A Peace Proposal For Ukraine

September 13, 2022

b here:

The text below, an outline of a peace agreement over Ukraine, was send to me by a west-European source that wants to stay anonymous. Its purpose is to begin a discussion about the content of such an agreement. As such it is starting point, not an end result.

I personally disagree with many of its clauses. With some for practical reasons, with others for the legal consequences they imply (III.1).

But one has to start somewhere if one wants to discuss how the war in Ukraine should or can end.

—

A Peace Russia Should Propose

By RationalPeacekeeper

Background:

Nobody knows where this is going to end. The only thing for sure is that the risk of nuclear Armageddon for humanity has increased dramatically. This is insane. At the moment, no party seems to be interested in ending the conflict peacefully. However minute the prospect of settling this conflict may be, and however illusory it might be perceived, it is worth discussing visionary plans on which reasonable people could agree on.

This is a Russian-friendly perspective. People brainwashed with western propaganda will have a hard time to digest it. The objective therefore is not to promote to dishonest catchwords such as “territorial integrity” or “defending our freedom” but to focus on what is best for people’s lives, based on humanitarian principles and readiness for reconciliation.

Such a peace will need international mediation. Since organizations such as the UN and OSCE are western-dominated, a balanced choice of countries has to be made which have kept a neutral status and no interest in continuing the war. Examples, not complete: Turkey, Portugal, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, India, China, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico. These will be called “peace countries” in the following. This is how a sketch of an agreement could look:

I. Military:
1. General ceasefire
2. Soldiers of peace countries are deployed to the front line after conflict parties’ guaranties.
3. Heavy weapons are retreated at a distance of 30 km from the frontline.
4. Irrespective of details, the overall objectives are transparency of the peace process and to hinder the outbreak of spontaneous hostilities.
5. Peace countries control the ceasefire agreement. Treason of individuals in favor of one of the conflict parties must be severely punished.
6. Conflict parties commit to reveal reconnaissance data when ceasefire violations occur.

II. Territory:
1. Since a referendum with clear outcome has taken place, Crimea remains Russian.
2. The Donbas Republics are recognized, but have to cede a part of their sovereignty to an international administration run by the peace countries. They must be demilitarized.
3. The oblasts Kherson and Zaporizhzhia are under sovereignty and administration of the peace countries for two years and become demilitarized.
4. After two years, a referendum is held to decide whether Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia (each for their own) become independent or remain part of Ukraine. Independence implies the right to become part of the Russian federation later. The anonymous referendum is organized by the peace countries. A majority of 60 percent is required for the decision, otherwise the referendum has to be repeated. After the referendum, there is a transition period in which people are guaranteed a fair compensation for abandoned property.
5. The oblasts Cherniv, Sumy, Kharkov, Dnjepropetrowsk, Nikolaev and Odessa become demilitarized.

III. Politics:
1. Russia acknowledges the violation of international law in 2022, NATO and EU acknowledge their responsibility for the conflict since 2014.
2. Ukraine can politically become a NATO member, but no foreign troops and no missile systems can be deployed on its territory. Ukraine can become EU member.
3. Ukraine’s constitution must guarantee equal rights to all ethnicities. Russian must become an official language.
4. All political prisoners must be released, all parties prohibited since 2014 must be allowed, all media closed since 2014 must become legal again. All laws concerning “collaboration with occupants” must be abolished.
5. Extremism and promoting ethnic conflicts must be punished by law.
6. Ukraine must tolerate access and control of the above regulations by peace countries.
7. Arms control negotiations are resumed.

IV. Economics:
1. Russia pays a significant compensation for civilian casualties, such as 100.000 Euro for each documented victim, distributed over 5-10 years.
2. Russia pays for damaged civilian buildings and infrastructure an amount of 100 billion euros, distributed over 10 years.
Remark: this is not to disregard civilian casualties in Russia or Donbas, but a consequence of the economic realities.
3. NATO/EU and allied countries lift all sanctions against Russia. Russia commits to pre-war obligations.

V. Society:
1. Russia, Ukraine and NATO officially regret the casualties since 2014.
2. Amnesty in Ukraine and Russia for all non-violent criminal offenses regarding the conflict.
3. War crimes of individuals are brought to a court consisting of judges of peace countries. Conflict parties cede their right of prosecution and commit to collaborating in the investigations.
4. All restrictions on media are lifted in Russia, Ukraine and EU.
5. A joint internet mourning site is set up for all victims of the war, to document the horrors of war in the spirit of reconciliation.
6. A commission of historians and scientists working on all controversial events of the past decades, such as MH 17, Skripal, etc. (List not complete!) An annual conference is to held, with open access to anyone interested. All governments commit to disclose relevant information. The objective is to allow for dissenting opinions while following an evidence- based approach.
7. An international political discussion forum, similar to talk shows, with automatic translations and video streaming is established. All countries commit to send high-rank officials and guarantee access to journalists.
8. All parties commit to intercultural dialogue. All travel restrictions are lifted, electronic visas for tourists should be issued on short notice.
9. A permanent commission involving peace countries can propose amendments to this treaty.

To be signed by: Russia, Ukraine, all NATO members, EU members, peace countries.

To reiterate: Given the state of western governments, I have no illusions that they are even faintly interested in implementing such a plan. Public discussion about a peaceful solution must start however.

Posted by b on September 13, 2022 at 09:16 UTC | Permalink

Comments

We should all be in favour of peace whilst recognising that war became nescessary because Russia felt threatened and found no one to recognize its greivance. But many here seems to have misunderstood the most important purpose of this ‘peace proposal’ and b’s post. It is not nescessary to agree with all the stated details because these are subject to negotiations, and the most important point is to focus on what are important points for each side. One can start by enumerating those.
For Russia
These were clearly stated in Putin’s address to NATO late last year and in defining the aims of the SMO.
For Ukraine
Simply put Ukraine desires to be able to choose how to align itself politically and economically and militarily.
To achieve both is impossible unless there is a formula to agree to mutual security not based on a military solution.
Sadly there is no current forum for achieving this at present and suggesting an informal grouping of ‘peace countries’ is not going to be effective.
However this is a good start but everyone must stop looking at this war in a macho way and start looking at how peace can be achieved.

Posted by: Orage | Sep 13 2022 12:26 utc | 101

This proposal, and some of the more absurd proposals made on social media, just now reminded me of how Keith Laumer’s Retief series would often mock the verbiage that came of the mouths of Terran diplomats.
https://lunastationquarterly.com/keith-laumers-retief-stories-why-i-will-never-be-able-to-stop-laughing/

Posted by: Babel-17 | Sep 13 2022 12:28 utc | 102

Before say April a peace plan consisting of
1)Demilitarization of Ukraine
2)Denazification of Ukraine
could have been possible. Now it will be capitulation. Capitulation will extend to Ukraine’s sponsors.
Working out the details of capitulation will not be pretty. There has never been a ghost of good faith from US and its minions. Current US plan is a war that never ends and continues long after Ukraine is lost. No one currently in power in US or in the anteroom of power will do anything other than continue war forever. They will only stop when they are crushed. Russia’s task is to crush the war party without ending the world. They are fighting a crew who will be pleased to end the world if they do not get everything they want.

Posted by: oldhippie | Sep 13 2022 12:29 utc | 103

II.2. and II.4 are mutually-exclusive.
Once you recognize the existence of something called the “Donbas Republics” you can’t later insist that the citizens of those Republics hold a referendum to decide whether they want to “become independent or remain part of Ukraine”.
No, sorry, you’ve already recognized that they are “not Ukraine” when you recognized that they were “Donbas Republics”.
That horse already bolted in II.2, so the phrasing of II.4 is absurd.
It could be fixed by rewording II.2 to call them the “Donbas Autonomous Regions”.
It could be fixed by rewording II.4 to make one of the options “or rejoin Ukraine”.
But sovereignty is like pregnancy: you either are or you are not, and the weasel words used in II.4 makes the II.2 “Donbas Republics” not-quite-pregnant with a two-year gestation period.
Manifestly. Absurd.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 13 2022 12:31 utc | 104

I wrote about the following 2-4 weeks ago in some other thread, would need to look it up but the pieces of the final US/NATO plan, as I see it, are falling together nicely now:
Step 1) attack Zap NPP and make it look like the Russians are doing it, keep it high in the news
Step 2) start some counteroffensive and make it look like the Allied Forces are collapsing and running for their lives: “Ukraine is winning, the Russians are fleeing!”
Step 3) start some final attack on the Zap NPP resulting in some radiation being set free
Step 4) turn on the Mighty Wurlitzer: “See, the Russians are loosing and fleeing and now have to resort to some extreme, scorched earth measures like bombing the Zap NPP, now we will have to bring in NATO in full force”
If any radiation is set free and maybe threatens any NATO countries in any way, then that might even trigger NATO’s Art. 5 directly (there was some talk about that by NATO some months ago already)…
As @78 put it in regard to using nukes but it also applies to using the Zap NPP as a nuke itself: “These peoples will always be hated by any future human civilisation. None of their existence will be allowed to perpetuate. They will be pulled out of their deepest bunkers and destroyed.”
Just my 2cents…

Posted by: Zet | Sep 13 2022 12:34 utc | 105

@106 – Could be.
Fascists are ready, with a smirk, to commit the most evil crimes imaginable as soon as they get a chance.

Posted by: moaobserver | Sep 13 2022 12:38 utc | 106

new hitler putin has to come to the table sooner or later so i agree why not now.
the bounty kept in trust hundreds of billions of russian seized assets should be shared amongst the freedom lovers in the city of london wall street vatican2 bis and world bank etc amongst all the friend of ukrainia and kept as normalcy in a kind of common wealth trust fund account kept safe like browns bottom tory blair the gold of uk corporation.
russia needs the west the gmo and vaccine technology to survive putin must grab the deal now and allow a full division of the spoils as per iraq,libya and serbia
rape and pillage balkanisation need not be negative here hare here
and what a gift for not just banker but all mankind

Posted by: gordon | Sep 13 2022 12:38 utc | 107

The only interesting thing about this proposal is that it was written and published. This would not have seen the light of day a month ago.
Posted by: Tom UK | 45
Even more interesting is that it is published on MoA!
B has been coy with us all this time about the long standing, historic, love-hate relationship between Germany and Russia. Clearly there were and still are German elites who want to find a way to get EU/Germany from under the thumb of US/UK, aka “The Anglo-Saxons” 🙂 These hoped that NS2 and BRI would do the trick (and likely welcomed Brexit). But they FUKUS’ed on NS2 and then Putin put them in an impossible position (c.f. the unceasing dumping of shit on Schroeder since the Stupid Military Operation).
Putin in fact, also, fucked Russias nominal allies – only India seems to be really benefiting from this situation.
So I’ll go out on a limb and say that B and MoA have always been an intelligence operation. An anti-American German intelligence faction, who is now worried that a cornered Russia is going to reach for tactical nukes and what will definitely follow that from the other side.

Posted by: GhostOfAdolf | Sep 13 2022 12:38 utc | 108

Ukraine can become EU member.

So basically a war breaks out in part due to a lack of sufficient ethnic homogeneity and the solution is to undermine the ethnic composition of EU countries some more with the inevitable and unending wave of mass migration from Ukraine that will go on for decades if not forever.
As always, Europe pays for the crimes of others.
Hopefully the new cold war is permanent so Europe’s neoliberal regimes get froze out by Russia and we finally end the current EU lineup to give the Easterners their own union and leave the West alone. If Ukraine joins the already straining ability to obtain satisfactory consensus will be further undermined. Does the EU have a deathwish? It just keeps trying to destroy itself.
Ukraine should be kept out of the EU and left as a buffer state and the US should be obliged to pay to build it up. But we know that won’t happen, whether they join the EU or not, Western Europe will be tasked with paying to build Ukraine back up.

Posted by: Altai | Sep 13 2022 12:39 utc | 109

Germany is spending billions to support collateral losses from its energy companies. I hear butterfly wings.
Russia is methodically showing the huge western bias of UN agencies and their uselessness in dealing with nuclear and biological security.
Russia wants to send grain to Africa and has many productive relationships with Central Asia.
The endgame is a multipolar world with a new financial order.

Posted by: financial matters | Sep 13 2022 12:40 utc | 110

I agree with b, this “treaty” is tremendously naive and attempts to backdoor some form of Russia guilt while ignoring nato completely.
And ignores the fact that two Minsk treaties were already signed and ignored.

Posted by: Meh | Sep 13 2022 12:40 utc | 111

Posted by: moaobserver | Sep 13 2022 12:38 utc | 107
Exactly, something like Butcha just 100 times more extreme…

Posted by: Zet | Sep 13 2022 12:41 utc | 112

Hmm, interesting that europeans (their elected governments) never ask for compensation to be paid for all the victims of Western wars, not even Saudi Arabian wars. How much should be paid for all of that? Trillions of dollars?
Some of this would be acceptable, but given the giant hypocrisy of western countries, this isn’t how it works in practise. In practise, this is just taking advantage of others while cloaking impure intentions (“humanitarian standards do not apply to me, so that i could take advantage of others”) behind humanitarian veil.

Posted by: Passer by | Sep 13 2022 12:41 utc | 113

This will never fly; It reminds me of Woodrow Wilson’s 14 points. Peace will come when one side wins militarily and the loser rolls over and accepts terms offered by the winning side. Both parties now have suffered too much to give up and make nice with one another. If Russia coheres politically and economically they will ratchet things up until they occupy the heart of Ukraine and what’s left of Ukraine begs for mercy. If not, then big changes in Russia, maybe breakup and its forces withdraw from Ukraine. It’s been obvious from the beginning that America and its satraps are hoping to eventuate this outcome in the hopes that Russia will become “virgin land”, ready to be disposed of at America’s whims. Then we win, the Chinese lose, and we fulfill the dream of the collective west for the last 2 centuries. Russia and its current leadership know this and understand they cannot allow this to come about. They and the Chinese understand that THEY could conceivably hold on and America’s internal contradictions and growing economic troubles will eventually cause America to lose its cohesion and fall apart. In the end, we and our straps have wet dreams about having a free hand to have our way with Russia’s resources if we can bring about collapse of Russia as an independent sovereign nation. They, on the other hand, have no need to dominate us; we really don’t have anything worth stealing. We think we have everything to gain and nothing to lose if we can win. Russia knows they have EVERYTHING TO LOSE if they can’t wrap this up and be free to pursue their own development free from decades of economic warfare, sanctions and subversion. Long term historical destiny suggests we are on the wrong side, but we still have immense strength and that is a real threat to the Russian Federation. and in the end to China.

Posted by: A. Pols | Sep 13 2022 12:44 utc | 114

I guess this is not from just anybody, as the host agreed to publish it, but maybe a German insider of some kind? Much or most of it will be unacceptable to the Russian side, but there are some interesting proposals, in particular the creation of a mediating force that should somehow be neutral: “Turkey, Portugal, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, India, China, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico.”
But that is utopian. There must be a command structure for such a force, and who will be on top of it?
The enforceability of this deal, or any deal, is impossible, I think. This war will play out to the end, preferably a NATO retreat, rather than a nuclear showdown.

Posted by: veto | Sep 13 2022 12:47 utc | 115

@Membrum Virile | Sep 13 2022 11:15 utc | 63

Correct, no Russian regular forces in Krakow.

That would have been big news, since Krakow is in Poland. But perhaps you meant Kharkov.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 13 2022 12:49 utc | 116

A nobel proposal indeed. But it steps around the reality as I see it unfolding, the primary motive of Russia being “regime change” not merely in Ukraine but for all blocks behind that and the stale post-WW2 “world ordering project” that grew out of control after the Cold War and the implosion of USSR. This peace treaty seems to ignore the strategic aim of the conflict: major shifts in the power of balance. Which means EU/NATO would ultimately not be equal partners anymore. Closer to irrelevant. And how else could it be? Any restoration of the situation like described here, while bringing peace to the citizens in the war zone, would still contain a major threat to Russia. The threat being the foreign policies of NATO and EU. The operations of MI-6 and CIA around the globe. The economical balances. Then again some version of this proposal might become more effective when a little more realism and less bravado kicks in with the “Atlantic” alliance.

Posted by: John Dowser | Sep 13 2022 12:49 utc | 117

PEACE is always my priority, but that word has so many meanings nowadays, it has, sadly, become meaningless. RATIONAL PEACEMAKERE must be an MI6 operative ‘taking the proverbial urine’ as we Brits say! Russia will never trust any future agreement/memorandum/treaty with the West ever again. Russia will dictate the terms for the ‘new Ukraine, built on its military victory when mission accomplished. As for the comments do far, these stand out:
The simple fact is that the West wants its hands on Russian wealth. Posted by: cdvision
The president Putin can immediately resign if Russia gets in position to accept such conditions. Better still, he can start a process of dividing Russia. Lived under US bombs
Whoever wrote that must be the last naive negotiator with blindfolds on in the West, probably some EU bureaucrat, if it is not a ruse. Roland
A high school term paper submitted by a dull student. JGarbo
The Russian won´t trust us anymore, the won´t even negotiate with these gangsters who betrayed them for centuries (floapp)

Posted by: Geraint ap Iorwerth | Sep 13 2022 12:49 utc | 118

Writing peace proposals for discussion is a good idea.
But this is not a peace proposal.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 13 2022 12:50 utc | 119

the US and NATO bear the primary responsibility for starting this war, and should pay compensation to the victims, including Russia. The US needs to close its military bases in other countries, support BRIC, and pay compensation to the victims of the regime change wars of the past 75 years. that’s a starting point.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Sep 13 2022 12:51 utc | 120

A windmill called “Peace”
‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾‾
Dead on arrival (DOA) due to at the very least:
· Minsk I and II failing.
· US/EU/NATO inability/unwillingness to honor agreements such as JCPOA (and many many more that were far more important than Ukraine when it comes to geopolitical stability and avoiding nuclear war).
· US/EU/NATO inability/unwillingness to conduct normal business.
· US/EU/NATO inability/unwillingness to allow free and open debate and conversation outside of tightly managed or corralled environments (of which this place is one in case people don’t get it; they can shut down this place at will at a moments notice).
· Overt nazi basis of “Ukraine” with heavy indoctrination which started before 2014.
· Continual worldwide US/EU/NATO aggression, belligerence, pressure, and manipulation, including disregard for or abuse of all founding UN principles.
This is not an unwanted war as far as the US, the EU, NATO, and “Ukraine”/”the Kiev regime” are concerned; they all want a bigger war which is one of the reasons why the RF chose to name and conduct the/a SMO (their own version of “police action”/”Right to Protect” war) rather than declare war on “Ukraine”.
Feel free to come back with a “peace” plan after these issues have been resolved in a positive and constructive manner. Until then I personally have so many other windmills to chase (or first build and then chase!) —or at the very least look at— that I won’t be paying any attention 🙂
And on a friendly note please do not base it on “reasonable people” since I doubt such a thing actually exists outside of positive bias (we’re all human after all).

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Sep 13 2022 12:54 utc | 121

Best and quickest way to peace will be:
1) Abolish NATO
2) US/UK/EU stop shipping weapons and ca$h to the Kiev regime.
3) Zelensky and his tv production gang to be prosecuted.
4) Lift all economic sanctions against Russia.

Posted by: Hannibal | Sep 13 2022 12:56 utc | 122

There is one glaring example of BS on that proposal:
“Such a peace will need international mediation. Since organizations such as the UN and OSCE are western-dominated, a balanced choice of countries has to be made which have kept a neutral status and no interest in continuing the war. Examples, not complete: Turkey, Portugal, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, […]”
Switzerland abandoned a centuries long tradition of neutrality to jump on the sanctions wagon.

Posted by: Galahad | Sep 13 2022 12:56 utc | 123

Foolish waste of time. Best peace proposal is unconditional Ukrainian surrender.

Posted by: Zed | Sep 13 2022 12:57 utc | 124

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 13 2022 12:49 utc | 117
“That would have been big news, since Krakow is in Poland. But perhaps you meant Kharkov.”
Ahem, that was exactly my point.
it was Bjørn Holmgaard at Sep 13 2022 10:59 utc | 55
who gave us the big news about no Russian troops in Krakow.

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 13 2022 12:58 utc | 125

Russia needs to escalate. They have escalation dominance… the question is russian society ready for it

Posted by: John | Sep 13 2022 12:58 utc | 126

The U.S. elite MUST be completely brought to heel. They must be brought to justice as the criminals they are. Nothing less will do.

Posted by: donten | Sep 13 2022 13:00 utc | 127

Could this be the Italian peace plan? There are a couple of points that undermine the very framework of the proposition, so as such it is a non-starter. It also fails to address Russian security concerns and undermines the military objectives which are non-negotiable — as many have noted, even in terms of domestic Russian politics, treating such a proposition seriously would amount to political suicide, while in Ukraine, actual “suicide.” Even the people of Europe, for sure, wouldn’t like the “peace” that would ensue as a result.
One could presumably use it as a starting point for re-establishing functional relations between EU & Russia, with everything tangential to the Ukraine crisis sidelined in negotiations with the status of TBD. Start with those proposals that establish mutually respectful relations with Russia and work towards peace from that format. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that you’re in any position to make demands or that your interpretation of events deserves to be treated seriously — understand that Europe has squandered that right and would need to work very hard to reach a status where its concerns in regards to Russia are given any serious consideration.

Posted by: Skiffer | Sep 13 2022 13:01 utc | 128

I don’t know how one could think Russia could conclude such an agreement with parties who have blatantly demonstrated a willingness to violate nearly all prior agreements or commitments to date.
This is a non starter. Russia needs reduce Ukraine to a few Oblasts centred on Kiev.

Posted by: Cato the Uncensored | Sep 13 2022 13:02 utc | 129

General Hodges has explained since May that the Russians would reach the “culmination point” by early September and Ukraine would begin their counteroffensive to regain lost territory. Consistent message.

Posted by: d0ng | Sep 13 2022 13:02 utc | 130

The tone is nearly bombastic. OK,almost grandiose. The responses here overwhelming show much more understanding of this world-sized event and, acutely, the flaws of this “plan”.
Comically rational even as it mistakes so much. Take a Neo-Nazi to lunch and reason this thing out?
Good intentions, I guess. And any talk of resolution and peace deserves a good looking into.

Posted by: Elmagnostic | Sep 13 2022 13:03 utc | 131

Russia just defeated the bulk of the Western-backed army in Ukraine by drawing them into two traps and setting their air force on their exposed columns (the Ukrainian army was defeated long ago). There will be no second Western-created army, there is neither the time nor the will to do that before Western economies collapse. I.e. it’s over, Russia won.
Russia will now take the rest of Donetsk over the next few weeks/months and then set up a DMZ-like defense, watching while Europe freezes in the dark.
We’ll have a Korea-like freeze of hostilities with no peace since Russia doesn’t trust anyone in the West to live up to any agreement.
Maybe, just maybe, Russia will turn the gas back on at some point but will at the least want NATO out of Eastern Europe.

Posted by: Tom | Sep 13 2022 13:04 utc | 132

@pretzelattack | Sep 13 2022 12:51 utc | 121

the US and NATO bear the primary responsibility for starting this war, and should pay compensation to the victims, including Russia. The US needs to close its military bases in other countries, support BRIC, and pay compensation to the victims of the regime change wars of the past 75 years. that’s a starting point.

Indeed, peace in Europe is achieved only if all US bases in Europe are closed. Just leave.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 13 2022 13:06 utc | 133

Just so, @121 pretzelattack
What the Russian Federation always wanted was a resolution in the Donbass was similar to South Ossetia/Abkhazia, after yet another glorious exhibition in distorting the concept of democracy in Georgia (Rose Revolution).
Wh9ch the nefarious westerners succeeded in, installing the then president tie-munching Micheal Saakashvili who gloriously tried to inflict NATO/western values via force.
And got told, even though the Russian Federation Forces were in a parlous state, thanks to Mr. Yeltsin, who was a drunken fool, who, like Raisi-dominated Gorbachev, was the most naive leaders of Russia.

Posted by: Ant. | Sep 13 2022 13:07 utc | 134

This is a terrible proposal by a Western European with little grasp on either reality or “mutual dis-satisfication” as a basis for fair compromise.
Let’s start with the list of so-called “neutral” countries: Austria and Switzerland have been anything but neutral. Austria talked about being against sanctions on Russian energy, but made no effort remotely comparable to Hungary. Or in other words, all talk. Switzerland – a supposedly neutral country – adopted full EU sanctions.
The entire list reads like a wish list of Ukrainians:
Russia is at fault, Russia must pay.
No mention of Western reparations for confiscation of CBR reserves or for supplying arms used to kill LDPR civilians.
No mention of Western admission of fault for failure to enforce Minsk II. etc etc.
No mention of broken promises not the expand NATO, or to rollback the NATO expansion into Finland and Sweden.
A non starter, as American diplomats have said.

Posted by: c1ue | Sep 13 2022 13:09 utc | 135

@Membrum Virile | Sep 13 2022 12:58 utc | 126
Granted!

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 13 2022 13:09 utc | 136

Totally delusional. This proposed ‘peace agreement’ STILL does not address one of the main reasons for Russia’s incursion into ukraine —– ie; Nato’s nonstop and continual encroachment of Russia’s borders

Posted by: Karl | Sep 13 2022 13:09 utc | 137

The peace proposal B. Posted is a non-starter in so many aspects. Worth repeating this comment;,
…..the US and NATO bear the primary responsibility for starting this war, and should pay compensation to the victims, including Russia. The US needs to close its military bases in other countries, support BRIC, and pay compensation to the victims of the regime change wars of the past 75 years. that’s a starting point.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Sep 13 2022 12:51 utc | 121…..
Hear Hear – plus let’s make clear that NATO Generals as well as NATO civilian officials should be tried for war crimes committed over the last 30 years.

Posted by: Exile | Sep 13 2022 13:12 utc | 138

Russia’s December 2021 proposal looks fair and appropriate in light of unrelenting NATO aggression over 30 years.
In order for NATO to restore trust in itself as agreement capable, look forward to NATO taking steps proactively to implement their obligations in full prior to any further discussion.

Posted by: dfg | Sep 13 2022 13:15 utc | 139

No. Any peace that leaves NATO in a dominant position cannot be a lasting one. The West must be completely crushed, economically, militarily, and culturally, or there can be no peace. Not only for Russia, but for China, Iran, Palestine, and the entire global south that is continually exploited and raped by western white supremacists.

Posted by: FVK | Sep 13 2022 13:21 utc | 140

Since the war is partly caused by NATO moving East and lying about promises made, I don’t feel there is sufficient trust to implement such a deal. And no mention of USA? They must be included as they are a major influence, weapons supplier, and intelligence sharer. No, generally I don’t believe anyone is ready to sign this agreement.

Posted by: Spirasol | Sep 13 2022 13:23 utc | 141

The real proposal for peace would have to center on the relation between the EU and Russia, because this is the issue that has really changed dramatically since the war began, and will never be again as it was before. Any kind of cooperation with Russia is off the EU’s table now, while the relation was a mixed bag before, consisting in economic sanctions accompanied by cooperation for instance in the cultural and academic world and tourism, and of course the gas and oil pipelines.
So this has changed drastically, and one would expect such a proposal, as it obviously comes from somewhere inside the EU, would deal with that. From what I get from Putin’s speeches, Russia’s leadership is well aware that it is now at war with NATO and so it seeks to hit NATO in its weakest link, and that is the EU. And how can Russia damage the EU most optimally? By prolonging the war, as the EU is absolutely unable to compensate for economic damage due to the lost cooperation with Russia, and cannot resume cooperation with Russia either, as long as this war goes on. When the other side shows some activity, as we see it now, prolongation of the war becomes even easier, and so, to some extent, there might be some interest on the Russian side in the Ukies defending themselves, in weapon deliveries to Ukraine from EU countries, in EU politicians giving promises to Zelensky and so on.
This weak EU will sooner or later become NATO’s (i.e. the USA’s) biggest problem. EU leaders seem to operate, or should I say sleepwalk, on the illusion (one of many) that a “blitzkrieg” victory is possible for the Ukranians. But this will not happen and they have no plan B – they don’t need one, as they know that they will not stay in office anyway. If I am right, then the main result of this war will be the complete breakdown of the EU.
I am also wondering what kind of game the UK has been playing. Is the UK’s relation to the EU still cooperative, or is it rather hostile? And what does that mean for this war, especially as every other week representatives from the UK and from EU countries come to Kiev? I very much doubt that the NATO countries’ leaders talking to Kiev speak with one voice. So who, after all, would be Russia’s partner for such peace negotiations?
It seems to me that, in a very sinister way, Russia and the UK conspire in their interest to weaken the EU. If, at the end of this war, the Ukraine wishes to enter the EU, EU officials will hardly be able to argue against it, as the Ukraine may not look much different from most EU countries in terms of economic strength, welfare, democracy etc.

Posted by: Ralf | Sep 13 2022 13:24 utc | 142

A peaceful solution cannot be found until both parties get themselves around a table and begin discussions, this is unlikely to happen, as Zelensky in my opinion isn’t in control of the situation on his side, the US and the UK and the recent speech by Scholz of Germany, tells me that these three countries are prepared to keep the hostilities going for as long as it takes.
The arms companies will also not want the hostilities to end they are making an absolute fortune out of this conflict, and no doubt some politicians and middlemen are making a tidy sum out of it as well.
If some sort of compromise cannot be found in the future, there is the real possibility that this conflict could escalate, surely the world’s interests come before those of the US, the UK and Germany.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 13 2022 13:26 utc | 143

I don’t doubt your source’s good intentions. I do, however, see clearly that the authors are not neutral. This is fatal for any peace initiative in this form.
One example will be enough: Crimea is legally part of Russia. The Donbass Republics are independent. Legally they don’t need further recognition. This is not a peace incentive; it is an insult.
Regarding the other proposals, it needs to be remembered that even agreements supported by the UNSC are routinely ignored by the “peace countries.” If the authors don’t remember MINSK, perhaps they will recall the JCPOA and the EU countries’ lack of adherence to their own undertakings.
I want peace as well, but these proposals, even in discussion document form, are absurd in the extreme.

Posted by: EvN | Sep 13 2022 13:28 utc | 144

First, I thank the author of the proposal for his/her efforts to develop a peaceful solution to the war. Like many others, I feel the war is tragic for Ukraine, as it is no more than a US puppet. And it is very sad for Russia, for the many soldiers dying or wounded in the conflict.
Second, I agree with John Mearsheimer that this war is best understood as a Great Powers struggle in which the US is contending against Russia (and ultimately against China and the EU) to maintain unipolar US domination of the world. The Wolfowitz Doctrine laid out this US goal back in 1992, not long after the break-up of the USSR.
If I am correct, then there will be no possibility for a lasting peace agreement between Ukraine and Russia, because the the current war is only a local battle in the larger global power struggle. If Russia understands the war in the same way, it will know that no peace agreement can be made with Ukraine, but only directly with the US. And the US, going back decades, has not adhered to its treaties and other agreements. It has become a bad-faith client, which makes negotiations almost impossible (unless there is an external mechanism for enforcement).
So, I would like to see the war end quickly, but I am not optimistic. Thanks also to b for all his work hosting and maintaining MoA!

Posted by: Duane M | Sep 13 2022 13:29 utc | 145

What law did Russia break in 2022?
Afaik Russia did everything after “the book”🤷‍♂️
And why no denazification b?

Posted by: Per/Norway | Sep 13 2022 13:30 utc | 146

Lets just start by forgetting any of this waffle. It will not succeed. I can take issue with at least 50% of these proposals.
Better to let Russia complete the operation even if she has to escalate.

Posted by: Bluedog57 | Sep 13 2022 13:31 utc | 147

Oops… mistakenly hit the key prior to establishing my case…
Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ02MlVRcMA
Mikael Saaskivili munches his tie, after realizing invading break-away Georgian republics South Ossetia/Abkhazia was a seriously bad idea. Triggered Russians, who had had enough.
Darling western hero Sasskivili, despite piously claiming he was Georgian, and never would be anything else, accepted Ukrainian citizenship, and was parachuted into governership of the Odessa oblast under Porky Poroschehko’s presidency.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/07/mikheil-saakashvili-quits-as-governor-of-ukraines-odessa-region (careful, it’s the British Guardian)
And, weirdly, went back to Georgia, where he was wanted for corruption/fraud, and was promptly arrested as soon as he landed… did he think he was a Clinton, or Biden?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58767420
So, I think the Russian Federation always wanted a similar resolution under the Minsk 2 accords, to emulate what happened in Georgia. No-one in the western world had the sense to agree… so here we are.

Posted by: Ant. | Sep 13 2022 13:33 utc | 148

Why is the US role in provoking this conflict omitted?
What about “Fuck the EU” Nudelman? The deaths on the Maidan intended to provoke the collapse of a government elected by democratic process overseen by neutral 3rd party monitors?
The years of US, UK, France and Canada covert military build up to bring the UAF to NATO standards?
The repeated escalation by flooding the theatre with ever more advanced weapons of greater accuracy and range?
The compensation for the loss of life and property inflicted prior to the SMO and to which the SMO was the response?
The failure of the West to honour commitments made at the time of German re-unification?
Who will pay the reparations for the death and destruction caused by Western solipsism, intransigence, and militarism?
Who will pay the costs of a NATO intervention in a non-NATO country that terminated the peace negotiation hosted by Turkey in February 2022?
Who pays compensation to the citizens of the West pauperised by the insane sanctions policies of their governments? Who pays compensation for the de-indistialization of Europe in response to US policy objectives in 404?
How will any agreement over 404 inhibit the US in its declared intent to enter a military confrontation with China?
How will this agreement in any way impede the US in its global militarism and regime change operations? Is not the present conflict the direct outcome of exactly these US policies?
The author of this proposal is a brain dead incompetent.
The solution to this conflict comes from a return to a multi-polar world order and the termination of US privilege in the form of the world reserve currency.
The US has repeatedly declared itself to be the indispensable nation.
The implication of this declaration is that all other nations of the world are dispensable and subject to the whims of the US.
This is the crux, the fundamental issue of which 404 is just the latest sore pimple.

Posted by: Sushi | Sep 13 2022 13:34 utc | 149

The plan is sheer fantasy. It simply does not understand why Russia invaded Ukraine in the first place. For Russia, not to restore a culturally allied and politically friendly Ukraine is signing its death warrant. Anyone with a historically thinking brain understands that. Churchill, in his famous September 1, 1939 speech (“Russia – puzzle – mystery – enigma”) said as much. From a Russian geopolitical point of view, Ukraine cannot exist as an actor of a hostile, anti-Russian alliance.
Unfortunately, if the West does not understand Russia’s position, the current Kremlin leadership, for its part, does not grasp that it is in a real war, thinking it can avoid a larger clash with the West by pulling punches and playing nice. I mean these guys are ridiculous in their timid approach to the war – I agree with Girkin. Not only they don’t bomb the hell out of the “nazi” regime’s palaces and take out some of the SBU head honchos in special ops, they are so humourless they even allow the leading western political cretins to travel to Kiev with a guaranteed first-class return ticket on a Ukrainian railway. I am not saying “kill them”. I am saying bomb out the rail lines to the West making it more of a challenge for them to get around in Greater Russia (as everyone understood Ukraine before 1991). Ridiculous ! The Russian ineptitude is breath-taking. They take Izyum and then defend it with two thousand Wagners against nobody. And when the AFR gets the wind of the Ukies assembling an attack force, they give up the most important strategic points for the encirclement of the Ukie Donbass brigades without a fight and they proudly announce the withdrawal from Izyum, Balaklea, and Kupyansk was orderly and went as planned. Lord! Did you see the video of Ukrainian soldiers in Kupyansk under the huge billboards saying “We are with Russia – one people” ? As someone said, you can’t cure stupid!.

Posted by: Soloview | Sep 13 2022 13:35 utc | 150

There is no point in anyone publishing proposals for a peace settlement on the Ukraine. Russia will have already written out their terms, and will possibly amend them as required when the time comes to put them forward (but not for negotiation).
This proposed plan is in so many ways so much of a non-starter that it is not worth discussion.

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Sep 13 2022 13:36 utc | 151

@Sushi | Sep 13 2022 13:34 utc | 148
Well said. Maybe Nudelman is the author. /s

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 13 2022 13:36 utc | 152

The US initiated the conflict and has no off ramp other than a general collapse of its system of federal , central government, similar to the fall of the USSR
The US is deal incapable as are the petty satrapies under its hegemony
It would extremely difficult to find any legal treaty that the US has honoured in its entire history

Posted by: Chakosh | Sep 13 2022 13:37 utc | 153

Sadly, b, this peace proposal is somewhat rational, although I agree Russia’s concessions in this document are a bit much.
As such, it does not match the tenor of the current trend of escalation.
I am afraid the nukes will fly.
Perhaps the only hope is that another example of man’s inhumanity will be enough to stop us all from going full response.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Sep 13 2022 13:40 utc | 154

The “peace proposal” stated above is a mere provocation, aimed at emotions.
Using “right reason,” one can see that there are only 3 possibilities, all dependent upon the West.
1) The West increases its military support, including direct conflict using NATO forces.
2) The West continues its military support at the same rate. Possible, but would require intense training of whatever remains of Ukrainian manpower.
3) The West decreases its military support for any of several reasons, including diminished supply of usable weapons, lack of time to train large numbers of Ukrainian forces on NATO weapons, and diminished numbers of Ukrainians who are actually capable of being trained and fighting.
Russia is prepared for all 3 of these possibilities, and has no reason to back down. Peace lies in the hands of the West, as it has since long before the SMO.

Posted by: Ciaran | Sep 13 2022 13:44 utc | 155

Only a fool would believe that Russia will agree to those terms, when they have the ability to send Ukraine back to the Stone Age, and probably will

Posted by: Gerard Pereira | Sep 13 2022 13:44 utc | 156

Sure USA has an off ramp.
Quietly, behind the scenes, put the worst neocons under house arrest.
Announce, “mistakes were made”, and highlight that a rogue gang of neocons wanted to subvert the Constitution of the US by seeking nuclear war by blackmailing congressmen and POTUS; i.e. treason.
USA begins new era of internal reform and development, international cooperation in space exploration, etc. Call it “patriotic capitalism” or something.
The population will be happy to support whatever positive message the media puts out.
The problem there as I see it is that no-one wants to do this now, as it seems the neocons are “winning”. That should change.
Also, most of the congressmen are extreme ideologues or outright sociopaths. But the greedy will follow the money.

Posted by: moaobserver | Sep 13 2022 13:46 utc | 157

What a load of tosh!
Sometimes you just need to let a fight run its course. To do anything else will just make the problem fester and rear its ugly head another day.
To the EU tard that coughed up this horse manure – you’re in this situation because of what you’ve done. You’ve picked your side and you’ve bet the farm on it. You’ve made your bed.
Best case scenario for the west is when there’s no more Ukraine, a wholesale change of leadership and walk back all sanctions and may be Russia will act like it never happened. But I doubt it. Russians may forgive, but they don’t forget.
I forgot who said it but the west needs to be reminded to not fuck with Russia every 50 or so years…

Posted by: A.L. | Sep 13 2022 13:46 utc | 158

I see reality is slowly settling in…but it is too late. Russia will lose it all, including Crimea. At least they will get rid of Putin. By hanging, I hope. .

Posted by: Pobeda | Sep 13 2022 13:49 utc | 159

NemesisCalling | Sep 13 2022 13:40 utc | 153
“I am afraid the nukes will fly.
Perhaps the only hope is that another example of man’s inhumanity will be enough to stop us all from going full response.”
We shall see, and hope that God’s plan is toward the latter.
I do believe that God is taking up the sword against the Antichrist and his regime, the Babylon/Sodom and Gomorrah of the empire and its minions, and has chosen Russia to be his sword, as in the past he has chosen the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Romans.
God won’t compel the Russians to accept this role, however. It’s up to them to choose whether to fight toward the victory of Armageddon or to surrender and be engulfed prior to this victory, which then would transpire a different way.

Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Sep 13 2022 13:49 utc | 160

It seems to me that the UAF sustain very large losses and that their latest “attack” was partly motivated by a feeling of desperation. Maybe we should wait for a week or 10 days and see what develops.

Posted by: Question Mark | Sep 13 2022 13:51 utc | 161

Is this peace proposal written by a child? 😂😂😂

Posted by: C. L. Tong | Sep 13 2022 13:51 utc | 162

NemesisCalling | Sep 13 2022 13:40 utc | 153
“I am afraid the nukes will fly.”
No, they won’t. So please stop soiling your pants.

Posted by: Scotch Bingeington | Sep 13 2022 13:53 utc | 163

I’d hate to see his anti-Russian proposal.
Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Sep 13 2022 10:15 utc | 28
LOL!
c’mon, man. yanno, the “peace countries”

Posted by: sln2002 | Sep 13 2022 13:53 utc | 164

@153;
So the resident Neo-Nazi imagines only a fiery Gotterdämmerung. Predictable. What an inspiring ideology. Share a few YT links of Bruckner performances while you’re at it.

Posted by: moaobserver | Sep 13 2022 13:55 utc | 165

america will do with any signed documents like what they always do: wipe their butts. america is taking the world hostage because they are in every moment showing how they are crazier than anybody else, and don’t care about any level of human suffering, pain and destruction. everybody knows the term intervention from psychology. you know, some member of the family is on the path of destruction and whole family is gathering around him to get an intervention. that’s what the world needs now regarding america. britain as well.

Posted by: denazi | Sep 13 2022 13:55 utc | 166

That proposal puts Ukraine on equal grounds as the Russian Federation, this does not reflect the reality. In my option the terms should be very simple.
1. Donetsk and Luhansk are recognized as independent.
2. Zaporizhzhia is forfeited to the Russian Federation or granted independence.
3. The majority or the Kherson Oblast is returned to Ukraine, with the exception of a corridor connecting Crimea to Zaporizhzhia.
4. Ukraine declares itself neutral and agrees to no missiles or foreign troops on it’s soil.
Russia sought a reasonable diplomatic solution to the Ukraine issue. Since they have now spent blood and treasure, and unquestionably have the upperhand, any resolution of the conflict should heavily favor them.

Posted by: Flair1239 | Sep 13 2022 13:57 utc | 167

Having read the posts up to this point, I can only add a piece of advice which is to do a serious study of Douglas Reed’s “The Controversy of Zion”. You will then understand what is controlling the collective West and why the UK and US are incapable of walking anything back without first cleansing themselves of evil. Repent, repent now.

Posted by: Richard | Sep 13 2022 13:58 utc | 168

@153
We can only hope that Russia lets the nukes fly, and leaves Europe (especially the UK) as a radioactive crater. The world will cheer.

Posted by: FVK | Sep 13 2022 14:00 utc | 169

This is a terrible, utterly pro-USA/NATO treaty that should be tossed in the rubbish bin. Without a doubt Russia and the ethnic Russians of Ukraine are the victims in this wretched neo-con conflict. Russia should keep fighting and take back what is rightfully theirs. I don’t know why they are playing with kid gloves. Time to take the gloves off Russia and kick some Ukro-nazi ass and finish this once and for all.

Posted by: Deschutes | Sep 13 2022 14:01 utc | 170

I can’t stop laughing.
Needs moar parallel, longitudinal.

Posted by: sln2002 | Sep 13 2022 14:09 utc | 171

It has been long known that the regime of Kiev ignored the Minsk agreements. Or rather they might’ve upheld the illusion that they “might” one day abide by it but that was never the plan. The reason for this was to buy time for Nato to train and equip their army for, in their view, an inevitable war. France and Germany, the main guarantors never enforced this issue. Why not?
If Ukraine was a truly sovereign state, they most definitely would have agreed to the agreement which allowed them keep eastern regions under their control on the condition – just don’t try to genocide different ethnic groups. That tells you all you need to know, really.

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 13 2022 14:11 utc | 172

“Es wäre besser er hätte befohlen mich zu erschiessen. Dann ginge dieser ~~Kelch~~ Post an mir vorüber.”
@ b.
What a surprising post
After a few month with
Full Metal Jacket
Now on my screen
Eyes Wide Shut
And soon ?
~~Dr. Strangelove or~~ RationalPeacekeeper : How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

“This Plan ‘R’ was intended as, shall we say, a kind of…. safety valve” – “safety valve?” – “Well, I must admit, the human element obviously failed here. But the way it was intended was that this would take away any hope the Russians had of wiping out Washington…”

Posted by: La Bastille | Sep 13 2022 14:16 utc | 173

There’s been a lot of debate about the actual war situation; whether Russia is spent, or adroitly executing the SMO, etc.
The next few weeks will tell a big story, and will likely very significantly define the possibility and framework of any negotiations.
But that is actually only a minor aspect of the full story.
As others have noted, this is a war to decide if U.S. Empire rules the world, or we have multi-polar self-determination. That’s what this is all about. Russia, China, Iran, the Global South, all know it full-well.
This peace proposal doesn’t acknowledge this fact, and is therefore irrelevant to the actual situation at hand.
For actual peace to happen, the Global Predators – including the U.S. NeoCons and their cousins in the U.K. – need to visibly, expensively, dramatically and decisively fail.
The best way to achieve peace is to insure that the NeoCons et. al. are absolutely and unequivocally blamed and held accountable for the disasters they continue to visit upon the planet.

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Sep 13 2022 14:16 utc | 174

There likely won’t be any peace, because America is not interested in peace–except the peace of the grave.
Some people have said that in the Ukraine War, America will fight to the last Ukrainian.
While that is certainly true, that also may be changing.
This article below is explosive in its assertions, as it suggests that America has deployed its troops in Ukraine on the frontlines against Russia–albeit “unofficially.”
If true, the Ukraine War is no longer a proxy war between Russia and America. It is a direct hot war in all but name. Too bad the American Free Press won’t bothering reporting a minor little issue like this that could spark a nuclear confrontation.
America is playing with fire–nuclear fire.
And the Americans are going to learn the hard way that, if you play with fire, don’t cry and whine when you get burned alive:
“Over the course of the past several weeks we have learned the following:
* US intelligence operatives and special forces have been deployed in Ukraine throughout the ongoing war.
* These US troops are directly involved in attacking Russian targets.
* US-provided intelligence of various types, combined with US “hands-on” training and (almost certainly) even direct operation of US advanced weaponry, has resulted in: the killing of Russian field commanders; (likely, but not certainly) the sinking of the Moskva; the terrorist-style attacks on Russian cities; recent attacks on Russian ammo depots.
To emphasize: US military personnel are directly involved in battlefield strikes against Russian forces and terrorist strikes against Russian civilians.
There are rampant reports swirling on various Telegram channels that US personnel are actually operating the 12 HIMARS mobile rocket systems recently entered into the battlefield.
However you measure it, the indisputable fact remains that the hard power of the United States is being directly applied against Russians in a war – and that is something that has profound potential consequences – the flapping of butterfly wings that could very likely spawn hurricanes in their wake.
The leaders of the United States are, quite literally, playing with fire.”
Playing With Fire
https://imetatronink.substack.com/p/playing-with-firehtml

Posted by: ak74 | Sep 13 2022 14:17 utc | 175

Posted by: Unnamed | Sep 13 2022 12:12 utc | 90
.
Which source?
I’m almost assuming that (b) just wanted to post a thread or something to discuss in the block since there is NOTHING new on the front line!
In short…. employing people here we say “stick to it”
I think the nonsense, including the source, may have been invented by himself!
In the meantime, the success stories on Western TV are spreading
Ukraine wins, Ukraine defeats Russia, Russians flee, Russians leave equipment, etc.
Even reports that the stock market is booming…because the Russians are losing…
Russians are returning to Russia…
Only from the Kremlin…..there is NOTHING at all on the subject…
Not even Tass takes a position on it!
.So I think that the document is fictitious, because self (b) is at a loss!

Posted by: Mo3 | Sep 13 2022 14:18 utc | 176

possibly Truth & Reconciliation hearings, organized by “neutral countries” d/b/a Third World nation-states who resisted de blinken first and second order sanctions regimes. IOW, governments in deep, deep external debt to World Bank lenders. How deep? one may ask? Gonna need a study of a study to sort primary deficit from Varoufakis perennial bonds. Could take years, probably decades or weeks.

Posted by: sln2002 | Sep 13 2022 14:18 utc | 177

A Peace Proposal For Ukraine
Is this Peace Proposal supposed to work for
Ukrainian too?
Russia and Russian too?
Most of EU populace?
Many of plundered Nations
Und so weiter….

Posted by: La Bastille | Sep 13 2022 14:21 utc | 178

“… but have to cede a part of their sovereignty to an international administration run by the peace countries”
I just LOLed and stopped reading at this point. Should have stopped reading earlier but I would have missed the humor.
Odessa, Mykolaiv, Kherson, Dnipropertrovsk, Crimea, Zaporizhzhia Donetsk, Luhansk, Kharkov, Summy(?) is what for breakfast.
I know, negotitations got to start somewhere. But that somewhere has to be reality.

Posted by: JaimeInTexas | Sep 13 2022 14:23 utc | 179

Lots of posters saying that any negotiation is pointless and the conflict does not really end until NATO is gone.
While they are correct, I cannot see any path forward where Russia defeats NATO alone. Russia may succeed in peeling off a few members of NATO, but even that is unlikely.
So buckle up, it is going to be a long ride. (Unless it is all part of the Great Reset Kabuki Show).

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Sep 13 2022 14:24 utc | 180

The best way to achieve peace is to insure that the NeoCons et. al. are absolutely and unequivocally blamed and held accountable for the disasters they continue to visit upon the planet.
Tom Pfotzer | Sep 13 2022 14:16 utc | 173

Thanks Tom

Posted by: La Bastille | Sep 13 2022 14:24 utc | 181

Well, b, looks like the nays have it!
No dopamine from around here for our anonymous peacenik.

Posted by: john | Sep 13 2022 14:25 utc | 182

Its great to talk about peace, but this is an existential fight. Russia may be ready for peace by the Empire of Lies is not, and is rejuvenated by their success in Kharkiv.
NATO and the neocons have been preparing for Ukraine for at least a decade, and it seems to me that they have done a pretty good job and the war itself is going better than they had planned. It is a mistake, perhaps a fatal one, for Russia to count the bodies assuming that the Ukies will run out. THEY WILL NOT – the bodies will be replaced with Polish and English speaking “mercenaries”. Ukraine will not run out of money – the West will print whatever is needed. The Ukies will not run out of ammo, or Himars. Did you fall for what the West said about sending “a dozen HIMARS” to Ukraine? Wake up – they sent a *lot* more than a dozen. Things are *just* starting to warm up – NATO has let Russia do its thing for six months, use up its stock of high tech missiles, and exhaust itself again the very successful Ukrainian fixed positions in the Donbass. Time will tell if Russia has ramped up their production in sufficient quantities to sustain a the greater tempo of expenditure which will be necesary if NATO goes “all in” which seems to be the case now.
Russia stretched itself too thin with the SMO and has not provided the troops it needs to get the job done, at least not if NATO can run operations like they did in Kharkiv after the Kherson faint (Russia probably does NOT need mobilization, but it certainly needs more troops that it has now), as Dima points out the relatively low number of Russian battle groups per mile of front line leaves weak points that will take huge losses should the NATO forces concentrate there attack there.
It is sobering that Russell Bentley is so pessamistic right now. I really wonder about Putin some times – does he REALLY have independent agency?
These two weeks, IMHO are going to show how all of this will play out. I hope Dima’s assessment that by blocking train traffic NATO/Ukie mobilization is impacted ends up true – by not being able to concentrate higher numbers, the lower density of Russian troops is able to withstand the NATO/Ukie offensives that are obviously in the works…
I just hope that Russia has more depth that they have shown to date. Its like they can’t sustain a greater intensity of battle (e.g. – wipe out ALL rail in western Ukraine with their airforce/missiles etc)

Posted by: Simplicius | Sep 13 2022 14:27 utc | 183

in person, in Vanuatua, 0.9 metres (3 feet) above sea level

Posted by: sln2002 | Sep 13 2022 14:28 utc | 184

One more very Rational Peacekeeper Plan ?

In the spring of 1868 a conference was held at Fort Laramie, in present day Wyoming, that resulted in a treaty with the Sioux. This treaty was to bring peace between the whites and the Sioux who agreed to settle within the Black Hills reservation in the Dakota Territory.
The Black Hills of Dakota are sacred to the Sioux Indians. In the 1868 treaty, signed at Fort Laramie and other military posts in Sioux country, the United States recognized the Black Hills as part of the Great Sioux Reservation, set aside for exclusive use by the Sioux people. In 1874, however, General George A. Custer led an expedition into the Black Hills accompanied by miners who were seeking gold. Once gold was found in the Black Hills, miners were soon moving into the Sioux hunting grounds and demanding protection from the United States Army. Soon, the Army was ordered to move against wandering bands of Sioux hunting on the range in accordance with their treaty rights. In 1876, Custer, leading an army detachment, encountered the encampment of Sioux and Cheyenne at the Little Bighorn River. Custer’s detachment was annihilated, but the United States would continue its battle against the Sioux in the Black Hills until the government confiscated the land in 1877.b> To this day, ownership of the Black Hills remains the subject of a legal dispute between the U.S. government and the Sioux.

Posted by: La Bastille | Sep 13 2022 14:33 utc | 185

Ukraine just posted a picture of the Iranian loitering drone saying it was Rebranded with a new name
Russia followed with a post about detaining a guy (quality control at a Russian defense contractor) for sharing a picture of a fragment of a drawing of details._.
It seems like a troll job, Russia set up a factory perhaps? Or no drones and they found a mole?
The reinforcments Russia brought in was a lot of trucks hauling artillery from the 50’s and not much else. If they brought truckloads of those drones once the ukies armor got out in the open, it would have been a disaster.

Posted by: OhhCanada | Sep 13 2022 14:34 utc | 186

Problems
1) About “peace countries”:
– Switzerland is NOT neutral in this conflict because it has agreed to participate in the economic war waged by “the West” against Russia under the name of “sanctions”.
– All EC members are in the same situation, including Hungary, which only opposes some of them because its economy cannot bear them.
– No “white NATO” country will accept to be policed by a non-white AND Christian country. Even less the Ukrainians who are obsessed with Nazism and their so-called “pure race”.
2) About the treaties:
– For 250 years, the US and its allies have never stuck to any treaty longer than the time it takes to regroup, rearm, reorganize and attack. Why do you think this one might be different?
– The USA has not even recognized the Sea Treaty or the jurisdiction of the Hague?
3) About judges:
Where can you find judges who cannot be corrupted by the force or wealth of the West, by the money they appropriate, by the economies they have stolen from around the world, by the governments they overthrow, by the bombs they dliberally drop all around the world?

Posted by: John V. Doe | Sep 13 2022 14:34 utc | 187

This peace proposal is a joke but I am not laughing
This is a civilization war about who runs the global financial punch bowl and this peace proposal is from another planet talking about a mythical species.
There will be no negotiated peace settlement until the global private finance bully is removed from negotiations.
Hey b, how about if I come up with a peace proposal for the world? It would sure be more relevant that what you have provided here…..but thanks for your efforts

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 13 2022 14:35 utc | 188

one point would be necessary: the western oligarchs – including the “mein reset” chlaus – get a one way mission to start to populate the mars…

Posted by: covidiot | Sep 13 2022 14:35 utc | 189

Wow. Empire just never smells its own shit does it?

Posted by: gottlieb | Sep 13 2022 14:42 utc | 190

Dr.Strangelove very RationalPeacekeeper Plan
“Sir, I have a Plan, aber… ..
MEIN FÜHRER, ICH KANN WIEDER GEHEN.”

Posted by: La Bastille | Sep 13 2022 14:45 utc | 191

Peace proposals at this stage, immediately after NATO troops have openly entered the fray, are not only ridiculous, but also insulting to anyone with a drop of common sense. Sorry for the nice liberals who mouth “Kum by Yah” nostrums, but this is not any ordinary imperial war upon a Third World nation.
What we witness is a war between the united forces of evil against a recovered civilization which currently owns the upper-hand militarily. That assertion will become more evident now that the Russian people, the Narod, are themselves insisting that the Putin Administration should take off the gloves.
Make no mistake. None of the Western powers, including my homeland under the current governance of the United $tates of America CORPORATION, as duly registered within Biden’s home-state of Dupont; actually possess agency in this or any other imperial conflict. Power is held by the seven crime clans of Bank$ters, who through their ability to blackmail and bribe all prostiticians; are able to control the flow of Western policy.
Anyone who has not accomplished an in-depth study of the powers behind the WEF, the Sri-Lateral Commission, Chatham House and similar institutions, is merely ignorant of facts on the ground. Westerners by and large exist in a zone of artificial reality consisting of consumerism, serfdom and diversionary fun n’ games. There are numerous posters (and lurkers) here on MoA and Unz Review, a small but gradually growing minority of Westerners, who do have at least some inkling of real reality. Consider these sites as post-graduate finishing schools where we can learn from the accumulated wisdom of each other.
No Chamberlain umbrellas at this time, please.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 14:49 utc | 192

At least the idiots of “it’s all going according to the plan. It is a trap. Russia has already won” gave it a rest.

Posted by: Pobeda | Sep 13 2022 14:51 utc | 193

When Nato bombed Bosnia, it ceased to be a defensive alliance and became a proactive attacking alliance, it has with the steady guidance of its head, the US, crept further East until where it is today, even though it gave assurances that it would not. Nato bigwigs are also talking of expanding their reach to the South China seas.
The reason I mention the above is because if this conflict ends Nato will have limited reasons to keep pushing East, and although some Nato members secretly want the conflict to be settled, and some form of normality to return to Europe, the countries with the biggest say in the matter want it to continue.
I think the only way that some sort of accord could be reached is if European nations decided to stop supplying Ukraine with weapons and manpower, this would leave the UK and the US in a quandary, and the only way for the European countries’ leaders to do this, is if European citizens of Europe pushed for it, unfortunately some European nations are not at that point yet, maybe a cold Winter with dwindling fuel supplies might change a few minds.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 13 2022 14:54 utc | 194

Sounds like it would be a fitting end to yet another petty and pointless war.
People are right here that Putin could go all in with a draft, but is it worth it for so little?
Anyway, my guess is that peace won’t really be discussed until neither side gains a strategic advantage from the hiatus. Probably over the winter.

Posted by: ThrowsOfWar | Sep 13 2022 14:54 utc | 195

Researchers at the University of Adelaide have published a landmark paper on the activities of bot accounts on Twitter related to the conflict in Ukraine. These Australian findings are truly staggering – of 5.2 million tweets on the social media network from February 23 to March 8, between 60 to 80% were shared by fake accounts. What’s more, 90% of those posts were pro-Ukraine.
https://swentr.site/news/562509-ukrainian-bots-in-twitter/

Posted by: Dr. Kassandra Pari | Sep 13 2022 14:55 utc | 196

La Bastille @ 184
Good bit of history, with which I’m quite familiar, but doubtful whether most deliberately dumbed-down Murrikkkans would know about or care to understand. It does demonstrate a consistent tendency of the U$$A government to break treaties on a sustained basis. No compromise with these Bank$ter-ruled orfice-holders.

Posted by: aristodemos | Sep 13 2022 14:56 utc | 197

We should all be in favour of peace whilst recognising that war became nescessary because Russia felt threatened and found no one to recognize its greivance. But many here seems to have misunderstood the most important purpose of this ‘peace proposal’ and b’s post. It is not nescessary to agree with all the stated details because these are subject to negotiations, and the most important point is to focus on what are important points for each side. One can start by enumerating those.
For Russia
These were clearly stated in Putin’s address to NATO late last year and in defining the aims of the SMO.
For Ukraine
Simply put Ukraine desires to be able to choose how to align itself politically and economically and militarily.
Posted by: Orage | Sep 13 2022 12:26 utc | 102

People have an extremely naive and myopic understanding of what is happening.
The world’s conventional high-net-energy oil peaked 15 years ago. Fracking replaced the declining volumes but not the net energy. Most other nonrenewable resources are running low too.
Parallel to that you have climate change, which will make much of the world’s key agricultural areas non-viable, and will push humanity to move north.
Now where do we have a lot of land way up north and with a lot of untapped natural resources (e.g. Russia hasn’t been fracked at all but it has gigantic shale formations), that will potentially even benefit from some warming as it has great soils over a wide area (unlike Canada) but it’s currently quite cold there?
Once you start thinking about it this way, you will understand what this war is about.
This is a repetition (or perhaps more properly, continuation) of Hitler’s attempt to seize Russian natural resources.
Whether this time it will be successful hinges on people in the Kremlin. Unfortunately, they are not on Stalin’s level of commitment to the cause, and Russia is much, much weaker than what it was back then. On the other hand, the West is a wreck too so there is still a chance to defeat it. But again, a lot depends on whether the Kremlin will fight to the end this time, and I am not so sure about that after the events between late March and now…
P.S. The demonization of everything Russian is quite scary in that context — the Jews were targeted for extermination back then because they had a lot of property that could be taken, and they were easy to identify as an outgroup and thus to justify doing that to them. If one is watching carefully, the same is being done with Russians now, and if anything, the rhetoric has become even more extreme in recent months. It’s a process, don’t expect pogroms and death camps within half a year in Western Europe, but 5-6 years from now if this continues, who knows. In Ukraine they have had that time and the pogroms are happening right as we speak in Kharkov…
The difference is that the Jews didn’t have nukes, but nukes protect you only if you are willing to use them…

Posted by: Tbx | Sep 13 2022 14:57 utc | 198

Shit Proposal.
RUS just Officially closed down Negotiation Options with Kiev, BTW.
As for this delusional dream piece,
Wherein do USA and NATO/EU pay up?
Why do RUS have to declare a Violation of Intl Law? What about Murica? NATO/EU, UKR, Soros-Schwartz, Poroshenko/Merkel/Macron/Scholz/Kolomoiskyy/Zelenskyy and UKRoNazi for Unlawful Sanctions and Arms Shipments? Criminal Intent/Neglect over Donbas’ Human Rights Violations/Ethnocidal Removal Campaign?
DNR+LNR give up their Sovereignty?
Obviously a Hegemony Schill.
Not even close. Tell your friend to read up on Intel Slava Z and Slavyangrad on Telegram – if he/she can tolerate it.
That wasted 5 min of the Day – see you tomorrow.

Posted by: IronForge | Sep 13 2022 14:59 utc | 199

“Sometimes you just need to let a fight run its course. To do anything else will just make the problem fester and rear its ugly head another day.”
A.L. (157).
I take it you have no skin in the game, no sons or daughters or family members fighting on either side who God forbid, could be killed at a moment’s notice, along with any civilians who might be unlucky enough to be in a region when shells hit their targets.
It was US Civil War General William Sherman, who famously said “War is Hell.”

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Sep 13 2022 15:00 utc | 200

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