Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 11, 2022
Si tacuisses, …

Russian retreat from Kherson city sets stage for more hard combat
Washington Post – Nov 10, 2022

U.S. Army Gen. Mark A. Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Tuesday night that 20,000 to 30,000 Russian forces remained on the western bank of the river and that it would take time for them to withdraw. But he, too, saw “initial indicators” that the retreat was underway, he said.

“This won’t take them a day or two,” Milley said, speaking at an event at the Economic Club of New York. “This is going to take them days and maybe even weeks to pull those forces south of that river.”

The Ministry of Defense reported on the completion of the withdrawal of troops from Kherson
Kommersant (machine translation) – Nov 11, 2022

The Ministry of Defense reported that at 5:00 Moscow time, the transfer of Russian troops to the left bank of the Dnieper was completed. As the agency clarifies, not a single piece of military equipment and weapons was left on the right bank.

The department reports that the Armed Forces of Ukraine tried at night to disrupt the transportation of civilians and the transfer of troops to the left bank of the Dnieper. River crossings were hit five times by HIMARS rockets.

“All Russian military personnel crossed over, no losses of personnel, weapons, equipment and materiel of the Russian group were allowed,” the Ministry of Defense said.

Comments

The longer this wars lasts the more i have difficulties to understand Putins plan, strategy or however you will name it, Putin started the SMO with the objectives to demilitarize and de nazifi Ukraine.
Ok let’s imagine the Ukraine will be defeated, will the nazis disappear ? of course not, its very likely, that all the Azovs, Krakens, C14s, Aidars are going underground and start a guerilla warfare of course with the support of western secret services, with the hatred russia created in Ukraine even among loyal ukrainians they will have more support as before the SMO started .So what will we see after this war has ended is another Afghanistan scenario for Russia and not peaceful country.
For me the SMO is nothing but a sequence of wrong assumptions, underestimations, speculations, failures……

Posted by: disorder | Nov 12 2022 12:57 utc | 501

[500] HIMARS did not destroy the bridge.
The [Antonovsky] bridge was damaged enough that the Russians built the pontoon bridge right next to it. I would guess not too many tracked vehicles passed over it lately.
It will be interesting to see how many rounds that the HIMARS has fired, have really been shot down. I see the Russian also say that the rounds are diverted / neutralized or something with their EW systems now too. Given the speed those things travel one would think it would take extensive GPS jamming to throw them off course (if that what they are doing) and that GPS jamming would show up as pretty widespread – but weak as the distance from the signal location expands.

Posted by: Bill Smith | Nov 12 2022 13:06 utc | 502

Posted by: Anthony | Nov 12 2022 12:02 utc | 500

but the point is HIMARS did not destroy the bridge.

No it did not but it did cause enough damage that the bridge had to be closed several times for repairs for whilst no structural damage was done it did punch holes in the bridge. Rendering the bridge unusable , even temporarily, is good enough from the UAF perspective.

Traffic on the Antonovsky Bridge over the Dnepr River in Russia-controlled Kherson Region has been halted after Ukrainian attacks, according to local authorities.
The 1366-meter bridge has been bombed three times by Ukrainian forces in the past 24 hours.
In the latest overnight strike “the bridge was hit, but it’s not destroyed. Only some new holes have appeared,” Kirill Stremousov, deputy head of the Kherson Region administration, said.
“We’ve halted all traffic [over the bridge] and are going to fix it now,” the official added.
According to Stremousov, pontoon crossings over the Dnieper will be set up in the area pending repairs on the Antonovsky Bridge.
The Ukrainian strike was carried out with use of US-supplied HIMARS multiple rocket launch systems, he claimed.
Due to that they buil a pontoon bridge which also got hit as well as providing multiple ferrys should both bridges be closed. Many civilians were evacuated via ferry’s due the the bridges being repeatedly targeted and hit.

Ukraine strikes key bridge with US-made HIMARS missiles – local authorities
In the link below are photos of holes punched in the road on the bridge.
Antonovsky bridge fresh photos, after HIMARS attack
Even the pontoon bridge that was built was hit by HIMARS

Comparing the super-expensive HIMARS to the very economical GRAD’s is a bit silly.

I compared them because they are both MLRS systems. I’m sure Russia does have precision artillery but no MLRS system like the HIMARS- (stand to be corrected on that one).

Posted by: Down South | Nov 12 2022 13:41 utc | 503

Screwed up the formatting. This was my writing

Due to that they buil a pontoon bridge which also got hit as well as providing multiple ferrys should both bridges be closed. Many civilians were evacuated via ferry’s due the the bridges being repeatedly targeted and hit.

not RT.

Posted by: Down South | Nov 12 2022 13:43 utc | 504

Slight typo in 499: Should be Berdyansk, not Berdyanska. The actual quote is:
… потому что мечта Зеленского — рассечь фронт, нашу группировку и выйти к Бердянску.
“therefore the dream [intent ?] of Zelensky is to split apart the front, our grouping [of forces] and get to Berdyansk.”

Posted by: Seward | Nov 12 2022 14:04 utc | 505

Down South | Nov 12 2022 13:41 utc | 505
Stand corrected. Russia does have guided MLRS and I believe each rocket can be indignantly targeted. For forget which system it is but basically an upgraded variant of the Tornado or Smerch. 120k range and a lot more rockets than the HIMARS system.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 12 2022 14:05 utc | 506

Kremlin fanclub cope and spin bringing up irrelevant WW2 scenarios, Sun Tzu quotes and calling everyone who criticizes Russian pussyfooting “trolls”.
“Any date on when USA will have to evacuate cities because Russian backed Mexico is shelling Texas?” <- this is trolling. Just because people who disagree with Kremlin make you angry, does not make them trolls.

Posted by: experienced | Nov 12 2022 14:07 utc | 507

https://archive.ph/3H6ra#selection-1671.2-1701.120
I don’t think that’s going to happen. Not this time. Very high price. And so, if the law enforcement system does not cope and does not work out the traitors, then the military will work — there is no other way. I talk to the military, and they say so. They’ll just shoot you like dogs.
— In some cases, the legal system cannot say whether a person is a traitor or not. Rukh CHESNO maintains a register of traitors, and we ask everyone to fill out the online form anonymously if there is information about traitors. What can you say about the mayor of Kherson Kolykhaev — is he a traitor or not?

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 12 2022 14:09 utc | 508

Next will be Zaporizhzhia, same situation, part of the city is on the wrong side of the Dniepr.Im sure the Ukronazies are already on their way. I guess Russia will get out of there as well and bomb the bridges leaving a part of the Population to the hands of the monsters.
Did I overestimate the power of Russian Military? I cant believe all this is really happening.
The suffering created by doing only a SMO instead of a full scale war is gigantic and the russian losses are also higher than necessary and this war now will drag on at least until next year summer
I hope Surovikin will get the things done soon as they should have been done 6 month ago
Bad optics for Russia and Putin now very bad

Posted by: Amisgohome | Nov 12 2022 14:16 utc | 509

No deal was made they started the evacuation and dug those defensive lines a while ago
Zelensky loudmouthed a statement that Russia was not going to retreat “all their best troops are there” then launched attacks the next morning trying to take advantage of the situation.
The US called them after they said they might pull out, they are probably stressed about how long this is taking.
The Russians had to guard the river and the front line and two other defensivelines, huge waste of troops.
Ukraine just got a bunch of mouths to feed and people they have to heat.

Posted by: OohCanada | Nov 12 2022 14:26 utc | 510

Well, this retreat was a demonstration of operational and logistical excellence – and/or severe ineptitude on the Ukrainian side – which took myself by surprise (I expected successful evacuation of troops, with large numbers of abandoned vehicles, but as it seems, only a handful was actually abandoned, below what Ukrainians definitely lost to drone strikes caught on video during pursuit attempts). As it seems, the Ukrainian intelligence is actually pretty bad, despite all the satellite images and drones.
But it still was a retreat. Even with partial mobilization Russia might still lack manpower to retake the initiative, as Ukraine is now switching to total mobilization, with every male from 16 to 60 now liable to be drafted. Sure, Ukrainian economy is comatose, but 98% of their weaponry and most of their budget comes from outside anyway. Operational skill can only overcome big batallions to an extent.

Posted by: Stanislav | Nov 12 2022 14:30 utc | 511

yeah we’ve been here before Zanon, with incubator babies and Trump pee tapes and Saddam wmd’s and Spain blowing up the Maine.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 12 2022 14:33 utc | 512

Paul Greenwood @477
“A Cynic may say the US destroyed the EU to get all the EU/German industry to migrate to the US to help arm the it for its war against China.”
Garland Nixon thinks this is precisely the Democrat’s diabolical plan to win in 2024. Mercouris concurs.
Starts at 20:00:
https://youtu.be/YwLR2RLjr-Y

Posted by: krypton | Nov 12 2022 14:34 utc | 513

@lex talionis | Nov 11 2022 23:52 utc | 376
Thank you for that link, I love hearing music from the people’s struggles. There are many authors through whose works one can grasp the mind of a movement, but I’ve always felt to understand its heart one must listen to its songs.

Posted by: Vintage Red | Nov 12 2022 14:39 utc | 514

speaking of Iraqi WMD’s, a couple of war criminals are getting together soon
https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2022/11/12/zelensky-and-bush-to-give-joint-pro-war-presentation/
presented by the National Endowment for democracy at the library taxpayers paid for to celebrate the idiot most responsible for the second Iraq War.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 12 2022 14:40 utc | 515

“Any date on when USA will have to evacuate cities because Russian backed Mexico is shelling Texas?” <- this is trolling.

Experienced? Yeah the Jimmy Hendrix Experience high on acid. Mexico does not need to fire one shot, not even one, they need to keep on loving their women and recovering their lands by f*cking, but not Europe as you guys are doing, you’re next in line.

Posted by: Paco | Nov 12 2022 14:41 utc | 516

While I am puzzled by the Russian Kherson retreat, given that the Russians were winning every Kherson battle and could manage to get 30,000 troops and over 100,000 civilians across to the east bank of the Dneiper but supposedly could not re-supply a fraction of that going westward, I am willing to allow perhaps some larger military purpose was involved. But if Russia engages in a conflict to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine and eliminate an existential threat and as a bonus watch Western Europe commit seppuku, it will be a colossal defeat and tragic waste of human lives if Russia agrees to merely retaking the Donbass and the land bridge to Crimea. Ukraine no longer has any navy, marines, air force, or air defense system. If Russia destroyed the bridges over the Dneiper and the rest of Ukraine’s power and rail grid and its communication satellites–an easy task, given that Ukraine is defenseless against long-range missile attacks–then Ukraine would additionally lose its command-and-control, resupply, and economic lifelines and would quickly be forced into unconditional surrender. In one fell swoop, the Western powers that for 500 yehave plagued the rest of the world with imperialism, wars, coups, assassinations, resource-thievery and the like would be brought down for the count and a new world of peace and prosperity could flourish. Russia has the most decisive moment in human history totally in its grasp and its willing to negotiate for only a few hectares of Ukrainian territory? And negotiate with bad-faith actors who have broken every agreement to date with Russia and who will quickly re-establish their bioweapons labs and missile barrages within range of the Russian heartland and who will continue to demonize its artists and scientists and athletes and entire culture?

Posted by: FHTEX | Nov 12 2022 14:43 utc | 517

Opport Knock: — Just noticed your comment at 348:
“Either deliberate misdirection or proof that Ukraine has emptied mental heath facilities in search of conscripts. Tough call, could be both.”
The Ukraine has been shelling the Belgorod region sporadically for six months, and also launching minor sabotage raids across the border from time to time — with little or no retaliation from the Russians. So it seems to me reasonable, not a mental-health issue, for them to plan a 50-100 KM excursion into Russian territory with”equipment” (tekhniki) — tanks, guns, APC’s — and hope to get away with it; especially in light of their recent successes opposite Kharkov, Izyum, Krasny Liman, especially Kherson. Not that it would necessarily be successful. Hubris, not doubt, but rational from their point of view. They are already at war withRussia, suffering extreme damage o their infrastructure. How worse could it be ? One might as well be hanged for a sheep as a goat.

Posted by: Seward | Nov 12 2022 14:43 utc | 518

Stand corrected. Russia does have guided MLRS and I believe each rocket can be indignantly targeted. For forget which system it is but basically an upgraded variant of the Tornado or Smerch. 120k range and a lot more rockets than the HIMARS system.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 12 2022 14:05 utc | 509

Tornado-S, which is a further evolution of the Smerch.
GLONASS-guided, same accuracy, but 300mm rockets and up to 200 km range (vs 227mm and 90 km range for HIMARS) or smaller rockets but, still more powerful and more in number than the HIMARS has, and 120 km range.
Superior in everything, on paper.
They also have thermobaric rockets for it, which I would have rolled out once the NATO Nazi scum gave Ukraine the tungsten shrapnel rounds and used them to shell civilians.
Hasn’t really been seen on the battlefield much for some mysterious reason. The Russians supposedly have 200 of those. Where are they?
One would thing that a rain of 250-kg warheads on the heads of the Nazi pigs deep in the rear would do wonders on the battlefield, and yet…
On top of that Belarus has the Polonez-M — 8 x 300mm rockets with 300 km range, not quite as precise as HIMARS and Tornado-S, but those are some big warheads so you don’t necessarily need to be as precise.
They can send salvos of those to targets beyond Vinnytsya from well within Belarus.
That resource hasn’t been mobilized at all either.
Same for a laundry list of other stuff that would have come useful.
The claims that the goal is to grind down the Ukrainian military don’t quite pass muster in that context either, because the grinding down could have been done with the big bombs and from a distance to destroy troop concentrations and stop advances. We’ve seen some of that, but very, very far from what is needed, and very clearly without trying particular hard. And then we have “goodwill gestures” and tactical retreats without a fight.

Posted by: Tbx | Nov 12 2022 14:52 utc | 519

New part from Germany’s left-wing valkyrie Sarah Wagenknecht – for our German speaking barflies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3oUe8usIkU
She’s laying hard into Germany’s diplomacy against Russia and pro-anything US, which is ruining Germany’s economy.

Posted by: CM of Berlin | Nov 12 2022 14:53 utc | 520

Amisgohome | Nov 12 2022 14:16 utc | 513
What are you talking about Amisgohome? Russians are not holding the city of Zaporozhie so they could retreat from it. They did not hold it at any point since this operation started. You are either confusing the oblast with the city or have been watching a map with declared areas of Russia rather than those they actually hold. If anything their advance towards that city as well as it’s capture would be major success and IMO the only adequate replacement for loss of Kherson. Unlike Kherson most of Zaporozhie is on “correct” eastern side of Dnieper. It is also a regional and administrative center.

Posted by: Lazar | Nov 12 2022 14:55 utc | 521

Next will be Zaporizhzhia, same situation, part of the city is on the wrong side of the Dniepr.Im sure the Ukronazies are already on their way. I guess Russia will get out of there as well and bomb the bridges leaving a part of the Population to the hands of the monsters.
Posted by: Amisgohome | Nov 12 2022 14:16 utc | 513

Pay attention!!! Russia never occupied the City of Zaporizhzhia only the south and east parts of the Oblast, including the NPP at Enerhodar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_occupation_of_Zaporizhzhia_Oblast

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Nov 12 2022 15:03 utc | 522

Advice: for once just lay off the crack pipe for a few weeks before posting again. You NAFO trolls are getting more unhinged by the day.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 12 2022 9:16 utc | 463
I believe you didn’t take your medicine today or the dosage needs to be increased

Posted by: rk | Nov 12 2022 15:05 utc | 523

The clown has spoken:
“For reasons obvious to all reasonable people, Russia is not yet using its entire arsenal of possible means of destruction and did not strike at all possible enemy targets located in populated areas, not only out of our inherent human kindness but there is a time for everything” – Medvedev
I guess I’m not one of those “reasonable” people to see the “obvious”, but this guy speaks more facts than the clown:
“Mercenaries from more than 40 countries are taking part in the battles in Zaporozhye, South Russia, VAST majority are Polish, citizens of Japan, Australia, Canada, France and people from Spanish-speaking countries are among the mercenaries as well” – Zaporozhye Administration

Posted by: rk | Nov 12 2022 15:12 utc | 524

Posted by: FHTEX | Nov 12 2022 14:43 utc | 521
My feeble explanation, to myself, is that they are playing this cat and mouse game to grind as much Ukro/West meat as possible, as well as equipment. In a way, this move has filtered the real Russians in Kherson from those others. Now the “other” are an open target once the Winter Campaign begins.
The optics of the Kherson move are not good, but how can we know what is in the minds of people with real value information in Stavka. We can’t.

Posted by: Tom_12 | Nov 12 2022 15:13 utc | 525

Tbx | Nov 12 2022 14:52 utc | 523
Thanks for the specs on the guided rocket systems.
On the battlefield Russia seems to be keeping much of its latest tech in reserve – keeping its cards close to its chest and not allowing US to get readings on what its got. Not allowing US to figure out tactics when fighting against that tech. The only reason I can think of is Russia is holding it in reserve for in case it has to fight US/Nato on the battlefield.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 12 2022 15:15 utc | 526

For those who do not prentend, but really are puzzled about the retreat. I think it is sometimes rewarding to pay attention to what the main actors say. Surovikin, according to many available sources:

I don’t want to sacrifice Russian soldiers’ lives in a guerrilla war against hordes of fanatics armed by NATO. We have enough technical means to force Ukraine to surrender.

I think that this should be taken as a genuine policy statement. The point is, (1) that RF don’t want more soldiers to die. And (2) that they, Surovikin, claim to be able to fulfill the goals of the SMO without more substantial sacrifices. Is the latter delusion, bluff? It remains to be seen. But we are certainly not in the USSR, Surovikin is not Zhukov, Putin not Stalin.
So, withdraw from Cherson city, not to lose more soldiers’ lives due to dam explosions and suicide troops on speed. Slow advance in Donbass, fortification of defense lines. Continued destruction of power infrastructure, maybe. I think this seems like sound military tactics and strategy. Don’t know much about military stuff though.
The politics of losing the town of Cherson is bad, but that of keeping the loss of Russian soldiers’ lives (especially conscripts) at a minimum, very good.

Posted by: veto | Nov 12 2022 15:22 utc | 527

A close-up satellite image shows large gaps in the Antonivsky Bridge in Kherson, Ukraine. . .here. The ‘before’ image is here.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 12 2022 15:23 utc | 528

rk

The clown has spoken:
“For reasons obvious to all reasonable people, Russia is not yet using its entire arsenal of possible means of destruction and did not strike at all possible enemy targets located in populated areas, not only out of our inherent human kindness but there is a time for everything” – Medvedev

Medvedev always struck me as a clown indeed, he have surely proved that he is during this war.
So he claimed the ukrainian soldiers were in populated areas and thus Russia could not target them?
Yeah right, look at the video in this link, ukrainian soldiers massing in the open field!
“In Video: Ukrainian Troops Preparing For Another Major Offensive In Kherson”
https://southfront.org/in-video-ukrainian-troops-preparing-for-another-major-offensive-in-kherson/

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 12 2022 15:25 utc | 529

[530] Russia seems to be keeping much of its latest tech in reserve
Some of that recent tech, I have in mind some of the EW platforms, has been overrun by Ukraine and is likely now been examined by the US/NATO.
I’d say they are keeping some of their tech in reserve. They may also low numbers of the latest tech as it is the latest and not much time to build up inventory.
As to fighting US/NATO, I would have thought that would escalate right up to nuclear weapons so all that tech would be useless, given MAD.

Posted by: Bill Smith | Nov 12 2022 15:26 utc | 530

TBX #523
Tanks and armor are parked 4 per square KM. When air raid sirens go off the Himars start driving so they cant be hit.
Ukraine has had tons of stuff destroyed Nato has sent in piles more and around it goes.

Posted by: OohCanada | Nov 12 2022 15:28 utc | 531

„I don’t want to sacrifice Russian soldiers’ lives in a guerrilla war against hordes of fanatics armed by NATO. We have enough technical means to force Ukraine to surrender.“
Ok. What is he waiting for?

Posted by: njet | Nov 12 2022 15:32 utc | 532

Tom UK: “Why would ordinary Russian citizens accept deaths of their own solely for the sake of one man’s vanity?”
Funny, no one in Russia thinks that way.
Posted by: Jusses | Nov 11 2022 13:57 utc | 88

____
Indeed. Tom UK is an obvious troll, perhaps paid to spew MI6/CIA “narratives”, aka lies. His statements openly display profound ignorance and/or deceit. Anyone who has read Putin’s speeches, or Lavrov’s, Zakharova’s, Shoigu’s, etc., from the past year alone understand clearly that there is no vanity in any of them (thanks to karlof’s and others work here). They have eloquently articulated, with self-evident, inescapable logic the crimes of US aggression, past and present, including its proxy war via Ukraine, which Russia’s defensive operation.
Tom UK and his ilk have recently barged into the bar, trying to incite a drunken brawl. Few established patrons are falling for their sucker puches.

Posted by: Doug Hillman | Nov 12 2022 15:35 utc | 533


So, withdraw from Cherson city, not to lose more soldiers’ lives due to dam explosions and suicide troops on speed. Slow advance in Donbass, fortification of defense lines. Continued destruction of power infrastructure, maybe. I think this seems like sound military tactics and strategy. Don’t know much about military stuff though.
===
Posted by: veto | Nov 12 2022 15:22 utc | 531
I can think off-hand of half-a-dozen reasons why the Russians might not want to bring out the wonder-weapons just yet, and I think the western provocations are aimed at getting them to use those weapons to some large degree, so I think it is very sound, in principle at least.
In practice, well I think a new phase of the war/smo is coming, marked by the referendums, these positional changes, and the changes in the weather, the changes in command. Clearly the Russians no longer see a united Ukraine as it once was, they have something else in mind now.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 12 2022 15:35 utc | 534

“… which — necessitated — Russia’s defensive operations.

Posted by: Doug Hillman | Nov 12 2022 15:39 utc | 535

Point of Order fellow barflies:
Pohm ( as in Pohmmie Bastard ) is the proper spelling of Pommie.
Prisoner
Of
His
Majesty

Posted by: Exile | Nov 12 2022 15:45 utc | 536

Posted by: Agarwal | Nov 12 2022 15:39 utc | 539
it’s not losing. as as far as shit war management, did you manage to catch the 20 year farce in Afghanistan? the decades long losing effort in Vietnam? do they teach you apprentice propagandists any history at all?

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 12 2022 15:51 utc | 537

Bill Smith | Nov 12 2022 15:26 utc | 534
Most of what has been on the battlefield to date has been soviet era stuff. No or very few latest mod T-90’s ect. Last I heard, the Russian forces were 70% modernized. It’s the modernized section Russia seems to have been using in Ukraine. There was sort of command vehicle captured in Kharkov region but I dint think that was EW.
Apparently the 80,000 volunteers that enlisted some months back do have the latest equipment.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Nov 12 2022 15:51 utc | 538

Another day, another MoA circle jerk.

Posted by: Muthaucker | Nov 12 2022 15:53 utc | 539

>TBX @63
“I am going into armchair general mode with this, but people need to look at the map carefully.”
I think you are exactly right. The road to Odessa along the coast is a road to oblivion. Much better prospects from the North. If there is going to be a Russian offensive it will be toward Zaporozhiva (sp?) and Dneipro (sp?).

Posted by: danf51 | Nov 12 2022 15:58 utc | 540

Does anybody read 550 comments?

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 12 2022 16:00 utc | 541

pretzelattack
Considering Russia already lost more troops than US did in Afghanistan and Iraq combinbed, already after 9 months! If you call Afghanistan and Iraq a mess, which it was, why cant you be true to yoruself and say the same about this war that has not been running for 20 years but only 8 months?
Paul McGrory
History rarely repeats itself, that it allgedly does is a debunked myth that you although apparently believes in.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 12 2022 16:02 utc | 542

It’s not even mostly a problem with the Russian military, which seems to be fighting reasonably well, defeating all previous incursions into Kherson with minimal losses, holding out at Izium for quite a long time against a numerically much superior force, etc. The problem is the strategy and limitations placed from above. Retreat rather than fight, attack strong points rather than weak points, insufficient troop levels that are then subdivided even further, waste 4000 missiles on God knows what and just as the electricity strikes are having success wind them down, don’t attack supply routes, choke points, known Nato advisor HQs, SBU HQ, it just goes on and on. Worst war management in many generations, makes American losses in the Middle East look like masterstrokes of generalship.
Posted by: Agarwal | Nov 12 2022 15:39 utc | 539

Very well said.
The Russian high command has been doing everything possible to lose this war so far.
One more thing to add – early on in the war, there was an overwhelming technical superiority on the Russian side. And yet they didn’t use that window to finish Ukraine off, and then allowed the gap to be closed.
It’s not going to get any better moving forward.
Those Iranian drones that people are gloating about how cheap and useful they are? Well, guess what, they are not just cheap for the Iranians and Russian to produce, so how do we know that somewhere in Europe or the US some facility isn’t cranking up production on analogous drones and in a few months drone swarms are not going to be hitting Moscow and well beyond?
The war had to be brought to a victorious end as quickly as possible, and yet here we are…

Posted by: Tbx | Nov 12 2022 16:06 utc | 543

Given the volume of comments one would think that the Ukraine SMO was being fought in cyberspace and empire is winning.
So Putin is not going to the G20 Summit but Xi is and is reportedly meeting with Biden.
Ukraine is the location for Bad Cop action by Russia and I expect the Good Cop action from Xi at the G20 to be significant as well. What will the status of the Russia SMO in Ukraine be when that meeting occurs?
Thanks to the regular barflys coming forward to refute the invasion of, one can only expect paid, contrarians to the general tenor of the bar. While intelligent challenges are welcome, the din of late is tedious. Maybe it means capitulation is closer, one can always hope.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 12 2022 16:08 utc | 544

One has to laugh at western media headlines:
BBC News
“CELEBRATIONS IN UKRAINE AFTER EXTRAORDINARY VICTORY IN KHERSON”

Posted by: HERMIUS | Nov 12 2022 16:09 utc | 545

Does anyone out there study language? Noam Chomsky: The three views of language which shape instruction in reading and writing are the prescriptive, psycholinguistic, and sociolinguistic. Psycholinguistics is the study of the mental aspects of language and speech. It is primarily concerned with the ways in which language is represented and processed in the brain.
In military matters it’s interesting how words are used in a pejorative way. Opposing governments are “regimes,” and for opposing countries the opponents are personalized like ‘Saddam” and ‘Putin,’ for example. Opposing invasions by US fighters there have been “insurgents” and opposing Russian forces they are “Nazis,” and not “freedom fighters” which are American and Russian invaders. And so on.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 12 2022 16:10 utc | 546

the us has repeatedly lost major wars, it’s a pattern. what wars has it won since the end of world war 2?–Grenada, Panama, Iraq 1 and 2, though it has largely been kicked out of Iraq. you can pretend not to recognize the stench of decades of failure, always accompanied a clamorous din of victory propaganda. that doesn’t change reality. it’s been successful at bribing people, and lying to the American population.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 12 2022 16:15 utc | 547

Zanon @ 549
Quit trying to make cheap points. Maybe you should think of Russia more like N Vietnam. How many troops did N Vietnam lose? Who ‘won’? Who left? It is early in a major conflict and many factors are in flux.
Comparing Russia fighting in Ukraine to US fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan is inapposite for so many reasons.
Also, history dies not directly repeat itself but it shadows itself. It is the study of history that dooms us to its near repetition and helps to pull us away from its repetition at the same time. Oh the irony…

Posted by: Objective Observer | Nov 12 2022 16:15 utc | 548

“Considering Russia already lost more troops than US did in Afghanistan and Iraq combinbed”
I’m calling bullshit on this claim too, which also conveniently leaves out the fact that Russia is fighting not just Ukraine but NATO and the US as well, while the US was fighting much weaker foes, particularly the Taliban. I would ask you to be true to yourself, but what the hell are you?

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 12 2022 16:17 utc | 549

pretezelattack
I just told you that US fail at wars.
So do Russia, they often also fail at wars. Soviet Afghan, perhaps the biggest latest for the russians actually begna to look like this ukrainian war.
Or rather worse, 15k died in Afghanistan. The death toll for russians in Ukraine is already way passed that number.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 12 2022 16:23 utc | 550

pretzelattack
US afghan death toll: About 2500
US irag death toll: About 4500
=
7000k
Russia have already lost more than that in Ukraine.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 12 2022 16:27 utc | 551

@462 Arch Bungle The days of the USA being the “arsenal of democracy” is long gone.
@Yeah, Right | Nov 12 2022 10:12 utc | 481

The MIC has its assembly lines, sure, it does.
But when it comes time for Total War then you have to convert civilian assembly lines to military production.
And those civilian assembly lines don’t exist.

This.
However, it is not just USA, it is the collective West, NATO & 5-Eyes, where a number of nations do not and cannot manufacture even small arms ammunition, let alone dumb iron bombs …
Consequences of over three decades of rabid Empire neoliberalism, off-shoring, de-industrialization, and loss of monopoly control of critical resources essential for modern tech & war …
Move to a ‘War Economy’, or ‘Total War’ status, not, cannot happen.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 12 2022 16:28 utc | 552

“speaking of Iraqi WMD’s, a couple of war criminals are getting together soon
https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2022/11/12/zelensky-and-bush-to-give-joint-pro-war-presentation/
presented by the National Endowment for democracy at the library taxpayers paid for to celebrate the idiot most responsible for the second Iraq War.”

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 12 2022 14:40 utc | 519
Stop me if you’ve heard this one. A US idiot and a Ukraianian clown walk in to the US idiot’s bar…

Posted by: JHW | Nov 12 2022 16:32 utc | 553

It’s all downhill for Russia from here. Deep down, many of us knew it stood no chance once the US and NATO started to get more involved in the war, but we hoped for a miracle. Well, it looks like the miracle isn’t going to happen. I will say this though, Russia tried. Shame on its allies (with the notable exception of Iran) for abandoning it to the US/NATO wolves.

Posted by: Annoyed User | Nov 12 2022 16:33 utc | 554

“….opposing Russian forces they are “Nazis,” and not “freedom fighters”…” Don Bacon@554
Calling the Ukrainian militias and others (such as city councils and the Rada) that identify with Nazi collaborators Nazis may be a shorthand but it is not inaccurate. These are people who openly identify themselves with the Nazi regime in Poland. Chrystia Freeland’s grandfather- whose politics she admires- was a Nazi ideologue, the editor of a wartime propaganda journal who wrote delightedly of news of the loss of troopships in the Atlantic.
They may call themselves freedom fighters-they are after all on the side of the Free World (TM)- given that for Bandera/Nazi collaborators “Freedom” means the right to torture Russians to death and ethnically cleans any lands claimed as Ukrainian. But it would be more accurate to call them Nazis or terrorists.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 12 2022 16:33 utc | 555

Russian exodus Near Antoniv Bridge in Kherson here. The slope of the lower Dnipro averages 45 mm/km. The current’s velocity depends on the slope and water level. At the rapids the current reached 5 m/sec and more,

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 12 2022 16:35 utc | 556

I like your style, Tichy.
Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Nov 12 2022 12:11 utc | 501
Another day, another MoA circle jerk.
Posted by: Muthaucker | Nov 12 2022 15:53 utc | 545
Very perceptive of you.

Posted by: Jusses | Nov 12 2022 16:36 utc | 557

It is all downhill for the West from here. Discuss.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Nov 12 2022 16:38 utc | 558

@ bevin
So the old guys conscripted on the streets and in their homes are Nazis? Come on.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 12 2022 16:38 utc | 559

@553 The BBC has been trying very hard to make a couple hundred people look like a ‘massive celebration’.

Posted by: dh | Nov 12 2022 16:39 utc | 560

Soviet Afghan, perhaps the biggest latest for the russians actually begna to look like this ukrainian war.
Or rather worse, 15k died in Afghanistan. The death toll for russians in Ukraine is already way passed that number.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 12 2022 16:23 utc | 560
You’ve watched Rambo III one too many times.
I’m using a Western, Russia hating source, so they can’t be accused of bias.

3. The USSR suffered a massive military defeat in Afghanistan at the hands of the mujahideen
This is one of the most persistent myths of Afghan history. It has been trumpeted by every former mujahideen leader, from Osama bin Laden and Taliban commanders to the warlords in the current Afghan government. It is also accepted unthinkingly as part of the western narrative of the war. Some western politicians go so far as to say that the alleged Soviet defeat in Afghanistan helped to cause the collapse of the Soviet Union itself. On this they agree with Bin Laden and al-Qaida’s other leaders, who claim they destroyed one superpower and are on their way to destroying another.
The reality is the Afghan mujahideen did not defeat the Soviets on the battlefield. They won some important encounters, notably in the Panjshir valley, but lost others. In sum, neither side defeated the other. The Soviets could have remained in Afghanistan for several more years but they decided to leave when Gorbachev calculated that the war had become a stalemate and was no longer worth the high price in men, money and international prestige.
In private, US officials came to the same conclusion about Soviet strength, although they only admitted it publicly later. Morton Abramowitz, who directed the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research at the time, said in 1997: “In 1985, there was a real concern that the [mujahideen] were losing, that they were sort of being diminished, falling apart. Losses were high and their impact on the Soviets was not great.”
4. The CIA’s supply of Stinger missiles to the mujahideen forced the Soviets out of Afghanistan
This myth of the 1980s was given new life by George Crile’s 2003 book Charlie Wilson’s War and the 2007 film of the same name, starring Tom Hanks as the loud-mouthed congressman from Texas. Both book and movie claim that Wilson turned the tide of the war by persuading Ronald Reagan to supply the mujahideen with shoulder-fired missiles that could shoot down helicopters. The Stingers certainly forced a shift in Soviet tactics. Helicopter crews switched their operations to night raids since the mujahideen had no night-vision equipment. Pilots made bombing runs at greater height, thereby diminishing the accuracy of the attacks, but the rate of Soviet and Afghan aircraft losses did not change significantly from what it was in the first six years of the war.
The Soviet decision to withdraw from Afghanistan was made in October 1985, several months before Stinger missiles entered Afghanistan in significant quantities in the autumn of 1986. None of the secret Politburo discussions that have since been declassified mentioned the Stingers or any other shift in mujahideen equipment as the reason for the policy change from indefinite occupation to preparations for retreat.

10 myths about Afghanistan

Posted by: Down South | Nov 12 2022 16:42 utc | 561

Posted by: Jonathan W | Nov 12 2022 16:38 utc | 568
That has essentially been the topic of this thread.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 12 2022 16:43 utc | 562

from State
Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken met today with Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba in Phnom Penh. The Secretary discussed the United States’ unwavering commitment to assist Ukraine in mitigating the effects of Russia’s continued attacks on critical infrastructure, including with accelerated humanitarian aid and winterization efforts. The two reaffirmed the importance of the Black Sea Grain Initiative’s renewal before it expires on November 19 and its role in supporting global food security. They also discussed Ukraine’s continued effectiveness on the battlefield, and the Secretary reiterated that the timing and contents of any negotiation framework remains Ukraine’s decision.. . .here
In other news, the tail wags the dog!

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 12 2022 16:45 utc | 563

Down South
I have never seen any Ramob movie.
I am interested in facts:
Result of Soviet Afghan war, millions dead and..

Afghan mujahideen victory Geneva Accords (1988) Withdrawal of Soviet forces from Afghanistan Afghan Civil War continues

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War
Surely you do not deny Soviet somehow won the war?

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 12 2022 16:48 utc | 564

Tom UK’s primordial soup of the newest propaganda, cringe talking points, bold-faced lies repackaged as assertions and neo-con-lib Agritpop.
Gotta feel it to believe it!

Posted by: rmml | Nov 12 2022 16:52 utc | 565

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 12 2022 16:27 utc | 561
Give us a break.
US in Iraq and Afganistan wasn’t even challenged. They were there on vacation to money launder and traffic drugs. 20 yrs and they pull out in a week, and in less time forgetting about the whole thing like it never happened. The last serious war they were in was Vietnam where they LOST.
Comparing loses in these situations is more than ridiculous. Were the Afghans or the Iraqis getting top of the line military equipment ? No No No …..

Posted by: Tom_12 | Nov 12 2022 16:55 utc | 566

USUKIS deploy trolls on informative and truthseeking message boards. It costs them much less than employing diplomats seeking compromises but it increases the risk of USUKIS being ignored on the global stage.
If you had kept quiet …
Why not ignore the 90% of contributions here that come from blatant trolls? Russia is trying to force truth onto addicted liars whose only response is to spawn more lies and more liars against truth and reality.
This only sharpens the admiration in which Russia is held.

Posted by: Giyane | Nov 12 2022 16:57 utc | 567

Annoyed User@564
I am sure that you are completely sincere. The sentiments that you voice are widely shared. But I think that you are wrong.
Firstly because you over estimate the strength of the Empire by accepting its own evaluation of it.
And secondly because you are concentrating your attention on a tiny military detail in a much wider campaign.
The reality is that Ukraine is in a state of collapse- its population scattered, it economy devastated, its polity reduced to that of an authoritarian puppet dictatorship. Not only are Ukrainians not allowed to dissent from their-NATO imposed- government but the government itself is allowed no agency. For all practical purposes Ukraine has dissolved into its historic constituents.
Once destroyed the village cannot be saved.
And the rot only begins there: NATO and the EU have been changed radically by their intervention. The changes in their economies and societies are much greater than those forced on Russia.
And, in the rest of the world, minor adjustments to the lines of trenches in Ukraine are not only of little interest but quite beyond the understanding of all but a few military experts, who will differ in their interpretations.
The only dramatic changes that we have seen since February are in popular expectations: those who felt Russia would smash its way to the North Sea in a lightening campaign are unhappy. So are those who felt that the activation of the NATO alliance, with its enormous-paper and financial- resources and its unified US command, would lead quickly to Russia being forced out af all the territories claimed by Kiev.
In fact Russia’s core objective- respect and constitutional protection for the minorities who constitute the majority of the population of Ukraine- has almost certainly been achieved. The world can no longer pretend that the persecution of Russians by fascists in the Donbas is not a problem but an invention from Moscow.
All it has to do now is to defend its borders and to insist on just peace terms. When it has done that it will have, without much effort, have held off a military alliance representing three or four times its population, with a budget thirty times its own, faced down the most concentrated economic warfare on generations and consolidated its friendship with most of the major nations of eurasia.
And that is not to mention what has happened in Europe and the United States where deepening fissures in society and weaknesses in the economy have been papered over by choruses of ultra right russophobia and cold war revivalism from a political class which, on closer examination is either venal in its dependence on imperial power or re-inventing fascism, one ban and criminalisation at a time.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 12 2022 17:02 utc | 568

oldhippie @548: “Does anybody read 550 comments?”
Nobody does. In these conditions everybody just scrolls scanning the “Posted by:” field for non-trolls. A few more energetic readers will read a troll post or two and counter it out of a sense of civic duty, but nobody is reading all the troll posts. Who could have that much time to waste?

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 12 2022 17:07 utc | 569

Don Bacon | Nov 12 2022 16:38 utc | 569
No Don, not unlike the majority conscripted into the Wehrmacht, they were not given a choice.
But the guys standing behind them, with swastika tattoos, making sure that they don’t desert, and the politicians conscripting them and the propaganda mill that has been preaching Galician fascism, often using textbooks paid for by the Canadian government- they are all Nazis.
And to deny it, suggesting that they are simply ‘guys on the other side, just like us’ is apologism.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 12 2022 17:08 utc | 570

“This British supplied army was defeated by the Red Army which had retreated to Tsaritsyn by a General called Joseph Stalin.”
Posted by: Paul McGrory | Nov 12 2022 13:52 utc | 507
Reread your history.
Stalin won no great victory at Tsaritsyn. He was recalled to Moscow by Trotsky before the battles commenced in 1918. Over the next year, the battles around Tsaritsyn went back and forth, with the city falling to the White Army in June, 1919.
Tsaritsyn didn’t end up in the hands of the Red Army until January of the next year and not through any great battle. The White Army was collapsing on all fronts and the White Army abandoned the city to the Red.
——————————————————
Posted by: Paul McGrory | Nov 12 2022 13:52 utc | 507
“Another fault by you, believing what developed in past wars will happen in the next one.”
Posted by: Zanon | Nov 12 2022 14:13 utc | 512
Ignoring lessons learned in past battles makes you some kind of special. You’re misinterpreting the axiom “preparing to fight the next war by planning to fight the last one.”
One great lesson taught by this and all other wars is that the only way you win a war is by either depriving your enemy of the ability to successfully wage that war, or by making it too costly for your enemy to continue.
Russia’s threshold for those two things is much higher than the Ukraine’s or their western allies, especially with a larger, more encompassing conflict developing in Asia.
It benefits Russia to keep those conflicts separate and Putin is NOT the idiot, or half the thug, the Western Media paints him to be. I don’t see him being easily pressured in to jumping because Xi says jump.
More likely to do what the West has been doing for Ukraine.

Posted by: JHW | Nov 12 2022 17:08 utc | 571

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 12 2022 16:28 utc | 562
However, it is not just USA, it is the collective West, NATO & 5-Eyes, where a number of nations do not and cannot manufacture even small arms ammunition, let alone dumb iron bombs …
Move to a ‘War Economy’, or ‘Total War’ status, not, cannot happen.

This why the South Korean arms deal is a litmus test.
It’s a fundamental admission by the West that it can no longer continue supplying its own wars.
Just like it turned to Taiwan to supply it’s chips, China to supply almost everything else it now begins to turn to its most trusted Asian satrapy to supply what should be crucial to a nation: it’s weapons.
That’s the pattern that’s emerging.
And if this is is case for the Ukraine theater, what about China which is on the menu Uncle Sam has been greedily eyeing for some time now?
Moreover, the US is now locked into a long term engagement in the Ukrainian theatre: That means no more “a la carte'” invasions of smaller countries, primarily in the Middle East. No invasion of Iran, no further troop escalation in Syria, Iraq. Nothing.
This might be the last war the West fights with its own conventional weapons for decades to come.
If anyone has any doubts that the pendulum of economic and military power has swung to Asia this should remove the last of them.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 12 2022 17:12 utc | 572

Posted by: bevin | Nov 12 2022 17:02 utc | 579
“…In fact Russia’s core objective- respect and constitutional protection for the minorities who constitute the majority of the population of Ukraine- has almost certainly been achieved….”
Thank you, bevin! I appreciate this entire post you have given, especially the “almost certainly”! May it be so!
And also, thanks to veto @531 :- “Surovikin is not Zhukov; Putin is not Stalin.” Yes!

Posted by: juliania | Nov 12 2022 17:16 utc | 573

Wikipedia and Google Search, after all glorifications achieved in the past, have gone to the dark side.
I used to donate to Wikipedia a healthy sum annually, not a penny this year.
For Google, I just used its competitors more and more for “non-kosher” Russian search. To be honest, Yandex Translate offers much quicker, larger text size, and, most importantly for a translator, truer fidelity.
Wikipedia and Google, you can fiddle, but you can’t fool.

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Nov 12 2022 17:20 utc | 574

Just great sigh…
Who is Chrystia Freeland, Washington’s “prime candidate” for NATO Secretary-General?

The New York Times recently reported that Washington is promoting Canada’s deputy prime minister, Chrystia Freeland, as its “prime candidate” to succeed Jens Stoltenberg as NATO secretary-general when the Norwegian’s term expires in September 2023.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/11/09/camp-n09.html
Imagine the brainwashing going on inside Nato HQ, russian hatred and paranoia 24/7.

Posted by: Zanon | Nov 12 2022 17:25 utc | 575

@ bevin
But the guys standing behind them, , with swastika tattoos
Come on (again). I’ve seen videos of Uk combat units acting independently operating in various places, with local leaders deciding what path to go down and how best to engage the enemy, with common uses of digital devices to send coordinates to indirect fire units. It’s a whole new world with local leaders making decisions about movement and fire control. These leaders also have a high morale, as is usual for defenders of their countries. The US has learned this bitter truth in its invasions, losing to the locals, never winning, because the locals are fighting for their country and the US and its allies are fighting for the US.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 12 2022 17:25 utc | 576

“Were the Afghans or the Iraqis getting top of the line military equipment ? No No No …..”
Posted by: Tom_12 | Nov 12 2022 16:55 utc | 577
That is, until the Sublime Brandon modernized the entire Afghan military, for the Taliban, last year.

Posted by: JHW | Nov 12 2022 17:27 utc | 577

@ KitaySupporter
I used to donate to Wikipedia a healthy sum annually, not a penny this year.
Me too. I wouldn’t mind one bit if they put an advertisement on every page. In fact it’s a national custom now.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 12 2022 17:30 utc | 578

IMO Russian command behaves consistently and methodically since the beginning of SMO ,
and that at multiple levels, not only kinetic ( hybrid war) .
A war of attrition ( hybrid also) was imposed on Russia. I think we need to factor in all this before
hurrying to criticize this or that detail or maneuver (that is if one is sincere … ).
RF proved tactical abilities in the initial phase( gain of territory with fierce battles )and proved strategic ability
in decisively degrading critical infrastructure , once the decision was justified.

Posted by: GoFigure | Nov 12 2022 17:32 utc | 579

Tbx @551: “…how do we know that somewhere in Europe or the US some facility isn’t cranking up production on analogous drones and in a few months drone swarms are not going to be hitting Moscow and well beyond?”
That is not how military procurement works in the US/EU. It didn’t even work that way in the Russian Federation until recently, and they only changed because they have no choice (necessity is a motherf…).
All capitalist countries have profits as the key driver for all industrial enterprises, and those profit rates have to be higher than the “entrepreneur” can get from financial scams or they are losing money (opportunity costs). No profits (or not enough) then there is no investment. This is why every single military development project in the US and EU always suffers scope bloat, specification creep, and then massive budget overruns. For a classic example the F-35 was supposed to be so cheap that it could be a reasonable replacement for the A-10, and of course you know how that turned out.
When the West starts nationalizing manufacturing facilities then you know they are feeling the urgency and you might see something threatening, but until then all of the West’s domestically produced military drones will be ludicrously expensive and slow to produce.
Russia is learning the hard way that the capitalist economic model is not serving their needs, but they are learning. The flood of Lancet drones to the Russian troops over the last couple weeks is proof that they are taking the lessons seriously.
All western weapons systems will always be more expensive than whatever it is that they are to replace, and they will be more complex and thus slower and more difficult to manufacture as well. You may as well consider this an economic law in capitalist systems.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 12 2022 17:48 utc | 580

While I am puzzled by the Russian Kherson retreat, given that the Russians were winning every Kherson battle and could manage to get 30,000 troops and over 100,000 civilians across to the east bank of the Dneiper but supposedly could not re-supply a fraction of that going westward, I am willing to allow perhaps some larger military purpose was involved.
You basically answered your own question….
Keeping the west toehold required the supply of 3 divisions…. 30,000 men…
Keeping the new line along the Deniper River will require far fewer men…
The rest can join the newly mobilized for attacks elsewhere…
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Nov 12 2022 17:48 utc | 581

Don Bacon@577
We obviously differ. In my view the Azov and Kraken militias and the Right Sector and other Banderista politicians who support them and sent them into the Donbas are fascists. And the fascist tradition that they follow is Hitler’s.
As to the morale- this is certainly not true of the Russian speakers, particularly of the Donbas against whom the weight of the persecution is directed. As to the others, it is true as I suggesed, that since the mid-90s russophobic , anti communist indoctrination directed by UN emigre groups has infected a generation of young Ukrainians. The others have fled, been disappeared or skulk silently in corners waiting for the secret police to come, with death lists in hand.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 12 2022 17:50 utc | 582

Oldhippie #548
“Does anybody read 550 comments?”.
I skipped to the last page and only read comments from familiar posters. I don’t have sufficient experience to be sure but the comments avalanche is akin to a denial of service (DNS) attack.
Regular posters will recognise other regular posters so the core signal will not be interrupted. So this tactic is aimed at the casual observer.
I’ve gained the impression that MOA posters are predominantly pro-Russian, or more precisely, anti-imperialist. I’ve certainly encountered dissenting voices but I could understand the general MOA centre of gravity as standing in opposition to a discredited main stream media’s blanket uniformity.
So why target MOA? Its a niche information source, not genuinely influential but informative for the information diletante.
Maybe we’re seeing one of the effects of this new cyber environment that have yet to be catalogued. About a week back I made a comment on the blog that I thought may have been picked up by another channel. Not that I consider myself highly insightful, the comment was more pithy than profound. However MOA may be one of those nodes on the network that help sustain a world view.
Articles linked and comments made by posters often refer to common sources; the Grayzone, Brian Berletic, Micheal Hudson, The Saker and others who are perhaps consumed with a modicum of salt. What is emerging is something organic and perhaps the potential for such a phenomena to ‘mushroom’ has been identified.
The regular posters will recognise other regular posters. Casual observers will not return due to the high noise to signal ratio. The apparent DNS squad will move on to another target for disruption; they do not have the true motivation to effect a real denial. However as a marker of salience, this apparent DNS attack is a significant indicator.

Posted by: Cyclops | Nov 12 2022 17:50 utc | 583

@Doug Hillman | Nov 12 2022 15:35 utc | 537
Quite.
The ‘tasked’ trolls have no substantive knowledge nor comprehension, of history, geopolitics, military operations, etc.
Their supposed ‘knowledge’ is derived from Empires Lies, the suborned & controlled MSM, and the overarching Psyops/propaganda narrative. Hence, they expect the individual & collective knowledge and understanding of their ‘target’ audience is at a similar level.
Keep in mind the 77th Brigade, 18200, etc would not even dare to consider enlightening themselves re the relevant actual speeches/statements, primary sources etc, ’tis verboten, ‘unclean’. To do so, or even refer to primary & verified facts obliquely would bring into question their ‘loyalty’, ‘trustworthiness’, or worse.
Hence, unfortunately, the tsunami of juvenile dross flung at the wall.
There are a few notable exceptions, such as professional ‘Wormtongue’ … TrollWoda.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 12 2022 17:51 utc | 584

“The BBC has been trying very hard to make a couple hundred people look like a ‘massive celebration’.
dh@561
That’s where a century of promoting the myth that ‘ordinary people’ love the Monarchy comes in useful.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 12 2022 17:53 utc | 585

What about the railway connection between Ukraine and the EU???
The Ukrainian railway infrastructure has not yet been destroyed, because Russian, Ukrainian and Western oligarchs are interested in this, continuing to earn money together on business schemes that have not changed since the start of the NWO.
Konstantin Sivkov, Deputy President of the Russian Academy of Missile and Artillery Troops, stated this on ORT.
According to Sivkov, Russian titanium is delivered to the West via Ukrainian railways, on which a number of industries, including the military, critically depend.
“Under the existing sanctions that everyone must comply with, there is only one “gray” communication that connects Russia and Europe. These are Ukrainian railways.
Russia produces 87% of the world’s titanium. All this titanium used to go to the needs of the Soviet Union – submarines according to the American classification “Alpha”, according to ours – “Lira” of the 705th project – these were boats made entirely of titanium hulls. 3.5 thousand tons of titanium. The Americans were shocked, because titanium is considered to be at the level of gold in terms of value.
After the destruction of our country by the thieves’ nomenclature of the Soviet Union, titanium became “not needed” here, since there was an interest of the West, primarily the United States, to get this titanium. The whole titan went to the West.
They began to make aircraft wings from titanium, the Excalibur shells for the M777 cannon, which is used against us today, are made from our titanium. If titanium stops deliveries now, then all this will stop. This is worse than gas, because the construction of the latest combat aircraft depends on titanium, among other things.
Therefore, our oligarchy, the Ukrainian oligarchy and the West are objectively interested in ensuring that this railway communication runs smoothly,” Sivkov said.
The main (90%) volume of Western military and material assistance to the Kyiv regime, which lost over 70% of the weapons available on February 24, comes by rail from western Ukraine (Lviv), bordering Poland and Slovakia.
Vulnerabilities – three bridge crossings within the range of tactical missiles and airborne forces, which can be destroyed by three pinpoint strikes at known coordinates. In this case, communications that support the viability and military stability of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the regime as a whole will be destroyed with the prospect of restoration at least a month or two.
Alternative trucking by road does not compensate for the logistical disaster. However, this does not happen, just as many enterprises of the basic economic and defense structure controlled by Kyiv avoid missile and bomb raids.
Export goods and products manufactured at the enterprises of Ukrainian oligarchs and their Russian partners are also exported along the mentioned railway routes in the opposite direction, to the west. After all, after the blockade of air communications, maritime transport and international motor transport, the railway, which was removed from the limits of Western sanctions, remained the only logistical export-import communicator.

Would seem it’s time to cut these routes…..
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Nov 12 2022 18:10 utc | 586

Now about NATO’s biological warfare abilities and activites….
The Intercept, a US-based portal, has rolled out a massive investigation (https://theintercept.com/2022/11/01/biosafety-lab-accident-chikungunya-virus) into the failures by biologists at American laboratories studying various viruses to comply with biosafety standards when working with dangerous pathogens.
There were, in fact, many such failures.
The article reports on hundreds (!) of serious incidents at American biolabs over the past two decades.
The journalists sifted through over 5,500 pages of government reports, including documents from the National Institutes of Health, and came to conclusions that are truly terrifying. Sealing failures have been taking place at BSL-4 labs, which are supposed to adhere to the highest safety standards and store the deadliest and highly contagious strains. There is also evidence of people getting infected, as in the case of a post-graduate student from Washington University who was infected with the Chikungunya virus as a result of an error. In 2010, an autoclave malfunctioned at a University of California lab, potentially exposing its staff to a lethal strain of the SARS virus, but luckily no infections were reported. The article also mentioned “cascading errors” which can pose an immediate threat to the epidemiological situation in the United States.
If we look beyond Covid-19, we see that criminal negligence reigns supreme at biolabs on American soil. Imagine how little care US researchers have for ensuring the safety of dangerous strains elsewhere. If a leak happens there, this will offer them a marvellous opportunity to undertake an external participant observation, for purely scientific purposes, of course, and after that sell their medicines to the affected population.

Monkeypox anyone????
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Nov 12 2022 18:17 utc | 587

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Nov 12 2022 18:10 utc | 588

That had been the fear from the start — that the neoliberal oligarchic rot will undermine the proper waging of what is an existential war and will eventually sell out once again, as it has been for the last 35-40 years.
The hope was that the existential nature of the threat will force the cleansing and reorganization on society, but it looks like it is not going to happen.

Posted by: Tbx | Nov 12 2022 18:17 utc | 588

Bevin #565
“Chrystia Freeland’s grandfather- whose politics she admires- was a Nazi ideologue, the editor of a wartime propaganda journal who wrote delightedly of news of the loss of troopships in the Atlantic.”
I’ve pondered for some time the possibility that remnants of the German National Socialist experiment may have regrouped after WWII with a view to resurrecting their ideology. I don’t have much understanding of how that ideology hung together, possibly because it was not truly coherent, but there were indicators that it was a possibility. Operation Paperclip is the obvious example along with the significant number of Nazi figures who found their way to South America.
One tangent that caught my interest for a while was the LaRouche organisation in the US. Their theories of a continuation of Venetian Oligarchy via Netherlands and then UK and ultimately to the USA was a bit tenuous. However its proponents appeared sincere, their points were well argued and they often touched upon historical landmarks that added credibility.
Friedrich Nietzsche’s ‘Death of God’ had the ancillary effect of killing the devil also. You need a god to aspire to and a devil to run from. In the absence of such constraints we just ooze out all over the table. Rather than having a dividing line betwen good and evil running through each man’s (and women’s) heart, the Ubermensch would separate themselves from the Untermensch and in that way recalibrate and reconstitute their morality.
All we need is an enemy for a foil to our transcendence.

Posted by: Cyclops | Nov 12 2022 18:29 utc | 589

Posted by: Cyclops | Nov 12 2022 17:50 utc | 584
So why target MOA? Its a niche information source, not genuinely influential but informative for the information diletante.
I’ve been insisting for a while now that MoA is under a directed propaganda/influence-ops attack by Western intelligence services.
This has been the case for years in some form or other but has truly taken the form of a ‘counter-propaganda’ attack beginning February 2022.
It’s easy to spot the pattern. The essence is the weird insistence and repetitiveness of posts attempting to shape a specific narrative while aggressively trying to drown out all alternative narratives – with abusive language if necessary. There’s a tone of desperation in their posts.
We used to have a different kind of troll on MoA: much less sophisticated. Given to long streams of repetitive verbal abuse that serves more to clutter the forums. These were easy to spot and clean-up and our host graciously kept up with that task.
It’s telling that we don’t see these crude attacks anymore, instead:
We’re now seeing a much ‘subtler’ kind of troll, ones who are capable of engaging in sophistry, and when sophistry fails using the blunt instrument of verbal abuse. Regardless of the relative subtlety, the pattern is the same: repetitive narrative shaping and aggressive suppression of counter-narratives. Employment of sophistry in place of true logically consistent reasoning. Larger numbers of new posters parroting the same kind of messaging and employing crude versions of the same sophistic arguments. Often forming little “echo chambers” to simulate consensus (“circle jerking”).

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 12 2022 18:36 utc | 590

@591 – Werner von Braun comes immediately to mind. And Mycola Lebed,
Lebed from Wikipedia

Posted by: lex talionis | Nov 12 2022 18:41 utc | 591

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Nov 12 2022 18:10 utc | 588
Therefore, our oligarchy, the Ukrainian oligarchy and the West are objectively interested in ensuring that this railway communication runs smoothly,” Sivkov said.
Perhaps this had something to do with the rash of Russian oligarch deaths early in the SMO. I suspect we’ll see another rash of those around the time these gray routes get terminated.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 12 2022 18:44 utc | 592

Dunkirk analogy is imperfect at best. Britain saved a huge number of soldiers to fight another day, but almost NONE of their equipment was rescued. Without US assistance, Britain would have found it very hard to reequip those troops.
Russia withdrew its 30,000+ troops with ALL their equipment along with 110,000+ civilians. Ukranians are marching into a nearly empty city. Let us look at the cost of their Kherson offensive launched in summer. 10,000+ troops (fathers, brothers, sons …) killed, many more wounded. A Pyrrhic “victory!”
As for Zhukhov not giving up Moscow and fighting Nazis to a stalemate, one must remember the transfer of 20-30 divisions from the Pacific Theater (after a Stalin spy informed him that Japan was going to attack US, not Russia, which turned out to be correct – Pearl Harbor!), troops well-trained for winter warfare, just in time to undertake the defense of Moscow. Remember also General Winter, for which German Army was not prepared (because they thought they would occupy Moscow well before that), but Russians were! Read WWII history.
The situation is not the same in Kherson. The Russian grouping on the right side of the river had logistical problems, because the damaged Antonovski bridge could not be used for heavy equipment and ammunition needed by the troops and the road over Nova Khakhovka dam was constantly shelled by HIMARS. Also, if Ukranians had succeeded in destroying that dam (which any responsible General has to allow for), the resulting flooding would have further isolated the grouping for a week while the river subsided, providing an excellent opportunity for the Ukraine army to surround and annihilate the grouping! That would have been a disaster akin to Stalingrad!
Overall, while the withdrawal is a PR and morale nightmare for Russia, it is just a temporary setback. Grouping is intact and its talents are best used for offense, not a static defense (well-trained territorial troops with artillery support are best for that). Once the mobilized troops are incorporated into the Russian army and General winter arrives, watch out! Half a million Russian army, with the backing of its excellent artillery, missiles, drones and aviation can inflict a huge damage to Ukranian army (may even collapse it), regardless of the enormous Western support. Assuming of course, the Ukrainian infrastructure and economy, as well as the economy of the combined West still remain intact by that time. A few more months and we will know. Just don’t count Russia out yet! They defeated 2 great armies (Napoleon and Hitler) in the past. If history is any guide …

Posted by: Kant | Nov 12 2022 18:48 utc | 593

@588 titanium is considered to be at the level of gold in terms of value.
If only this was true. I have several kilos of Ti sheet metal in my workshop. I paid a few hundred for it on ebay.
I use it to construct lightweight cooking equipment for backpackers.

Posted by: Gt Stroller | Nov 12 2022 19:05 utc | 594

@ Cyclops | Nov 12 2022 18:29 utc | 591
An accessible primer overview, with embedded links and primary sources refs, the congressional investigation archive records re IWG is even more illuminating. Cynthia has a series covering related topics.
Sleepwalking Into Fascism: Why CIA/NATO’s Foreign Policy Has Been Consistent for the Past 77 years
See OSS-CIA & OUN, Operation Paperclip, Japanese Unit 731, the Nazi scientists(SS) engineers, technicians and administrators that ‘was’ the US Space Race … ‘The Right Stuff’ ?
Peace

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 12 2022 19:05 utc | 595

@ Kant | Nov 12 2022 18:48 utc | 595
Well said synopsis of the realities indeed, bravo.

Posted by: Outraged | Nov 12 2022 19:09 utc | 596

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 12 2022 18:36 utc | 592
What manufactured consensus specifically?
The only consensus I see right now is as follows: “Whoever’s got another opinion than mine is a troll”

Posted by: Mushroom | Nov 12 2022 19:20 utc | 597

@592 Arch Bungle
That’s completely correct I think. We got the “concern” trolls, the “rigtheous indignation” trolls, the “Putin is a traitor” trolls, the “we have a right to be critical” trolls and endless variants, but it keeps smelling like a script. I bet my pension that there does exist a field manual for trolls written in Langley or London. Some are working in tandem, some are using different names but their style betrays them as being one individual. There must be a lot of money behind this. Martyanov throws them out quickly, they vent their frustration about him on other sites then…And note, they sink as low as they possibly can. Some start with pseudo-intellectualism but the end-condition of a troll is shouting obscenities or posting pornography. Intellectual honesty cannot be imitated succesfully ever. Well, let us ignore them and keep talking, analysing, thinking…how things really are and may become.
@ 599: A different opinion can be a honest opinion and then it is worthwhile. Troll opinions are all the same and intrinsically dishonest, so: trash. Like the judge said: I have no definition of pornography, but I do know it when I see it. Or I could spend a day showing you the idiocy of trolling, but then I would be feeding you, wouldn’t I? Now you can start ranting about the paradoxes your behaviour let loose. But please, look out for a more honest job if you want to be a serious human being.

Posted by: Anthony | Nov 12 2022 19:34 utc | 598

We’re now seeing a much ‘subtler’ kind of troll, ones who are capable of engaging in sophistry, and when sophistry fails using the blunt instrument of verbal abuse. Regardless of the relative subtlety, the pattern is the same: repetitive narrative shaping and aggressive suppression of counter-narratives. Employment of sophistry in place of true logically consistent reasoning. Larger numbers of new posters parroting the same kind of messaging and employing crude versions of the same sophistic arguments. Often forming little “echo chambers” to simulate consensus (“circle jerking”).
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Nov 12 2022 18:36 utc | 592

Russia Blocks Passage Via Kerch Strait for Ships Loaded Abroad, Turkish Authorities Say https://sputniknews.com/20221112/russia-blocks-passage-via-kerch-strait-for-ships-loaded-abroad-turkish-authorities-say-1104060649.html

Posted by: Laurence | Nov 12 2022 19:44 utc | 599

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Nov 12 2022 18:17 utc | 588
US is a Gollum. Out of control monstrosity, which it was from the very inception.
I leave it to you to figure out who controls it.

Posted by: Tom_12 | Nov 12 2022 19:56 utc | 600