Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 17, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-201

Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Zelensky's lies about the Ukrainian missile strike in Poland have damaged his credibility.


bigger

We can hope that the media will now be more careful when they report of all the other lies Zelensky and his team are uttering on a daily base.

Posted by b on November 17, 2022 at 15:28 UTC | Permalink

Comments
next page »

Well, well, well, Zelensky's days are clearly numbered, in this world.

No calls for, you ! (Biden)

Intel Slava Z
🇺🇲🇺🇦⚡Zelensky, after a rocket fell in Poland, asked to organize a call with Biden, but the conversation did not take place, CNN reports.

According to CNN, US national security adviser Jake Sullivan privately urged Kiev to be more careful in its comments on the incident in Poland after Volodymyr Zelensky blamed Russia for it.

“Approximately an hour after the incident became known, Volodymyr Zelensky said in an evening video message that “Russian missiles hit Poland.” Sullivan quickly called Zelensky's office after these statements and urged officials to be more careful about how they talk about the incident, ”CNN reports, citing its sources.

Carried over from previous, even more relevant here.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 17 2022 15:31 utc | 1

Well, it seems like, the cocaine consumption in Kiev is skyrocketing...

Posted by: Aleks BMA | Nov 17 2022 15:36 utc | 2

ZH has a posting up that contains the quote below


Immediately after news broke of the incident, President Zelensky called on NATO to take action against Russia, accusing Moscow of firing the rocket.

However, within hours it became clear that the accident, which killed two people, was actually caused by a Ukrainian air defense missile.

That didn’t stop British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, NATO and other prominent officials blaming Russia for the incident anyway, despite it clearly being Kiev’s fault.

Now the former chairman of the city council of Lublin, the seat of the region where Przewodow is located, is calling for Poland to rethink its approach to the war in light of the incident.

Having up until now been a staunch supporter of Ukraine, Jaroslaw Pakula said the missile accident showed Warsaw needed to send a blunt message to Kiev rather than telling its own citizens “fairy tales.”

“Of course, this is a Ukrainian rocket. Of course, this is a provocation on the part of the Ukrainian authorities,” Pakula posted on his Facebook page.

“The rocket could not be fired 100km in the opposite direction by mistake,” he added, asserting that the incident was an attempt to scare the EU into sending more money to Ukraine.

Demanding that Warsaw should “no longer put up with this behavior” from Ukraine, Pakula remarked, “I urge you to rethink Poland’s position [regarding] this war in the event that the red line is crossed again!”

Despite all evidence indicating the missile was fired by Ukraine, Zelensky has doubled down, denying that Kiev was involved and asking for his country to be at the forefront of an investigation.

However, after President Joe Biden swiftly said the evidence for Russia’s involvement was minimal, CNN reported that Ukrainian military officials told their American and western allies that they were responsible for the blast.

Kiev had “attempted to intercept a Russian missile” at the same location and in the same time france as when the missile strike at the Polish village of Przewowdow occurred, according to the report.

The Associated Press also had to issue a retraction, noting that it had “erroneously” reported that “Russian missiles” had killed two people in Poland, and that this was based on a claim by one single anonymous senior US intelligence official.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 17 2022 15:36 utc | 3

Nato has a urgent need for article 5 against Ukraine attacks.

Posted by: Mikkael | Nov 17 2022 15:41 utc | 4

You can measure the level of desperation by these Ukraine actions. An underfed dog That just doesn't want to stay on the its leash. More to come.. stay tuned.

Posted by: JustTruth | Nov 17 2022 15:43 utc | 5

Lies, all lies by everybody. This war is a depopulation event aimed at everybody in the region Poland ukraine Russia etc.. perhaps coincidentally its also the whitest region on the planet. Next they'll be urging immigration there to restock the labor pool, let's see what decrees zelensky signs after and see how he sells Ukrainian land and its people to the globslists, maybe even its very soil will be stripmined and sold off. The Germans started it in ww2.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Nov 17 2022 15:45 utc | 6

Russia is known more for its famous musicians and composers than operatic stars, but methinks I hear the "fat lady" in a bear costume warming up offstage for her final, grand aria!

Posted by: FHTEX | Nov 17 2022 15:47 utc | 7

As many have pointed out, none of us have any objective way to tell what's really going on here. But certainly, Russia would have zero reason to attack Poland directly: but missiles do go off course. If that did happen, Russia should apologize profusely and offer compensation. Russia has enough trouble dealing with Ukraine, taking on NATO in a more-than-proxy manner would be utter madness. On the other hand, anti-aircraft missiles, when they don't hit their target, have to land somewhere... So both alternatives are plausible.

What is interesting is that the western elites were so quick to deny that it was a Russian missile. You know that if the western elites had wanted to widen the scope of the conflict, they would have claimed it was a Russian missile regardless and then used that as an excuse to do whatever they wanted to do.

Here's a random thought: maybe it really was a Russian missile, but the western elites just aren't ready for that level of escalation (yet) so they lied about it. That would surely drive Zelensky crazy, yes?

Posted by: TG | Nov 17 2022 15:53 utc | 8

The "souring" relationship with ukraine and usa has been ongoing for couple weeks. Biden apparently lost his temper with zelensky when he asked for more weapons. The novelty may be wearing off. Boris will have to go visit to offer his shoulder to cry on.

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Nov 17 2022 15:53 utc | 9

Interesting moment for Ukraine to be found to be lying about errant missile - re mh17.

Do they know the serial number and can they confirm that it was/was not among those held by Ukraine?

Posted by: jared | Nov 17 2022 15:55 utc | 10

TG | Nov 17 2022 15:53 utc | 8

Zelensky is crazy already without outside help.

And no it was not an attack by Russia.

Posted by: Lapin | Nov 17 2022 15:56 utc | 11

Today Zelensky is still adamant it was a Russian missile … he demands to have his corrupt SBU be part of the investigation on the ground … likely urging Jens that UA has a veto on the final report.

Posted by: Oui | Nov 17 2022 15:56 utc | 12

They put him up to it, but once it became too blatant, they got mad at him bc his crying wolf will make it harder to do next time.

imo.

Posted by: polarbear4 | Nov 17 2022 16:00 utc | 13

That Zelensky and media and others are caught lying and spreading unfounded claims is a very positive outcome which should be welcomed and enjoyed.

Posted by: jared | Nov 17 2022 16:02 utc | 14

Thank you, b.

This is not just 'getting' ridiculous - it has been ridiculous ever since February when Zelensky made public his 'need' for a nuclear weapon. It was ridiculous when he shelled Ukraine's own nuclear power station. It was ridiculous when he claimed all atrocities were being committed by the Russians against the civilians in Bucha and everywhere else.

But 'ridiculous' doesn't cover only crazy statements by a desperate fool -- it tries to wrap itself around all the western press recriminations against Russian leadership, the refusal to stand by the Minsk decisions which were agreed to before all in public. The refusal to even discuss Russia's well formulated anxieties.

And it won't wash. The whole sorry enterprise to defeat Russia at enormous cost to the Ukrainians and to the rest of the world. The cost in loss of trust by citizens of their leadership; the cost in loss of trust in the UN itself... I better not go on because I won't be able to stop.

But this all has to. Stop, I mean, stop! This is not the first lie; let it be the last!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: juliania | Nov 17 2022 16:04 utc | 15

Poland is hundreds of miles from Russia with Belarus in between. Unless Russia fired from western edge of Belarus there is no way this Polish strike is by Russia. Also if this was a Ukrainian anti missile missile how the heck would it go in the wrong direction to end up in Poland when any Russian missiles that it was targeting would have come from the opposite direction.
So was it a case of the Ukrainians attempting to make a fake Russian attack on Poland or just an incompetent launch in the wrong direction that they attempted to pass blame to the Russians?

Posted by: Neal | Nov 17 2022 16:05 utc | 16

It's not widely reported by MSM, but Ukraine is in an absolutely precarious situation as a state, as is the state of the army in the SE and Donbass. According to Lvov region authorities, it will take a year to restore the electric grid. People are starting to pack and leave the blackened and non-functional Kiev, and they aren't stopping at Lvov. According to some reports, the border has been shut down in Poland. It's a messy situation.

Additionally, all these strikes can't be without having an effect on logistics for the troops in the SE and Donbass. If Russian strikes continue in the rear, eventually they will be left in the dark, with reduced trickle of supply and vulnerable to counter attack and risk of gradual and complete destruction.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 17 2022 16:10 utc | 17

Let's see: The next four weeks will see winter arrive in Ukraine - snow, cold, ice, frozen pipes in apartment blocks, a desperate and shivering population, with mass death possible, either inside cold rooms or frozen on roads leading to Poland or Russia - a Europe steadily increasingly freaking out due to energy shortages, prices, and a certain flood of refugees appearing from the east - in the United States attention turning to Thanksgiving, then the holidays, the lame duck Congress, all within an impending diesel fuel shortage - growing evidence (see Italian story) of Azov Nazi terror groups all through Europe at least...
My guess is that within two or three weeks the West will be begging for talks with Russia, whom they know they cannot defeat where the Russian troops now are and whom they suspect would defeat the West were Russia to press on through eastern Ukraine to Poland....China lifting Covid rules to save the economy and sure to face a pandemic of its own this winter, meaning China will be turned inward as well....

It's going to be a time of severe and difficult attitude adjustment in the West...

Posted by: Boomheist | Nov 17 2022 16:10 utc | 18

Surfing on some articles in merkur.de following a link on this thread I stumbled on a picture of the underside of the hanger that was said to be hit.Also the picture showed more details from the strange pieces of timber.It is now clear to me that this hole by kinetic impact of S300 is nothing else than a silo where harvested and chopped corn (mais),november and october is harvest time for that,is stored to ferment and be used to feed the cattle in springtime.You can see long H or I profile shaped steel beams.They put them over the big hole and cross the 3,5 meter timber on top,improvising thusly a paveway for the tractor/hanger combination to drive over the silo,and release the chopped corn by hydraulically rising the frontside of the container so that all of the product falls into the silo.You can see the hydraulic system under the hanger.
Because on the field the chopped mais is blown by the harvester/threshing machine in to the container behind the tractor whose driver is keeping pace with the harvester,often there's a bulge forming on one side in the container,and on raising it above the silo it can easily fall over,even without a missile hitting it.

https://www.merkur.de/politik/toedliche-rakete-polen-przewodow-sergej-lawrow-sprecherin-maria-sacharowa-witz-ukraine-zr-91920843.html
Posted by: willie | Nov 17 2022 15:27 utc | 391 copied from missile article

Posted by: willie | Nov 17 2022 16:15 utc | 19

psychohistorian | Nov 17 2022 15:36 utc | 3

Followed by

A Polish politician has blamed Ukraine for causing a “provocation” by falsely claiming its own missile that struck Przewodow had been fired by Russia.

Immediately after news broke of the incident, President Zelensky called on NATO to take action against Russia, accusing Moscow of firing the rocket.

However, within hours it became clear that the accident, which killed two people, was actually caused by a Ukrainian air defense missile.

That didn’t stop British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, NATO and other prominent officials blaming Russia for the incident anyway, despite it clearly being Kiev’s fault.

Now the former chairman of the city council of Lublin, the seat of the region where Przewodow is located, is calling for Poland to rethink its approach to the war in light of the incident.

Having up until now been a staunch supporter of Ukraine, Jaroslaw Pakula said the missile accident showed Warsaw needed to send a blunt message to Kiev rather than telling its own citizens “fairy tales.”

“Of course, this is a Ukrainian rocket. Of course, this is a provocation on the part of the Ukrainian authorities,” Pakula posted on his Facebook page.

“The rocket could not be fired 100km in the opposite direction by mistake,” he added, asserting that the incident was an attempt to scare the EU into sending more money to Ukraine.

Demanding that Warsaw should “no longer put up with this behavior” from Ukraine, Pakula remarked, “I urge you to rethink Poland’s position [regarding] this war in the event that the red line is crossed again!”

Despite all evidence indicating the missile was fired by Ukraine, Zelensky has doubled down, denying that Kiev was involved and asking for his country to be at the forefront of an investigation.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/polish-politician-blasts-ukraine-missile-provocation

Rather than an out of control AD missile, did Ukraine fire it intentionally into an underpopulated part of Poland to increase NATO support? Would they have got away with it if those missile pictures hadn’t been published on Twitter?

Posted by: JohninMK | Nov 17 2022 16:17 utc | 20

No EU leader is ready for 70,000 person Czech type protests. European leaders do not want to explain Nazis terrorist stockpiling possible Ukrainian weapons and planning terror attacks who have strong links to Azov brigade. As general Milley said it is time to start talks. All Russia has to do is take the defensive behind rivers and mountains and increase man power. Ukraine will take 5 to 1 on the offensive against a 500,000 strong army. With the increase in man power the math is not in Ukraine's favor.

Posted by: ATM | Nov 17 2022 16:22 utc | 21

Allow me a wry smile!

What about the avalanche of 'lies' from NATO administrations in the course of the largest PsyOps in living memory?

Posted by: Don Firineach | Nov 17 2022 16:23 utc | 22

From a purely clinical point of view,
One might note with fascination that the belief in falsehood, which is evidently present in the consciousness of the comedian, seems to have almost completely taken over the consciousness of the host organism.

Posted by: Josh | Nov 17 2022 16:24 utc | 23

thanks b...

regarding your last line - i can't see it myself, unless they have another useful idiot to replace zelensky.. the media will not stop spinning its bullshit to serve the interests of the 1%... i just can't see it... so, any change means they are preparing for a new person to take over zelensky.. but this i doubt.. i am sorry i am such a cynical sob.. this is just a temporary lapse - my take.. they have to appear to be objective from time to time!

i skimmed over the comments, but agree with @ juliania | Nov 17 2022 16:04 utc | 15 - this all has to stop.. but i don't think it will.. i hope i am wrong too! the lies are what has gotten the world to this point... on a positive note, the integrity of people has gotten us to this point too.. which will win out?? this reminds me of the cherokee fable -

There is a Cherokee legend about an elderly Cherokee brave who tells his grandson about life.

“Son,” he says, “Within all of us there is a battle of two wolves. One is evil. He is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

He continued, “The other is good. He is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.”

“The same fight is going on inside of you, and inside every other person, too,” explained the wise Cherokee elder.

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”

The grandfather simply replied, “The one you feed.”

fwiw... enjoy the day folks!

Posted by: james | Nov 17 2022 16:34 utc | 24

unimperator@17... actually, you hit on a sore spot for me. Eight months in, trains still run, bridges still stand and train tracks remain mainly undamaged. Ukies roll around the front at will, moving men and material in hours or days(much faster than Russia can redeploy)...for the most part....unmolested.
Does that make sense. What kind of generals blow the shit out of the place but can't stop trains. There are no shortage of pics of Ukie reserves and equipment flowing to the front on trains. It's not a secret. It's out in the open ....does that make sense in a war ....and many have been fooled.

So it turns out, economy trumps war and winning. There is an agreement at the Russian, Ukrainian, Western Oligarch level. Trains and tracks stay open to move....hmm, ore, coal, metals and other commodities, it's a long list. What a fucking joke, thousands dead, maimed, homeless, generations of a nation destroyed and it would have been over in the first few months had rail movement been stopped.

Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Nov 17 2022 16:38 utc | 25

"One might note with fascination that the belief in falsehood, which is evidently present in the consciousness of the comedian, seems to have almost completely taken over the consciousness of the host organism." by josh @22

same for many, many in the u.s., especially our "leaders.'

Posted by: polarbear4 | Nov 17 2022 16:40 utc | 26

I think the arguments over the fiasco are all part of a propaganda game and maybe even scripted in advance.

Even now, CBC says it is likely AA fire from Ukraine, but then quotes the penis pianist stating that he trusts the ukraine army and that it told him the missile is Russian. Maybe it was in a sense -- made in the USSR or Russia, or components if it were long ago. All the average person hears is that Russia might have launched it and Russia bad. The average Canadian isn't much better than the average American when it comes to geography. Most have no idea where Russia and Ukraine are on a map.

Then we have crap like this:
"Whether it was a Russian missile, whether it was Ukrainian air defense, whether the missile came from Mars, it's Russia's fault," said Polish Ambassador to Canada Witold Dzielski. "This situation would not happen if it was not for the Russians."

So rather than blame NATO / West for militarizing Ukraine, loading it up with weapons, running anti-russian propaganda non stop for years, providing military planners, mercenaries, targeting support, satellite recognizance, waging a sanctions war,

we are told that it is Russia's fault because it exists.

Every planned bickering between actors (Trudeau was a drama teacher, Zelensky was an actor) is another excuse to demonize Russia in the daily news feeds.


Posted by: PP | Nov 17 2022 16:45 utc | 27

Please note that a court in the Netherlands convicted two Russians and one Ukrainian for the downing of MH-17. The announcement coincides with the rocket to Poland. In propaganda there's a concept called "bad jacketing". If two days ago you were worried about whether or not Russia was expanding its war to NATO, these convictions are to re-inflame passions.

How do three guys bring down MH-17? I'll have to search for better coverage. In the West these days you have to search hard.

Posted by: Bob In Portland | Nov 17 2022 16:46 utc | 28

Zarathustra (9),

There is no souring of relations, and there is no earnest attempt at negotiations by the U.S. (which probably knows Russia will demand unconditional surrender of Ukraine and a completely new European security arrangement). As Stoltenberg and others in the U.S. have repeatedly stated, "A victory for Russia would be a defeat for NATO". The problem is that NATO cannot afford to lose Ukraine but on the other hand has no capability of winning. We are truly at perhaps the most decisive moment in modern history. The Western powers that have dominated the world for over a half-millennium are now being decimated. Their weapons are obsolete, their troops are woke and disjointed and unprepared, their economies are short of resources and spiraling downward, and the rest of the world is increasingly becoming allied against them. Woe be to the West!

Posted by: FHTEX | Nov 17 2022 16:50 utc | 29

Two comments caught my eye. No 21. It seems to me that the greatest PsyOps in history was the whole covid racket. The SMO doesn’t come close to it in the direct personal abuse that was inflicted on the man in the street. Of course, when we are all dying of hunger in the cold and the dark I might have to revisit that calculation. Then there is No 24. Why are all the trains running? The New Atlas has a theory there. Essentially to use up NATO resources and demilitarise them. I can’t say I’m fully persuaded but it is plausible.

Posted by: Guy L’Estrange | Nov 17 2022 16:51 utc | 30

Russia breaks the record for the amount of missiles it launched against Ukraine a few days ago. Now I recall a few weeks ago the garbage of Zanon and Co. on a previous thread commenting how Russia has no balls, Russia has no missiles, blah blah blah, verbal diarrhea all around. Where are they now? They are always quiet when Russia is accomplishing objectives and then they come out if the wood work in force after a Ukrainian terrorist attack, or false offense. Where are you cockroaches?

Posted by: Al | Nov 17 2022 16:57 utc | 31

@ Josh | Nov 17 2022 16:24 utc | 22

Melaleuca | Nov 17 2022 6:38 utc | 340 posted this on another thread... this video of zelensky fits with your description..
thanks melaleuca..

New hit single just dropped


@ Bob In Portland | Nov 17 2022 16:46 utc | 27

bob.. makes perfect sense.. thanks for the heads up.. i see it on rt news now..

Posted by: james | Nov 17 2022 16:58 utc | 32

Russia has probably capability of launching dozens of missiles on a daily basis for the next 2 years. Thats not even taking into account Russias capability to replenish their stocks. I could see them being able to manufacture at least a similar amount on a daily basis. So that means they have capability of sustaining years and years of daily missile launches.

And thats not even taking into account possibility of purchasing even more missiles from Iran/China.

No wonder Ukraine ans West are so desperate.

Posted by: Comandante | Nov 17 2022 17:09 utc | 33

Russia could have killed Zelensky whenever they wanted, letting the cocaine clown of Babylon live and keep talking has been a brilliant strategy. What a disgusting spectacle this has been, the Jewish leader of a Nazi death cult who can’t stop lying no matter how ridiculous the story is, the perfect front man for the empire of lies.

Posted by: James C | Nov 17 2022 17:09 utc | 34

Looks like the punisher units clearing Kherson have finished there work. News of Russian war crimes starting to come in.

www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-hails-chinas-opposition-nuclear-threats-2022-11-15/
"Investigators in recaptured territory in the area uncovered 63 bodies bearing signs of torture after Russian forces left, Ukraine's interior minister was quoted as saying on Thursday."

29th October
https://archive.ph/3H6ra#selection-1671.0-1701.120
" I don't think that's going to happen. Not this time. Very high price.
— In some cases, the legal system cannot say whether a person is a traitor or not. Rukh CHESNO maintains a register of traitors, and we ask everyone to fill out the online form anonymously if there is information about traitors. What can you say about the mayor of Kherson Kolykhaev — is he a traitor or not?"

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 17 2022 17:09 utc | 35

Ukraine, the election is over. You will be thrown under the bus. Europe doesn't want millions of refugees flooding in.

Posted by: JackG | Nov 17 2022 17:13 utc | 36

@29 Guy L'Estrange

Because Oligarchs don't want their income streams f'd with.

Someone posted a great article about it on 'The Saker' (Credit: Heartlander from "The Saker' forums)

“Attacks on Ukraine’s railroad and critical infrastructure prevent Russian oligarchs from delivering, Sivkov said.

The Ukrainian railway infrastructure has not yet been destroyed, because Russian, Ukrainian and Western oligarchs are interested in this, continuing to earn money together on business schemes that have not changed since the start of the NWO.

Konstantin Sivkov, Deputy President of the Russian Academy of Missile and Artillery Troops, stated this on ORT.

According to Sivkov, Russian titanium is delivered to the West via Ukrainian railways, on which a number of industries, including the military, critically depend.

“Under the existing sanctions that everyone must comply with, there is only one “gray” communication that connects Russia and Europe. These are Ukrainian railways.

Russia produces 87% of the world’s titanium. All this titanium used to go to the needs of the Soviet Union – submarines according to the American classification “Alpha”, according to ours – “Lira” of the 705th project – these were boats made entirely of titanium hulls. 3.5 thousand tons of titanium. The Americans were shocked, because titanium is considered to be at the level of gold in terms of value.

After the destruction of our country by the thieves’ nomenclature of the Soviet Union, titanium became “not needed” here, since there was an interest of the West, primarily the United States, to get this titanium. The whole titan went to the West.

They began to make aircraft wings from titanium, the Excalibur shells for the M777 cannon, which is used against us today, are made from our titanium. If titanium stops deliveries now, then all this will stop. This is worse than gas, because the construction of the latest combat aircraft depends on titanium, among other things.

Therefore, our oligarchy, the Ukrainian oligarchy and the West are objectively interested in ensuring that this railway communication runs smoothly,” Sivkov said.

The main (90%) volume of Western military and material assistance to the Kyiv regime, which lost over 70% of the weapons available on February 24, comes by rail from western Ukraine (Lviv), bordering Poland and Slovakia.

Vulnerabilities – three bridge crossings within the range of tactical missiles and airborne forces, which can be destroyed by three pinpoint strikes at known coordinates. In this case, communications that support the viability and military stability of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the regime as a whole will be destroyed with the prospect of restoration at least a month or two.

Alternative trucking by road does not compensate for the logistical disaster. However, this does not happen, just as many enterprises of the basic economic and defense structure controlled by Kyiv avoid missile and bomb raids.

Export goods and products manufactured at the enterprises of Ukrainian oligarchs and their Russian partners are also exported along the mentioned railway routes in the opposite direction, to the west. After all, after the blockade of air communications, maritime transport and international motor transport, the railway, which was removed from the limits of Western sanctions, remained the only logistical export-import communicator.

Rear Admiral John Kirby, a spokesman for the Pentagon, said that, contrary to the logic of hostilities, US intelligence did not record a single attempt by the Russian Armed Forces and the LDNR by any means to block the flow of American and European weapons coming to the disposal of the front-line units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine from late February to mid-April.

Probably, this explains the “indistinct” position of the majority of the Russian oligarchy and many of the most influential figures in the Russian Forbes list in relation to the US and EU hybrid aggression against Russia, including its most sensitive component – the fighting in Ukraine, and this also explains the strange course of the special operation.

The country must know its “heroes”…”

Posted by: Bob Jenkins | Nov 17 2022 17:15 utc | 37

Two comments caught my eye. No 21. It seems to me that the greatest PsyOps in history was the whole covid racket. The SMO doesn’t come close to it in the direct personal abuse that was inflicted on the man in the street. Of course, when we are all dying of hunger in the cold and the dark I might have to revisit that calculation. Then there is No 24. Why are all the trains running? The New Atlas has a theory there. Essentially to use up NATO resources and demilitarise them. I can’t say I’m fully persuaded but it is plausible.

Posted by: Guy L’Estrange | Nov 17 2022 16:51 utc | 29

Yes, I don't think it hurts, but it's not why the trains still run.

I've seen it argued that the Russian Government wants to continue and widen the split with Europe, I can't say, but I'm sure there are at least Russians who think that way.

I think it hasn't been done because to do would cause a humanitarian crisis of large proportion and that would be bad PR, and PR is a big part of what the SMO is for. As noted it would result in large population movements, empty shelves, etc. Not supposed to harm civilians, and that would be a bit too much.

Yes, I know, the US military would do it with enthusiasm. I don't think the Russians roll that way. Winter on the steppes is nothing to play with.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 17 2022 17:17 utc | 38

I should also point out that the original article I posted above (@35) was originally from Russell 'Texas' Bentley's telegram.

https://t.me/vdv_union

Posted by: Bob Jenkins | Nov 17 2022 17:18 utc | 39

"It seems to me that the greatest PsyOps in history was the whole covid racket."
Guy L’Estrange | Nov 17 2022 16:51 utc | 29

I get very tired of short-sighted people making silly claims because of how the collective West mishandled the pandemic. Tell Cubans or Chinese that Covid was a hoax, or lots of others around the world.

What happened in the US was unconscionable and criminally incompetent. The neoliberal system of management itself holds the blame as US medical equipment and facilities were insufficient to the task. Add that to a complete lack of well known epidemiological principles and cruel enforcement of lockdowns. These all led to a rejection of bad leadership with a poorly researched and developed 'magic bullet' vaccine being the main strategy. China and Cuba showed the world how to behave, but Western leadership did not listen, as usual.
No, Covid was no hoax, but the US government and its neoliberal handlers and ideologues is.

Posted by: Tedder | Nov 17 2022 17:18 utc | 40

@ Bob Jenkins | Nov 17 2022 17:15 utc | 35

excellent info and angle - and i hadn't seen it before.. thanks..

Posted by: james | Nov 17 2022 17:20 utc | 41

I appear to have been accused of being a Russian troll (not paid alas) for posting today the same thoughts that the FT reported in the comments section of the Daily Telegraph in the UK. Well looks like I am in good company?

But looking at the wider comments on that article I sensed a change in narrative. Most are not real people I think (some are) but Brigade 77 operatives or similar. There was a definite change and an attitude of disbelief of the DT reporting and slant. I just wonder whether this precedes a genuine change in policy (for the UK at least) or I am just imagining things? But as a scarred veteran of the DT comments board, this was definitely not usual.

Posted by: marcjf | Nov 17 2022 17:21 utc | 42

Terror, genocide unleashed against Russian speakers in Kherson — Civic Chamber

Ukraine’s troops have unleashed "overt terror and genocide" against those who speak Russian in Kherson, a member of Russia’s Civic Chamber, freelance adviser to the acting governor of the Kherson region, Alexander Malkevich told TASS on Thursday.

https://tass.com/society/1538447

Why are Russia never keeping any sabotage units behind enemy lines taking care of these terrorists? Always, ALWAYS, 1 step behind.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 17 2022 17:21 utc | 43

Posted by: Tedder | Nov 17 2022 17:18 utc | 38

"I get very tired of short-sighted people"
Maybe Guy L’Estrange is just smarter than you?

"people making silly claims because"
Without proof that Guy L'Estrange being wrong you call his claim silly... that tells a lot about you.

Posted by: SwissGuy | Nov 17 2022 17:23 utc | 44

Boomheist @ 18

You are right on the money in that post. Pipes don't need to freeze, pretty simple to drain them when time comes. Many will just not be on top of that. Enough decades of good plumbing and everyone forgets. There will be plenty of frozen pipes.

I'm guessing there will be a noticeable amount of freezing people in western Europe as well. Even if all are lucky and there is basically enough to get by there will be end of supply chain shortages locally. Here in US the diesel shortage is talked about, if you read MSM or watch toob it is a not happening, not serious. What is happening in many localities is the truck stop runs out and the trucks park 4 hours or 48 hours waiting for the tanker truck. Since this is absolutely verboten to discuss out loud we have no idea how bad it is or what prognosis is. Of course with no prognosis openly discussed it becomes hard to even make plans for basic distribution. Trucker who is 12 hours off schedule is pissed off. Old people and babies who shiver in a frosty flat even a night or two, that is a real problem. Facing the prospect of more and more cold will be disheartening. Nothing will be done. Nothing will get done.

One thing that will happen is the able bodied will become super valuable. For basics like carrying water. The effete and obese will face major attitude adjustment. Immigrant populations who remember what work is will be favored. I think that will not include Ukrainian immigrants in Europe.

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 17 2022 17:25 utc | 45

-------, We've got your Back!, proclaims Empire.

Substitute with:

Ukraine 2022
ISIS 2011+
Syrian YPG/PKK 2019
Afghan Proxy Army 2022
Georgia 2008
Iraqi Southern Shia uprising against Saddam Hussein - start of ceasefire negotiations 1991
Sth Vietnamese ARVN '73-'75

Ooh-ooh.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 17 2022 17:25 utc | 46

James (27): Yes, the Dutch were waiting for two years to reveal the results of their MH-17 show trial, but if you read Helmer's 2020 book--"The Lie That Shot Down MH-17"--the outcome was a foregone conclusion. Helmer actually doubts whether the Buk missile from whatever source brought down MH-17 but rather points more to the Ukrainian fighter suspiciously flying within range of MH-17. The most interesting thing about the book was its discussion of the proposed post-shoot-down intervention of almost 10K Dutch and Aussie troops to help defeat the Donetsk and Luhansk republics--which was cancelled at the last-minute. In the end, the Dutch verdict is merely one more futile NATO psyop, totally mismatched against Russia's vastly superior missile and artillery technology.

Posted by: FHTEX | Nov 17 2022 17:27 utc | 47

"We can hope that the media will now be more careful when they report of all the other lies Zelensky and his team are uttering on a daily base." Oh, oh, don't count on that b. The FT report is just one-off. Just like the CBS documentary on Ukraine weapons going missing. It's not going to last.

Posted by: Steve | Nov 17 2022 17:28 utc | 48

Bemildred | Nov 17 2022 17:17 utc | 36

For any Americans on this board, it is equivalent to winter in Nebraska. Very cold, intermittent snow and ice, no hills or mountains to break up the cold fronts. I would imagine the refugee crisis has already commenced and is just not being reported.

Posted by: Tangerine | Nov 17 2022 17:28 utc | 49

“Zelensky's lies about the Ukrainian missile strike in Poland have damaged his credibility.”
Sorry b but nobody on either side ever believed Zelensky has any credibility except playing piano with his dick. This actually is about NATO’s credibility being lost and Zelensky being the fall guy and be blamed for the western citizen that have paid the price and foot the bill till now. You usualy wouldn’t miss mentioning that

Posted by: Kooshy | Nov 17 2022 17:30 utc | 50

@ FHTEX | Nov 17 2022 17:27 utc | 45

i recall helmer doing a lot of coverage on this topic, but i haven't read his book.. thanks for sharing that.. i just shared on the open thread a post which i will share here with you -

"In December 2021, the Dutch prosecutor's office issued an indictment, demanding that all four defendants be sentenced to life imprisonment "for the destruction of an aircraft as part of an organized group, which led to the death of 298 people, and the murder of passengers on board."

Ukraine refused to provide data from its radars, and the United States did not provide the investigation with satellite images, which, as they claim, show the moment of the rocket launch. The line of state prosecution is based on the testimony of exclusively anonymous witnesses. We do not expect anything "good" from the Dutch court. To objectively investigate a plane crash is not for you to do cheese."

off same channel.. last paragraph is especially relevant and will not be broadcast in the western msm.. ukraine had a veto on everything that was released.. what kind of investigation gives one of the suspects a veto over what is released? this i learned from the book i was discussing yesterday - flight mh 17, ukraine and the new cold war by kees van der pijl..

Posted by: james | Nov 17 2022 17:31 utc | 51

It’s amazing the hatred this Zanon guy has for Russia. Everyday he’s on here saying “Russia is always one step behind because of this or that.” I hope he’s getting paid at least.

Posted by: James C | Nov 17 2022 17:39 utc | 52

Where are pictures of the "missiles"?

It STILL looks to me like something exploded below the grain wagon while it was unloading.

How does a missile fall below the wagon and result in that kind of crater?

It was grain dust. Look at the corn scattered all over the place

There was no missile. The photo's I've seen of missile parts are meaningless because they aren't included in the photo of the crater.


How does such a small warhead blow up a crater this deep?

Posted by: Fiji Refugee | Nov 17 2022 17:43 utc | 53

I know it's only too easy to get caught up in every event of the current crisis, but I am tempted to say that this could be a turning point in the war. This is the first time that the "leaders" and media in the west has gone against Zelensky in public.

It is pretty obvious that the Kiev regime has been desperate since the beginning, but the latest incident in Poland shows that they have reached new heights of desperation. What we are seeing is the failure of a false flag operation committed by the Kiev regime, which has backfired terribly and blown up in Zelensky's face.

The only reason the Kiev regime would attempt such an obvious false flag is if they have realized that there is no hope of victory without direct NATO "intervention". Well, the "leaders" in NATO are contradicting Zelensky and seem to be reluctant to activate Article 5. There is no American cavalry coming to save Zelensky now!

Posted by: DeathToAmerica | Nov 17 2022 17:44 utc | 54

It's going to be a time of severe and difficult attitude adjustment in the West...

Posted by: Boomheist | Nov 17 2022 16:10 utc | 18

Here's hoping for a return to realpolitik.
But given that the political landscape is populated with ambitious incompetents.
It's a very big ask.
Name one vaguely competent political operator in Europe bar Orban.
Meloni isn't at the job long enough to assess.

Posted by: jpc | Nov 17 2022 17:49 utc | 55

Ukraine is fascist. It is not formally fascist in the sense that openly fascist political parties hold the majority of seats in the Verkhovna Rada nor is the president an avowed fascist. It is fascist because fascist political/military formations are incorporated into the armed forces and police of the Ukrainian state; because legal restriction, force, intimidation and violence promote the fundamentals of fascist ideology in Ukraine, especially the foundational myth of the Holodomor; because all working-class and socialist/communist political parties and trade unions are forbidden. (It is likely that the bourgeois media are already covering up incidents of anti-Semitic violence, especially against any groups not affiliated with Chabad, so closely associated with Ihor Kolomoyskiy, a major funder of fascist groups. I could be wrong of course but unfortunately there's no way to track fascist violence in Ukraine and won't be for an indefinite period, and it seems to me far more probable the fascists are not so disciplined they are restricting their fun to ethnic Russians/Russian-speakers. This is also true of gypsies, gays, militant feminists, likely other ethnic groups like Rusyns, Hungarians, etc., but very few people care about them, or even approve of patriotic repressions of evil ideas from libertine West.)

As a fascist country, Ukraine necessarily has difficulties in its relationships with bourgeois democracies. Both bourgeois democracies and fascist states are dedicated to imperialism, so there is an inevitable rivalry. Ukraine is not a friend to Poland. It considers lands cleansed of Poles to be Ukrainian territory and the massacre of Poles to be "Glory to Ukraine." For its part, Poland, which has a powerful fascist trend of the ostentatiously Roman Catholic/less modernist flavor---more like Franco's or Salazar's or Tiso's variants of fascism---is increasingly discovering its appetites for Galicia, Kaliningrad, perhaps Vilnius and surrounds in Lithuania (if not all Lithuania, in a revival of the Jagiellonian realm,) and western Belarus. But there is also a disharmony in the fundamentals of how politics works. The fascists are not keen on a Jew in official power, for one. Zelensky's real powers are far below those officially held because the core of the state (or the cutting edge, perhaps?) the security forces are not in his control. But the ones remaining are still an obstacle to the dreams of the fascists, especially those who see themselves as the fuehrer instead of a comic actor. As a representative of foreign ideology, still supported by outside forces, Zelensky et al. still hamper the full gleichschaltung of fascist program, policy, personnel.

The thing is, that although Ukraine and Zelensky in particular are sensibly called puppets, everyone who forgets this term is a metaphor, that these are still people, not actual unliving things that couldn't dream of cutting the strings, much less doing that, will mislead themselves. Thus, the suggestion (found in WSWS for one) that the Ukrainians deliberately fired a missile at Poland is not nutty conspiracy mongering. The US/NATO/EU are still capable of pretending there is a "controversy" about the origin, then when convenient suddenly talking about how the errant Ukrainian air defense missile was at some vague point in time "debunked" by somebody or other in some report that is rarely read, but often cited. But at this point, a one missile Ukrainian assault, like the murder of Dugina, is a weak actor's attempt to spread the conflict at their convenience, not their rivals/ideological opponents.

Those who favor fascism and/or deem the liberal woke values of the wicked West maybe will tend to favor absurd explanations like a deep scheme to pretend there's a conflict between Ukraine, all the better to, well, something not quite clear, but presumably nefarious betrayal is both inevitable and unexpected.
Likely there will be another favorite explanation, that Zelensky is merely desperate because, victory is at hand! The problem there is that bombing Poland cannot be expected to get NATO's favorable attention *unless it is done with NATO's approval, by some powerful faction therein at least.* The possibility that it really was an accident and Zelensky is simply stupid is not impossible...but Hanlon's razor I think is much duller than people imagine. It's much easier to pretend to be stupid than to confess.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 17 2022 17:58 utc | 56

Mr Pakula = Mr Bean.

Posted by: Giyane | Nov 17 2022 18:00 utc | 57

Scott Ritter today --

"NATO’s hair trigger: The Polish missile incident was a close brush with nuclear annihilation
The fervor with which Poland and others sought to drag NATO into a war with Russia should ring alarm bells for everyone."

Given time enough, even only a little might do considering the plethora of determined and recklessly powerful scoundrels trying to light a NATO- WW3 fuse, a triggering "event" will happen.

Removing Ze and his cadre of N-Ns is an essential move that will allow both (real) sides a way to peace.

Posted by: Elmagnostic | Nov 17 2022 18:01 utc | 58

In a climate with cold winters, loosing power for extended times causes enormous property damage. While outdoor sprinkler lines are air filled or protected somehow, interior lines are often full of water. If they freeze, the pipes burst.

If water is still being pumped, then movement in the lines will keep it from freezing. If the water stops - e.g. the central water plants aren't pumping, then service entrances will freeze and valves will be broken. I assume most old pipes are copper - not modern PEX.

High rise buildings without pumped water are ugly. Are you going to walk chamber pots / buckets up and down the stairs or just throw the mess out a window? Are you going to harvest yellow snow from the streets and boil it? Can you light a fire in an apartment building? Can you get propane at all? Presumably you are also unemployed and your money is almost worthless.

In the 1950s, there were many places in rural north America that were still using community diesel generators, outhouses, kerosene lamps, chamber pots at night, wood stoves for cooking, gravity fed wells. They also bought the winter vegetables in the Fall and stored them in a cool area. Most of that generation, a generation that lived through the great depression, is gone now - and I think the younger crowed will just mass migrate, especially those in big cities. Modern youth is lost without a cell phone and internet access. I can't imagine them crapping in pots and sliding it under the bed until morning.

Rural dwellers will adapt and support each other -- although even that will be difficult if all the able bodied men have been rounded up for cannon fodder. Dense cities will be an absolute nightmare without water, heat and electricity.

What a mess. I fully expect the migration of millions of desperate people.

I have been in hurricane disasters where we were told that every day, that power would be back soon. A week went by and we resented the lies -- deep freezes from food were wasted. If we told it was going to be at least a week, there could have been huge community BBQs. If we hand been told months or years without power and that we might be conscripted and/or have to battle street gangs -- we'd be hitting the road like the "walking dead" series.

I think that once people realize that electricity will be gone for months or even years in some area, they will set their sights on migration.

Posted by: PP | Nov 17 2022 18:07 utc | 59

Just wanted to throw this out there: In North America, there has been a continuous shortage of electrical equipment like circuit breakers and panels. You can literally wait a year to get a small electrical panel, and some brands of breakers (like Siemens) can be missing for months.

Even when times were good, major switch gear and autotransformers had long lead times because it was custom made. Now it is ridiculous. The lead time on a Cisco router can be a year. An IP phone like Poly might take 8 months.

Russia has now reluctantly destroyed switch gear and transformers. Ukraine doesn't have replacements, and there is no way Europe does either.

You don't just drop in replacement switch gear. You have to do coordination studies to size all the components correctly and ensure that the protection circuits work. This requires engineering services. Then it has to be manufactured, and paid for. Then you've got to find crews to install and commission it.

Loosing your national power infrastructure is a disaster in today's world. Everything needs electricity.


Posted by: PP | Nov 17 2022 18:21 utc | 60

FYI, per Pepe Escobar, Blackstone and Vanguard have already bought up millions of acres of Ukrainian land, and Zelensky has spoken of creating a 2nd Israel. They want as many Slavs as possible to be killed off before they (in their own minds) take over the area.

Posted by: Greg | Nov 17 2022 18:23 utc | 61

The English state propaganda media machine the BBC now going with dead bodies and tortured civilians in Kherson story, all eventually killed by the RF before they departed.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Nov 17 2022 18:27 utc | 62


One must ask if Russia care at all that Ukraine attack them and kill civilians because this is not incompetence but ignorance by now:

Today, the Armed Forces of Ukraine fired from the hail in Shebekino ... no, not a substation, not a power plant, and not even an ammunition depot - but a residential sector. Several houses were destroyed. An 11-year-old girl was seriously injured.

https://t.me/intelslava/41287

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 17 2022 18:28 utc | 63

@53 - I agree. I was disappointed when Meloni told Berusconi shut up about Russia's SMO. I have read some promising things about Aleksandar Vučić in Serbia as well.
Rob Roos in Holland seems good, too. I don't know how much power he has there. though.

Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 17 2022 18:31 utc | 64

Yes, it looks like we are at a turning point. It is now clear that Russia cannot afford to lose and will not lose. But can Russia win decisively? Russia needs the West to balance China, no other region can play that role. If the West is de-fanged, China will have a very strong position vis a vis Russia. It's much the same situation of vulnerability Russia is fighting to avoid in Ukraine, only in the East. So an arrangement must be made with the West, or China inherits the world by default.

Posted by: Biochar | Nov 17 2022 18:33 utc | 65

re: Melaleuca | Nov 17 2022 6:38 utc | 340

you posted this:
Zelensky. Has absolutely jumped the shark.
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1592685865184395264

I reposted the link on another forum and was immediately informed by true believers that "that is not Zelensky"

If you don't mind, can you direct me to the source? Is the video posted on Ukrainian sites?

thanks

Posted by: Perimetr | Nov 17 2022 18:33 utc | 66

Tell Cubans or Chinese that Covid was a hoax, or lots of others around the world.

No, Covid was no hoax, but the US government and its neoliberal handlers and ideologues is.

Posted by: Tedder | Nov 17 2022 17:18 utc | 38

He did not say "hoax" he said "racket". Both Canada and the EU ordered over 10 doses of inoculation (by now clearly not a vaccine) per person. Any rational person would conclude that corruption was involved in that decision.

If you wish to bring up Cuba and China, please reflect on Central Africa, which essentially did nothing and had the same result in terms of infection and death rates.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Nov 17 2022 18:34 utc | 67

The New Atlas has a theory there. Essentially to use up NATO resources and demilitarise them.

guy, #29. Brian Berletic's De-militarization of #Ukraine Continues - US Sending Decades-Old Arms to Kiev podcast from the other day was really good.

Posted by: annie | Nov 17 2022 18:38 utc | 68

One simple question born out of simple common sense: is it imagineable that Russia would start a war on Poland launching outdated air defense missiles instead of all their Kalibers, Iskanders, etc.?

Posted by: Hotzenplotz | Nov 17 2022 18:40 utc | 69

We can hope that the media will now be more careful when they report of all the other lies Zelensky and his team are uttering on a daily base.

The media know well that Zelensky, Ukrainian officials, Western officials and all the circus lie non-stop. Their problem is that the public could stop believing their fake news, if the circus lies too big.

Posted by: SG | Nov 17 2022 18:40 utc | 70

Biden just signed another $37.7 billion in funds "for Ukraine". Total Ukraine related spending is about $100 billion. It is fair to assume there is also a black budget of similar size. The NATO war in Ukraine will continue as long as the US is able and willing to spend that kind of money.

In 1956, the British withdrew from Egypt because the US informed the British that the US would pull the rug out from under the British Pound if the UK did not behave. Todays' equivalent would be China and other creditor nations informing the US they will no longer accept dollars in trade, unless the US behaves.


Posted by: Passerby | Nov 17 2022 18:57 utc | 71

lex talionis | Nov 17 2022 18:31 utc | 64

Both Vučić and Roos are constrained by the realities of geopolitics. i would not vest too much hope in them.

Posted by: Cynthia | Nov 17 2022 19:05 utc | 72

A very interesting interview with Kent Ryan "Boneface" McLellan, American neo-Nazi from the Azov Battalion:

https://telegra.ph/INTERVIEW-WITH-BONEFACE---US-NEO-NAZI-EX-MEMBER-OF-AZOV-BATTALION-11-12

Some excerpts:

There is a ton of liberal white washing when it comes to Fascists in Ukraine: 

"Nazis don't exist' "Azov battalion and Azov regiment are different “ , "They took all the Nazis out of Azov”.

We know all these to be false, and to a guy who knew and been there; I see it has pure disrespect to tarnish the legacy of a lot of those who died.

Clearly they don't know what to think of it. I speak out against the white washing of Nationalists by the media. Despite the fact they blasted us for years and even the Ukrainians tried to force fully uproot Azov at one point.

I use Twitter to mainly troll the (western) left, as they believe Ukraine military isn't full of nationalist ideals.

I dedicate this to our full-time trolls:

American meddling in Ukraine has caused the Russian invasion.

(...) I would like to see Russia just go home, and while the government in Kiev is frail another (Maidan) revolution. 

I don't see Russia as the victim here. But I do see Russia as provoked.

Posted by: Leuk | Nov 17 2022 19:11 utc | 73

Outspent 11 to 1, Karen Bass Still Defeated a Billionaire to Become LA’s Mayor

Even the corp whores couldn't pull this one off.

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Nov 17 2022 19:17 utc | 74

@fiji refugee #53

There is pictures of other destruction on a couple different youtube vids, It could just be random stock footage but there was a lot of large chunks of reinforced concrete.
Zelensky seems determined to go there and see for himself. Perhaps his smuggling ring was destroyed.
The US and Russia being on the same page and pals for a few minutes raises flags. The US having the info to clear Russia is as strange as it gets.
It might have been western air defense and they don't want people to know they are junk.
The CIA might have given the Russians a list of targets because Zelensky is off script
Or Nato is messing with Ukraine because they need to remind Zelensky who's in charge.
The Russians might have done it just to show the west they will escalate.

Too bad we will never know. Something is fishy with the way the US decided to handle things.

Posted by: OohCanada | Nov 17 2022 19:22 utc | 75

Maybe Putin will try to keep this war going for a few years for as long as it keeps the US entangled in a quagmire and distracted from fully focussing on China! How long will it take the Chinese military to build up its strength to the point that the US will no longer consider it even possible to fight China with any prospect of success? China needs more time to close the shrinking window of opportunity presently available to the US to fight China. Putin can help Xi buy the time needed to end the hegemon once and for all by facilitating the time needed to build up the Chinese military to the point of being able to present Washington, along with Russia, with a fait accompli by keeping the US entangled in Ukraine.

Posted by: John G | Nov 17 2022 19:25 utc | 76

Many commenters here are definitely on the spectrum. High intelligence combined with a tendency to fixate on certain narrow aspects.

But, never fear, as I am here to occasionally help shift focus back to the big picture. Ok, let's review:

- Russia won when the government failed to collapse. It never lost public support, therefore it continued to be able to maintain soveirgn authority and unified protection over territorial integrity.

I'm not sure how close they even came, or whether it was ever even an issue. Regardless, once the Russian people became resigned to their fate that it was their generation once more being called to face the west, it was all over.

Zato of course always understood this. If fully mobilized, a multi million person army conducting a land war in their own backyard motivated by existentional survival? Yeah right, good luck with that.

Which leads to point two, that with a large army sitting on Polands border, russia can completely secure Ukraine as a vassal ally (think US - German or Japan relationship).

That means that beyond just political leaders, the entire legal framework can include their own mutual aid (defense) agreements that would treat any Ukraine encroachment as an attack on the entire alliance.

All of this of course is just the beginning to really putting the resource screws to the west, with the primary target being the $US dollar standard itself.

Anyway, if you keep the big picture in mind, the tactical details fall right into place.

Posted by: B9k9 | Nov 17 2022 19:26 utc | 77

Opport Knocks@67
Yes, government and the Capitalist class exploited covid for their own purposes. In that sense, like everything that capitalism does, it was a racket.
There is nothing surprising about that. It is the way that the ruling class and its state agents work.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 17 2022 19:27 utc | 78

Biochar@65

You are assuming that 'multipolarity' is not China's objective but a disguise on its own aim to establish its own unipolarity.
Obviously you believe that it is within the nature of states to wish for hegemony. But of this there is no evidence. And in China's long history there is a mountain of evidence to suggest otherwise.
Russia has no fear of China, they have mutual interests. It would be suicidal for either to attack or attempt to subvert the other.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 17 2022 19:32 utc | 79

Posted by: PP | Nov 17 2022 18:07 utc | 59
I assume most old pipes are copper - not modern PEX.

In older Soviet buildings, most pipes are iron, copper is too expensive. In renovations PEX is used.

Posted by: Peter Williams | Nov 17 2022 19:39 utc | 80

OohCanada | Nov 17 2022 19:22 utc | 75

you are overthinking things. a house has many mansions and no one knows who struck john, but the russians do not concern themselves with the games of the west. That is why they do not answer the phone.

Posted by: Cynthia | Nov 17 2022 19:40 utc | 81

Germany has really gone nuts during this conflict, like nazi's warmongering and russian hatred has become popular again.

Germany makes military offer to Ukraine’s neighbor

Germany has suggested sending combat jets on patrol missions to Poland as an “immediate response” to an incident in which two people were killed in a missile blast in a village not far from the border with Ukraine. The projectile allegedly belonged to Kiev’s forces.

https://swentr.site/news/566726-germany-poland-fighter-jets-patrol/

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 17 2022 19:49 utc | 82

"Ukrainian security forces [силовики] have executed in Kherson 39 pro-russian activists
and sent away 74” From RIA-Novosti.
https://ria.ru/20221117/kherson-1832257221.html .

[I copied a picture of The Scream, only commentary adequate, but it wouldn't paste here.]


Posted by: Seward | Nov 17 2022 19:57 utc | 83

OohCanada | Nov 17 2022 19:22 utc | 75

US and Russia reached some form of agreement and US has told Zed to start peace negotiations with Russia. Nazi's are not happy about that and I doubt Poland is either. Nazi's fire a missile into Poland as a call for help. US wasn't interested. Poland was saying Russian attack until Biden said it was a Ukraine missile so the Poland said it was a Ukraine missile. Nazi's are a bit desperate as for some time Zed kept trying to insist it was Russian. I guess the comedian is in a bit of a tight spot. If he negotiates an end to the war the nazi's will kill him and if he doesn't negotiate, US will leave him swinging in the breeze.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 17 2022 19:58 utc | 84

Here's a random thought: maybe it really was a Russian missile, but the western elites just aren't ready for that level of escalation (yet) so they lied about it. That would surely drive Zelensky crazy, yes?
Posted by: TG | Nov 17 2022 15:53 utc | 8

I got to say that if you were a troll, you are a damn good one. But I think not. I had, and I think everyone commenting on MoA probably had the same thought. If it were true (and I do not think it is) than it would say a lot about what Biden and the State Department are up too. There are a lot of rumors that the US and the EU are running out of arms and funds to give to Ukraine while the world economy is going into recession. The Russian winter offensive will happen very soon, and Zelensky is sitting on the pot with no paper to wipe his ass. His lies (real or otherwise) would be a good excuse to throw him under the bus.

As it stands, the S-300 anti-missile rockets are old and unreliable. And that is probably the end of the story.

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Nov 17 2022 20:11 utc | 85

Peter AU (83): The U.S. retreated when the published photographic evidence clearly showed the Polish damage was from an S300 battery; NATO in that case couldn't pull the trigger (if it even has a gun left). As for the negotiations, the U.S. wanted the negotiations and Russia met and nothing contradicts that it responded with a polite "nyet". Russia is on the verge of an historic victory over its arch-nemesis NATO--why would it settle for anything other than unconditional surrender of all Ukrainian forces, the elimination of the Azov movement, and the abolition of NATO?

Posted by: FHTEX | Nov 17 2022 20:24 utc | 86

"We can hope that the media will now be more careful when they report of all the other lies Zelensky and his team are uttering on a daily base."

No chance.

I can only quote what my nephew said to me once: "You're Funny".

Posted by: ltexpat | Nov 17 2022 20:28 utc | 87

@B

Would be veryinterested to read your assessment of Dutch court determination w/re MH17.

Posted by: jared | Nov 17 2022 20:32 utc | 88

Bemildred | Nov 17 2022 17:17 utc | 36

For any Americans on this board, it is equivalent to winter in Nebraska. Very cold, intermittent snow and ice, no hills or mountains to break up the cold fronts. I would imagine the refugee crisis has already commenced and is just not being reported.

Posted by: Tangerine | Nov 17 2022 17:28 utc | 49

Yep, my brother (dairyman) used to live in Iowa, he told some stories.

And I have some experience of my own, the "lake effect" in upstate NY.

Agree with your conclusion, it is already happening, and we are in the early stages, and as I was saying, they have not really pulled the plug yet, and things could still be done. Shutting down the trains would be pulling the plug.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 17 2022 20:36 utc | 89


Germany has suggested sending combat jets on patrol missions to Poland as an “immediate response” to an incident in which two people were killed in a missile blast in a village not far from the border with Ukraine. The projectile allegedly belonged to Kiev’s forces.

OMG! Ukrainian AD missiles are pretty reliable in going astray, but they are even more reliable in acquiring wrong targets. In 2001, they shot down a Russian civil plane over Black Sea, killing all ~80 aboard. Since the February, they shot down one Romanian plane and one Romanian helicopter, if I remember correctly. Flying combat jets in Poland near Ukrainian border, when Ukrainian AD is active? It is an invitation.

Posted by: velizhan | Nov 17 2022 20:49 utc | 90

Some thoughts:
Z erratic behavior:
It appears he is responding to several masters, the CIA, the State Dept, the DoD, all giving him instructions, some contradicting others? And of course the Azov will kill him if he steps out of line.
Polish FF:
I too think it was a grain explosion as others have noted, not any sort of missile from anyone. Grain explosions can be pretty horrific and the photos support that. As it was not a sanctioned FF, the West is not willing to buy into it. If it was theirs they would have had dead and dying children, a dead pregnant woman, ideally blonde photos ready to go. No photos, not a sanctioned FF.
Russia's Plan:
I think at this point it is to drain the NATO resources as dry as possible, to launch a takeover of all of Ukraine, schedule and run elections, new constitution, etc. Keeping Ukraine as a protectorate. No other solution is possible at this point. No deal can be trusted, no Western word has any value so take over it is.
Ukraine land deals:
Z changed the Ukraine constitution to allow Ukraine land to be sold to foreigners. Monsanto and other GMOs are already there, it was their grain that was shipped out, maybe some grain was Ukraine owned, but primarily it was theirs. My guess is Russia will void all of those land deals and ideally restore the organic nature of the lands they trashed. Revenge!
Currency wars:
This war will run for at least a year or two more, for Russia needs the euro to collapse, as many of the govts of the EU as possible to collapse and new leadership that is somewhat sane to rise. If Italy decides to leave the EU and it may, give it time, the rest of the EU will shatter IMO. As for the dollar, I see it reduced to one of many, and if the Biden admin goes with the virtual currency strategy, the dollar will disappear.
Summary:
I see no good news for the people of the West for years, and for the sun to shine on the East for the foreseeable future.

Posted by: Bonami | Nov 17 2022 20:53 utc | 91

Zelensky has been pushing for a direct conflict between Russia and NATO from the start while the Polish and Estonian bigots are anxiously wanting to be glassed in a world war. I am so sick of the modern world, it's politics, it's irrationalism, and it's hypocrisy.

Posted by: Prometheus Defiant | Nov 17 2022 20:56 utc | 92

@ OohCanada 75

I have been looking all over for photos or videos

Yes, I've seen the concrete supposedly spread all over the place. There's nothing to convince me that it is anywhere close to the crater, but it hardly matters. The concrete wall on the close side of the crater would be what is spread all over. How in the world did the missile fly into that teeny-tiny hole get past the huge timbers and the steel girders and blow up underneath the grain wagon?

There are 2 different sized warheads on the S-300. ~350lbs of explosive or ~50lbs of explosive. Neither one of those could create a crater deep enough to match the photos I've seen.

Maybe the ~350lb warhead if the missile skipped across the ground and landed inside the grain chute. LOL

A grain dust explosion can rip out concrete.

I'm not an explosive expert, but I've seen craters created by 500lb bombs. They don't look at all like this.

In any case, an S300 isn't built to penetrate the ground.

There are dozens of grain explosions on youTube. Here's a video explaining how dangerous this dust can be.

There is a photo that purports to show S-300 parts lying on the ground next to the crater, but the ground they are lying on doesn't look at all like the grassless dirt surrounding the crater.


Posted by: Fiji Refugee | Nov 17 2022 21:00 utc | 93

Clearly this Polish missile issue is significant, but finding out just why and what it means is the challenge.

Now it seems to me there have been a number of significant events recently and certainly a turning point (or a few). The question is, is it a series of oscillations or something more decisive.

My feeling is that Russia initially was trying to do minimal damage to Ukraine, still hoping against hope that there could be a peaceful settlement, with trade returned to normal, NATO out of Ukraine and Russia securing Crimea and setting up some peaceful neutral barrier statelets and a reasonably friendly Ukraine.

The attack on Nordstream changed all this and Russia decided to annex the four provinces properly. I suspect that even after the referana, Russia was reluctant to destroy Ukraine. After all no country wants a miserable mess on its borders, because it is destabilising for your own country. Think the USA. Surely any sane person will realise that having poor, dysfunction states in the South, as centres of drug smuggling, crime of all kinds and millions of refugees. If the USA, instead of supporting fascist dictators in Central and South America, and encouraging exploitation of the poor, the flood of refugees into the USA and the strain on its infrastructure and resources would have been reduced. Would drugs be such a problem in the US if South America were prosperous.

However the final straw was the attack on the Crimean bridge. Russian strategy has totally changed, and they are going to destroy Ukrainian/NATO capacity to attack them. Significantly Russia has blamed the UK. I feel this is very significant, but I am not sure just why. In any case it seems to me that the final turning point for Russia was the bridge.

So while the bridge was Russia's turning point, what of the USA. This is less clear to me, but I feel that something has happened, just what I am not sure. Perhaps the demonstrated capacity of Russia to precision target all electricity in the Ukraine has brought home to the USA power brokers that Ukraine cannot survive. Perhaps it is something in Germany- the desperate Sholtz trip to China, suggests this as possible. The rapid removal of Lettuce Lizzy in the UK, just after the bridge affair also suggests something, though perhaps these issues are cumulative. Perhaps it is just awareness that NATO weapons stockpiles are running low and that to replace them they may need Russian titanium and Chinese chips. Perhaps it is partly timing, now the election is over, all parties in the USA can be more honest with each other.

However what is certainly clear this week is that there have been two significant events. The meeting of Burns and his Russian counterpart in Ankara and this Polish missile affair. Clearly there is now a split in the band, but it is not clear if it will lead to a break up. Whatever the cause or outcome, it is I think a US turning point. After all we know it was the USA which sought the meeting and we know that they got little joy from Russia, who destroyed a lot mere Ukrainian infrastructure the next day.

Posted by: watcher | Nov 17 2022 21:03 utc | 94

Perimetr | Nov 17 2022 18:33 utc | 66
Zelensky disco dancing.
Source is the twitter james posted. Embedded in the clip is cited another source.
Is it Ze?
He looks ridiculous. So his acolytes are going screech like banshees to say it’s not.
I think it is. There is some debate about the hairline. But for me the height is a tell. Zelensky is short in stature and the RPG he’s dancing with provides scale.
Ze, as we know, was/is an “entertainer”. He danced often on stage. This guy with the RPG has the same moves as a younger Ze.
Obviously I wasn’t there when it was filmed, so can’t 1000% assert its authenticity.
I think 80/20 it’s him. Or 90/10.
The other clip I posted is definitely him… he himself uploaded it. I actually think that it is more damning, as he is quite clearly intoxicated, probably from drugs rather than alcohol.
That the Ze at the disco clip is finding its way to twitter and telegram now is, I believe, part of the slow drip towards his demise.
He’s been so deified, he’s actually become a danger to his handlers… clips like this plant seeds of doubt about him…. So he can be destroyed and sent to the scrap heap later.
And I’m fine with that.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 17 2022 21:03 utc | 95

Apparently or not?
Poland supplied s300's to Ukraine
Ukrainian operator pressed the home button.

Posted by: slippery | Nov 17 2022 21:04 utc | 96


“It seems to me that the greatest PsyOps in history was the whole covid racket."
Guy L’Estrange | Nov 17 2022 16:51 utc | 29

Tedder | Nov 17 2022 17:18 utc | 40
“I get very tired of short-sighted people making silly claims because of how the collective West mishandled the pandemic. Tell Cubans or Chinese that Covid was a hoax, or lots of others around the world.
What happened in the US was unconscionable and criminally incompetent. The neoliberal system of management itself holds the blame ...”


$ $ $ $ $


Since the US government is purchased by the donar class, ie effectively privatized, and operates within a system of privatized money creation, credit & banking (which seeds and grows privatized monopolies sold to the highest bidder), the failure of the neoliberal US west to contain and eliminate the gof viral pandemic at the outset when it was feasible, blocking it from evolving into successive variants that are always inevitably a few evasive steps ahead of targeted treatments and vaccines (which are all privatized monopoly markets), means that this bad governance (from POV of the public), the neoliberal governance, has been a huge success! And if the treatments themselves cause harm, more success! $$$

GDP goes up even when people get sick, sometimes remain sick and die early because so-called health care is big business.

Government obligations to the publc goes down as the old and infirm die early. No further need for social security and healthcare coverage for those so-called useless-eater losers.

Pesky persnickety sticklers for evidence-based truths have been marginalized and silenced as a thousand attention-diverting myths and conspiracy theories have bloomed.

With little to no liability obligations, no observable accountability and no perceived responsibility, it is a monopolist’s dream world come temporarily true. $$$$.

Of course this is an example everyone everywhere in the world will want to follow especially if they have socialized medicine ! s/

Now, what exactly is the psy-op in this train of events?

Posted by: suzan | Nov 17 2022 21:05 utc | 97

I think it hasn't been done because to do would cause a humanitarian crisis of large proportion and that would be bad PR, and PR is a big part of what the SMO is for. As noted it would result in large population movements, empty shelves, etc. Not supposed to harm civilians, and that would be a bit too much.
Yes, I know, the US military would do it with enthusiasm. I don't think the Russians roll that way. Winter on the steppes is nothing to play with.
Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 17 2022 17:17 utc | 38

For eight months Russia has used a velvet glove against the Western Ukraine civilians and Western Ukraine's infrastructure. The entire world watched with amazement at how gentle Russia was carrying out the SMO.
I think those days are now over. The destruction of electrical power and water sources as winter moves in will have an effect on the pro-Kiev Ukraine population. By the end of winter, they will be looking for Zelensky with rope in hand.
Just got a message on Intel Slava Z that unknown people in the Odessa region blew up railway tracks. Traffic on the Berezovka-Raukhovka lines has been completely stopped.

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Nov 17 2022 21:09 utc | 98

Neofeudalfuture | Nov 17 2022 15:45 utc | 6
You’re a decade too late.
Ukraine’s best agricultural land and its industries were sold under Poroshenko.
Ukrainian chernozems have been bagged and sold since.
Not to say further exploitation won’t continue.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 17 2022 21:10 utc | 99

My apology. Wrong thread posting.

Posted by: suzan | Nov 17 2022 21:11 utc | 100

next page »

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Working...