Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 13, 2022
A Peace Proposal For Ukraine

b here:

The text below, an outline of a peace agreement over Ukraine, was send to me by a west-European source that wants to stay anonymous. Its purpose is to begin a discussion about the content of such an agreement. As such it is starting point, not an end result.

I personally disagree with many of its clauses. With some for practical reasons, with others for the legal consequences they imply (III.1).

But one has to start somewhere if one wants to discuss how the war in Ukraine should or can end.

—

A Peace Russia Should Propose

By RationalPeacekeeper

Background:

Nobody knows where this is going to end. The only thing for sure is that the risk of nuclear Armageddon for humanity has increased dramatically. This is insane. At the moment, no party seems to be interested in ending the conflict peacefully. However minute the prospect of settling this conflict may be, and however illusory it might be perceived, it is worth discussing visionary plans on which reasonable people could agree on.

This is a Russian-friendly perspective. People brainwashed with western propaganda will have a hard time to digest it. The objective therefore is not to promote to dishonest catchwords such as “territorial integrity” or “defending our freedom” but to focus on what is best for people’s lives, based on humanitarian principles and readiness for reconciliation.

Such a peace will need international mediation. Since organizations such as the UN and OSCE are western-dominated, a balanced choice of countries has to be made which have kept a neutral status and no interest in continuing the war. Examples, not complete: Turkey, Portugal, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, India, China, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico. These will be called “peace countries” in the following. This is how a sketch of an agreement could look:

I. Military:
1. General ceasefire
2. Soldiers of peace countries are deployed to the front line after conflict parties’ guaranties.
3. Heavy weapons are retreated at a distance of 30 km from the frontline.
4. Irrespective of details, the overall objectives are transparency of the peace process and to hinder the outbreak of spontaneous hostilities.
5. Peace countries control the ceasefire agreement. Treason of individuals in favor of one of the conflict parties must be severely punished.
6. Conflict parties commit to reveal reconnaissance data when ceasefire violations occur.

II. Territory:
1. Since a referendum with clear outcome has taken place, Crimea remains Russian.
2. The Donbas Republics are recognized, but have to cede a part of their sovereignty to an international administration run by the peace countries. They must be demilitarized.
3. The oblasts Kherson and Zaporizhzhia are under sovereignty and administration of the peace countries for two years and become demilitarized.
4. After two years, a referendum is held to decide whether Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia (each for their own) become independent or remain part of Ukraine. Independence implies the right to become part of the Russian federation later. The anonymous referendum is organized by the peace countries. A majority of 60 percent is required for the decision, otherwise the referendum has to be repeated. After the referendum, there is a transition period in which people are guaranteed a fair compensation for abandoned property.
5. The oblasts Cherniv, Sumy, Kharkov, Dnjepropetrowsk, Nikolaev and Odessa become demilitarized.

III. Politics:
1. Russia acknowledges the violation of international law in 2022, NATO and EU acknowledge their responsibility for the conflict since 2014.
2. Ukraine can politically become a NATO member, but no foreign troops and no missile systems can be deployed on its territory. Ukraine can become EU member.
3. Ukraine’s constitution must guarantee equal rights to all ethnicities. Russian must become an official language.
4. All political prisoners must be released, all parties prohibited since 2014 must be allowed, all media closed since 2014 must become legal again. All laws concerning “collaboration with occupants” must be abolished.
5. Extremism and promoting ethnic conflicts must be punished by law.
6. Ukraine must tolerate access and control of the above regulations by peace countries.
7. Arms control negotiations are resumed.

IV. Economics:
1. Russia pays a significant compensation for civilian casualties, such as 100.000 Euro for each documented victim, distributed over 5-10 years.
2. Russia pays for damaged civilian buildings and infrastructure an amount of 100 billion euros, distributed over 10 years.
Remark: this is not to disregard civilian casualties in Russia or Donbas, but a consequence of the economic realities.
3. NATO/EU and allied countries lift all sanctions against Russia. Russia commits to pre-war obligations.

V. Society:
1. Russia, Ukraine and NATO officially regret the casualties since 2014.
2. Amnesty in Ukraine and Russia for all non-violent criminal offenses regarding the conflict.
3. War crimes of individuals are brought to a court consisting of judges of peace countries. Conflict parties cede their right of prosecution and commit to collaborating in the investigations.
4. All restrictions on media are lifted in Russia, Ukraine and EU.
5. A joint internet mourning site is set up for all victims of the war, to document the horrors of war in the spirit of reconciliation.
6. A commission of historians and scientists working on all controversial events of the past decades, such as MH 17, Skripal, etc. (List not complete!) An annual conference is to held, with open access to anyone interested. All governments commit to disclose relevant information. The objective is to allow for dissenting opinions while following an evidence- based approach.
7. An international political discussion forum, similar to talk shows, with automatic translations and video streaming is established. All countries commit to send high-rank officials and guarantee access to journalists.
8. All parties commit to intercultural dialogue. All travel restrictions are lifted, electronic visas for tourists should be issued on short notice.
9. A permanent commission involving peace countries can propose amendments to this treaty.

To be signed by: Russia, Ukraine, all NATO members, EU members, peace countries.

To reiterate: Given the state of western governments, I have no illusions that they are even faintly interested in implementing such a plan. Public discussion about a peaceful solution must start however.

Comments

Simplicius@182
It is imperative that Russia takes the gloves off by bombarding each and every rail connection and most of the highway ones between Poland, Romania and Ukraine. The bridges and major transfer stations need to be demolished. Also, Russia needs to impose a “no fly zone” over any and all air traffic entering Ukraine. This is war, after all.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 15:03 utc | 201

14:31
Selensky’s office publishes draft security guarantees for Ukraine
The office of Ukrainian President Vladimir Selensky published a draft of the so-called “Kiev Security Agreement” on Tuesday. Ukraine proposes EU countries, the USA, Great Britain, Australia and Turkey as guarantors of its security. The document does not envisage a neutral status for the country. According to it, sanctions against Russia are to be maintained until the country has repaid the damage inflicted. The draft contains the following points:
preventive military, financial, technical and other measures in the event of a new attack on Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, to be taken immediately,
the delivery of modern air and missile defence systems to Ukraine,
a full-fledged sanctions package against the aggressor state, as Russia is known in Ukraine,
regional agreements with Turkey, Romania and Bulgaria on security in the Black Sea region,
regular and intensive military exercises in Ukraine with the participation of foreign trainers and advisers.
The document also states that the security guarantees must not limit the personnel and striking power of the Ukrainian armed forces. It also states Ukraine’s desire to join NATO and the EU. According to information from Kiev, Western experts, including former and incumbent politicians, are also said to have participated in the drafting of the document.
https://test.rtde.tech/international/131481-liveticker-ukraine-krieg-kiew-bekennt/

Posted by: Dr. Kassandra Pari | Sep 13 2022 15:06 utc | 202

This “Peace” plan is a joke and is entirely unrealistic, it’s basically a rehash of the Minsk agreement which already failed. Specific points to refute are rather meaningless since this entire document is just delusional scribblings, but for example the compensation/reparations from Russia to Ukraine, what about the 14,000+ Eastern Ukrainians MURDERED by the Kiev regime over the past 8 yrs. Who will pay reparations for them? What about the $300 billion dollars in Russian bank reserves seized by the EU/US/NATO countries what happens to that? regarding the repeal of sanctions that is utterly unenforceable, the countries could just immediately reapply the sanctions (or variations of them) on some completely unrelated matter or apply defacto sanctions through restricting licenses, tariffs or unofficial blacklists (The US famously made implied threats to Western companies in Russia to get them to leave the market or else, I can easily see them threating audits, limited financing or more regulatory oversight to companies that try to do business in Russia)
The Demilitarization of Donbas and other separatist regions is also utterly, utterly insane, why isn’t Ukraine being demilitarized, it was UKRAINE that bombed the separatists nonstop for 8yrs and under this “plan” (it’s not a peace plan, it’s at best a pause in the fighting to rearm). Ukraine will have a full army just 30km from the line of contact and in case you forgot US has already agreed to give Ukraine long range (300+km) missiles so that 30km demobilization area means less than nothing. Baring Ukraine from joining NATO also doesn’t mean much as the US will simply declare them a strategic partner and give them all of the weapons, training and intelligence they want without formal membership.
diplomacy requires trust and Russia simply has no reason to trust Ukraine, the EU, the US or NATO. Russia gave them 8yrs to live up to the Minsk agreements and the West systematically ignored and betrayed that trust. The West must now suffer the consequences, here’s the real peace treaty the West will get. Russia takes Kiev, the current Ukraine is dissolved into 3-5 regions, some of which join Russia, other become new nations or join other states and maybe a rump Ukraine 1/4 of it’s current size fumbles along as an economic dependency of Russia.
The “Plan” posted by “RationalPeacekeeper” is totally irrational and out of touch with everything, the local conditions, the regional conditions and world situation. Honestly, I’m surprised B would even waste his time posting an anonymous source, it reads like it was written by a random someone who was just dragged off the street, who has never followed this situation and just wrote a bland and generic hippy peace plan. B usually doesn’t post random people’s hopelessly inept writings so I assume this person must be somewhat note worthy. *IF* this person is actually in government that just makes this plan even worst as it is more proof of how out of touch Western governments have become.

Posted by: Marcus Kapusta | Sep 13 2022 15:07 utc | 203

Republic of Scotland@193
THE biggest say is to be found right on your own island, as the U$$A is a mere satrapy and cat’s paw of the connivers in City of London.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 15:08 utc | 204

a peace plan would be some negotiation between the imperium of lies and russia about strategic security. .ua has nothing to say… and .ch isnt neutral. we want to buy F35… haha what the fuck. the .at should be prepared!!!

Posted by: covidiot | Sep 13 2022 15:08 utc | 205

“Peace“ “proposal“, again and again and again.

But this is not a peace proposal.
Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 13 2022 12:50 utc | 120

Nope. Just one more US plunder plan in disguise
“Peace“ “proposal“, again and again and again….

“The Navajo Peace Treaty, negotiated between the United States government and the Navajo tribe, June 1, 1868 brought to an end one of the most tragic and dramatic periods in history. During the spring of 1864, more than 7,000 Navajo men, women, and children were driven across the barren plains of New Mexico to Fort Summer, where a reservation held them prisoner for four years of hardship, disease, and near starvation — before their plight reached the ears of the newly organized Peace Commission in Washington, DC.”

Posted by: La Bastille | Sep 13 2022 15:09 utc | 206

The US and by extension all of its vassal states, satraps, and bootlicking “allies” have proven themselves to be lying snakes and are totally agreement incapable, which makes the very idea of a “negotiation” a non-starter. You can’t negotiate with a scorpion. Their very nature rules it out.
Having watched and witnessed from a far a long time now, I think that the terms of a “peace” agreement START with recognizing that the only path here is one determined ENTIRELY by Russia and Russia’s interests and demands – whatever they may be. This is NOT limited to Ukraine which is naught but a proxy being used against any and all resistance to World Hegemony as wielded by the US and the powers behind it.
Russia has shown itself though its words AND actions that it is neither petty in its international dealings nor is it intending to “rule the world”. They have, I believe, earned the right to dictate how things will be ordered. I do not see any other way that won’t, in a short time, devolve once again to repeat the situation with which we are now confronted.

Posted by: DoesItReallyMatter | Sep 13 2022 15:09 utc | 207

Peace treaty ? Hahaha , throw it in the bin. Who said Turkey ,Portugal and Italy are “peace countries “, anyway? Iberia, Italy ,Turkey all sent NATO trainers to Mariopol etc. Mexico and Argentina, as peace countries …yes.
In any case, this all leads to Minsk Accord III? Why would Russia want to accept such again. I wouldn’t .
In all, a joke.

Posted by: Brother Ma | Sep 13 2022 15:11 utc | 208

Thanks for some interesting and level-headed comments. Some others need to get a grip to reality however.
The Moskva has been sunk by enemy missiles.
Munition factories have been sabotaged.
The airfield on Crimea was destroyed by missiles.
HIMARS inflicted considerable damage.
Taganrog has been hit (?)
…
What the conflict has shown, thus, is that Russia is not invulnerable, even if I wish it would be. Peace is always better than war. Don’t become mad.
Nonetheless of course, I agree that this is a war on Russia prepared and provoced by the US empire. Unfortunately, for that it has a lot of asymmetries:
For every war is a human catastrophe,
Russia trys to act fairly – US/UK acts vilely, but creatively
(Hide behind civilians, shell nuclear NPP, assassinating journalists etc.)
The West lies by inventing victories (until august) – Russia lies by denying their defeats
Russia cares about civlians – Ukraine/US don’t.
Russia acts predictably, the US by surprise.
Russia shoots a lot – US/UKR less but they hit.
Russia bleeds – the US does not. They have no skin in the game.
Letting in all those western weapons in without reaction was a mistake.
As I have argued earlier, Russia should acknowledge that it is in war with NATO/US. They must talk to the US and say (for example):
You have sunk one of our ships, we will sink one of yours if you do not stop meddling in Ukraine. First publicly announce it, talk straight.
Russia should make clear it does not want escalaction, but make also clear it will retaliate properly to those who will not stop escalating otherwise.
The end of escalation is nuclear war. And that’s why we need to talk about peace.

Posted by: RationalPeacekeeper | Sep 13 2022 15:12 utc | 209

aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 15:03 utc
I’m beginning to think you are right.

Posted by: spudski | Sep 13 2022 15:12 utc | 210

the .us istnt interessted in peace. its interessted in fight .ru to the last .ua

Posted by: covidiot | Sep 13 2022 15:12 utc | 211

There will be no negotiations. Period. This war is not about Ukraine. It’s about the Hegemonic Empire.

Posted by: Leroy | Sep 13 2022 15:12 utc | 212

Tom Pfotzer@173
Astute posting. Thanks.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 15:13 utc | 213

“of 5.2 million tweets on the social media network from February 23 to March 8, between 60 to 80% were shared by fake accounts. What’s more, 90% of those posts were pro-Ukraine.”
Posted by: Dr. Kassandra Pari | Sep 13 2022 14:55 utc | 195
I’m pretty sure that if you examine the comment sections of the MSM and even blogs, you’d find the exact same amount of bot involvement and pro-Ukr tendencies etc.

Posted by: Zet | Sep 13 2022 15:13 utc | 214

I’ve been coming here for a long time, and, no offence to B who I respect a lot, this is the first time I’ve been really disappointed in anything that’s been posted here. This “proposal” is ridiculous, inane, idiotic, a complete defeat for Russia. Not worth discussing any further.

Posted by: Guy from US | Sep 13 2022 15:18 utc | 215

I was going to thank #4. Then #5. Then practically every reply here.
Does just any NATO bot get to make such a ridiculous suggestion?
This operation should be prosecuted until all the naughtsies are gone.

Posted by: Richard Whitney | Sep 13 2022 15:21 utc | 216

The significance of this proposal lies in the one good thing about it: it is a recognition of the seriousness of the current situation.
This was a civil war-promoted irresponsibly by Canada, the US, the UK and the various pseudo sovereign entities which were once signatories of the Warsaw Pact or parts of a country which was. It has now become an open clash of arms between Russia and the United States.
Because of its proxy origins and nature the actual conduct of the war, including decisions on battle lies in the hands of people whose very existence is denied- the NATO officers who command the artillery, the hundreds of special service personnel (SAS etc) actually carrying out missions and, perhaps most important, the specialists choosing targets for artillery strikes and directing both artillery and missile fire.
This means that catastrophic escalation is left to chance, or, at best, in the hands of seconded military who are likely to have volunteered to fight in Ukraine for political and emotional reasons-fascists and nuts.
No wonder that people are growing afraid of what could happen in a battle field in which Nazi militias, infected by irrational racial hatreds and tainted by weird mystical death cults and satanism, and nuclear power plants are rubbing shoulders with long range missile systems on the Russian borders.
There is no chance that anything resembling this peace will be agreed unless the neo-liberal oligarch Fifth Column is prevailing in the Kremlin. That is the only question that matters at the moment.

Posted by: bevin | Sep 13 2022 15:21 utc | 217

Russia was probably authorized under resolution 2202 to intervene when Ukraine was shelling the Donbass from Feb 14 to 24 and refused to stop when presented with security guarantee on the 21st. There is responsibility to enforce ceasefire and remove heavy weapons.

Posted by: Les | Sep 13 2022 15:21 utc | 218

@Posted by: Guy from US | Sep 13 2022 15:18 utc | 214
Yes, the proposal obviously implies defeat. Probably because of recent events.
I’m not sure if it’s MoA’s job to never discuss defeat.

Posted by: ThrowsOfWar | Sep 13 2022 15:22 utc | 219

»Russia pays for damaged civilian buildings and infrastructure
But who will decide which buildings were destroyed by Ukraine and which by Russia?
»All political prisoners must be released
Including Azov type battallions?
»Russia acknowledges the violation of international law in 2022
Will never happen. Putin scrupulously adhered to international law, and many of the statements made reflect similar arguments made by the US when they intervened in Yugoslavia, and late in Libya & Iraq, except the US lied about the pretexts.
Almost everything positive in the text could have been attained if Ukraine had adhered to the Minks agreements.
Completely fails to acknowledge the death cult regime leading Ukraine to damnation.

Posted by: webej | Sep 13 2022 15:24 utc | 220

If you want to talk about a potential peace agreement, at least it must be established who the parties to the conflict are. It is not simply Russia vs. Ukraine. Any proposal that fails to mention the US as a dominant instigator is not honest and must be seen as a “proposal”.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 13 2022 15:25 utc | 221

It is highly unlikely that this proposal will be accepted by either side
The Ukrops genuinely seem to believe that they can win – as do their western backers
The Ukrops will fight until exhausted and will take whatever casualties they feel may be needed
Eventually reality may intrude – they may be suffering very heavy casualties over 50K KIA at least maybe twice this. Their economy has been destroyed and they are effectively purely funded by the West – this may continue for a very long time
A beaten side may resist for a very very long time e.g. the Confederates, Boers and WW II Germans and Japanese
The Russians will not accept this proposal either as it does not meet their minimum requirements , DM, DN and full rights for Russian speakers – although there are some nice words to that effect the verification by anything western linked cannot be accepted
– However will the Russians be willing to make the necessary sacrifices in blood and treasure to win? Will they be willing to inflict the damage on Ukraine needed to win?
The Russian government seems very complacent and hopefully the latest Kharkov area debacle will wake people up

Posted by: Aslangeo | Sep 13 2022 15:27 utc | 222

And yet more unproven assertions.
Ukraine took a lot of damage since the last two weeks ? Where is the proof of that ? Apart from random assertions by the Russian MoD ? Following the Kharkov fiasco I think it’s far from enough to pull numbers out of thin air.
This is Ukraine’s last gasp. Again : how can you be sure of that ? Ukraine’s collapse has been predicted since around 26/2/22. After Mariupol. After the fall of Severodonetsk. Each time you had authoritative-sounding people asserting confidently that, anytime now, Ukie troops would disband and flee in panic. And I’m not even talking about even more authoritative statements that Ukraine would soon run out of shells, Tochka-U, fuel, and so on.
It’s quite extraordinary to see so few attemps to critically look at all past failed predictions. B is doing it to a certain extent, but he’s quite alone. And even b was badly mistaken, assuring us a few weeks ago that all Ukraine still had were “Jägerbattalions” and random 50-year olds picked in the street.

Posted by: Micron | Sep 13 2022 15:27 utc | 223

@Guy from US
Russia is already throughly defeated. This is simply damage control. I expect similar content in other pro Russian commentators.

Posted by: Pobeda | Sep 13 2022 15:28 utc | 224

Far from violating “international law in 2022”, Russia acknowledged the declaration of independence by the Autonomous Republics of the Donbas, and followed this by agreeing to their requests for assistance against ongoing and pending assaults by the Ukraine as documented by the OSCE monitors in the Ukraine, in full accord with the UN Grand Charter, Chapter VIi, Article 51, “Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.”
To determine guilt, Elensky, all living present and past US Presidents,Vice-Presidents, Secretaries of State and Defence, Heads of Intelligence Agencies, as well as Victoria Nuland, together with all living British Prime Ministers, Defence and Intelligence Heads should stand trial for Crimes Against the Peace and Crimes Against Humanity at the Hague.
Reparations should be paid by the USA, UK, Germany, France and Ukraine for the damage done to Ukrainians and the region due to the coup they instigated, belligerence they supported and the failure to implement the Minsk Accords.
The balance of this piss-poor document, written by somebody ignorant or, more likely, feigning ignorance of the underlying situation, apparantly produced solely in order to be able to say, look how unreasonable Russia is for rejecting it. We all know that the USA is desperately racing trying to get their military aircraft combat ready, their missile interceptors working, build new nuclear weapons, successfully complete their hypersonic missile program, and are probably working desperately on cyberwarfare, AI, passive radar, radar suppression and other technologies hoping to have them ready for wars with Russia and China that they will likely lose before the country collapses, and so will do anything to obfuscate and delay, but this time wasting proposal is insufficiently credible to waste more than the few minutes of time it has taken to show that it’s entire premise is flawed, meaning that the balance is so unsound as to require dismissal.

Posted by: Hermit | Sep 13 2022 15:30 utc | 225

No need to get too agitated about this so-called peace proposal. My take on this is that in a typical eye-to-eye confrontation he who blinks first reveals who has the upper hand.

Posted by: YIU | Sep 13 2022 15:32 utc | 226

@Tom Pfotzer #173
You said

There’s been a lot of debate about the actual war situation; whether Russia is spent, or adroitly executing the SMO, etc.
The next few weeks will tell a big story, and will likely very significantly define the possibility and framework of any negotiations.
But that is actually only a minor aspect of the full story.

Disagree completely. What is happening now is pure Twitter warfare by the Ukraine vs. Clausewiczian policy actions by Russia.
The key is troops: Ukraine has thrown its fancy Western trained reserves in, gotten 20%/4K to 7K out of ~30K of them killed – as well as a ton of equipment, and in turn done almost zero actual damage to Russian, LDPR, Chechen or any other SMO force.

As others have noted, this is a war to decide if U.S. Empire rules the world, or we have multi-polar self-determination. That’s what this is all about. Russia, China, Iran, the Global South, all know it full-well.

No, it isn’t.
This is a small tithe of Russia’s military engaging in a Special Military Operation and succeeding in its objectives.
In addition, Russia the country has decisively won the economic war and gained the support or neutrality of most of the world in the process, but this is not the ROW vs. NATO shooting it out in Ukraine.

For actual peace to happen, the Global Predators – including the U.S. NeoCons and their cousins in the U.K. – need to visibly, expensively, dramatically and decisively fail.
The best way to achieve peace is to insure that the NeoCons et. al. are absolutely and unequivocally blamed and held accountable for the disasters they continue to visit upon the planet.

This is, at best, a fantasy.
Media control in the West guarantees that the worst possible outcome will never be known. And those who tell the truth via their kazoos will be drowned out by the same Foghorn of Big Media.
Furthermore, this characterization is wrong. The loudest voices supporting sending arms and money to Ukraine from the US and EU are the “liberals” admittedly cheered on by the neocons. But there is no question who is leading and populating this political movement: the left. The same left cheering on the FBI and CIA, etc etc. LOL.
The only way things change is when the negative effects of the policies of US and EU governments in power, are so bad that the constituents act to change said government – and repeat doing so until either economic affairs improve or actual change occurs. That’s the beauty of the present commodity supercycle: the Fed and ECB central banks can only destroy demand to compensate – which reinforces the negative dynamic.

Posted by: c1ue | Sep 13 2022 15:40 utc | 227

A. Pols | Sep 13 2022 12:44 utc | 115
Wilson’s 14 points from World War I – I liked in when my history teacher told me about Clemenceau’s reply – “14 points, Almighty God only needed ten”

Posted by: Aslangeo | Sep 13 2022 15:41 utc | 228

Membrum Virile (@63) must be a relative of Liz Truss: he has no idea where Krakow is…
If he manages to miss even the country, I don’t think he deserves to even be heard.
Go back to the video game and buy a map.

Posted by: SCan | Sep 13 2022 15:41 utc | 229

Posted by: RationalPeacekeeper | Sep 13 2022 15:12 utc | 208
The end of escalation is nuclear war. And that’s why we need to talk about peace.
WRONG!!!
We need to censor, sanction, emasculate, neutralize, defenestrate, condemn, prosecute, and expel from the community of nations, those states which engage in global militarism as a means to enforce their desired national economic objectives.
There can be no peace if one state and its perfidious proxies is free to engage in repeated provocations and military brinkmanship. The state that publicly states “Fuck the EU,” “Fuck the Iranians,” “Fuck the Chinks,” “Fuck Iraq,” “Fuck Libya,” Fuck Chile,” “Fuck Venezuela” “Fuck Panama,” “Fuck Grenada,” “Fuck Afghanistan,” Fuck every nation that refuses the imposition of our will, that state is the one that must be tied down like Gulliver at the hands of the Lilliputians who populate the multi-polar Global South.
Once that occurs the World may enter a period of peace and mutual prosperity.
And you need to change your MoA moniker. You have no claim to any scrap of rationality.

Posted by: Sushi | Sep 13 2022 15:42 utc | 230

@Posted by: c1ue | Sep 13 2022 15:40 utc | 226
While both sides shout the other is a liar, about literally everything under the sun, they will finally agree on this one thing.

Posted by: ThrowsOfWar | Sep 13 2022 15:43 utc | 231

Nope

Posted by: nwwoods | Sep 13 2022 15:44 utc | 232

Only a completely brain dead moron will write something like this – Russia to pay 100 billion but what about the 350 billion illegally seized that belongs to Russia? That’s part of the 100 or that’s extra? Who’s compensating Russia for the gross discrimination against it’s citizens and blatant russophobia in terms of lost business opportunities and mental trauma? Turkey which is nato and which is a major arms supplier to the ukronazis is a ‘ Peace ‘ country? Really? And why is there a waiting period for the Donbass republics to have a referendum when their entire population is demanding one right now? MoA is one of the best sites that’s covering this war and this kind of drivel has no place here

Posted by: Tranceislife | Sep 13 2022 15:45 utc | 233

“The simple fact is that the West wants its hands on Russian wealth.”
Posted by: cdvisiion
As has been painfully evident for some two or so centuries.

Posted by: nwwoods | Sep 13 2022 15:47 utc | 234

In my view that is a huge pile of bullshit.
The West has started the war by arming Ukraine for years and pushing it to attack the Donbass in mid-February 2022, which lead to the invasion.
So,it is the West that has to pay the bills. Specifically, the US and the UK should pay 90% of all damages since they are behind all this mess.
Also, what is the point of any such negotiations when the West has broken any agreements just like that?! There have been two Minsk agreements, internationally binding agreements, and the West supported Ukraine’s breaking them.
So, a peace deal would not be worth the paper it is written on.
And I don’t see any way to change that, Russia won’t trust any Westerner and Ukrainian for decades to come.
Except maybe a complete coup in Kiev, resulting in a half Ukrainian, half Russian government.
Portugal a peace country?!? I happen to live in this shithole, it is totally pro-Nato vassal and has supported any dirty US war for many years. Just recently there was a ranking where Portugal had the highest percentage of people admitting they hate Russia, higher than even in Poland and Baltic states.
In short, I am afraid, a nuclear war is the most likely solution, and once the US – the epicenter of all evil – are gone from the face of the planet, the world will start to thrive after a while.

Posted by: Nico | Sep 13 2022 15:47 utc | 235

This is not a peace agreement !
it is a signal to the russian oligarchs.You can get your money back (sanctions)
if something change there in the Moscow
this is step 2 in the war

Posted by: TheoWhat | Sep 13 2022 15:48 utc | 236

When I came to III(i), I ended reading it right there. Sorry.

Posted by: AlfredRusselWallace | Sep 13 2022 15:57 utc | 237

you have more chance of making a Zelenski – Johnson – Biden – Truss – Von der Leyen porno movie than you ever have of having that, even as a starting point.

Posted by: my world | Sep 13 2022 16:00 utc | 238

No chance for a start who would be the neutral “peace” countries

Posted by: CampaignForRealCats | Sep 13 2022 16:01 utc | 239

I already see some of those ‘peace countries’ have not only joined along with sanctions, seizures and banning of all things Russian, but even sold weapons to Ukraine, like Italy and Turkey for example.
Not exactly what i see as peace conducive behaviour. Their involvement would be biased against Russia, and their forces deployed to the war zone would be hardly neutral and end up as another obstacle to peace.

Posted by: Et Tu | Sep 13 2022 16:04 utc | 240

“IV. Economics:
1. Russia pays a significant compensation for civilian casualties, such as 100.000 Euro for each documented victim, distributed over 5-10 years.
2. Russia pays for damaged civilian buildings and infrastructure an amount of 100 billion euros, distributed over 10 years.”
And when does the west pay reparations for the ~billion people they have killed over the past few hundred years?
This is not a serious peace proposal. Filled with plethora of poison pills. The west had their chance with Gorbachev.
No more compromises.

Posted by: Joe | Sep 13 2022 16:05 utc | 241

@Posted by: Nico | Sep 13 2022 15:47 utc | 234
The world is thriving. The Gdp is 100 trillion.

Posted by: ThrowsOfWar | Sep 13 2022 16:06 utc | 242

“Such a peace will need international mediation. Since organizations such as the UN and OSCE are western-dominated, a balanced choice of countries has to be made which have kept a neutral status and no interest in continuing the war. Examples, not complete: Turkey, Portugal, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, India, China, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico.”
My Country (Italy) has been actively supporting Ukraine politically and economically and has been supplying weapons to the UAF. If I were a Russian decision maker I would not consider such a Country “neutral” and I would not accept its participation as a mediator in negotiations.
As a Russian I would also not trust that any kind of “US-swayable” organization could honestly supervise the implementation of any provision contained in such a treaty. Not after the Minsk II debacle. I would be convinced that the Western Countries were just trying to stall and buy time in order to rebuild the Ukraine military to fight Russia.

Posted by: Leonardo | Sep 13 2022 16:06 utc | 243

Europe should understand one thing, by stated American logic, Russia can now legally bomb Poland and other NATO countries.
Does anyone remember the Vietnam War? During this war, the Americans regularly bombed Laos and Cambodia, despite not being at war with either of them. The excuse the Americans gave was that the supply lines and bases of the Vietnamese resistance were across the border in these countries, therefore the United States of America had a perfectly legal right to regularly bomb.
Of course, in the American media, these supply lines had a name. I don’t know what the Vietamese called them, but for the American audience, what we were doing was bombing the ‘Ho Chi Minh Trail’. America was not bombing neutral countries, but was instead bombing ‘the Ho Chi Minh Trail’.
By such arguments, Russia now has the legal right to bomb the “Joe Biden Trail” of supply routes and bases in European countries.
The Americans also claimed a right of ‘hot-pursuit’ which allowed them to enter and attack the countries of Laos and Cambodia. It seems highly likely that the Russians can now make an equal claim while striking at known Ukrainian fighters being trained at NATO bases in NATO countries.
Of course, America does not believe in the rule of law. In America, the law or the rules don’t matter, only who is the enemy and what they are doing. It is like the situation on American streets, where right-wing protesters can easily get away with things that would send a left-wing protester to jail for the better part of the remainder of their life. Likewise, the American military can bomb and kill wherever they want to and never, ever break ‘the rules’ while doing so. But a military that is declared to be ‘the enemy’, can not even hold exercises inside their own country nor test a missile without Americans claims that ‘they can’t do that.’
America should make peace before things get worse. But then again, in America, in both parties, ‘peace’ is a four letter word. Representing both the poor state of American society, and the poor state of American education.

Posted by: Jesse James | Sep 13 2022 16:09 utc | 244

A fine proposal, RationalPeacekeeper. I have the following suggested additions:
Reparations to be paid to a Euro commision, who will charge a modest administrative fee and distribute any remainder in the form of scrip redeemable for Euro goods with a preference for German craftsmanship. Scrip (if any) to be handed out on the Polish border on a first come, first serve basis. Oh, and the Russian national anthem to be replaced by “I’m Sorry” by Brenda Lee.

Posted by: nazcalito | Sep 13 2022 16:09 utc | 245

“This is a Russian-friendly perspective” With such friends, who needs an enemy?
It is, from beginning to end, polluted by an imperial attitude towards Russia (neutral countries like Italy, Portugal, Austria, Switzerland? / Donbass Republics demilitarised?) Many points are sheer arrogant demands for Russia to give in to the Empire’s aims (Russia acknowledges the violation of international law (no such)… Nato acknowledges “responsibility” (open violation) for what happened since 2014…) Others are entirely overlooking Russia’s long-term strategic needs and facts on the ground. (Ukraine can politically become member of NATO… but no troops, no missiles…!?? Ukraine can become part of the EU!??) this is a sick joke, soaked in self-delusional imperial pride.
It is oddly similar to a plan made public months ago by one Gilbert Doctorow. This self-proclaimed lofty “intellectual” makes a show of being friend to Russia but is quite capable of conjuring up a venomous pie-in-the sky very similar this one.

Posted by: Sam | Sep 13 2022 16:11 utc | 246

I say Yes.

Posted by: Hypo Ten Youse | Sep 13 2022 16:11 utc | 247

aristodemos (203).
I was as always under the impression that the UK was the 51st US state, such is the compliance that Westminster has when Washington speaks, and that Europe has now fallen under the Monroe Doctrine, well most of the nations in Europe, why else would they be willing to commit economic suicide.
I can only hope now that Queen Elizabeth has passed on, that the UK breaks up into its respective countries.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 13 2022 16:14 utc | 248

Russia, NATO and Ukraine all regret the causalities.
Russia pays damages, NATO and Ukraine do not.
Sounds legit. (Not).

Posted by: wagelaborer | Sep 13 2022 16:14 utc | 249

And what if…
Russia simply pulls out without a peace treaty — enhances it’s borders to the west, threatening every tresspassing with tactical nuclear destruction — left the west behind its then backyard border — and never ever again makes any business with this westerly countries again? No more cheap energy for Europe. No more cheap commodities for Europe.
So or so… after 8 years of useless sanctions… I would guess Russia has learned to live with that.

Posted by: Nemo | Sep 13 2022 16:18 utc | 250

#241
Only a part of the world is thriving, and even there only an elite.

Posted by: Nico | Sep 13 2022 16:18 utc | 251

Posted by: GhostOfAdolf | Sep 13 2022 12:38 utc | 109
Agreed. Psyop. This treaty is not worth the paper it was written on and Russia should not accept it. Why? Russia is winning and even if it was not ,this treaty is offensive and should not be accepted.
Russia should answer like the Greek Hero ,Karaiskakis did in the 1820s to the Ottoman Turks .sending him a surrender treaty ; .to paraphrase, he said
“ my penis can blow trumpets, and I will fuck the Sultan and Muhammad and the Sultan’s Jew’s whore ( yes they had Neocons then too ). Either I will fuck them or they will fuck me “ . Yes, he had a foul mouth , but was very modest and generous as well, and he was being offered riches and titles beyond imagination to surrender. The speech he gave is on the net somewhere, and I work off memory . It can of course be translated easily with software.
He won the battle but was killed in a later one. This was a time when heroes died and thought nothing of their lives. What counted was that the Ottoman Turk at last was starting to be thrown out of Europe.

Posted by: Brother Ma | Sep 13 2022 16:20 utc | 252

@ RationalPeacekeeper | Sep 13 2022 15:12 utc | 208
thanks for your commentary and idealism… thanks for writing the article and the previous one in may 2022 as well… i appreciate your desire for peace in this difficult atmosphere where one side seems only intent on war and furthering its insane agenda – the west under usa-uk leadership of what appears a financial oligarch type of leadership…
i think sushi is being overly hard on you, but at some point idealism has to connect with realism too… i think the posters think you are off your rocker, but i don’t… we have to start somewhere…. i think some of your ideas are good and some are bad!!
i was thinking of how here in canada, quebec had a referendum on becoming independent.. the vote was very close.. i am not sure what would have happened if it had of went the other way! regarding crimea – it is clear that the west will never accept crimeas choice in this matter…the west will never accept anything and are intent on war and more war… i think that is what the realists here see, and i would have to include myself in this viewpoint… at the same time i would like to see an end to this madness.. so much has to happen to get back to some semblance of normalcy.. thanks for your post and for b for sharing it..

Posted by: james | Sep 13 2022 16:20 utc | 253

Ufff!
It started!
RF anounced massive attacks on whole front line….
I was already worried, because some Moscow oficials raised voice Putin to step down…
If there is a plan to lure ukros out of fortified positions, now they have them on open space…
I hope North Korean ammo is as good as Russian.
And Iranian drones are organized. Hkhmmmm.

Posted by: preseren3 | Sep 13 2022 16:23 utc | 254

Microdotty @222
What a weeping willow, a veritable Niobe of the tears. Wake up and smell the coffee. This war is fought primarily on a spiritual level between those who acknowledge Creator and those who are in the train of the Demiurge.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 16:25 utc | 255

Hermit @224
You done SAID it. Keep on keeping on.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 16:27 utc | 256

Posted by: Dr. Kassandra Pari | Sep 13 2022 15:06 utc | 201
yeah, while I was looking for the draft of this thing (not even a PR at NATO newsroom), I began to wonder if Laurie Meadows was the genius behind this MoA trial baloon.
anyhoo, I found Zelensk* brain trust re-tread. THE KYIV SECURITY COMPACT, INTERNATIONAL SECURITYGUARANTEES FOR UKRAINE: RECOMMENDATIONS, 9 pp (EN)

Posted by: sln2002 | Sep 13 2022 16:27 utc | 257

Jesse James | Sep 13 2022 16:09 utc | 243
” It is like the situation on American streets, where right-wing protesters can easily get away with things that would send a left-wing protester to jail for the better part of the remainder of their life.”
Me thinks you have partisan blinders on. The non armed visitors from across the US, middle Americans, to the US Capitol on Jan 6 have been locked away as if terrorists, without basic rights, hunted down even, some convicted of misdemeanor tresspassing but held without bail for over a year – in solitary even. The BLM violent protestors, hardly to be considered right-wing, were ignored as were their burning and looting and inflicting harm on the innocent population and the police. Arrests and jailed? Which ones?
Beyond that “reveal”, I would say you have otherwise put your attention on a reality we all suffer. And you point out quite blatant US criminality and hypocrisy.

Posted by: DoesItReallyMatter | Sep 13 2022 16:28 utc | 258

Posted by: james | Sep 13 2022 16:20 utc | 252
i think sushi is being overly hard on you
I was being polite.
And I held off on the wasabi.

Posted by: Sushi | Sep 13 2022 16:28 utc | 259

I doubt that there will be any negotiations. Russia just had a practice run on turning out the heat and lights in Ukraine.
Once winter arrives in Ukraine, Russia will turn off the heat and lights in western Ukraine (Russia just demonstrated how easy this is). Most people in western Ukraine and Kiev will emigrate to the EU (nobody will sit huddled in the cold and dark), Ukraine’s war machine will be impotent, and Russia will have successfully demilitarized and denazified Ukraine.
For this to be successful, Russia only needs winter to arrive 🙂 Don’t panic – “Winter is Coming”.

Posted by: Contrarian_Ed | Sep 13 2022 16:29 utc | 260

A minor but for me at any rate interesting wrinkle in the “peace” argument.
I saw in Athens last week graffiti by some Trotskyist sect sprayed on a concrete road barrier – “Victory and peace to Ukraine” with a hammer and sickle sprayed next to it. A Communist symbol actually banned in Ukraine itself, though whether these heroes of the Fourth International even know this is doubtful. Possibly under the “red” verbiage they get money from Soros, or perhaps even NATO directly…

Posted by: Waldorf | Sep 13 2022 16:29 utc | 261

If this is being floated by MOA then thingsust be really dire for Russia. This prooosak is so many times worse thank Minsk. If Putin is too scared to escalate then by all means he should go for this. And if the Russian people stary rebelling against him, I dont blame them.
I do agree there should be peace eventually. But I would wait till after the winter. Lets see what happens in Europe. Most likely Russia (if they can avoid another massive defeat on the battlefield) will be in a better position come March

Posted by: Comandante | Sep 13 2022 16:29 utc | 262

Early reports, unconfirmed of Ukraine breaking through parts of the Kherson defensive lines. I try to avoid making predictions because war is inherently unpredictable but I think with the badly degraded supply lines, this front will collapse in the next 2-3 weeks with a lot of POWs and captured equipment. Russia is good at retreating but it won’t be easy to get back across the Dnipro.

Posted by: Yenwoda | Sep 13 2022 16:30 utc | 263

SCan@228
A more commonly used term for “Membrum Vitale” is Big Prick.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 16:30 utc | 264

#253
Any source?
I am on Telegram and have not read any such news, yet.
I did read that Scholz called Putin today, they talked for 1.5 hours, but judging from the summary, Putin probably thought to himself, what a moron…

Posted by: Nico | Sep 13 2022 16:31 utc | 265

In a NATO-Russia war, the members of NATO are not neutral. C’mon man.
Italy and Portugal are both members of NATO. Both host major NATO military bases. IIRC, during the NATO wars in the Middle East, the air base in Italy had a major involvement.
Also, the EU is at war with Russia. Minister Borrell regularly makes war-like statements towards Russia. The EU is involved in economic warfare and diplomatic warfare against Russia, even if they leave the military component to NATO. But such a legalistic arrangement designed by corporate lawyers does not make ‘neutrality’. Switzerland and Austria are both members of the EU.
A ‘neutral’ stance towards this conflict is what China has taken. Maintaining trade and relations with both sides of the conflict. That is what neutrality looks like.

Posted by: Jesse James | Sep 13 2022 16:32 utc | 266

If Russia is already defeated, then why are the troll armies still being paid to shitpost?
No, the Empire of Lies & Delusion shot its wad in the Ukraine and needs to capitalize on the “Shock & Awe™” while it lasts.
Posters should keep in mind what defeat actually would mean for Russia. Defeat would not just be a loss of face and a new president. Defeat means the end of the Russian Federation. How far will the Russian people go to prevent that from happening? I think the sentiment expressed by Putin that they have no need of a world with no Russia might be typical. If Russia is to be destroyed then they have no need for the rest of the world, and it might as well be destroyed also.
I don’t see Russia calling it quits because of this recent Ramstein offensive. The only possibility for peace before the nukes fly is if the Empire/NATO is beaten or otherwise loses its ability to prosecute the war without escalating further, and for some reason decides not to escalate.
Now if the Russians had hit Ramstein with a cute little tactical nuke months ago like I recommended then there would have never been a Ramstein offensive, and the Empire might reconsider its policy of endless escalation.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 13 2022 16:33 utc | 267

Only time heals. Turn it into frozen conflict and warring parties will lose interest. That will allow war hysteria to dissipate in meanwhile. After that it will end where it is. 30 years down the lane new dynamics may emerge. Easiest way out.
But what will freeze conflict? Russia is doing its best for same.

Posted by: Vikram | Sep 13 2022 16:35 utc | 268

That reads as rub Russian noses in the dirt.
Absolve the other players.
Bit more work to do!

Posted by: jpc | Sep 13 2022 16:36 utc | 269

Who would ever forward this proposal? If RF continues on their current trajectory it won’t matter what they accomplish militarily. The populations now trapped by UAF forces with nothing but rubles are completely screwed and subject to whatever, and this after years of living under the capricious artillery of Ukraine. There is every chance the Donbas will end up a largely depopulated no-man’s land with Mariupol back in the hands of Kiev.
Is now too late to talk about what should have been done. Russian MOD and even Cassad have no legitimacy. There is no way Ukraine could have launched this counter if they had in fact been absorbing the amounts of damage regularly reported.
The truth is the RF has failed. All that is left is cynical manipulation of whomever for gains that benefit a handful far from the front lines. To paraphrase an much older quote:
“Everything the US told me about their own actions is a lie, but everything they told me about Russia’s was the truth”
https://t-me.translate.goog/s/maryananaumova?after=362&_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

Posted by: Miller | Sep 13 2022 16:36 utc | 270

ROS @ 247
Great Britain “should be broken up into its countries” Those countries would be the Celtic/Pictish and Norse ones. So we would agree on independence for Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man and the current quasi state of Northern Ireland, which now that the Catholics of Eire are no longer mere milksops to the Vatican, a united Ireland. Fuck the British Empire.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 16:37 utc | 271

Quote
“any NATO countries in any way, then that might even trigger NATO’s Art. 5 directly (there was some talk about that by NATO some months ago already)…”
This fear of Russia about article 5 is so much palpable that it has encouraged nato to bully coward Russia as they see it.
In fact Russia should have encouraged war rather than hiding for last 10 years in some excuse or another.
If it is not ready then it is Russian fault.
Anybody can see even 10 tears ago that anglos are plotting destruction of Russia who acts like coward

Posted by: Sam | Sep 13 2022 16:41 utc | 272

Posted by: DoesItReallyMatter | Sep 13 2022 16:28 utc | 259
you ignore the violent, lawless, murderous cops which set these conflicts and riots off, and inflame them with provocateurs, the way that the “peace proposal” ignores the reality that the US and NATO are responsible for this war.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Sep 13 2022 16:42 utc | 273

@Posted by: Nico | Sep 13 2022 16:18 utc | 250
The whole world is thriving, besides some specific countries that are wasting their manpower and resources on war.
The countries that thrive the most right now are China and India, which are becoming as rich as Europe and America.

Posted by: ThrowsOfWar | Sep 13 2022 16:43 utc | 274

I have a much simpler plan. Ukraine to surrender unconditionally. All Ukrainian military personnel to be kept as POWs. All of Eastern and South eastern Ukraine is ceded to Russia. Ukraine becomes a land locked state. Ukraine agrees never to have any military, Russia guarantees its territorial integrity.

Posted by: Ravi V | Sep 13 2022 16:44 utc | 275

Billygoat Gruff @ 268
Aren’t you paying attention? NO NUKES!!! That opens Pandora’s Box. Megadeath. You must give consideration to the kinetic power of Russian hypersonic missiles, of which they have a global monopoly. One targeted at the Rottenchild Bank in City of London and the second at Wall $treet would be message enough. Go for the coverted rulers, not the mere minions and hapless serfs.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 16:44 utc | 276

Both sides have “official” positions and hidden positions.
The west, officially, will never agree to surrender any “Ukrainian territory” including Crimea and Donbas. But they might accept that.
Russia, officially, will never agree to having Ukraine being NATO. But it did accept bordering NATO states for a long time. 1991 Ukraine was special as it included areas that Russia considers existential, because of Black Sea access, proximity to Moscow, and large and historic Russian populations. These areas were contested going back to 1991.
Pragmatic western analysts have long suggested the Donbas (at least) would be better off ceded to Russia to get those “commies” out of Ukrainian politics. A similar principle applies to Crimea but no one in the west will say that because it’s so strategically important to Russia and no one in the west wants to help Russia strategically. Obviously the west would want to use it as a bargaining chip NOT to be given away beforehand (though, only an unimaginable Ukrainian offensive, or breakup of Russia, could ever reclaim it).
Russia meanwhile was tolerant of NATO moving up to the Russian border for a very long time, and only entered into SMO when Donbas was threatened. Russia justified the SMO on the basis of Right To Protect ethnic Russians in Donbas. NOT on the basis that “we demand neutrality.” There is no accepted justification for war related to forcing a neighboring country not to join a hostile alliance. It’s often a practical matter, or a major power demand (ie Monroe Doctrine), but it’s not an universally accepted tenet of international law. This gives many western apologists the ability to disingenuously argue about “Ukrainian Sovereignty” and “agency” though no vassal state or neighbor of the US has either of those anyway.
So I think the core potential trade is territory for “sovereignty” (ie NATO in Rump Ukraine which WILL be a western vassal state–which gives the West the key thing it wants–a military bases as close as possible to Russia all over).
This also pushes the Ukrainian border back from Moscow so that it might be about as acceptable as other recent NATO members (eg Baltics).
A near term cessation of hostilities is more likely to come from North Korean style ceasefire anyway. The ceasefire would do essentially the trade I’ve suggested. The new militarily settled borders are accepted for the time being with no other settled principles.

Posted by: Charles Peterson | Sep 13 2022 16:46 utc | 277

Miller @ 271
Troll alert. More anti-Russian bullshit. Who cuts the paycheck?

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 16:46 utc | 278

Thanks for your clear thinking and practical solutions b. Now is the right time for that.
Uznfortunately the “west” is not governed by rational people who have the ethical capacity to admit mistakes or acknowledge the real historical context. They only have geopolitical objectives and a lust for power over others decision making processes.
President Putin summed up the dilemma; the US is not agreement capable.
In both WW1 & WW2 attempts are made for peace and were rebuffed by those who were hellbent on war.
War represents a failure of policy.
I despair about the historic economic impact caused by these insane megalomaniacs pulling the levers. they usually get it wrong. They pull the lever and get unexpcted surprise results.
The world will tire of thee flakes and charlatans. Mass poverty is unavoidable. Give peace a chance.

Posted by: Paul GV | Sep 13 2022 16:47 utc | 279

This reminds me of oil/gas price cap.
First they try to force Russia what price for its goods must she sell.
Now they try to force Russia what kind of piece agreement must she accept.
As they say: njet and njet.
There will be no piece agreement, Zelensky and BoJo made sure of that. Only unconditional capitulation.

Posted by: Abe | Sep 13 2022 16:48 utc | 280

Sam @ 273
Reason Russia did not make its move in ’14 is that its army needed reorganization and its armaments needed to be massively reconstituted in order to fight a possible long war against the evil which is NATOstan.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 16:48 utc | 281

As many have noted, this is a 100% non-starter for many reasons. Today in his remarks prior to the beginning of the Foreign Minister’s Business Council, Lavrov made the following critical observation:
“Your advice is always essential to developing our practical line. Especially now, when the West has been waging a real hybrid war against Russia for many years. After the forced start of a special military operation, it acquired an unprecedented character. The goal is declared openly: to destroy the economy, to push our country to the “outskirts” of world politics. Recently, they have openly called for the use of sanctions in order to undermine internal political stability.”
Indeed, today RT reports the Finnish PM said “Sanctions must hit ordinary Russians” while addressing the EU Parliament. IMO, that’s a declaration of Total War on Russia. NATO/EU is the main combatant being faced by Russia, not Ukraine. Russia already offered a “peace plan” with NATO in December, the reply being the current Hybrid War, which NATO is clearly not ready to end as it’s busy escalating.
I also want to report these further words by Lavrov that follow the above paragraph:
“Against the backdrop of the global crisis provoked by the United States and its satellites, in parallel, a systemic rethinking and reformatting of world economic relations continues. The priority of the agenda is the formation of new mechanisms of cooperation instead of the tools traditionally used by the West to maintain and strengthen its dominance to the detriment of other countries. We are talking about expanding the use of national currencies, sovereign payment systems, a consistent reduction in the role of the dollar and the euro in international trade, as well as the creation of a new infrastructure not controlled by the West and not manipulated by it, which would include international transport corridors and value chains.” [All Emphasis Mine]
As Lavrov clearly states, it’s the Outlaw US Empire and its vassals–NATO–that must be negotiated with when the time finally arrives for such talks. That the writer of this treaty proposal ignores that reality shows its naivety of the entire affair.
As I noted yesterday in linking and discussing Crooke’s latest essay, the next major steps will be taken by EU/EC in declaring a dictatorship through “emergency” powers being sought that “would transform the EU literally into a wartime Command Economy”–dictatorship.
Fortunately for the EU it’s divided relative to the Finnish PM’s desires:
“However, a complete visa ban proposal for all Russian tourists has failed to gain unanimous support in the bloc. Germany, France, Hungary, Luxembourg and Austria have raised objections. EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell also warned against the move. ‘I don’t think that to cut the relationship with the Russian civilian population will help and I don’t think that this idea will have the required unanimity,’ he told Austria’s ORF TV on August 29.”
RT reports on today’s statements to the press by Kremlin spokesman Peskov:
“‘We believe – in unison with our Chinese comrades – that the existence of a unipolar world is impossible,‘ Peskov told journalists on Tuesday.
“Moscow and Beijing agree that it’s ‘an impossible situation‘ when ‘the so-called ‘Golden billion’ is claiming the right to invent rules in economy, in politics and the right to impose its will on other countries,’ he noted.” [Emphasis Original]
All of the above and much more show NATO isn’t at all ready to seriously discuss peace with Russia, China, or the Multipolar World. (China just experienced another very serious Cyber Attack from the Outlaw US Empire, and Azerbaijan’s attack on Armenia was certainly instigated by the Empire’s prodding.)

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 13 2022 16:49 utc | 282

I’m hoping that while the US and NATO are hyperfocused on the latest aggressions against Russia that Imran Khan can make progress in overturning the coup against him in Pakistan.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Sep 13 2022 16:52 utc | 283

If we assume, for the sake of argument, that Ukraine is victorious here…
I think the question is whether they really even want Donbas and/or Crimea.

Posted by: ThrowsOfWar | Sep 13 2022 16:52 utc | 284

Charles Peterson @278
Please do bear in mind that the current statelet called Ukraine is not comprised primarily of fully ethnic Ukrainians. Rather, it is a Frankenstein monster created as an administrative unit, Ukraine SSR, by the Bolsheviks and the Soviets. Thus, to claim alleged Ukraine sovereignty is a faux pas.
“Fuck the EU” said the Maidan Cookie Monster, Viccious Nudelman on behalf of the Talmudist Khazarian Mafiya. Those people call the shots in Kiefffff. So no talk about international law, which has long been a dead letter by the puppet regime in the Di$trict of Corruption, in full obedience to their “master’s voice”, the highest levels of international financiers.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 16:55 utc | 285

Wat is going on with humanity?
We are being disembodied.
Madness, madness, madness!
Has permeated
and paved over human memory.
Unlimited accumulation of wealth
can and has purchased control.
Confession not perfected.
Human nature smothered
lest it be uncovered.
Doom persists
It must be by Plan.
Find and expose the Plan.
Start with science.
Define “science”.

Posted by: chu teh | Sep 13 2022 16:55 utc | 286

This “peace proposal” is not simply a completely absurd pile of garbage, but also shows that whoever took time to write this drivel is completely, utterly, disconnected from REALITY.
I agree with those on this board who are quite surprised that B decided to publish such drivel.

Posted by: RockTime | Sep 13 2022 16:56 utc | 287

@aristodemos
NATO did not send troops now, and it wouldn’t have then. But in 2014 western weapons wouldn’t make any difference, because Russia would walk over Ukraine before that.

Posted by: Pobeda | Sep 13 2022 16:56 utc | 288

Rogov says the biggest concentration of nazis and equipment ever in Zaporozhye front. How long will Russians resist before collapsing? I give 2-3 days.

Posted by: Pobeda | Sep 13 2022 16:58 utc | 289

Minsk 3.

Posted by: Wade Hampton | Sep 13 2022 17:01 utc | 290

Without digging through all the postings and enumerating them, it appears conclusive that somewhere in the neighborhood of 85% of posters on this particular matter are opposed to the alleged “peace talks” as proposed by an obviously partisan individual. Yes, most of us fully agree that the proposal is Western-flavored bullshit.
The world is at war without it being formally declared by any party. It is all about sovereignty versus hegemony, as many astute posters have indicated. There is no sense in crying “peace” when one of the parties demands total submission to the “Rule of Order” by the financial elite and all their minions, servants and serfs.
So long to the site for several hours as like Cincinnatus I have serious physical work to accomplish today. Carry on.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 17:02 utc | 291

…THE KYIV SECURITY COMPACT…
Posted by: sln2002 | Sep 13 2022 16:27 utc | 256
Thank you for the link to this document and ouch, that doc simply shows that it is really existential for Russia.
This is the document we should be discussing; not some delusional peace treaty of a random person.
Here’s the link again: PDF.

Posted by: Zet | Sep 13 2022 17:02 utc | 292

Disappointing, absurd and utterly laughable. Even if this is way too restricted too one specific theater of conflict, the minor parties in this conflict (Germany, France, most of the EU, Poland, Baltic states) could agree with it but the major parties (US, UK, Russia) never. The US will fight to the last Ukrainian to save its empire in decline. Dedollarization means the end of it and that’s exactly what Russia is now doing. The author doesn’t even have the courtesy to acknowledge the primal US role in this conflict. The Russian leadership accepting this would be beyond suicide. They would be worse than Yeltsin.
In my opinion a realistic peace proposal would be like:
Current front line remains more or less how it is
The republics get their independence. After 8 bloody years of Kiev junta massacres this is permittable.
NATO troops and mercenaries are banned from Ukraine territory
Nazism is eradicated and the minorities (like the Russians speaking ones amongst others) have a right to a decent life and aren’t persecuted
In the east and south Russian language is officially permitted and not persecuted
The remainder of Ukraine has NAM status

Posted by: xor | Sep 13 2022 17:06 utc | 293

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 13 2022 15:00 utc | 201
Sherman quote in Full –
War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out.
I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war. The United States does and must assert its authority, wherever it once had power; for, if it relaxes one bit to pressure, it is gone, and I believe that such is the national feeling.
What did WT Sherman mean – War is hell, but if you have to fight then do not temper or hesitate and only complete victory will do

Posted by: Aslangeo | Sep 13 2022 17:09 utc | 294

mic drop

A. SECURITY GUARANTEES – COMMITMENTS BY A CORE GROUP OF GUARANTORS REGARDING UKRAINE’S SELF-DEFENCE CAPABILITIES AND CAPACITIES TO DETER AN ATTACK
CONCEPT AND PRINCIPLES
[…]
The guarantees must not constrain Ukraine to limit the size or strength of its armed forces. Nor should they be drawn in exchange for a specific status, such as neutrality, or put other obligations or restraints on Ukraine. With those guarantees, Ukraine will sustain its capacity to ensure its self-defence. Their aim is to strengthen Ukraine’s territorial integrity, sovereignty, and political independence within its internationally recognized borders. The guarantees should also support Ukraine’s commitment to continuing democratic reforms, as specified in the European Council Conclusions of June 23-24, 2022 on granting Ukraine EU candidate status. Effective security for Ukraine is closely related to a modern society that guarantees its citizens their fundamental rights….

ahahahahahahaha

Posted by: sln2002 | Sep 13 2022 17:10 utc | 295

Left wing protesters at the 2017 inauguration of Donald Trump were charged by prosecutors with ‘Rioting’.
They did not occupy any Federal building. Nobody died during the protests. At most, they scuffled with the police and perhaps broke a window. They were largely targeted by the police and ‘kettled’ on the sidewalk. Journalists who were with the group were gathered up in the ‘kettle’ and also got charged with ‘Rioting’ for doing their job as reporters.
Federal prosecutors under Trump sought 75 year prison sentences under this law for ‘Rioting’. Including journalists.
They forced some defendants into plea agreements with this threat.
Others stood their ground against this outrageous charge and took the time and expense (legal and travel costs) to insist on a trial.
A jury of 12 good people acquitted the first batch brought to court. At that point, Trump’s Federal Prosecutors admitted defeat and that taking the remainder to following jury trials would be a useless waste of money.
That is how ‘left-wing’ protesters are treated. Those are all facts. Look them up. Probably won’t find much in the Democrat controlled media, but those facts are out there and can be found.
Notice that you have not heard this legal charge of ‘Rioting’ in this more recent cases. No prosecutor has been asking for 75 year sentences. Neither have you heard the term ‘Felony Murder’, even though people died during the commission of what has been charged as felonies. You certainly have not heard of any claims along the lines of “Felony Murder of a Law Enforcement Officer”, which IIRC could get you the death penalty in places where the Republicans control the laws.
If left-wing protesters had done this, perhaps in 2001 when post-election audits did show that the election of 2000 was in fact stolen by the Bush Crime Family, you would not have seen the Cheney regime letting left-wing protesters off with only a few foot-soldiers getting a short time in prison and the leaders of the ‘riot’ walking away scot-free. A left-winger who read Trump’s exact speech word-for-word (perhaps adjusting a few political things) would be charged with “Incitement to Riot” and probably the “Felony Murder” charges on top of that.
I wonder if left-wingers who hypothetically plotted to kidnap Gov DeSantis and publicly display him hog-tied in opposition to his policies would get acquitted? Somehow, I don’t think so.

Posted by: Jesse James | Sep 13 2022 17:13 utc | 296

This kind of peace proposal – or similar – Russia will sign if it has a losing hand.
We dont know yet whether that is the case or whether the West is playing its last card with the offensives.
The problem with this proposal is the enforcement (we’ll need Aliens to be the “peace countries”) and the fact that the referendums will declare joining with Ukraine. The second is because the Russian propaganda is very uncompetitive vs. the West.
Serbia had even a UN resolution but still lost Kosovo. Beware of peace agreements that are wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Posted by: alek_a | Sep 13 2022 17:13 utc | 297

This is a well thought out and well-intentioned proposal. HOWEVER, if Moscow even considered it, they should get their heads examined. As one comment mentioned earlier, it’s Minsk 3. It relies on guarantees from the West – guarantees that will not be honored any more than previous ones were. If Moscow settled for this “half a loaf” it would make all but inevitable a much bigger and more destructive war in the future. IMO, this current WWIII (because that’s what it is) is our only hope for a “soft landing” from the Global American Empire (GAE). That rests on unconditional Russian military victory in Ukraine and economic/financial victory of Eurasia over the GAE USDollar-dominated system. If (if) such a soft landing occurs, that will mean collapse and restructuring in western countries, above all in the US, comparable to what the USSR went through in the 1990s. It won’t be pretty but better than the alternative: “Limitless tyranny at home, endless war abroad. George Orwell’s boot stomping on a human face forever but dragged out in rainbow glitter and a feather boa while carving up your kids’ sexual parts. America: sliding quietly under the Woke waves never to be seen again while imposing the same poison on the rest of the world.” More here: http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2022/september/08/it-s-even-later-than-you-thought/

Posted by: Jim Jatras | Sep 13 2022 17:14 utc | 298

It seems B has opened his electric bill and is waving white flag. A rather weak attempt. This is why bureaucracies are better at this work – self checking.
Treaties are waste of time and paper and destabilizing as they give impression of resolution. But then who enforces treaty and what is to be done when treaty is violated?
If such a negotiation were to be done, it would not be done in public and each party would begin by demand twice what they expect to settle for.
If anything that has been said so far about existential nature of conflic, Russias detirmination, Russias capabilities and Russias situation is true (which I begin to dought) then Russia who forgo the paperwork, dilineate it requirements and make known that they look forward to conclusion and that shooting will stop when aims are acheived and mutual cease fire declared.

Posted by: jared | Sep 13 2022 17:14 utc | 299

I agree that this is a war on Russia prepared and provoced by the US empire.
RationalPeacekeeper | Sep 13 2022 15:12 utc | 208

Rational?

1. Russia acknowledges the violation of international law in 2022
RationalPeacekeeper Peace Proposal

So, Rational,you are not.
Peacekeeper?

You have sunk one of our ships, we will sink one of yours if you do not stop meddling in Ukraine. First publicly announce it, talk straight.
RationalPeacekeeper Peace Proposal

Yupeee, declaration of war is the new PeacePlan. You are as a Peacekeeper as Dr.Strangelove.
Not so naive, just jumping through the Overton window.
Why is b. involved in such an operation is suspicious.

The end of escalation is nuclear war. And that’s why we need to talk about peace.
Posted by: RationalPeacekeeper | Sep 13 2022 15:12 utc | 208

We don’t need to “talk about”, we need to end escalation.
We need to censor, sanction, emasculate, neutralize, defenestrate, condemn, prosecute, and expel ( © Sushi @229)….our own warmongers.

Posted by: La Bastille | Sep 13 2022 17:14 utc | 300