Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 23, 2022
Historic Context Of The Referenda In Ukraine

Voting for membership in the Russian Federation has started in four oblast of Ukraine:

Russian proxy officials in four regions — Donetsk and Luhansk in the east, and Kherson and Zaporizka in the south — earlier this week announced plans to hold referendums over four days beginning on Friday. Russia controls nearly all of two of the four regions, Luhansk and Kherson, but only a fraction of the other two, Zaporizka and Donetsk.

Ukrainian officials have dismissed the voting as grotesque theater — staging polls in cities laid to waste by Russian forces and abandoned by most residents.

President Volodymyr Zelensky thanked Ukraine’s allies for their steadfast support and said “the farce” of “sham referenda” would do nothing to change his nation’s fight to drive Russia from Ukraine.

The Ukrainian regime has resorted to pure terrorism to prevent the votes from happening:

Ukrainian partisans, sometimes working with special operations forces, have blown up warehouses holding ballots and buildings where Russian proxy officials preparing for the vote held meetings. Ukrainian officials have acknowledged that they are engaged in a campaign to assassinate key Russian administration officials; more than a dozen have been blown up, shot and poisoned, according to Ukrainian and Russian officials.

Such behavior by the Zelenski regime against its still Ukrainian compatriots will only encourage the people in the four oblast to vote for an alignment with Russia.

The propaganda in the 'west' will declare that the vote is irregular and that the results, likely to be pro-Russian, will be fake.

But a view on historic election outcomes since Ukrainian independence in 1991 show clear geographic preferences in east and south Ukraine for pro-Russian policies:



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The graphic above is from research published by the Eurasian Research Institute of the International Hoca Ahmet Yesevi Turkish-Kazakh University. Its author writes:

As we can see, the have always been a clear-cut geographical split in the way the regions of Ukraine vote for particular candidates. The East and West division or also referred as Southeast and Northwest division was always present throughout the electoral history of the independent Ukraine. It is conventionally believed that the eastern part of Ukraine is more influenced by Russia politically, economically and culturally. Therefore, the presidential candidates proposing more pro-Russian agenda usually gain much more political support in eastern regions than in other parts of Ukraine. On the other hand, the western part of the country has traditionally been more pro-European with strong reference to traditional core Ukrainian ethnic traditions and values. Consequently, presidential candidates with pro-European political agenda and traditional Ukrainian appeal usually had strong support in western regions of the country. It is interesting to note that preferences of the electorate were not related to the geographical origin or background of the presidential candidates and any candidate could easily become popular in the east as well as in the west. Moreover, the same candidate could be both pro-eastern and pro-western in different periods of time as did Leonid Kuchma in 1994 and 1999, who is the only Ukrainian president to serve two consecutive terms from 1994 to 2005.

The division is consistent with ethnic and linguistic differences between those parts of Ukraine.


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In 2014, after the violent fascist coup in Kiev, one of the first laws implemented by the new government removed the Russian language from official use. Instead of overcoming the differences between its people it only sealed the predominant split in Ukraine.

The election promise of the current Ukrainian president Vladimir Zelenski to make peace with the Russia aligned rebellious Donbas region by adhering to the Minsk 2 agreements was rewarded with a large share of southeastern votes for his presidency. However, after having been threatened with death by fascists, Zelenski has made a 180 degree turn and has since posed as Ukrainian nationalist. In consequence he has lost all support in southeastern Ukraine.

The southeastern parts of today's Ukraine have for centuries been part of the central Russian empire. They were only attached to the Soviet Republic of Ukraine under Lenin's rule in 1922 and, in the case of Crimea, in 1954 under Nikita Khrushchev who himself had grown up in the Donbas region.


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A likely high turnout and majority vote for membership in the Russian Federation will only correct the historic misalignment created by those illogical transfers.

Comments

Posted by: Joe9211 | Sep 23 2022 15:05 utc | 104

Putin is a fucking asshole and traitor, promissing protection

So when are you picking up a rifle and heading to the front to show Putin how it’s done?

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 23 2022 15:11 utc | 101

Zelensky is not an actor, he is an agent, of Kolmojski and his ilk. Slight but significant difference.
Posted by: xeen | Sep 23 2022 14:19 utc | 85

Correction… Zelensky was an agent of Kolomoisky. In the fall of 2021, Kolomoisky was sanctioned by the US state department and will be arrested if he sets foot in the USA or Ukraine. That signaled the transfer of ownership of Zelensky to the USA. He mouths the words, the script is written by the USA. He is an actor.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Sep 23 2022 15:11 utc | 102

Funny, exactly a century after those oblasts were given to Ukraine, they likely decide to go back to Russia…
When I look at the map, there is quite some land still to be conquered, including Kharkov, where Russia has to correct the recent withdrawal, which was necessary, but would not have happened if Russia had had mobilized sooner.
I actually agree that the results are likely a bit off because of all the migrations across Ukraine and abroad, but by and large they will reflect the wish of the population.
I think those terrorist attacks will only make people want to leave even more.

Posted by: Nico | Sep 23 2022 15:12 utc | 103

Berlusconi: “Putin was ‘pushed’ into invading Ukraine and wanted to put ‘decent people’ in charge….”
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-was-pushed-into-ukraine-war-says-italys-berlusconi-2022-09-23/

Posted by: Kellen Cramer | Sep 23 2022 15:15 utc | 104

@103 WJ
There was no gradualist approach. The whole point was to invade on all fronts, quickly overwhelm Ukrainian forces and take Kiev thereby collapsing the Govt. This operation was designed to be over before the West could react. The West actually assumed this is what would happen, and that Ukraine would not last a week.
Where it went wrong was a) the Ukrainian Govt did not cut and run, b) Ukrainian forces resisted then pushed back the attack on Kiev. This allowed Zelensky breathing space to rally the Ukrainian people and, crucially, get the West to start sending aid and weapons.
It must be remembered that for the first month of the conflict, the West were still unconvinced Ukraine would survive and that weapons provided were slow to come and still of relatively low quality.

Posted by: Tom UK | Sep 23 2022 15:16 utc | 105

Posted by: Micron | Sep 23 2022 11:30 utc | 13
“This is not that different from the hopes of the Germans during the second world war (the mythical Wunderwaffen promised by Goebbels) or the delusions of the Americans during the Vietnam war. Latest sad example being the attempt of explaining away the humiliating defeat around Izyum by some kind of well-prepared repositioning maneuver.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Quite a grand rant there, Micron! I have a slightly different take.
Yes, things haven’t been as rosy as those with a pro-Russian or anti-Empire view have been led to believe (or chosen to believe more like it) and maybe the Russians are using propaganda more than acknowledged (ie not everything they say in their MoD’s is perfectly true etc.) but:
I think it is fair to say that RF’s main strategy is geopolitical and the Donbass conflict is mainly a pretext – for both sides. That said, what happens in Donbass can be significant if one side enjoys far greater gains than the other. If a Ukie counterattack could take large parts of Donetsk City for example, this would be a huge humiliation for Putin’s leadership and might destabilize their military command, not to mention make many of their new fairweather SCO pals, who already hold back from voicing clear support in public fora, even more wobbly. So Donbass matters even though it doesn’t matter all that much – at least in the wider context.
That said, the alarm felt throughout Russia after the two counter-offensives has been well judo’d by Putin to allow a move from the people via the Duma to insist on a far more determined approach, authorizing less police action and more hard core military attack mode. So although things might be messy for a little while, they will right the ship. Unfortunately many in Donbass, as has been the case for years now, are going to pay a price for being pawns in a larger game. It’s unpleasant to contemplate or admit but these things ALWAYS happen in wars and this is a war.
So let’s assume that after a difficult month or so during the Donbass > Russia transition with some desperate thrusts by the Ukies and atrocity reprisals against Russian-speakers in areas they still control that RF stabilizes the part of Ukraine that is now Russia proper. What then?
The Ukraine approach might follow what happened in WW II, namely after conquest was made partisan (often Jewish) uprisings dogged German occupying forces to the point that they had to form new groups to hunt these resistance fighters. That fighting was bloody, vicious and without usual military codes of conduct. This is what Ukraine will prosecute both within Donbass with embedded traitors and all around since there are Russian-speakers throughout Eastern Donbass all the way and inside Kiev. Every atrocity against Russian-leaning citizens in Ukraine will be blamed on Russia’s lack of commitment just as much as on Ukrainian viciousness. Or even if they don’t blame RF per se, their support and sense of loyalty and connection will waver because the price is simply too high and RF took too long and wasted too many of their lives and life times before stepping up.
So there are some serious setbacks at play right now. Putin has been slowing things down as much as possible because the geopolitical drama is going to take years to play out on the world stage; but meanwhile on the local front in Donbass things have taken too long. I doubt they have left it too late, but they have cost Donbass residents many more lost lives and suffering by babying the conflict as much as possible in order to stretch out their (geopolitically focused) timeline.

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 23 2022 15:18 utc | 106

Right now we have a game of chicken between Russia and the US. Will Russia dare to draw US blood? What will the US do in response? I believe that, given the neocons in charge of US foreign policy, Russia WILL have to draw US blood to bring this conflict to an end. The danger is that this necessity brings with it the very real risk of the annhilation of the species.
Posted by: WJ | Sep 23 2022 14:30 utc | 91

You are correct. The “decision making centers”, as Putin calls them, in the US have never experienced any of direct consequences of their wars since 1812. That is the only way this ends. Embarrassment does not count.
I once had high hopes first for reform, then for insurrection in the US, but that has long faded.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Sep 23 2022 15:20 utc | 107

@ WJ | Sep 23 2022 14:59 utc | 103
It’s better to wait for a political environment to mature before taking certain steps, so observers understand what you’re doing and why.
The RoW sees what’s happening, at rate they can understand it and plan accordingly.

Posted by: dfg | Sep 23 2022 15:21 utc | 108

Is the nazi hatred Germany had for russians 80 years ago making a comeback?
Posted by: Zanon | Sep 23 2022 10:59 utc | 4
Hitler may or may not have hated anyone, but he used hatred of communism to gather political support from the bourgeoisie and the petit bourgeoisie. The push towards the USSR was to steal Slavic land, which pleased any German coveting rich farmland.
I believe that underneath the Nazi slogans and hatred of Slavs demonstrated by the Bandera Ukronazis is simple land lust to eradicate the Russians from eastern Ukraine and seize their land. After all, the Galicia area is the poorest of all Ukrainian territory.

Posted by: Tedder | Sep 23 2022 15:23 utc | 109

#108
I don’t think Berlusconi understands Russian actions, regardless of whether or not he really meant what he said.

Posted by: Nico | Sep 23 2022 15:27 utc | 110

I have long thought that those who live in an area they have long occupied have the right to judge to whom they belong. An example of this would be the people of the Falkland Isles who resist the notion that their home belongs to Argentina despite its geographical proximity, just as it applies to those who live in distinctive cultural areas like east Ukraine. Further afield we can see how this plays a role in Taiwan, all being areas of potential conflict even when big power politics has no interest. It is then incumbent on those wanting to interfere to consider what they are doing, and of course they do know. Ukraine became an American satellite, one where a corrupt political class could run riot, the consequence is tragic for the people of Ukraine and Russia as war destroys a plundered country, one looted by a United States government more interested in perpetuating its supposed hegemony than in extending to the world an example for humanity.
The referenda are entirely legitimate, as long as they are held honestly. However I realise this will have no influence on a corrupt west run by leaders devoid of the capacity to be rational or logical, it is frightening that this war, whose cause was solved before a shot was fired might lead to the use of nuclear weapons, so destroying civilisation. As for myself, I have no intention of hating Russians or Ukrainians, but by God I could hate the swine who can never let us all live in peace.

Posted by: Barry Sheridan | Sep 23 2022 15:27 utc | 111

There is a reasonable case to be made that the Battle of Poltava is the foundation of modern Russia. One of them, anyway. Take a look at where it is. So I think these 4 referenda might only be round one.

Posted by: Guy L’Estrange | Sep 23 2022 15:29 utc | 112

There is hardly any understanding or acceptance of what the government does, despite what the compliant media puts out on a daily basis.
Posted by: CM of Berlin | Sep 23 2022 12:06 utc | 25
German media post-war has been dominated by a Judeo-driven thrust which is one of the main reason Germans (and most Westerners) have been brainwashed for decades to reflexively regard both any sort of nationalism as borderline psychopathic and also most Russians as essentially evil, each being themes pushed by Jews in media and school systems for decades now.
I would hazhard that 90% of the Russophobia or Russo-hate in the West has been ginned up by the media who march to a Judeo-centered beat.
Unfortunately the vast majority of us remain blithely ignorant of these manipulations and keep thinking that ‘white hatred’ and ‘white supremacy’ are real things leading events whereas in fact they are deliberate fictions made up to deflect attention against the real movers and shakers of such nasty business. Most of these old hatreds would have faded away long ago if they had been let alone. But they weren’t. And here we are again.

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 23 2022 15:30 utc | 113

Posted by: Tom UK | Sep 23 2022 15:16 utc | 109
“There was no gradualist approach.”
Absurd. Were troops slaughtered in barracks? Was government decapitated by missile strike? Was electricity grid destroyed? Were dams immediately crushed? Were railways decimated?
Russia wanted a negotiated settlement that left in place Ukrainian state, infrastructure, and government, and they almost got one in March, until Boris paid a visit to Zelensky and told him the US and UK did not want peace.

Posted by: WJ | Sep 23 2022 15:31 utc | 114

I hope the folk of the Zaporozhye region vote to join the RF, if not the ZNPP might fall into the hands of the Ukrainian forces, and the largest nuclear power station in Europe could end up being used to stage a terrible disaster.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 23 2022 15:32 utc | 115

POW held by Russia vs. one held by Ukraine. There is a reason why Ukraine allows the UN to access its POW facilities, and Russia does not:
https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/1573319902001532929

Posted by: Yenwoda | Sep 23 2022 15:34 utc | 116

Dear new bar flies,
There isn’t much to say about the NATO-RoW conflict that hasn’t been said here at MoA for the past year. Before you offer your opinions, read MoA posts and comments starting from a year ago. After you spend a month digesting that, your opinions will offer more value.

Posted by: dfg | Sep 23 2022 15:34 utc | 117

Russia should reward people reporting where languages other than Russian and Ukrainian are spoken because that might indicate the presence of mercenaries.
They should also put a bounty on the heads of foreign mercenaries.

Posted by: Nico | Sep 23 2022 15:35 utc | 118

International observers are monitoring the referendums.
Observers from Africa, Europe and South America are present at the referendum in the Zaporozhye Region, Galina Katyushchenko, chairwoman of the region’s election commission, told reporters on Friday.
“The referendum in the Zaporozhye Region is generating a strong interest among the media and observers. To date, 823 observers from a variety of public organizations from the Zaporozhye Region have been registered. In addition, delegations of international observers, which include representatives from a wide range of European, African and South American countries, are already working within the region,” she noted.
According to the official, “observers are carefully keeping an eye on strict compliance with the voting procedure on the ground, asking questions to members of the commissions, reading documents, quizzing local observers about details and talking to referendum participants.”
https://tass.com/politics/1512423

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 23 2022 15:38 utc | 119

@ Tim | Sep 23 2022 14:55 utc | 101 with the mono in monotheism being duo in Christianity
Thanks for the support of my ongoing commenting here
I understand your nit but it doesn’t apply to the other examples and mono to me means one way/truth and its my way or death to non-belivers…..religious hegemony…..ring a bell with financial hegemony?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 23 2022 15:41 utc | 120

The people of Kherson are being threatened by Kiev not to vote in the referendum.
“Members of Kherson Region electoral commissions and residents of the region taking part in the referendum on accession to Russia receive threats from Ukraine, says Sergey Cherevko, First Deputy Head of the regional military-civilian administration told reporters Friday.
“Threats are being made constantly, some our citizens have already got used to them. But I believe that the threats only prove that our today’s choice is right. Threats [towards the organizers of the referendum] are numerous; one only need to visit Ukrainian online groups to read all kinds of threats,” Cherevko said.
He noted that, despite the coming threats, people line up in queues at mobile voting stations to cast their ballots.”
https://tass.com/politics/1512395

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 23 2022 15:42 utc | 121

#120
Lol, really?!

Posted by: Nico | Sep 23 2022 15:42 utc | 122

@ Krištof | Sep 23 2022 13:15 utc | 54
Do you have a link to the referendum questions?

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Sep 23 2022 15:43 utc | 123

@118 WJ
The aim was to strike hard and fast, remove the Govt and rout whatever Ukrainian forces resisted. Destroying large swathes of civilian infrastructure was never the aim or the plan. Russia intended to use that infrastructure after they had put a ‘friendly’ govt in place, so why destroy it?
Russia were confident that the plan would work, the West assumed it would work. The last six months has been an object lesson in reminding us that as soon as you launch a military conflict or war, you lose all control of events and that plans never work as you intend.

Posted by: Tom UK | Sep 23 2022 15:44 utc | 124

@aristodemos | Sep 23 2022 14:02 utc | 76

The good people of Europe must come to their senses and grow a pair. The EU is a fake entity, which was designed to be run by their administrative bureaucrats in Brussels. That Bank$ter controlled bureaucracy does not in any way, shape, manner or form represent the will and the wishes of the people of the various European nations. The EU must be demolished.

Hear, hear. I agree totally. The first priority now is to demolish totally the criminal EU and get the countries back on their feet.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 23 2022 15:46 utc | 125

Expect a major, imminent provocation to disrupt the vote. What can ‘the west’ do presented with a fait accompli backed by the full force of the Russian military? We know there is no off-ramp to escalation by the Empire of Lies and indeed some in US want to break ‘taboo’ of nuclear weapons use.
In this case it’s not over until the fat lady melts.

Posted by: gottlieb | Sep 23 2022 15:47 utc | 126

WJ @118
The obvious facts that you point out have been explained to the troll you are responding to numerous times, yet the troll ignores those facts and continues to repeat its nonsense. This is how you know beyond doubt that it is a troll. The troll doesn’t process posts pointing out its factual errors because it is not here to engage in discussion and broaden its knowledge. It is only here to promote specific, pro-empire narratives. You cannot change its mind because that is not what it is paid to be here for.
With that said it can be useful to counter the troll’s posts for the benefit of lurkers who do read the comments to learn something. It wouldn’t hurt to keep that in mind and craft your responses for clarifying things to legitimate readers rather than to convince the trolls, the latter of which is impossible anyway.
It bears repeating that the presence of the paid trolls here is actually a good sign. It means that the Empire is struggling and not winning.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 23 2022 15:52 utc | 127

@130 What can ‘the west’ do presented with a fait accompli backed by the full force of the Russian military?
Carry on what they have been doing I imagine. Providing Ukraine with arms with which to continue fighting.

Posted by: Tom UK | Sep 23 2022 15:52 utc | 128

The first priority now is to demolish totally the criminal EU and get the countries back on their feet.
Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 23 2022 15:46 utc | 129
Deep visceral hatred of the EU is very common on MoA, but I don’t think you’ll get many members of the EU to follow the catastrophe of Brexit. They’ve all benefitted too much from the supposedly irrational “dictatorial” EU.

Posted by: laguerre | Sep 23 2022 15:53 utc | 129

WaPo doesn’t like referendums, they’re somehow “illegal.”

The so-called votes, which are being orchestrated in parts of the Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions of eastern and southeastern Ukraine controlled by the Russian military, are illegal under Ukrainian and international law and, in any case, would not remotely meet basic democratic standards for free and fair elections.
Western leaders, including President Biden, have denounced the process as a “sham” preparing the ground for Russia’s theft of Ukrainian land. The Kremlin’s puppet leaders, however, exulted in the process, which they tried to portray as a long path from self-determination to unification with Russia. . .here

But WaPo has justified the Kosovo precedent because “the Kosovo secession occurred in the aftermath of the genocidal mass murder of Kosovar Albanians by the Serbian government in 1998-99” here, similar to Ukraine’s murderous attacks on ethnic Russians in Donbass.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 23 2022 15:56 utc | 130

@130 What can ‘the west’ do presented with a fait accompli backed by the full force of the Russian military?
The West will move on to a different adversary just like it moved from the war in Afghanistan to the war in Ukraine, I’d say helping Taiwan declare independence to start a war with China.

Posted by: Tom | Sep 23 2022 15:57 utc | 131

Mass Rally of Muscovites in support of referendums in Ukraine video here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 23 2022 16:04 utc | 132

Posted by: laguerre | Sep 23 2022 15:53 utc | 133
If EU would continue in the same relatively “free” albeit extremely corrupt system as in 2019, it would collapse as a result of Target 2 system of balances imbalances going non-sustainable as a result of de-industrialization and consumer consumption decline. It’s completely natural.
However, pretty much the only way to keep it alive, even on paper, smokes and mirrors, is to morph into a totalitarian dictatorship, which it’s currently doing. Call it the Schwabian doctrine if you will. It allows to keep current power structure/ownership relatively intact. But living standards will drop like a rock, and USA is the one who was acting as the vampire here. They gain some more time out of sucking the life out. The euro will become trash paper and the schwabian’s will be allocating food, electricity, water, clothes based on a bs carbon footprint scheme.
At the same time they hope they can “take away business” from nations that actually produce physical goods. Well, yeah, it’s the same as a food store client shooting himself in order to derive the shopkeeper revenue.

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 23 2022 16:06 utc | 133

What can ‘the west’ do presented with a fait accompli
Posted by: gottlieb | Sep 23 2022 15:47 utc | 130

Attack the pilgrimage to Uman?
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2022/09/russia-ukraine-exchange-barbs-over-israeli-pilgrimage-uman

Posted by: too scents | Sep 23 2022 16:09 utc | 134

Fuck, I want out of this timeline.
Bloody Berlusconi now makes more sense of the current mess we’re in in Ukraine than MSM or the bulk of Western parties, of any side.
Funnily, he’s basically saying the same things that Lula and Pope Francis had been saying for months.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Sep 23 2022 16:09 utc | 135

from Eva Karene Bartlett
Man I met in a Donetsk market yesterday spoke about the upcoming referendum to join Russia, and about the psychological toll of Ukraine’s shelling. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 23 2022 16:12 utc | 136

“I believe that underneath the Nazi slogans and hatred of Slavs demonstrated by the Bandera Ukronazis is simple land lust to eradicate the Russians from eastern Ukraine and seize their land. After all, the Galicia area is the poorest of all Ukrainian territory.” Tedder@113
The same strategy as in Israel: ethnic cleansing, terrorising the natives into emigrating by banning the use of their language, assassinating their leaders, beating and torturing dissidents and potential critics, shelling their cities, demolishing their homes…
Zelensky, himself, said that his vision of Ukraine is to make it another, larger, Israel. Which, in a sort of reverse zionism is actually the place that most of Israel’s terrorists came from.

Posted by: bevin | Sep 23 2022 16:16 utc | 137

DPR frontline servicemen able to vote via mobile voting units.
“Military servicemen of the People’s Militia of the Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) are casting their ballots in a referendum on joining Russia right on the frontline, the DPR Defense Ministry said on Friday.
“Mobile election commissions were formed in the DPR on September 23 in order to provide all military servicemen with the opportunity to take part in the referendum. The vote is taking place in accordance with all international rules. The troops are in good spirits, everything is going according to schedule and plan,” election commission member Vasily Guzy said in a video posted on the ministry’s Telegram channel.”

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 23 2022 16:19 utc | 138

Brent crude has dropped to less than $86 (but volatile) here.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 23 2022 16:19 utc | 139

I trust everything the US Government and MSM say about Russia and Ukraine.
They may have lied to me about Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Grenada, Panama,Iraq, Afghanistan,Libya, Yugoslavia and those other places but this time they are telling the absolute Truth.

Posted by: Tom Stone | Sep 23 2022 16:21 utc | 140

Scorpion @ 100
Thanks for posting the Tex Bentley video. Just watched first half.
For those who don’t know. Tex is DPR militia. He’s old and command is clever enough to not have the old guys do long hours. But he is and has from the beginning been on the front. He lives 5 kilometers from the front. That gun against the wall at back of room is not decor.

Posted by: oldhippie | Sep 23 2022 16:21 utc | 141

Ukrainian forces amassing for some sort of offensive in the DPR.
“The Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) leader Denis Pushilin warned on Thursday that the Kiev government was probably preparing for a counter-offensive as it had amassed a serious force close to the DPR’s northern border.
“The situation in the north of the republic is extremely difficult. Alarming signals are coming. The enemy has amassed a serious force there, and it is possible that they would launch a counter-offensive soon in an attempt to turn the tide,” Pushilin said in a video address, posted in his Telegram channel.
“The allied forces are doing their best. I remain in control and join in the process wherever possible,” he added.”
https://tass.com/world/1511971

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 23 2022 16:22 utc | 142

Guess this will be the undoing of Lenin and Krushchev’s Attachments…
Once the Secessionists Leave Kiev and Join Moscow – their Quality of Life should start to improve.
Food. Fuel. De-Nazification. Increased Troop/Gear/Weapons/AirCover/Medical Support.
I’m reading in Telegram Pages that the IRN Loiter/Search+Destroy Drones which were introduced over Kharkov are all over Odessa.
The Drones appear to be taking on the Targets in Populated Areas/Beyond Artillery Range/Isolated Excursions. The Hypersonics/Supersonics/Cruise can be focused on Higher-Valued Targets.
Once the Tree Leaves all fall, Field Artillery, Armor, APCs, and Troop Concentrations are going to be harder to hide.
I’m expecting Drones to SERIOUSLY ClusterFrack AFU Troop/Gear/Artillery Movements.
We may see Odessa and Kharkov Liberated with their Referendums to Join Moscow. Once those 6 Oblasts have joined the Federation, it’s primarily going to be a De-Nazification Operation. No One cares if Kiev Collapses, if POL take Lvov, or if Zelenskyy flees to work Insurgencies out of POL – Securing “NovoRussia”+Crimea are the “Real Estate / Political Prizes” of this WarFront; and De-coupling from the Western-Zionist Hegemony’s Economic/Commercial Systems are the Global/GeoPolitical Necessities where RUS are successfully managing.
Best wishes to the Oblasts.

Posted by: IronForge | Sep 23 2022 16:25 utc | 143

@laguerre | Sep 23 2022 15:53 utc | 133

I don’t think you’ll get many members of the EU to follow the catastrophe of Brexit.

I didn’t say the countries should exit the EU, I said the EU should be demolished. It must cease to exist for the criminal organization it is.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 23 2022 16:27 utc | 144

Zelensky has been BOUGHT/STOLEN by the US/UK. Kolo has his Azov boys – why do you think Zelensky kept them defending to the bitter end in Azovstal? He wasn’t the least bit worried if they were extinguished.
Posted by: Julian | Sep 23 2022 14:58 utc | 102
Yes, but who bought/stole US/UK?

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 23 2022 16:29 utc | 145

Scorpion@110
Where are those mythical overwhelming forces that the Ukies are sposta use to assault Donetsk City? Russian missiles and stand-off aircraft as well as artillery have focused primarily at destruction of the Ukies armor and mechanized and presumably decently trained units.
So will the mass of Ukie conscripts make human-wave assaults which will overwhelm reinforced allied units on the Donetsk frontlines? They will have NO air-support, at the same time as their armor and artillery has been constantly and consistently degraded. Should they attack, the Ukies may lose tens of thousands of mostly shanghaied civilians, but also many of their shattered and tattered main forces.
The RU generals are actually hoping that their enemies will attempt to bulldog their way into the battered city. Who knows…perhaps the allied authorities will arm both the elderly men, youngsters and the less than totally feminine women if it looks like the Ukies are advancing. Thermobaric weaponry has yet to be seriously employed by the Russians. Major airbursts of these devastating weapons could wipe out hundreds with each and every strike.
Put succinctly, Russia will not ALLOW the puppet regime in Kiev to take or even closely threaten the Hero City of Donetsk.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 23 2022 16:30 utc | 146

Harrowing report from UN on war crimes committed by Russian forces in Ukraine:
https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/europe/100000008548940/ukraine-war-crimes-united-nations.html
On the topic of “gloves off”. Russia launched massive salvos of extremely expensive cruise missiles in the first days of the war with intent of eliminating Ukraine’s air defenses and air force. They notably failed badly at accomplishing that, so why do people think they had the capability of ALSO destroying a huge number of barracks and armored vehicles? Russia expected its cruise missiles would provide air superiority, the Russian air force could then knock out remaining AA assets and achieve air supremacy, and THEN Russia would be able to hit ground targets at will with its fighter-bombers and strategic bombers: Syria 2.0.
I agree with @Tom UK that Russia had no reason or desire to target civilian infrastructure, but differ on the reason somewhat. I don’t think Russia wanted to hold Kyiv or install a puppet government. They wanted to force the current government to flee west, degrading Ukraine’s morale and ability to coordinate its defense. By capturing or encircling Kyiv they then would have a bargaining chip: trading back Ukraine’s capital and sovereignty in return for Novorossiya territory (without having to slog through prepared defenses in Donbas) and their key war aim of “demilitarization” via Ukraine agreeing to cap its count of active duty soldiers. And of course, sanctions relief from Ukraine’s western partners.

Posted by: Yenwoda | Sep 23 2022 16:31 utc | 147

Even the most die hard “Ukrainian” would be a fool not to vote for Russia. Russia offers Social Welfare such as national health care, stipends for the poor, jobs, and etc.. Russia built all the infrastructure and Russia maintains it.
All the US offers for Ukraine is the same thing it offers to its own citizens, and spreads wherever it inserts itself elsewhere via NED, World Bank and IMF which is privatization of public utilities and resources with ever-increasing austerity for the commons.

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Sep 23 2022 16:35 utc | 148

I’m expecting Drones to SERIOUSLY ClusterFrack AFU Troop/Gear/Artillery Movements.
Posted by: IronForge | Sep 23 2022 16:25 utc | 147

Everybody has got drones. They will make the battlefield gruesome, and maybe blur radar enough to introduce fixed wing aircraft.
The conflict has a long way yet to escalate.

Posted by: too scents | Sep 23 2022 16:39 utc | 149

Scorpion @117
Slight correction needed here. It’s not “Judeo” per se which is the problem. Rather, we must consider the Sanhedrin, which has been running the show for observant Judaics since the time of their sojourn in Babylon. While held in comfortable “captivity” in that wicked city, various leading rabbis learned some of their tricks of the trade there, most particularly funny-money bank$terism; but also how to keep their own people in a form of bondage by way to Babylonian Talmudism.
Today’s ruling Bank$ters may not even be the whole of the shotcallers, as the Talmudist aristocracy is very quiet and subtle and wish to remain invisible to the rest of the world. So, as with the rest of the world, even amongst the many strains of Judaics, there is only a tiny, elitist minority who pull the strings. Most Judaics, though they often are caught up in the trope of “is it good for the Jews”, are essentially ordinary humans in most regards. Secondly, there are a subset whom I call the “Noble Jews” who are not at all about being the “chosen”, rather they are deeply committed to the whole of humanity.
Observation in short is that when it comes to Judaics, one must not paint with a broad brush. The entire issue is quite nuanced.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 23 2022 16:39 utc | 150

Norskie@129
Takk skal du har.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 23 2022 16:42 utc | 151

I believe that underneath the Nazi slogans and hatred of Slavs demonstrated by the Bandera Ukronazis is simple land lust to eradicate the Russians from eastern Ukraine and seize their land. After all, the Galicia area is the poorest of all Ukrainian territory.
Posted by: Tedder | Sep 23 2022 15:23 utc | 113

It’s much bigger than that, this is the local aspect of what is happening, but there is a global one too.
Locally the Holocaust was about the Jews being generally wealthier than ethnic Germans and Germany being devastated after WWI. So the Jews, especially after centuries of anti-Semitism, were a perfect target for wealth redistribution through violence using the honored tradition of creating an outgroup, rallying against that outgroup, exterminating it, and then taking over its resources.
The grander version of that same dynamic was what was planned for the Russians – after all the USSR/Russia was then, just as it is now, the biggest prize in the world in terms of untapped natural resources.
Right now exactly the same thing as happening but the Russians are playing the role of the Jews and it is a global game from the start. The anti-Russian rhetoric in the West is essentially identical to the anti-Semitic rhetoric from the 1930s. It’s not a coincidence, it’s exactly the same thing, and with exactly the same intentions – the territories that the West controls directly are now largely depleted of natural resources, and its economic system has been collapsing for two decades now as a direct consequence of that, thus the only way to salvage the system for a few more decades is to take the resources from someone else. That used to be done without any pretense that it is anything else but a naked resource grab back in the colonial era, but now you can’t admit to it in polite company, plus Russia has nukes, so you can’t state it openly (though the Russians know perfectly well what is happening – I’ve seen it several times mentioned by Russian commentators in the most explicit terms possible, i.e. world is overpopulated and resources are depleting, the Westerners want our land and resources). And here comes, on one hand, the othering in order to demonize everything Russian (we are at level of hatred against ordinary Russians, not just the state, that was never seen even during the Cold War; the open calls for dismemberment of the country are also unprecedented historically) and prepare the Western populations for more decisive actions in the future, and on the other, the internal attack from within the Russian world, for which purpose Ukrainian nationalism was mobilized.
We are still in early stages of the process – recall that the Nazis took power in the early 1930s, but the gas chambers only started working nearly a decade later. It takes time for things to advance and escalate fully.
But that is where this is headed if it is not stopped.
Ukrainian nationalists are much further along the process as it has been running there for more than a decade, and this is why they are randomly shelling and shooting at civilians, death squads are hunting for “collaborators” wherever they reoccupy some area, and so many Russian POWs were brutally tortured and killed.

Posted by: Tbx | Sep 23 2022 16:44 utc | 152

Don Bacon@134
That there may have been “a mass genocide of Kosovars by the Serbians is extremely open to question. If this information emanated from Western mass media, you may rest assured that it is something like 99.97% bullshit and to be thereby ignored.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 23 2022 16:46 utc | 153

@ aristodemos | Sep 23 2022 14:05 utc | 81
I noticed that too, and I agree with your assessment. The propaganda campaign has broken into a shrill falsetto in the last couple of days. You should see the relentlessly repetitious tirades on the comments area of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation website.
There’s a large Ukrainian-heritage community in Canada (they even have a couple of public shrines to Ukrainian SS contingents).
Whoever the posters are, they seem to be really losing their shit over recent developments.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Sep 23 2022 16:48 utc | 154

I’m seriously amazed at the people saying Russia isn’t doing enough for Ukraine.
Do they expect tens of thousands of Russians to gladly die to save them from their own government?
Russia is not an empire. They tried that and it didn’t go so well with Russian dead littering the nations of Eastern Europe and Central Asia to free the currently most anti-Russian countries on the planet (you’re welcome Germany, Poland and the Baltics, maybe you’d like to get back in your Nazi cell?)
Enter the referenda, you want Russians to die for you, then you need to become a Russia citizen with all that entails in terms of military service, taxes etc.

Posted by: Tom | Sep 23 2022 16:49 utc | 155

@130 What can ‘the west’ do presented with a fait accompli backed by the full force of the Russian military?
The West will move on to a different adversary just like it moved from the war in Afghanistan to the war in Ukraine, I’d say helping Taiwan declare independence to start a war with China.
Posted by: Tom | Sep 23 2022 15:57 utc | 135
Just as the US is involved in Ukraine to kill Russians and Donbass civilians in every way except “officially,” the US is already treating Taiwan as an independent nation in every way except “officially.”
I’m no fan of Communists or even Communist China, still they and the Russians have far more patience than I probably would in similar situations.

Posted by: Michigan Dude | Sep 23 2022 16:50 utc | 156

aristodemos posting…
He woda gone with the offer of Yen for his blathering, but he much preferred the Dollars…even over the Pound Sterling and Euros possibilities. “Money can’t buy you love”…The Beatles

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 23 2022 16:53 utc | 157

Guy L’Estrange | Sep 23 2022 15:29 utc | 116
“…So I think these 4 referenda might only be round one…”
Yes. – The West will deliver, by enabling Ukraine to step up terrorism against civilians in the liberated oblasts, justification for RF to continue westwards. After all, Odessa is a Russian city. Lawrow didn’t mention the city without reason in his address to the UN assembly. Also, a land corridor to Transnistria is for RF highly desirable. – My guess is that the decisive battles will be fought there next year, delivering the hurtful bloody blows to NATO personnel which are needed to bring them back to the negotiation table.
As it looks, this is wanted by NATO/EU so that they get Ukraine at a point where they can break out the western districts of 404 and let them be swallowed by Romania, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia(?). Interesting will be, how these EU countries will justify the absorption of 404 territory. With or without referenda, or blatant annexation in Hitler’s “Protektorat” or Israel’s West Bank fashion. And how they will convince the world that such annexation is good and just (or why their their referenda are “clean”) whereas pro-Russia referenda always must be condemned and their results rejected.

Posted by: OttoE | Sep 23 2022 16:55 utc | 158

On the topic of “gloves off”. Russia launched massive salvos of extremely expensive cruise missiles in the first days of the war with intent of eliminating Ukraine’s air defenses and air force. They notably failed badly at accomplishing that, so why do people think they had the capability of ALSO destroying a huge number of barracks and armored vehicles?
Posted by: Yenwoda | Sep 23 2022 16:31 utc | 151

Perhaps because those are static targets that can’t be moved around, thus are much easier to eliminate?
They didn’t want to do it though, because they still saw the Ukrainian army as brothers. BTW, there were plenty of videos from around March, before it became an artillery duel with no survivors, of Ukrainians surrendering. And you often saw them being literally given brotherly hugs by the Russians, as in “Welcome back in the family, everything is forgiven”. The war could have ended like that without much bloodshed, and would never have happened had it not been for the CIA propping up the OUN and the UPA all these decades and then the local oligarchy deciding to get in bed with all three of those scoundrel organizations in order to cement its power over the territory.
But the West made sure there would be no more of those brotherly embraces.
So cut the crap about “war crimes”. If the Russians were out to commit war crimes, the war would have indeed been over in the first three days. It is precisely because they have been fighting with one (and a half) hand tied behind their back that things are where they are now.

Posted by: Tbx | Sep 23 2022 16:55 utc | 159

Tom | Sep 23 2022 16:49 utc | 160
Yes exactly – people here, and some there, shout like it’s a duty for the RF and so easy hurry up and save us/them rebuild our/their towns – why did’nt PP invade in 2008 or whenever they think he oughta’ve
The sense of privilege is not restricted to westies

Posted by: Gerrard White | Sep 23 2022 16:58 utc | 160

@ Tom UK | Sep 23 2022 15:44 utc | 128
Please cite some actual evidence to support your assertions about Russia’s plan or intentions. Or a better option, stop blithering nonsense.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Sep 23 2022 17:01 utc | 161

Posted by: grunzt | Sep 23 2022 11:05 utc | 5
“If Russia wins all 4 referendums”
The referenda have been called by the people who live there.
It’s not a case of ‘if Russia wins’ but what the people who live there want.
Can you not see that?

Posted by: Butties | Sep 23 2022 17:01 utc | 162

Tbx@157
Ignorance displayed in your screed. In the first instance, once the NSDAP took over in Germany, they immediately nationalized banking and currency. An immediate response came from the Talmudist control nexus over Jewish commercial ventures, particularly department stores in New York City and in other major centers. The orders, strict ones, mind you, were that those merchants would be cut off from friendly loans from the Talmudist bank$ter elite if they did not immediately boycott all German goods. Message taken and acted upon.
If you do enough research from many sources, you will discover that German policy was not to exterminate Jews, but rather poorly conceptualized by painting all Jews with a broad brush. In Germany many Jews were highly integrated and even intermarried into German society and many of them had dutifully served in WWI. Had the Berlin regime simply gone after the Talmudist extremists and not backed the Zionist plan to relocate young and highly motivated Jews to migrate to Palestine, much of the mess of WWII would never have occurred.
An old adage: “Those who do not study history are obliged to repeat it.” (not a precise quote, but close paraphrasing).

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 23 2022 17:02 utc | 163

Norwegian @148–
This item relates directly to the EU, “A Failed Globalist Experiment”, that you and other European barflies might find of interest. Its opening paragraph:
“European unity was always a questionable concept between a collection of diverse countries who have historically distrusted and disliked each other. The strength of that always questionable unity is now being tested as the EU is facing its greatest challenge. The initial enthusiasm among EU leaders for the conflict with Russia has waned considerably in recent months as the reality of its ludicrous and self-destructive war on Russia continues to backfire spectacularly on them.”
Related to the article’s content is the clear pushing of Russophobia by the Outlaw US Empire in its attempt to oust Russian members of international organizations, one by Romania, “Comment by Foreign Ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova on the Romanian authorities’ ban on the entry of members of the Russian delegation to participate in the Plenipotentiary Conference of the International Telecommunication Union”, and one by France, “Comment by Foreign Ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova on the non-admission of the Roscosmos delegation to the International Astronautical Congress”. Of couse, Zakharova’s comments are in Russian. The linkage between the two is based on who/what’s behind the EU “leaders” actions and the announced aims by Russia to defeat those actions, not just recently as Putin just vowed.
So again, the bigger point isn’t just the reunification of the four oblasts with Russia, which is indeed existential for the people living there. It’s the whole need to defeat Parasitic Neoliberalism and its Militarism and Imperialism, as Putin put it:
“It is in our historical tradition, in the fate of our people, to stop those who are striving for world domination, who threaten to dismember and enslave our Motherland, our Fatherland. We will do it now, and so it will be.” [My Emphasis]
What’s described as the “Globalist” project is the policy goal of Full Spectrum Domination announced by the Clinton administration in 1996 while it was busily raping Russia and planning to destroy what remained of Yugoslavia. What was once semi-overt is now out in the open for those with eyes to see and act against.
The Vote ought to be seen as a rallying symbol by angry Europeans tired at the lack of democracy and ignorance of their very real interests by their elected and non-elected elites. The Donbas is voting to escape Tyranny. All Europeans ought to do the same.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 23 2022 17:05 utc | 164

A piece of trivial news to cheer up Macron
France will become Europe’s second-largest state after Donetsk, Lugansk, Zaporozhye and Kherson oblasts join Russia next week, and Ukraine’s territory diminishes accordingly
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/9818

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 23 2022 17:05 utc | 165

figleaf23@159
Personally, I mourn the devolution of CBC. As I live in northern Minnesota, the CBW station in the Peg comes in loud and clear. But I haven’t tuned into it for years.
Back in the day it was the dulcet tones of Peter Gzoski and Allen Maitland which boomed on in with a none of true liberality. These days with the pair of Dick-Taters, Trudie and Freeland (both WEF stooges) running the country into the ground with their crackdown on the truckers and all; my mourning now takes the form of no longer addressing your “Crown Colony Dominion” as Canada, rather as Canuckistan.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 23 2022 17:06 utc | 166

@Micron | Sep 23 2022 11:30 utc | 13
No need to go so far and quote Saker and Martyanov: Just look around you here at MoA.
Dozens of people are here to justify, support and applaud whatever idiocy Putin and Shoigu do.
I don’t even need to name them, do I?
Do you think these guys are going to show up here someday and assume they’re nothing more than doormats and useful idiots?
Of course, Russia can beat Ukraine with one arm tied behind its back, but the question to ask is: does it want to do that? Russia has the courage to do that and challenge “our Western partners” as Lavrov and Putin keep repeating, in a disgusting show of subservience to Westerners. Calling known and sworn enemies “partners” is the hallmark of a coward.
I suggest you watch Russell Bentley talking about the feelings of the people of Donetsk:
https://rumble.com/v1kpqdh-russell-bentley-situation-in-donetsk-and-in-ukraine.html
But don’t forget, of course, Bentley – who’s been fighting in the Donbass since 2014 – is a CIA asset (or MI6, or Mossad or whatever else they come up with) and a concerned troll.
Our colleagues here at the MoA can attest to that.

Posted by: Grey Sparrow | Sep 23 2022 17:11 utc | 167

OttoE@163
If referendums are held in those areas of western Ukraine are dutifully held and if those areas primarily populated by Hungarians, Romanians, et al decide to rejoin their ethnic nations; I am good with that. Where I would take your side/position is if they also dragoon ethnic Ukrainians into the new arrangements.
The Frankenstein Monster which is the current Ukraine must be dismantled. However, like all peoples, the Ukrainian-dialect speakers who want their own country, should get their wish.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 23 2022 17:12 utc | 168

@92 JessDTruth
That was my first thought as well. Putin was finally pushed to call the referendum and the partial mobilization to reassure the population of Donbass and Kherson. It is quite clear that the original plan of the Russian “doves”, including Putin, was to grind down Ukrainian and NATO resources with a cheap and lean expeditionary force, like they did in Syria; on the other hand, the Russian “hawks” wanted an all out war against the Ukrainian “traitors”. The events in Kharkov, the backlash from Russian public opinion and the fears of Russophones in Ukraine were used to steer the Russian policy toward a harder stance. I do not think that Putin is happy with this risky development, but let’s see what’s going on.

Posted by: SG | Sep 23 2022 17:12 utc | 169

Ukraine is or at any rate was slightly larger than France, itself the largest country in Western Europe. I never expected a quick kill of Ukraine, simply because of its size. It’s hardly Georgia.

Posted by: Waldorf | Sep 23 2022 17:13 utc | 170

#134, 158
There was no genocide in Kosovo, watch the German documentary “Es begann mit einer Lüge” (It began with a lie), it is available on Youtube in German and English. In it they (a big German state TV channel, imagine that!) take apart those claims and show how Schröder and Scharping were lying, Scharping in particular comes across like a psychopath.

Posted by: Nico | Sep 23 2022 17:15 utc | 171

The fabled map depicting the growth of Ukraine is wrong. In 1922, Budjak, in the south of Moldova and west of Odessa, belonged to the Kingdom of Romania. It was Moldovan territory prior to 1812 and Romanian territory between 1917 and 1940: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Romania_1930_counties.500px.svg

Posted by: Kouros | Sep 23 2022 17:19 utc | 172

As it looks, this is wanted by NATO/EU so that they get Ukraine at a point where they can break out the western districts of 404 and let them be swallowed by Romania, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia(?). Interesting will be, how these EU countries will justify the absorption of 404 territory
Posted by: OttoE | Sep 23 2022 16:55 utc | 163

Transcarpathia is actually a very tricky case. It was part of Czechoslovakia originally, but has a significant Hungarian population. However, the Hungarians are along the border, the mountains are actually populated by Ruthenians/Rusyns. Who are not Ukrainian, and in fact tend to be pro-Russian and identify as part of the Russian world.
Back in the days when Western Ukraine was being annexed to the USSR, they actually begged Stalin to add them to the RSFSR, not to Ukraine. The world would have been very different had they been listened to, with a Russian enclave in the middle of Europe. But it did not happen.
They again wanted out of Ukraine in 1991, and in fact voted for autonomy, but were ignored. You only ever hear about Crimea but the Rusyn story is forgotten.
They are still pro-Russian to this day, although they have been losing influence even within Transcarpathia over time. If you look carefully at those famous election maps showing the East vs. West divide, you will notice, especially if it’s not a oblast-level but a county-level map (as there has been Ukrainization in the plain), a stripe in the southwestern corner over the mountain range that is the same colors as the southeast regions.
Also, this was from March this year shortly after the war started:

«The restoration of Carpathian Rus has begun 👍🏻
The Chairman of the International Center “Mother of the Rusyns” Pyotr Getsko asked Vladimir Putin to support the restoration of the national statehood of the Rusyns, since Ukraine struck the right of the ethnic group to autonomy.
“In 2008, Ukraine held a trial in criminal case N499 for the legitimate demand of the Rusyns to implement the results of the Transcarpathian regional referendum of December 1, 1991, in which 78% of Transcarpathians voted for “a self-governing territory that is not part of any other territorial entities.” In the context of forcing Ukraine to peace and federalization of the lands, we propose to transform western Ukraine into Carpathian Rus,” Getsko said.
Getsko expressed the hope that the historical restoration of Carpathian Rus will contribute to the denazification and overcoming of Russophobia in Western Ukraine, and will also become a western outpost of Russia.»

I expect them to be abandoned once again once the war outcome is settled, even with a full Russian victory, but there is a chance that issue might become significant at some point

Posted by: Tbx | Sep 23 2022 17:19 utc | 173

@Tbx #164,

They didn’t want to do it though, because they still saw the Ukrainian army as brothers… cut the crap about “war crimes”

Russia deployed the infamously brutal Wager group from the first days of the war, including their “Rusich” battalion of literal and unapologetic neo-Nazis.
Here are some recent thoughts from Rusich on how to treat Ukrainian POWs. It doesn’t strike me as very brotherly:
https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1572972414451027970
It would have been trivially easy for Russia’s leadership to prevent Rusich and units like it from deploying. Why do you think they didn’t do that?

Posted by: Yenwoda | Sep 23 2022 17:19 utc | 174

I have one simple question for all those calling the referenda in ukraine a “sham”.
WHAT VOTE TOOK PLACE DURING THE 2014 COUP?
They seem to conveniently forget that 2014 was the MOST undemocratic change of government there possibly could be.

Posted by: HERMIUS | Sep 23 2022 17:20 utc | 175

Tbx @157 & 164–
Don’t be deterred by the troll, you’re on the right track. Essentially, Plan Ost was resurrected by the Outlaw US Empire as was widely commented upon here at the SMO’s beginning. Russians saw it for what it was almost immediately, and Russian language media wrote about it widely. Back in early March, our Russian compatriot S provided me with this essay I posted to my VK Wall, “Why “True Aryans” Hate Donbass Residents: Proof of the Attempted Genocide”, that you’ll find important.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 23 2022 17:20 utc | 176

#146
If they know of those nazi troop concentrations, why don’t the Russians eliminate them now?

Posted by: Nico | Sep 23 2022 17:20 utc | 177

Best option for Kyiv regime is to concede the four regions where referenda take place including Crimea. This would be a natural return and unite Russia speaking peoples. Declare a ceasefire and end of hostilities with Russia. End of territorial dispute, request a fast-track membership of NATO. Am sure Stoltenberg and Biden will oblige and willing to invoke Article 5 the soonest by any further transgression. Ample opportunity for false flag incidents. Is only possible when nations return to normal diplomacy and stop the war machine. A new Cold War already became policy under Bill Clinton and worsened under each succeeding administration. VP Joe Biden beat them all and is simply evil.

Posted by: Oui | Sep 23 2022 17:21 utc | 178

@113 teddy
Russophobia is not the only possibility as to why the Soviets and the Nazis tangled in WW2.
When Hitler invaded Poland to deal with the situation in Danzig and take it to the barking Poles, Stalin did not honor his part of the bargain of their pact with Germany and invade Poland from the east, to divide it along already agreed lines.
This calculated move by Stalin was done to paint Germany as a pariah state by the int’l community (hmmmm…sound familiar?).
With Germany’s unbelievable success in France, driving the British across the channel, and with Germany having a huge swell of support from Austria, Czechoslovokia which had been recently annexed, the writing was on the wall for the Soviets. The game the Soviets were playing, outside their scrum with Finland and its Japanese War, needed to shift from being a clandestine one to being an offensive one. Stalin made this clear in a speech to the politburo when he mentioned, “We must go on the offensive.” What other offensive could be interpreted in light of Germany’s military successes and the hidden communist hand of infiltrators and subversives being forced from Europe other than the final option of military war with Europe? There is no other alternative for meaning when Stalin mentioned, “Going on the offensive.”
Stalin began an enormous build-up and mobilization on their border with Europe. According to Hitler’s own words, the testimony of executed German high-command at Nuremberg, and other recovered Nazi documents, Barbarossa caught the offensive force of the Soviets completely flat-footed, destroying thousands of planes in their forward-placed airfields and killing and capturing 2,000,000 Soviets.
The rest is history.

As for why the Ukrainians as to why they would be so eager to join the Nazis, the Soviets centralizing and resulting starvation years of their agricultural land and life had left a terrible taste in their mouths.
Before the Russian Revolution, the Tsar instituted many reforms, granting the peasantry in Ukraine and elsewhere more autonomy. He did this with his advisors because there were years of tumult at the turn of the century but the reforms, especially under Stolypin, who had the Midas touch, relieved the situation greatly and by and large, Russia was on a good-footing heading into the first world war.
Long before this, however, and regarding Ukraine, the Tsar had sought the potential of centralizing the agricultural output of Ukraine and sent consultants and advisors to seek the cost of such an implementation. What they discovered about the land and people in the borderlands was that they were completely adverse and naturally-opposed to any centralizing diktats. The Tsar scrapped these plans and instead offered reforms to grant the peasantry more freedoms.
Now, in this context, one can easily see why the Ukrainians hated the Soviets.The Soviet system itself was a steam powered framework that was going to sublate the world under its technicity. The Holodomor is easily understood then, as a reaction against centralization.
Looking at the Ukrainians in the west, today, however, I would say they are supremely deluded.
They think they are fighting for autonomy against the Russians, but the fact is that Jewish finance has always been the centralizing-force of our time par excellence. The Ukrainians are trying on their own shackles, giving themselves to the west which will enslave them when their task of fighting their liberators has been won.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Sep 23 2022 17:25 utc | 179

The Ukrainian regime shoot itself in the foot by threatening with heavy penalties citizens who will vote in the referenda. It moved the goalposts of national treason from those who would vote in favour of acceding to Russia to simply participating.

Posted by: robespyros | Sep 23 2022 17:27 utc | 180

@the Ukrainian-dialect speakers who want their own country, should get their wish.
Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 23 2022 17:12 utc | 173
They will, some tiny country called Ukr must remain in order to pay their debts for 100 years or more. The bastards who run away in Feb and March, if they ever return, will be forced to work for free by their very own Zely, emperor of empty land.

Posted by: rk | Sep 23 2022 17:27 utc | 181

@karlof1 | Sep 23 2022 17:05 utc | 169

The Vote ought to be seen as a rallying symbol by angry Europeans tired at the lack of democracy and ignorance of their very real interests by their elected and non-elected elites. The Donbas is voting to escape Tyranny. All Europeans ought to do the same.

Thank you for the link to “A Failed Globalist Experiment” article, I am reading it. I do agree the vote should be seen as a rallying symbol! The unity we need in Europe is not the criminal EU, but the common cause to get rid of the criminals so we can determine our own future in our respective countries.
Posted by:

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 23 2022 17:29 utc | 182

John Helmer’s blog today includes a couple of interviews/opinions from Russian security and military analysts.
“Here are translations into English from published assessments this week by Yevgeny Krutikov, a former GRU officer and strategy analyst in Vzglyad; and Yury Podolyaka, a Sevastopol military analyst in Tsargrad.”
Not the usual suspects typically quoted here or at The Saker.
http://johnhelmer.net/and-then-there-were-none-2/

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Sep 23 2022 17:31 utc | 183

@b

The southeastern parts of today’s Ukraine have for centuries been part of the central Russian empire. They were only attached to the Soviet Republic of Ukraine under Lenin’s rule in 1922

This is not true. They were regions of independent Ukrainian People’s Republic.

Posted by: Kamil | Sep 23 2022 17:31 utc | 184

Well, we can now add some new specimens to The Saker’s list of trolls: the pedantic troll (such as Micron), the whining troll (Yenwoda etc), the foul-mouthed troll (Joe whatever), the screeching troll (Grey Sparrow)…quite a zoo! How they twist the facts and put wax in their ears…But let us take a drink with Martyanov and patiently wait for them to leave, like NATO in Afghanistan… now that I think of it however, living in the West myself, damn if my taxes go to these nitwits…

Posted by: Anthony | Sep 23 2022 17:32 utc | 185

back when we were taught to hate “Communists”. I still hate them, but they all seem to be now in our “WESTERN” governments.

You’ll do well to remember you only were taught to hate communism but little or even nothing about communism itself. If you had you’d know how ridiculous your last sentence is.
I’m not sure why you place the words communists and Western in inverted commas.

Posted by: CC | Sep 23 2022 17:33 utc | 186

A new Cold War already became policy under Bill Clinton and worsened under each succeeding administration. VP Joe Biden beat them all and is simply evil.
Posted by: Oui | Sep 23 2022 17:21 utc | 183

There is too much common sense in the first past of your post for it ever to be implemented.
There is a certain schadenfreude from watching Joe Biden slowly drown in a pool of his own bile.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Sep 23 2022 17:40 utc | 187

To those who say the Russians should have blasted their way into the Ukraine and finished the war on day one, and that the Kremlin has shown itself inadequate and indecisive, I’d just say that it doesn’t look like that to this outsider.
1. The main theatre in this war is not in Ukraine. It’s in Europe. The sanctions war.
There’s sufficient evidence accumulating to show the EU was confident that sanctions, particularly the financial sanctions that America in the main was able to bring to bear, would break Russia in short order.
So the blowback from those sanctions, while inconvenient, was worth enduring. It’d only hurt us in Europe for a short period.
I’ve just been listening to a Merz speech, given soon after the start of the SMO (linked to by one of “b”‘s readers here), that makes sense if heard that way.
Statements by various EU leaders at that time also indicate they were expecting a tough but brief sanctions war. Then victory along the lines of replacement of the Putin administration by one more amenable. Possibly, if one takes account of wilder statements made since, a victory leading to the break-up of the RF itself, but certainly a victory in the sanctions war leading to regime change.
This remained the hope for a time. President Biden was stating in Poland not long afterwards that with the rouble down to 200, inflation soaring and GDP down we had the Russians on the run.
Even now some in the West are still hoping for that result. It’ll take time for all to understand that a sanctions victory is not achievable. Only then will the peoples of Europe, and their leaders, start looking for a way out of the problems caused by blowback.
Had the Russians really blasted their way to military victory on day one, and given the confident mood in Europe in those early days, any negotiation leading to discussion, even, of the Russian security demands made in December 2021 would not have been possible. It may be soon. Some are even now calling for them. If such negotiation on those wider security demands does occur, it’ll only be because the Europeans had to be given time to understand it was needed.
2. Most here know that the SMO was a pre-emptive action. The facts on that are now clearly established. I notice that those who do know those facts argue more about whether the Russians should have moved earlier, rather than arguing the Russians should not have moved at all.
But to the rest of the world, most knowing little about events since 2014 and many not even knowing where the Ukraine was, all they saw was Russian tanks rolling into a weaker neighbouring country for no good reason.
And almost none knew that Ukraine had been equipped and trained by NATO.
It’s taken time for the non-Western countries to understand what sort of government the Kiev government in fact was. It’s taken time for that world to understand that this is a NATO/Russian conflict. They understand now.
I don’t believe those non-Western countries were ready to understand that fully until recently. To understand that the settlement the Russians had been wishing to see, Minsk 2, had been frustrated by the West. They understand now. After they have seen further attempts at negotiation deliberately prevented by the West.
Without that understanding the informal consensus arrived at in Samarkand would not have been arrived at. Time needed for that too.
3. The same process of understanding what the SMO was all about took time in Russia itself. Some Russians too were initially perplexed by the SMO. Again, there has to be a good reason for rolling tanks in and some did not know that reason.
Public opinion in Russia among those who hadn’t paid much attention to events in the Donbas has since firmed up. The attention of that sector of the Russian public has certainly been focussed on the Donbass. They now know why the SMO was undertaken. They now also know that given the NATO involvement this is a war that cannot be lost, not if they wish to see their country survive. Majority support of the SMO was I believe there in Russia at the start. But again, it took time for it to reach the level it is today.
For those three reasons I don’t think it would have been wise for the Russians to have gone for immediate victory, especially since that would have involved even more destruction and death than we’ve seen with the present approach.
And maybe it also took time for the Kremlin itself to realise that for Washington, this is not just another proxy war. This time Washington is playing for keeps. I hadn’t really expected that. Perhaps the Kremlin didn’t either, at the start.

Posted by: English Outsider | Sep 23 2022 17:41 utc | 188

Scott Ritter outlines phases 1 and 2 of RF’s SMO, followed by this whirlwind we reap, this bleak October:

Putin’s decision to order a partial mobilization of the Russian military, when combined with the decision to conduct the referendums in the Donbass and occupied Ukraine, radically transforms the SMO from a limited-scope operation to one linked to the existential survival of Russia. Once the referenda are conducted, and the results forwarded to the Russian parliament, what is now the territory of Ukraine will, in one fell swoop, become part of the Russian Federation — the Russian homeland.
All Ukrainian forces that are on the territory of the regions to be incorporated into Russia will be viewed as occupiers; and Ukrainian shelling of this territory will be treated as an attack on Russia, triggering a Russian response. Whereas the SMO had, by design, been implemented to preserve Ukrainian civil infrastructure and reduce civilian casualties, a post-SMO military operation will be one configured to destroy an active threat to Mother Russia itself. The gloves will come off. [more]

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Sep 23 2022 17:49 utc | 189

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 23 2022 13:59 utc | 75
As you know, dear psychohistorian, there is more to Christianity than what has been an organized religion of dubious merit; just as there is more to democracy than what pretends to be that, and just as there is more to any other great religion than the perpetrators of militarized jihad and oppression. You do have somewhat a block mentality in this respect, as we’ve discussed this since yeah back in the shadows of MoA history.
I will simply point out to your detractors here, that just as we all have our differences, the credible parts of your arguments should not be dismissed. I find your insistence on economic matters wellfounded, and I hope we will hold to the good in that respect. Thank you for your contributions here; our differences need not become all that there is to talk about.

Posted by: juliania | Sep 23 2022 17:54 utc | 190

as much as Western countries like to talk about democracy, we very rarely have plebiscites here at least in leaf land anyways…
really makes a man think
Posted by: leaf | Sep 23 2022 10:22 utc | 1

Britain voted to leave the EU in 2016. It took four years and a change of government before our elected representatives grudgingly agreed to do as they’re told. Many of them are still plotting to sneak us back in. I doubt they’ll allow us a straight vote on anything important again.
By comparison, Russian democracy, which has many problems with corruption, authoritarianism, etc. looks comparatively healthy. You don’t get the sense that Eurasian leaders despise their own subjects, or are determined to replace them with more biddable imports.

Posted by: ZX | Sep 23 2022 17:59 utc | 191

English Outsider @193–
Interesting recap that I won’t try to correct. What I will add is the need to look at what Putin did very early in his tenure as Russia’s President and assume he knew very well what the Outlaw US Empire’s actual aims were since they’d been announced twice, first in 1996 and again in 1999–Full Spectrum Domination. Yes, it did take awhile for Russians to recognize the nature of the tools being used against Russia and to learn how to combat them. There’re very good reasons why Russia is ahead of the Outlaw US Empire militarily and in other high-tech realms, and why its economy has proven surprisingly resilient, many of those reasons were reflected in Putin’s speech yesterday.
So, what is Putin and his Security Council discussing today? Education, specifically: “The issues on our agenda today have to do with organising moral and patriotic education at universities and in the education system as a whole.” Some might call that indoctrination. Given the situation, I call it smart.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 23 2022 18:02 utc | 192

ZX @196–
You clearly need to study Russia’s political and election system as your statement about its drawbacks is 100% wrong.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 23 2022 18:04 utc | 193

English Outsider | Sep 23 2022 17:41 utc | 193
very well said

Posted by: dp | Sep 23 2022 18:05 utc | 194

Confusions and misunderstandings
The leaders of nations speak with means and words incomprehensible to layman. By themselves they are among the peers, even pariahs, with the ultimate exception of Iran’s spiritual leaders, perhaps. We are the Outsiders.
Wars and battles form a rhetoric, like words and sentences in their private and secret language, most terrifying, most visible to mere mortals. They are the last to die, last to leave the Ship, and we the first.
They do try to translate or communicate their purposes and meanings – or more correctly, what they need us to think. They take interest on what they allow us to see, it’s their currency. It’s important that we do not understand things in their totality.
Open societies and public spaces are getting closed, thoughts of freedom hurriedly fact-checked into lunatic asylum. Vineyards are getting smaller, more inquisitive and aggressive about permissible thoughts.
***
Russia allows herself to use nuclear weapons when its territorial integrity is threatened. Her territory is about to grow, and also, it turns out to be under occupation.
That is a complex statement. How should one interpret it? Take seriously, laugh, be very afraid?

Posted by: js | Sep 23 2022 18:13 utc | 195

@ aristodemos | Sep 23 2022 16:46 utc | 158
That there may have been “a mass genocide of Kosovars by the Serbians is extremely open to question.
You along with the people who agree with you missed the point, that WaPo considers that referendums are warranted after massacres in one case but not in another. Whether or not a massacre actually occurred is irrelevant to the point. WaPo in this matter is (again) simply promoting Washington and dissing Moscow, which is common in the whole MSM.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 23 2022 18:16 utc | 196

@ NemesisCalling #184
Something interesting about Ukraine in 1917 concerns its declaration of autonomy. Ukrainian nationalists made this declaration late that year, after the Provisional Government assumed power in Russia.
The Ukrainian political elites who declared autonomy defined “Ukraine” as just the territory lying west of the Dniepr River, and nothing more. They did not even think to include so-called “Ukrainian” territory east of the Dniepr as part of their autonomous region. That these Ukrainian leaders thought in such terms informs much about exactly what territory, historically, constituted authentic Ukraine.
Another remarkable aspect of this event is that the Ukrainian political elites did not demand independence. They only sought autonomy.
Note that the Provisional Government in St. Petersburg immediately acquiesced the reasonable demands of the Ukrainians in 1917. The question concerning the political and national status of ethnic Russians, Russophones, and Russified Ukrainians in Donbass, Crimea, the Black Sea littoral, and Kharkov was never raised. Even Ukrainian nationalists, apparently, regarded these southern and eastern areas as being beyond Ukraine’s rightful purview.

Posted by: Rudi | Sep 23 2022 18:19 utc | 197

Putin is intensely legalistic, cautious, and a minimalist. If he could defeat Ukraine with one wave of his hand tomorrow, once in a lifetime chance, never to be repeated, he’d pass it up if the paperwork wasn’t *exactly* right. Putin has done a good job of reconstructing Russia, but he is not a war leader. It just isn’t in him.
Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Sep 23 2022 12:38 utc | 43
Many of those criticisms are reasonable. But they tend to overlook his considerable skills and heft as the sort of a world-class statesman that rarely comes around.
Secondly, perhaps it’s good that he isn’t a great war leader (though he has won two theater wars which is more than anyone else living) because RF is a major nuclear power and war with one of those might end life as we know it. In other words, war is off the menu though both sides are prepared for it as a last resort.
I believe that the SCO-axis strategy is to use ongoing conflict to bifurcate supply chains and financial flows such that the West has to become self-supporting which, given a century of more of being dependent upon plunder – to use karlof1’s favorite word which have seen popping up a lot recently – is going to take years, perhaps a generation or two.
So this current battle in Donbass and Ukraine is not the longer geoeconomic drama which need not be a war, rather a struggle. Asia needs to break free and fly solo and the AngloZionists need to let them go and find their own footing as honest, honorable polities.
Therefore Putin/RF is trying to keep the kinetics in Donbass ticking over as slowly as possible though it seems Ukraine counter-offensive and stubborness near Donetsk has obliged him to raise the ante finally since he is losing support from Russians and soon-to-be-Russians in that theatre who have suffered too much and need relief now.
That said, both sides are benefiting from the Donbass conflict because it gives them a clear us vs them propaganda narrative which brings their people together to support their cause. Many here believe the Russian cause is just and the Western cause is not, but to each respective leadership class it behooves them to enjoy support rather than dissent and the Donbass conflict provides that in spades since it is righteously blamed on the other guy, a narrative which is equally persuasive to both sides.
Let us see if in the next month or two the RF finally steps up and stops most of the civilian bloodshed in the Donbass area as seems likely.
I suspect then we’ll see a lot of vicious partisan sabotage and slaughter from embedded resistance units both inside the new RF territories and in nearby Russian-speaking communities outside. It will make headlines, be very ugly but not involve mass casualties hopefully. Importantly, it will keep the kinetics ticking over providing the narratives both sides need, especially the West which is hell-bent on some sort of Reset further entrenching the 1% stranglehold but doesn’t want the population blaming them for the painful debacles they are about to drag their people through.

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 23 2022 18:24 utc | 198

Aleph_Null | Sep 23 2022 17:49 utc | 194
What Scotty “Gonzalo-was-killed” Ritter says “shelling of this territory will be treated as an attack on Russia” has already happened so many times I can’t remember. It did not change the slow speed of operation or its dumb ways.
It’ll take weeks or months before some of these 300k people will go to Ukr (they want to do re-training for some reason). There isn’t any change actually, it’s the same 5 soldiers.
Zely fired a relatively large amount of rockets today, US presented photos of new batches of weapons being loaded. Next month let’s see how many civilians have died after referendums compared to the month before. Same, more or less?

Posted by: rk | Sep 23 2022 18:25 utc | 199

Option 1. Proclaim independence from the Ukraine, then immediately join the Russian Federation.
Option 2. Don’t do that (i.e., stay part of the Ukraine).
Posted by: S | Sep 23 2022 13:27 utc | 58
I thought they already declared independence on February 22nd and Duma and President P made an agreement to both recognize them as independent states and moreover support them.
So now the question is to remain independent or join RF no?

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 23 2022 18:28 utc | 200