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November 13, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-198

Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Posted by b on November 13, 2022 at 12:55 UTC | Permalink

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Given the leading role the Brits are playing in the ongoing war against Russia and the ensuing destruction of European industry, can't we say the UK is being America's bi*ch and thus wickedly deceiving her European brethren?

Posted by: R | Nov 13 2022 13:05 utc | 1

Posted by: R | Nov 13 2022 13:05 utc | 1

You might add that The Pope is Roman Catholic or that the earth is an oblate spheroid

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Nov 13 2022 13:08 utc | 2

Given the leading role the Brits are playing in the ongoing war against Russia and the ensuing destruction of European industry, can't we say the UK is being America's bi*ch and thus wickedly deceiving her European brethren?

R...the short answer to your question is yes...UK is working with America to dethrone the EU, but at what peril...

Listen to the Duran interview "Freeze this conflict or Escalate with Garland Nixon. see attached URL...
Eddie Crivello

Posted by: Eddie Crivello | Nov 13 2022 13:24 utc | 3

R...the afore mentioned UR:
Eddie Crivello

Posted by: Eddie Crivello | Nov 13 2022 13:26 utc | 4

If America can't have Ukraine, then no-one can have Ukraine. So Ukraine is now getting destroyed. Coming up next, if America can't have Europe, then no-one can have Europe, so Europe must be destroyed. Bye bye Europeans. The Ukrainians and Europeans are of course actively assisting in their own demise.

Posted by: gT | Nov 13 2022 13:44 utc | 5

Since he might miss it, Flying Dutchman writes:
"The evidence is that at least as late as late September they still regarded the land itself as the goal and their military presence as permanent, because if they viewed the land as expendable they never would have held the referendum and solemnly declared the region to be now and forever Russian soil."

Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Nov 13 2022 11:40 utc | 272

My Reply:

They likely moved up the referendums from Nov to Sept because they wanted to ensure that the Kherson oblast would become a part of the Russian Federation. The reason being they probably had decided by then that they were going to withdraw from the right side of the Dnieper.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Nov 13 2022 13:01 utc | 289

Added note: Probably, the Russians decided, or at least seriously discussed, in early Septemeber, at the latest, the need to perform a strategic retreat to the left side of the Dnieper, abandoning Kherson. The the proposal for the referendums on National Unity day, Nov. 4th, were dirched in favour of late September.

Possibly, something happened in early Septemeber that led to this decision. I do not know what that might have been.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Nov 13 2022 13:49 utc | 6

I offer two contrasting commentaries on Kherson and the overall impressions of the Russian war; how it started, how it went, we all know. How it will go... well, i let people draw their own conclusions. Considering Russia blew up the only 2 bridges connecting Kherson to the East... it doesn't give one much confidence they are planning to return in any hurry.

Posted by: Et Tu | Nov 13 2022 14:15 utc | 7

For all of those consumed with hand-wringing over the recent Russian moves in the Ukraine, keep some things in mind.

  1. The Ukraine is effectively defeated and demilitarized. Part of the original mission is accomplished. Russia is now fighting NATO, and that is a new mission for the Russian military.

  2. The new mission calls for a new boss. The new boss is now in charge and rearranging the forces to accomplish the new mission.

  3. The scope of the new mission is bigger so more forces are required. These new forces are currently being prepared for the new mission.

  4. The Ukropians are afraid of what is next, and so are the US military strategists who remote control the Nazi zombie horde. Proof? The troll flood we see right here in the comments. They are part of a desperate effort to demoralize the ignorant and try to prod the Russians into acting on NATO's time frame rather than the time of the Russians' choosing.

Putin said the fight hadn't even started yet. Keep that in mind and let the troll flood run its course. The trollery is just a desperate but futile effort by the empire to seize some sort of advantage, any sort, in the relative calm before the next storm. Where were the trolls when their much ballyhooed Kharkov offensive was being exterminated? As happened then the trolls will again retreat back to under the bridges where the reside once reality overruns their narratives again.

So relax, folks. Don't let the trolls get to you, and that goes double for RSH. Relax dude and don't take the trolling personally. If you stop participating because of the trolling then the trolls win.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 13 2022 14:15 utc | 8

Russia is objectively performing flawlessly on the battlefield. They have destroyed so much western stuff west has no means of replacing any time soon. Russia on the other hand is in full time military production, manufacturing everything they need basically. Survival mode, enemy at the gates who want to destroy them. Do you even understand this?

They have also trained a few hundred thousands of soldiers which are now battle-hardy if you know what that means, tested and perfected their military equipment on the battlefield... tuned their artillery teams to perfection etc. etc.

Strengthened their ties with their allies also.

If you think Russia is in a worse position than before February you are either a troll or have no clue what you are typing, how did you even find this blog to comment?

Posted by: Jzo | Nov 13 2022 14:17 utc | 9

Driving around this morning I caught Cross Talk on the radio, repeated from yesterday. When some speaker express mild trepidation about recent events in the Ukraine, Peter Lavelle interrupted him, as is his wont, to assure him that when the ground froze and 300,00 new soldiers appeared, Russia would regain everything it had lost, and more so besides. Let us hope so. Since the future’s not ours to see, however, Russian needs to prepare for a long war if it doesn’t work out as hoped. These seems to be a latency in America’s wars of 20 years, after which the rising generation has forgotten whatever got us into the war in the first place: Viet Nam 20 years after Dien Bien Phi, Afghanistan 20 years after 9/11 and Tora Bora, etc. In the meantime, the U.S. can print money, and thereby afford to continue the conflict indefinitley, until public opinion turns against it. (Ultimately, of course, for the benefit of the Military-Industrial Complex, as President Eisenhower warned us.)

A long war for Russia likely means a complete, vs. a partial. mobilization; plus the selection and appointment of war leaders willing to see it through. That likely means somebody other than Mr. Putin, after his term ends in 2024. He seems to have no stomach for the war (as opposed to a “special military operation”), hoping to prevail on the cheap. A good example is his decree that university students in the Donbas be exempt from military service: . Humaine, no doubt, and comparable to the exemption in Russia proper, but inconsistent with a long war.

The current war leaders, Gerasimov, et all, are likely too old; while Shoigu, though a good organizer, is really a fireman, not a military man at all, and meekly acquiesced to the withdrawal from Kherson. Aleksey Dyumin, who engineered the takeover of the Crimea, is sometimes mentioned: he’s a reserve Lt. General, and currently Governor of Tula Oblast. I’m sure Russian can determine its war leaders without outside advice. But IMHO it needs to find them if it hopes to prevail.

Posted by: Seward | Nov 13 2022 14:35 utc | 10

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 13 2022 14:15 utc | 12

Mr. Gruff, I have at times commented at MoA on your posts (almost always positively), which I generally treat as a very good contribution to the blog. I'm disappointed to see that you joined the chorus of those barflies who consider any form of criticism to the Russian leadership's performance as some sort of NAFO trolling. The bleak view which many long timers have (I include myself for attending the blog for years) is shared by numerous patriotic Russians and Russophile Ukrainians. Are they too trolls?

The conduct of the SMO led to a situation where an already insufficient Russian force was firther diminished by the contract terminations in late August. I would point out the obvious here, that a confident and determined military personnel might have been less willing to leave the battlefield. But that would require a steady, fairly consistently successful victorious campaign and a solid message emanating from the top. None of it was the case and you are astute enough to comprehend the inconsistency of descibing the conflict as almost existential on one hand and then still calling the implacably hostile western bloc as "partners" (per Lavrov a few months ago), while refusing to increase the tempo of military commitment.

I would further emphasize that what is obvious to so many here (you included) and beyond this blog, that this is indeed an existential conflict between the Anglo-American empire and Russia, should also be perceived as such for the leadership. Thus, the decimation of the Ukrainian state and military means jack when the actual enemy has also decided to turn the country into a battlefield to bleed the Russians. And its absolutely clear that they have been able to do that with almost complete impunity, setting themselves Russia's red lines and then progressively crossing them. It's easy for safely coddled internet commentators to talk about inevitable victories and the horrendous losses of the AFU, when it is others who have to bleed and achieve that in increasingly horrid conditions.

NATO's brazen bellicosity is to a great extent fueled by the absolute inconsistency of Russian statements and their following actions, such as Putin's pompous threat "we haven't started yet". Considering the hardships of the troops, the horrid treatment of the captives by the Ukro-Nazis and the misery of pro-Russian and Russian Ukrainians, when exactly should that happen? Such developments could have been avoided if basic axioms of war and leadership had been adopted.

And that is without mentioning the effect on the morale both in Russia and the greater international resistance camp as well as the camp of the imperialist scum. It would have been significantly better if Russia was portrayed with less capabilities, but dtermined to go all the way, than having the pathetic spectacle of Russian leaders chestbeating and showing their fancy arsenal and then trying to tone down everything in fear of western escalation, when Washington and its vassals should be afraid of the exact opposite.

And in any cas, whatever dvelopments may come in this conflict and elsewhere, the MoA should keep the bar fairly clean and friendly. It is disappointing when various commentators who have contributed to the bar for quite some time, start attacking other barlies who offer solid opinions and equating them with blatant Russophobic NAFO trolls like "Tom UK" or "yenwoda" who blatantly support western imperialism and ethno-supremacism. I mean, some things are quite obvious and the bar should maintain its standards.

Posted by: Constantine | Nov 13 2022 15:06 utc | 11

"...the U.S. can print money, and thereby afford to continue the conflict indefinitley..."

This is a very common assertion, but it is false. The US can print pieces of paper (so long as the paper supply chains hold out) but it cannot print troops, ammunition, and weapons systems. The first doesn't magically transform into the latter.

By the way, making this assertion about money is one way you can tell someone has never had a real economically productive job. People who have actually manufactured commodities, like in a factory or on a farm, don't tend to take civilization's artifacts for granted. People who have only consumed but have never produced (sadly most of the America population now) have the luxury of living in the delusion that pieces of paper printed with a particular design are all that matters and everything else can just be bought at Walmart.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 13 2022 15:10 utc | 12

From the previous thread:

The Russian Army is now larger than at the beginning of the SMO in which additional forces are now building in the North, with the original 85% capacity of the Russian Army force still available while military production capacity has been increased and the Russian economy very much in tacked.

NATO countries are financially stressed, energy deficient, and have a very angry population dynamic that is growing by the day who will be shocked by the overwhelming defeat that their respective political leaders did nothing to prepare them for.

Go back and listen to Putin’s original speech he gave on announcing the SMO and the references he made concerning the documents presented to NATO and America in which NATO needed to withdraw to 1997 boundaries.

When Russia launches its offensive we are about to watch the disintegration of NATO. The 1997 boundaries would be a good outcome for NATO given the state of play.

Posted by: MJK | Nov 13 2022 12:33 utc | 284

If it comes to a war of attrition, and it is between Russia + China + Iran + North Korea against the Collective West, the Collective West stands no chance. Just as Nazi Germany + Japan + Italy stood no chance in WWII, and Germany + Austro-Hungary stood no chance in WWI.

For basic reasons having to do with industrial capacity.

However, if it's Russia alone versus the Collective West, things get dicey.

Because while the Collective West has been deindustrialized, so has been Russia, not to the same extent, but it is a nearly 10:1 ratio in terms of population size in favor of the Collective West, and this matters.

If it was USSR vs. current Collective West, again, no chance for the Collective West.

But current Russia will have a hard time alone.

Especially if the core Collective West mobilizes South Korea, Japan and Taiwan, which do have a large industrial capacity.

So Russia has three options:

1) Finish the war quick.

2) Cut Ukraine off from Western support. That can still be done, but is getting harder and harder every day that Ukraine gets armed more heavily.

3) The allies will have to pitch in with actual support.

Hopefully there is a major offensive coming soon and some combination of 1) and 2) is accomplished. We will see. But right now it is not looking good...

Posted by: Tbx | Nov 13 2022 15:15 utc | 13

Mr. Constantine, yes we can and should keep the discussion clean and friendly as you say. But the trolls have been a bit disruptive of a rational conversation, don't you think? Russia is not going to lose this conflict, just as the US would not lose a proxy war if Russia started one against us in Mexico. So please, no one here who can think straight thinks that Russia is demoralized, or that Ukraine is in a good position. Ukraine is milking US/NATO for all they can get, and I expect the leadership may even flee with their ill-gotten cash as the fighting rages on for who knows how long. Russia has not even started seriously degrading the infrastructure of Ukraine because they would prefer a non-destroyed Ukraine, rather than one that needs complete rebuilding. The only question for me now is, how long will the US be able to dupe the EU into slowly destroying their own economies to please the military industrial complex? I suppose that also depends on how bad this upcoming winter is in Europe. But the idea that sowing doubt in people's minds at MoA is going to help the Ukrainians win is just silly. The Ukrainians lost when then forced Russia's hand.

Posted by: John R Moffett | Nov 13 2022 15:19 utc | 14

I would like to see Russia begin another mobilization. I know they haven't really used much of what they already mobilized. But I would like them to have a surplus of troops available in case NATO gets real stupid. It might actually work as a deterrent.

Posted by: Leroy | Nov 13 2022 15:26 utc | 15

While I generally agree with Mr. Gruff about printing money, my observation is there's enough manufacturing capability left in the U.S. to call armament production into place fairly quickly as long as the cash holds out. (It will likely fail sometime, as it did temporarily in 2007, and much longer in the early 1930's, when creditors will no longer accept our money.)

I was actually involved in one such activity about 30 years ago, when my company manufactured and sold the Government 30,000 Tempested PC's, at $10K apiece, until the state-of-the-art negated the need for them. It can be done, and I've participated in it.

Posted by: Seward | Nov 13 2022 15:29 utc | 16

@ John R Moffett | Nov 13 2022 15:19 utc | 15

The only question for me now is, how long will the US be able to dupe the EU into slowly destroying their own economies to please the military industrial complex? I suppose that also depends on how bad this upcoming winter is in Europe. But the idea that sowing doubt in people's minds at MoA is going to help the Ukrainians win is just silly. The Ukrainians lost when then forced Russia's hand.

True that.
But to add a few things on some issues there.

EU with a current leadership stands no chance to resist US.
Winters are usually pretty bad in Europe, every and each one has at least 3-4 weeks temperatures below the zero Celsius. That would be draining EU's energy enough, and about the same as every year.
Just the fact is that every past year a river of cheap gas was coming in. But EU populous is not aware what that means until it feels current reality.

And yes, also NATO lost this war the very day they opted to the unlimited support of Ukraine.

Posted by: whirlX | Nov 13 2022 15:35 utc | 17

Of course the trolls come out in full force as soon as there's any little PR victory, which is all Khereson is. So many new names spouting their gibberish. Where were you all when Russia was eliminating hundreds of ukronazis and mercenaries everyday? You all slid back under the rock you came from. Guess what?? Russia is still eliminating hundreds per day plus forcing an evacuation of Kiev it seems due to lack of power. If anyone believes the outcome is anything but a Russian victory then I have some amazing farm land in the Sahara to sell you. Ukraine will be a frozen cemetery of nazis very soon.

Posted by: Watzov | Nov 13 2022 15:36 utc | 18

Patrick Lawrence's impression of the Kherson withdrawal makes sense to me:

Why Are the Russians Retreating in Ukraine?

It is very likely Surovikin, who is putting his own plans and people in place like some new-broom corporate CEO, has taken one step back prior to taking two forward. I don’t think anyone too far from the Russian high command can say when, but the signs just enumerated indicate that a major new offensive is in the offing at some point in the new year. [more]

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Nov 13 2022 15:46 utc | 19

The Empire Strikes Back :

At least four killed and 38 others have been injured after an explosion hit Istanbul’s busy Istiklal thoroughfare, according to city’s governor Ali Yerlikaya.
Yerlikaya earlier tweeted that the explosion occurred at about 4:20pm (13:20 GMT) on Sunday.
At least six dead, 53 injured in Istiklal blast: Erdogan
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said that the explosion in Istanbul’s Istiklal Street was caused by a “bomb attack,” adding that six people died in the incident.
Speaking before his departure to the G-20 summit in Indonesia on Sunday, Erdogan said the explosion was a “treacherous attack” and its perpetrators would be punished.

No surprise, it was only a matter of time before the Anglo-American empire started upping the pressure on the Sultan ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 13 2022 15:47 utc | 20

WG @ 13

Very true but it has been working that way due to the strength of the USD.

Of course it will ultimately fail because all this printed money has gone to support real estate and stocks and not as you mention commodity development.

It took a strong outside force (Russia) to push back against the military force backing the USD.

‘Printed’ USDs can buy whatever is for sale in that currency. It is now running into foreign exchange problems and countries trading in other currencies. The US can’t print rubles.

Posted by: financial matters | Nov 13 2022 15:51 utc | 21

"Considering ... the horrid treatment of the captives by the Ukro-Nazis and the misery of pro-Russian and Russian Ukrainians..."

Yes, Russia is facing extermination by real-world monsters; by the most hideously demonic forces humanity has ever produced. Calling them orcs and Nazi zombies does not do justice to how utterly devoid of humanity the Empire and its death legions are. It certainly sucks to be Russian right now.

I think some supposed "patriotic Russians and Russophiles" might underestimate the scale of the evil they are up against, and the reality of the conflict. For Russia winning means surviving, but there is more that the Russian leadership is trying to accomplish. Russian leadership wants not only for Russia to survive, but also to ultimately develop friendly and mutually beneficial relations with their neighbors.

I have often argued that Russia should perform a sudden, very sharp tactical nuclear strike on numerous NATO facilities all at once. This is NOT to militarily defeat the EU and the US. Rather, it is intended as a sharp frappé à la tête to hopefully break the West out of the delusion it exists in that is the source of its villainy and global aggression.

Short of that kind of move the careful and restrained actions the Russian leadership is taking are the only way to leave open the possibility of good relations should economic pressure alone break the West out of the grand delusion.

It is a drag dealing with a mindlessly hysterical bitch screaming at you, clawing at you, hitting at you, and sometimes those hits hurt. Your options are to deliver to her a solid punch in the mouth to help her develop a sense of proportion (my recommendation) or to defend yourself as best you can and take the hits until the bitch burns her hysteria out and starts thinking again on her own (Russia's current course).

I am not going to say Russia's choice is wrong just because it isn't the choice I would make. Russia's approach definitely has merits, and if Russia can outlast the West's hysteria then more power to them.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 13 2022 15:54 utc | 22

In the meantime, the U.S. can print money, and thereby afford to continue the conflict indefinitley, until public opinion turns against it.
Posted by: Seward | Nov 13 2022 14:35 utc | 10

That may have been true in the past, but not since the US has outsourced critical mfg & weaponized the petro$.

The US is running low on arms & the
latest GAO report on readiness makes clear we cannot win conventional wars against Russia and (or) China.

The US is also losing status as reserve currency. The destruction of Europe is a temporary stopgap to hang onto its status, but the reality is that ultimately the money will follow the holders of real wealth, ie resources & mfg capacity.

Posted by: Mary | Nov 13 2022 15:58 utc | 23

Looks like Dugin is pointing out what is obviously wrong with Russia in two key observations:

"Dugin sees the responsibility for this with the state power. Russia is an autocracy in which the people have endowed the president with "absolute and comprehensive powers". These "absolute" powers would also bring with them "absolute" responsibility. Autocracy means, he added, "the abundance of power in success, but also the abundance of responsibility in failure".

""The Russian idea. Only they. It's stupid to accept the total annihilation of humanity just because you're afraid of the Russian idea, of our ideology. There is no other way. (...) The war must be taken in its entirety become a war of the people. But the state must also become a state of the people, of the Russian people. And not remain as it is now."

In other words, Russia cannot remain as it is indefinitively: an oligarchy, full of the most overt and arbitrary corruption, incomparably more inefficient and retrograde than China, because as such it will stand no chance against the West, which at least ideologizes democracy and even at times social democracy, though it may not necessarily implement it. Yet what ideology does Russia have to offer in lieu of democracy, even of social democracy, not speak of Chinese socialism or does it plan on remaining an authoritarian state in perpetuity?

Posted by: Ludovic | Nov 13 2022 15:58 utc | 24

Posted by: Seward | Nov 13 2022 15:29 utc | 17

You may want to tell that to the GAO, cause they seem mighty concerned about the US "readiness".

Posted by: Mary | Nov 13 2022 16:05 utc | 25

Posted by: John R Moffett | Nov 13 2022 15:19 utc | 15

I agree with almost everything in this post, with a few caveats and specifications to add:

FIrst, I definitely recognize the disruptive ifluence of the trolls. It was inescapable that this would happen in a dissident blog. However, when the barflies end up so agitated to accuse other barflies of trolling and struggle to turn the forums into echo chambers of sorts, then the trolls have indirectly but decisively succeeded. When people who should know better equate champions of Anglo-American/western imperialism with those who offer valid criticism of the Russian leadership's decision (and mid you, this has much to do with the course UP to February 2022), then the trolls have achieved an important goal.

Further, I do not consider this conflict a confrontation between Russia and Ukraine anymore than the Naz invasion in 1941 being a war between the USSR and Romania. I cannot stress this enough. And it is imperative to understand that by extension, the debate goes between pro-Russian (or anti-Imperialists/anti-globalists) and anti-Russian, NOT pro-Ukrainian. The people who wish to see Ukraine fight to the death just to bleed one of the opponents of the Anglo-American empire are NOT pro-Ukrainian.

This is not trivial. The effective decimation of Ukraine as a functioning state is not necessarily a victory against NATO when the latter is advancing even in Ukrainian uniforms (though, with so many western troops now, even that is no longer necessary). And yes, Russia can do more and guess what, that is exactly what should have happened many months before. The attack on the electric grid should have been unleashed by early March at thelatest, the RF should have been prepared for mobilization much earlier, the diplomatic corps should have gotten its act together instead of engaging into coplacency or boomer moments etc.

I also have the impression that you don't follow actual Russia much, which this blog isn't part of. The current trend is a combination of copium, anger and frustration, often showing openly in the Russian media. Again, reality for those whose country is engaged in an existential confict with their loved ones and fellow nationals being exposed to increasingly more lethal NATO weaponry is very different from commentators in a western blog, even if the latter comment with the best intentions.

In the end, even if the result is an astounding success for Russia, criticism for the conduct of the war is still perfectly valid. WWII ended with the complete military and political defeat of the axis, but there is a ton of criticism to be made regarding the early performance of the victors.

Posted by: Constantine | Nov 13 2022 16:07 utc | 26

As others here have alluded to, there is a critically important fact that is often overlooked.

Russia manufactures its own weapons and its soldiers are expertly trained in their use. Regarding Iranian drones, I think Russian soldiers are also trained in their use.

The opposite situation regarding Ukraine. They use imported weapons. They are largely untrained in their use. They get a lot of crappy old stuff - vehicles with the wrong wheels & parts. They get no spare parts.

Its as if the US and others are purposely ridding themselves of useless junk for war profiteering. Imagine that.

That mercs are brought to the fore, is a game of playing catch up. Perhaps some, not all of these mercs will know how to use some of the weaponry.

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Nov 13 2022 16:10 utc | 27

Eventually the Ukrainians would have taken out the dam, flooded Kherson, swamped the civilians, and trapped a good number of Russian forces on the other side of the river without adequate resupply.

Small wonder why they evacuated the civilians and moved their forces. War is war, things ebb and flow. The Ukraine is a huge country with a great deal of infrastructure and water boundries. The Ukraine has some very wealthy backers who want to see the current Russian leadership fail and fall apart.

It is simple dynamics of a bad situation with just average people being chewed up for someone else's gain. Someone posted a video series from the '70's about The Unknown War. The memories must be very painful and in some respects Russia is becoming more vulnerable now that then. They had to act and this will go on for a decade or more just like Afghanistan but I doubt the end on Russia's part will be like the US end in Afghanistan.

The Unknown War

Posted by: circumspect | Nov 13 2022 16:16 utc | 28

@Watzon 19

You wrote: "Where were you all when Russia was eliminating hundreds of ukronazis and mercenaries everyday?"

Just a quick note -- most of you probably have no real connection to people in Ukraine, but the sad fact is that most of the Ukrainian men being killed never wanted to be there. There is martial law in Ukraine and nobody between 18 and 60 can leave. There are men who are simply caught while out shopping or getting gas or doing errands and they wind up in the military. Typically, when these men are put on the front lines, they are often backed up by the ultra nationalists and if someone fails to charge when told, they get shot in the back.

When the war started in 2014, the first soldiers went to the Donbas to subdue them would not fire on their fellow Ukrainians, so they were recalled and the great cleansing of the military began, and the ukronazis as you call them were suddenly given great acceptance and authority and the renewed army was more than willing to kill the Russian-speaking Ukrainians in the Donbas.

Also, try to remember that the entire population has been inundated with propaganda for eight years, so when the government bans political opposition and television stations are only allowed to broadcast government approved propaganda, it starts changing the way people think. These are good people and nobody should forget that...but to just classify them all as ukronazis is just wrong. Most are just trying to survive a nightmare.

Posted by: OdessaConnected | Nov 13 2022 16:19 utc | 29

reply to 21

I cringe at saying 'good' when an incident harms the innocent. In this geopolitical chess game, threatening Erdogan with domestic terrorism tends to strengthen him. In balance, this maintains the fight against Hegemony.

Posted by: Eighthman | Nov 13 2022 16:29 utc | 30

Leroy @ 16

I would like to see Russia begin another mobilization. I know they haven't really used much of what they already mobilized.

Russians woke up very late but maybe they figured out NATO is going full WW3 on them. Maybe they are mobilizing above the 300k they stated. All through history actual troop strength is something you want to keep secret so who knows what the Russians are up to.

Given the country's size and how many bases they have and how spread out they all are they could probably train twice the 300K without NATO noticing. Still pointless unless everything, uniforms, boots, protection, food, mobile kitchens & showers, medical, and guns and ammo at a minimum aren't ready, then there's the heavy stuff, trucks, artillery, tanks, aviation to back them.

They should still get on it. I have no idea how to run a military but I'll throw this out there: I think every company fighting should have 15% conscripts rotated through it for three months, kept in the rear unless the choose to go to join the fighting, to season the conscript force and take their measure, see which ones have what's necessary to fight and move into command.

By not doing this they are missing that essential part of war where unexpectedly brilliant soldiers and future commanders appear out of hoi polloi. This is one of the big downsides of professional armies, and one of the reason the USA loses so much. If the war does scale up the seasoned forces they have now could start losing good field officers faster than they can replace them.

My guess is the incompetence has not been flushed out of the system yet. It may take a new team of wartime leaders, people several steps ahead instead of several steps behind, to rise up from the ranks, hope not, that would be a lot of WW3 shit-storm for all of us.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 13 2022 16:36 utc | 31

It is a drag dealing with a mindlessly hysterical bitch screaming at you, clawing at you, hitting at you, and sometimes those hits hurt. Your options are to deliver to her a solid punch in the mouth to help her develop a sense of proportion (my recommendation) or to defend yourself as best you can and take the hits until the bitch burns her hysteria out and starts thinking again on her own (Russia's current course).

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 13 2022 15:54 utc | 23

The problem is that Russia's current course for what is supposedly an existential conflict is minimalist and has by every identifiable metric emboldened the Anglo-American regime. I also believe that the imperial sociopaths need to feel the burn and I'm not even talking about tactical nukes, but the approach espoused by the Kremlin is so reserved - especially considering what is truly at stake - that NATO acts more brazenly instead of the side that has excalation dominance.

And it is precisely because, as you correctly pointed, the Empire reeks of pure evil and unfettered malevolence that the Russian leadership should have been more resolute. Instead, the standard modus operandi has been for years to spout potential threats to offenders, make exhibitions of new weaponry to back those threats and then toning failing to defend practically every red line set (often, incredibly enough, by the west). It would have been infinitely better to avoid this showing off in a lame effort to discourage western adventurism, but once things got serious to act decisively.

One can say this is just a view, but the brazen escalatory moves on the part of the Anglo-American regime are an undisputed reality. And the current level of decimation of Ukrainian statehood (which, in a perverted way, is partly desired by the west) is no substitute for the actual foil of NATO.

It goes without saying that should conflict come in Taiwan, the west won't care in the least for the local population. The goal will be to wage a costly proxy war against China, the ultimate target of the global Anglo-American offensive.

Posted by: Constantine | Nov 13 2022 16:37 utc | 32

@ Constantine | Nov 13 2022 16:07 utc | 27

thanks for your commentary here and earlier.. i agree with a lot of what you say... i also agree with a lot of what william gruff says too, but like you would like to skip the troll focus..

and i too share the viewpoint this is a war between usa led nato and russia which makes the situation here more complicated.. it is civilizational too in that i think time is running out on the planet for a continuation of 'business as usual' and for the idea that one country can dominate all others in a unipolar manner... so... a lot of things are going on here that discourage an easy answer, in spite of most peoples demand for an easy answer, or a straight forward and clear response to all of the threads that are coming together at this juncture in our world.. that people would have a very different response to all of this is further encouraged by the role the msm plays in all of this, whether it be russian, american or whatever msm... all of it is focused on the short term, not the long term..

there is a lot of fakery going on too, so thinking one can read the signs based off any one event will probably lead to a flawed analysis of the said event.. i can't say i know if this is the case with kherson, but i can't rule it out either... so, i wouldn't be too quick to judge russia here myself, although i see most posters doing exactly this.. i mostly see the flaws in others, as opposed to myself, lol!

which brings me to a post that peter au shared on an open thread which is really relevant here... it bears to keep this in mind..

@ Peter AU1 | Nov 13 2022 3:53 utc | 91

Brzezinski Interview

"Brzezinski : Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter, essentially: “We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war." Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war that was unsustainable for the regime , a conflict that bought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire."

Target countries and sacrificial countries... Soviet Union the target, Afghanistan the sacrificial country.
Russia the target, Ukraine the sacrificial country.
China the target, Taiwan the sacrificial country.

Encourage sacrificial country to cross target country's red lines, then denounce target country for aggression. Simples. Sheeple fall for it every time. No anti war marches, just fervent support for the war against the target country."

thanks peter..

thanks to all those in the world who wish to live in a better world that rises above war and all the devastation that goes with it..

Posted by: james | Nov 13 2022 16:47 utc | 33

@ OdessaConnected | Nov 13 2022 16:19 utc | 30

Thanx for that effort to explain ordinary Ukrainian male situation.
A Russian friend of mine told me a long time ago that there is no difference between Ukrainians and Russians at all.
Not that Ukrainians are (were) more 'Westernized' or more anti-Russia or differ in any other thing at that time.
It must be really difficult to fight this war from the brotherhood and relatives point of a view.
In all this tragedy, it was rather funny to hear on some videos Chechen soldiers to call Ukrainians - Niemtzi (Germans), as there is a WWII going on.
What a crazy situation that is.

Posted by: whirlX | Nov 13 2022 16:48 utc | 34

Ukraine is a massive unsinkable aircraft carrier right in the x roads of has the same role as extend influence to an important geographic area...the middle east and it's energy and Suez canal. Read up on who in the U.S government are invested...both economic concerns in Ukraine. NATO is all in because the U.S is all in. Russia has destroyed the strongest Western European army with a bare minimum of expenditure of resources...cepting maybe artillery expenditure. Russia's military districts are still fully manned and alert but not being allocated to Ukrainian operations...with alot of America's heavy armour idling in Romania.....just getting there quite recently from the U.S I suspect plan B is about to be initiated. A NATO thrust into Western Ukraine concurrently with the soon Russian thrust salvage their unsinkable carrier or they are expecting a diversionary attack against Russia's rear or belly.

Posted by: Joe | Nov 13 2022 16:50 utc | 35

The funniest thing about how god damn dumb trolls are is that all their actions are ignorant of the Primary Fact... that Russia doesn't give two shits about "trending social media".

I suppose facebook morons might be swayed to go merc, so at least they got Darwin on their side. Won't make a single truckload of 155 shells, though

Posted by: comrade simba | Nov 13 2022 16:51 utc | 36

Mary @ 26

You may want to tell that to the GAO, cause they seem mighty concerned about the US "readiness".

That report's nonsense, 10% psyops 90% to get a broke USA populace to fork over the few hundred dollars they have in savings to support the mother of all defense increases coming in the new year.

Maybe the bankrupt USA Fed will start selling war bonds, watch the country's stars, billionaires, and corporations line up on stage, Biden shaking their hands, holding up big cardboard checks with a giant "buy war bonds" banner behind them, and flag, lots and lots of flags.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 13 2022 16:52 utc | 37

"Possibly, something happened in early Septemeber that led to this decision. I do not know what that might have been."

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Nov 13 2022 13:49 utc | 6

Russia damaged a floodgate in Krivoy Rog to raise the water level and destroy the pontoons Ukraine was using to cross the Dnieper. Ukraine started shelling the dam near Kherson shortly after that.

Posted by: First Time Poster | Nov 13 2022 16:55 utc | 38

Those expressing opinions disagreeable to your own are Trolls. It's that simple. I would suggest "Cock of the Walk!" as a descriptor for like-minded compatriots.

Posted by: Elmagnostic | Nov 13 2022 16:56 utc | 39

Posted by: james | Nov 13 2022 16:47 utc | 34

Good re-post from PeterAU re: Brzezinksi. Connects to Madeline "price is was worth it" Albright. US (and now EU/NATO) leaders really do see the world as a game, albeit a serious one, in which they are moving pieces and sacrificing others. Even willing to sacrifice civilian pieces as needed. Shamefully inhumane.

Add to the list: Iran the target, sacrifice Yemen, Syria, and Iraq (maybe).

Posted by: Objective Observer | Nov 13 2022 17:03 utc | 40

You know that GAO thingy - saying that US aircraft are more or less rubbish when it comes to preparedness? There was a thing (Larry's site?) a while back telling us that the question to ask was "why are they telling us that now?". I'm not really thinking that they are telling me (or us, or the US public) this time. It seems to me that they are telling the uniparty, "You may have won the election but military reality hasn't changed so don't be getting any big ideas". But what do i know? I thought that the uniparty would have used the election to give themselves an off-ramp but it seems that the neo-cons (and the ballot-box-stuffers) are sufficiently bought into their own propaganda that they don't see that they need one. Which is why the GAO is speaking up now.

Posted by: Guy L'Estrange | Nov 13 2022 17:14 utc | 41

A Russian friend of mine told me a long time ago that there is no difference between Ukrainians and Russians at all.

Posted by: whirlX | Nov 13 2022 16:48 utc | 35

Ask a Ukrainian friend the same question and you will get a very different answer. Ukraine (the nation) is not a homogenous society. There is more Germanic/Polish influence and DNA in the west and more Russian in the east. There are also at least 3 distinct religious divides.

Here in Canada, when you look at and listen to the leadership of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, the Germanic influence is obvious. Yet they pretend to represent the interests of all Ukrainians. Total BS.

However, what the landslide victory in the 2019 Presidential election proved, is that the vast majority of the people wanted everyone to just get along. Minsk 2 would have done that, but was sabotaged.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Nov 13 2022 17:15 utc | 42

these sanctions on russia or china are an important part of the war going on... the so called international system - swift, imf, world bank and etc. etc. are being used as bludgeoning tools against russia and i suspect the usa will start using them on china too.. these institutions were set up to favour the usa after ww 2, but they no longer serve their purpose and instead are being used against the main competitors... i get it that wall st or the city of london wants to corner the financial world market, but to me this is an important part of what this war in ukraine, and any future war in taiwan and etc. etc is about... keep on using the international institutions like a bludgeon against any potential competition... it can't work in the long run... just how long the run is, remains an open question...

Posted by: james | Nov 13 2022 17:15 utc | 43

@ Opport Knocks | Nov 13 2022 17:15 utc | 43

i agree strongly with everything you said...most people are oblivious to all of this too.

Posted by: james | Nov 13 2022 17:16 utc | 44

Russia damaged a floodgate in Krivoy Rog to raise the water level and destroy the pontoons Ukraine was using to cross the Dnieper. Ukraine started shelling the dam near Kherson shortly after that.

Posted by: First Time Poster | Nov 13 2022 16:55 utc | 39

Krivoy Rog is not on Dnieper but on Ingulets river. The dam damage caused flooding of the city as well.
Overall, it should be noted that this war caused quite significant suffering of the population. What a tragedy.

Posted by: hopehely | Nov 13 2022 17:17 utc | 45

According to the UK Daily Telegraph (the house magazine of MI5), Russian forces retreated from Kherson in panic and chaotic disorder, throwing away their weapons and abandoning the wounded, changing into civilian clothes after being told it was "every man for himself." I'm only surprised they didn't throw in the bit about getting drunk on vodka and raping babies.

Posted by: paul | Nov 13 2022 17:18 utc | 46

comrade simba @ 37

The funniest thing about how god damn dumb trolls are is that all their actions are ignorant of the Primary Fact... that Russia doesn't give two shits about "trending social media".

That's not why the trolls are here, at least most of them, this needs restating, the reason the trolls are here is to reduce this forum to a two dimensional, incoherent, grotesque, antisemitic hate rag and make it impossible to recommend and share with people and spread the insights and dissidence, to keep the discourse here and a few other intelligent sites discussing the war insular and remote and far from the agora.

The empire has survived 70 years of relentless military failures and the associated internal decline because people didn't find out what disastrous misadventures they'd been led on until too late. This, the mother of all misadventures, requires even the most insignificant sources of dissent to be slandered.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 13 2022 17:19 utc | 47

^^^ So, don't feed the trolls. Unless it's with a clever, witty putdown we can all enjoy.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 13 2022 17:21 utc | 48

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Nov 13 2022 16:10 utc | 28

Precisely so.

Ukraine's equipment from AA, APCs, artillery and air defense are mostly a mish mash of equipment coming from periphery Nato countries, who have over past produced in relatively small production volumes and consequently relatively few spare parts. They are mostly gone now. US has run out of 155mm (M-777) howitzers, HIMARs and a lot of other stuff. No more javelins, which have not had proven success any way. There are no common factors when it comes to repairing and resupplying ammunition and spare parts. The transportation infrastructure should gradually degrade, making it harder for Nato to wage war east and south.

Posted by: unimperator | Nov 13 2022 17:24 utc | 49

@Posted by: circumspect | Nov 13 2022 16:16 utc | 29

Yes, the pull-out from Kherson was the right call given the facts on the ground. The frustration is that those facts on the ground would not have arisen if not for Kremlin mishandling of the war up to that point. As you, say they refrained from even hitting critical infrastructure for months. They allowed unrestricted flow of supplies and weapons from the west. They were too afraid to kill American and European "advisors" and hit their intelligence centers in Ukraine. This stymied Russian advancement that could have been made along the south to Odessa. There are a million things that could have been approached better that were not. Of course, what is done is done, and currently the question is whether the Kremlin will continue to make these blatant errors or if they have the political will to crush the Ukraine going forward and decisively win through whatever means necessary.

Posted by: FVK | Nov 13 2022 17:30 utc | 50

Circumspect (29),
Afghan conflict in no ways resembles the Ukrainian one. First, the modern Russian army is completely different The than the old Soviet one with technological edges in drones, anti-aircraft defenses, cyber-driven artillery, missile systems, and the like. Unlike in Vietnam (for the U.S.) and Afghanistan, Russia is losing very few aircraft as it decimates Ukraine with cruise missiles and kamikaze drones. It has the industrial capacity and supply capabilities to keep turning these arms out for years. Secondly, much of Ukraine's population is pro-Russian and there are no jihadists fighting the Russians, mainly just conscripted youth and mercenaries from the West forced into battle by neo-Nazi elements. Third, Afghanistan was mainly a nation of small, poor villages, but Ukraine has(d) a very advanced infrastructure that sustains(ed) a modern nation. If that goes, there will be little left of Ukraine. And finally, the West has trapped itself into suicidal sanctions of its own making and cannot survive economically if the conflict extends into next year or beyond.

Posted by: FHTEX | Nov 13 2022 17:30 utc | 51

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 13 2022 15:54 utc | 23

You are having an extremist view here. You also over simplify economic factors and reduce the complex Western mindset to a fairy-tale demon. This is the type of thinking that produces overconfidence and blowhard behavior - exactly what the info ops of the West wants.

This is also the type of thinking - probably over represented in russian military circles - that brought Russia to the situation it is in now.

There are no wonder weapons, no general winter, no 300k magical superwarriors that will willingly go fight for the vague overconfident goals Russia has set for itself here. There is determination, spirit and newfound motivation if one abandons juvenile thinking, recognizes own errors/limitations and confronts the situation.

In my opinion, Russia was tricked in the beginning and has been avoiding to see that fact. Escalating every time and being met with a prepared wall of counter escalations.

Who knows, maybe the situation in the West is indeed hopeless economically but I fail to see it and I doubt any of us without privileged info can see it clearer. Maybe there is indeed some reason Russia is making itself seem weak, vengeful, spent and incompetent (as compared to the pumped up expectations).

But what I know is that the tide on the ground has turned decidedly against Russia the past 3-4 months and it can probably just barely hold on to many areas going forward.

Posted by: alek_a | Nov 13 2022 17:33 utc | 52

Opport Knocks | Nov 13 2022 17:15 utc | 43

I have both Russian and Ukrainian ancestry - the ethnicity situation can be simply described as follows

a. People who consider themselves Ethnic Russians, speak Russian and are Orthodox
b. People who consider themselves Ethnic Ukrainians, speak Russian and are Orthodox
c. People who consider themselves Ethnic Ukrainians, speak Ukrainian and are Orthodox
d. People who consider themselves Ethnic Ukrainians, speak Ukrainian and are Uniate Catholic
e. People who consider themselves Ethnic Rusyns, speak Ruthenian and are Orthodox. (concentrated in Transcarpathia)
f. Ethnic Poles - a few left most murdered by group d during WWII
g. Ethnic Jews - mostly speak Russian - again mostly murdered in WWII
h. Other peoples from the Former Soviet Union - e.g. Tatars and Koreans

Groups a, b, c and h intermarry (their identities are flexible) -to a lesser extent also groups g. Groups d and e tend to be more endogamous
Group d are the most nationalist and hostile to others but nationalists can be found amongst all the groups

Posted by: Aslangeo | Nov 13 2022 17:34 utc | 53

@William Gruff 23 and earlier

It is a drag dealing with a mindlessly hysterical bitch screaming at you, clawing at you, hitting at you, and sometimes those hits hurt. Your options are to deliver to her a solid punch in the mouth to help her develop a sense of proportion (my recommendation) or to defend yourself as best you can and take the hits until the bitch burns her hysteria out and starts thinking again on her own (Russia's current course).

I have appreciated your comments over many years, and I thank you for this revealing analogy. I think it is spot on.

I generally do not read the comments any more due to the tendency to engage in war porn. But I remain much more positive about the sad situation in Ukraine as I can easily recognise the trolls of whom you write, and I simply ignore them. I have tried to persuade my friends to fight back against the propaganda onslaught but have largely failed. I remain sanguine about that too and don’t let it bother me. We still meet for a few beers at the appropriate times.

What will be will be. Short of a nuclear conflagration, I think we are heading in the right direction.

Posted by: echelon | Nov 13 2022 17:41 utc | 54

the newest fool has spoken, lol...

Posted by: james | Nov 13 2022 17:43 utc | 55

james | Nov 13 2022 17:15 utc | 44

From a Foreign Policy article I linked a few days ago, US in now working on a sanctions from hell package for China. "deter" is the word they use.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 13 2022 17:45 utc | 56

FHTEX @ 52

The comparison only applies to the failure not to the operations in Afghanistan. It also applies to the deceit and goals of our Western Leaders. In fact, the comparison is apt in that a portion of the weapons and monetary aid is siphoned off.

Posted by: circumspect | Nov 13 2022 17:45 utc | 57

It is a drag dealing with a mindlessly hysterical bitch screaming at you, clawing at you, hitting at you, and sometimes those hits hurt. Your options are to deliver to her a solid punch in the mouth to help her develop a sense of proportion (my recommendation) or to defend yourself as best you can and take the hits until the bitch burns her hysteria out and starts thinking again on her own (Russia's current course).

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 13 2022 15:54 utc | 23

The problem is that Russia's current course for what is supposedly an existential conflict is minimalist and has by every identifiable metric emboldened the Anglo-American regime.

Posted by: Constantine | Nov 13 2022 16:37 utc | 33

Yes, the mindlessly hysterical bitch of western society has only become more hysterical. The failure to get the response she was seeking has caused her to escalate the hysteria. This is typical behavior for hysterical individuals as well.

But hysteria is costly. Again, the key question is can Russia outlast the crazy bitch's hysteria? Or as some trolls suggest can the hysteria continue ad infinitum?

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 13 2022 17:49 utc | 58

FVK @ 51

It certainly looks like failure. I simply do not know the real goals of what Russia wants to accomplish. There is a great deal of speculation on that front. Many of us felt that Russia's military was a powerful unstoppable force on that front but we were wrong. Clearing the Donbas, an obvious goal, was not accomplished in short order.

The Russian military appears to have many gaps that need to be filled. My question is does NATO have the stomach to move beyond a proxy war and move into direct conflict?

They are no where near ready for direct conflict so proxy war works for them. This buys Russia time to perfect a military that is lacking in various aspects.

Posted by: circumspect | Nov 13 2022 17:52 utc | 59

Here in Canada, when you look at and listen to the leadership of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, the Germanic influence is obvious. Yet they pretend to represent the interests of all Ukrainians. Total BS.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Nov 13 2022 17:15 utc | 43

Well probably what they mean by 'Ukrainian' is only an ethnic Ukrainian (in the past known as Rusyns, Ruthenians and Lil' Russians). They represent their interests, not the interests of Ukrainian Hungarians, Romanians, Poles or Russians.

Posted by: hopehely | Nov 13 2022 17:53 utc | 60

@First Time Poster | Nov 13 2022 16:55 utc | 39

Russia damaged a floodgate in Krivoy Rog to raise the water level and destroy the pontoons Ukraine was using to cross the Dnieper. Ukraine started shelling the dam near Kherson shortly after that.
It was the Ingulets river the Ukrainians were crossing with pontoons, not the Dniepr.

Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 13 2022 17:56 utc | 61

I knew a Ukrainian (from what region I did not know) and a Russian from St. Petersburg whom are living in the US. They were friends. The Ukrainian, whom people assumed was Russian, was always quick to point out that she was Ukrainian. She did so even in the presence of the Russian. She was a tall and robust blonde. I employed her for a while as a receptionist. In the end she got on the wrong side of me. She was a stubborn woman. Though this is common among many people. generally.

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Nov 13 2022 18:00 utc | 62

Opport Knocks | Nov 13 2022 17:15 utc | 43

The history is of Galicia is different to the rest of Ukraine - Ukraine being the Kievan Rus who came under Polish rule and influence for part of their history. For 150 years or so, Galica was under Austrian rule and influence. The eatrn part of Galicia that is now part of Ukraine is Kievan Rus. The western part that is now in Poland was added to the Kievan Rus land to make up what on maps is Galicia. German immigrants move to that western section at some point in time. Late 1800's they began emigrating to Canada. By WWI virtually all Germans from Galicia had moved to Canada.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 13 2022 18:03 utc | 63

Possibly, something happened in early Septemeber that led to this decision. I do not know what that might have been.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Nov 13 2022 13:49 utc | 6

That is when the "Kherson offensive" started, as I recall.

Remember that the Russians moved into Kherson early in the SMO without a fight, and life there was pleasant for the residents until the Ukies started attacking them a couple of months ago.

Why would Russia leave then?

Posted by: wagelaborer | Nov 13 2022 18:04 utc | 64

"...reduce the complex Western mindset..."

There is no complexity. That's exactly like the transsexual I spoke with recently trying to convince me of how complex were his/her/it's personality and identity. That individual wasn't "complex", he was just fucked up. Emotionally and cognitively fragmented into mutually conflicting imagery and narrative, like a stained glass window that has been shattered and then just mixed up in a bucket. That is not complexity, it is just rubble.

You and your culture and your "mindset" are not "complex". You're just fucked up. The West is just a useless mess and your entire civilization is falling apart. There is only one destination on the West's current track and the only question is how much damage it will do to the rest of humanity on its way to that dead end.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 13 2022 18:06 utc | 65

This is my first comment and I thought I’d post my thoughts that I shared on Facebook is response to a question someone shared on when people think that Russia will retake Kherson…

Honestly, I think that Russia may let Ukraine occupy the area of Kherson that is west of the Dnieper River potentially for years or forever. I think they moved the citizens that were sympathetic to Russia to the east already. I think they will take the remainder of the Donbas and Zaporizhia which is all to the east of the Dnieper, and freeze the conflict in Kherson in perpetuity. Because the river will be the line. They have the portion of Kharkiv that is a trading point for peace, maybe that gets traded for Kherson but maybe that gets kept or traded away as a face saver for the west.

The point is that it is possible for Russia to keep their claim of that portion of Kherson but never actually take it. Considering it’s not of major importance, they moved statues and an important grave east of the river so in some ways they even decoupled their history from the west of the river. That river is a formidable natural barrier that isn’t matched on the east side Kherson border. That Ukraine and the West will eventually be able to claim Russia at the start of the war occupied some 35% of the country and at the end could be said to occupy 20% seems a way the west can save face. Considering that these are the resource rich areas and that Ukraine will be a subsidized rump, a corrupt dysfunctional government with a ruined economy, sucking resources from the west for decades in recovery. Russia probably can feel a success and lack of fear of a Ukraine build up by NATO with a security agreement that limits the range of NATO weapons in Ukraine if not a total lack of NATO.

The west has secured from Ukraine a total sellout of their country. Zelensky says they are open for business, land lease means that the Ukrainian country will be in debt forever and the greedy capitalists of the west will want to get their spoils sooner rather than later. I imagine that many in the EU will want to restore trade with Russia as well sooner than later and Russia seems willing.

So yeah, I think Kherson stays part of Ukraine potentially forever even as Russia never gives up it’s claim. It’s been said that it would be fairly impossible because of constitutional reasons for Russia to give up its land but they can easily never actually take it and have it be a simple paper concern. Remember that Russia has other territories that they semi claim, not constitutionally but in effect, like Transnistria. Putin claimed in a Q&A that their taking of Odessa is a negotiating pawn. Meaning that eventually they would take Odessa if no negotiation manifests but they would be willing to not do so if peace was possible. For the west they understand that Ukraine without Odessa is a totally pathetic rump country, so the US seems to have indicated that if they were to get involved directly Odessa seems to be the point where they might enter. Russia would ultimately like to avoid direct war with NATO but NATO may be too stupid to know that such a war would be as dangerous for them as it would be for Russia.

So I think that Russia will soon enough, before the end of the year, see major gains in the other areas maybe totally towards the Dnieper. I imagine that this will be their stopping point and they will build enormous defenses there and maybe we will see some temporary cease fires welcomed by Ukraine. If the ceasefires hold for a long time then it may hold till peace is eventually agreed. If it doesn’t then Russia may choose to keep going. But I’m hoping that the economic pressures and Ukraine fatigue will make it stop.

I would say that to some degree, Russia has $300B sitting in foreign reserves that are frozen but that the EU/US is trying to steal. Conceivably Russia could agree to some sort of Ukraine rebuild fund that gives some of those reserves to Ukraine to rebuild in the west and east. This is just a guess, it looks better for the west to not steal their money but twist their arm to agree to give it to rebuild. Russia has an economy that creates reserves it can’t easily use oddly enough this is actually a problem for them. They could trade their billions for peace and an end of sanctions in certain areas and normalcy. Just a thought, Russia seems to have assumed their funds are lost so better for them if they can get something for it. It also looks good for neighborliness if Russia is seen to give it to Ukraine as a grant.

Keep in mind that China wants to continue trading with the EU and they have already said to Germany you have basically screwed up with Russia. With the Turkstream and Nordstream 2 half potentially functional, the EU may start feeling favorable to really great economic terms offered to them over Ukraine peace. Especially since the gas situation will be much worse in 2023.

Posted by: Bruce Wilkinson | Nov 13 2022 18:12 utc | 66

You and your culture and your "mindset" are not "complex". You're just fucked up. The West is just a useless mess and your entire civilization is falling apart.
Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 13 2022 18:06 utc | 67

What civilization are you part of?
Which civilization is yours?

Posted by: hopehely | Nov 13 2022 18:20 utc | 68

@ 65 - It's kind of interesting that Ludwig von Mises and Leopold von Sacher-Masoch were both from Lviv. I have been told about some connection between Dymtro Dontsev and Sacher-Masoch and the Hapsburgs. I don't know where to find any additional information, though.

Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 13 2022 18:29 utc | 69

Russia miscalculated by invading with too few troops, and by refusing to treat this as a war. For example, why are foreign politicians and celebrities travelling to Kiev on a regular basis ? Why does Kiev still have electricity ? When will “the gloves come off”? Now Russia looks incompetent.

Printed money many be immoral and doomed in the long run, but the US dollar is not going to collapse in the next few years. That is a long term process that will take 10+ years.

Acting overconfident and accusing anyone who disagrees of being trolls is just an emotional reaction.

If Russia wants to keep its prestige and be seen as a superpower, it needs to get serious and treat this as a war.

Otherwise the Global South will begin to move back to the US. At a certain point, in our despair, are we going to accuse the whole world of being trolls ?

Posted by: Augustus Caesar | Nov 13 2022 18:34 utc | 70

I would point out the obvious here, that a confident and determined military personnel might have been less willing to leave the battlefield.

Posted by: Constantine | Nov 13 2022 15:06 utc | 12

Have you ever served months on the battlefield? If not, I'd suggest you wind your neck in.

Posted by: Gt Stroller | Nov 13 2022 18:34 utc | 71

@Constantine 27

It wasn't just an issue with "early performance" by the Allied aggressors, who made WW II inevitable at Versailles, collapsed the Weimar Republic with reparations, instigated WW II by collapsing the talks intended to alleviate the lot of German speaking regions of Poland, forced the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact on Russia by rejecting an offered stabilizing Russian alliance, and used disinformation to provoke "Operation Barbarossa" and the Soviet response. The egregious war crimes of the Allies, which included not only the above, but the bombing of civilians, destruction of civil infrastructure, use of WMDs, industrial-scale, post-surrender, murder of Axis soldiers, ethnic cleansing of German speaking Europeans and adoption of German and Japanese biowarfare research during and after the war are not criticized, indeed, they are in danger of being swept aside by the sands of time given that discussion of them is not permitted.

Posted by: Hermit | Nov 13 2022 18:35 utc | 72

Aslangeo | Nov 13 2022 17:34 utc | 54

Your comment nails in just a few words what I have been looking at. Thanks for posting. Have saved your comment.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 13 2022 18:42 utc | 73

"Russia is objectively performing flawlessly on the battlefield. "

This is very funny.

Posted by: Fnord73 | Nov 13 2022 18:48 utc | 74

Posted by: Jen | Nov 13 2022 18:41 utc | 76

Nonsense Jen. January hasn't arrived, yet. It is quite clear that Russia intends to go on the offensive early in the new year. Their current defensive position is quite strong, and they certainly have the firepower to support a major offensive. The US may try to freeze the conflict, but NATO countries and the Ukraine are the most likely to freeze

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Nov 13 2022 18:49 utc | 75


On top of that,

US expects Ukrainian conflict to stall during winter – NYT

That is also one reason why Ukraine put up an offensive past months until now before the winter is coming.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 13 2022 18:58 utc | 76

OdessaConnected | Nov 13 2022 16:19 utc | 30

US UK learnt their lesson in Syria when Russia began separating the Syrian militia's from the terrorist groups. Many Russian reconciliation officers lost their lives going in to negotiate with the militia's but it paid dividends. The Militias would stand aside while the terrorists where destroyed. US UK have ensured this cannot happen in Ukraine, dispersing nazi's amongst the regular units plus the nazi punisher units.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 13 2022 18:59 utc | 77

Jen @76

It may be a mistake to trust conclusions one arrives at while submerged in a torrent of FUD. Why not wait until we see what Russia does with their recent partial mobilization before we start writing obituaries for multipolarity?

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 13 2022 19:04 utc | 78

Kherson this, Kherson that. Why can’t anyone on this site understand that Russia can knock out all the electricity, water and heat in one day. Game over. They hold the trump card. Why so much time arguing and typing?

Posted by: Kurt | Nov 13 2022 19:06 utc | 79

@ Augustus Caesar | Nov 13 2022 18:34 utc | 73

If Russia wants to keep its prestige and be seen as a superpower, it needs to get serious and treat this as a war.

I can imagine what people expected from Russia, and we all wanted to see a flash-bang show with weird but fancy weapons doing all kind of stuff and also all that quick, rocking and swinging.

But Russia does it slow, somehow unsexy and in a very restrained manner.

I see nothing wrong with it, but indeed it did set some civilised moral standard of not flattening Ukraine, killing millions and making war as it is usually expected to be done by US/NATO.

One can look at it this way – Russia managed to defend and protect a pretty big South-Eastern chunk of land. And it achieved that on the cheap, not using too much of its most modern equipment, not using a good deal of manpower despite the logistical, intel and other setbacks.
It has corrected most of those baby steps and gained a lot of knowledge about NATO's EW, SIGINT, comms, weapons and such. Every day passing by, it is more and more combat ready.
NATO/US forces are not. Ukrainians are less and less being a real battlefield factor.

I still believe Russia didn't shift into the high gear as yet.

So, I see them taking the war very seriously, but they have the methods that we are not used to and also a presentation that is just not appealing to our Hollywood trained brains.
Also, we are probably receiving just 1/4 of the real picture of what is going on.

I think we will see pretty much expected and even better show if there will be escalation with and against NATO/US.

Posted by: whirlX | Nov 13 2022 19:08 utc | 80

#57 - I noticed a few too. Some of the usual ones who used to post more often seem to have lost power or only have intermittent power or they only post on certain topics.
In terms of modernized armaments, there was chatter on Intel Slava Z about their larger TOS thermobaric flamethrowers being sent along with urban warfare terminator BMPs. The other videos show more powerful kamikaze drones being developed and alluded to some Chinese UAVs with five or more missiles on each wing.
I read as well that Russia may be using their stealth fighters. I watched another video of anti-tank, anti-personnel armaments dropped from planes that automatically fire when they detect vibrations on a certain frequency.

Posted by: Arcticman | Nov 13 2022 19:11 utc | 81

Posted by: Jen | Nov 13 2022 18:54 utc | 80

The initial offensive won't likely be in Kherson, Jen.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Nov 13 2022 19:13 utc | 82

james | Nov 13 2022 16:47 utc | 34

Thanks for reposting that. Sometimes after studying the trees then standing back to look at the shape of the forest, the description of the forest can be greatly simplified.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 13 2022 19:14 utc | 83

Not any sort of expert but some speculation anyway..
This article suggests that Industrial inflation (increase in prices paid by producers for raw material and services) in the Euro-Area are increasing by about 40% year on year.
These sort of increases typically feed into consumer inflation (now running at about 11% in EU) with a 3-6 month lag maybe resulting in above 20% inflation?
In which case should we be expecting several changes of EU governments (maybe a few Place de la Concorde moments ) once citizens realise how they have been betrayed by their current leaders for the benefit of the USA?

Posted by: Iain | Nov 13 2022 19:14 utc | 84

EU price caps on Russian oil start in a couple of weeks which should lead to supply shortages and price spikes. Feb is when refined fuel becomes subject to EU sanctions do shortages of diesel should be accentuated

Weather is turning colder

UK faces huge tax increases and spending cuts this week. Things will become increasingly unstable

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Nov 13 2022 19:16 utc | 85

FVK @ 51 / circumspect @ 61

It certainly looks like failure... Many of us felt that Russia's military was a powerful unstoppable force on that front but we were wrong. The Russian military appears to have many gaps that need to be filled. My question is does NATO have the stomach to move beyond a proxy war and move into direct conflict? This buys Russia time to perfect a military that is lacking in various aspects.

The USA and NATO spent the last eight years building Stalin's army in Ukraine while the Russians spent from 1997 to last February building Rumsfled's army. The Pentagon for all its post WW2 history of failures this time understood what war in central Europe requires and got it right.

It's starting to appear that the Pentagon didn't just stumble into this war and had a Plan B, C, and D ready. It's uncharacteristic, I know, given past history, but maybe this time we are confusing the sanctions debacle from the political side with stumbling on the Pentagon side. The Pentagon understood this war could be existential to USA hegemony and not just another proxy war the empire could weather if it lost.

I think NATO is ready to implement their predetermined plans B/C/D otherwise called WW3. They are not going to give Russia time to get its shit together and remediate the fact that they prepared the wrong army for the wrong war. Words out of Sullivan and the Pentagon are just that, they believe they have the Russian army on the run and there will be no freeze, truce, or peace over Kherson.

Towards Belarus NATO is working double time bottling up allied forces, they are pressuring Russian soil at Belgorod and Kursk to make Russia divert and waste forces there, Russians are now digging trenches and building earthworks at the north of Crimea "just in case". Russia armies are getting pinned and bottled up to be isolated from each other.

Looks the the Pentagon is still several steps ahead and will see and raise Russia's winter offensive preempting it with their own screwing up Russia's timing with the mobilization and arms procurement forcing it to scramble. Current word seems to be a massive attack on Zaporizhzhya and then a blitz to Melitopol splitting Russian forces in the south and putting the AFU back on the Azov sea. I expect any day HIMARS from Kherson to start hitting Crimea and tragically newly rebuilding Meriupol as a morale destroyer and PR disaster to force regime change.

Sorry, today I'm grim.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 13 2022 19:21 utc | 86

Jen | Nov 13 2022 19:16 utc | 90

I would have to disagree with that. I watched everything Putin in the lead up to the SMO. The body language, what he said. He fully understood the dangers. He has prepared Russia for this over a period of twenty years, fully understanding the nature of the anglo saxons. Due to those preparations, the Russian economy will remain rock solid as the world goes into turmoil.

China has not prepared as Russia has done. We are about to do the same to China as we tried to do to Russia. This will devastate the asia pacific region and set China back a long way. Although China began preparing militarily some years ago, they only started to prepare its economy for what is to come when the west froze/stole Russian assets. When we detonate Taiwan, China will be hit very hard.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 13 2022 19:28 utc | 87

The discussion today, with a couple of exceptions, is of a high quality.
Having no wish to adulterate the discussion I will just make two quick comments.

1/This war, as is the way with wars, particularly in Russia, has revealed deep fissures in Russian society. Some see these as between westernised atheists and patriotic Orthodox. But the real divisions are between classes- the great majority are, even now, muzhik, hard working people who just want peace, security and decent lives. The government however continues to carry the infections that arose when malicious kleptocracy, liberalism, found willing agents in the criminal subculture of Soviet days and cynical careerists from the bureaucracy.
And it is proving difficult to root out the sources of infection. Which is why the Russian Constitution concentrates power at the top- this was exactly what the US wanted when it imposed Yeltsin and the Constitution on Russia in 1994(?).
Russia united can never be defeated but divided into a thieving ruling class and a demoralised, thoroughly disillusioned population, it can never mobilise a tenth of its resources in its own defence, making a certainty a likely but not certain victory.

2/ In this conflict, against NATO which was formed with the sole purpose of dragooning Europe into a re-run of Barbarossa (anyone who buys the 'defensive alliance' nonsense should not leave home without a nurse), Russia is the line of defence for most of the world. The defeat of Russia would mean now what it would have meant in the Cold War- a new predatory wave of neo-colonialism sweeping over the global south. All the gains of the movements for national independence and resistance to imperialism would suddenly find themselves facing a united and ruthless imperialism, distilled to its poisonous essence mobilising military power quite unrestrained by fear of competitors. It would march into battle behind deep skirmishing lines of liberal propaganda of the sort which has been perfected in recent decades. And is the dominant ideology in much of the world.

The most promising aspect of the SMO has been the awakening of the global "South" to the realisation that the imperialists are not their friends, they never have been and can never be. For the world to survive the Empire must be demolished. India, Arabia, Indonesia, Latin America, Africa, the Caribbean have no choice in this matter. To cooperate with the Empire is to consent to their own destruction and the extermination of their people.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 13 2022 19:30 utc | 88

Jen @90: "I said nothing about multipolarity. The existence of China ensures that."

And the existence of China depends upon Russia. If the Empire takes Russia then it is "Game over, man!" for China.

Are you really Jen? I always thought you could see more than one move ahead in the "Great Game".

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 13 2022 19:33 utc | 89

LightYearsFromHome | Nov 13 2022 16:36 utc | 32
Russia …… “could probably train twice the 300K without NATO noticing.”
Categorically no.
The US/NATO surveil Russia 24/7 and have done so for decades.
There are multiple military satellites passing overhead. Every square centimetre of Russia is monitored.
And then there are the high altitude drones, flown 24/7 along the Russian European border 24/7 for years.
Since the SMO, the drone flight path has moved out of Ukraine airspace and remains in NATO skies… but 24/7 there’s a surveillance drone, sometimes several, doing laps from the Baltics to the Black Sea. At 35,000ft they see well into Russia.
Russia seems to have no equivalent.
What’s surveilling in the last 24 hours?
Eastern Europe
-US navy P8 Poseidon AE4EC0
-French Navy Breguet Atlantic FNY5627
-RAF RC135W Rivet Joint RRR7233
-USAF KC-135R 57-1439
-USAF KC-135R 61-0315
-RAF RC-135W Rivet Joint ZZ664 active over #Romania.
Middle East
-US Navy P8 Poseidon AE67B0 patrolling the Strait of Hormuz.
OSINT plane obsessives have tracked Lavrov and Biden from Cambodia to Bali.

The moment the suicide bomber struck. (Safe mode. No gore)
(There have been US planes in the Med off the coast of Turkey for at least a week…..there’s drone footage of the immediate suicide bombing, with dead bodies in the street. Someone knew where to be and when)…

Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 13 2022 19:35 utc | 90

Europe - energy Independence - buy energy freedom fries from Amerika and you will be energy independent. That song "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" comes to mind.

I guess to keep warm this winter, Europeans can all clap hands and sing "Me and Bobby McGee". They have energy freedom.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 13 2022 19:37 utc | 91

Russia needed to launch full out attack, and remove the puppets in Kiev and replace them with a friendly regime

This way a LOT of this bloodshed would have been avoided. So it would have been a more humane option.

Instead we have a delusional leadership in Russia that keeps hoping of a negotiated settlement. NATO has said it wants a regime change in Russia. Forget about mending bridges with the West.

Those bridges are burnt, for a very very long time. And independent Russia and the Anglo rules based order cannot coexist. So Putin should have understood what he was starting. Instead he kept using his lawyer skills to complain to the UN. As if anyone at the UN is not on the neocons payroll.

Posted by: nothing but the trut | Nov 13 2022 19:37 utc | 92

William Gruff | Nov 13 2022 19:33 utc | 95

It was an odd comment for Jen a very short. I should have twigged.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 13 2022 19:45 utc | 93

I have been reading US war plans for some years.
I noted that the plans were to fight both Russia and China "over there" using "Let's you and him fight" tactics.
They planned on keeping the Russia fight in Europe (not just Ukraine but Poland) and the China fight in the Pacific.
The plans included using European deaths to fight Russia and Taiwanese, South Korean, Japanese and Australian deaths to fight China.
Ha! I said. No way, I said. Putin announced some years back that homie wasn't going to play that game no more.
No way Russia was going to lose 27 million people again. This time he threatened to take it to the source. But of course that leads to the extinction of much of life on this planet, so decent people might be a tad hesitant. I can't picture Putin, for instance, punching a woman in the face to "teach her a lesson", no matter how hysterical she might be.
But the Empire started this war in Ukraine and so far it is confined to Ukraine. Putin told us in his Feb. statement that Russians consider Ukrainians to be family. The blood-thirsty Americans who keep screaming "Why doesn't Russia just destroy Ukraine and kill everyone in it and why didn't they do it last March" don't seem to understand that.
The evil ghoulish criminals that run the US are gleeful that so far their plan in Europe is working, so they are ramping up the China fight.
China also seems reluctant to destroy the planet to fight the Empire.
Meanwhile though, the petrodollar is going down. Is that enough to stop the Empire or will they take the world down with them?
I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Posted by: wagelaborer | Nov 13 2022 19:51 utc | 94

@Augustus Caesar 73

Russia did not "invade[ing] with too few troops". Russia failed to deter a UK/US inspired and funded preparatory attack on the Russian speaking regions of Ukraine prior to a massive invasion by NATO equipped Ukrainian forces. To counter this, Russia recognized the declaration of independence by the LPR and DPR, entered an Article 51 local defensive alliance and provided limited personnel and equipment to prevent these invasion and achieve limited, enumerated goals, demilitarizing and denazifying Ukraine and preventing the positioning of NATO forces on Russia's borders.

While, as Putin said, "we have not even started yet", blatant NATO involvement in attacks on Russia have compelled expansion of these goals. Russia is now preparing to start. This takes time, but by the time Russia is ready, the ground in Ukraine will be frozen solid enough to support Russian movements, Europe will be experiencing an economic disaster, the West will be in an energy crisis, the US government will be even more partisan-paralyzed, the petro-dollar and reserve dollar on the rocks. Russia will have retrained their armies and stockpiled the needed materiels and the Russian economy wii be on a sufficient war production basis to sustain a limited war for as long as necessary.

Russian reserves (militarily trained people of military age) amount to some 24 to 26 million. Against this, Europe and the US have under 3.5 million reserves. This is why, since the 1960s, US plans to "defend" Europe from a Soviet invasion entailed using nuclear weapons on Europe to prevent Soviet acquisition of European technology, resources and production capacity before a long range war to degrade Soviet capacity. Today, not only does Russia maintain a personnel advantage, it has state of the art aircraft, tanks, missile defensive systems and hypersonic missiles that actually work, manufactured in well distributed plants beyond range of European and American attacks. Europe and the USA have nothing comparable. This explains why, since 2018, American military and research groups have been warning that the US would lose any regional conflict with Russia or China (let alone both) and advocated for provocations intended to slow the development and degrade the effectiveness of these perceived opponents.

It needs to be recognized that without the use of nuclear weapons by opposing forces, which would most likely result in the extinction of most extant life including human, Russia can do whatever it pleases in Europe over time and nobody can prevent them. So maybe making friends with Russia makes more sense than hanging out with the collapsing US hegemony, which seems to have decided that as long as the last person to die and join the so-called "Jesus" (not a Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic name at the time) in their imaginary "heaven" is an American, that they will have "won".

Posted by: Hermit | Nov 13 2022 19:57 utc | 95

bevin | Nov 13 2022 19:30 utc | 94

That description of the factions within Russia may be close to the mark but that ia what Russia is and always has been. The land of Rasputin's and Putin's, "I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key".

Sit back with some popcorn while yo can. We will go the way of Napoleon and Hitler.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 13 2022 19:57 utc | 96

For those who want to monitor the attrition of American, Western, and other mercenaries who have been awarded the prestigious Darwin Award for fighting in Ukraine:


There are also reports of mercenaries from Japan, Taiwan, and Portugal, who have been recently killed in action:

Death of Japenese Mercenary Debunks Claims of No Neo-Nazis in Ukraine

Posted by: ak74 | Nov 13 2022 19:59 utc | 97

two dimensional, incoherent, grotesque, antisemitic hate rag

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 13 2022 17:19 utc | 48

I still haven't understood what "antisemitic" is supposed to imply. The Palestinians and other arabs (among many others) are semites. Khazars, for example, aren't. Yet people use this idiotic word as a weapon whenever someone tries to discuss any of the horrific crimes of either Israel or of some inhuman criminal identifying as a jew (of which there are many, usually not semites).

As for "incoherent", didn't you notice there are different people with different opinions here?

Yes, the world is grotesque. Thank heavens for Russia, India and Iran and for little pockets like MoA.

Posted by: Jusses | Nov 13 2022 20:03 utc | 98

William Gruff @ 95:

You are right, there is a troll from Comment 76 on using my name "Jen". Everything in that comment goes against what I believe.

Blue Dotterel, Peter AU 1 and others who have corresponded with the troll before my reply to William Gruff @ 95, please take note: I do not presume to know what Russia's political and military elites are thinking or planning, and I make no presumptions about Russia's internal domestic policies or the Kremlin's relations with the Russian public. I would never call the Russian public "apathetic" or make sweeping statements about Putin "rolling the dice".

I certainly make no comments that agree with or support whatever Zanon says. I gave up debating with Zanon ages ago as a waste of time and energy.

It is only 7am where I am and I am just waking up slowly!

Posted by: Jen | Nov 13 2022 20:08 utc | 99

Melaleuca | Nov 13 2022 19:35 utc | 96
but 21 of 28 of those planes don't even work!

on the one hand...on the other hand...
everything i see america touching from my lower end of the food pyramid looks like an ever increasing pile of malfunctioning, misfunctional plastic crap headed for the landfill in a few weeks.

but maybe we make superspy stuff, airplanes and such? there's part of boeing makes stuff that works? yeah, i suppose. lots of world gov'ts seem to think so. i assume we put stuff on Mars like the NASA pictures seem to indicate.

but why can't we put that knowledge to use making some non-military stuff that works? i mean, clearly the USG has perfected the art of using FB to spy on people. it seems reasonable to assume our bombs work, more or less. some stuff works, for sure. toll booths. xmas lights. lotto machines. NFL stadium roofs. golf clap, America. energy well spent.

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Nov 13 2022 20:12 utc | 100

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