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September 28, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-160

Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.

Please stick to the topic.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Posted by b on September 28, 2022 at 12:11 UTC | Permalink

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It really does not have any meaning to Europe that the USA had Nord Stream shut down via military attack. The USA controls most of Europe as Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the earth.

Europe will get in line with the USA regardless of what the USA does. This will continue to be the case as long as the USA is around.

However, the USA may not be around much longer for the Russian Bear will soon arise and devour much flesh according to Daniel 7:5. This happens when the Bear has 3 ribs in its mouth between its teeth. Crimea, Luhansk, and Donetsk may be those 3 ribs.

If so, immediately get out of the USA or any of her territories as soon as Donetsk looks to fall 100% to the Russians. Go on a long vacation outside of the USA. This may very well save your life.

Posted by: young | Sep 28 2022 12:34 utc | 1

All that gas going straight into the air. Shouldn't they burn it instead? You know, like in that old comic strip

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Sep 28 2022 12:44 utc | 2

@2 Russia 'could' have done it. But with that comes the realisation that Russia can move that close without being detected by numerous sensing apparatus. That in many ways is worse than paying Russia off under the table and blaming Poland.

Posted by: Bob | Sep 28 2022 12:50 utc | 3

Posted by: OhhCanada | Sep 28 2022 12:42 utc | 2

The US doesn't need the Russians to make them look like assh*les. They can manage it all by themselves.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Sep 28 2022 13:04 utc | 4

"Russia bombed the pipes" yeah a squad of Russian ninjas with invisivility potions snuck right in front of NATO back pool and did it. Lol retarded western buttniffers.

Posted by: Comandante | Sep 28 2022 13:05 utc | 5

how can Europe be so subservient? NATO and the US tells them what they can and can't. WTF? USA has wanted the pipelines shut down since before it was built! Now they have damaged it, and the Europeans can't even find out what is going on. They have been so dumbed down by the narrative that Putin is evil, they have lost all touch with reality.
The world is ruled by a group of idiots.

Posted by: g wiltek | Sep 28 2022 13:09 utc | 6


Russia did post an image of a prototype drone that they say "washed up on shore" If they found new tech why wouldn't they keep that secret and study it.
They may have just sent a loud message of where it is headed.

Posted by: OhhCanada | Sep 28 2022 13:13 utc | 7

From Rybar, machine translated

A few weeks ago we wrote ( ) about the military columns in the city of Pervomaisky, Kharkiv region, which were going in the direction of the front line.

Now, trains with equipment and personnel are passing through the settlement. Every night after 22 o'clock trains arrive at the Likhachevo railway station located in Pervomaisky.

Part of the equipment is unloaded and sent towards Alekseevka and Balakleya. Other trains are sent further to Lozovaya. All this indicates the preparation of a powerful strike by the Armed Forces of Ukraine from the bridgehead on the right bank of the Oskol in the direction of Svatovo and the territory of the LPR.

The only way to at least temporarily stop the transfer is a massive strike on the station: the object is in the range of the OTRK and long—range MLRS.

At the end of August and at the beginning of September, a large number of Telegram channels provided detailed information and objective evidence of the preparation of the Ukrainian offensive on Balakleya and Izyum. The price of inaction was the "regrouping" in the Kharkiv region.

We really hope that at least now the transfer through the loaded station in Pervomaisky will not be ignored: the scenario may happen again.

Posted by: marko | Sep 28 2022 13:26 utc | 8

It makes me laugh to read the troll posts. Yeah, the Russians are so dumb they are destroying their own energy infrastructure worth many billions of rubles. It's just as believable as the tale that they are shelling the Zaparpzia nuclear power plant so they can contaminate the area they hold, kill their own troops and millions of ethic Russians which Russian troops now spend their own lives to save. Only Nazis are that stupid and insane.

Posted by: ffreeloader | Sep 28 2022 13:26 utc | 9

>how can Europe be so subservient?

They believe in American dream and consider Americans to be their natural masters.

Posted by: marko | Sep 28 2022 13:29 utc | 10

>how can Europe be so subservient?

too much people watching hollywood movies...

Posted by: denazi | Sep 28 2022 13:32 utc | 11

Knowing the players of the game helps divine the strategy. Who owns Putin? Is one to believe he is a free agent?

Posted by: JustAskin | Sep 28 2022 13:41 utc | 12

The masterly 'Whodunnit?' analysis from MoA puts the entire parroting legacy media to shame - and much of the alternative media, too.

Posted by: quasi_verbatim | Sep 28 2022 13:50 utc | 13

How can Europe be subservient? Easy. They are raised on a diet of American TV, music, fashion ,language and internet. Their whole life , from the moment they are born, is infused with Americana. To these dumb Europeans, Europe is just a more colourful Disneyworld - type place , there just to give you an “ethnic” experience.

Posted by: Brother Ma | Sep 28 2022 13:51 utc | 14

I tried on previous thread. Will try again. A short note from Pepe Escobar.

Jake Sullivan and Patrushev are talking/negotiating. Talk requested by the American side.

Two obvious comments. America wants to talk because their side understands their goals cannot be accomplished on the battlefield. Sullivan is a 45 year old punk kid who has never done nothing except to serve Hillary.

Posted by: oldhippie | Sep 28 2022 14:06 utc | 15

Brother Ma | Sep 28 2022 13:51 utc | 16

A collection of individuals, not allowed to rise out of the market to the level of a people, all raised to believe that myths, games, and other juvenile exercises of self-valuation are the stuff of adult reality. That was Baudrillard's thing, I think.

Posted by: sippy the shot glass | Sep 28 2022 14:06 utc | 16

@OhhCanada #2
True, but Ukraine has for more to gain (German support for them is existential) and nothing to lose.
Poland has the gear, the coastline/access and the losing political party replete with nut jobs (Kaczynski, Morawiecki and Sikorski).
The US: I have difficulty believing they would direct conduct this outright act of war, especially in such a heavily monitored, shallow pond like the Baltic. But I could believe tacit or explicit US support for someone else doing it.
And as I posted in a different thread (the b sabotage info one) - France actually benefits from Germany being basically destroyed due to lack of energy - a French geopolitical objective for hundreds of years.

Posted by: c1ue | Sep 28 2022 14:09 utc | 17

Brother Ma | Sep 28 2022 13:51 utc | 16

A collection of individuals, not allowed to rise out of the market to the level of a people, all raised to believe that myths, games, and other juvenile exercises of self-valuation are the stuff of adult reality. That was Baudrillard's thing, I think

Your comment is amazingly correct.

I would add: they remain in infantile stage of development for life.
That is Europe, specially the educated class.

Posted by: marko | Sep 28 2022 14:14 utc | 18

Posted by: young | Sep 28 2022 12:34 utc | 1

You clearly do not live on the European Continent and have so very little idea of what goes on there so I assume you are just another American expressing ignorance in prose............

European Continent is a bigger landmass than USA with a population 2.5 times the size of USA. You presume to state what "Europeans" will tolerate from have no idea.

When you do find out it will be too late because USA may well be expelled from every continent and left to fight it out within what were once its own borders

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Sep 28 2022 14:19 utc | 19

@c1ue | Sep 28 2022 14:09 utc | 19

As I posted on the other thread the perpetrators pride will not allow them to keep a secret.

There will now occur a series of tiny boastful leaks.

Posted by: too scents | Sep 28 2022 14:20 utc | 20

France actually benefits from Germany being basically destroyed due to lack of energy - a French geopolitical objective for hundreds of years.

Where do you people come from ???

France supplies ENERGY to Germany especially Southern Germany from its nuclear reactors. France owns the largest refinery in Germany - LEUNA

France does not benefit at all..........

The ONLY nation that benefits itself is USA and its creature Poland

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Sep 28 2022 14:21 utc | 21

The Danish and the Swedish have one hell of a combat diver tradition...

Posted by: Skåne | Sep 28 2022 14:22 utc | 22

How can Europe be subservient? Easy. They are raised on a diet of American TV, music, fashion ,language and internet. Their whole life , from the moment they are born, is infused with Americana. To these dumb Europeans, Europe is just a more colourful Disneyworld - type place , there just to give you an “ethnic” experience.

Posted by: Brother Ma | Sep 28 2022 13:51 utc | 16

Americans are raised on a diet of American TV which is why they are so fat, lazy, subservient and ready to accept an open border with Mexico. Americana is what has made Americans so retarded and unable to control Congress or that amazing Biden and Harris duo in Washington.

American TV is what made Americans so accepting of FBI running amok and cities trashed by looters.......

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Sep 28 2022 14:25 utc | 23

It seems more than obvious: In retaliation for Russia mobilizing to protect the Donbass´populations after incorporating them in the Federation, the US-NATO has blown North Stream pipelines. Germany and Europe continue degrading and the US benefits more.

Posted by: EDO | Sep 28 2022 14:33 utc | 24

"Cui bono" - who benefits? I was mistaking the fact that Russia somewhat benefits from the pipeline accident (it gets rid of gas that Russia needs to flare) for the likelihood that Russia did it on purpose.

If Russia only needed to flare gas, they would only have destroyed one or two of the pipelines, not three.

Also, the small benefit that Russia gets from flaring is outweighed by the disadvantage of being able to trade opening the pipeline for better relations with Germany.

Since the US had helicopters flying over the area where the explosions happened a day before the explosions, and since the US benefits from these explosions (as do the Poles), I think it's likely Biden green-lighted this (he has dementia and doesn't know what he's doing).

Posted by: Contrarian_Ed | Sep 28 2022 14:36 utc | 25

«Северного потока» just said that they need to inspect the damages and then decide how to fix them. They said they have the expertise and the equipments to do the job.

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Sep 28 2022 14:40 utc | 26

@Paul Greenwood | Sep 28 2022 14:21 utc | 23

Curious about how many Europeans share your view regarding the us and Poland? I'm asking this because there has been a wild discussion on Chinese internet about the possibility of Poland starting a Nazi German thing in the upcoming World War three, and this is why the European countries are all arming up right now.

Posted by: cindy6 | Sep 28 2022 14:41 utc | 27

"how can Europe be so subservient?"
The Q is how come Washington play on Europe's psychological weaknesses so well?

They pet Poland and Baltic states whispering in their ear they're GREAT countries (don't laugh...) and Murica will help them achieve their state of grandeur (against Russia... or Germany).

They hold Germany on a leash reminding them every week it's thanks to Patton's army in 1945 that Germany wasn't swallowed by Uncle Joseph.

For a long time France resisted the American nefarious influence but thanks to coked-up idiots like Sarkozy or Macron (Hollande didn't take coke) France is now a full member of the EU device = a true slave of Uncle Sam.

**Now** the slaves will soon realize they were slaves all along and not partners Washington catered to. How will this end? Badly, but that everyone can see.

Posted by: Nanker | Sep 28 2022 14:41 utc | 28

PG @ 21

US population is roughly 330,000,000. EU population 450,000,000. What are you including to get to 800,000,000 for European continent?

Posted by: oldhippie | Sep 28 2022 14:50 utc | 29

Only gullible fools think Russia blew up their own pipeline. Lucky that there are so many people that rely on television for their spoon fed "news"

Posted by: Bismarck | Sep 28 2022 14:51 utc | 30

The most successful US invasion of the past forty years has been its invasion of Europe. Recall that as late as 2003 some European states were capable of resisting the hegemon at the level of domestic politics. Fast forward to 2022, and the vast majority of the European political class is bought-off or blackmailed, and the entirety of mainstream European media outlets are thoroughly controlled, so that more than 1/2 the population of Europe quite willingly subdues itself to whatever the US determines it will do or suffer, while most of the other half is too lethargic or proper to resist in any meaningful way, and the small minority of still-thinking Europeans can easily be marginalized and arrested by the state if it comes to that.

You have to hand it to the US. Their dominance over Europe is full spectrum, and more secure in 2022 than it has been at any time since the conclusion of WW2.

Posted by: WJ | Sep 28 2022 14:54 utc | 31

I guess @Paul Greenwood with many surprising inside views into the German industry, who lives may be Germany, get's it right. - What shapes now is worse than Versailles and 1945 for Germans. Destroyed houses can be rebuilt. The majority of brains blown empty one cannot just recover. A big part is lost. - What develops now is similar to what happened to the then still existing High-Tech industry in the former DDR after having had split the world with the intentionally started Cold War. Many machines ready to be used, enough functionable workforce, accessible war materials and energy - but out of the sudden the access to the world markets via Hamburg was cut off. Result: the workforce had to escape. My family came to Western Germany on that background. @All: believe me, 90% or more were what we call Wirtschaftsfluechtlinge. They did not run away from some bad commies. Opposite: Stalin needed a neutral but successful Germany to pay for the incredible damages the Nazis had imposed on the SU. He tried to realize that interest of the SU at that time but the "Free West" tried all means to prevent just that. Most of my relatives would have opted to stay there. But it was impossible. There was real hunger there, 1948-1953, around.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Sep 28 2022 15:06 utc | 32

Can anyone imagine how Americans would react if a critical piece of American infrastructure were blown up and a foreign government tried to explain it as America blowing up their own equipment to falsely blame the government the were at odds with. This event was a serious escalation and will likely prove to be someone's very stupid idea. This is how idiots risk nuclear wars that can turn off the lights forever over conflicts that are not worth that risk. If Russia replaced Putin it is more likely the new leader will be more inclined to use nuclear weapons than Putin.

Posted by: Bismarck | Sep 28 2022 15:09 utc | 33

Posted by: Bob | Sep 28 2022 12:50 utc | 5

" the realisation that Russia can move that close without being detected by numerous sensing apparatus."

The pipelines are not equiped with many sensing and monitoring possibilities over that whole distance. However, it's true that the act alone has symbolic value. Someone is capable and willing to attack undersea infrastructure in international waters. It's a first. It itself a major escalation. Why stop there? How to really catch someone, who has clearly the means to come and go underseas carrying serious explosive devices or torpedoes? The game has changed.

Posted by: John Dowser | Sep 28 2022 15:12 utc | 34

No... Lyman... is Russia trying anymore?

Posted by: Ker | Sep 28 2022 15:16 utc | 35

Posted by: ffreeloader | Sep 28 2022 13:26 utc | 11

> Yeah, the Russians are so dumb they are destroying their own energy infrastructure worth many billions of rubles. It's just as believable as the tale that they are shelling the Zaparpzia nuclear power plant so they can contaminate the area they hold, kill their own troops and millions

It wasn't worth much anymore since not anything was moving inside it. Plus it can be repaired of course but not on the short term. In the mean time this event simply puts pressure on an already overheated (or actually very cold?) energy market. Then again, Russia had probably way much better approaches to pause the transport. Maintenance, contracts, quoting sanctions. Blowing it up seems a bit irrational although unclear who will benefit this in the end, on longer term.

Posted by: John Dowser | Sep 28 2022 15:18 utc | 36

John Dowser | Sep 28 2022 15:18 utc | 38

Today's shitlib talking point is to pretend that the future doesn't exist and that the present state as determined by the useless PMC is reality. You need to take ALL of your meds, schizo.

Posted by: sippy the shot glass | Sep 28 2022 15:32 utc | 37

And as I posted in a different thread (the b sabotage info one) - France actually benefits from Germany being basically destroyed due to lack of energy - a French geopolitical objective for hundreds of years.

Posted by: c1ue | Sep 28 2022 14:09 utc | 19

This is just nuts. French policy switched after the 2WW to sticking close to Germany, but c1ue hasn't noticed what happened as recently as 70 years ago.

Posted by: laguerre | Sep 28 2022 15:32 utc | 38

Going by Helmer's take on the blowing up of the Russian pipelines in the Baltic Sea, it would appear from a Polish point of view that it was just as much an attack on Germany's economy as it was on the economy of Russia. Maybe the current Polish PM who is facing an election is a years' time, thought the aiding the destruction of the three pipelines will do his chances of re-election no harm. AS for Germany old grudges die-hard as they say and damaging the Germany economy by disabling the gas pipelines is one way of impinging on the German economy which needs Russian gas.

The Polish and the Danish will get their gas via a Norwegian gas pipeline

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 28 2022 15:33 utc | 39

Does no one here think strategically? It's nothing but narrowly focused complaints, insults and criticism.

The stories of Russian battlefield losses, (self) sabotage, and internal opposition aren't designed to convince anyone (other than the truly stupid) of any particular actions.

Rather, its a broad brush effort to portray the Russians as desperate, thereby setting the logical justification that any escalation is the result of last ditch efforts of a dying regime.

Watch the YT bots engage in animated "discussions" from every DM, CNN et al video clip. They are designed to flood the zone, crowd out reasonable questions and doubts

Why is that important? Well, this is the part most people here understand: the USA is the global apex predator. We instigate, we prevail and we rule because we are driven to win.

And what is our traditional MO? Anyone know the casus belli of the Mexican War? It's very similar to the Civil, Spanish, both WWs and of course WoT.

So we of course will portray the Russians as the culprits as we escalate this war to its full conclusion. QED

Now, why are we so determined to initiate a possible nuclear war? Because of the facts driving the reports coming from the UN, WEF and other organizations which have clearly spelled out our near term future.

Population overshoot, resource depletion and environmental degradation (real water/land issues, not invented agw) are going to end civilizations parry.

We figure it's better to rule in hell rather than live in peace. Sorry, but someone has to eat the shit sandwich, and hopefully that's not us.

Posted by: K9b9 | Sep 28 2022 15:35 utc | 41

I read somewhere that 3 detonations were 'heard'. Whoever performed this operation must have used at least minimal redundancy. If only 3 explosions were detected, it would not be possible that an unexploded, intact, is it still there, with all the fingerprints of the terrorist state?

Posted by: SCan | Sep 28 2022 15:38 utc | 42

The Danish and the Swedish have one hell of a combat diver tradition...

Posted by: Skåne | Sep 28 2022 14:22 utc | 24

Ja, det skulle inte förvåna någon om Sverige har en hand i detta.

(It should not surprise anyone if it comes to light Sweden had a hand in this.)

Posted by: Tichy | Sep 28 2022 15:44 utc | 43

SCan (44)

Apparently, they were so powerful that a Swedish seismologist picked them up on his equipment.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 28 2022 15:44 utc | 44

K9b9 | Sep 28 2022 15:35 utc | 43

Very close to no one here is interested in anything but gossip and speculation about who dun it

They are lapins in the hands of US wargaming and propaganda

They are lucky that the RF is both acting and thinking

Posted by: Gerrard White | Sep 28 2022 15:45 utc | 45

i'll give you one pipeline for one space satellite, and a handful of "advisors" on the side.

Posted by: polarbear4 | Sep 28 2022 15:46 utc | 46

I would like updates from the front but I hear nothing.

Posted by: Tichy | Sep 28 2022 15:47 utc | 47

Here in Canada, I watched CBC 'the National' last night, which I only do when curious as to what government wants us to believe. Since I was fairly certain the pipeline leaks were done by 'the west', I fully expected to see the usual 'It was those evil Ruskies' story. To my surprise there was only a 15 second blurb about some leaks in the pipelines, sandwiched between stories of hurricane Ian and Soccer. I said to my wife, 'must be they haven't gotten their story in order yet, we'll see tomorrow night'.

This morning I read a comment on MOA, linked here, from a certain badrabbit. Although it seems like a stretch AND it's the first time I've seen that handle, if did make me think of what I had said to my wife. The takeaway line, 'Silence from the msm media says it all, they were not ready for this!'

badrabbit comment on moa

I've been reading MOA for years, first time I've posted. Usually skip posters I don't recognize until they have some credibility among the regulars who have helped me make some sense of this mad world. I don't know if I'll ever post again, I'm not an expert on anything and I DO get annoyed with posts that don't really add anything to the discussions, maybe like this one ;)

Posted by: FLenQC | Sep 28 2022 15:49 utc | 48

Just look for people who bet on gas prices rising sharply yesterday.

Posted by: Passerby | Sep 28 2022 15:52 utc | 49

@WJ 33

I agree that the US is hands down winning the propaganda war (in the west at least), and that many people will believe what they are spoon fed in the press . However, I think there will come a point when, enough people start losing their jobs, futures and livelihoods because their former secure, successful, mittelstand firm has closed or severly downsized due to hugely increased input costs, that they look up and look for someone to blame. Add that to the general stress with cost of living rises and you may well have a turning against the US.

People were genuinely suprised here when 'yes, we scan' Obama was caught hacking Merkels' phone; I think what might trigger that change is the US penchant for overreach and taking 'just one more bite ' out of the European cherry so often that the Atlanticts in the German establishment can't contain peoples' anger. I live in hope.

That however, is a shitty road to travel but I cant see anything benign/constructive/collaborative coming out of the US for a long long time to come.

Posted by: Judge Barbier | Sep 28 2022 15:53 utc | 50

polarbear4 | Sep 28 2022 15:46 utc | 48

I’ll trade you one busted pipeline against the deal with Afghanistan

Posted by: Gerrard White | Sep 28 2022 16:01 utc | 51

PG @ 21

US population is roughly 330,000,000. EU population 450,000,000. What are you including to get to 800,000,000 for European continent?

Posted by: oldhippie | Sep 28 2022 14:50 utc | 31

He wrote "European" not "EU".
Europe: 745,173,774 population in 2021
European Union: 447,007,596 in 2021

Posted by: SwissGuy | Sep 28 2022 16:08 utc | 52

... and here what it includes:

Posted by: SwissGuy | Sep 28 2022 16:11 utc | 53

SCan | Sep 28 2022 15:38 utc | 44
Republicofscotland | Sep 28 2022 15:44 utc | 46
“The Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipeline leaks are ~75 kilometers apart (so, two very distinctive incidents). The Danish military has dropped 3 beacons over the leaks to signal the danger. You can see @MarineTraffic data (red circle).
“> The two areas of the leaks is so far apart (~75 km) that natural events (like subsea mudslides or earthquakes) can be almost certainly ruled out. The same goes about ships dragging anchor or fishing nets from trawlers, or a submarine colliding by chance. This is deliberate.
“> Here the Danish geological service: 2 explosions detected. One at 2.03am on Monday, Sep 26, and another at 7.03pm on the same day (~17 hours apart). The first event registered 2.3 on the Richter scale, the second measured 2.1 (No way this wasn't man-made)

GEUS has recorded shaking in the Baltic Sea Published 27-09-2022
The first event registered 2.3 on the Richter scale, the second 2.1 on the Richter scale.
The signals do not resemble signals from earthquakes. They do resemble the signals typically recorded from blasts.
The signals are recorded on GEUS’ two seismographic stations on Bornholm, the station on Stevns as well as on Swedish and German stations.
The Geological Survey of Denmark and Greenland (GEUS) is responsible for monitoring and locating earthquakes and other seismological events in Denmark, Greenland and the Faroe islands.
…..maps of the locations and the seismographic stations. Maps: GEUS and Google Maps 

[yes. I’ve already posted this. But it’s obvious barflies aren’t reading, only posting…]

Posted by: Melaleuca | Sep 28 2022 16:14 utc | 54

Internal sabotage of the war effort by elements of the ruling class inside RF federal state. The case of deserters fromm bourgeois families.
Meanwhile true donbass/russian heroes are holding Lyman, for weeks now, without any sign of reinforcement. Only MOD statements competing with the ukrops for the "kingdom of unicorns" with zillions of enemy tanks destroyed every day.

"Naturally, in our country both the Border Guard Service, the FSB, and the Ministry of Internal Affairs will traditionally turn out to be “unwanted”. (How all of them - and the Defense Ministry, SVR, etc., who joined them - turned out to be "beyond criticism" after the enchanting failure of "SVO" in February-March of this year). - There will be no one to punish.

But our fighting army, and the suffering rear will receive a "double demotivator":
- firstly, the difference between "first-class citizens" (who are able to escape, which costs a lot of money) and "cattle" who cannot escape, even if he wants to, will be clearly demonstrated;
- secondly, enemy propaganda will not fail to "highlight" this situation from all possible sides and present it to the Russian user with comments: "here, rogue idiots, look - all your "elite" is having fun and waiting out the war, in order to return later and to live in clover, and here you are left without arms and legs, not to mention the victims."

Posted by: Kareem | Sep 28 2022 16:15 utc | 55

Financial Info Re Nord Stream:

"According to Gazprom, the costs of the onshore pipelines in Russia and Germany were around €6 billion.[113] The offshore section of the project cost €8.8 billion.[114] Thirty percent of the financing was raised through equity provided by shareholders in proportion to their stakes in the project, while 70 percent was obtained from external financing by banks.[115]

There were two tranches of fundraising.[116][117] The first tranche, totaling €3.9 billion, includes a €3.1 billion, 16-year facility covered by export credit agencies and an €800 million, 10-year uncovered commercial loan to be serviced by earnings from the transportation contracts. A further €1.6 billion is covered by French credit insurance company Euler Hermes, €1 billion by German loan guarantee program UFK, and €500 million by Italian export credit agency SACE SpA. Crédit Agricole is the documentation bank and bank facility agent. Société Générale is intercreditor agent, Sace facility agent, security trustee and model bank. Commerzbank is the Hermes facility agent, UniCredit is the UFK facility agent, Deutsche Bank is the account bank, and Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corporation is the technical and environmental bank.[115][116] The financial advisers were Société Générale, Royal Bank of Scotland (ABN Amro), Dresdner Kleinwort (Commerzbank), and Unicredit.[118][119] The legal adviser to Nord Stream was White & Case, and legal adviser for the lenders was Clifford Chance.[116]

For Nord Stream 2, the loan from Uniper, Wintershall Dea, OMV, Engie, and Royal Dutch Shell covers 50 percent of the projected costs of €9.5 billion. The rest is being financed by Gazprom.[72]"

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Sep 28 2022 16:20 utc | 56

Meanwhile, in other news….

Here’s another pipeline the US is busting to burst, or is the Polish ?

Posted by: Gerrard White | Sep 28 2022 16:23 utc | 57

Looks like the US/EU will be gearing up the propaganda machine to blame the Russians. Current CNN headline:

US warned European allies this summer that Nord Stream pipelines could be attacked

Should be:

US warned European allies this summer it would destroy Nord Stream pipelines.

I am inclined to think it was the Poles as they recently have drudged up old hatreds and grievances toward the Germans.

Posted by: Erelis | Sep 28 2022 16:24 utc | 58

@ 55

So all of European Russia. OK.

If you want to be a stickler it still comes short of 2.5 times pop US.

Yes, I know the continent is not the EU.

Posted by: oldhippie | Sep 28 2022 16:27 utc | 59

Let’s face it. The sabotage/destruction of NS1 and NS2 has the signature of the U.S. all over it. The motives, means and the technical ability are all there. Whether the manpower actually involved was Ukrainian, Polish, British or Danish (or a combination thereof) is irrelevant. The hardware, logistics and planning were certainly provided by the U.S.
On an earlier thread here somebody (I forgot who) wrote a very short comment along the lines that blowing up the Nord Stream pipelines was the stupidest thing the U.S. could ever have possibly done. At face value, I believe that is absolutely correct.

Attacking German/Russian infrastructure, torpedoing German and thus also European energy security, inevitably plunging the entire EU into a massive recession and causing huge swaths of Germany’s industrial capacity to shut down and/or fail entirely is essentially an act of war. If in the European public awareness this ever clearly linked to the U.S. then it will be a permanent public relations disaster from which the U.S. will never recover. It can pack up it’s nuclear toys and revert to it's former “splendid isolation” as a backwater of the world.

However, what if this act of utter stupidity also represents one of the most massive tactical blunders the U.S. has ever made?

Did it ever occur to the U.S. leadership that attacking BOTH German and Russian infrastructure and vital interests might actually have the opposite effect?

The Russians have stated that they have the know how and ability to repair the pipelines. It will probably be a long, slow job. But the pipelines are 1.300 kilometers in length. Only a short section needs to be replaced. What happens if Germany and Russia end up working together towards getting both pipelines working again? What if Germany simply asserts its own national and economic interests to supersede any (non-working) sanctions against the Russian Federation and imports all the gas it needs for itself and its European allies?

This is all conjecture, of course. But if a scenario like this comes about, it could be the beginning a real strategic partnership between German high tech and the sheer endless resources the Russia Federation can supply. This is precisely what the U.S. has been trying to derail for decades now and one of its worst fears. A German/Russian partnership would establish a veritable powerhouse the U.S. would never be able to dominate.

The alternative, of course is either another endless “Cold War” or the bitter reality of an even colder nuclear winter.

Posted by: GreyRaven | Sep 28 2022 16:33 utc | 60

Claiming Russia damaged the pipelines is like claiming Anne Frank orchestrated the Holocaust.

Posted by: Nico | Sep 28 2022 16:35 utc | 61

FLenQC | Sep 28 2022 15:49 utc | 50
>…”Silence from the msm media says it all…..
Mmmm. No. There’s HEAPS of happenings that don’t make a media blimp.
Or are quickly buried.
That some were quick to twitter and telegram with the information captured here by b, means those that know, know it was the US.
What the US and its media muppets want now is for the whole episode to be forgotten.
Just watch. Can they get people to forget?
And watch. If people insist on remembering… the RussiaRussiaRussia mantra will kick in.
Passerby | Sep 28 2022 15:52 utc | 51
Follow the money….. who traded what and when. In fact, look at the NS shareholders… they might have seen a chance to recoop their losses from a stranded asset……

Posted by: Melaleuca | Sep 28 2022 16:48 utc | 62

Why is there still gas bubbling to the surface? Does Russia not have a valve to shut it down?

Posted by: Nico | Sep 28 2022 16:49 utc | 63

An internal tug of war in America.
Some folks will be happy with the CIA's act of terrorism, while some folks will be pissed that it hastens the demise of the old empire and their monopoly flash-money.

Out with the old and in with the new, AKA, Trading Places.

Posted by: WTFUD | Sep 28 2022 16:53 utc | 64

U.S. Right-wing populist political reaction to the pipeline bombing.

This may surprise you.

This is a link to a video of Carlson Tucker, a popular Fox News political commentator, on TV yesterday, talking about the pipeline bombing.

The youtube video of his show - which I linked to above - got almost 900K views in one day.

Tucker is the most-viewed cable news commentator in the U.S., and regularly addresses 3.2 million people per show.

He's sort of aligned with Trump, but mainly he's a conservative nationalist of the old Republican school.

Stay with it a few mins; he starts out with some environmental impact stuff just to score political points, but then hits the red meat.

No punches are pulled, and a lot of you MoA people will be shocked to see what's on U.S. MSM on this topic.

MoA viewers from Germany especially should watch this to get a sense of the NeoCons .vs. the nationalists rift in U.S. politics.

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Sep 28 2022 16:57 utc | 65

Yeah looks like West is already in line to blame Russia. As German government has said it looks like damage to the pipelines is irreparable and suggesting Russia did this. If German lemmings do this then you can bet rest of the West will do as well. Germans are really turning into those girls in movies that get off being abused. "Punish me harder, daddy!"

I can't wait for their theory of how Russia accomplished this. As it seems submarines could not possibly have entered this area. So it had to have been Russian boats carrying tons of explosives and navigating shallow near shore waters without Dutch, German and Polish navies even realizing they are there. Scott Ridley must be making angry phone calls as to why his team never thought of this movie plot.

Russia has called up the UNSC to meet over this incident as well. Seems there are just too many cooks in the West kitchen and probably nobody really is calling the shots. There is no order, just chaos. A nuclear incident is most likely next on the dock. Just smells like pure desperation. The forecast of winter and economic future must be absolutely grim.

Posted by: Comandante | Sep 28 2022 16:58 utc | 66

@ 63 Nico

Why is there still gas bubbling to the surface?

That's the new Danish experimental 'hot tub'

Posted by: WTFUD | Sep 28 2022 17:00 utc | 67

Comandante | Sep 28 2022 16:58 utc | 66
“……I can't wait for their theory of how Russia accomplished this…..
Putler himself did it. They even have photos.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Sep 28 2022 17:12 utc | 68

Christoforou has an interesting take on the pipeline today:

Nord Stream Cui Bono? Blinken, in no one's interest. Baltic Pipe. Russia's final warning. Update 1

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 28 2022 17:13 utc | 69

The people responsible for the pipeline blowup will be the only interested party that is not blamed.

Those who did it will have made sure that they will never be mentioned.

War is all about deception.

This article tells you about some of the incredible deception that occurred in the second world war:

Modern wars involve incredible deception.

Posted by: JK | Sep 28 2022 17:17 utc | 70

@ Paul Greenwood | Sep 28 2022 14:19 utc | 19

I sure hope you are right about EU possibly slipping its leash.

I certainly doubt it. But, you contribute much here and always seem to know what you’re talking about. So, thanks for the reason to believe not all hope is lost.

@ Nico | Sep 28 2022 16:35 utc | 61


Posted by: dfg | Sep 28 2022 17:23 utc | 71

The Anglosphere has done this before. As soon as Britain entered WWI, they cut the Germans' transatlantic cables.

Posted by: Lysias | Sep 28 2022 17:26 utc | 72

Maybe the stage is set for a peace deal. Russia agrees to cease & desist on supplying Europe with gas, in return for acceptance of the four applicant oblasts. Is that enough of a compromise to send everyone home happy?

Posted by: Newbie-Wan Kenobi | Sep 28 2022 17:30 utc | 73

My guess is that the governments of all those involved here know exactly who did blew up the pipelines, and probably why.

Russia has lost potential leverage over Germany and hence the EU should they choose a path of peace negotiations. Also money and a route back to normal relations. The engineering difficulties of a repair are I belive quite significant and cannot be done before next year.

The Uk will be on its economic knees soon so does not want a Brexit blowbackand would be quite happy with a crippled EU. Truss has form on being both Russophobic and stupid. Poland has a new gas pipeline of its own. The Ukraine wants to control the flow of Russian gas via the pipelines which cross its territory and the Z regime is dead set against peace. Who can guess what the USA wants with its senile president and policy set by a constantly shifting set of establishment interests and cabals.Nothing that would help the EU or Russia, that is for sure.

To believe Russia did this one would need to find it credible that Russian assets either set charges when the pipeline was built or managed to sneak into near Danish territorial waters without detection -where a long established Naval base and undersea listening and detection capabilities have been in place since the cold war started. Alternatively you might think a recent (days old) USN/NATO exercise in the exact same area is a bit of a coincicence.

I doubt German intelligence services have not investigated all this and are able to point the finger - motive, means and opportunity. What European governments do about this remains to be seen.

Posted by: marcjf | Sep 28 2022 17:36 utc | 74

@ Melaleuca | Sep 28 2022 16:14 utc | 54

Thank you so much for your answer. I certainly had outdated information.
And you're correct: I didn't read your previous post on the subject. Sorry.

Posted by: SCan | Sep 28 2022 17:47 utc | 75

U.S. Congress approved a $12 billion package of aid for Ukraine to cover for the first quarter of fiscal 2023 (which starts October 1). Over $4 billion of that is designated for the Ukraine government's basic operating expenses for next 3 months.

Appropriations to Ukraine by US gov since February have now exceeded Russia's entire defence budget for the year.

Posted by: jayc | Sep 28 2022 17:47 utc | 76

@Newbie-Wan Kenobi | Sep 28 2022 17:30 utc | 73

Russia doesn't care which country accepts the referendum or not. Nothing new on the planet. And more referendums will come, I can't see Odessa and other places being left to Zeli/nato. If they don't reach Transnistria, they'll get a new Donbass style of killing there soon. The new sanctions Ursula announced today will probably be the last set, they'll break EU completely.
I keep waiting to see a change on the war side of the things, where they keep running around with minimal results, 100-300 kills per day. Maybe next month Putin accepts that this way doesn't work with terrorists and puppets

Posted by: rk | Sep 28 2022 17:53 utc | 77

@60 GreyRaven
Here in Germany, currently the inflation rate of daily items is up to 50%. Next year is going to be very hard for many Germans.
I think that there will be a new government in Germany in the next year. Once the average German figures out that the Greens were doing everything possible to hurt them, that party reverts back to it's core constituency at 5%. The SPD will probs not survive this.
I also think that in the medium term the US will not be able to recover from this PR-disaster anymore. Possibly also Poland.
And yes, once we have a new government, Russia and Germany can cooperate and fix the lines. The technical knowhow is obviously there.
And I hope that from then on we only see the US on it's way out the door. It's a f. disgusting nation.

Posted by: tunabe | Sep 28 2022 17:54 utc | 78

Great video by Mercouris. His closing goes along with my thinking: "the last 24 hours have taken this crisis to levels we have never ever seen... we are now very very close to a Cuban missile crisis, except we don't have JFK (we have Brandon)"

Posted by: Comandante | Sep 28 2022 18:02 utc | 79

Posted by: Comandante | Sep 28 2022 16:58 utc | 66
The theory that the sea-water corrodes the pipes and yields them unreliable is BS. It's probs just German Greens talking points to prevent repairs.
I worked on the installation of offshore windfarms in the North Sea. Those steel structures have so-called cathodic protection all over them, to prevent exactly this from happening, since the steel is continually in the sea water. I would be very surprised if these lines did not have that, since the concrete on the outside is not impervious, so they must have a way of deflecting the corrosion. With cathodic protection in place there is much less of a problem.

Posted by: tunabe | Sep 28 2022 18:03 utc | 80

> how can Europe be so subservient?

Simple. They have the programming of monkeys, as do virtually everyone else. Might makes right and people obey.

Humans And Monkeys Share Machiavellian Intelligence
October 25, 2007
University of Chicago
When it comes to their social behavior, people sometimes act like monkeys, or more specifically, like rhesus macaques, a type of monkey that shares with humans strong tendencies for nepotism and political maneuvering, according to new research. "After humans, rhesus macaques are one of the most successful primate species on our planet; our Machiavellian intelligence may be one of the reasons for our success," says one of the scientists.

Posted by: Drapetomaniac | Sep 28 2022 18:15 utc | 81

Posted by: tunabe | Sep 28 2022 17:54 utc | 78

“And I hope that from then on we only see the US on it's way out the door.”

* * *

Here in Austrian Alps the inflation rate has reached 9.3% and is expected to increase to 11% before the end of the year. With all respect for what the Greens were originally fighting for, the idiocy of their current position is rapidly becoming clear – both in Germany and Austria.

The U.S. and (presumably) Poland have perpetrated a massive, self-inflicted catastrophe upon themselves, due to the perennial idiocy both countries so blatantly demonstrate. I agree that eventually a pragmatic and workable cooperation between Germany and the Russian Federation can develop.

At that point the U.S. will be out of the door of Europe entirely and Germany will never make the same mistakes twice again. This is a lesson the U.S. has failed to realize.

Let the Americans steep in their own lunacy until someone puts them out of their misery.

Posted by: GreyRaven | Sep 28 2022 18:19 utc | 82

Posted by: marcjf | Sep 28 2022 17:36 utc | 74
Why don't you name the main suspect...USA??
Russia sabotaging its own pipeline is YOUR aluminum hat ❗️
The press worldwide call the child by its name!
From the lie announces heavy sanctions for the offender country
And that....this woman only does that when it's already clear that it was Russia!
Imagine the disgrace..... it turns out it was.... ❓❓🤣
ERGO: Does it have to be Russia, NO MATTER how ❗️
The result of the investigation is therefore clear, dear community ❗️
Well, the Baltic Sea is one of the best monitored bodies of water on this planet. Not only on the surface, where no ship is allowed to move without being noticed at all times, from both sides. Also underwater, where sonar and underwater microphones are used to monitor movements of submarines.
The first country to be taken off the list without too much hesitation is Russia ‼Why? Even the biggest NATO friend would have to admit that sabotaging the pipelines only relieves political pressure on EU governments, especially Germany's; this cannot be in the Russian interest ‼
On the contrary, in view of the demonstrations in the country, where what was demanded "to open Nord Stream II !!"
Seen in this way, even the federal government would have an interest in ending these demands with the sabotage ‼
Technically executable only with combat swimmers! Who owns these units ?
In alphabetical order Germany, Denmark, Finland, France, Great Britain, Italy, Norway, Austria, Russia, Sweden, Switzerland, South Africa and the United States.
In any case, it is clear that NATO headquarters in Brussels should know just as much who is responsible as the Russians. All monitoring data from all neighboring NATO countries converge in Brussels, and that of all places in the Baltic Sea, where presumably NO herring lay eggs without being monitored and no one has data that would clarify this attack, is extremely unlikely.
From this arises another question. Because information that is available, possibly multiple times, can only be kept secret if the owners of this information cooperate. In other words, NATO's surveillance data is only under control as long as the political approval of those involved is assured. Or, to put it a little more bluntly, undertaking such an act of sabotage against the will of the federal government and keeping it secret borders on the impossible ‼
The Bundeswehr should also have some microphones hanging in the Baltic Sea
Who announced measures in advance ❓
Considered as a criminal, there would immediately be a main suspect:
The announced ❗️
Who has the means ❗️
Who has the benefit of the deed ❗️
Who was on site during the period and switched off his locating signal!
There is no question that the USA has a great interest in preventing Russian raw material deliveries to Germany in the long term. The US is on the verge of becoming Europe's largest LNG supplier. The billions of euros that went to Russia for energy supplies up until last year are now going in large part to the United States.
However, the US also has a geostrategic interest in driving a wedge between Germany and Russia. You kill two birds with one stone - the old enemy Russia and the old competitor Germany.
If you were a criminal, the case would actually be obvious. You have a suspect who has the means and a motive and who has at least indirectly announced the crime in the past. But of all things, this suspect plays no role, at least in public communication. Isn't that amazing?
BUT : Amazing is also
The lie IMMEDIATELY announced "strictest sanctions" WITHOUT allegedly knowing who the perpetrator was
So so
We can be curious what fairy tales we get to hear,
but it will probably stay with the ALUHUTTHESE :
Russia is shooting at itself too
addendum :
The German Biological Research Institute, when asked whether they had recorded any abnormalities (whoever listens to the songs of the porpoises also records any explosions), ended in a loop of "is not in the house", "I don't know" and "I can't Find". An indication that alternative data sources are already being sealed off, which in turn indicates that German authorities were involved ❗️
Because if it had been an action against the will of the federal government, it would have an interest in keeping those loopholes open for real information, where it can itself then refer to the famous credible deniability.
Find out that there are also contributions from the AFD in my account, like the linken and SPD too....
Swinging the AFD mace for lack of arguments...
Or simply follow the ALUHUT theory of our press....
Russia hangs itself 😂
By the way, has anyone read a statement from the USA about this?
Almost ALL governments in the western world (Asian people don't get to listen anyway) have spoken out..
USA as far as I know NOT until now !!!

Posted by: Mo3 | Sep 28 2022 18:21 utc | 83

It is amazing that Russian responses to this sabotage are so weak.
Now, The West knows it can be even more aggressive.

Posted by: marko | Sep 28 2022 18:29 utc | 84

(Google Translate)
The Times: "Explosives deposited by Russian drones"

The British newspaper Times cites British sources that speak of a Russian action carried out with underwater drones that would have launched the explosives into the sea weeks before they were detonated.

Posted by: anon2020 | Sep 28 2022 18:33 utc | 85

Posted by: anon2020 | Sep 28 2022 18:33 utc | 85

Makes zero sense.

Why destroy your leverage?

Why destroy your leverage in NATO waters?

Posted by: WJ | Sep 28 2022 18:35 utc | 86

Mo3 @83--

Yesterday, the Outlaw US Empire in the form of Blinken confirmed its responsibility by his quick denial and obfuscation by asking whose interests would be served then answering nobody's. Biden fulfilled his threat made back in February likely in response to Putin's Mobilization Speech vow that only I concentrate upon.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 28 2022 18:35 utc | 87

Poland urges its citizens to leave Russia and not travel there

Intel Slava Z
🇪🇪🇷🇺⚡Estonia urges its citizens to leave Russia and not travel there

Intel Slava Z
🇷🇴🇧🇬🇷🇺⚡Romania and Bulgaria urge their citizens to leave Russia immediately

Posted by: Mo3 | Sep 28 2022 18:36 utc | 88

I believe US is preparing world for a direct attack upon Russia.

Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Bulgaria, Romania, US have all told citizens to leave Russia immediately and not to travel there.

White House spokesman just said that the "Consequences of Russian annexation of Southern and Eastern Ukraine will be real and extraordinary."

What do you think "real" and "extraordinary" means?

Posted by: WJ | Sep 28 2022 18:38 utc | 89

Posted by: marko | Sep 28 2022 18:29 utc | 84

“It is amazing that Russian responses to this sabotage are so weak.”

* * *

Dude, you have ostensibly succumbed to your “trollist” demands for immediate gratification.

That is not the way the Russian Federation works. Without question, the price will be fully paid, but the Russians will decide upon when, where and who.

You can be assured, that the penalty will be surprising, painful and, presumably, deeply embarrassing.

It will be like getting massively kicked in the balls with all your girlfriends watching.

Posted by: GreyRaven | Sep 28 2022 18:39 utc | 90

WJ @89--

Well, what do you think Putin meant when he said this at the end of his Mobilization Speech:

"It is in our historical tradition, in the fate of our people, to stop those who are striving for world domination, who threaten to dismember and enslave our Motherland, our Fatherland. We will do it now, and so it will be."

Looks like the pretenses will now be dropped. Will either Putin or Biden ask for an overt declaration of war or will what's already transpired suffice?

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 28 2022 18:45 utc | 91

91 Cont'd--

Not that it matters, but public opinion here in Outlaw US Empire would be very decisively against war with Russia.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 28 2022 18:48 utc | 92

WJ | Sep 28 2022 18:38 utc | 89

US has started the idea that Russia, losing the war, will mobilize the entire population, including foreigners with double citizenship. The rest won't be allowed to leave or arrested.

Now all puppets repeat the message. However I doubt any Romanians are in Russia, they're big haters. Maybe a student or two. And Bulgaria might have 5-10. Meaningless. Also this is the 4-5th time US asked their citizens to leave Russia quickly

Posted by: rk | Sep 28 2022 18:54 utc | 93

I have to wonder, if only slightly, because of the USA's ill-prepared non-response to the pipeline attack, that it is some rogue or unsanctioned action.

Okay, wondering over.

I always find it funny when folks start handing out iodine pills. Like handing out a band-aid for a beheading.

Posted by: gottlieb | Sep 28 2022 18:56 utc | 94

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 28 2022 18:45 utc | 91

“Well, what do you think Putin meant when he said this at the end of his Mobilization Speech…”

* * *

Neither Napoleon, the Third Reich, nor NATO were or are ever going to bring Russia to its knees. The U.S. and its vassals are being stopped in their tracks. They will either desist or suffer their own destruction.

It is a simple as that.

Posted by: GreyRaven | Sep 28 2022 18:56 utc | 95

IMO, the latest developments in the Baltic Sea, if confirmed ( still no official western precise damage assessment , which is for the least curious ) would be very far reaching (as already mentioned by barflies on this blog). they may put a term to the latest hype on distributed international energy conduits be it for oil, gas, electricity, etc ... and especially using undersea assets.
Generalized use of remote controlled/Autonomous anonymous ( false flag bearers) vehicles jeopardizes any sustainable stable energy providing and distribution environment.
Imagine what would have happened if the Baltic sea damage occured in plain winter freeze season. It looks like a first warning to change course of investments ?

Posted by: Go Figure | Sep 28 2022 18:59 utc | 96

Go Figure | Sep 28 2022 18:59 utc | 96

Natoland said they can't go there before all gas escapes. It will last at least a week, apparently. Russia wasn't invited

Posted by: rk | Sep 28 2022 19:02 utc | 97

Posted by: Bismarck | Sep 28 2022 15:09 utc | 33

Isnt that the truth of every war that the US has involved itself in. Self sabotage and blame the other guy. the only issue here is that there is a potential rouge group amongst the US cabal that decided not to clue in the other members in case they may balk at such a reckless step. Rest assured that no actor outside the US will have done this act without the blessing of some high ups at DC or Langley. The Polish ex Foreign Minister just thanked the US in a recent tweet

As far as the gas bubbling is concerned. It is an unfortunate aspect of undersea pipelines that the gas pressure inside is actually used to preserve the integrity of the pipe fighting against the seas pressure at the bottom. It is easier to crush an empty pipe than one with product inside, just like a can of drink is easier to squeeze when empty. This is why the NS" was pressurised even when it was not transmitting gas. The Russian will have to shut it down now leading to water ingress and potentially loss of the entire pipe for a considerable distance. In an ordinary situation the pipeline owners would be able to quickly deploy a clamp to cover a leak but since these were definitely explosives the damage will be too geat to put what is essentially a bandage around a leak. Whoever did this wanted to make sure that even in 3 years the pipes would not get fixed, They really wanted to hurt the Germans for years not months.

Talking about hurting the Germans, I read somewhere that the Germans are contractually obliged to pay Russia a certain amount of money for the gas in NS2 even when they are not taking any. This is a common feature of most gas sales contracts, to protect the investor in said infrastructure. So in essence the Germans are being double fucked as they owe Russia for the gas even when they are not taking it as the fault for not using the gas comes entirely from their side, The Russians will be wanting their money I'm sure somewhere down the line. It truly is a tragedy for Germany. After their economy tanks, the US investors will be itching to buy shares in their jewel companies like Daimler Benz, VW BMW, Bosch for pennies on the dollar. It truly is fatal be be a US ally as Kissinger said.

Posted by: DaVinci | Sep 28 2022 19:02 utc | 98

I don't think a declaration of war would pass either House of Congress. So they would have to bring about a situation where they could claim the U.S. has been attacked.

I don't think an attack on a NATO ally would be sufficient. If you read the North Atlantic Treaty carefully, Article 5 does not oblige members to go to war. It only calls upon members to take what they deem appropriate action after one of them is attacked.

Posted by: Lysias | Sep 28 2022 19:13 utc | 99

Posted by: marko | Sep 28 2022 18:29 utc | 84

At this stage, it’s up to the EU, especially Germany, to at least change their diplomatic position and start speaking out against this American orchestrated attack on the whole of the EU. What measures should RF take to support EU gas delivery when, for whatever reason, Stepan Borrell and von der Bandera are effectively party (after the fact) to the sabotage and interpret it as yet another opportunity to spit on RF.

Supposedly there are some high level US-RF doomsday negotiations going on behind the scenes but who knows.

What we can see suggests that RF has escalated on its side by switching to referenda and formal integration of liberated territory that wants it. RF is mobilising to secure liberated territory and free up the real military for frontline duties. RF has also adopted the Iranian Shahed 136, which seems to have cause quite a stir on the pro-UA side.

If we step back for a second, cutting the pipelines was a likely US escalation if they couldn’t get what they want on the Ukrainian front ... Biden’s words from just before SMO suggest as much.

EU compradors are going along with it because that’s what compradors do.

Posted by: anon2020 | Sep 28 2022 19:14 utc | 100

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