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Open (Not Ukraine) Thread 2022-184
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News & views not related to the war in Ukraine …
@119 SeanAU: Terrific post. Really enjoyed that. Sets out a lot of the issues, clearly. Here’s some feedback:
Herding cats: I certainly am not interested in herding cats, and I’m not interested in being a “leader” in the conventional sense that your message sets out, e.g. a Ghandi, MLK, etc. I explain why below.
Organizational structure: What you set out – visionary leader, inner circle of powerful allies/lieutenants, the successive recruitments of followers… the powerful, centralized communications apparatus, etc. … that’s the classic way to build an organization. I’m not interested in that, either: I want organized, collaborative behavior without the organization. Or the putative leader(s).
As I’ve said before, and I’ll repeat here, I’m not enamored by revolution. I like incrementalism. I’m a farmer, and farming forces you to deal with the actual timing of things; it can’t be abstracted, and it can’t be sped up. It takes what it takes, and for some things, like oaks and apple orchards, that’s a very long time, sometimes longer than one person’s lifetime.
You can get organized behavior just by getting a number of people to read the same or similar documents, like the ones you posted earlier today re: how big orgs dominate the internet. That might inspire people to set up their own blog, and link it to MoA, or other birds-of-a-feather.
You can get organized behavior by building a free operating system, like Linux (behavior: little people own key infrastructure component, no longer pay license fees, and instead invest time improving the OS, or building apps that run on it. Linus Torvalds provided the strategic core, and the community built a commons around it.
You can get organized behavior by building a catalog of businesses which can be run from the household using commonly available, often free inputs. For ex: how to build a hydroponic salad greens operation in your basement. Behavior: people sharing ideas about how to provide for themselves outside the neoliberal realm.
You can get organized behavior simply by providing the tools and resources the desired behavior requires, and give those tools and resources to the persons who are motivated to use them. No gravitas, no robes, no pointy-hat. Just a few download links.
Before I close this message, let me share with the bar my personal definition of a “leader”:
A leader is someone that figures out what needs to be done, and then does it.
Contrast with conventional definition of “leader”: a charismatic, emotionally powerful person that sets direction and through force of character causes the masses to follow his/her lead.
The problem with the conventional definition is that the followers delegate responsibility to the leader, and thereby create a single point of failure. Furthermore, the followers expect the leader to be perfect, and they never are, causing disillusionment. Another built-in failure mode.
And ultimately, the “leader” loses respect for the followers, because they’re behaving as sheep, and sooner or later finds a rationale to shear the sheep.
Ask yourself this: which definition of “leader” most successfully harnesses the latent powers of the individual?
Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Oct 29 2022 13:53 utc | 121
@Tom Pfotzer #130
Tom: how are you defining “get around”? Get rid of / fire the 600K? Defeat a few of their most stupid policies (e.g. plunder the ROW, or NeoCons, etc), or find ways to be much less affected by their malignancy? Not dodging you; whichever you pick I’ll respond to, just want to narrow down the question so I give an accurately-aimed answer.
Get around means: if you have a different way to do things – you have to not only replace existing policy but overcome the existing power structure to do so. The vast majority of the existing elites will lose power/money/whatever in a change – so how do you overcome their existing power/money/whatever in order to change the basis of their power/money/whatever?
A classic violent revolution does this by literally upending the table.
Some of discussion below suggests that people can also get better at not being preyed upon. Not necessarily defeating in direct combat, but becoming either invisible or un-interesting. Let’s talk about that next.
The only way to evade is to be worthless to the power structure – which generally means literally without worth or power or position.
I have zero interest in that option.
Other than at the most local level, anywhere there’s a pot of money or levers of power, the vermin will weasel into it.
There is almost nothing that can be accomplished with regards to modern technology if finance is restricted to the local level. Not a modern steel smelter, not clothing manufacture much less something like a chip fab.
And this is where culture plays a role, and it’s probably the biggest factor in the game. Coming soon: how do you build a culture? Do you have to build a culture for everyone, or just … some, in order to be effective?
I understand what you are trying to say, but my rejoinder is that there is not one single example, ever, where culture has prevented the forces of psychopathy/sociopathy without also forcing literal stagnation. See China post Kublai Khan until the Qing dynasty fell.
Ya. Another way to do it is to not be interesting to the predators. Find a way to get what you want while being boring to predators. There are a lot of ways to it, and we should discuss them.
That might work in nature, but it doesn’t work in modern society. Among other things, predators in Nature cannot tax the literal entire ecology everyone lives in.
Printing money, for example, is the ultimate taxation because it removes a slice of value from every bit of money already in existence. Hiding cannot circumvent that.
The bankster dynamic driving up asset prices is another example. Even if you own your own home and property taxes don’t shoot through the roof – ultimately your children will still pay the price (or live in your house).
Sadly, I think literal revolution is what has to happen.
Posted by: c1ue | Oct 29 2022 20:43 utc | 135
Putin the peacemaker has brokered an agreement between Armenia and Azerbaijan regarding Karabakh.
Maybe one day in the near or far future….the Minsk Agreements will look so sweet ….. and wonder why any would have preferred war….
Azerbaijan, Armenia, Russia ink document to commit to normalization
https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/diplomacy/azerbaijan-armenia-russia-ink-document-to-commit-to-normalization
Azerbaijani, Armenian and Russian leaders agreed on a joint statement to continue to work on the normalization of ties between Baku and Yerevan, following a trilateral summit in the Russian resort town of Sochi on Monday.
“In our common opinion, this was a very useful meeting. In my opinion, it created a very good atmosphere for future possible agreements on some fundamental issues,” Putin said in a statement after the meeting concluded.
Putin underlined that parties could not agree on everything concerning Karabakh, adding that some parts had to be removed from the text “previously worked out at the level of specialists.”
He later said Moscow will do everything for a final settlement between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
“The Russian Federation remains in contact with Armenia and Azerbaijan to continue the dialogue and put an end to the conflict in this region,” Putin noted.
Earlier, Putin held separate talks with Azerbaijani and Armenian leaders with a focus on individual talking points addressed by Ilham Aliyev and Nikol Pashinian during the trilateral meeting.
This September, deadly clashes on the Azerbaijan-Armenia border near Karabakh claimed nearly 300 lives.
Relations between the two former Soviet republics have been tense since 1991, when the Armenian military occupied Nagorno-Karabakh, a territory internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan.
In the fall of 2020, in 44 days of clashes, Baku liberated several cities, villages, and settlements from Armenian occupation, ending in a Moscow-brokered truce. The peace agreement is celebrated as a triumph in Azerbaijan.
“The initiative comes a month after the worst clashes between Armenia and Azerbaijan since their war in 2020.
“In our common opinion, it was a very useful meeting that created a very good atmosphere for possible future agreements,” the Russian president told journalists.
“Ahead of the trilateral summit, Putin met the two visiting leaders, Armenian Prime Minister Pashinian and Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev, separately.
“The most important thing is to ensure peace and create conditions for development,” he told Pashinian.
Ahead of the meeting, Pashinian said Yerevan’s priorities included Azerbaijani withdrawal from the areas in Karabakh controlled by Russian peacekeepers and the liberation of Armenian POWs.
“Putin then received Aliyev, who thanked his Russian counterpart for giving “impetus to the normalization process”.
“The Karabakh conflict is already part of history. This issue was resolved two years ago. So there is practically nothing left to discuss in this context,” Aliyev insisted.
Last month, 286 people from both sides were killed in clashes that have jeopardized a slow and halting peace process.”
[[[the incident was border guards exchanging fire….. but no one could determine who fired first…. Seemed to my reading at the time like a “Maiden style” with unknown snipers firing on both…. Whatever happened it tipped over the fragile ceasefire…..(so… cui bono???….. Russia certainly doesn’t need another bonfire on its borders) ]]]]
“The hostilities ended with a U.S.-brokered cease-fire, after earlier failed attempts by Russia to negotiate a truce.
[lol]
“With Moscow increasingly isolated on the world stage following its February offensive on Ukraine, the U.S. and the EU have taken a leading role in mediating the Armenia-Azerbaijan peace talks.
EU chief Charles Michel and French President Emmanuel Macron hosted talks between Pashinian and Aliyev in Brussels in August.
Following a slew of diplomatic efforts from Brussels and Washington, Armenian and Azerbaijani foreign ministers met on Oct. 3 in Geneva to begin drafting the text of a future peace treaty.
Russia and EU leaders have traded criticism of their respective mediation efforts in the Karabakh conflict, with Moscow and Paris, in particular, exchanging jabs this month.
Putin recently dismissed a comment by Macron who said that Moscow was “destabilizing” a peace process between the two countries.
Moscow has traditionally acted as a middleman between the two countries, which were both part of the Soviet Union.
Russian peacekeepers
The 2020 cease-fire agreement saw Russia deploy a force of 2,000 peacekeepers to the region to oversee a fragile truce.
Ahead of the talks, Armenia’s Pashinian said he was ready to extend their presence by up to another two decades.
Russia’s peacekeeping mission has been criticized by some with even Pashinyan raising concerns about the force, in rare Armenian criticism of its ally.
“The EU has announced a “civilian EU mission” to Armenia to monitor cease-fire violations.
[monitor? Or instigate?]
“Aliyev has vowed to repopulate Karabakh with Azerbaijanis and recently re-opened the Zangilan airport in the liberated territories.
Baku’s ally Türkiye has also advanced its efforts to be involved in mediation, with President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan meeting both Aliyev and Pashinian recently in Prague.
The Kremlin said the trio would also discuss “questions on rebuilding and developing trade and economic as well as transport links.”
Posted by: Melaleuca | Nov 1 2022 0:03 utc | 200
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