Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 17, 2022

Ukraine - Dissecting Some War Propaganda News Items - Addendum

This is a follow-up to yesterday's piece about Reuters unfounded propaganda claims and distribution:

Ukraine - Dissecting Some War Propaganda News Items

Reuters via Yahoo:

Multiple bodies found at mass burial site in Ukraine's Izium with rope around necks


bigger

 

Hours later:

Advisory - Story has been withdrawn - Multiple bodies found at mass burial site in Ukraine's Izium with rope around necks


bigger

While Yahoo and others have deleted the body of the story, its false headline is still up.

Repeating the closing sentences of yesterday's pamphlet:

It is not the 'fog of war' that clouds such new reporting. It is the propaganda that was ordered up to incite the 'western' population against Russia and its citizens and soldiers.

Without further backup and proof one can not, and should not, believe any news item coming from the Ukrainian and other wars.

Added (6:10 UTC):

Interestingly the British Telegraph is more skeptical than the 'British' news agency Reuters:

Inside Izyum – and the Russian command centre destroyed by Himars missiles

Anton Herashenko, an advisor to the Ukrainian interior ministry, told the BBC on Thursday that about 1,000 bodies had been found in Izyum and that more civilians had died there than in Bucha.

The Telegraph did not see any evidence of that scale of death during a visit on Thursday. Hrigory[, a 63-year-old civil engineer ,] denied knowledge of any war crimes.

“We didn’t interact with them, and they didn’t interact with us,” he said of the Russians. “From what I know, there wasn’t detentions, executions, torture.”

“There were a lot of young men who would say ‘we won’t shoot any bullets,’” he added.

And another one from the Telegraph:

'Tortured' bodies unearthed in mass graves of liberated town Izyum

Oleksandr Filchakov, the head of the Kharkiv prosecutor's office, said some showed signs of torture. Reporters at the scene did not see proof of that.

Posted by b on September 17, 2022 at 4:53 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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It must have been a very, ve-e-ery long rope indeed to have gone around the necks of 440 victims.

Maybe that spelling error is why Reuters and others withdrew the story and not because the photograph made clear that the bodies had been placed in individual grave sites in what clearly is a cemetery, albeit one hastily created.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 17 2022 5:34 utc | 1

This sort of propaganda pushing smells of desperation and it is becoming such a pattern of stirring public sentiment that it has lost a bit of power from overuse.

That said, the lines showing respect for the "grace of monarchy" shows that some are quite happy with the God of Mammon "culture" of the West.

King Chuck and Pope Frank are stellar examples of human leadership..../snark....more like patriarchal curtain holders for the real money mafia adjusting levers.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 17 2022 5:50 utc | 2

Kiev passes off dead Ukrainian troops as victims of Russian ‘repressions’ — Civic Chamber
As Usual


Ukrainian authorities are attempting to pass off Ukrainian soldiers killed in action in the Kharkov Region as victims of alleged repressions by Russia, member of the Russian Civic Chamber Alexander Malkevich told TASS on Friday.
"We are being shown multiple graves, they begin to dig them up, show the bodies. Actually, Russian troops and frequently the officials from military-civilian administrations were burying those killed Ukrainian soldiers that were abandoned on a battlefield by their so-called comrades. Now they are being passed off as the victims of Russian repressions while actually those are the Ukrainians whom their so-called comrades-in-arms didn’t care about," he said.

Posted by: La Bastille | Sep 17 2022 5:55 utc | 3

Cynical tactic by the MSM:

Story 1: "Pope gives birth to three-headed martian"
Story 2: "Withdrawn: Pope gives birth to three-headed martian"
Story 3: "You know when we said 'Pope gives birth to three-headed martian', well that might have been a fib".

Effect: Us: "whatever happened to that three-headed martian the Pope gave birth to?"

Posted by: Patroklos | Sep 17 2022 5:56 utc | 4

When ukies lost 1700 soldiers in two days, during "offensive" on Herson area, and rest ran away, I really wonder, what happebd with bodies?

Posted by: preseren3 | Sep 17 2022 5:58 utc | 5

Do Reuters and Yahoo have any representative in Russia? If so, they should be immediately arrested and put on trial for this grievous slander.

Posted by: BM | Sep 17 2022 6:03 utc | 6

The ever escalating lies is, indeed, a sign of desperation. Any child can see that this was a hastily created military cemetery where great effort was made to respectfully bury the dead. So….now the war party needs to lie about lurid details.


Useful to reread this older article from MoA on the subject of bald faced lies;
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/04/the-media-war-on-truthful-reporting-and-legitimate-opinions-a-documentary.html

Posted by: Exile | Sep 17 2022 6:40 utc | 7

Radio 4 still plugging the Izium cemetery like crazy.

Posted by: Kaiama | Sep 17 2022 7:00 utc | 8

This is what the MSM does,
No matter what your fight is,
The legacy, corporate media will lie and obfuscate.
A day, or days, later,
It will offer a retraction (sometimes)
But the damage has already been done!

It’s the same thing Trump went through.
Print the slanderous lie,
Wait for the push back,
Deny everything.

Nanci Pelosi call it the wrap up smear.
And she would know.

Posted by: Cadence Calls | Sep 17 2022 7:07 utc | 9

Isn't it a waste of time pondering over what the western MSM write or say?

Posted by: mnr | Sep 17 2022 7:16 utc | 10

On a side note: a much more relevant aspect is missing from the current reporting: Amnesty's report on Wolodomir Selensky abusing civilians as human shields.

Which, when you think it through, has a direct connection to the graves now found.

Posted by: Marvin | Sep 17 2022 7:16 utc | 11

the more embarrassed at reality the Empire Establishment becomes, the more Hollywood Movie the propaganda becomes. The emotional response it generates must be high enough to override rational thought. The danger is that the striving for high emotional response drives the propaganda into comical caricature territory, thus undermining itself.

I believe this is where Russia's propaganda effort lies = permit the empires propaganda to work against itself - which it is bound to do as it goes thru the process of collapse.

Lawyers and politicians believe reality is located in the world of the mind. Engineers believe reality is located in material physical world. Thus the difference in the bottom line = consensus of opinion (successful propaganda = reality) vs objective material measurement (sets of objective mesurements = pin pricks of actual reality that belie illusion)

/sorry .. meandering pretentious thought .. triggered by a sense of there being generally too much significance about what folks imagine and not enough about integrity of info.

Posted by: mijj | Sep 17 2022 7:23 utc | 12

Discussing the failures of westie false and fake news not to say lies is equivalent to answering to trolls - you play into their hands

It will neither disprove what can not be proved, nor will it persuade either those who produce such lies or those who consume them

By replying you enter into the circle of hell which deals in the false - and this is all the westies wish for - to distract others from the truth and to oblige them to play their game

Posted by: Gerrard White | Sep 17 2022 7:24 utc | 13

@mijj | Sep 17 2022 7:23 utc | 12

Lawyers and politicians believe reality is located in the world of the mind. Engineers believe reality is located in material physical world. Thus the difference in the bottom line = consensus of opinion (successful propaganda = reality) vs objective material measurement (sets of objective mesurements = pin pricks of actual reality that belie illusion)
Thank you, this is very well put and extremely important.

Propaganda is a war on reality and truth. Truth comes from evidence and reason and does indeed exist exclusively in the physical world, not in minds.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 17 2022 7:38 utc | 14

@Gerrard White | Sep 17 2022 7:24 utc | 13

In science you make progress by falsifying hypotheses by means of the scientific method. In a war like this it is important to compare the propaganda claims with the reality on the ground (or in the ground as in this case), and expose the propaganda for what it is. By peeling away the lies you get closer to the truth about the war.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 17 2022 7:45 utc | 15

This sort of propaganda pushing smells of desperation and it is becoming such a pattern of stirring public sentiment that it has lost a bit of power from overuse.
...
Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 17 2022 5:50 utc | 2

Agreed, strange to include a photograph whose ordered crosses, identifying information, and even flowers, speaks unequivocally of at least a precessional respect for the fallen. Not a place to dispose of the evidence of darkest misconduct.

The Propaganda Multipliers are despicable snuff fiends, they’re only backing away from this story because it is self-evidently false, and getting caught in too many lies would be inherently detrimental to their lying, snuff-pedalling business.

Posted by: anon2020 | Sep 17 2022 8:01 utc | 16

@ BM | Sep 17 2022 6:03 utc | 6

That’s a delicate issue. But I agree.

NATO rulers criminally violate the UN treaty and laws against torture and murder. Their ranks of lying propagandists are at least as culpable and even more so because their lies precede and facilitate everything else.

Posted by: dfg | Sep 17 2022 8:06 utc | 17

Gerrard White no. 13

Very well said. It's best to just ignore. Especially antagonistic replies/remarks/rhetoric whose authors' only wish is to engage in dialogue.

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Sep 17 2022 8:13 utc | 18

From Hunter S. Thompson's Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72:

The race was close and Johnson was getting worried. Finally he told his campaign manager to start a massive rumor campaign about his opponent’s life-long habit of enjoying carnal knowledge of his own barnyard sows.

“Christ, we can’t get a way calling him a pig-fucker,” the campaign manager protested. “Nobody’s going to believe a thing like that.”

“I know,” Johnson replied. “But let’s make the sonofabitch deny it.”

Posted by: too scents | Sep 17 2022 8:23 utc | 19

Studying mathematics I heard about and experienced a weird thing. When you're busy writing a proof, you arrive at a point where you need one proposition being true. Tired, desiring ardently that the thing is true, suddenly you see it true.

The next day you read it again or someone else does it. You call yourself bad names for writing such a stupid thing or you're called things you won't like. Other folks went through that and I read jokes about it. One professor used to say: "If you watch a thing strong enough, you'll see what you want." He was referring to that phenomenon.

Apparently, this can be experienced outside mathematics. They see what they want to see.

Posted by: DidierF | Sep 17 2022 8:38 utc | 20

Posted by: mijj | Sep 17 2022 7:23 utc | 12

Youre not meandering but absolutely correct. It is a part of a deeper ideological divide between the two camps which is the underlying reason for all of what is happening.

Posted by: alek_a | Sep 17 2022 8:44 utc | 21

@DidierF | Sep 17 2022 8:38 utc | 20

Propaganda is not something that passively happens to the innocent.

In propaganda a corrupt message is broadcast by a willful actor seeking to deceive.

Posted by: too scents | Sep 17 2022 8:50 utc | 22

Propaganda is not something that passively happens to the innocent.
In propaganda a corrupt message is broadcast by a willful actor seeking to deceive.
Posted by: too scents | Sep 17 2022 8:50 utc | 22

And received by passive ones who just wanted to be deceived, in order to look like innocent.
But actor too.

Posted by: La Bastille | Sep 17 2022 8:59 utc | 23

@La Bastille | Sep 17 2022 8:59 utc | 23

Sure. The best propaganda targets desire.

Posted by: too scents | Sep 17 2022 9:03 utc | 24

[deleted - b.]

Posted by: Tiroler | Sep 17 2022 9:08 utc | 25

Posted by: too scents | Sep 17 2022 8:50 utc | 22

[deleted - b.]

Posted by: Falco | Sep 17 2022 9:21 utc | 26

BM @ 6. You are right. If they do have agencies and editors in Russia they should be arrested and charged.

If I'm correct and I'm not saying I am, the Nuremburg Trials included prosecution of journalists and editors from the Press.

On a lighter note, thanks b for putting part of the Daily Telegraph article in. Fancy the DT being an objective voice!!

Posted by: Jo Dominich | Sep 17 2022 9:29 utc | 27

Here Sasha writes @sashakots Kots:

"By the way, I know of a few mass graves in the area around Izyum, which Zelensky is now talking about and playing a new Bucha.

These are twin graves of those that the Kiev commanders refused to take. "

Then the Ukrainian command was contacted, offered a humanitarian break, guaranteed safety. Just take your corpses. In response only mats.

What was left was collected and buried in mass graves.”
https://t.me/sashakots/35694

Yes, in fact we released videos from these places in May. Exactly the situation that a colleague is talking about - the corpses of the fighters of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were thrown into the fields by their own command to be eaten by animals. Ours removed the corpses of dead enemies under enemy fire. Because for the Russian enemy, he is still an enemy with guns.

https://t.me/MedvedevVesti/9329

And they were only buried in mass graves because the Ukrainian military refused to take the bodies away.
In general, I have the suspicion that the exhumation is now taking place at the exact spot that can be seen on the May video.
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Posted by: Mo3 | Sep 17 2022 9:31 utc | 28

Funny how commentators 'Falco', 'Chessplayer' and 'Tiroler' come through the same IP addresses and post just minutes apart. Blocked and content deleted.

Posted by: b | Sep 17 2022 9:34 utc | 29

Funny how commentators 'Falco', 'Chessplayer' and 'Tiroler' come through the same IP addresses and post just minutes apart. Blocked and content deleted.

Posted by: b | Sep 17 2022 9:34 utc | 29
.
Well, they probably have the bad luck that today is Saturday and you (b) have a little more time!
Believe me, they'll be back, a new IP isn't a problem today!

Posted by: Mo3 | Sep 17 2022 9:40 utc | 30

Reminds me of the old joke about a Cessna plane that crashed into a cemetery in Hicksville, South Carolina. Days later, the authorities were still busy recovering about 600 dead bodies.

Posted by: Kath | Sep 17 2022 9:42 utc | 31

Zaporozhye authorities report terrorist attack in Melitopol: power line blown up

Authorities in the Russian military-controlled town of Melitopol, located in the Zaporozhye Oblast, reported a terrorist attack on Saturday morning. The attack was carried out in the southern part of the city. A power line was blown up. Police officers found two damaged power poles at the scene.

Vladimir Rogov, a member of the Main Council of the region's military-civilian administration and head of the "We are with Russia" movement, blamed the Kyiv government for the attack. He published photos on Telegram that are supposed to show the consequences of the explosion. However, the damage is not critical.
.
https://test.rtde.tech/international/131481-liveticker-ukraine-krieg-biden-ukraine/

Posted by: Mo3 | Sep 17 2022 9:42 utc | 32

MO3. I do think the really shocking aspect of this is the actual exhumation of those bodies who were laid to rest with some respect given the Crosses on the graves. The exhumation is brutal, disrespectful and shows utter contempt by Ze for the dead soldiers.

Exhuming bodies for a photo optic and propaganda is truly shocking. Ze really is a narcisstic psycopath of the first order. I doubt whether even his mentor Adolf would gave stooped so low.

Posted by: Jo Dominich | Sep 17 2022 9:43 utc | 33

The West continues to win the information war with one lie after another.

Yet, such will not help the West when the Russian Bear takes all the Donbas and arises devouring much flesh (Daniel 7:5).

Posted by: young | Sep 17 2022 9:44 utc | 34

Recently there was an explosion near school number 3 in the center of Konstantinovka, west of Bakhmut.

And everything would be fine if it weren't for the photos of the place of arrival: the photos clearly show the English markings on the remains of the bullet.

Curious who else might be firing western-made ammunition at the settlement located in the rear of the armed forces in Ukraine?
.
https://t.me/s/Slavyangrad?q=%23Ukraine

Posted by: Mo3 | Sep 17 2022 9:48 utc | 35

The West continues to win the information war with one lie after another.

Yet, such will not help the West when the Russian Bear takes all the Donbas and arises devouring much flesh (Daniel 7:5).

Posted by: young | Sep 17 2022 9:44 utc | 34
.
.
Information War
Right ! For example right now on TV-Welt in Germany and NTV.
Commentator Live from Moscow :
" Russia no longer has the military strength ( mercenaries + professional soldiers ) to oppose something effective against the Ukraine, even with a mobilization, these soldiers ( conscripts ) would first have to be trained. "
Quote end
The bad thing about it, about 55% believe these words!
The bad thing is that no one reports what is really happening right now!
But, since my 40 years of a now similar system in the West, as in the (GDR), the thinking in East Germany with over 50-year-old population determines a life motto:
"Believe Half.. Doubt the Rest"

Posted by: Mo3 | Sep 17 2022 9:57 utc | 36

Seems a bit rich condemning the media for being pathological liars, after all it was them that bought us the covid stories, saved us from certain death encouraging masks and lockdowns as the best strategy, helped stop the use of cheap and freely available Ivermectin and then told us how completely safe their advertising sponsor Pfizer's new untested vaccines were. That everything they told us about covid was 100% true, then they could hardly be liars could they? I mean surely no one is suggesting the covid story was yet another lie?

Posted by: Organic | Sep 17 2022 10:28 utc | 37

Posted by: b | Sep 17 2022 9:34 utc | 29
Thanks b. For everything!
Liking that kind of deletion as it keeps the post numbers intact.
Hope it continues that way since people can't or won't break the habit of using them.

Now then, if we can just figure out where Scorpion is coming from...
(In 10,000 words or less, and I'm not talking location here.)

Posted by: waynorinorway | Sep 17 2022 10:29 utc | 38

I tells you everything you need to know about a country when its first move when occupying a region is to dig up graves and desecrate corpses in the name of propaganda.

Posted by: Pancho Plail | Sep 17 2022 10:29 utc | 39

Same treatment here in Australia. ABC published their own story which took Russian claims to bring out the "The claims could not be independently verified" line.

Posted by: Christopher Dobbie | Sep 17 2022 10:37 utc | 40

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 17 2022 7:45 utc | 15

"In science you make progress by falsifying hypotheses by means of the scientific method"

Well… this war is not a experiment the functions of which may be measured & analysed in conditions of objective testing of evidence; a war produces the conditions of negation of any possibility of objective analysis, in this scientific hypothesis test counter test sense

Access to the places concerned is irregular and sketchy at best, examination of the evidence let alone records of the production of the evidence are going to be lacking or muddled or under artillery fire

This is war – what has been produced by the the westies defies evidence, beggars belief, and does not bear disproval by reason – is believed precisely because of this

More importantly –exposing the propaganda to who and to what end ? The westies will take your science for your propaganda, only to counter with yet more of their own – and the RoW has no reason to care

You find yourself arguing in a vaccum just like the westies do

You’ll notice that, apart from some conventional denounciations, the RF avoids getting tangled up in the he said she said

Propaganda is defeated by acts not words – that’s the truth

Posted by: Gerrard White | Sep 17 2022 10:43 utc | 41

@Gerrard White | Sep 17 2022 7:24 utc | 13

In science you make progress by falsifying hypotheses by means of the scientific method. In a war like this it is important to compare the propaganda claims with the reality on the ground (or in the ground as in this case) and expose the propaganda for what it is. By peeling away the lies you get closer to the truth about the war.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 17 2022 7:45 utc | 15

Which requires a comprehensive investigation of the matter, so in this case Norwegian is correct. Mr. White seems to propose that we allow the liars to win by default, not that I believe that is his intention.

Posted by: Guernica | Sep 17 2022 10:57 utc | 42

It angers those who believes the lies and it anger those who know the truth. It is very effective.

Posted by: circumspect | Sep 17 2022 11:01 utc | 43

Posted by: Guernica | Sep 17 2022 10:57 utc | 42

""Which requires a comprehensive investigation of the matter""

Who is going to conduct let alone define a ‘comprehensive’ investigation in the middle of a war – I’m assuming comprehensive requires conditions that do not pertain in wartime – besides all notions of what the incident exactly is, or of ‘evidence’ pertaining, is clearly very slight and very corrupted, in the crime scene sense

And who is the objective scientist or team of – not belonging to one side or the other who are fighting, I assume

You have suggestions – The UN ? Perhaps not…The ….er…. who ? Oh dear the whole world, the whole world as defined by the westies, is rotten with propaganda and prejudice

Where are your objective scientists ?

Besides you, in your appeal to a non functional method of enquiry, would seek to compare or contrast objects/subjects from different dimensions, slippery propaganda and even more slippery glimpses/non glimpses of evidence, like those curious particles which appear or disappear when you look or do not

The west is lost, is the Empire of lies – why waste time with them : the liars can no longer win in the RoW, who have no need to listen to yet another instance of their lying – they wish to construct a new world

Why do you think the liars have won ? Because their propoganda tells you so..…. ?

Posted by: Gerrard White | Sep 17 2022 11:36 utc | 44

/sorry .. meandering pretentious thought ..
Posted by: mijj | Sep 17 2022 7:23 utc | 12

Not at all, no need to apologise because the issues you speak to are of primary importance imo.

Propaganda is a war on reality and truth. Truth comes from evidence and reason and does indeed exist exclusively in the physical world, not in minds.
Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 17 2022 7:38 utc | 14

Propaganda uses our own beliefs and imagination as weapons against ourselves. Nothing is more powerful than our 'Beliefs' and how we individually / collectively see (and understand) the ' world ' around us.

Cognitive scientist / neuroscientist / linguistics academic George Lakoff did an enormous amount of work in this area. look him up if interested.


--- --- ---
fyi eg Reason is 98% Subconscious Metaphor in Frames & Cultural Narratives
Real reason is: mostly unconscious (98%); requires emotion; uses the ''logic'' of frames, metaphors, and narratives; is physical.
https://aminotes.tumblr.com/post/2556942899/professor-george-lakoff-reason-is-98

Idea Framing, Metaphors, and Your Brain - George Lakoff
All thought/meaning is embodied - and you can't be rational/logical without being emotional
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_CWBjyIERY

" if i give you a sentence like he
took the drink of water if you don't
know what it is to take a drink of water
if you can't even imagine it you don't
understand the sentence "

Now, don't think of an elephant!

(What did you immediately think about / imagine? An elephant of course :-))

We're all programmed from birth to be naturally susceptible to the methods of 'propaganda' / PR / advertising - that's why they work so well on us all. We are built to think, speak, and learn in Metaphors, Narratives and Stories. )

Metaphors not only make our thoughts more vivid and interesting but that they actually structure our perceptions and understanding.

“We are neural beings, (…) our brains take their input from the rest of our bodies. What our bodies are like and how they function in the world thus structures the very concepts we can use to think. We cannot think just anything - only what our embodied brains permit. (…) The Mind is inherently embodied. Thought is mostly unconscious. Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical.”

When SoS Antony Blinken says: "Reports of a mass grave with 440 men, women, and children in Izyum, Ukraine are heartbreaking and should galvanize our support to the brave Ukrainians seeking to liberate their homeland. We stand with Ukraine in pursuing accountability for these crimes."

It's quite 'possible' he (and his staff) actually believes it entirely and they are not consciously lying or intentionally trying to mislead. They perhaps cannot " imagine " any other Framing than what has been claimed by Ukraine. Of course he may also know exactly what he is doing in manipulating the media and the whole world with intent.

Another default 'Framing' about Russia is nothing they say is " believable" or could possibly be true. IOW Russians are all inveterate Liars from Birth. Antony Blinken and Co have quite possibly been taught that Framing, that Narrative, that default belief system from their birth!

What Orwell Didn't Know About the Brain, the Mind, and Language
https://semantics.uchicago.edu/kennedy/classes/sum08/myths/lakoff07.pdf

George Lakoff, a cognitive linguist, points out that:
“Words are defined relative to frames and conceptual metaphors. Language “fits reality”
to the extent that it fits our body and brain based understanding of that reality.” (Lakoff
2008 p. 15).
Lakoff argues that we reason and experience the world through these frames rather than by what is a false belief that we access irreducible objective representations of reality, the facts, in our brains.
Larger frames are narratives, or cultural stories, which consciously and unconsciously guide us every day. “ Narratives are frames that tell a story.... A narrative has a point to it, a moral. Its about how you should live your life ----or how you shouldn’t.” (Lakoff 2008 p 250).
https://nwi.pdx.edu/pdf/str-based-comm_cultural-narrative.pdf

I hope that helps and wasn't too long. Cheers.

Posted by: SeanAU | Sep 17 2022 11:40 utc | 45

@GeorgeLakoff

Truth Sandwich:
1. Start with the truth. The first frame gets the advantage.
2. Indicate the lie. Avoid amplifying the specific language if possible.
3. Return to the truth. Always repeat truths more than lies.

December 1, 2018

Posted by: SeanAU | Sep 17 2022 11:43 utc | 46

Gerrard White @41

"Propaganda is defeated by acts not words"

Amen.

Posted by: Tigger | Sep 17 2022 12:01 utc | 47


/sorry .. meandering pretentious thought ..
Posted by: mijj | Sep 17 2022 7:23 utc | 12

Not at all, no need to apologise because the issues you speak to are of primary importance imo.

Propaganda is a war on reality and truth. Truth comes from evidence and reason and does indeed exist exclusively in the physical world, not in minds.
Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 17 2022 7:38 utc | 14

Propaganda uses our own beliefs and imagination as weapons against ourselves. Nothing is more powerful than our 'Beliefs' and how we individually / collectively see (and understand) the ' world ' around us.

Cognitive scientist / neuroscientist / linguistics academic George Lakoff did an enormous amount of work in this area. look him up if interested. Cheers

Posted by: SeanAU | Sep 17 2022 12:01 utc | 48

FYI, the Ukrainian soldiers were given a funeral: https://youtu.be/9ADPccZLBuA

Posted by: Ms. Cat | Sep 17 2022 12:03 utc | 49

When Reuters publishes a "Advisory - Story has been withdrawn" you would think that they owe it to readers to explain WHY it has been withdrawn.

I mean, even a short statement to the effect that "the Ukrainian sources who made that claim turned out to be lying sacks o' shit" might give fair warning to Reuters' readership that maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't actually believe those Ukrainian sources in the future.

You know, seeing as how they are lying sacks o' shit 'n' all......

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 17 2022 12:10 utc | 50

Why do you think the liars have won ? Because their propoganda tells you so..…. ?
Posted by: Gerrard White | Sep 17 2022 11:36 utc | 44

I don't think that the liars have won, in fact because of film documentation from last May, several news sites are crawfishing away from the story as it was originally reported.
Everything that you said above is correct as it applies to "the West", there will be no fair jury from them. But the world is bigger than "the West." Even if Russian has no credibility in "the West," it has great credibility and allies in other parts of the world, and they deserve to hear both sides and be provided with the best evidence that contradicts the "the Western" narrative. Silence can often be interpreted as an admission of guilt.

Posted by: Guernica | Sep 17 2022 12:17 utc | 51

My wife tells me the story must be true because she read it in the Daily Mail. I have told her what I think of the Daily Mail but she insists on paying money for it. It is good for lining the bottom of the recycling bin though. Just more rot!

Posted by: Pancho Plail | Sep 17 2022 12:23 utc | 52

Latest from the nation suffering from the biggest case of amnestic disorder ever.

"(Russians) have not indicated that they have an interest in diplomacy," Thomas-Greenfield told reporters.

U.S. dip-low-matts would not dare meet their Russian counterparts as they are simply not in the same league diplomatically-speaking.

No Plans to Meet With Russian Delegation

Posted by: thecelticwithinme | Sep 17 2022 12:23 utc | 53

Doesn't this whole Reuters retraction seem weird to anyone? Since when did Reuters suddenly worry about journalistic integrity?

Zelensky, himself, personally made the claim about investigators and "ropes around necks". The Associated Press duly reports:

"IZIUM, Ukraine (AP) — Investigators searching through a mass burial site in Ukraine have found evidence that some of the dead were tortured, including bodies with broken limbs and ropes around their necks, Ukrainian President Volodymr Zelenskyy said Friday."

So why is Reuters worrying about suggestive details of their trashy articles and specious reporting now?

Even if 'their' reporters saw nothing, they still have direct statements from the president of Ukraine and dozens of Ukraine officials to source for the lie. It would have been easy to just revise a word or two in the article to fix it.

I'm not just nit-picking here. For this one retraction, there's hundreds of other un-retracted Reuters articles about Ukraine that are either outright fabrications (properly sourced from NATO sycophant 'officials') or weasel-worded enough to hammer the fake narratives home. They do this all the time. Hard to believe their editors suddenly became so self-conscious about a minor fake detail THIS time, "Our reporters didn't personally witness the lie we're promoting," that they felt a need to retract the article.

I'm not suggesting anything else here except the strangeness of Reuters even bothering to retract this one article - mostly because it's so unnecessary (at least for them). They didn't need their specific lie about their reporters witnessing anything to nail the narrative because all the wire services and NATO mouthpieces simultaneously reported the same thing with the same sloppy attributions. The narrative was blasted out there - nobody is going to claim Reuters as the initiator. In fact, Reuters continues to amplify this exact false narrative, just without the reporter eye-witness claim.

I don't know if I'm expressing this right. Imagine a politician bloviating for an hour about, well, anything. Then they suddenly interrupt themselves, admitting that they lied about something earlier in the speech. Then they keep rambling on as usual. You know they're lying about damn near everything anyway and don't care. So why did they unexpectedly feel the need to point out one of their lies at all? It just calls attention to itself and it's not like it will magically restore their credibility.

Posted by: PavewayIV | Sep 17 2022 12:30 utc | 54

I think that discussing and analyzing western media lies is very important. It is informative to see the techniques they use and which are most faithfully servile. It was particularly interesting which b did overview of the breadth of the propaganda - media simultaneously broadcasting same disinformation. The understanding of the media function is one of the great benefits of the information sharing enabled by the internet. Our government is working steadily to choke off the sharing of information and the public discourse. Internet sources are having to be increasingly carefully of what is said - they are being made liable for "damages". Enjoy it while it lasts.

Posted by: jared | Sep 17 2022 12:35 utc | 55

There's an amusing attack on propaganda on Consortium News, where the BBC's reporting of Kim Jong-il is overlayed on the recent royal farce. It shows exactly how these organisations slant thing (in a not so subtle way, really). Fun to watch / listen to. It's here:

https://consortiumnews.com/2022/09/16/craig-murray-mass-hysteria-uk-royal-style/

Posted by: Jams O'Donnell | Sep 17 2022 12:51 utc | 56

Biden today warns Russia not to use nukes or chemicals in Ukraine. False flag incoming?

Posted by: quasi_verbatim | Sep 17 2022 12:56 utc | 57

The fundamental problem with the west’s information war is that it is directed at and only effective against its own population. The situation is similar to February/March when the west unveiled its sanctions regime with the assumption that the whole world would follow it because the information war is older than the Ukrainian conflict and the west mistakes its information for global information.

Interestingly, western leadership believes the information war it wages on its own people. This is obviously true based on leadership action. Propaganda is supposed to affect the population for the benefit of leadership, but when the leadership begins believing and being affected by its own propaganda a negative feedback loop develops, affecting the decision making process and generally leading to colossal fuckups in that process.

Western desperation to have reality somehow conform to its own propaganda is leading to more and more contradictory and irrational behavior. In this case it means existentially dangerous escalation but it also means undermining systems that the west requires for its global dominance.

Posted by: Lex | Sep 17 2022 12:56 utc | 58

Interestingly, western leadership believes the information war it wages on its own people..... As evident in UvL's BS ridden Speech this Week. It will be a Funny Winter thats coming!

Posted by: NoOne | Sep 17 2022 13:01 utc | 59

mijj, alek_a

Mostly true about engineers, as they must be grounded in reality, but they too can be led astray...think Boeing Max. Other factors also lead engineers astray:Engineering Failures and Ethics

Lawyers often get maligned but good ones use relevant facts to get to the truth. Please remember that in court, lawyers can't lie, but they can do other things that give us such bad reputations.

Sciene itself is not always objective and can be manipulated as recent COVID perdidity shows us. Kuhn's THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTIONS shows the endemic nature of subjectivity in science as well. I mean, relativity and quantum machanics can't quite seem to agree either.
Here's a link to a story about just how subjective some science can be (granted this is not from the 'hard sciences'), but a good read.
The Nastiest Feud in Science

In relation to propaganda and this war, scepticism should always be the first filter. Using information from a variety of sources coupled with time consuming attention to detail is the only way. This then tempers the original scepticism, allowing an eventual settling in of the truth which then must still be carefully considered.

At this point, I still lay the blame for this whole mess at the feet of NATO, but I am still unsure about many details of the ongoing hostilities. I am still suspending judgment and taking in information. I know the US will not give up easily, especially when our soldiers are not 'officially' fighting. I also know that the tentacles of the vampire squid stretch long and far and that there are "itching palms" all over the world whose self interest overrides other interests.

Thanks to b and others at the bar...it's been tough drinking here the last few weeks but the pours are long so I keep coming back and tipping large.

Posted by: Objective Observer | Sep 17 2022 13:05 utc | 60

No one is making the observation that exhuming the recently departed is monstrous. Let them rest in peace. There are circumstances where graves will be disturbed. There are circumstances where individual remains will be examined. Making propaganda is not a reason.

Those doing this are ghouls.

Posted by: oldhippie | Sep 17 2022 13:20 utc | 61

The wall street journal is running a story that the Russians are using suicide drones to devastating effects in the north.

Posted by: OohCanada | Sep 17 2022 13:22 utc | 62

Lex @ 57 You are right, the most effective propaganda happens when the leaders come to believe their own lies. Then the propaganda becomes an alternate reality for all in the closed loop. It takes on a life of its own. Essentially a terminal condition.

Posted by: Mike R | Sep 17 2022 13:23 utc | 63

Objective Observer | Sep 17 2022 13:05 utc | 59

It depends whether you count programmers and system analyst as engineers. I certainly don't, being an electronic engineer who has worked with software guys.

Posted by: Pancho Plail | Sep 17 2022 13:23 utc | 64

Posted by: Objective Observer | Sep 17 2022 13:05 utc | 59

Thanks for "The Nastiest Feud in Science". I am a big fan of empiricism and not getting too attached to theories. We are big apes with all the associated emotional baggage, and need to keep that in mind, rather than blathering on about how we have it all nailed down, are world hegemon, and are worshipped by all. Humility is the only appropriate attitude in any sincere attempt to find the truth, to see what is "real", and what is not.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 17 2022 13:33 utc | 65

oldhippie @ 60

Good point...it's a vile form of cynical opportunism...disgusting in fact.

Pancho Plail @ 63

Understood and respect. My father was an avionics engineer for one the largest airlines in the world...never once wavered from following the facts, protocols or manuals while at the same time was flexible/creative enough to solve problems no one else could fix. Best troubleshooter around. Can't tell you how many times my father was called in the middle of the night to fly all over the US/world to solve problems on planes that none of the other mechanics/engineers could solve for days. He would show up and solve it in hours.

Posted by: Objective Observer | Sep 17 2022 13:37 utc | 66

Russian President Vladimir Putin spoke to the media on Friday following Is one of the points he made. To me this the the core of the problem the world has with the collective west, hopefully resolving this will not end in another world war. After five centuries building this mentality in the minds of every white westerner, it’s time, and badly needed to deflect and totally eradicate this mentality from every westerner, white and color mind for ever. VP is precise in naming this, people of planet no longer will put up for this exceptionalism mentality. IMO this is the core of the problem rest of the world has with the collective west and the core of problem west has with the rest of the world. Bravo to Mr. Putin for saying it like what it is.

The collective West still remains trapped in the colonial-era mindset, the Russian president said, suggesting that Western countries simply cannot give up their habit of living at the expense of someone else.
“These are former colonial powers, but they still live in the paradigm of colonial philosophy. They are accustomed to living at the expense of others. And they still cannot get rid of this paradigm in their practical daily politics,” Putin stated.

Posted by: Kooshy | Sep 17 2022 13:43 utc | 67

https://consortiumnews.com/2022/09/16/craig-murray-mass-hysteria-uk-royal-style/

Posted by: Jams O'Donnell | Sep 17 2022 12:51 utc | 55

Thanks for the link. I particularly liked this zinger by Murray:

It is a capricious God who supports a royal family so much he makes clouds in their image and celebrates them in rainbows and comets, yet makes pens leak on them “every stinking time.”

Posted by: farm ecologist | Sep 17 2022 13:53 utc | 68

Guernica | Sep 17 2022 12:17 utc | 50

« « Even if Russian has no credibility in "the West," it has great credibility and allies in other parts of the world, and they deserve to hear both sides and be provided with the best evidence that contradicts the "the Western" narrative » »


This is false consciousness

You suppose that the RoW is like the westieworld and is required to have a scrupulous fair debate about the rights and wrongs of westie fantasies and lies – as if these fantasies were worth discussing or it were possible to discuss nonsense with a straight intent and face

Do you think that westie propoganda has any purchase in RoW ? RoW does not function like the west, this much should be clear

By this I mean to say that you are merely another victim of this propoganda – which is directed at you, only incidentally broadcast to RoW – the main concern is for internal consumption and control

RF pays no or little attention, and they should know, one reason the’re in this mess is that for some time recently they too were victims like you, the way out is to turn to reality and act accordingly

E.g. - https://www.livemint.com/industry/banking/sbi-opening-rupee-accounts-for-trade-with-russia-11663248524569.html

Posted by: Gerrard White | Sep 17 2022 13:57 utc | 69

Kooshy @ 66

Yep. So many woke identitarians in the west don't see their own complicity in perpetuating the West's imperialism/neo-colonial mindset. They are so caught up in de-colonizing education/sports/entertainment and so focused on Donald Trump that the see FBI/CIA involvement in media and politics as appropriate to fight off evil. They are the woke imperialists who don't see the irony in the biggest imperial venture in history (the US) stating that Russia needs to be decolonized. As long as we have diverse identities on the board of the Fed and in the CIA then it doesn't matter if they all pursue the same elite, profit driven agenda threaded with whatever violence is necessary to keep things trudging stolidly along. The algorithms keep voices that might cause doubts far from easy viewing for many and fear keeps many from venturing out.

Posted by: Objective Observer | Sep 17 2022 14:05 utc | 70

@66 Is it not the case that soldiers with roots in poorer regions such as Buryatia and Dagestan are disproportionately represented among Russian casualties in Ukraine? Is it not the case that people in these regions believe they are “governed by the colonial policies of Moscow.”?

Perhaps, Putin should get his own house in order first before casting the first stone…or indeed launching an invasion of another territory, which in itself has a whiff of colonialism about it.

Posted by: Tom UK | Sep 17 2022 14:11 utc | 71

More Russian propoganda ?

President Putin

« There are things we need to work on, and we see good prospects in several spheres, such as railway transportation and energy. There are very interesting and large-scale projects, namely the Pakistan Stream gas pipeline project, which involves building the infrastructure needed for the delivery of LNG.

The objective is to deliver pipeline gas from Russia to Pakistan. This is possible as well, in view of the fact that some infrastructure is already in place in Russia, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan. We need to settle the Afghan issue. There are problems with political stability there, but I hope this problem can be settled as well, because we have good relations with the people of Afghanistan. I also have in mind Pakistan’s ability to influence the situation there. »

President Sharif

Your Excellency, we want to build our relations with your great country with full commitment and full dedication, because you are a superpower. Pakistan stands to gain from this mutual cooperation, mutual understanding, promoting trade, investment, and other areas like gas pipelines.

We had signed a protocol in 2016–2017 that needed to be implemented. Unfortunately, for some reason, it could not be, but I know the potential your great country has, from which Pakistan must benefit in our own interest.

I have come here with my delegation with this proposal for your kind consideration, Mr President. We need to further cement our relations. We need to further build our relations in the field of energy, in the field of trade, in the field of investment and of course other strategic areas.

You are a man of action. You decide, and then you implement. I want to assure you that I want to work closely with you for our mutual [benefit].

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/69355

Posted by: Gerrard White | Sep 17 2022 14:15 utc | 72

Dis-information & mis-information and info-genesis(the creation of a desired information outcome).

Question; Perhaps 'b' can cover in some future post or someone here has more knowledge of the drama/theatre/counter-insurgency around the IAEA visit to the ZNPP awhile back.

Was this info-genesis by the WEST/Ukraine SBU/IAEA to CREATE a scenario for the establishment of a demilitarized zone around the ZNPP?

The report coming out of the visit and failed Ukrainian military operations to take over the ZNPP while the IAEA was there, seem to have missed out on any mention of all the military theatrics during the actual IAEA visit?????????

IAEA ZNPP Highlights


Russian Response to IAEA ZNPP Report

As an 'observer' was the IAEA itself part of a planned western operation to create (info-genesis) the opportunity for the Ukrainian retaking of the ZNPP???????

If this is the case, then the west is destroying the credibility of ALL international institutions - which will ultimately lead anarchy and you can literally believe nothing and no-one.

Now that Russia has taken the ZNPP completly off-line, it seems to have all disappeared into the past mis, dis, mal informational sandstorm.

In light of this and a history of this type of comments(here we go again): USA Warns Russia - Again about provoking USA


Anyone have any ideas or further information on the IAEA role in all-of-this?

Posted by: James Cook | Sep 17 2022 14:15 utc | 73

Gerrard White @ 68

I think you are overgeneralizing. The RoW accounts for 5 billion people, many with deep economic, political, and cultural ties to the West (albeit ties often forged in the fires of exploitation). They can be influenced by the propaganda and are influenced. The extent to which the are affected is mitigated, to varying degrees, by their own particular insularity. Look at Pakistan, pretty complicated but the West still has influence. Other countries are still trying to straddle the divide...hoping they won't have to directly choose, including China at this point. And let's not act like there is no propaganda emanating from powerful groups in the RoW.

Posted by: Objective Observer | Sep 17 2022 14:17 utc | 74

Do you think that westie propoganda has any purchase in RoW ? RoW does not function like the west, this much should be clear

Posted by: Gerrard White | Sep 17 2022 13:57 utc | 68

Unfortunately, RoW may still be affected by Anglo-American propaganda in a fashion similar to the western audiance. The interveiw with Imran Khan reveals as much, as a politician who was ousted by what amounted to a US-instigated soft coup due to his desire to deepen cooperation with russia was still unable to express a view about the war that included the Russian (indeed, the RATIONAL) view on the causes of the conflict.

In India, there are various Anglophone outlets such as WION that parrot the imperial line and inevitably some are affected. Even in Africa there are people who buy the bullcrap spouted by their former colonial masters who continue to fleece the continent through indirect neo-colonial practices.

A rather intersting indication is the lack of volunteers from RoW, even the former USSR, who would be willing to support Russia. Gone are the Spanish leftists, former citizens (such as some Greek volunteers) and individuals like Russell Bentley. The lack of a clearly identifiable ideological stance is evident as Russia is mostly tapping on nationalistic tropes with a touch of anti-imperialistic leftist views. Meanwhile, the westerners have successfully marshalled fascist militants who believe they are fighting the Bolsheviks, liberal hyupocritical trash who imagine they oppose fascism (imagine that, whne these pukes serve the Anglo-American regime) etc.

In short, ther is a reason the globalist regime invests so much in propaganda. Perception is power and nothing should be taken for granted. The problem is that the Russian government is so convinced that there might be a path to reconciliation with the wst that it is unwilling to intensify its efforts on that front even domestically. That is why there is little effort to present to the citizenry the full extent of genocidal Russophobic racism emanating from Mordor-on-the-Potomac and its appendages. And that is also why there is even less effort to expose the populace of the RF into the horrors of the 90s (when policies could be described as genocide through social murder, as Engels would put it )through various means such as movies etc.

I guess, the complexes created in the 90s are far tto strong and it appears that Putin is severely affected by them.

Posted by: Constantine | Sep 17 2022 14:31 utc | 75

So why did they unexpectedly feel the need to point out one of their lies at all? It just calls attention to itself and it's not like it will magically restore their credibility.

Posted by: PavewayIV | Sep 17 2022 12:30 utc | 53

Possibly early foreshadowing of End of Elensky...

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 17 2022 14:32 utc | 76

James Cook @ 72

I think you are right. The IAEA mission was probably part of a plan to use the fear of a nuclear calamity to bring in NATO forces. Had Ukraine been able to take the facility, that would have provided an opportunity to bring NATO forces to the ZNPP under the pretence of preventing nuclear catastrophe. The fact that Russia kept control and had so many of its people on site prevented the IAEA mission from becoming another Syrian Douma debacle (at best) or Iraq WMD deception (at worst) with horrible consequences.

Posted by: Objective Observer | Sep 17 2022 14:32 utc | 77

@70

with such inanities, I would not choose a user name that includes the name of a country: you are insulting that country by suggesting it has brought you forth. Go and tell the Russian soldiers and the Donbass people of your monstrous claims and see what answer you get, please go there and don't bother this blog anymore...
People are shedding their blood to liberate the Donbass and you are foolish enough to talk about colonisation!!!

Posted by: Anthony | Sep 17 2022 14:32 utc | 78

Perhaps, Putin should get his own house in order first before casting the first stone…or indeed launching an invasion of another territory, which in itself has a whiff of colonialism about it.

Posted by: Tom UK | Sep 17 2022 14:11 utc | 70

Russia colonized Novorossia (the eastern and southern 1/2 of Ukraine) in the late 18th century, at the same time the UK was still colonizing Canada, Australia, etc. They also chased the troublesome, slave trading Ottoman Turks out of Crimea.

It was a series of purely administrative actions by Lenin and Khrushchev that caused these areas to be added to Ukraine in 1922, 1954.

The entire conflict could have been avoided if a federated Ukraine with recognition of Russian language and culture rights was implemented. The exact same rights as Quebec was given in the British Colony of Canada. But that is not what the US and your poodle government wanted.

It is interesting that no western politician has ever answered why that would not be the best arrangement for Ukraine.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Sep 17 2022 14:34 utc | 79

Posted by: Tom UK | Sep 17 2022 14:11 utc | 70


or indeed launching an invasion of another territory, which in itself has a whiff of colonialism about it.

That's rich coming from a species of Anglo that still uses gurkha regiments to die in it's dirty wars ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 17 2022 14:44 utc | 80

Too much propaganda causes brain worms.

https://www.dw.com/en/nafo-ukraines-info-warriors-battling-russian-trolls/a-63124443

Posted by: too scents | Sep 17 2022 14:45 utc | 81

There could be videos of more fallen Ukrainian troops in other regions, and they too will used as a propaganda tool to falsely show that Russia has committed a war crime.

"We are being shown multiple graves, they begin to dig them up, show the bodies. Actually, Russian troops and frequently the officials from military-civilian administrations were burying those killed Ukrainian soldiers that were abandoned on a battlefield by their so-called comrades. Now they are being passed off as the victims of Russian repressions while actually those are the Ukrainians whom their so-called comrades-in-arms didn’t care about," he said.

The official noted that Kiev was not interested as to what would happen to the bodies of killed Ukrainian troops. "The same is happening on the border of the Kherson and Nikolayev Regions where endless staged attacks are underway for the sake of promoting Zelensky. We know that [head of the Nikolayev regional state administration Vitaly] Kim refuses to take the bodies of those killed. That is, essentially, in any location where the Ukrainian Army is sacrificing its soldiers by dozens and hundreds, it is possible to set up many of such Bucha-like staged events following a known technology,"

https://tass.com/politics/1509075

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 17 2022 15:00 utc | 82

Tom UK @ 70, Opport Knocks @ 72

Perhaps the UK should get its house in order before fomenting war. How about helping to finally solve the problems it created in Ireland or allowing Scotland to decide its fate without strong arming? England blocks Scottish Independence Vote"

As Opport Knocks suggested, maybe BJ could have counseled Z to negotiate with Russia leading to a peaceful resolution and a future for Ukraine as a bridge between Europe and Asia. Nope because that weakens US control over Europe and prevents the US plan to destabilize Russia, and the UK will do what the US wants.

Posted by: Objective Observer | Sep 17 2022 15:01 utc | 83

Ukrainians selling US-supplied Stingers arrested in Germany

Bremen police arrest Ukrainians who were selling Stingers and other heavy weapons previously shipped to Ukraine from Europe. The Command of the Armed Forces of Ukraine declares that all lend-lease contracts are stored in the warehouses of Ukraine. A Dresden student discovered an online shop selling German "trunks" and helped police identify a shipment of deadly cargo. Journalists from Hamburg and other German cities have already started their own research into what is happening. German sources write that the weapons seized were intended for a "counter-offensive" in the Kharkiv region, but were stolen and sent to Europe's "black market" for sale to the mafia and the Middle East.
.
That's what happens when you deliver weapons with no chance of knowing where they're going to be used.
Von der Leyeh, Bearbock and & are at risk of these weapons ending up with radical right-wing groups in the EU and being used against THEIR own system!
It's a matter of time before the first plane falls from the sky in Brussels / Berlin / Paris, before the first police cars are destroyed by armor-piercing weapons.
All these weapons fit in the trunk of a car!
Reports in the media (Germany) little to none!

Posted by: Mo3 | Sep 17 2022 15:02 utc | 84

more bullshit... thanks for dissecting b.... i agree with paveway - it is very odd for reuters do withdraw something.. is this a way to make the story last longer?

@ waynorinorway | Sep 17 2022 10:29 utc | 38

thanks... i agree with you and got a laugh at the end part..

@ oldhippie observation... right on...

Posted by: james | Sep 17 2022 15:02 utc | 85

What is it with the English, once by they get a whiff of their own shit, they think they matter....Imperial assholes.

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Sep 17 2022 15:04 utc | 86

And the Western controlled IAEA wants Russian forces to pull out of the ZNPP, like I've said previously if the RF moves out of the ZNPP and leaves it to the Ukrainian forces, we'll have a Fukushima or Chernobyl style event caused by the Ukrainian forces and falsely blamed on the RF.


"Russia says it has struck several of Ukraine’s positions in the wake of the shelling by the Ukrainian side of spots near Europe’s biggest nuclear power plant Zaporizhzhia.

The Russian Defense Ministry said on Saturday its forces had conducted the strikes in the regions of Kherson, Mykolaiv, Kharkiv and Donetsk.

According to the ministry, Ukrainian forces had carried out an unsuccessful offensive near Pravdyne in Kherson.

The ministry said two incidents of Ukrainian shelling had been recorded near the plant on Saturday, but the radiation situation at the station remains normal. “The Kiev regime has resumed its provocations threatening to create a man-made disaster at the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power plant,” said Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov.

“In total, 15 shells were fired from the Nikopol area of the Dnepropetrovsk region. Artillery units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were suppressed by return fire.”

Ukraine’s Foreign Ministry has denied Moscow’s narrative."


Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 17 2022 15:11 utc | 87

Objective Observer (82).

How the UK PM Boris Johnson, and Zelensky's Western backers, forced Zelensky to pull out of a promising peace deal with Russia, in which Ukraine would've lost no territory.


https://scheerpost.com/2022/09/01/report-russia-ukraine-tentatively-agreed-on-peace-deal-in-april/

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 17 2022 15:17 utc | 88

Thank you, b, for these two posts. I was reminded of the epigraph to Dostoievski's "The Demons, sometimes translated as "The Possessed":

Can't be helped, the track is covered.
Hopeless! We have lost our way.
Demons must have taken over,
Whirling, twisting us astray.

......................................

Look at them! They're everywhere!
Hear the mournful tune they make!
What, a witch's wedding fare?
Or a goblin's gloomy wake?

(from "The Demons,"
by Alexander Pushkin)

This is only half of the epigraph -- the second half being from Luke's Gospel, 8:32-37.

Posted by: juliania | Sep 17 2022 15:19 utc | 89

Posted by: PavewayIV | Sep 17 2022 12:30 utc | 53

It is a weird sequence of events. I’d put it down autopilot promotion of UA’s endless supply of Russophobic slander leading them to accidentally run Bucha 2.0 with an on-site photograph that pretty much falsified any and all salacious claims in the accompanying article.

That photograph of orderly, handmade crosses, identifying information, where available, and even flowers on some crosses, tells the reader all about the mindset of the people who organised that hasty but respectful cemetery.

If the propaganda crew had been smart enough to pull up all the crosses and focus purely on the exhumation of plastic-clad remains it’d have been a different story. Any claims by RF that they buried UA soldiers correctly would have sneered off by the collaborator filth of the MSM.

Posted by: anon2020 | Sep 17 2022 15:24 utc | 90

Objective Observer | Sep 17 2022 14:17 utc | 73

The RoW is not a bloc ; many countries, Africa, the war has no purchase hardly at all – but the Russians are coming ! does, last time round they were very useful – those ties you speak of are with tiny élites only, who lap up fantasies as greedily as westies do

Every account of every action is purposeful representation and at the state level may be called propaganda, not forgetting the religious-ness of the word

The influence of the West in say Pakistan is insidious still – but look at what President Sharif had to say to Putin – remember that Sharif was installed by the US in a coup against Imran Khan

So US bribery and corruption, which generally is not titled propaganda, is still to be reckoned with, yet can not prevail against the practical benefits of active infrastructure

What is in discussion is not the general role played by this practice – but the specifics of the distraction it serves within the context of the SMO – it is clear that this instance is designed for domestic consumption ; to pacify the masses, to mask the reality of the war, to feed the MIC

To counter fantasies do not debate them as if this were useful, but by actions reveal them for nonsense – put in the gasline, or the railway, or – in the US – the general strike

As for China – that’s another topic

Posted by: Gerrard White | Sep 17 2022 15:38 utc | 91

@Gerrard White | Sep 17 2022 10:43 utc | 41

Propaganda is defeated by acts not words – that’s the truth
Are you trying to convince me about that using words?

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 17 2022 15:43 utc | 92

Didier@20

There is a flip-side to seeing what you wish to see. That unreality happens to run rampant in the U$$A, particularly amongst suburban soccer-moms who happen to also hold an advanced degree or two. The phenomenon is called "cognitive dissonance". Meaning is simple: One disregards or overlooks information which does not fit into your previously accepted trope of what constitutes reality.

The brilliant analyst and marvelous musician, Roger Waters, worked this thought into one of his Pink Floyd presentations: "Comfortably numb". That is the current status of the Great Overwashed in contemporary sub-urban America.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 17 2022 15:47 utc | 93

A few have mentioned desperation. The west is desperate and has been for a number of years now. Their true face is slowly being revealed to the world and they have to scream and shout and have tantrums like a child. Pointing fingers at and blaming others for the shit they have caused. The bully got a black eye and about to get a good swift kick in the nuts as well. Good!! Like I said before. Glad I'm alive to watch these interesting times.

Posted by: Watzov | Sep 17 2022 15:48 utc | 94

"...So US bribery and corruption, which generally is not titled propaganda, is still to be reckoned with, yet can not prevail against the practical benefits of active infrastructure..."
Gerrard White@90

Generally you are right.
But there are exceptions- in military dictatorships where there is no interest in public opinion, the sort that are found in Latin America in particular where elites tend to be drawn from racial minorities, bribes and corruptions often do prevail against tangible economic benefits.

One of the characteristics of the Ukrainian dictatorship is that it has a racist ideology-not unlike that in Israel- which leads to the elites regarding the bulk of the population, in particular the Russian speakers, as untermenschen, just as the Bolivian coup leaders regarded the 'Indians' as inferiors. And Ukraine id a prime example of a state in which vast amounts of money and material subsidies end up at the disposal of a tiny elite while the living standards of the bulk of the people plummet.

Posted by: bevin | Sep 17 2022 15:49 utc | 95

No one is making the observation that exhuming the recently departed is monstrous. Let them rest in peace.

Those doing this are ghouls.

Posted by: oldhippie | Sep 17 2022 13:20 utc | 60

They are indeed. And, sad to say, our ghouls...

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 17 2022 15:49 utc | 96

@Objective Observer | Sep 17 2022 13:05 utc | 59

Sciene itself is not always objective and can be manipulated as recent COVID perdidity shows us.
Science is always objective if practiced strictly according toe the Scientific Method, but people with nefarious motives are trying to hide behind "science" to gain undeserved credibility and manipulative power. Your example is such a case.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 17 2022 15:51 utc | 97

Funny how commentators 'Falco', 'Chessplayer' and 'Tiroler' come through the same IP addresses and post just minutes apart. Blocked and content deleted.

Posted by: b | Sep 17 2022 9:34 utc | 29

Are we to understand that 'Chessmaster' has been joined by 'Chessplayer'? Oy vey.

Posted by: David Levin | Sep 17 2022 15:54 utc | 98

Well of course they had to find something like fresh graves to scream about - Ukraine's stupid official in Kiev admitted to killing civilians who are Russians.That had to be covered up - Right F... Now !

Posted by: GMC | Sep 17 2022 15:56 utc | 99

Well of course they had to find something like fresh graves to scream about - Ukraine's stupid official in Kiev admitted to killing civilians who are Russians.That had to be covered up - Right F... Now !

Posted by: GMC | Sep 17 2022 15:56 utc | 100

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