in the most serendipitous coincidental location in Poland?
Gives me Spidey tingles. This isn’t my first psy-op / false flag or whatever the fuck this is…

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 18 2022 2:29 utc | 194

Is this true ?
– ISRAEL GRANTS NATO MEMBERS PERMISSION TO SUPPLY WEAPONS WITH ISRAELI COMPONENTS TO UKRAINE –
https://en.socportal.info/en/news/izrail-predostavil-chlenam-nato-razreshenie-na-postavku-v-ukrainu-vooruzhenii-s-izrailskimi-komponentami/

Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | Nov 18 2022 2:30 utc | 195

@ james, 191
In that case you’re an asshole who should be banned. You have no business making determinations of “when the occasion requires it” and I’ve been here longer than you boy. Much longer. I’ll be speaking to Bernhard about you. Off-site. Youre in the UK, right?

Posted by: JW | Nov 18 2022 2:38 utc | 196

@146 (George)
US politics is 100% controlled divide and conquer.
Race, Gender whatever, it’s always some blend of divisive garbage designed to keep the ‘little people’ fighting while the politicians and their well placed friends manipulate and steal
If more people would wake up to this, instead of buying into it, we’d be in a much better place.

Posted by: Bob Jenkins | Nov 18 2022 2:45 utc | 197

@ JW | Nov 18 2022 2:38 utc | 196
Wrong on every single one of your points. 0 outta 6. Alas, No cupie doll, for you.
You’d be well advised to cease & desist this utter nonsense, if you’re legitimate, your call.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 18 2022 2:46 utc | 198

This is my take on events at News Forensics, in an article where I quote b. and his superb analyses.
https://julianmacfarlane.substack.com/p/putins-winnin-weakness
Bob in Portland writes: Please note that a court in the Netherlands convicted two Russians and one Ukrainian for the downing of MH-17.
The announcement coincides with the rocket to Poland. In propaganda there’s a concept called “bad jacketing”. If two days ago you were worried about whether or not Russia was expanding its war to NATO, these convictions are to re-inflame passions.
He is exactly right. The “bad jacket” includes Russian successes degrading Ukrainian infrastructure, Democratic loss of the House, Trumps declaration of a 2024 Bid and polls that say he would win against Biden, and the FTX Scandal — among others.

Posted by: julianmacfarlane | Nov 18 2022 2:58 utc | 199

What Zelenskyy perhaps fails to appreciate is the highly contentious environment in which the war in Ukraine gets discussed in other countries, and how far out on a limb people who are sensitive about their reputations have gone with their support of Ukraine, and with their defense of the Zelenskyy regime against skeptics, and those who outright favor the case that Russia presents.
Zelenskyy has painted them in a corner, especially in America where the Biden administration is more often than not also supported by Ukraine’s supporters.
Those supporters aren’t going to suggest that the Biden administration got it wrong about the missile origins, and they will get confronted about Zelenskyy’s insistence that in effect the Biden administration is wrong.
This will get thrown in their faces in the future. “If Zelenskyy would tell such a bold faced lie about the missile origins, or is so far disconnected from reality to not know better, how can you believe anything he asserts without there being verifiable documentation for it?”.
In other words, Zelenskyy’s credibility is gone, just like that, in a poof of smoke, after telling a monumental lie, one of Baghdad Bob proportions.

Posted by: Babel-17 | Nov 18 2022 3:08 utc | 200

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