Ukraine - Lights Out, No Water And Soon No Heat
Earlier today the Russian military shut down the Ukrainian electricity network.
Previous attacks had limited the distribution capacity to some 50% of demand. Controlled blackouts over several hours per day allowed to give some electricity for a few hours to most parts of the country. The attack today created a much larger problem. Not only were distribution networks attacked but also so the elements that connect Ukraine's electricity production facilities to the distribution network. All four nuclear power stations of Ukraine with their 15 reactors are now in shutdown mode.
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Kiev along with most other cities of Ukraine no longer has electricity.
Moldavia is likewise effected as it received some 20% of its electricity from Ukraine. When the Ukrainian network shut down the only local thermal power plant shut down too. It is likely that it can be switched on again but that can be a complicate process.
Limited electricity imports from the European system into Ukraine may still be possible but that electricity would only be available in Ukraine's western cities.
Before today's attack the Washington Post reported of the difficulties in repairing the network. As we ad explained before the Russian attacks are hitting the transformers that connect the national 330 kilovolt backbone network. These are hard to replace:
As the scope of damage to Ukraine’s energy systems has come into focus in recent days, Ukrainian and Western officials have begun sounding the alarm but are also realizing they have limited recourse. Ukraine’s Soviet-era power system cannot be fixed quickly or easily. In some of the worst-hit cities, there is little officials can do other than to urge residents to flee — raising the risk of economic collapse in Ukraine and a spillover refugee crisis in neighboring European countries.
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Ukrainian Prime Minister Denys Shmyhal said that about half of the country’s energy infrastructure was “out of order” following the bombardment.
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For weeks, Russian missiles have targeted key components of Ukraine’s electrical transmission system, knocking out vital transformers without which it is impossible to supply power to households, businesses, government offices, schools, hospitals and other critical facilities.During a briefing for reporters on Tuesday, Volodymyr Kudrytskyi, the head of Ukrenergo, the state-run power grid operator, called the damage to the power system “colossal.”
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Russians, he said, were mainly targeting substations, nodes on the electrical grid where the current is redirected from power stations. The main components of these substations are autotransformers — “high-tech and high-cost equipment” that is difficult to replace.
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A list of “urgent needs” from DTEK, the country’s largest private energy company, circulating in Washington, lists dozens of transformers along with circuit breakers, bushings and transformer oil.
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But it is the autotransformers — the “heart” of the substations, in the words of Kudrytskyi — that are at the top of the Ukrainians’ list of needs and the key to keeping the country’s electrical grid functioning.The Ukrainians have tried to buy up every autotransformer they can find, going as far as South Korea to purchase them, but they still need to place orders for more to be built.
“We try to collect everything around the world that they have now, and order more,” said Olena Zerkal, an adviser to Ukraine’s Energy Ministry.
Any attempts to repair the network are useless as long as Russia continues to attack it.
To stop these attacks requires a political solution. Ukraine will have to give up and find some agreement with Russia.
Russia also attacked some of the natural gas sources Ukraine has:
Russia last week broadened its targets. Oleksiy Chernyshov, chief executive of Ukraine’s state energy company Naftogaz, said in an interview that a “massive rocket attack” hit 10 gas production facilities in the Kharkiv and Poltava regions, including Shebelinka, one the largest production and drilling areas.“Of course, we will do our best now to recover, but this will take time and resources and material,” Chernyshov said. “Time is of the essence,” he added. “Because winter is now.”
The targeting of the gas supply was a critical development, said Victoria Voytsitska, a former member of parliament now working with civil society groups on getting Ukraine the equipment it needs. If Moscow takes out the gas system, she said, cities and villages across the country could become “uninhabitable.”
The Russian gas provider Gazprom has announced that it will reduce the transport of gas through Ukraine to European customers as the Ukraine is stealing from it:
Gazprom says that it has noticed some of the gas intended for Moldova under a contract with the local gas firm is being diverted by Ukraine. If the imbalance in gas transit continues, Gazprom will start reducing gas flows via Ukraine on the morning of November 28, the Russian gas giant said today, as carried by Russian news agency TASS.
Without electricity there is no water flowing in the water distribution systems of the cities. Without water toilets can not be used. Public hygiene will suffer. The internet in Ukraine is also down.
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A country that is becoming 'uninhabitable' has little chance to wage and win a war. When there is no transport, no electricity, no heat and no communication everything becomes incredibly difficult.
The refugee stream all this will cause will increase pressure on Europe to push Ukraine into negotiating for peace with Russia. Tough conditions will be applied but there is no other way out of this mess.
Throughout the last weeks Ukrainian attacks on the frontline have been remarkably ineffective. There is no longer any coordination of larger formations. The units attacking now are mostly only company size or even smaller. A 12 minute video that showed drone footage of such an attack was published yesterday:
What's the media hiding? @narrative_hole - 11:20 UTC · Nov 23, 2022I can’t believe I missed this one today, the editing is unbelievable.
A 12 minute clip of Ukrainians conducting what was sadly a suicide attack on Russian trenches
... just to be pummeled by Su-25’s, infantry, heavy mortars, a tank, MLRS and finished with an Su-34 bombing run.
video
Sitting on top of an armored infantry vehicle some 20 Ukrainian soldiers drive up to a fortified area and enter the first empty row of trenches. From there they try to attack the second row of trenches that is held by a handful of Russian soldiers.
The Ukrainian troops seem to be fairly well equipped with helmets and armor vests. But they have no support.
The Russian infantry fights back. It is supported by well targeted mortar fire, artillery, tank and air attacks. The Russians have drones up in the air that can see the whole scene. The Ukrainian units have nothing but their rifles and a few hand grenades. After the attacking platoon is destroyed the Russian artillery attacks and destroys the industrial area from where they had been coming. The whole operation ends up as a complete disaster. All Ukrainian troops involved seem to be dead. The Russian side seems to have had no or only few casualties.
What's the media hiding? @narrative_hole - 1:04 AM · Nov 23, 2022This battle took place some time ago, but it’s still incredible to watch now that they made the concise edit.
If we consider that such attacks happen by the dozens every week, the Russian MoD estimates of Ukrainian daily losses aren’t that farfetched.
There are several such attacks per day and only very few are successful.
From today's clobber list:
In Donetsk direction, units of Russian army continued their intense operation. More than 60 Ukrainian servicemen and five armoured fighting vehicles have been eliminated.
In South Donetsk direction, artillery fire and decisive actions by Russian troops have repulsed an attack by the AFU with up to a company's tactical group forces towards Pavlovka.In addition, as a result of a pre-emptive fire attack, enemy reserves advancing from Ugledar have been destroyed.
A sabotage and reconnaissance group of the AFU has been destroyed near Novodarovka (Zaporozhye region).
The enemy's losses amounted to more than 40 Ukrainian servicemen killed and wounded, three armoured vehicles, a MT-LB and four pick-up trucks.
In Kupyansk direction, an attempt to launch an attack by an AFU mechanised infantry company near Novosyolovskoye (Lugansk People's Republic) has been thwarted by artillery fire and heavy flamethrower systems.
As a result of Russian artillery fire more than 30 Ukrainian servicemen, two motor vehicles and one mortar have been destroyed.
In Krasniy Liman direction, an attempt to move the AFU company tactical group to attack the Chervonopopvka (Lugansk People's Republic) has been disrupted by pre-emptive fire.
Up to 20 Ukrainian servicemen, three mortar crews and two motor vehicles have been eliminated.
Operational-Tactical and Army Aviation, Missile Troops and Artillery have neutralised the AFU 128th Mountain Assault Brigade's command post deployed near Volnyansk (Zaporozhye region), as well as 72 artillery units at their firing positions, manpower and hardware in 144 areas.
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That are at least 150 dead Ukrainian soldiers just there.
I do not understand hwy the Ukrainian command is still ordering such senseless attacks. Militarily it should have long gone into defensive mode. It would save Ukrainian lives and would make it more costly for the Russians to attack.
The European parliament, which has no serious legislative function, voted today for a non-binding resolution that declared Russia to be a 'state sponsor of terrorism'. Some Russian's found that outrageous. A few hours later the Parliament was hit by a 'sophisticated' cyber attack:
The European Parliament website was affected by a hacking attack, officials said on Wednesday.Parliament President Roberta Metsola said it was a "sophisticated attack" and that a pro-Kremlin group had claimed responsibility.
She noted that the attack followed the EU lawmakers' vote to name Russia a "state sponsor" of terrorism over its war in Ukraine.
"My response is: Slava Ukraini (Glory to Ukraine)," Metsola said.
That irrelevant Maltese conservative still has a lot to learn.
Posted by b on November 23, 2022 at 16:56 UTC | Permalink
next page »"A country that is becoming 'uninhabitable' has little chance to wage and win a war."
Unless that country is a NATO proxy and the fighting can be continued with the help of 'mercenaries'.
"Limited electricity imports from the European system into Ukraine may still be possible but that electricity would only be available in Ukraine's western cities."
Oh well, that's enough, because what is referred to as 'Ukraine' is actually 'West Ukraine' and it seems that the people in West Ukraine do not give a fig about East Ukraine, except perhaps for its resources.
They can keep going, because they're so feisty, folksy and flexible, they're super-inventive and creative, and have a great sense of humour (especially the neonaughties). They're like Asterix and Obelix. They're the best of all western peoples, which are the best in the world.
Slava Ukraini, yay!
Posted by: Neven Acropolis | Nov 23 2022 17:07 utc | 2
I'm reading insubstantial reports of nine tu-95 bombers having taken off from Russia to carry out strikes in Ukraine.
If true this would mean Russia is now confident enough in its air superiority and in the poverty of the Ukrainian air defense to begin engaging it's heavy air power.
The prospect of carpet bombing suggests a major turning point in the SMO is very near ...
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 23 2022 17:14 utc | 3
Hear breaking to think how painful and difficult the lives of the young, the old, the needy has become compliments of USA and our ass licking EU and the rest!
What business do we Americans have to tell rest of the world how to conduct their country's business when our American cities and towns are filled with homelessness, drugs, gangs, violence and almost a complete failure of our entire government? Globalist's wet dream has come to an end but these genocidal criminal won't let go till they drag rest of the world into a large scale war. God help the civilians of Ukraine, Russia and all those countries who are directly and indirectly suffering because of none other than the US created havoc on planet earth!
Posted by: Allan Kaplan | Nov 23 2022 17:15 utc | 4
I posted this earlier today but it shows that there are outside forces driving the war in Ukraine.
AZ 🛰🌏🌍🌎@AZgeopolitics
🇪🇺🇬🇧🇺🇦🇷🇺Boris Johnson: "All of Europe wished Ukraine to fall quickly.I couldn't support that"
https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/status/1595324439599906817
Video in Tweet.
Posted by: Down South | Nov 23 2022 17:16 utc | 5
Significant Ukraine internet outages as reported by NetBlocks: https://twitter.com/netblocks/status/1595434272164577280
Posted by: james | Nov 23 2022 17:07 utc | 1
It is going to be an interesting experiment, seeing what happens when you pull the plug and leave it unplugged.
I do remember the gas lines from the 70s, and it was not pretty.
Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 23 2022 17:21 utc | 7
I am reading that Germany is sending its Patriot missiles to Poland....Hmmm
Now that Ukraine is going down for the count, I think that Poland is next up on Russia's agenda, correct? (james, go read about returning NATO to 1997 lines)....what is the shortest distance to Poland from Russia? through Ukraine or do they use other forces?
The SMO continues
Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 23 2022 17:25 utc | 8
Interesting. As always, with so much propaganda and no real journalists with investigative resources left, none of us can really know what's going on. But here are some random thoughts.
Indeed, if Russia can get past a threshold then Ukraine might unravel as an industrial society. On the one hand, there might be a sort of diminishing returns to the Russian strikes: the big fat easy targets have been hit, the next targets will be smaller and more spread out. On the other hand, the Ukrainians might be running out of spare parts and reserve capacity. And many shut-down power plants can't be restarted without electricity from other large power plants. And maybe all those cheap Iranian drones will drain the west of expensive anti-aircraft missiles. We will see.
There can still be a strong Ukrainian military supplied by the west (the general public be damned), but without the support of local industries it will get get harder and harder to keep it effective.
One also must remember: the Ukrainians/the western elites behind them, are vicious and intelligent and clever. They might come up with something on their own to change the game. How about supplying Ukraine with abundant long-range missiles, so that infrastructure targets in Crimea and even Russia proper can be hit? Or the latest long-range stealth attack drones? Ramping up (actual) terrorist attacks and partisan activity in occupied Ukraine and spreading that to Russia proper? A false flag event to bring Poland and NATO in general into the war? (The west skipped the latest possible causus belli, but they might not skip the next one). One thing is certain: the western elites will not accept defeat, and there is a lot else they can do that the Russians won't like.
Posted by: TG | Nov 23 2022 17:37 utc | 9
psychohistorian @8
Or Germany is slyly trolling Ukraine, by sending Poland Patriot systems for defense against Ukrainian tail-wagging-the-dog attacks.
Posted by: Paul Damascene | Nov 23 2022 17:41 utc | 10
As noted on previous thread, front page of today's dead tree NYT says Ukraine is winning and winning big. Russia is down for the count and collapsing.
No one in Washington is even imagining serious negotiation. Ceding Crimea would be ten times more than they would stomach. US and NATO are fighting until the last Ukrainian and there is nothing to stop them.
Russia is in position to dictate terms. Russia was in position to dictate terms on February 24. This blackout could have been performed then. They tried to be nice. Can't argue with a suicide cult.
Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 23 2022 17:41 utc | 11
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 23 2022 17:14 utc | 3
The Tu-95s have been used in all the infrastructure attacks. They fire a lot of the missiles but do so from inside Russia.
Posted by: Lex | Nov 23 2022 17:43 utc | 12
It's Vietnam all over again. Will we have a repeat of the secret Laotian and Cambodian saturation bombing? Will we again "bomb them back to the Stone Age"? Incredible to think Nixon isn't around, driving this from the shadows.
It appears that the strategy is to make Ukraine an unlivable mess, hence causing internal strife and mass immigration into Europe. ... Europe is not prepared for another human wave as it can hardly serve its own population now.
It will be interesting to see how the power outages will effect the Ukrainian forces, and if it will cause them to fold.
Posted by: Mummer | Nov 23 2022 17:47 utc | 14
This sucks for the rank and file people who want no part of the Nazi Euromaidan or Ukraine's foolish leaders who could pick up a phone and make a cease fire happen almost immediately. The two things I am waiting for are 1) the exodus to Europe and Russia and 2) the Polish "peacekeepers" walking into what Stalin stole in 1945.
Posted by: Peter Kurten | Nov 23 2022 17:50 utc | 15
Were the Russians to listen to me, the 8 diesel locomotives in the Ukie
system would be next, something else the West could not replace in any reasonable time frame.
Posted by: SwissArmyMan | Nov 23 2022 17:53 utc | 16
Posted by: D | Nov 23 2022 17:46 utc | 13
No that's what the dirty yanks usually do.Here we are talking of surgical remotion of infrastructures.
Posted by: LuBa | Nov 23 2022 17:54 utc | 17
The bar seems to have almost emptied out with TSIPSO offline
Posted by: Drifter | Nov 23 2022 17:57 utc | 18
I seem to recall saying war is brutal back in February as most assumed NATO would fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. Not soon after the SMO began, I noted that WW2 would have ended much sooner had the allies focused their bombing campaign on Germany's oil/fuel sources. We now see Russia's General Staff act on that critical point. It must be noted that making Ukraine energyless is the easiest road to denazification without killing them all. Diehards will find remaining in Ukraine vastly more difficult without power, which is something most people have grown accustomed to. Russia has effectively done what the Outlaw US Empire does in a more humane manner--reintroduce Ukraine to the Stone Age. We'll soon discover how welcoming neighboring nations are to refuge neo-Nazi streams and how willing Ukraine's Nazi regime is in allowing them to leave. At least the columns of refugees won't be strafed by Stukas. With the fuel shortages, I expect many to walkout as there's no other choice.
As we've explored, Zelensky is incapable of negotiating because he isn't the real power in what remains of the Ukrainian government and none of the Nazis who do hold power will because they're as diehard as Hitler. I very much doubt they'll listen to the Outlaw US Empire and tell Biden or his messenger to shut up and send more weapons and mercs. Thus, the only way to save what remains of Ukraine is to destroy the Nazis in power, somewhat repeating what was done in 1945. Fortunately, the hardest portion of Winter has yet to arrive; so, if decapitating the Nazis can be done by the end of December, remaining Ukrainians can be saved from freezing to death.
Sans power and heat, it will now become much easier for Russia to pinpoint those military-related areas still generating both as it did in Syria, and demilitarization will escalate. Militarily, there's no hope for NATO in Ukraine even if NATO forces were to formally enter as they would be just as logistically handicapped as Ukrainian troops are now. NATO has lost but seems unwilling to accept reality.
Great Post B!!
Futility, but the point of proxies is that they are completely dispensable and more than willing to be destroyed. The top gets paid off for the deaths of the bottom.
'Whatever it takes' and 'For as long as it takes' until there is viable Ukrainian State it likely a rare 'truth' within the US narrative.
Posted by: James Cook | Nov 23 2022 18:06 utc | 20
Beginning of the end. Stick a fork in Ukraine. Before Poland starts talking too tough they should remember that the UK and France used them to get WWII started and then hung them out to dry. The west is going to collapse and no one is going to shed a tear. New and better systems coming.
Posted by: Watzov | Nov 23 2022 18:08 utc | 21
Opps
Posted by: James Cook | Nov 23 2022 18:06 utc | 20
Whatever it takes' and 'For as long as it takes' until there is NO viable Ukrainian State it IS likely a rare 'truth' within the US narrative.
Posted by: James Cook | Nov 23 2022 18:08 utc | 22
"I do not understand hwy the Ukrainian command is still ordering such senseless attacks. Militarily it should have long gone into defensive mode. It would save Ukrainian lives and would make it more costly for the Russians to attack".
"b"
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Very unfortunately there could be a real and brutal reason that they are still ordering those attacks. "selective depopulation". You could also call this "ethnic cleansing" or any number of other terms.
A comment by Aslangeo;
I did some basic analysis on the UKR Casualty figures I cross posted from another forum
That post listed 101,431 KIA - excluded MIA (probably killed) etc - a truly horrific loss - figures from Kiev City, Kherson oblast and Chernigov Oblast were missing from the map
Using this number and dividing by the 35 Million population of government controlled Ukraine we get a fatality rate of 2.88 per 1000
There is a pretty unusual distribution - the hardest hit areas were Poltava (12,56 per thousand 2021 population) and Transcarpathia - 11.25 per 1000) Zhytomyr (8.31) , Dnepropetrovsk(5.35) and Vinnitsa (5.11) were also hit hard
Sumy, Cherkassy, Nikolayev and Odessa all lost less that 0.7 per 1000 population
Posted by: Aslangeo | Nov 21 2022 17:33 utc | 285
In an earlier post he linked a map of losses by Oblast. Once overlaid with a map of the Russian-Ukrainian speaking areas, it is clear that the majority of losses have been to those inhabited by mainly Russian speakers. (I can't find the original link, sorry).
Transcarpathia is the key indicator, as the "Territorials" (Essentially "home-guard") were massively sent to the front. Oblasts around Kiev and Lvov were among the lowest.
Commanders were regularly noted as having abandoned their "forces" without the basics to fight.
SOMEBODY has been selectively sending only certain groups during the 8 mobilizations to the front. The other representatives of "Ukraine" from more western areas have either migrated or been taken on as "reserves" - or something (Elites and Azovs spring to mind). Of course, they may have sent the weakest due only to their habiting a certain oblast and not necessarily by language spoken.
In Kherson, which has now been evacuated (where the new inhabitants apparently arrived by train?), we are told that the original citizens have been "mobilized".
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There have been some large amounts of "mothers" and other relatives asking where their loved ones are. Do these manifestations correspond to the most hit Oblasts? (I think I read 310'000 but may be mistaken)
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I can understand the Russians attitude about cutting the electricity.
All those with Teslas and money have already left. Those in "safer Oblasts" will be encouraged to leave. Those who are beeing used as cannon fodder, should use the darkness to go.
Leave the Azov, mercenaries and back-shooters to keep vigil in the dark, all alone for once.
@ oldhippie 11
The London nest of spies gives free housing and generous salaries to some of worst criminal minds around the world , attracted to the West's criminal colonial wars.
This is a symbiotic relationship, attracting the most evil politics to the lure of Western money.
The West is not interested in suicide, nor are its collection of poisonous spiders, frogs, snakes. This is a combination of poisinous politics and Western means of implementation.
People think of the West as a common set of values, but forget that London is a university of terror through its nest of spies.
Russia has been lured into first policing and now knocking out Ukrainian life. This is dirty politics well beyond the level of Western comprehension or experience. This is street fighting from Iraq or Africa.
London owns the tools to win politically however dumb London might be themselves.
President Putin has mocked the West and maybe forgotten the Rottweilers in the Battersea dog kennels.
Suicide is not on the agenda for the Western mafia pussies. Think on the level of African or Turkish or Israeli genocide.
These are the levels of evil Britain keeps fed and watered in its kennels.
Posted by: Giyane | Nov 23 2022 18:16 utc | 24
"" No one in Washington is even imagining serious negotiation. ""
Washington DC is undergoing the process of 'Analysis Paralysis'. ... They have no way out of this mess. So, they are simply 'marking time' hoping that something will bail them out. But, nothing will help.
America cannot enter this war because it is collapsing everyday. People cannot go to a bar, or a Walmart, walk down a city street, or students to school without the threat of being shot. Prices are going up faster than the media can report their rise. The Pentagon is over-funded but still has critical shortages of manpower, ammunition stocks, and equipment. The national debt is starting to be realized in present cash value (hyperinflation). The US State Department has less friends each day. They cannot even hold elections anymore.
I think Russia's strategy is working. ... Turn the screws slowly and let them defeat themselves.
Posted by: Mummer | Nov 23 2022 18:20 utc | 25
Ukraine's attacks, at least in the videos shown are unorganized messes.
Moreover, the planned replacements by EU are insufficient to continue much longer. There were talks of 15000 by EU over 12 months, and lets assume optimistically another 20 000 by other EU countries. So they might train 35000 in 12 months? That won't keep the thing going for too long. Of course this is the "trained", then they have the guys and gals and grandpas and kids kidnapped from the streets, given a week or two training at best and stuck to another "diversionary attack".
Of course also depending on how many mercs join in, I'd expect there will actually be more mercs than Ukrainians.
Posted by: unimperator | Nov 23 2022 18:21 utc | 26
If the information is anything close to being correct. This is a decisive humiliation for the Empire which is based upon public perceptions of its omnipotence and wealth.
Ukraine is on the verge of collapse after having confided its fortunes to the safekeeping of NATO.
The EU is little better placed- the collapse there is coming unless it changes direction.
In the rest of the world, people like Modi and MBS will be wiping their brows with relief: they bet against America and appear to have won.
I can see no way out of this for the US-NATO alliance which is not humiliating.
And all the media propaganda cannot change that.
You can hear the tectonic plates moving. After five centuries we are privileged to have seen the change.
Posted by: bevin | Nov 23 2022 18:22 utc | 27
Posted by: bevin | Nov 23 2022 18:22 utc | 27
The hubris and aggressiveness coming out of the empire is inversely correlated to how well they are doing in this war. Considering today's EU parliament stunt, they are doing very, very poorly. There is nothing else left, to do. Now will they keep trying to tripling, quadrupling, quintopling, absolutely! But the law of diminished returns apply, there is nothing that can be done. The major sanction game failed and in fact boomeranged back and cut through their own hand.
Posted by: unimperator | Nov 23 2022 18:31 utc | 28
Hallelujah. Finally the Russians are doing something properly in Ukraine. Its always been said, if you are going to do a job, do it properly, else don't do it at all. The Russians can learn at lot from the original Protestant work ethic in the West, the West got far with it, until the rot set in that is.
Posted by: gT | Nov 23 2022 18:32 utc | 29
The Ukies are fools to trust the US/EU, they are fools to seek some kind of Ukrainian "purity" in language, foods, etc, they are fools to think that they can contest this on the ground themselves. Let's face it, they're just fools. And the biggest fool of all (after the Z-man) "This will be decided on the battlefield" Stoltenburg. Ok Herr Stoltenburg. What happens when you lose on the battlefield? You aren't going to come charging in with what's left of the German, French, Italian, and British armies - they've already depleted their weapons in the black hole of Kiev and remember, the Russians have sharp pointy teeth. You would be unwise to attack a nuclear armed opponent. But you haven't proven to be very wise so far. I don't see any reason to suspect you of growing any new brain cells.
Posted by: Jeff Harrison | Nov 23 2022 18:33 utc | 30
Today is the 7th anniversary of dill's blackout of Crimea - just a coincidence /sarc
A semi relevant old tune, perhaps some of the dill diaspora in Canada can enjoy (not)
Vicki Lawrence "The night the lights went out in Georgia"
https://yandex.ru/video/preview/15845896221374644772
Posted by: Drifter | Nov 23 2022 18:35 utc | 31
something is burning very strongly in Dnepropetrovsk
https://t.me/ZandVchannel/40254
Posted by: Norwegian | Nov 23 2022 18:37 utc | 32
Here's a correction to the title of this blog post:
"Europe- Lights Out, No Water And Soon No Heat"
;-)
Ukraine is the future of Europe.
The Ukraine War is not really about Ukraine, it's about America's assault on the Eurasian supercontinent in general--which will include Europe.
This analysis by Viktor Mikhin provides an damning indictment of what America's malign geopolitical agenda really entails. In terms of Europe's future, he calls it a new Morgenthau Plan:
Background to current US policy in Europe
https://journal-neo.org/2022/11/21/background-to-current-us-policy-in-europe/
To put it in more blunt terms, the Americans will compel Europe to drop her skirt and bend over.
All the while, the Americans whisper “Western values, Western values” in Europe’s ear, as they violently take her from behind.
In many ways, this is merely a case of the American Mafia Don turning on one of his own, as Europe has aided and abetted America's crimes around the world--from its wars of aggression to its murderous economic sanctions/siege warfare against nations like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, and beyond.
Now Europe is going to get a taste of what "defending Western values" really means--up close and personal.
Posted by: ak74 | Nov 23 2022 18:39 utc | 33
I don't understand why Russia is destroying the electrical grid. If you want to draw the west into the conflict, one good way would be to create 40 million Ukrainians streaming into Europe or dying in Ukraine.
All those missiles and drones could have been used on military targets or the trains and tracks that transport troops and supplies as well as bridges.
Posted by: Simon | Nov 23 2022 18:44 utc | 34
As far as Washington is concerned, turning the Ukraine into a de-populated free fire zone is a feature not a bug.
Posted by: Exile | Nov 23 2022 18:49 utc | 35
General Winter has arrived in Ukraine. Now we watch the country die.
The Russians didn't want to do this, but the insanity of the west and the Nazis that run Ukraine gave them no other option.
I hear the fat lady begin to sing.....
Posted by: JustAMaverick | Nov 23 2022 18:56 utc | 36
@ Bemildred | Nov 23 2022 17:21 utc | 7
yes.. i am not sure if ukrainians are allowed to leave to poland or places where they will seek refugee status... challenging times for the ukrainians, especially if they leave their fate in usa-natos hands...
@ psychohistorian | Nov 23 2022 17:25 utc | 8
thanks... yes, i was aware of that, but i don't believe russia will get involved in poland, unless poland does first.. my take.. i am hoping things deescalate here, but it looks like just the opposite will happen..
@ Simon | Nov 23 2022 18:44 utc | 34
ukrainians streaming into europe is all on europe, or more specifically europes masters in the usa.. they might have to stand up to their master if they want to see something change here.. so far none of them seem to have the capacity for that.. and as exile notes - this is a feature, not a bug...
Posted by: james | Nov 23 2022 19:01 utc | 37
"Joe Biden instructs State Department to allocate $400 million for military support to Ukraine - White House"
https://t.me/intelslava/41647
Absurd that american population is OK with these handsouts every other week!
Posted by: Zanon | Nov 23 2022 19:02 utc | 38
@b Many thanks your great efforts
"To stop these attacks requires a political solution. Ukraine will have to give up and find some agreement with Russia.
For those who do not have access to SputnikNews
Bojo's U-turn with a forked tongue can't go all the way:
Johnson Admits 'Sound Economic Reasons' for Wanting Ukraine to Surrender
[..]
Former British PM Boris Johnson has revealed that European leaders hoped for a quick Russian victory in Ukraine.
In a TV interview on Tuesday night with a US channel, Johnson also conceded that there were "sound economic reasons" for Germany wanting Kiev to swiftly agree to a peace deal with Moscow, but that he "couldn't support" it.It was Johnson — backed by Washington — who persuaded Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to break off peace talks with Russia just a month into the conflict, when they were on the verge of a breakthrough, during a visit to Kiev in late March.
But a US military analyst has told Sputnik that Johnson "miscalculated" by encouraging the clash with Russia.
[.]"The Germans, for all sorts of sound economic reasons, really didn’t want it," Johnson told the broadcaster. "I’ll tell you a terrible thing, the German view was at one stage that if it were going to happen, which would be a disaster, it would be better for the whole thing to be over quickly and for Ukraine to fold."[.]
Western MiscalculationScott Bennett, a former US Army psychological warfare officer, told Sputnik that Johnson had always harbored delusions of being another Winston Churchill, Britain's Second World War leader.
"Churchill was a former military commander and diplomat, while Boris Johnson is a clown in search of a circus," he said. [.]"Russia’s special military operation was a necessary defensive move against the growing NATO aggression and Ukrainian proxy army threat," the former officer said, "and this defense operation by Russia was fully justified and indeed absolutely necessary in order to preserve the lives of Russians."
Bennet said Johnson's reliance on accusations, threats and insults against Russian president Vladimir Putin led him to "miscalculate and commit errors in his political judgment, communication strategy and policy agenda."No Will for Peace
Dan Kovalik, adjunct professor of law at the University of Pittsburgh and the author of 'No More War: How the West Violates International Law by Using 'Humanitarian' Intervention to Advance Economic and Strategic Interests,' told Sputnik that there was no country in the West willing to negotiate with Russia.
"The US, which does not want to negotiate with Russia, and is putting pressure on the EU not to do so as well," he said."I think the US wanted this war," Kovalik added. "That's why it did not address Russia's security concerns that could have been easily addressed."
The academic believes the West's aim is simply to "destroy Russia."
"They thought if they could suck Russia into Ukraine, they could then turn around and destroy Russia economically and or militarily, which has not happened," Kovalik said. "And so they want this war to continue and that's why they don't want to negotiate."[.]
Time will tell as winter ages. Scarcity of food, empty stomachs with added frost bitten fingers and toes may trigger another 1381 peasants' revolt.
LINK to Sputnik article failed in preview. Tested elsewhere worked. RT and Sputnik blocked?
Posted by: Likklemore | Nov 23 2022 19:04 utc | 39
Simon
Exactly, Russia have been target electricity sites for months, that did not stop Ukraine.
Time and time again Russia pick the most ineffective targets.
As you say, these missiles, from Russia's perspective, should of course be miltiary, leadership, railways, ammo depots etc.
What these attacks only do is to strengthen ukrainian population.
Posted by: Zanon | Nov 23 2022 19:05 utc | 40
Arch Bungle @ 3
I'm reading insubstantial reports of nine tu-95 bombers having taken off from Russia to carry out strikes in Ukraine.
They are probably being used as air launch missile platforms as has been the routine up to now. All the RF heavy bombers might have been converted as such including the strategic nuke bombers that sometimes fly near the UK and Alaska to wind them up.
CMIW but launching missiles from planes gets them closer to the target, gets them up to supersonic speed faster and eliminates the telltale ballistic arc from a land launch, all these things make them more difficult for AD to deal with.
I think the days of bombers are finished, at least against anything other than a 3rd world country. Next up are going to be drone tanks, after that take your dystopian pick Borg war or Terminator war.
When it's drone vs drone maybe people will lose all interest... hmmm... ok, all drone war won't happen. Too bad the kids would love it.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 23 2022 19:06 utc | 41
@Exile, #35:
Totally agreed with your assessment! For Washington, there are no bugs in wars against Russia or China until the fire zones lapse to Carribean or the East/West coasts of Americas.
Posted by: Oriental Voice | Nov 23 2022 19:09 utc | 42
This is a right move, good move.
When in war you have to be without mercy.
This is not direct killing of civilians, but shall create a wave of refugees to Germany and Europe.
They must pay de price for this war.
So, this is a correct move.
Bring the war closer to EU.
Make them suffer.
Good sign that Putin has given up hope in peaceful resolution.
Ukraine/the West is waging a total war, Russia has to do the same.
Posted by: margot | Nov 23 2022 19:14 utc | 43
@JustAMaverick, #36:
Russia could have done this last February or early March. That they didn't do this was viewed by many a barfly here as being stupid in fighting wars.
I'd rather think that they acted humanely and hope the Ukies would see the lights. But events revealed that they have to ultimately resort to the harsher tactics.
It was when the West started bombing power plants and electric system in Serbia that induced Milosevic to relent.
Posted by: Oriental Voice | Nov 23 2022 19:16 utc | 44
@Zanon, #38:
What do you expect american population to do? March on Washington with pitchforks?
Posted by: Oriental Voice | Nov 23 2022 19:19 utc | 45
Replying To: Arch Bungle | Nov 23 2022 17:14 utc | 3
I'm reading insubstantial reports of nine tu-95 bombers having taken off from Russia to carry out strikes in Ukraine.
If true this would mean Russia is now confident enough in its air superiority and in the poverty of the Ukrainian air defense to begin engaging it's heavy air power.
The prospect of carpet bombing suggests a major turning point in the SMO is very near ...
'insubstantial' - what does that mean? Unsubstantiated?
Cite your sources please
Posted by: Teal | Nov 23 2022 19:24 utc | 46
@Oriental Voice | Nov 23 2022 19:16 utc | 44
"I'd rather think that they acted humanely and hope the Ukies would see the lights."
I confess to being impatient at times but I agree with you. It isn't going to get warmer. Looking back on this thing the way it's played out is Russia has been practically dragged into escalation.
Posted by: chunga | Nov 23 2022 19:24 utc | 47
At least the Ukraine Neo-Nazis have their tattoos to keep them warm. Hard to see them in the dark but that's about what's left for them. Round them up. De-nazifying them would be nice but not really a dependable plan. Siberia might host them.
Posted by: Elmagnostic | Nov 23 2022 19:26 utc | 48
This is absolutely tragic. The US picked a particularly cruel way to depopulate Ukraine for Cargill, et.al. Russia was a very unwilling participant.
It is like the Romans forcing two slave gladiators to fight to the death in the Coliseum, while the Emperor watches with satisfaction.
It sickens me.
Posted by: wagelaborer | Nov 23 2022 19:27 utc | 49
Stonebird | Nov 23 2022 18:13 utc | 23 - "Very unfortunately there could be a real and brutal reason that they are still ordering those attacks. "selective depopulation". You could also call this "ethnic cleansing" or any number of other terms."
You nailed it, Stonebird. Homicidal psychopath ultra-nationalists don't want to die for Ukraine, they want 'undesirables' to die for Ukraine, leaving ultra-nationalists as the surviving ubermenschen. I would guess that consideration is directly related to the way Blissex describes the ethno-cultural groups that make up Ukraine in [Blissex | Nov 21 2022 21:15 utc | 88] from Ukraine - No Way To Peace Without Further War on the 21st. The Ruthenian ethno-cultural group described as:
"...the fanatic fascist nationalists of Bandera and Petliura and Dontsov, I would not call them “ethno-cultural Ukrainians” also because historically they were not part of Ukraine until 1940.But as part of malicious propaganda they took over the name "ukrainian" to make-believe that Ruthenia and its language are the "real Ukraine", and to ethnically and culturally cleanse all the other minorities, including the central-Ukraine malorussian minority, which has been forcibly ruthenized since 2014."
It would be interesting (in the war crimes trials) to see a thorough examination of the ethno-cultural demographics of Ukrainian casualties vs. the population as a whole. I'm very skeptical that the Ukraine 'grab and snatch' conscription was anything but ethnic cleansing lite. We already know it was class-driven: rich kids in Kiev and Lviv party away, while lower-class or rural kids are forced into the meatgrinder. Of course the US would be horrified if this was the case and they couldn't cover it up.
The lessons from history are the same: rabid homicidal ultra-nationalists are a cancer that must be removed. I have a feeling that this aspect of Ukraine will continue to be buried - right up until the point the ultra-nationalists show up in Dnipro (center of Ukraine's Jewish community) and throw their own little Kristallnacht party. The AZOV/ADIAR crew are the most rabid anti-semitic nuts around. 'The west' and Israel will eventually realize what a horrible mistake they made tolerating (and arming) these freaks. It's the Head-chopper Paradox with the predictable penalty for playing stupid for too long.
Re: Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 23 2022 17:14 utc | 3
Carpet bombing
The Tu95MS version operated by the RuAF is a missile carrier rather than a bomber - and has regularly launched KH-101 and KH-102 cruise missiles during the conflict - It will not, and does not need to go anywhere near Ukrainian airspace - unlike the US B52 AFAIK the current Tu 95 has no iron bomb capability
I believe , but I am not fully sure that the Tu-160 is similar
For Iron bombing the Russians would use the Tu-22m, which has been done in Syria, AFAIK only for the Azovstal plant in Ukraine
Posted by: Aslangeo | Nov 23 2022 19:29 utc | 51
The only problem is what to do next.
Ukrainians would not capitulate or negotiate, it is ISIS kind of enemy.
I think that is clear in Kremlin.
But Europeans... The question is how much can they suffer.
Posted by: margot | Nov 23 2022 19:30 utc | 52
What you need to remember is military units move, destroyed command posts can be easily rebuilt, train tracks are hard to destroy with missiles (and easy to repair), ammo depots are spread out and concealed (maybe in residential areas). Ukies still have SAMs so hunting these kinds of targets is risky business.
330kV transformers are big devices that are immobile, in substations shielding from housing, and easy to find (follow the transmission lines) and destroy and incredibly difficult to replace. Long lead times for new ones. Logical target for missiles and drones.
Like hitting Nazi oil systems in WWII this may be a game changer.
Posted by: mtw | Nov 23 2022 19:30 utc | 53
Russia cannot transfer any pain to US or UK, and that is from where the war is orchestrated.
Germany's leader Olaf Scholc seems to be confident, he says, that Russia shall be defeated.
EU elite seems to be trigger happy.
Posted by: margot | Nov 23 2022 19:36 utc | 54
I think the damage to the grid is still kind of limited on purpose. Much like Kutuzov's golden bridge, the goal is for people in Ukraine to leave on their own and just flood the EU with refugees that they may or may not have to deal with.
Posted by: leaf | Nov 23 2022 19:39 utc | 55
China is probably taking notes. Scrap the plans for a risky amphibious assault on Taiwan and just knock out the electric grid?. . .and Taiwan sees it too, which might bring them to the table.
In other news, on the final step of his six-day, three-nation foreign trip, Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin said Wednesday that the world must have rules-based order if it wants international security during a time of heightened conflict. . .here
Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 23 2022 19:40 utc | 56
margot @ 43
They must pay de price for this war.
Rightfully so. It's pretty obvious from Mariupol that the Ukrainians are fighting a scorched earth policy of leaving Russia a wasteland in the Donbas and Dnieper area, an economic millstone round Russia's neck. I'm certain this is a USA fallback calculating that should Ukraine lose Russia will be tide up for a decade rebuilding rather than growing and modernizing their economy, which was also a goal of the sanctions. Russia was growing very well the last couple of years as they started abandoning capital draining neoliberal ideas for self financing after 2014.
What the west gets seriously wrong is that Russia is not tied to foreign capital markets anymore both by design and by sanctions. It's huge and an autarky, Russia will grow the same way post WW2 USA grew by Keynesian monetary policy, recycling surpluses with the booming east, and of course it's own MIC that will be working around the clock for years to come.
Russia's economy should benefit from the rebuilding of eastern Ukraine, the west bled by it's parasitic neoliberal market will be finished off by the war costs and then rebuilding western Ukraine. I don't really know, maybe you can quantitative ease till kingdom come?
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 23 2022 19:41 utc | 57
".. The AZOV/ADIAR crew are the most rabid anti-semitic nuts around. 'The west' and Israel will eventually realize what a horrible mistake they made tolerating (and arming) these freaks..."
[email protected]
That would be the obvious conclusion. But it is wrong. Anti-Semitism is Israel's stock in trade. Without it Zionism shrivels up and disappears. Nothing pleases the Israeli fascists more than being able to warn Jews against anti-semitism and urge them to come to Israel.
The Azov anti-semites are consciously armed by Israel.
Posted by: bevin | Nov 23 2022 19:44 utc | 58
This severity, I would think, has been brought about by the need to terminate as soon as possible the horrors inflicted on the populace of western Ukraine as evidenced by the slaughter of its own civilians, either forced into the front lines, or being rounded up and killed for being pro-Russian once areas are retaken. That, and also the terrible treatment of captured Russian soldiers, whose torture has been gleefully broadcast to the world at large.
This bestiality has to stop.
Posted by: juliania | Nov 23 2022 19:48 utc | 59
. . .from the Kyiv Independent 'small world' department
World condemns Russian deadly strike against Ukraine.Ambassadors of the United States, United Kingdom, and France made statements condemning the Nov. 23 Russian attack on Ukraine. . .here
Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 23 2022 19:50 utc | 60
Oriental voice
They could begin by disproving that they support the warmongering in polls:
From last month: "Three in four Americans say U.S. should support Ukraine "
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/three-four-americans-say-us-should-support-ukraine-despite-russian-threats-2022-10-05/
Posted by: Zanon | Nov 23 2022 19:51 utc | 61
So Ukraine sent air-defense missiles killing civilians again?
Another victim of the work of the Ukrainian air defense. In addition to a house in Kiev, which was hit by a NATO NASMAS air defense system, a house in Vyshgorod was also hit by an anti-aircraft missile. In total, 6 people died as a result of hits on residential buildings. After the murder of two Polish farmers, the Ukrainian air defense returned to the routine practice of killing Ukrainians.https://t.me/intelslava/41661
Photo of ukrainian missile fragment after apartment strike:
https://t.me/intelslava/41653
Posted by: Zanon | Nov 23 2022 19:55 utc | 62
I don't mean to cast aspersions on the Ruthenian Ukrainians. The problem is, of course, rabid ultra-nationalists and right-wing demagogues hiding under the cloak of a Ruthenian Ukrainian identity (or their supporters). Ultra-nationalist political groups never got more than a few percent of the votes, even around Lviv. Yet, when right-wing C14 attacked a Roma camp in Kiev in 2018 on Hitler's birthday, nobody seemed to bat an eye in Ukraine. The event went largely unreported in the west. A wave of copycat anti-Roma violence eventually resulted in Roma deaths. Sorry, but that unfortunate imagery just screams brownshirts and Nazis, and it's hardly going to end with 'just' the Roma. It's as if we never learned a damn thing.
Al Jazeera:
Attacked and abandoned: Ukraine’s forgotten Roma
Any fool could see what's coming a mile away when these guys REALLY go rogue. But the US and Europe will, without fail, claim ignorance and "How could we possibly have known?" Nobody goes to the Hauge for arming and empowering these nuts because that just never happens. A few angry tweets (which will get you banned), and then it's on to the next brainless news cycle. AZOV/ADIAR will slink into the shadows with their caches of Stingers and Javelins, and then we'll have to figure out how to hunt them down.
Careful, US Green Berets and UK special ops guys trained them thoroughly in stay-behind, terroristic guerilla warfare techniques, hoping they would ONLY use them on the evil Russians. Ooops! Good job, guys...
Posted by: PavewayIV | Nov 23 2022 20:02 utc | 63
@Drifter #18:
The bar seems to have almost emptied out with TSIPSO offline
Watch a historically accurate re-enactment of these dramatic events by Russian hobbyist animator Svinka V Obmoroke:
https://t.me/svinkavobmoroke/31
Translation:
Chapter 5. TsIPsO-Svinso [PSYOPS-SWINEOPS]“Yes, I am from Russia.
Our leaders have betrayed us.
We must urgently take to the streets to bring Putin down.
Russia is losing.
We shouldn’t have attacked Ukraine.
I’m a patriot of Russia and only wish it well.”The end.
Posted by: S | Nov 23 2022 20:07 utc | 64
For the current "siege effect" to do what I suggested @19, it will need to continue for weeks to uproot those with enough courage to escape. And it's cold and miserable with temps hovering just above 0c with graupel and sleet being the norm when precipitation falls in the Lvov region, for example. Lvov had a prewar population of just over 700,000; how many remain is unknown. Other unknowns are the status of the food supply and potable water. Sanitation will become an issue. Leningrad dealt with a similar siege for a long time; but how hardy are today's Ukrainians in comparison? Where are refugee camps being built or does such foresight exist?
Yes, those questions and many more. Poland and the Baltics were building fences/walls. What about Romania, Hungary and Slovakia? The Carpathians seem to block movement in their direction leaving Poland as the likely direction for refugees.
I don't understand why Russia is destroying the electrical grid. If you want to draw the west into the conflict, one good way would be to create 40 million Ukrainians streaming into Europe or dying in Ukraine.
I'll explain.... all those who leave cannot be conscripted... at all.... ever....
One important side effect of shutting down the GRID is removal of the population by non-violent means. This significantly reduces the pool of new recruits, and the skilled trades base supporting the war effort.
The goal of destruction of the GRID is immobilization of Ukie armed forces via immobilization of the Ukie rail network.
Besides.... it gives Reuters/BBC something to cry about..
INDY
Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Nov 23 2022 20:09 utc | 66
Stonebird #23
Thank you, interesting information. Watch closely where the western uke refugees end up imo.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 23 2022 20:11 utc | 67
PavewayIV | Nov 23 2022 20:02 utc | 63
2014/2015 top Azov members were put in charge of or placed in high positions in all state security departments. Unelected but controlling security and bureaucracy. I think Anton Geroshenko was a mover and shaker behind this amongst others, all supported by our political masters. Nothing like a bit of democracy and human rights.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 23 2022 20:12 utc | 68
Sometimes I think the only distinctly bourgeois ideology is the myth that a chair force's push-button murder will conquer countries.
Ukraine hasn't been a going concern for years already. It has been propped up by lenient treatment by the IMF in order to fund the war in the east. Nothing changes with this. If the people of Ukraine were really in charge and punishing them would force them to make peace, they would have already. And when some of us say Ukraine is fascist, we mean it and we don't think the people run things, no matter what the election result say. Maintaining a military resistance in a built up area like cities is feasible because of the tactical superiority of the defensive. That hasn't changed either.
What has changed is the fate of the people at large, who are irrelevant to the foreign imperialists and the domestic fascists. I have been thinking for some time now that in some years when the dust settles, there will be exposes about how the fascists have been carrying out atrocities against Jews, gypsies, etc. etc., etc. Now, any Jews who aren't connected to Kolomoyskiy or Zelensky will freeze. The notion this is somehow a negative for the fascists is crazy. (Unless you don't agree that Ukraine is fascist and just say so for propaganda purposes.) As they say, every crisis is an opportunity.
Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 23 2022 20:12 utc | 69
Most media in France & UK are playing down the power cuts. If they did their usual thing of emphasising the catastrophic effects, the public would see the contradiction with the official story of a coming Ukraine victory. I predict they'll continue to ignore it until old people start dying of cold, when the cruelty of Russian airstrikes will become the main story.
The big unknown is how long Ukrainian civilians can keep up the brave face. "We can survive" may one day give way to a rush to the western frontier. It might happen very suddenly indeed, like the French mass panic in 1940 that had millions on the road fleeing the German advance, blocking French army reinforcements from reaching the front. At that point it might come to a very sudden end.
It sounds heartless, given the suffering in Ukraine, but at that point I fear for the psychological health of Western Europe. A year of being constantly lied to by politicians & media will leave scars.
Posted by: geoff chambers | Nov 23 2022 20:16 utc | 70
Absurd that american population is OK with these handsouts every other week!
Posted by: Zanon | Nov 23 2022 19:02 utc | 38
Most are not ok with it. We have no say, and not enough people want to do the hard work to stop it.
Posted by: Michigan Dude | Nov 23 2022 20:18 utc | 71
Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 23 2022 19:50 utc | 60
Hahahaha, Don is still deluded by his favorite fantasy that the US, UK and France are "the World." LMAO - and citing the Kyiv Independent on top of that.
Don, "the World" did not condemn Russia at the beginning of the SMO or now. No, a couple of post-colonial imperialist western nations and their bastard children down under condemned them. That is NOT "the World" and it's looking to be a painful awakening for Western chauvinists like yourself when multipolarity becomes the undeniable norm that can no longer be hidden by foolish American propaganda or the Ministries of Truth.
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Nov 23 2022 20:20 utc | 72
@Zanon, #61:
What you read in MSM on polling results are what TPTB intends for the population to read. There could well be a swell of sentiments in Europe and America against supporting Ukraine to fight on, but MSM would not report on these findings and thus we, the common folk population, wouldn't know. In my interactions with my acquaintances it's about 50-50 for and against US support of the war the way it is being carried out now. But watch TV and reading newspapers, I am told 90+% of US population is solidly behind Ukraine. As long as the democracy is the way it is being manifested in 5Is, Europe, and some of the other vassals of the Empire, it is impossible for an enlightened population to actually influence their governments. In other words, there is actually no democracy anywhere in this world.
Actually, no democracy is not a bad thing. Why would we want average Joe be the ones to lead government developments and progression into the future? In the long run, in any democracy, average Joes will be the most likely ones to win elections because they relate best with the average Joes who vote. Call me a cynic but democracy is the most stupid form of government, in my point of view.
Posted by: Oriental Voice | Nov 23 2022 20:22 utc | 73
@ juliania | Nov 23 2022 19:48 utc | 59
This bestiality has to stop.
I agree, but I also think that it is just starting.
Trying to ban Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine is a first step towards accelerating the tearing up the bonds people there still have.
ISIS style executions and such psychological warfare is speeding things in accelerating the hate.
It is supposed to work on every Russian and on every Ukrainian.
I somehow think that total destruction of Ukraine is starting, and there will be not a bone left for the West/US to chew on.
West/US burned an amazing amount of money, never ever to have any of it back.
It got rid of old weapons stockpiles, with no new ones to come any time soon, sweeten as all their 'help and determination' that is currently thrown down the drain.
Also, I am thinking that maybe taking Ukraine off the grid is accelerating its quick end.
In EU or USA, people will not go on the streets to protest against anything. We are softies, no-conflict seekers, easily afraid, comfort loving, obedient slaves, actually a new sort of sapiens.
In Ukraine everything is still open and possible, and they should go for the change of the people that led them to this disaster.
We all possibly hope that some dark, cold, disconnected and demotivated lifestyle sucks and pushes Ukrainians towards taking the things in their own hands.
Posted by: whirlX | Nov 23 2022 20:26 utc | 74
Stonebird @23 points to 'sorting' of Russian speakers to send them to certain death in the front, while west Ukrainian thugs remain behind - and sometimes killing those front line guys who refuse to 'fight' any more.
There is power in the west.
Germany and wider Europe will have to provide gas for bakeries and for heating to West Ukraine, at least.
Will Russia offer East Ukraine food and heat available in their Donbass oblasts?
Will Germany HAVE to open the last remaining Nordstream pipeline to have enough gas for Germans, refugees, and west Ukrainians?
When Nikolaev and Odessa have their referendum on joining Russia or not, the refugees in the Donbass will be able to vote: those that fled to the West will not...Well, if you want to cultivate extreme national socialists, if you want to torture and kill Russian military, then maybe you deserve your own special place a long way from Russia, and close to the country that spawned your ideology. Let them suffer the consequences of their own obduracy and racism.
Posted by: powerandpeople | Nov 23 2022 20:26 utc | 75
@ TG nr. 9
Yes of course they should all attack Russia! Then we can get WWIII, our masters all want! It will be glorious! We then know Ukraine has been depopulated, now sit down and enjoy! It is our turn now. "How I learned to love the bomb."
Man your comments are utterly stupid, but I am not amazed.
The congregation of stupid people here on this site, is going up!
Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Nov 23 2022 20:28 utc | 76
"Will Germany HAVE to open the last remaining Nordstream pipeline to have enough gas for Germans, refugees, and west Ukrainians?"
After it was said that one pipeline was still intact, I read that Russia had said that pipeline was also not usable.
Posted by: Simon | Nov 23 2022 20:29 utc | 77
I posted this at my VK account but it relevant here. Full list of weapons is at the Big Serge link
Big Serge ☦🇺🇸🇷🇺
@witte_sergei
I pointed this out in one of my earlier articles, but the flow of shells for the 155mm artillery pieces has slowed to a tiny trickle. This is a foundational weapon, and it's not clear how Ukraine will function without it once high intensity combat restarts.
https://twitter.com/witte_sergei
...........
Dr.Snekotron
@snekotron
These packages are getting smaller and smaller.
200 guided artillery rounds
250 SUVs and pickup trucks
200 generators
And it looks like they're running short on 155s and bringing out the 105s.
The cherry on top is that the AA guns they promised are .50 caliber machine guns.
...........
Resident
⚡⚡⚡#Insider information
Our source in the OP said that the President's Office held talks with NATO representatives four times in two weeks/The Pentagon on the need to urgently provide Ukraine with air defense systems. But the West ignores our requests, forcing Zelensky to negotiate with the Kremlin and implement the Sullivan Formula.
.................
Apart from words, Nazi Ukraine and Jewish Zelensky have lost the backing of the Anglo Saxons. Zelensky has a good paying gig while it was going but I suspect he will be going to the promised land in the not too distant future. He has put himself in a position where he will be killed if he negotiates, yet has lost the backing of his Curators. US has been cultivating the Ukraine military commander for the top job so I guess once the change occurs negotiations will commence before Zelensky's body has time to cool.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 23 2022 20:30 utc | 78
@ Russia seeding Crimea?? That will not happen. I guarantee!
Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Nov 23 2022 20:32 utc | 79
"I'll explain.... all those who leave cannot be conscripted... at all.... ever...."
That is assuming that men of fighting age would be allowed to leave. I don't think that would be the case.
Posted by: Simon | Nov 23 2022 20:32 utc | 80
"The goal of destruction of the GRID is immobilization of Ukie armed forces via immobilization of the Ukie rail network"
I would have just blown up the rail network. As it is they have 8 diesel locomotives.
Posted by: Simon | Nov 23 2022 20:35 utc | 81
@unimperator nr 26
Yes when you attack with half a company, no arty, no air, victory is secured, Elensky has said it also!!!!
Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Nov 23 2022 20:38 utc | 82
Den Lille Abe | Nov 23 2022 20:32 utc | 79 "Russia seeding Crimea?? That will not happen. I guarantee!"
I'm sure they will. Nothing to stop them now. Water from the Dneiper is again flowing down the channel, Russia has plenty of farm equipment and seed.
....couldn't resist that opening.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 23 2022 20:38 utc | 83
Simon | Nov 23 2022 20:29 utc | 77
There is likely some damage to the remaining line that will have to be repaired, but as long as seawater does not enter, it will remain repairable.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 23 2022 20:41 utc | 84
karlof1 @ 65
Yes, those questions and many more. Poland and the Baltics were building fences/walls. What about Romania, Hungary and Slovakia? The Carpathians seem to block movement in their direction leaving Poland as the likely direction for refugees.
Very many will go in no direction. Very soon the terrible part will come for those who simply can't leave, those too poor, the frail the old, those who care for them, those with all their life savings in a little roll with a rubber band in ziplock under a floor tile, who don't drive, don't know an other language, have farm animals to keep, those too old to hustle and who presently live month to month tied to their meager pensions.
They will be abandoned to suffer, starve, freeze and die unseen, uncounted, by the tens of thousands like in all wars.
This is not Russia's fault. This will be the apogee of American war crimes. Well, unless The empire prevails then I'm sure there will be room for improvement.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 23 2022 20:44 utc | 85
The only thing that can bring Ukraine to the negotiation table is when Russia makes serious territorial gains - grabbing Slavyansk or Odessa. All this destruction hardly matters.
After the fall of Lisichansk Russia chose the tactic of "grinding": largely defensive fighting that kills a lot of Ukrainians but hardly brings territorial gains. I hear endless stories about how smart that is but I am not convinced. The propaganda value of all those kills is close to zero: Ukraine just hides its losses. That is not possible with territorial losses.
In Syria Russia used very different tactics: surrounding and pushing to surrender or departure were there the main tricks.
Posted by: Wim | Nov 23 2022 20:46 utc | 86
Paveway, I'm familiar with the term Ruthenians but have never researched what area this term covered. Hitler used it in Mein Kampf. Would that be current Galicia oblasts and Volyn or take in areas further east?
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 23 2022 20:50 utc | 87
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 23 2022 20:44 utc | 85
Those who live in or near the countryside may well be OK. They will be able to collect wood for basic heating and have some access to milk and eggs and perhaps some veges. Stronger communities will probably mean that heating and food can be shared.
The city dwellers will however be destitute and very cold.
Now ideally the Mayors/governments of some towns will independently surrender to Russia, which I hope means that food and water and essential heating can be delivered to at least keep the people alive. Those who speak Russian and are able bodies may well be able to seek work in Russia and deliver some money home. Those who choose to move west could be assisted.
Posted by: watcher | Nov 23 2022 20:57 utc | 88
@Peter Kurten #15:
The two things I am waiting for are 1) the exodus to Europe and Russia and 2) the Polish "peacekeepers" walking into what Stalin stole in 1945.
Stalin stole nothing.
As a result of the Treaty of Versailles, Poland was given lands of the Austria-Hungarian Empire and the Russian Empire, but the exact border in the east has not been defined. This led to Poland’s wars with Ukrainians and Lithuanians. After Poland and the Ukrainian’s People Republic signed the 1920 Warsaw Treaty and Polish–Ukrainian forces have occupied Kiev, the Polish–Soviet War resumed. In July 1920, British Foreign Secretary Curzon sent a very reasonable note to the Soviets asking them to stop their advance at what became known as the Curzon Line, lest the Entente support Poland with all their resources; the line separated Polish-dominated areas from Ukrainian- and Belarusian-dominated areas (see map). However, Lenin hoped for a quick victory in Poland, followed by establishment of Polish Soviet state, then revolutions in Germany and other Western European countries, so he said no. After the Soviet defeat near Warsaw in August, the Red Army retreated in chaos and vast territories predominantly populated by Ukrainians and Belorussians fell under Polish rule, formalized in the 1921 Treaty of Riga. Poland then proceeded to carry out an aggressive campaign of forced Polonization, which was one of the reasons for further radicalization of Ukrainian Nationalists—but that is another story. What the USSR took in 1939 was very close to the Curzon Line, with the exception of the Białystok area, which was ceded by the USSR to Poland anyway after WW2.
Summary: after Poland gained its independence, it has occupied territories predominantly populated by Ukrainians and Belorussians and has been erasing their cultural and linguistic identity for 18 years until the Soviet Union has re-united West Belarus with the Belarussian SSR and West Ukraine with the Ukrainian SSR in 1939.
Posted by: S | Nov 23 2022 20:58 utc | 89
@ LightYearsFromHome | Nov 23 2022 20:44 utc | 85
thanks for articulating all that..
@ Wim | Nov 23 2022 20:46 utc | 86
crimea, donetsk and luhansk is a lot of territory to lose... i think you are wrong... this is about usa-uk and friends trying to call the shots and convincing some of the stupidity of all this...
Posted by: james | Nov 23 2022 21:03 utc | 90
Sure, the situation sucks for the average Joe Ukrainian, but let this be an object lesson in how whining about how your government doesn't represent your interests doesn't shield you from the consequences of your government's behavior.
And while you are whining about how helpless you are to face down the Empire of Delusions, remember that countries like Iran and Cuba and Venezuela kicked out brutal dictatorships that were fully backed by that Empire. Think about those people going up against savage dictatorships that killed and tortured for fun; dictatorships with the US Empire giving those dictators all the help it could. Perhaps they could succeed where you don't even try because they are better human beings?
In any case, the Ukrainian people will ultimately have to decide to give up fascism and plot a different course for their society. The sooner they make that choice the sooner the pain stops for them, and what will, without question, expedite that choice is when the US and EU stops pushing the Ukraine back into a fight they have basically already lost.
Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 23 2022 21:05 utc | 91
Oriental Voice @ 45
What do you expect american population to do? March on Washington with pitchforks?
Given their corn pone, Norman Rockwell, Grant Wood iconography and memes I would expect exactly that. Alas.
https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/american-gothic/5QEPm0jCc183Aw?hl=en-GB
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Nov 23 2022 21:07 utc | 92
I can imagine what the rest of Europe will look like with a massive amount of poor Ukrainian refugees, some probably with access to some serious firepower smuggled in, next to the large Muslim and African population that has recently emigrated to Europe.
That aside, this is a serious tragedy for the very young and the very old. I just have to keep going back to the occult death cult that runs western affairs.
Posted by: circumspect | Nov 23 2022 21:10 utc | 93
james | Nov 23 2022 17:07 utc | 1
i'm with you. what a nightmare. but the west didn't care when the same shit happened and is still happening in Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc., now incl Donetsk, et al. and the public won't care until they realize their govt's view them exactly the same as any other pile of trash that's gotten in the way of military bulldozer.
western gov'ts can fight with Russia or they can take care of millions of refugees. any guess which choice will be made? their brood is shelling a nuclear facility and an EU legal warhawk is crowing (tweeting too?), "slava ukraine".
now back to the holiday fakery. triptophane and booze, do your magic. i hear "saving private ryanuska" will be a big favorite this season of joy and giving (apologies on the name thing, the only slavic i know means vodka in English.)
"I weep for the women of Moab" Isaiah XX:XX. what a jew dumbass. should put 'em on a plane to Rwanda or Gitmo.
Posted by: rjb1.5 | Nov 23 2022 21:13 utc | 94
We'll soon discover how welcoming neighboring nations are to refuge neo-Nazi streams
Canada! They'll come here just like the the OUN bandits were welcomed here at the conclusion of WW2.
Though now they got the UCC and Ms. Freeland to welcome them.
Posted by: Drinky Crow | Nov 23 2022 21:16 utc | 95
@ rjb1.5 | Nov 23 2022 21:13 utc | 93
thanks.. the choice will be to continue to try to take russia down - whatever way possible, including having ukraine turn into a hell, which is what it is mostly now.. if past history is any guideline, this is my guess.. there will be no negotiating.. and as has been proven, time and time again - the usa and friends are negotiation incapable..
Posted by: james | Nov 23 2022 21:19 utc | 96
Dr. George W Oprisko | Nov 23 2022 20:09 utc | 66
Russia is destroying Ukraine’s legacy electricity grid. Ukraine cannot replace the equipment being destroyed. It is a horror show and no one should celebrate the suffering that is about to unfold. However...
In the words of American Secretary of State Anthony Blinken this presents a "tremendous opportunity."
The Public Research Institute is an accomplished 501(c)3, non-profit research organization in it's thirty-sixth year, operating world wide.
The Institute's Wind Division designed a family of 4th generation turbines, with rotor efficiencies of 96% and generator efficiencies > 90%, using permanent magnet alternators, to provide improved reliability and output. This family of turbines are rated at 7 m/sec, with nameplate capacities of 250, 600, and 1250 Kwe. They are particularly suited for communities of 100- 20,000 dwellings providing power at $ 0.03 / Kwh at Class 3 sites.
The Institute's Geothermal Division has performed pioneering work in the field of low temperature energy conversion, and developed power cycles for sources between 25oC and 125 oC. The Institute is working with affiliates to organize an Energy Lab for the purpose of improving the efficiencies of these cycles by 20% or more, to improve heat recovery and geothermal systems.
The Institute's Hydro Division has forged relationships with Ossberger and Siemens for delivery of turnkey systems capable of exploiting heads greater than 5 m, at capacities from 1 - 20 Mwe.
The Institute's Solar Division is configuring rooftop, equator tilted, PV arrays with power outputs ranging from 6 - 600 Kwe, using mass produced components, off Grid or Grid-Connected, with or without storage.
If only there was someone on this board that was familiar with this work.
Posted by: Putrius | Nov 23 2022 21:20 utc | 97
In the darkness and the cold, like the return of a creature from a black lagoon, silently and seamlessly he emerges. From the genteel fascism of Konca-Zaspa, he is whistled up, stirs and the faithful old dog of warm Washington, he comes forth in the long shadow of the bitter Ukrainian night. One last task. To end the nightmare. Viktor Andriyovych Yushchenko steps forward. Washington's negotiator.
Posted by: Paul McGrory | Nov 23 2022 21:22 utc | 98
Ben wallace announces uk navy to be upgraded with comical obsolete tech subsonic missiles. Lauded as long range. 115 miles range. So no more need for cannon balls with these brilliant shiny missiles. You read that and go are these guys for real. Long range is 3000 miles not 115 miles.
Posted by: Hankster | Nov 23 2022 21:25 utc | 99
@ Stonebird | Nov 23 2022 18:13 utc | 23
@ PavewayIV | Nov 23 2022 19:28 utc | 50
"selective depopulation" ... "ethnic cleansing" or any number of other terms." SOMEBODY has been selectively sending only certain groups during the 8 mobilizations to the front
Most of all 'plausibly deniable' under cover of the conflict. Also why do the OUN-Nazis continuously fire preciously sparse arty/mbrls rounds & rare SRBMs at civilian targets in former DNR/LPR separatist zones ?
Thirdly, is the above not also of advantage to Empires ultimate objective re GeneralOst Plan MkII ?
The OUN-Nazi control Ukraine & all institutions & power centers, through sheer force of terror, Zelensky is merely a 'by video' hostage ventriloquists dummy, firstly for OUN-Nazis's, lesser so for Empire, awaiting his eventual pre-dertermined fate.
Recall his morose flat response when asked in a live interview, " ... and the AZOV & other National Corps units with links to Nazism ?", "They are, what they are."
Hardly the response of an all powerful, in control, dictatorial El Presidente.
OUN-Banderista's, along with Valery Zaluzhny, the Commander-in-Chief of the AFU, with his silver embossed Swastika wrist bracelet, run Ukraine & all it's resources/assets, & Empire enabled & facilitated it all.
Serious blowback for EU coming, down the line ... yet again. What that also part of the Plan if Mil Ops went pear shaped ?
The comments to this entry are closed.
thanks b...
war is so unfair... i feel especially sorry for the old and really young people of ukraine who are stuck in this.. i believe russia is ramping up the pressure for a political solution, but i don't see anything coming in this regard.. instead this will be turned into another western msm propaganda field day about russia attacking civilian structures and being guilty of ''war crimes''... same tired shit will be wheeled out..
"To stop these attacks requires a political solution. Ukraine will have to give up and find some agreement with Russia."
eventually yes, but when?? i can't see zelenskys puppet masters wanting to even consider it... maybe europe will wake up here? they took a lot of american tranquilizers to be in this deep of sleep...
Posted by: james | Nov 23 2022 17:07 utc | 1