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August 13, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-128

Only for news & views related to the Ukraine conflict.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Posted by b on August 13, 2022 at 14:40 UTC | Permalink

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13.08.2022 (13:15)
Russian Defence Ministry report on the progress of the special military operation in Ukraine

The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation continue the special military operation in Ukraine.

Allied Forces offensive resulted in the complete liberation of Peski in Donetsk People's Republic.

High-precision long-range sea- and land-based missiles and multiple rocket launchers struck enemy reserves near Gavrilovka railway station, Kharkov Region, eliminating over 70 servicemen and wounding over 300 of them from 30th Mechanized Brigade of AFU.

Movement on this section of the railway is completely blocked.

High-precision strikes of the Russian Aerospace Forces against a temporary deployment point of 10th Mountain Assault Brigade near Pereyezdnoye in Donetsk People's Republic have destroyed up to 170 nationalists and 12 pieces of military equipment.

During Allied Forces offensive near Artemivsk in Donetsk People's Republic, 2 companies of 72nd Mechanised Brigade have been completely destroyed.

More than 100 nationalists and 10 pieces of military equipment have been destroyed as a result of concentrated strikes on command posts of 66th Mechanized Brigade units and the Right Sector armed formation near Starye Terny in Donetsk People's Republic.

Operational-tactical and army aviation, missile troops and artillery strikes continue against military facilities in Ukraine.

HIMARS rocket launcher and its ammunition depot have been destroyed near Kramatorsk, Donetsk People's Republic.

2 Mi-24 helicopters of Ukrainian air force have been destroyed at helipad near Domanyovka, Nikolaev Region.

4 command posts, 143 areas of manpower, arms, military and special equipment concentration have also been hit.

As part of counter-battery warfare, 2 platoons of Grad multiple-launch rocket systems near Soledar and Artemivsk, 3 artillery platoons of Acatsiya guns and 5 platoons of D-30 howitzers at firing positions near Maiorsk, Dzerzhinsk, Zvanovka, Seversk, Pereyezdnoye, Yakovlevka, Fedorovka and Vyemka in Donetsk People's Republic have been suppressed.

Russian air defence means have destroyed 4 Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles near Tsentralnoye in Nikolayev Region, Suligovka, Shestakovo and Dmitrovka, Kharkov Region.

In addition, 4 HIMARS rockets have been shot down in the air near Novaya Kakhovka, Kherson region.

In total, 267 Ukrainian airplanes and 148 helicopters, 1,736 unmanned aerial vehicles, 365 anti-aircraft missile systems, 4,297 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 798 multiple launch rocket systems, 3,295 field artillery and mortars, as well as 4,858 units of special military vehicles were destroyed during the operation.

Posted by: Summary | Aug 13 2022 14:41 utc | 1

Western sanctions against Russia are successfully contributing to de-dollarisation:

EXCLUSIVE India’s top cement maker paying for Russian coal in Chinese yuan

NEW DELHI, June 29 (Reuters) - India's biggest cement producer, UltraTech Cement (ULTC.NS), is importing a cargo of Russian coal and paying using Chinese yuan, according to an Indian customs document reviewed by Reuters, a rare payment method that traders say could become more common.
UltraTech is bringing in 157,000 tonnes of coal from Russian producer SUEK (...), the document showed. It cites an invoice dated June 5 that values the cargo at 172,652,900 yuan ($25.81 million).

(...) The increasing use of the yuan to settle payments could help insulate Moscow from the effects of western sanctions imposed on Russia over its invasion of Ukraine and bolster Beijing's push to further internationalise the currency and chip away at the dominance of the U.S. dollar in global trade.

(...) The sale highlights how India has maintained trade ties with Russia for commodities such as oil and coal despite the western sanctions.

-Mr. President, on the day you decided to sanction Russia, had no one thought about about the possible unfortunate consequences?

-Well, how can I put it... It was the trainee's day off.

Posted by: Leuk | Aug 13 2022 14:54 utc | 2

Thanks to Summary | Aug 13 2022 14:41 utc | 1 for the MoD summary

It certainly looks like the HIMARS are being taken out....anyone with a running total about how many delivered and how many destroyed to date?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 13 2022 15:00 utc | 3

I count 7 HIMARS destroyed and rumors of one being sold to the Russians.

Posted by: John Nudo | Aug 13 2022 15:04 utc | 4


Posted by: John Nudo | Aug 13 2022 15:05 utc | 5

@ John Nudo | Aug 13 2022 15:05 utc | 5 with the data points about HIMARS in Ukraine

Thanks. I am curious about their overall impact on the Ukraine many brought into the zone, how much used and to what effect and then how many destroyed......I expect the only happy folks are the merchants of war tools.

I didn't expect this SMO to continue at this pace. I expected the situation to escalate in Ukraine and around the world sooner to pressure the God of Mammon cult into ending their bully ways of social control and am being proven wrong. I do believe the outcome will remain the same but more must die and suffer to structurally change the Western social contract away from private finance.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 13 2022 15:22 utc | 6

Caitlin Johnstone: Ukraine Gets CBS to Retract Critical Report

We’ve already seen that the Western media will uncritically report literally any claim made by the government of Ukraine in bizarre instances like the recent report that Russia was firing rockets at a nuclear power plant it had already captured, or its regurgitation of claims that Russians are raping babies to death from a Ukrainian official who ended up getting fired for promoting unevidenced claims about rape.

Now we see a Western media outlet retracting claims of their own when the Ukrainian government tells them to. [more]

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Aug 13 2022 15:42 utc | 7

It's funny that you mention a trip to Crimea, that has been on mind for several years, way before 2022, and ever since reading a couple of books by author RH Auslander; specifically, "An Incident on Simonka" (2016?) and "Sevastopol, The Third Defense, 2013-2014: A Premonition, The Move South" (2018).

The books intrigued me, as the author seemed to have a very unique background, and I liked his use of the device of a novel (fiction) to suggest certain things that might or might not have actually taken place.

Posted by: Yashuo | Aug 11 2022 17:49 utc | 66

A post from the last thread that jumped out. This man, an American who moved to Crimea many years ago is not only a top class writer but has now suffered more than most since 2014 with members of his family, killed and injured in the fighting in Donbas.

Posted by: JohninMK | Aug 13 2022 16:06 utc | 8

Over the past day, the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Kherson direction have lost

more than 200 killed and wounded
2 UAVs
3 BMP-1
5 T-64 tanks

four HIMARS MLRS shells? were destroyed

As a result of strikes, two underground warehouses with ammunition for MLRS Grad and Hurricane were destroyed

Posted by: Kherson | Aug 13 2022 16:18 utc | 9

USA sent 7 or 8 HIMARS, then +4, then announced +4 again. That's 16.
UK sent 3 M270, then +3.
Germany also sent 3.
That's 25 new MLRS for Ukraine since June.

But it really doesn't matter. Russia destroyed 797 MLRS in total.
From the USA brand, destroyed 7 and presumably bought 1. That leaves 8 for Ukraine (4 there on the front line and 4 arriving).

What difference does it make? Why track a specific model? I tell you why: because the western "journalists" that made so much noise about it, were paid to do so. By whom? Lockeed Martin.

Now, when Western governments spend more in their "Defense", when NATO national budgets go up to 2% GDP while people can't handle inflation, cold, and recession, the positive propaganda will allow the "leaders" to say something like: *but it's money well spent, because it's on HIMARS to defeat Putin*

Actually, the reason why Russia decided to play along and start announcing each destruction of this particular model of MLRS, serves 2 purposes:
- more talk about HIMARS, keeping the brand popular in Western consciousness;
- PsyOp, because every HIMARS destroyed is a direct blow against NATO propaganda, and later it will take its toll when European governments apply austerity while at the same time try to increase "Defense" spending to 2% GDP.

Now, talking about Ukrainian terrorism around the Nuclear Power Plant, I can only expect Russia to keep doing the same: not biting the bait for more escalation.
Well, maybe only one or two KALIBRations around Western Ukraine's nuclear power plants, as a final warning, in case Medvedev's rethoric is not enough as a first warning.

Posted by: Carlos Marques | Aug 13 2022 16:24 utc | 10

Nazi Dmitry Korchinsky said that the AFU needs to strike at the Zaporozhye NPP:
"Yes, it's a risk. Many people will suffer, but even more people will suffer if Russian administrations and nuclear facilities are not attacked now. It is necessary to strike, there is no other way"

Posted by: rk | Aug 13 2022 16:25 utc | 11

Re Zaporozhye

The sure way to stop this nonsense and the resulting catastrophe would be for the RF to issue an ultimatum to the US and the UK
that if the Ukrainians keep shelling the Zaporozhye NPP the RF will NUKE Washington and London.

End of game.

Posted by: CarlD | Aug 13 2022 16:26 utc | 12

@Carlos Marques | Aug 13 2022 16:24 utc | 11

They'll have to do more than cheap Medvedev social media posts. There are 4 npps and as soon as they reach them Ukr will start attacking them. The one closest to Pooland might be hit even right now, simply to try to involve nato.
Russia can't have a terrorist state attacking npps, chemical plants, bridges or filling cities with petal mines. The next step is shooting over the border at npps inside Russia or Belarus. At the stage nato is today, even if Russia kills all Ukr soldiers, the remaining nazis and mercenaries can do terrorism with no problems. All puppets' heads have to fall, there is no other way.

Posted by: rk | Aug 13 2022 16:39 utc | 13

Chay Bowes has an article at Covert action magazine on Ukraine propaganda:

The problem is that there really is nothing new to say, while all the events add up to an indictment of the Ukrainian regime and its demented sponsors in Washington with a policy which has been on autopilot since at least 1947 and probably goes back to the, now forgotten, General Hoffman in 1918.

Posted by: bevin | Aug 13 2022 16:39 utc | 14

* Russia destroyed 798, not 797 MLRS.

The reason why I'm 100% sure western "journalists" were sponsored by Lockeed Martin to talk well about HIMARS, is because there's no longer JOURNALISM, as a honored profession, but only Infotainment as an economical activity like all others.

And I remember well when subprime crisis was investigated later, and also the following Great Recession. Many leaks were made public of "journalists" having their luxury vacations paid by banks, then saying those banks were "solid" and then those banks bankruped.

This also happened with Uber. A sh*tty service, whose sole purpose is expand the "gig economy" model of mass destruction of labor rights, and worse: make all investment go to the "colaborator" side. This is the late stage of bloodsucking Capitalism.

So, if a "journalist" talks about "all the qualities" of a specific product, that's not journalism, that's a paid ad. The payment method might be to the "journalist", to the opinion-"maker", to the channel/media station, or to all. It might be cash in an offshore account, a luxury vacation, a better job offer, a huge advertising contract, etc.

And when the Pentagon, with its "unlimited" budget, decides to also play this game, we have the biggest propaganda machine in World history all around Kiev's regime.
And I'm not even going to talk about those placed in media corporations by the secret services and intelligence agencies.
Or even the useful idiots brainwashed by their peers, "think"-tanks, and other propaganda, that volunteerly also say "the right things" for free.

Posted by: Carlos Marques | Aug 13 2022 16:42 utc | 15

Another link!
"Who wants a nuclear disaster in Ukraine? The role of the Black International"
By Dimitris Konstantakopoulos

"...We have been pointing out for a long time the existence of an extremist “Black International” within the Western system, acting with the methods of “entryism”, provocations and the creation of faits accomplis, in order to push the whole western system of power in its preferred direction.

"This tendency is responsible for all the wars in the Middle East, for the overthrow of the entire arms control regime installed in the world 30 years ago and for the crisis in Ukraine. They tried to provoke a US invasion of Syria in 2013 and – repeatedly – to provoke a war against Iran. We hope they have nothing to do with COVID.

"Their strategy is to spread war and chaos, hoping that in this way they will preserve Western domination on the planet. It is the Wolfovitz, Jeremiah, Huntington scenario.

"They will not succeed in assuring western domination, but they can, if they try hard enough, blow up the world..."

Posted by: bevin | Aug 13 2022 16:43 utc | 16

"there's no longer JOURNALISM"
- in Mainstream Media.
I forgot that part. I have to be fair for the actual journalists that are still out there.

Posted by: Carlos Marques | Aug 13 2022 16:45 utc | 17

It appears to me that western behavior extrapolates to direct and unlimited conflict with Russia. For technocrats is purely a formality, does not reflect personal views nor to they generally expect significant personel discomfort as a result. It is the nature of bureaucracies that they wing themselves up to justify the most extreme behavior. So far, Russia hoping/expecting that they may come to thier senses but when large corrupt bureacracy meets resistance it only reacts to increase force often extending the same measures which resulted in undesirable outcomes. Particulary when the bureacracy is only a tool/surrogate of larger interests.

I believe that Russia might get ahead of the escalation curve by putting west on notice that it deems itself justified to respond in kind to genocidal, nuclear threat - targeting wider military targets including decision making centers with wide scale destruction.

Unfortunately, perhaps there is no one with power to change course listening on the western side. This would be portrayed as a bluff and anyway is desired outcome for some I suspect. One cannot intimidate the insane.

Posted by: jared | Aug 13 2022 16:47 utc | 18

Yesterday, another barfly mentioned an intelslava post about a Russian buildup in preparation for a move in southern Ukraine.


I wanted to know if more information was available about this. Below are some stories I tracked down related to the potential Russian offensive and the Ukrainian offensive...veracity TBD. Not much out there.


Kyiv Independent Article Aug 8 2022


Posted by: Objective Observer | Aug 13 2022 16:54 utc | 19

RIA Novosti reports that a total of 40 civilians, including 2 children, have stepped on PFM-1 “Lepestok” anti-personnel mines in the DPR since the Ukraine first started to disperse them over civilian areas on July 30; one civilian has died from injuries. Here’s a photo of an old woman who stepped on a PFM-1 mine on August 6 on Zharikova Street, Donetsk: photo.

Posted by: S | Aug 13 2022 17:31 utc | 20

Looks like someone has turned up the crazy to 11 yesterday. Summary:

1. Several Western MSM reports of vague Ukraine 'plans' to evacuate civilians near Zaporizhzhia NPP 'in case of emergency'. Mostly came out after useless UN meeting and calls for 'demilitarized zone' around NPP.

2. Someone (US/NATO) orders continued shelling of Zaporizhzhia despite warnings and UN 'concern'. NPP and Enerhodar report increased shelling and damage. Nothing critical struck at NPP.

3. Strange announcement yesterday about Ukraine ordering recruiting centers and some government/military offices closed/evacuated from Nikopol, Marganets, Zaporizhzhia (city, not NPP) among others.

4. Stranger still, I can't find a single article or social media post about #3 today for reference even though I took particular notice of it yesterday when I saw reports of it. This may have been on Ukrainian language sites and I just can't find it easily today using english-based search engines. It wasn't related to the orders for evacuations in Donbas. This was specifically about Ukrainian cities around the NPP and the odd mention of evacuating 'recruiting centers'. Ukraine mostly press-gangs randomly snatched citizens/old men off the streets for cannon fodder today. Hard to believe there's even a need for such a thing as a 'recruiting center' at the front line or some weird need to order them closed/evacuated for any reason.

5. Reports today of the citizens of Enerhodar (where most workers at Zaporizhzhia NPP live) fleeing the city causing traffic jams. Unclear where they're fleeing to. Everyone assumes they are fleeing because of sporadic shelling from the Ukrainian side (Nikopol/Marganets) but that doesn't seem right.

6. Several social media claims about Russians(?) firing mortars somewhere near Enerhodar towards the NPP. Mostly based on sounds of the round going out and subsequent explosions several seconds later. If true, regardless of who is firing the, it undoubtedly contributes to fleeing citizens in #5

No idea what to make of this. Although I'm worried about the Zaporizhzhia NPP shelling, I can't believe either side would take it to the next level - for a false flag or any other reason. Enerhodar has been in Russian-held territory for months. Enerhodar citizens were relatively free to flee north to Zaporizhzhia (city) over a few passable roads. Likewise, Ukrainians could return from the north to Russian-held areas of Zaporizhzhia (Oblast). Russian and Ukrainian checkpoints on either side seemed to cooperate in passage either way. Vehicles were searched prior to crossing and groups could only go one way at a time due to the conditions of the roads, but they seemed to be able to cross either way with a little effort.

If anyone knows what's really happening inside Zaporizhia NPP, it's the workers and their families living in Enerhodar. It's worrisome that - after months of Russian control - Enerhodar residents are suddenly in a hurry to leave. Rosatom has some technicians at the plant, but there can't be enough to replace the thousands of Ukrainian workers that kept the plant running until now. About the only news we get from Enerhodar is from the disgruntled ex-mayor (now in Zaporizhzhia City, AFIK) and the corrupt head of Energoatom (who wants his money-maker ZNPP back).

Posted by: PavewayIV | Aug 13 2022 17:32 utc | 21

[email protected] always prudent to err on the side of caution, women and children first. Basically all non essential personnel.

Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Aug 13 2022 17:53 utc | 22

@ Posted by: PavewayIV | Aug 13 2022 17:32 utc | 22

Seems reasonable to demilitarize the npp.
Perhaps Russia could withdrawl troops to outside a radius of npp.

Posted by: jared | Aug 13 2022 17:55 utc | 23

Eva Karene Bartlett @EvaKBartlett - Aug 8, 2022 · 7:12 AM UTC

Aside from Ukraine's relentless bombing of civilian areas, tearing people into pieces...& it's firing of missiles containing petal/butterfly mines onto areas we walk, it has also repeatedly targeted water infrastructure.

For days there's been no running water in Donetsk...

Eva Karene Bartlett @EvaKBartlett - Aug 8, 2022 · 7:16 AM UTC
This is how we get water: Emergency Services delivers, we line up & wait for our chance to fill up bottles & buckets.

I used 1 5 litre bottle to bucket to "shower" yesterday, another to finally hand wash laundry. Goes quicker than you think, even if being v careful...

[4 photos]

Alkaline Stingray 碱性魔鬼鱼 @WingdingsPerson - Aug 8, 2022 · 7:16 AM UTC

Doesn't seem like there's a legitimate justification for Ukraine to be targeting water facilities but then again, we're talking about the country that blocked a whole river to Crimea for 8 years out of spite.

Article 51: Targeting Waters or Water Installations

1. Combatants shall not, for military purposes or as reprisals, destroy or divert waters, or destroy water installations, if such actions would cause disproportionate suffering to civilians.

2. In no event shall combatants attack, destroy, remove, or render useless waters and water installations indispensable for the health and survival of the civilian population if such actions may be expected to leave the civilian population with such inadequate water as to cause its death from lack of water or force its movement.

3. In recognition of the vital requirements of any party to a conflict in the defense of its national territory against invasion, a party to the conflict may derogate from the prohibitions contained in paragraphs 1 and 2 within such territories under its own control where required by imperative military necessity.

4. In any event, waters and water installations shall enjoy the protection accorded by the principles and rules of international law applicable in war or armed conflict and shall not be used in violation of those principles and rules.

Posted by: S | Aug 13 2022 17:59 utc | 24

And you mean that when the Russians withdraw..the Ukis stay outside??

Posted by: mac99 | Aug 13 2022 18:00 utc | 25

Posted by: rk | Aug 13 2022 16:39 utc | 14

Well, you may have noticed that Dmitry Medvedev had gone to LNDR on the 11th August with a delegation to meet the heads of the republics. He had gone there in the name of the president of RF.

On Thursday, I visited the Lugansk People's Republic, where I met with the heads of the LPR Leonid Pasechnik and the DPR Denis Pushilin.

On behalf of the President of the Russian Federation, I held a meeting on priority measures to ensure the security of the republics of Donbass.

At the meeting, which was attended by Prosecutor General of the Russian Federation Igor Krasnov, First Deputy Head of the Presidential Administration of the Russian Federation Sergei Kiriyenko, Interior Minister Vladimir Kolokoltsev, Minister of Construction Irek Fayzullin, FSB Director Alexander Bortnikov, Head of the Investigative Committee Alexander Bastrykin, they also considered issues of promoting economic and social development of the LNR and DNR.

Particular attention was paid to the harmonization of the laws of the LPR and DPR with the legislation of the Russian Federation, the restoration of infrastructure, the repair of hospitals and the preparation of schools for the start of the school year, the solution of social problems and the support of citizens.

The head of the Investigative Committee informed about the progress of the investigation of crimes committed by Ukrainian nationalists and the collection of evidence in the framework of the criminal cases.

Posted by: rp | Aug 13 2022 18:06 utc | 26

@ S | Aug 13 2022 17:59 utc | 25

That's ok when US or Israel do it. The rules are only for idiots.

Posted by: rk | Aug 13 2022 18:07 utc | 27

Dimitry Medvedev is the deputy chief of the RF Security Council. Medved, by the way is the Bear.

Posted by: rp | Aug 13 2022 18:08 utc | 28

Posted by: rk | Aug 13 2022 16:39 utc | 14

Also, find out about Putin and Medvedev in the Leningrad days in the 90s. Not the info in wikipedia, but try to find out from other sources.

Posted by: rp | Aug 13 2022 18:11 utc | 29

@PavewayIV #22

Rybar writes:

🇷🇺🇺🇦 Ukrainian resources are pushing information about more strikes on the Zaporozhye Nuclear Power Plant. They’re also posting videos with alleged traffic jams at the exit from Energodar, where the largest nuclear power plant in Europe is located.

But with a detailed analysis of the video, you can immediately notice several inconsistencies:

▪️If the recording was indeed made this afternoon, then at these latitudes the sun should be in the south-southeast. Comparing this fact with the frames, you can see that the line of cars is moving east-north-east.

▪️It is simply impossible to go anywhere from Energodar to the north: the Kakhovka reservoir is located there. Therefore, if the video was really made somewhere in the vicinity of the city, then the convoy of cars is just at the entrance to the village.

▪️However, with a high degree of probability, the video was filmed somewhere in the central regions of the Zaporozhye region: this is indirectly indicated by the phrase at the end, where the operator advises “to go through Melitopol”. According to local residents, the recording shows a traffic jam on the road between Skelpa and Vasilyevka, caused by the blocking of a checkpoint on the border between the liberated and UAF-controlled territories.

🔻The very fact of shelling of nuclear power plants, by the way, has not been confirmed either: there is not a single video with explosions in open sources, which usually immediately appear on the network after the strikes.

But even in this case, taking into account the above points, it can be accurately stated that the video with the alleged mass exodus of Energodar residents is a deliberate disinfo of Ukrainian propagandists. Which is part of the Ukrainian campaign to create panic in the liberated territories in order to disrupt the upcoming referendum.

Posted by: S | Aug 13 2022 18:12 utc | 30

S !!!
Super analysis top

Posted by: mac99 | Aug 13 2022 18:23 utc | 31

Iran and Russia to build three satellites together

Iran and Russia are to manufacture three orbital spacecraft similar to the recently launched Khayyam spacecraft. The Minister of Information and Communication Technologies of Iran, Isa Zarepur said, "God willing, we will build Khayyam-2, Khayyam-3 and Khayyam-4 in cooperation with Russia."

He explained that the Khayyam apparatus was developed by the Iranian Space Agency, while its manufacture was carried out in Russia. On Tuesday, Roscosmos announced that the Khayyam satellite, launched on August 9 from the Baikonur Cosmodrome, had been launched into orbit.

Posted by: rp | Aug 13 2022 18:24 utc | 32

Some propagandist dipshit tweets:

Jay in Kyiv @JayinKyiv - Aug 4, 2022 · 6:46 PM UTC

Today Russians killed this little girl and her grandmother with artillery.

Every day.

But let's not provoke Putin.


The tweet gets 5000 likes, 2000 retweets, 150 quotes and 200 replies. Western “bleeding heart liberals” are predictably enraged and/or crying. “Damn those Russkie beasts!”

There’s just one little problem. You see, the little girl, her grandmother, and her ballet teacher were all residents of Donetsk and were killed by Ukrainian shelling:

Unai Zarraolandia @unaiwind - Aug 5, 2022 · 9:08 PM UTC

Her name was Katya Kutubaeva, died yesterday under the shelling of ukrainian fascist soldiers on civilian areas of the city of Donetsk, she died with her grandmother and ballet teacher Galina Volodina in Pushkin Boulevard of Donetsk.
You are @JayinKyiv a miserable scoundrel.


Of course, this one only gets 200 likes, 100 retweets, 10 quotes and 10 replies.

Posted by: S | Aug 13 2022 18:42 utc | 33

If the attacks are to prevent a referendum, the timing is wrong, it's a month till then. Or zely doesn't think he'll be around in September?

Posted by: rk | Aug 13 2022 18:44 utc | 34

@S | Aug 13 2022 18:42 utc | 34

You can't fight twitter propaganda. Not even Trump could. Don't be so sure about likes numbers, they are fake or the result of bots. Youtube likes and views are tweaked too.
Since day one they've inverted all news to feed the Western population.

Posted by: rk | Aug 13 2022 18:51 utc | 35

PavewayIV | Aug 13 2022 17:32 utc | 22
S | Aug 13 2022 18:12 utc | 31

S is correct; Another person also debunks Number 5.

Elena Evdokimova
🇺🇦 fake by @ChuckPfarrer
⬇️about the Zaporozhya nuclear station -🇺🇦 is relentlessly shelling it:
The line of vehicles is a traffic jam on the road between Skelpa and Vasilyevka

(Uses the same source)

BUT, there are other movements, including an unexpected advance North West of Kharkiv, Entry into Bakhmut after four weeks (DPR), Pisky nearly all taken, Marinka breached etc. and renewed Russian pressure ALL along the line in Donbas.

All of which suggest the total breakdown of Ukraine's defensive lines must be close. The recalling of Ukrainian "recruitment centres and Town officials", is part of a generalized movement and they were told to "bring the city records with them". One reason could be to set up a "Government in exile" later.
Must keep the cash flow, see Juan Guaido.

"Speculation" says that there could be a massive airdrop coming, and my own "bet" is on Dnipro, as it would allow movement into the territory north of the Zaphoriza plant but on the other side of the river (Nikopol). Even towards Zeles "hometown". (Not sure what in-depth defensive lines exist in that area.)

It has a big dam and several bridges, which could be useful to cross the Dniepr, plus a large train shunting yard.

PS. Plus a small granite island just downriver of the dam called "Stone bird island", but those are not relatives of mine.

Posted by: Stonebird | Aug 13 2022 19:03 utc | 36

@ S | Aug 13 2022 18:42 utc | 31 + 34 who is on a roll providing info at the bar...thanks

What is unfortunate about the poisoning of measurement of public sentiment is that we need to have such in some form with any form of social organization/government but with transparency integrated and trust rebuilt.

We have talked here at the bar for years about how empire needs to die of its own ugly structure and ways instead of being conquered by some other Might-Makes-Right believer. I think the evidence of the ugly of the God of Mammon structured empire is mounting and will be burnt into the memories of all humans going through this period.

I commend Russia for the way in which it is executing its Ukraine SMO and strategies to attain its geo-political goals.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 13 2022 19:04 utc | 37

Ah, the Ukraine, a bastion of democracy and human rights: video.

The moderate Nazi concludes the extremely democratic execution by proclaiming in Ukrainian: “That’s what will happen to every enemy who comes to kill our women, children and dishonor our land. Glory to Ukraine, and death to enemies!” The “enemy”, of course, is also a Ukrainian, so he didn’t really “come” to the Ukraine—he was there all the time—but who cares about such trifles when the totally-real-and-not-at-all-a-complete-and-utter-bullshit “Ukrainian democracy and human rights” are at stake?

Posted by: S | Aug 13 2022 19:18 utc | 38

US Space Command Commander James Dickinson expressed outrage over the recently launched Russian satellite Cosmos 2558. The military is convinced that the Russian satellite is following the American one in orbit. He called the launch of the Russian satellite Cosmos 2558 "irresponsible behavior" as its orbit coincides with the orbit of the American military satellite USA 326.

Russia launched Cosmos 2558 into the same orbital plane as military satellite USA 326 on August 1. It was launched at the time when the American satellite was passing over the Plesetsk cosmodrome. Experts tracking the orbits of both satellites have strong suspicions that the Russian satellite is spying on the American one. The Russian satellite can maneuver in orbit to approach a US military satellite.

Following another satellite's orbit in space isn't entirely illegal. Although the US government will complain, in the end there is nothing they can do about it.

Posted by: rp | Aug 13 2022 19:35 utc | 39

Tip :
Google the nickname "joe9211"
Little pro, just whether also a troll?
But measured by his participation on almost every page, whether English or Chinese, suggests full-time!

Posted by: mac99 | Aug 13 2022 19:38 utc | 40

I like how nothing is Ukraine's when the news needs you to feel invested. Europes bread basket, Europe's largest nuclear plant...European values.
I just saw an interview with Canada's own Crystia Freeland, typical political "we are going to adress the big stuff" zero substance chat but she randomly threw in "if we don't hang together we will hang alone"
Has nobody noticed the "Nazi show" actually seems like the Nazi party is back and in charge?

Posted by: OhhCanada | Aug 13 2022 19:42 utc | 41

Starts a Pinterest entry, 0 Followers, 4 Following, 0 Pins

What a great troll;-)

Seriously, if you expect to get paid, you REALLY need to up your game.


But ridiculing them is SO much fun1

Posted by: Old canadian | Aug 13 2022 19:45 utc | 42

Reply to 33

It's an interesting situation. Eventually, I think the US has sanctioned so many nations that they could then band together as one to trade and supply each other as needed, with the US and EU vassals shut out. I don't think there's much left that these states can't get otherwise.

Posted by: Eighthman | Aug 13 2022 19:47 utc | 43

My tip....thank you

Posted by: mac99 | Aug 13 2022 19:48 utc | 44

g7 chooses not to stop shelling of nuclear plant.

just wanted to see if printing it out would make it easier to take. i am very cynical, and have been worried about a false flag, but this still shocked me. and that it hasn't caused a huge uproar.

the unsc meeting was so depressing.

Posted by: polarbear4 | Aug 13 2022 19:51 utc | 45

Russia IMO are misguided in announcing Referendums when they can't offer the various regions SECURITY. These announcements only further provoke the Nazi Ukrainian regime into committing more War Crimes against civilians.

Secure the Donbass, take whatever other regions you want and when the threat of the Ukrainian regime is negated, proceed with elections, not while civilians are at their most vulnerable.

Posted by: WTFUD | Aug 13 2022 19:56 utc | 46

Posted by: joe9211

"Putin and the russians are too slow.."

You know why?Because they were waiting for you to liberate the People of Donbass from the ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the former ukraine..but don't be afraid they are succeeding even without you,keyboard hero.

Posted by: LuBa | Aug 13 2022 19:59 utc | 47

People are misinterpreting what Freeland says when she states, ostensibly about the NDP, that "we are in charge". What she means is, "Trudeau and I are following orders from the WEF where I am a board member, and Singh also a WEF Young Leader, better remember who is in charge of the Canadian government... Klaus Schwab, who has over 50% "penetrated" said gov't. (his word not mine, and Trudeau confirmed this by subsequently praising Schwab at that same gathering.)

This is banner-waving Ukie-nazi-in-residence Freeland, who supports the Zelenski cabal with money, weapons and propaganda.

Posted by: Old canadian | Aug 13 2022 20:07 utc | 48

For1: Eighthman, 47
Following the Nonalignment Nations Associacion (or so), there is a great space for the US Sanctioned Nations Trade Alingment (or so). Could be open, BRICS is the working prototype.

Posted by: logosApplied | Aug 13 2022 20:27 utc | 49

g7 chooses not to stop shelling of nuclear plant.

Posted by: polarbear4 | Aug 13 2022 19:51 utc

There might be another way to interpret what is going on with the ZNPP.

I just checked CNC and CTV "news" and Ukraine seems to have indeed disappeared from the "top of main page" spot. A couple of nothing blurbs down the splash page, but that's it. Even the Ukraine-specific sub-page is not piled with major "news".

Could it be that Zelenski has gone rogue regarding the ZNPP? Maybe the US doesn't want to be connected to the second "country" which deliberately caused non-military-objective-carnage by massive irradiation of a civilian population?

How to convince Z that doing so is a bad idea? De-platform him. If that doesn't work, quietly stop sending him toys and cash until he falls back in line.

Assassinating Z would be difficult to pin on Russia (for long), as Russia really hasn't noticeably engaged in reported Tactical Team attacks in western Ukraine. If they were, Z would have been screaming it from the rooftops.

And IIRC, Russia has consistently, publicly said they want Z alive to negotiate as the "legitimate" president of Ukraine, otherwise it becomes a mess as to who can actually negotiate at all.

Posted by: Old canadian | Aug 13 2022 20:28 utc | 50


Posted by: Old canadian | Aug 13 2022 20:29 utc | 51

The Crisis in Ukraine Is Not About Ukraine. It’s About Germany By Mike Whitney, first posted on Global Research on February 13, 2022, prior to the Russian invasion
Interesting read...

Posted by: rp | Aug 13 2022 20:55 utc | 52

RT reports "Moscow reveals ‘point of no return’ in Russia-US relations" which has a very serious possibility of occurring:

If the US designates Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism, it would represent “a point of no return” in relations between the two countries, and Washington is aware of that, Moscow has explained.

In an interview with TASS published on Saturday, the head of the Russian Foreign Ministry’s North American Department, Aleksandr Darichev, was asked about the possibility of downgrading relations with the US over its support for Ukraine in the conflict with Russia and the unprecedented sanctions imposed on Moscow.

“I wouldn’t want to philosophize about what’s possible and what’s not in the current turbulent situation when the US-led West has trampled upon international law and absolute taboos in diplomatic practice,” he said.

The diplomat commented on the idea of labeling Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism, which has been promoted recently by US lawmakers.

“Its implementation would mean that Washington has crossed the point of no return with the most serious collateral damage for bilateral relations, up to downgrading of their level and even severance of all ties,” Darichev said, adding that “the American side has been warned” about it.

This threat is a result of actions by the Outlaw US Empire's Congress, which was just polled as having a 7% level of approval/confidence as an institution. Warhawk Pelosi's leading the charge:

In late July, the US Senate unanimously approved a non-binding resolution calling upon US Secretary of State Antony Blinken to designate Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism.

In the House of Representatives, a similar move is supported by Speaker Nancy Pelosi. According to a report by Politico, Pelosi even warned Blinken that if he does not move ahead with the measure, Congress will do so itself by passing legislation.[My Emphasis]

As far as I know, not one constituent's been asked if they want Congress to do such an irresponsible thing. Now we here at the bar know this is 100% projection. IMO, this is the clearest evidence that the Ds want war with Russia, giving credence to the item provided by bevin @17 above. My research says the Ds were coopted by CIA during the 1980s and we've had two CIA-presidents since in Clinton and Obama, and now a heavy presence with Biden's minders and Pompeo before them. The Rs aren't any better, but their extremists are more cautious when it comes to starting a war after the failures of Iraq and Afghanistan, which is one reason why Trump was, and continues to be, attacked so viciously--he has a different idea about plundering than the Ds and CIA. Given Biden's ineptitude and resulting weakness, I fully expect Pelosi to carry through with her threat despite the fact that a majority of US citizens would oppose such a radical move.

It seems prudent to rethink what might occur if/when this step is taken. Biden could veto the bill, but are there enough Crazies to overturn?

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 13 2022 20:57 utc | 53

S | Aug 13 2022 17:59 utc | 25

Doesn't seem like there's a legitimate justification for Ukraine to be targeting water facilities

It's the US way of war - remember Iraq, Syria, Serbia, Yemen.

Posted by: cirsium | Aug 13 2022 21:00 utc | 54

RT has a second article based on the TASS interview with the Director of the Department of North America of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation A.N. Darchiev, and a transcript in Russian is available. I see the How Ukraine thread is now dead, so I'll copy/paste the machine translation there so those interested can read it.

Okay, 'tis done and can be found here.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 13 2022 21:13 utc | 55

Designating the USA a "State Sponsor of Terrorism" and citing chapter and verse to prove it would be a 'slam-dunk'.
From the Forest Brothers through to ISIS and the various bands of goons they have working in Africa there is a superfluity of evidence, (most of it well known to the UN member governments who have been victims of US proxies), beyond any doubt that is is high time to fight lies with truths.
The United States is the sponsor of ninety per cent of the terrorism-including that from which it suffers-in the world.
Call it Belling the Cat.

Posted by: bevin | Aug 13 2022 21:16 utc | 56

cirsium @58--

Yes, 100% documented acts of State Terrorism the Outlaw US Congress ought to sanction itself for and declare itself the #1 Global sponsor and deliverer of Terror.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 13 2022 21:17 utc | 57

It's almost impossible to figure out what is happening in the war.
All governments lie (Izzy Stone), most especially in wartime.

Some guesses/opinions.

a) The war in the South is close to a stalemate. Very little progress
on the ground. Both sides are suffering serious losses in men and materiel
but Ukraine more so.

b) Partisan/Spacial forces action behind the Russian lines is a problem for
Russia. The damage to the airfield in Crimea was serious and probably a
result of such action. [The alternative is incompetence].

c) Strategically this is bad for Russia. The industrial capacity
of Europe and North America is much greater than Russian capacity.
How many HIMARS can be manufactured and delivered in the next year?

d) Shelling nuclear power plants is beyond stupid.

e) The danger of escalation is very real, and many decision makers seem
oblivious to the risks. We need a settlement very soon.

Posted by: Nick | Aug 13 2022 21:17 utc | 58


I’ve finally got around to answering your questions on one of the previous Open Threads: link.

Posted by: S | Aug 13 2022 21:31 utc | 59

It's almost impossible to figure out what is happening in the war.

Some guesses/opinions.

Posted by: Nick | Aug 13 2022 21:17 utc

No point in knocking these down point by point. It wastes our time and annoys the pig.

The only way that your guesses and opinions to make ANY sense is if one gives any credence to anything the US/ZATO gov'ts and their presstitutes say.

I suggest you spend some time reading 6 months of Ukraine-related back-articles and posts (including the past trollery highlights) here at MoA to figure out the level expected.

Is this like Zelenski sending untrained troops to the grinder that the front has become? US/ZATO not paying well enough to get their best boiler-room commenters to grace MoA?

Posted by: Old canadian | Aug 13 2022 21:34 utc | 60

bevin | Aug 13 2022 21:16 utc | 60--

Thanks for your reply. IMO, Russia, China, and a host of other nations should have done so long ago--1948 in Guatemala as a starting point. As we know, fascists use terror as a tool and don't give a damn about the consequences, and its longstanding use tells us the Empire isn't going to stop unless it's forced to stop. My question for Russia and China is: Where's your Red Line to the Empire's use of Terror when you'll need to take immediate action to halt its activities? Russia answered part of that with its SMO in response to the terrorizing of Donbass, but it hasn't completely stopped it yet.

A longer answer deserves more contemplation as there're many nuances to a severance of relations. The Senate vote was unanimous, but the measure was non-binding. How will it vote if passing it has very important meaning?

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 13 2022 21:38 utc | 61

Could it be that Zelenski has gone rogue regarding the ZNPP? Maybe the US doesn't want to be connected to the second "country" which deliberately caused non-military-objective-carnage by massive irradiation of a civilian population?

Posted by: Old canadian | Aug 13 2022 20:28 utc | 54

It's not clear to me how Zelenski would expect to benefit from doing something of which his handlers/sponsors/suppliers might disapprove.

Posted by: David Levin | Aug 13 2022 21:40 utc | 62

reply to 62

Through the fog of war, it's hard to say.

a) Is Russia building up to something? Are they attempting a radical strategy of killing off so many young male Ukrainians that resistance becomes impossible? Why is Ukraine afraid of winter? Ukraine is wholly supported by the West ($). How long can that go on?

b) Is there reasonable evidence of this partisan activity? Or is it exaggerated? Was the airport in Crimea just an accident?

c) many of the estimates on HIMARS and other equipment aren't good. Like years to restart production.

d)The G7 seems rather apathetic about it. It is claimed that wrecking the facility is pretty difficult. Looking their HIMARS damage to the bridge in Kherson (not that much), maybe it'll be OK.

e) The "Baghdad Bob" or "Black Knight" attitude of Zelensky is just weird. It would be hilarious if people weren't being killed en masse. At this rate, I don't see how Ukraine emerges as a viable nation. They're wrecked, broke and depopulated.

Posted by: Eighthman | Aug 13 2022 21:41 utc | 63

S | Aug 13 2022 21:31 utc | 63--

Excellent, and thanks very much. I've taken to reading the Russian version of TASS too as there's more info.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 13 2022 21:45 utc | 64

There might be another way to interpret what is going on with the ZNPP.

I just checked CBC [Corrected per poster's subsequent post.--DL] and CTV "news" and Ukraine seems to have indeed disappeared from the "top of main page" spot. A couple of nothing blurbs down the splash page, but that's it. Even the Ukraine-specific sub-page is not piled with major "news".

Posted by: Old canadian | Aug 13 2022 20:28 utc | 54

This might be an indication that the mainstream media are shifting focus to whatever Crisis du Jour has displaced the subject of Ukraine.

Posted by: David Levin | Aug 13 2022 21:48 utc | 65

Very useful article by Sputnik about HIMARS:

Cancian said his estimate is that the United States has produced about 50,000 guided missiles since 2004, when the production began, with 5,800 to be procured this year alone. At the same time, the Biden administration has provided Ukraine with about a third or 10,000 of HIMARS missiles in US stock.

The colonel also said that manufacturer Lockheed Martin is trying to increase production levels, but it takes time to do so, usually about 18 to 24 months, while the HIMARS launchers are currently not in production.

While it remains unclear how many HIMARS the United States has at the moment, it is known that by 2009 Lockheed Martin produced about 250 units for the Army and Marine Corps, the report said.

According to official data, the United States to date has supplied Ukraine with 16 HIMARS systems and with munition for them.

Yes, there's more at the link.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 13 2022 21:55 utc | 66

If someone looks at the map, you'd notice that Kakhovka hydroelectric station (GES) is ~150 kms to the south of Energodar nuclear electric power plant (NPP)on the Dnipro river.

If by any chance, the Ukies could bomb the Kakhovka GES and break the dam, it won't trouble the Energodar NPP -- water won't flow upwards. It won't even flood Kherson, as water will just flow out to Dniprovski Gulf, and to the Black Sea. There's lot of marshy land to absorb the water. The other matter is that the Ukies doesn't have the fire power to break the Kakhovska dam.

On the matter of Energodar NPP, the Ukies can shoot any amount, but they won't be able to damage the concrete cover. The nuclear waste is safeguarded against a nuclear bomb attack, so the Ukies can play their Himars comedy. The nuclear plant itself is also safeguarded against such the Soviets, not by the Ukies of today (or yesterday). RF forces took over the Energodar NPP and Kherson, Zaprozhzhia at the very beginning for a reason. They played that 40-mile long convoy near Kiev also for the same reason. While everyone was panicking, the RF forces did the job.

Russia, of course, would make a big noise about Ukies trying to make a nuclear catastrophe, but they know very well that the Ukies can't do much. Why not keep the panic button high for some more time, until RF forces would do something else?

In the next few days, Bachmyt, Kramatorsk, Slovyansk will taken in a cauldron. Then, it'd be the end of the story for the Ukie forces.

Posted by: rp | Aug 13 2022 22:00 utc | 67

d) Shelling nuclear power plants is beyond stupid.

e) The danger of escalation is very real, and many decision makers seem
oblivious to the risks. We need a settlement very soon.
@Nick | Aug 13 2022 21:17 utc | 62

The industrial capacity
of Europe and North America is much greater than Russian capacity.

I dare to doubt. So does RUSI
Deindustrialization was great for neoliberal rent collectors but detrimental for any kind of "production battle". See also

How many HIMARS can be manufactured and delivered in the next year?

I would estimate >50 <100 launchers, both HIMARS and M270 together, within a year. Pentagon planned to order 240 such guns over a period of 4 years. And it is far from clear that such an order would not run into supply chain and resource troubles, maybe needing commodities and pre-products from Russia and China.

What is known, is the actual maximum capacity of GMLRS missiles for the launchers by Lockheed Martin, namely 7000 per year. Same as above applies here too, not sure whether they are able to sustain it. As to stocks, there were 40,000 rounds ever produced, distributed between all NATO partners, Australia, NZ, Taiwan and a few more. At best, 20k will be available to be shipped to UA, and the state of some may resemble that of Javelins and Stingers. Some missiles landed unexploded behind the front and were displayed by the Russians.

GMLRS are an effective pinpoint weapon, albeit not very powerful. The missile is a 200kg steel tube. Unguided MLRS missiles from HIMARS/M270 with a range of 30km were reported by Lockheed to have a warhead mass of 90kg. The 70-80km range guided version, with additional solid fuel and gear for steering and targeting naturally have less, I estimate 40-50kg, as much as a heavy field artillery or howitzer shell. The pictures of damage at Antonovsky bridge corroborate that.

In summary, HIMARS/M270 is no wonder weapon, as wasn't Javelyn and so on.

d) Shelling nuclear power plants is beyond stupid.

I agree. The silence/denial of the West, media included, is scary.

Posted by: aquadraht | Aug 13 2022 22:16 utc | 68

To add, so far around 1000 HIMARS shells appear to have been spent by Ukraine, many on civilian targets, many shot down. Several hundred, maybe 1000, are claimed to have been destroyed by Russian strikes.

Posted by: aquadraht | Aug 13 2022 22:20 utc | 69

Re Zaporozhye

The sure way to stop this nonsense and the resulting catastrophe would be for the RF to issue an ultimatum to the US and the UK
that if the Ukrainians keep shelling the Zaporozhye NPP the RF will NUKE Washington and London.

End of game.

Posted by: CarlD | Aug 13 2022 16:26 utc | 13

I thought something similar.

RF tells DC that if the Ukes cause a contamination disaster, then Russia will consider that a nuclear first strike against Russia by the US and NATO, and will respond accordingly.

I just wish the Russians would flatten that area that's shelling the plant already.

Posted by: Michigan Dude | Aug 13 2022 22:25 utc | 70

If Russia did that the AFU would be at the front doors before you could say boo.

Posted by: Guernica | Aug 13 2022 22:26 utc | 71

@ 62 Nick Xmas

No progress, hmm.

Pure nonsense, UAF are nearing total capitulation. Where are you getting your info from, Bellingcrap?

The end is nigh!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: WTFUD | Aug 13 2022 22:32 utc | 72

karlof1 | Aug 13 2022 20:57 utc | 57

I fully expect Pelosi to carry through with her threat..[…to designate Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism.]

I don’t often disagree with you karlof, but….
Yes, the drooling pitbulls in Congress need more red meat, and the “state sponsor of terrorism” tag sounds so juicy, splattered across headlines and interwebs.
But the fallout from Pelosi’s visit to Taiwan just keeps rippling.
China has used the short term hubris of the visit very much to its advantage.
The Ronald Regan lurks off the coast of Japan, awaiting another FONOPS
[Freedom of Navigation Operations]. The US confidence in provocatively sailing in Chinese-Taiwan waters is faltering.
My conjecture is internally there was extreme division on the Pelosi pomposity, and the voices of caution, who were ignored, will be full-throated “I told you so”….
Exactly like those who cautioned against disconnecting Russia from SWIFT. The euphoria, the “high” of that “win”, has resulted in a very nasty sobering.
So that’s two huge - huge - losses on the scoreboard for the Pelosi crazies.
Will they attempt a hat trick, or will the faction who could see the insanity of provoking Russia AND China finally prevail?

Posted by: Melaleuca | Aug 13 2022 22:40 utc | 73

In al demographic maps of Ukraine, the line that separates the ethnic Russian areas is also the line of the extent of historic Polish rule and also marks the edge of the Eurasian step. Belarus - Kievan Rus principalities that came under Lithuanian rule and influence. Ukraine - principalities that came under polish rule and influence.
Galica is an outlier in that it came under Austrian rule with Austria/German influence in the 140 years prior to WWI. There was a large German migration into Galicia in the period Galicia was part of Austria.

I have done a bit of an article with maps and so forth here.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Aug 13 2022 22:43 utc | 74

Here's a link to an excellent article on the British role in starting this war and making sure that it didn't end in peace talks.
"...The combination of hubris, intransigence and militarism reflected in these official UK documents helps explain how the stage was set for a mad confrontation between nuclear powers."

Posted by: bevin | Aug 13 2022 23:10 utc | 75

Michigan Dude | Aug 13 2022 22:25 utc | 74
“………RF tells DC that if the Ukes cause a contamination disaster, then Russia will consider that a nuclear first strike against Russia by the US and NATO, and will respond accordingly.”
I’d like to see some precision RF weapons placed in a “nyet” pattern just outside the perimeter of one, or all, of the west Ukrainian NPP.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Aug 13 2022 23:10 utc | 76

Will they attempt a hat trick, or will the faction who could see the insanity of provoking Russia AND China finally prevail?
@ Melaleuca | Aug 13 2022 22:40 utc | 77

Put that way, the question answers itself: Sanity cannot reasonably be expected to "finally prevail" on any timescale relevant to humans (and incidentally: where oh where is this "faction who could see"?) -- therefore it's (A) the former: Pelosi's seemingly inevitable, impending "hat trick" of arrogant foolishness (imho).

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Aug 13 2022 23:24 utc | 77

Eighthman | Aug 13 2022 21:41 utc | 67
“…Ukraine is wholly supported by the West ($). How long can that go on?”
Ukraine in default according to Fitch and S&P
Aug 12 (Reuters) - Global rating agencies S&P and Fitch on Friday lowered Ukraine's foreign currency ratings to selective default and restricted default as they consider the country's debt restructuring as distressed.
Earlier this week, Ukraine's overseas creditors backed the country's request for a two-year freeze on payments on almost $20 billion in international bonds.
The move will save Ukraine some $6 billion on payments according to Prime Minister Denys Shmyhal.
Battered by Russia's invasion, which started on Feb. 24, Ukraine faces a 35%-45% economic contraction in 2022 and a monthly fiscal shortfall of $5 billion.
Ukraine aims for $15-20 billion IMF loan by year-end, central bank governor says
Ukraine aims to strike a deal for a $15-$20 billion programme with the International Monetary Fund before year-end to help shore up its war-torn economy, the country's central bank governor Kyrylo Shevchenko told Reuters.

Shevchenko ……said he hoped to agree on a swap line with the Bank of England "within weeks", though he did not specify the amount.
Kyiv had already submitted its request to the IMF, the governor said, and was now in consultation with the fund over the new financing that he hoped would provide as much as $20 billion over two or three years in form of a Stand-By Arrangement or an Extended Fund Facility.

It was the first time Ukraine has put a number on the fresh financing it needs from the Washington-based lender.
A $20 billion programme would be the second largest currently active loan from the IMF after Argentina.
"The IMF has always acted as Ukraine's partner during the war," Shevchenko told Reuters.

The IMF's latest loan to Ukraine was a $1.4 billion emergency financing support agreed in March - the equivalent of 50% of the country's quota in the fund.
Separately, Kyiv is now in talks with its international creditors over a freeze in debt payments to ease its liquidity crunch. On Tuesday, Ukrainian energy firm Naftogaz has become the country's first government entity to default since the start of the Russian invasion.

Ukraine's central bank has a $1 billion line with Poland's central bank already.
Some relief on foreign exchange revenue and liquidity would also come from the deal agreed last week between Moscow and Kyiv to allow safe passage for grain shipments in and out of Ukrainian ports,
However, those revenues and shipments would only pick up in earnest next year, when under the central bank's "conservative" estimates exports could hit 5 million tonnes per month and generate approximately $5 billion in 2023, Shevchenko said.
Speaking about the central bank's intervention in currency markets as well as its bond buying programme, Shevchenko said both would continue for now, though the latter would cease as soon as the war ended.
He added that operating in times of war had seen a whole new host of vocabulary spring up, with expressions such as "maturity of war" - a term to describe the time frame of a debt instrument used in the context of the conflict.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Aug 13 2022 23:47 utc | 78

Melaleuca | Aug 13 2022 22:40 utc | 77

Thanks for your reply. It's not just Pelosi, which is why I made sure I included the bit about the Senate having unanimously passed something similar already, although non-binding. Latvia's declaration was the Trial Balloon, surely another bid to attain NATO solidarity, which Turkey and Hungary will object to strenuously. Will the gambit further fracture NATO?

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 13 2022 23:50 utc | 79

apologies if this is too far off topic, regarding Nuclear provocations in Ukraine, is anyone aware of any research into the possibility of Chernobyl being an act of espionage?

Posted by: K | Aug 13 2022 23:53 utc | 80

@ Melaleuca | Aug 13 2022 23:47 utc | 83 with the comment about Ukraine finances.

Thanks for that. I have read a few of the points made but, like you, wonder at the enormity of the growing debt load going forward.

What are the chances of this Ukraine Z debt being repaid? Do the creditors get to swoop in even if Ukraine loses?

Excepting nuclear war, I can't see anything but the coming alternative Reserve Currency having money with intrinsic value bringing empire down. The minute that alternative is available, purchase of US Treasuries by lots of countries will fall dramatically, IMO.

Will the Western world wake up to the jackboot of global private finance and throw it off when that moment comes or will it take years/decades more for that to occur? Will debt like Ukraine's keep growing? I don't see how but its just numbers....grin

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 14 2022 0:17 utc | 81

psychohistorian | Aug 14 2022 0:17 utc | 86
I posted a link to the Michael Roberts blog on this very subject today. If you didn't see it here is another link to the same, very useful, piece.

Posted by: bevin | Aug 14 2022 0:40 utc | 82

@ bevin | Aug 14 2022 0:40 utc | 87 with the link I missed earlier...thanks

Reading that reminded me of The Shock Doctrine and how Mitt Romney with his corporate raiding is small time wannabees.

What a poorly motivated species we are and yet, none seem to see that the God of Mammon motivation is bad for most of us.

I really do hope that Russia and China are successful at ending this sick form of social organization.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 14 2022 1:24 utc | 83

So that’s two huge - huge - losses on the scoreboard for the Pelosi crazies. Will they attempt a hat trick, or will the faction who could see the insanity of provoking Russia AND China finally prevail?
Posted by: Melaleuca | Aug 13 2022 22:40 utc | 77

Unless Pelosi's visit aroused exactly the response desired by the US (and probably requested by PRC), namely PRC beginning a sanctions war against US which will no doubt escalate over time as with Russia such that by winter time the world supply chain from Eurasia to West will dry up.

Just next step in this globally coordinated take-down of the West.

Posted by: Scorpion | Aug 14 2022 1:43 utc | 84

Reply to 86

Ukr finances weren't great before the war. I suppose the correct question is how long the US/EU/IMF will continue paying to keep them afloat. I keep wondering if anyone in the EU is smart enough to figure that the longer the war goes on, the fewer Ukrainians they have to support - either from death or territorial loss. What they did to Libya, after their "duty to care", is pretty sad. Left it behind full of jihadis and broken.

Posted by: Eighthman | Aug 14 2022 1:59 utc | 85

Does anyone else smell the stench of American thinking in every pronouncement from the Ukrainian government? Even controversial matters are presented with signature American cultural flavor. Parse the word choices, the grammar, the logic (if there is any), and it all points to the stupid, angry, violent, domineering mode of typical American thinking. There is absolutely ZERO sovereignty in the Ukraine; just a collection of mindless Ukrainian bodies (vessels) carrying out orders from the United States. It's creepy and sad. One hopes that when the Ukrainian government is defeated and its members put on trial for crimes against humanity, the United States too will suffer a mortal blow. What a pox upon the Earth.

Posted by: Horton | Aug 14 2022 4:24 utc | 86

@ bevin 87
Thanks for the link to this wartime plan to rape the former Socialist state assets of Ukraine. I am a refugee on this blog from other spaces where the logic of privatisation of the assets of the people is considered to be a European success story.
The logic of land privatisation means 3000 mile round trips by lorry from the EU to UK just because it is profitable to move food to more expensive markets. To my mind that is like drilling for oil and burning it for heating the earth up just to make money.

Monster capitalism is institutionally incapable of solving Climate Change. I know that because I always used diesel to find construction work but now the cost of diesel keeps me out of work. I have to change my life-work idea, something desk-bound , monster Capitalists will never do because the burning if diesel is physically remote from themselves, just a figure on a calculator.

The Ukranian War is a war between socialism and capitalism. Planet and plutocrat. Or in my case, Islamic protection of the planet and Mammon.

Posted by: Giyane | Aug 14 2022 4:32 utc | 87

Thanks for all the comments on this.

sean the leprechaun | Aug 13 2022 17:53 utc | 23 Re: erring on the side of caution. I guess my point was: what changed? Why (if true) would they leave now and not previously? And why? Fear of more shelling? Some kind of new Russian offensive? A Ukraine offensive? (OK, just threw that one in for the lols) And were are the civilians going? South and east to remain in Russian controlled territory, or going east around the reservoir to get to Zaporizhzhia city? Maybe they're not 'fleeing', but going shopping in Zaporizhzhia for the weekend.

jared | Aug 13 2022 17:55 utc | 24 Re: Demilitarizing the NPP. Sorry, I respectfully disagree. I wouldn't trust AFU and damn well wouldn't trust the right-wing nutjobs. Either would make a grab for the plant. Can you imagine the nightmare of trying to smoke them out if they took over the plant and took the reactor operators hostage? I think Russia is right to guard it.

S | Aug 13 2022 18:12 utc | 31 Re: Rybar analysys. I saw that but a few things confused me.

- The sun is *not* in the south-southeast in the afternoon - it's in the south or southwest. I can see the sun reflecting off the south or west-facing edge of the truck/van windshields. The cars seem to be traveling 1) east if it's before noon, or 2) south if it's after noon. Rybar says east-northeast.

- Rybar makes a point about not being able to travel directly north from Enerhodar because of the reservoir and (I guess) uses that to suggest that - if the video was made in Enerhodar, then it must be at the edge of the city. Rybar seems to be implying that the cars are at the outer edge of Enerhodar traveling east-northeast, but there is no such road leading to Enerhodar in that direction. And that brings up the more confusing possibility that people are fleeing *into* Enerhodar from somewhere. Maybe I'm misunderstanding this.

- The last suggestion that the video was taken somewhere in central Zaporizhzhia because of the reference to going through Melitopol totally baffles me. Central Zaporizhzhia = somewhere like Tokmak. So if someone is there, in a traffic jam, and being directed to Melitopol as an alternative, then they would be traveling 50km or so to the southwest. I can't figure out why so many people would be going anywhere if they were already in central Zaporizhzhia or why they wouldn't already be going to Melitopol.

- Finally, Rybar says the locals say its a video from traffic between Skelpa (which I cannot locate on a map) and Vasilyevka backed up due to a checkpoint. Seems reasonable, but why would anyone then suggest going through Melitopol, 65 km to the south, instead?

I'm willing to believe the video is NOT a traffic jam of people fleeing Enerhodar and that will be easy enough to confirm in the next day or two. If there was that kind of exodus, then people either remaining in Enerhodar or those that left will post something about it. I'm guessing we'll hear nothing. Not sure what to make of Rybar's suggestion that it was propaganda to disrupt the referendum since it is so sloppy and easily disproved.

rk | Aug 13 2022 18:44 utc | 35 - Re: too early to disrupt the referendum. Seems like - IDK.

Stonebird | Aug 13 2022 19:03 utc | 37 - Re: Elena Evdokimova (Twitter) debunking - she blames Chuck Pfarrer, but all that guy did was repost the original by Nazi shill Jay in Kyiv. Jay in Kyiv has been ranting about [sigh] Kherson offensive/Russians cut off in Kearson/Russian commanders fleeing south across the Dnieper. The 'fleeing' video kind of goes with that narrative.
Re: Recall of Ukraine recruiters and town officials. Agree that would indicate a collapsing front, but why would Ukrainians publicly announce that? The Kherson/Zaporizhzhia front may indeed be collapsing, but this particular bit seems fabricated.
Re: Big airdrop. Intriguing, but that would be wishful thinking on my part. Russians are in slow grind mode, not big, splashy ops mode. And an airborne assault with big transport aircraft into territory monitored 24x7 by NATO with workable Ukrainian air defenses is a recipe for disaster. Still, it would be damn amazing if they pulled it off.

Posted by: PavewayIV | Aug 14 2022 6:08 utc | 88

"Today in Ukraine there are many groups of foreign soldiers and officers who train recruits of the "Territorial Defense" by order of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

We have already written about some of them earlier: for example, in the Kharkiv region there is a group of NATO instructors Trident Defense Initiative under the leadership of Daniel Ridley, as well as a group of Israeli instructors-veterans of the Israeli army.

Apparently, an internal struggle for lucrative AFU contracts has begun among such organizations. Otherwise, it is difficult to explain why Daniel Ridley launched an information attack on a group of foreign Wolverines instructors, deanonizing its founder, Sean Dennis O'Donnell.

O'Donnell claims that he is a former sergeant of the psychological warfare unit of the US Marine Corps, a veteran of the Iraq War.

However, in the database of the US Department of Defense there is information only about his service in the National Guard in 2009.

In 2015-2018, the American returned to Iraq again, where he fought in the ranks of the Kurdish Peshmerga.

In February, he founded a group of Wolverines ("Wolverines") in Ukraine, naming it after a detachment of American partisans from the anti-Soviet film "Red Dawn".

The unit consists of military instructors from about 20 countries, including the United States, Great Britain and Canada, who are engaged in combat training of Ukrainian recruits of "Territorial Defense".

As of May 19 alone, these instructors have trained over 6,000 recruits. The "graduates" of the group made them a symbol of Ukrainian military propaganda, painting the Russian equipment with the word Wolverines and introducing instructor stripes into fashion.

However, the Wolverines also perform combat missions. So, on May 15, a US citizen Stephen Zabelsky was blown up on a tripwire and killed.

On August 10, Briton Daniel Ridley accused O'Donnell of embezzling and embezzling donations, humanitarian aid and two ambulances "for tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars." According to Ridley, the American robbed the mayor of the city of Ivano-Frankivsk, and also appropriates the salaries of instructors from Wolverines.

In addition, the founder of TDI claims that O'Donnell is wanted by the Ukrainian police and even the FBI.

O'Donnell himself denies all charges and allegedly sent a complaint to the Ukrainian police.

We don't know if Ridley is cutting the truth or if he just declared war on his business competitor. The latter is extremely likely, given that instructors from Wolverines were previously also involved in the Trident Defense Initiative."

Posted by: Blmpa | Aug 14 2022 6:20 utc | 89

Barflies should be under no illusions. Kiev’s military is NATOland trained, organized, and commanded. It’s also highly probable that thousands (tens of thousands ?) of various NATOland military is currently active inside Kiev‘s territory.

Posted by: Exile | Aug 14 2022 6:55 utc | 90

Message News agency: In Okland (USA) there was a strange loud bang that unsettled the population. Supposedly a meteorite that entered the atmosphere?
From my youth I know the "bang" that occurs when an aircraft exceeds or falls below the sound limit.
Question :
Is it possible that Russia sent a hypersonic missile towards the US to show Biden "we could do it"???
Just a theory, but probably possible!

Posted by: mac99 | Aug 14 2022 7:33 utc | 91

However much Ukies bomb/throw missiles at Energodar NPP, they can't break through the concrete cover. They can keep on playing the Himars comedy.

Russia also plays along the Ukie comedy to keep everyone focused on upcoming nuclear disaster, while concentrating on a much more important matter in liberating DPR, that is, encircling the highly fortified region, Bakhmut, Kramatorsk, Slovyansk. Once, these areas are taken, or blocked and suppressed, it'd be the end of story for the Ukie army. Right now, half the Soledar had been taken.

In the meantime, RF forces are slowly, but surely moving around Kharkov. Also, holding a a large part of Ukie army near/around Nikolayev. Ukies have to keep a part of its army in around Sumi too. That is, there's more than 800kms of front line, not considering the Odessa oblast. Its pretty hard for them to determine, where would the RF forces break through, even with all those US/UK spy planes, US spy satellites.

I feel that in a few weeks, the highly fortified region, Bakhmut, Kramatorsk, Slovyansk will be encircled. When that happens, or just before that, many military infrastructure of western Ukie cities will be Kinshalled.

By the way, many military/intelligence "experts" in the western MSM are a bit "troubled" with the slow motion or no-motion of the RF forces for the last few days. Still, for them, Russians are too tired, doesn't have enough weapons...😃

Posted by: rp | Aug 14 2022 7:41 utc | 92

psychohistorian | Aug 14 2022 0:17 utc | 87

re In Ukraine, the threatened invasion of foreign capital

Ukrainian assets constitute the collateral required to keep the western financialized game going.

Posted by: pogohere | Aug 14 2022 8:05 utc | 93

PavewayIV | Aug 14 2022 6:08 utc | 93

Thanks for the reply.

Re: Recall of Ukraine recruiters and town officials. that particular point was probably PR to "strike enough terror" (Joe Tzu karaté style) into people in the area to leave. Although taking the offficial records with them may have something to do with a certain "Million man army" and a line of coke. Or a new devious "Black Adder" type of plan by Zelensky. (Retirement as a new Gov. in exile)
Airdrop and Zaporizhzhia. Here I have to eat crow as I mentioned/confused it with Dniepro which is further North. Zaporizhzhia is the one with the large Dam (Too big to blow up?) and several bridges just upstream.
Thinking it through now, It could be another spot for a FF and put the NPP in some danger if breached, but that is also rather stupid as it might make crossing the Dniepr upstream easier. "Foot meet bullet" for the Ukes and NATO, (as the only material that is not in short supply for them is stupidity).
However, from earlier maps there are two fortified lines betweeen the present postions of the Russians and Zaporizhzhia along the eastern river bank. Neither of which extend eastwards very far into the agricultural plain. (Based in one case behind another tributary joining the Dniepr). It may be worth leapfrogging them by air, but risky as you say, and is probably unlikely.

PS. Now I notice that crows round here are in short supply, I wonder why?

Posted by: Stonebird | Aug 14 2022 8:09 utc | 94

Blmpa | Aug 14 2022 6:20 utc | 94

Fascinating. Thanks for the info.

Pop-up question...
Whatever happened to those that got free trips to the UK to be trained in four weeks? Jumped ship or got on the wrong train back?

Posted by: Stonebird | Aug 14 2022 8:14 utc | 95

JohninMK 9. I too purchased Auslander’s books from him and found them a fascinating and prophetic read. He used to post regularly on the Saker but not seen anything from him for months. Sorry to hear he has experienced family losses. Do you have any news of how he is doing?

Posted by: Phil Espin | Aug 14 2022 8:24 utc | 96

An explanation from someone who has just returned from Yelenovka regarding the trajectory of HIMARS and how that correlates with what transpired. He also talks about his interviews with some of the Azov survivors. (In French).

Posted by: eyeswideopen | Aug 14 2022 8:49 utc | 97

If you know Russian, listen to Olesya Medvedeva, an Ukrainian born in Gorlovka, Donetsk Oblast. Gorlovka is still not fully liberated by the RF and allied forces. You can use subtitles to read in your language.

Posted by: rp | Aug 14 2022 8:59 utc | 98

Stonebird | Aug 14 2022 8:14 utc | 100
Re the trained in two weeks Ukrainian “just add himar” army.
Yes. It’s underway. Dima from Military Summary Channel was a guest on a yt gabfest. He started to say that someone (extended family/acquaintance/) he knew was actually in UK at that moment (at time of the discussion) undergoing the 2-week training.
It would have been fascinating and illuminating to hear more….. but that’s all he was able to say before the host and other panel participants all jumped in ….. jabbering over the top.
That’s why I have so much respect for young Jackson Hinkle as a journalist.
He asks an intelligent question then SHUTS THE FUCK UP and allows his guest to speak.
He listens, and then maybe asks a pertinent follow up question. And then SHUTS THE FUCK UP. It’s so refreshing and he’s almost in a league of his own In employing this skill.
But Dima, who was presumably invited on the panel to offer his insights, attempted to offer his insight into something I (and I’m sure *many* others wanted to hear), but nope.
He got shut down. A real missed opportunity.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Aug 14 2022 9:04 utc | 99

Trudy said he'll train nazis too.
All they do is basic training for basic terrorists on how to use explosives, mines, little drones and whatever. That's all it is, there are no soldiers coming out of them.

Posted by: rk | Aug 14 2022 9:36 utc | 100

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