Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 03, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-102

Only news & views related to the Ukraine conflict ...

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Posted by b on July 3, 2022 at 12:53 UTC | Permalink

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Posted by: Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 13:27 utc | 346


We shall have to agree to disagree!

I think that if Russia was really waging a full war against Ukraine that Lviv would already be rubble and nobody in Kiev would have food, fuel, light or internet.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 13:35 utc | 301

Aslangeo | Jul 4 2022 9:15 utc | 289
Absolute treasure. This ^ is why I come here. I would probably never have accessed this…:” Interesting interview with Dima of Military Summary you tube channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k_KfSJWF8I
Thank you.
Wow. Guy is so young. One take away: He’s asked (almost flippantly) if there’s a risk of nuclear war as a progression from the Ukrainian/ Russian conflict.
“yes”. He answers. The interviewer’s eyes dilate and he swallows.
He was not expecting that. And given how so many now place high regard on this Dima’s analysis… it’s a salutary pause.
I don’t think the EU NATO US think tankers and parts of the Pentagram believe this is likely. They are so used to “poking the bear”, they are blasé.
I see comments in other places from US.. often ex military… “Russia won’t do shit/ Russia can’t do shit”…. And the widely held view outside the rare places like MoA is that the Russians failed badly with the *Battle of Kiev*, and are continuing to fail and blunder through a *”3day*” operation that’s taking 5/6+ months.
That so few military analysts understand the Russian Donbas campaign is …. Frightening.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 4 2022 13:36 utc | 302

@341 Lucci

As far as EU (or for that matter, certain Asian countries such as Japan), that is certainly the case! North America is still partially isolated in terms of energy cost. The increase in natural gas price is relatively mild compared to elsewhere. However our industrial export industry has been dismantled already in the previous generation.

Posted by: ptb | Jul 4 2022 13:38 utc | 303

bevin @339

Of course there was a lot of support for Communism. What's not to like about a workers' paradise. But others couldn't help but notice that the first thing the Bolshewiks did after the revolution was to kill millions of people and they didn't want a repeat of that in their own country. The main reason why so many volunteers from all over Europe joined the German military in its attack on the Soviet Union wasn't because they liked Nazi ideology so much (at least I don't think they did) but because they saw it as the only hope against the Soviets. Also, Germans noticed that the Nazis had somehow been able to pull the country out of the depression, so that was another reason for their popularity. I don't think it was only the government, the military, and industrialists who supported the Nazis.

Posted by: aquileia | Jul 4 2022 13:47 utc | 304

Scorpion @326: "Are you saying that 1930's Germany - usually presented as the prime example of fascism in action I believe though they called it 'national socialism' - did not greatly elevate German working class?"

No, I am not. The issue is about who controls the economy. I'll repeat a key point that you seem to be having difficulty with: "Fascism is always a product of big business using its immense control in society (mass media, education, the arts, sports, and who gets seen and heard)"

The Soviet Union wasn't controlled by capitalist elites, and that is something the capitalist elites didn't like. Did the existence of the Soviet Union force the capitalist elites to tighten their belts and use some of their wealth to buy off portions of the working class? Sure, and that was the case as long as the Soviet Union existed. For the second half of last century many capitalists could get away with super-exploiting labor outside their "home base" national borders (Africa, Latin America, Asia) in order to raise funds to buy off portions of their domestic working classes (the so-called "middle class"), but this wasn't as readily possible for Japan and Germany as they no longer had colonial holdings to exploit. Workers in those countries ended up with a higher share of the value they produced to buy their loyalty, and that had to come at the expense of the middle class and the capitalists' lieutenants (management and C-suite workers). As a result both Japan and Germany had very compressed pay range between the shop floor and the managers' offices.

Of course, ignorant fools attribute this nod towards egalitarianism to enlightened and morally superior capitalists, but in fact those capitalists really had no choice. Their efforts to control society using fascist zombie hordes had been defeated so they had to buy time until they could try again.

No Marxist will ever say that capitalism cannot grow an economy. That notion is simple nonsense. Marxists will instead point out that capitalist control over the economy invariably introduces contradictions that unavoidably lead to crises. Crises like that which precipitated the last two world wars and that which is unfolding right now and leading inexorably to world war.

Second: are you saying that soviet communism was all benign and that if many in Europe felt they were going to be conquered by it that instead of fighting the working classes in Europe should have welcomed the take-over because Russia had shown the world how much better for the working classes their regimes were (barring a few minor glitches like famine and mass murder programs)?

Absolutely, with the exception of those imaginary things you mention that the workers' governments supposedly did.

How is capitalism working out for the Ukraine?

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 4 2022 13:51 utc | 305

"Why hasn’t the Kremlin terminated all energy flows to Europe? Why does the Kremlin sell the West the energy with which to carry on its war with Russia? JPMorganChase says if Russia cut its oil exports by five million barrels, the oil price would rise to $380 per barrel. https://www.rt.com/business/558256-jp-morgan-alarm-oil-prices/

Why doesn’t Russia do it? Europe would immediately and totally collapse. The conflict in Ukraine would instantly end. The Kremlin could tell the Europeans that energy would reappear when Europe exits NATO. As I have previously written, the Kremlin holds all the cards but is not competent to play them.

What explains this stupidity? Russian soldiers are dying and the Kremlin is supplying the enemy with energy. I believe that the problem is that the Kremlin has a mystical belief in legalism. "

Timely article on this from PCR:
https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2022/07/04/the-kremlins-hesitancy-and-prevarication-is-a-road-to-war/

Another explanation for why Russia keeps supplying energy despite all the provocations etc. is that not only is this not (yet) a full war, but actually it's a bit of a phony or contrived war. In the same sense that in WWII Exxon could keep shipping oil to Hitler for his war effort so their tankers were allowed through the Atlantic blockading fleets.

So one the ground level soldiers are fighting and dying. At mid-level there is this huge conflict in the papers every day. And at the upper level it's all business as usual... no worries mate!

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 13:55 utc | 306

Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 12:57 utc | 334
I am appreciating your arrival here at the bar, and In my view you have already made some excellent posts. |
“…. But the vax doesn't go directly into our bloodstream from the intra-muscular injection site.”.
Well. That would depend on “operator error”. There’s *enough?* anecdotal of people receiving not the intra-muscular injection, but a shot into a vein…..

Great point about the misdirects used in narrative control. First began to understand this post 9/11 with a range of *how* theories muddling the crime scene…. Distracting from… It was an inside job. Find who, then you’ll find how.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 4 2022 13:58 utc | 307

more re: Natural gas / financial impacts

Another thing I think, is how the second-tier EU members are going to react to the financial crunch, whose energy aspect is yet to peak (discussed in previous comments).

As usual, countries would use their veto in the EU governing structures, to ensure they don't get left shortchanged by relief policies. One point of concern is that this behavior might go beyond the veto of the financial relief policies, but could also include veto of de-escalation measures -- as we have already seen from Lithuania, for example. It would be unhelpful to say the least, but the motivations will be intense. German firms will lose money, but even if bankrupt, they can be taken over by other firms or creditors within their country. That won't be the case for industries of financially weaker EU countries. This is in addition to cases when the veto / blocking country is simply play-acting the part, as more of a proxy function.

I guess the point is, the crisis, in both financial and geopolitical terms, is likely to continue well beyond whenever all the major players publicly declare that they're ready to stop it.

Posted by: ptb | Jul 4 2022 14:04 utc | 308

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 4 2022 13:51 utc | 353


Thank you for your reply. I learn from all your posts although I often come away confused because I never absorbed vocabulary like communism, capitalism, fascism etc. and find the more I read about them from posts like yours the more I get confused since they seem to be used differently by different people.

One of your main thrusts is the manipulation of the working classes by the upper moreover especially in the context of Big Business Capitalists (versus antiquated feudal lord remnant 'upper clases'). I can see that.

But it seems to me that communist polities have upper classes too who live on a different plane than the common masses. They tend to throw up more authoritarian systems as well. But maybe they do indeed champion the working classes better in which case we should see them having better standards of living. In some cases they do, in others they don't. If Hitler's Germany was both fascist and socialist then I can understand neither term. And if most capitalist European countries are also partly socialist I don't really understand the difference there either.

This is not a request for you to explain. Obviously have to do my own homework. Or not. Some fields you want to penetrate into and some you want to avoid because they take too much time to master. I think - for me at least - the communist-fascist-capitalist-socialist stuff is something I'll just never be able to understand.

Finally as to the 'imaginary' massacres and famines and so forth. Fair enough. But you surely can understand that if millions of people believe such things that they might act in response and it should not be all that hard to understand why they acted in response rather than only and always attributed evil motives. That's my quarrel with this sort of thing, not who gets to finally determine which set of facts stand and which get to be labelled 'imaginary.'

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 14:06 utc | 309

I think that if Russia was really waging a full war against Ukraine that Lviv would already be rubble and nobody in Kiev would have food, fuel, light or internet.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 13:35 utc | 349
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Russia simply can't do that as, even in Lvov, there are Russians and Russian-speaking people living there. Russia will not raze Kiev either. But, RF will demilitarise Ukraine, one way or another. As a result, the NATO countries would lack the resources to wage war within NATO territory. Kiev, by the way is full of Russian speaking Ukrainians, who'd all of a sudden would become Russians, if/when RF forces would come there.

Then, the energy war is already waged against the Unfriendlies, the results will be seen around October-November...I wonder, if the routine stoppage of the two Nord Stream lines in 11th July would ever end, on the 21st July.

Posted by: ostro | Jul 4 2022 14:09 utc | 310

Posted by: ostro | Jul 4 2022 14:09 utc | 359

"Russia simply can't do that as, even in Lvov, there are Russians and Russian-speaking people living there. "

So what? Give them one week to leave then bomb it to bits so it cannot reconstitute before war's end.

Do something similar in Kiev.

If it was a real war that is.

This is not a real war. It's an extremely advanced police operation which will cost 'only' about 200,000 lives.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 14:13 utc | 311

KingsMeg #334

Posted by: Tim | Jul 4 2022 14:13 utc | 312

Melaluca@350..pure projection. That simple. A flaw in many humans is not being able to give credit, where credit is due. Especially when it's a foe.
All those who feel the Ukraine was a three day walk over, have never ever seen real combat, nor know what is required. Sore losers really.
Watch a Martynov vid, same with his detractors, sore losers, on the wrong side of history. The Ukrainians learn well from their masters, it is easier to terrify, rape, kill and bomb civilians than fight a real army, lots of vids of Ukrainians literally running away....did they hear that their women were coming to relieve them?
Maybe a QUERTY brigade would help.
It'd be sad to think a few well placed Zircons on the true decision making centres may have averted all this. Or.....guess there's always nukes.

Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 4 2022 14:15 utc | 313

KingsMeg #334

Thanks for the heads up about black propaganda. I am sure you are right. It is very difficult to know what is true. However I would like to pick up on a couple of things..

1. There is clear evidence that the Dominion systems were compromised. There was an ingenious piece of work that showed that precincts with Dominion systems showed a marked swing to democrats compared to polling data.

2. The vaccine can get into the blood if the vaccine is not administered properly by "aspirating", if the needle happens to go into a blood vessel in the muscle. This explains myocarditis.

Posted by: Tim | Jul 4 2022 14:17 utc | 314

Could be the lighting. Could be the international hours he’s keeping, making global weapon and funding appeals. Or. He could be drug affected.
https://twitter.com/colonelhomsi/status/1543711937711800320

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 4 2022 14:26 utc | 315

sad to think a few well placed Zircons on the true decision making centres may have

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 4 2022 14:15 utc | 363

---

The escalation of the war against NATO beyond Ukraine's borders should be unthinkable.

Defeating all of NATO with a limited engagement is the best outcome.

Posted by: too scents | Jul 4 2022 14:28 utc | 316

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jul 4 2022 12:14 utc | 322

Regarding the boiling frog - it is a legend. Actually when the temperature is above 25°Celsius, the frog always look for an escape...

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fable_de_la_grenouille

Trust me, I'm a frog as well!

Posted by: un còp èra | Jul 4 2022 14:42 utc | 317

Furthermore, in Weimar Germany, when no jobs were to be had, it truly was a miracle that Hitler and the NSDAP were able to revitalize so quickly its economy, sidestepping western finance, and with no union help. Heh. Go figure.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jul 4 2022 2:26 utc | 217

This is not true at all!

Western finance was instrumental in the rise of Germany as were many Western corporations during this period.

Antony Sutton showed the key role Wall Street played in the rise of Hitler.

Posted by: Down South | Jul 4 2022 14:53 utc | 318

...but to rationalize fascism with elegant trains of thought and eloquence does not make it for me. Big business, elites, class, racial theories and all sorts of evil dressed in fancy clothing and patriotic symbols and tunes won't erase the evil consequences of such a system...

Posted by: Paco | Jul 4 2022 13:06 utc | 337

Fascism, properly defined, is the alliance of government and corporations against the average citizen. The difference between the current budding versions and the version of the past century which you describe is:
a) Fascism now has a friendly face
b) Technology makes propaganda and isolating/infiltrating dissident forces easier
c) MMT (magic money tree) makes it easier to control the proles.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Jul 4 2022 14:56 utc | 319

Make an argument which can stand on its own!

Posted by: Vick | Jul 4 2022 14:54 utc | 369

---

An engagement where NATO sends its limited treasure into Ukraine to be destroyed is sufficient to end the Atlantic alliance.

Posted by: too scents | Jul 4 2022 14:58 utc | 320

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 14:13 utc | 361
-----------
You've not lived in the USSR, have you?

Posted by: ostro | Jul 4 2022 15:00 utc | 321

Posted by: too scents | Jul 4 2022 14:58 utc | 372
----------------------
Or, the US of A becomes the Divided States...😏

Posted by: ostro | Jul 4 2022 15:02 utc | 322

Australian (new) PM Albanese was a guest at NATO and then had a side tour “surprise” visit to Ukraine.
Zelensky greeted him wearing the ubiquitous green t-shirt, but with a special kangaroo and Ukraine patch.
The patch would be a clue the visit was planned at least far enough ahead to have this manufactured.
From twitter:
The Kyiv Independent. @KyivIndependent
Australia to provide $100 million in military, technical aid to Ukraine.
Australian PM Anthony Albanese said during a briefing with President Volodymyr Zelensky in Kyiv on July 3 that Australia is ready to continue supporting Ukraine as long as it takes to win the war.
> Albanese reiterated Australia's plan to give Ukraine 14 armored personnel carriers and 20 Bushmaster armored vehicles.
§>>Thread comment: [ukraine flag] Aussies can do better here. [can see how Ukrainians are likely to wear out their welcome in EU with these attitudes of gratitude]

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 4 2022 15:16 utc | 323

@Vick & Gabriel et al.

Your tone and agression does not fit at this board. I am all for discussion but you are not doing it in good faith. So I will just ignore you now although I am always up for opposing views.

Posted by: alek_a | Jul 4 2022 15:26 utc | 324

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 14:06 utc | 358

But it seems to me that communist polities have upper classes too who live on a different plane than the common masses.

Of course they had privileges but unlike their western counterparts those privileges did not belong to them, they could not sell, inherit, mortgage or trade their luxury apartments and dachas, that was the main reason why the disappearance of the USSR was a revolution from above, the party elite wanted to own the stuff, to travel freely, to shop in the west freely, and finally they got it when the whole edifice came down, but not for long, a new class appeared and their luxury apartments with views to the Kremlin were acquired sometimes by killing the former inhabitants by the new class of mafia criminal oligarchy. There is a film that illustrates the above, Старые Клячи, Old Nags, see if you can find it with subtitles, comedy with a lot of laughs and tears.

Posted by: Paco | Jul 4 2022 15:29 utc | 325

Again, I'm not a doctor or researcher. Components of the vax require active transport to move out of the muscle and into the bloodstream. Except that's what our immune system does, it recognizes foreign bodies, envelopes them in transporter cells, and moves them into the bloodstream. But that's not going to move a nanobot or a graphene oxide 'razor blade'; those would be so foreign that our immune response would never be activated, so they would dissolve in situ or remain where they are.

Posted by: Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 14:05 utc | 357

The rat study available at the following link indicated that detectable quantities of lipid nanoparticles from the Pfizer vaccine were in numerous organs within hours of injection into a muscle.

https://www.docdroid.net/xq0Z8B0/pfizer-report-japanese-government-pdf

I didn't find this surprising, being that immune system components aren't all that the blood carries away from cells.

Posted by: David Levin | Jul 4 2022 15:30 utc | 326

You've not lived in the USSR, have you?

Posted by: ostro | Jul 4 2022 15:00 utc | 373


Nope. You haven't lived in a Russia at full-blown war either.

This was a minor point in a post a while back and if you don't agree that's fine. I think that if this was a full-blown war the SMO would be conducted differently; you (and others) feel this already is a war and is being conducted exactly the right way it should be.

Fine. It's not a big deal either way.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 15:31 utc | 327

Down South@368
What Nemesis knows about German history is negligible. What he can do is propagandise on behalf of fascism.
As you say western finance and Wall Street in particular poured money into German investments, the cases of General Motors (Opel) and Ford being notorious.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 4 2022 15:33 utc | 328

Posted by: Paco | Jul 4 2022 15:29 utc | 380
----------------------
Lovely film, Старые Клячи...

Posted by: ostro | Jul 4 2022 15:35 utc | 329

Posted by: Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 14:57 utc | 371

"I do not believe it explains myocarditis, because it seems that an actual majority of recipients experienced some level of sub-clinical myocardia from the injections. How many were injected directly into a vein, less than 1% certainly? I believe it explains the immediate reactions to the vax, like anaphylactic shock or coma within seconds or minutes."

Am no doctor but myocarditis things look like chronic inflammatory conditions which always involve immune system impairment. But there is also a blood element it seems in what the Chinese would refer to as the Heart-Kidney matrix. But immune system stuff shows up all over the place affecting different people in different ways. There are also many neurological nasties frequently reported.

It's a nasty business and no mistake. And the worst is the degree of complacency in the professional and lay populations. The West has already collapsed; we just don't know it yet. (Another reason why there won't be a real war - our side is not capable of waging one. And even if we did, half of 'us' would be rooting for 'us' to lose.)

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 15:37 utc | 330

Старые Клячи... https://youtu.be/B_V8yF0stm4

Posted by: ostro | Jul 4 2022 15:39 utc | 331

Posted by: Paco | Jul 4 2022 15:29 utc | 333

"but not for long, a new class appeared and their luxury apartments with views to the Kremlin were acquired sometimes by killing the former inhabitants by the new class of mafia criminal oligarchy. There is a film that illustrates the above, Старые Клячи, Old Nags, see if you can find it with subtitles, comedy with a lot of laughs and tears."

Thank you. Very interesting, though I suspect there was more continuity than you describe albeit the entire communist attempt went through so many convulsions and then collapse so rapidly that it's hard to say either way. Putin, for example, was elevated by several movers and shakers in the background, right? (An oligarch whom he later pushed out and so forth, but also quite a few others no doubt...)

I wonder if this is also true in China that there isn't inherited status, that everyone starts equal (which is what you are implying, no?). That sounds pretty good though some of the more artful aspects of civilizational culture will suffer perhaps. It's not always a terrible thing to hand down skills, including leadership skills, from one generation to another, or to build a nice property with working farm or business and hand it on. A middle way must be found always, and I suspect the emerging multipolar initiative is going to deliberately attempt to find one.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 15:47 utc | 332

"...Personally, I don’t credit them [Nazi party] for turning things around, because AFAICT that was financed from the outside..."


Posted by: dfg | Jul 4 2022 11:24 utc | 315

My thought is, dfg, that the population was primed to see them positively because of the punitive regime Germany was under after WW1 - at least that is what I vaguely remember having been said. You can see the same effect (more positive though) for the Russian population after they'd endured the decay of the previous regime plus additional attempt to ruin by the Chicago boys - they too were primed to support the new guy, Putin, who was able to bring positive change. A long hard slog, but Russia didn't perish then and won't now. People power does that. It lifts someone like Hitler, like Obama, or if we get it right, (do a lot of praying,) Putin.

Obama had that support but he criminally ignored it. He was after the big bucks, simple as that. He ignored federal funding of his campaign, danced with the rich guys from the getgo. And it has gotten worse ever since. That's the only 'tell' for politicians in future in the US. If you want somebody honest, they have to shun the handouts. There's always a price to pay. Read Molly Ivins, if she hasn't been burned. She was one of the good guys.

Posted by: juliania | Jul 4 2022 15:48 utc | 333

But the vax doesn't go directly into our bloodstream from the intra-muscular injection site. So it can't flood your bloodstream with nanotech robots or micro-tracking chips or any of the similar claims I've seen. Some of the stories are black propaganda, and it's really hard to tell the difference without studying the underlying biology. But spreading these stories harms the anti-(mRNA)-vax movement, as intended.

Posted by: Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 12:57 utc | 334

I was with you until stated what is bolded. I think you are wrong.

https://regenerativemc.com/biodistribution-of-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine/

The nano-bots stuff requires data and I have not seen anything solid.

Additionally, Pfizer's attempt to hide data for 75 yrs. does not give me ANY CONFIDENCE in the "magic elixer".

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/healthcare/judge-scraps-75-year-timeline-for-fda-to-release-pfizer-vaccine-safety-data-giving-agency-eight-months

By the way, the Long Term Effect studies ARE NOT DONE YET !!!!
Yet we get this News,
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fda-future-framework-covid-vaccines/

Posted by: Tom_12 | Jul 4 2022 15:50 utc | 334

(Another reason why there won't be a real war - our side is not capable of waging one. And even if we did, half of 'us' would be rooting for 'us' to lose.)

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 15:37 utc | 331

More than half, I think, Scorpion. Way more, and growing. Russia is going a limited way, with boots on the ground. Not something you or I ever wanted to see. But the more who do, the sooner it ends.

Posted by: juliania | Jul 4 2022 15:55 utc | 335

Reuters is reporting that Ukraine has raised its flag again on Snake Island........winning, winning, winning

Americans are waking up but I am not sure what will become of that.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 4 2022 15:56 utc | 336

As ever, an excellent post by bevin@335.

I agree entirely with his analysis but am somewhat pessimistic about the probable response of working people to the depression, intentionally created to increase unemployment. I’m speaking only of the UK where I’m resident, but so pervasive is the ruling ideology and at the same time so low is the political consciousness of working people, that I’m fearful that that minority will back the guaranteed state suppression that exists and will be intensified should we have a “gilets jaune” movement.

Recognising that the depression is an opportunity for working people to rise off their knees and hang their oppressors from the nearest lampposts, this presupposes a political consciousness that I fear isn’t there. All I hear, unfortunately, are working people talking of how great the fat fraud Johnson did with Covid and how Churchill-like he is in sticking it to Putin.

Still, I live in eternal hope that I’m wrong.

By the way, thanks to bevin for his literate, perceptive and interesting posts.

Posted by: Vragtes | Jul 4 2022 15:57 utc | 337

There is no doubt that the CV vaccine does not prevent repeated CV infections/illness.

There is no doubt that the shot produces an inflammatory response.

Many are predisposed to Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome (CIRS) - a debilitating biotoxin-triggered immune dysfunction disorder.

A series of tests for CIRS should be performed by a medical doctor before receiving the vaccine.

Some of the markers for CIRS are night sweats, sexual dysfunction, red eyes, blurred vision, color blindness, having had Lyme disease.

https://www.drelenaklimenko.com
/diagnosing-cirs-complete-guide-testing/

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Jul 4 2022 15:57 utc | 338

"Why doesn’t Russia do it? Europe would immediately and totally collapse. The conflict in Ukraine would instantly end. The Kremlin could tell the Europeans that energy would reappear when Europe exits NATO. As I have previously written, the Kremlin holds all the cards but is not competent to play them.

What explains this stupidity? Russian soldiers are dying and the Kremlin is supplying the enemy with energy. I believe that the problem is that the Kremlin has a mystical belief in legalism. "

Another explanation for why Russia keeps supplying energy despite all the provocations etc. is that not only is this not (yet) a full war, but actually it's a bit of a phony or contrived war.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 13:55 utc | 354

Assorted MoA posters have noted that Russia's objectives of the SMO include denazification and demilitarization, which would entail extending the conflict (with respect to both area and time).

Posted by: David Levin | Jul 4 2022 16:02 utc | 339

@Tom_12 #336

I was with you until stated what is bolded. I think you are wrong.

https://regenerativemc.com/biodistribution-of-pfizer-covid-19-

vaccine/

I've been following the biodistribution data for some time. The key is in the time factors given:

over 48 hours, distribution was mainly observed to liver, adrenal glands, spleen and ovaries, with maximum concentrations observed at 8-48 hours post-dose.

Why 48 hours? Because the components of the vax are being moved via an active transport mechanism. If it were moving directly into the bloodstream from the injection, for example by dissolving in our plasma, that would blanket the entire body within a few minutes. An intramuscular injection of morphine takes effect in about 10 minutes, I know from experience.

The vax is transported from the injection site via our immune system's transport cells like macrophages. One of our autoimmune problems caused by the vax is that as the macrophages try to enclose the whole nanolipid envelope, the envelopes pierce the macrophages and deliver their mRNA payload into macrophages, resulting in colonized macrophages entering our bloodstream and growing spikes on their surface that then break off in our bloodstream instead of at the injection site like we were told. This appears to be what causes myocardia and blood clotting, since the spike has an affinity for the lining of our blood vessels, etc. The fragments of the now broken nanolipid envelope then float around in our blood and accumulate in ovaries, testes and liver, causing the reproductive system dysfunction we've seen.

Again, I am not an expert on this, I just read stuff and try to rewrite in plain English.

Posted by: Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 16:13 utc | 340

a few salient points...

without the time stamp the number of a post means nothing.... on top of that, a number of posts have been deleted, which is probably for the better...

is this the vax topic, or the ukrainian topic?

about the war, or non war.... i think it depends on ones perspective how they describe what is taking place with regard to ukraine today... on the one hand the usa is on record saying they must defeat russia in ukraine, and on the other russia refers to this operation as a 'special military operation'... so - i can see both... the west is at war with russia for all intents and purposes, even if they don't openly state this.. i am sure they would like things to be going differently too...

russia has not done what the usa-uk would do here... yes, the west would bomb the shit out of everything that moved.... so we have people who say russia is not doing it the way they want -or the way they like when the usa-uk do it....

the way i see it, this whole thing - whatever you call it - is going to go on for quite some time and the west under usa-uk leadership are not going to stop, until they basically fade away, which is going to take some time here...

also - things could go wrong and unexpected developments could happen, on the upside or downside... predicting outcomes is a fools game... it is a mistake to let ones idealism replace realism...

Posted by: james | Jul 4 2022 16:19 utc | 341

@juliania 226
@Paul Greenwood 233

Year Amount (tons) %

1941 360,778. 2.1
1942 2,453,097 14
1943 4,794,545 27.4
1944 6,217,622 35.5
1945 3,673,819 21
Total 17,499,861 100 (Wikipedia)

Lend Lease was helpful but not critical in defeating Germany.

The first significant aid to arrive in the USSR was the PQ1 convoy, which departed Hvalfjörður on September 29, 1942, arrived at Arkhangelsk on October 11, 1942, meaning that goods from the convoy only arrived at the front in February 1943, long after Project Uranus, the Soviet Red Army's 19–23 November 1942 strategic counter-offensive operation which ultimately lead to the surrender of the remnants of the German Sixth Army and Italian Right Army on 2 February 1943. The first US aircraft, a Douglas C-47 Skytrain transport aircraft with serial number 42-32892, to reach the USSR, was only handed to the Soviet Air force in Fairbanks, Alaska, on March 12, 1943, before being flown the 5,650 kilometers to Krasnoyarsk, Siberia. Like the heavy bombers which the Soviets repeatedly requested, but were never supplied, transport aircraft would have been really helpful before then.

Posted by: Hermit | Jul 4 2022 16:25 utc | 342

"Russia simply can't do that as, even in Lvov, there are Russians and Russian-speaking people living there. "

So what? Give them one week to leave then bomb it to bits so it cannot reconstitute before war's end.

Do something similar in Kiev.

If it was a real war that is.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 14:13 utc | 313

Remind me not to vote for you to be a president.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 4 2022 16:27 utc | 343

TY James now @ 343...

Reminding thread topic as well as quibbles over the word "war"

Posted by: crone | Jul 4 2022 16:27 utc | 344

is this the vax topic, or the ukrainian topic?

My apologies, my initial response to someone was about propaganda, but I used the vax and election fraud as examples, and people responded to those instead of the propaganda part which is relevant to Ukraine. I guess most agree on the prevalence of propaganda.

Posted by: Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 16:28 utc | 345


There is another aspect to public policies regarding the “novel virus” — now mutating at ever greater speed due to high prevalence, except in China — which in this round of discussion has gone as yet unmentioned.

The collective West’s vaccination only policy eliminated, erased, cancelled preventive and early treatment remedies used by experienced clinicians, treatments which cost little to nothing to employ, ensuring viral spread, worst outcomes and, not least, high profit margins to pharmaceuticals.

While ordinary people were oppressed and harmed with guaranteed-to-fail partial lockdowns, experimental for-profit risky vaccines, and general social chaos, psychological and financial, the blob grew ever more powerful in its ability to harm regular people and societies.

If early treatments had been allowed to be recognized, the vaccines’ emergency use recommendation would have been denied, that is if existing law had prevailed.

Posted by: suzan | Jul 4 2022 16:29 utc | 346

TY @ 345

Posted by: crone | Jul 4 2022 16:29 utc | 347

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 4 2022 13:36 utc | 304

Paraphrasing Dima he believes that Ukraine is holding back their best troops until they get the big money from US.

So they recruit women, the elderly and the disabled as placeholders/cannon fodder.

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Jul 4 2022 16:30 utc | 348

@ Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 16:28 utc | 347

its all good.. near the end of these types of threads, this tends to happen... the whole thing gets scattered and directed all sorts of ways, but the classic 2 ways for the past few years are - covid and marxism, communism, or whatever you want to call it! i noticed some of your posts on covid were deleted by b... here is one example where scorpion is addressing you - @ Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 14:57 utc | 371 - there is no post from you @ 1457 utc... aside from all the troll posts earlier in the thread that b deleted, he deleted some others like this one too..

thanks crone.... shit happens.

Posted by: james | Jul 4 2022 16:33 utc | 349

NemesisCalling @217

Furthermore, in Weimar Germany, when no jobs were to be had, it truly was a miracle that Hitler and the NSDAP were able to revitalize so quickly its economy, sidestepping western finance, and with no union help. Heh. Go figure.

Hitlers system of finance is shrouded in mystery. He basically bypassed the international monetary system. He created a public works system to put people back to work by issuing non-inflationary bills of exchange, called Labor Treasury Certificates. These bills are what the workers were paid in. He basically founded a medium of exchange founded on the productive capacity of people, not gold or any other instrument.

He said, was taught, was led, or was instructed, I do not know if he was actually that smart..

"We were not foolish enough to try to make a currency [backed by] gold of which we had none, but for every mark that was issued we required the equivalent of a mark's worth of work done or goods produced. . . .we laugh at the time our national financiers held the view that the value of a currency is regulated by the gold and securities lying in the vaults of a state bank."

I think it was Hjalmar Schacht that taught the Nazis to abandon the English economic theory. In other words, Germany issued debt-free and interest-free money from 1935 on.

For international trade they moved to a barter system. Of course, under the transfer agreement they looted Jewish wealth by offering some to leave under very favorable conditions to Germany. Sort of like what Spain did to the Jews when they kicked them out.

Loans to buy stock were outlawed along with many other favorable regulations to kill the classic speculative economy of finance

To fiance rearmament he created MEFO bills held by a dummy company called Metallurgische Forschungsgesellschaft. They were basically short term letters of credit that could be resold to the bank at favorable conditions.

All this is also similar to the greenback spent into circulation by Lincoln as he did not want to borrow money at usurious rates to pay for the civil war. After his assassination the greenbacks were withdrawn from circulation. This caused a massive downturn in the economy. Silver is another story. Mined and minted into circulation, that was killed off as well causing great economic destruction.

This type of money allegedly appeared for a short time under JFK. These United States Notes were to issued directly by the US Treasury and spent into circulation not borrowed into circulation like our fiat system. His dad was very familiar with Hitlers system of fiance. Some say this was the proximate cause of his death.

All and all it is a complex and lightly studied system. Very little is written on this subject. Who is behind the levers of power to shroud all this in mystery? Who knows. One thing I do know, their system of finance is destructive to a persons life essence and it the under the power of a small group of people.

Posted by: circumspect | Jul 4 2022 16:34 utc | 350

Note: I am not advocating for one side over the other rather against those who do, painting one side as angelic and the other as demonic with anything the latter have said or done is pure evil.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 12:36 utc | 281

Apologies, I am working backwards this morning. Excellent post, Scorpion.

Posted by: juliania | Jul 4 2022 16:34 utc | 351

This has pompeus to say, some quotes:
(first in his class at West Point, an editor of the Harvard Law Review, and cofounded Thayer Aerospace, before entering politics)

Nine American presidents dismembered the Soviet Empire at enormous great human costs, to allow it to even begin to be reconstitution unthinkable.

It is my conviction that America and the West must acknowledge the centrality of hydrocarbon energy to the world geopolitics

NATO solidarity is essential Germany and France must not defer to any of the Kremlin’s wishes.

China’s Belt and Road Initiative is a form of imperialism. It is the manifestation of a corrupt intent to entrap less developed countries with promises of loans and infrastructure improvements.

the United States must help in building of the three lighthouses for liberty. .. Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan. linking these three bastions with NATO, as well as the new and expanded security framework for the Indo-Pacific will form a global alliance for freedom. This will benefit America.

Projecting?

Posted by: gary | Jul 4 2022 16:36 utc | 352

Posted by: Vragtes | Jul 4 2022 15:57 utc | 339

Lacking his encyclopedic knowledge and depth of experience, nevertheless I disagree with many of his core tenets, such as the one that the communists in Russia had nothing to do with large-scale famines and massacres which didn't even actually happen apparently. But I too echo your following:

"By the way, thanks
to bevin for his literate, perceptive and interesting posts."

Knowledge is a two-edged blade: if you go down a false piste or form a particular bias it becomes very hard to relearn if new facts or situations make that necessary or be able to understand different or opposing points of view without devolving into an 'I'm right and this is the truth' versus 'you're wrong and you spout only falsehoods' syndromes.

There are situations where one side is clearly 'right' and the other is clearly 'wrong' but these are very, very rare.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 16:37 utc | 353

There is no virus. There is only mass-hysteria and killer injections. Horrific as a WWIII might be, it probably wouldn’t kill as many as the effects of panic, despair and the so-called vaccines will.

Posted by: Dale | Jul 4 2022 16:39 utc | 354

@ Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 16:28 utc | 347

its all good.. near the end of these types of threads, this tends to happen... the whole thing gets scattered and directed all sorts of ways, but the classic 2 ways for the past few years are - covid and marxism, communism, or whatever you want to call it! i noticed some of your posts on covid were deleted by b... here is one example where scorpion is addressing you - @ Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 14:57 utc | 371 - there is no post from you @ 1457 utc... aside from all the troll posts earlier in the thread that b deleted, he deleted some others like this one too..

thanks crone.... shit happens.

Posted by: james | Jul 4 2022 16:33 utc | 351

Looks like my initial black propaganda post that so many responded to is gone. I'm not going to draw any conclusions about that for now.

Posted by: Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 16:39 utc | 355

Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 16:28 utc | 347

The blob is multifaceted in its banal, macabre splendor.

Posted by: suzan | Jul 4 2022 16:40 utc | 356

Welcome to Pompous Pompeo's Lighthouses for Liberty:

Same as CIA GHW Bush's Thousand Points of Light.

In other words, you get nothing.

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Jul 4 2022 16:41 utc | 357

Other than denazification and demilitarisation of Ukraine, the economy of the Ukraine is rapidly collapsing. That collapse is showing in the economies of the Unfriendlies, even though at the moment the ruling elites of the Unfriendlies are hiding it from their citizens. Energy and fuel is a weapon that RF is using and it is not that interesting to Russia how much it earns from the Unfriendlies for fuel and energy, but how much Russia can hurt the economies of those unfriendlies by not letting them have that fuel and energy. The chances are that the unfriendlies won't be able to fill the gas and coal storages for the winter. Let's see where the unfriendlies be after the 21st July...

Posted by: ostro | Jul 4 2022 16:44 utc | 358

Posted by: Joe | Jul 3 2022 13:35 utc | 4

The Himars that have been given to Ukraine, so far 4 units have been delivered are equipped with misslies with 70 km range. In the Donbas area the Russian air defense is so dense Ukraine can't even fly war with a small commercial drone. GPS is jammed, Russia has Electronic warfare, satellites, spy planes above, 3 AWACS, LASER airdefense. HImars will probably be detected before it enters the donbass theathere, but as soon as it fires only 1 of those 3 meter long Missiles the Awacs will pick it up immediately and Russian airforce is gonna take it out within 10 minutes with SU 34 Fullback or SU 57 Felon, If Himars does not immediately move to another location after it has fired it will be taken out by Iskander M balistic missile within 20 seconds

Posted by: Jimy | Jul 4 2022 16:46 utc | 359

Pompous Pompeo's multipolar world:

Israel, Taiwan, Ukraine, and the USA.

What? no Saudi Arabia? That's a Lighthouse too.

On its way to BRICs.

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Jul 4 2022 16:46 utc | 360

@ juliania | Jul 4 2022 15:48 utc

Grazie.

Posted by: dfg | Jul 4 2022 16:51 utc | 361

The whole SMO is to kick the ass of the US of A and the USD. One should go back in time and read/listen to what Putin said, from around September 2021. To make this world a multi-polar world, get rid of the USD as the reserve currency...and, isolate US of A.

Posted by: ostro | Jul 4 2022 16:54 utc | 362

"...Of course they had privileges but unlike their western counterparts those privileges did not belong to them, they could not sell, inherit, mortgage or trade their luxury apartments and dachas..."

Posted by: Paco | Jul 4 2022 15:29 utc | 327

Not quite true. Privileged elites in most communist countries established themselves as the new "communist bourgeoisie" and exercised their influence by installing their kin in positions of power in all walks of life, politics, management even culture. It is true that during communist rule they could not sell their luxuries, but as soon as privatization started during 1990s, most of them, or their children, managed to purchase their villas, apartments etc. for peanuts.

But benefiting from trade in stolen (nationalized) luxuries was not the most troubling consequence of the transition from communism to capitalism. Rather it was the fact the "communist bourgeois" networks survived and blossomed in the transitional period. The political and social influence built during this period was passed on to the next generation and continues to be passed even today.

While cronyism and nepotism is not a particular feature of communist societies only, as we see all around the world, the level of hypocrisy among the communist elites was unmatched. Someone mentioned that the communist practice of propagation of privileges to one's own friends and kin is most similar to today's wokism in the West. Paths to successful carriers are based on 'who you are' not on 'how good are you in what you do.'

Posted by: Pagan | Jul 4 2022 16:56 utc | 363


That said, am looking forward to Putins explanation of how he sees the new polycentric world order working in practice. He may not be a Saint but he still might be a truly great world statesman leading us out of trenches we have all been mired in since long before 1913....

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 11:43 utc | 273

And again, thanks, Scorpion! This is why I went very slowly through a discussion of "The Master and Margarita" which was written during the Stalinist regime and not published until 1966. It has a cult following in Russia still. The epigraph, front page significant phrase, is from Goethe:

To the question "Who are you?" being posed by Faust, Satan in the guise of Mephistopheles responds:

"I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good."

Russians do know that complexity, that life-fusion; it is in their deepest sensibility that such is life as it must be lived and even celebrated. So it is also in classical German writing. What is basic is not the evil, however dastardly it presents itself, and will present itself in future; what is basic is the good.

Even the Greek playwrights knew it: Sing sorrow, sorrow; but good win out in the end. That's not just a hope, though we, sunk to the very depths at times, forget it; that is what happens. It's the light separated from the darkness; evening then morning, one day, which in Genesis precedes the heat of the sun.

Posted by: juliania | Jul 4 2022 17:02 utc | 364

Sure, trolls are a plenty, but I expect b will get rid of them eventually, meanwhile my fellow dear barflies do not despair (my opinion):
Russia has got full control of achieving its objectives in Ukrostan, the mighty Soviet Army (sorry go carried away) Russian army will douse that fire slowly and firmly, trying to save as many lives on both sides as possible. Win the minds and hearts of the people and victory is yours. Just look back at what Fidel and Che achieved. (Bless their souls).
So maybe in some time it will be salonfahig (sorry not that thingie on my keyboard) to marry a nice looking Ukrainian woman (and they are charming, blush) without the neighbours pointing fingers and wispering " Bought wife". Time will tell.
On a side note : Swedes in general care F**k all about Nato, they are disconnected from it in a peculiar way. I have returned to Denmark after 18 years in Sweden, I already feel more free. :D
Anyways I have dual nationality, not that it matters much, I am a Scandinavian, we can do almost as we please, just like in the good old days:
Viking Olaf :Rape all the men and kill all the women!!
Viking Thirsty: You mean kill all the men and rape the women..
Viking Olaf: I do it my way, you do it yours!

Cheers guys!

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Jul 4 2022 17:09 utc | 365

One thing I find interesting in the SMO is despite the failures on the Ukrainian side, the military incompetence hasn't affected the USD/Ukrainian exchange rate. (I only now learned that the Ukrainian unit of currency is called the Hryvnia). Since near the end of April, the Hryvina has been very steady, trading at about 29.5 UAH to 1 USD. You'd think with the absolute dogs mess of Ukraine the UAH would be a lot less stable than it is today.

The strength of the ruble doesn't surprise me. Before the war it was hanging around at 75 RUB to 1 USD, then with the aggressive sanctions it dropped to 135 RUB to 1 USD at about March 1st. Ever since then, the RUB has picked up speed in strength and is at a rate of 55.4 RUB to 1 USD. The last time the RUB was this strong against the USD was 2014.

Maybe a person better schooled in economics than I am (what I know could be written on an index card) can explain the first phenomenon; perhaps the following explains the second:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-ukraine-ruble-currency-russian-economy-sanctioms-2022/

Posted by: Ursula Zandt | Jul 4 2022 17:10 utc | 366

bevin @ 330

You are right about the Wall Street connections to Nazi industrialists. The Dulles brothers law firm, Sullivan and Cromwell, had many connections to German businesses. Allen Dulles, the CIA Dulles, used his new power after WWII to protect and the nurture, as much as he could, the remnants of his pre-war German connections. Couple this with anticommunist/Soviet ideology and you you get Operation Paperclip, Gladio, and the slew of rehabilitated Nazis in positions of power throughout post-war Germany.

Posted by: Objective Observer | Jul 4 2022 17:14 utc | 367

Re: biodistribution of vaccines

I really cannot claim to have a full grasp of the matter (not even close), but I know one thing: regarding the uptake of anything injected into a muscle (including any vaccine), the very first thing to take into account is not the blood stream as a circulatory system, but the lymphatic system. That's where the magic happens, and right at the beginning, before any substance or particles might enter the blood stream.

Posted by: Scotch Bingeington | Jul 4 2022 17:15 utc | 368

Posted by: ianMoone | Jul 4 2022 13:18 utc | 296

Thank you, I'm very glad to see it's online again

Posted by: Vintage Red | Jul 4 2022 17:15 utc | 369

Pompeo cited: China’s Belt and Road Initiative is a form of imperialism.

Posted by: gary | Jul 4 2022 16:36 utc | 354

Typical misunderstanding, or Gary plays cute. Words have meaning in CONTEXT. Here the context was marshaling various reason why China is not only bad, but very bad. As we know from Aristotle in Ancient Greece, each political system has an OK form and a degenerate form. Thus
OK: democracy
degenerate: ochlocracy
OK: monarchy
degenerate: tyranny
OK: aristocracy (the rule of the "best", e.g. Aristotle was the best the)
degenerate: oligarchy (the rule of the"few", random chaps of mediocre quality)
And this does not exhaust all possible political system, so we need to add an appendix:
OK: fascism as practiced by forebears of Chista Freehand and similarly inspided folks today
degenerate: Canadian truckers
OK: imperialism (like invasions or debt traps) as practiced by USA
degenerate: imperialism as practiced by everybody else.

I must admit that the case of imperialism requires some care. Suppose that Australia or Israel keeps some nations in debt traps or invade. Is it degenerate? No, because it is not really imperialism: it has a chain of deference involving USA, e.g. Australia defers to USA, and fill the blanks for {USA, Israel}. So it is not like Australia usurps imperial prerogatives, and neither does Israel. And no one so astute as to read MoonOfAlabama would think that there is a chain of deference from China to USA.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 4 2022 17:16 utc | 370

Kingsmeg @ 347

The only thing we know is the covid propaganda..

Records are not being kept. There is no data. Data analysis never happens.

Best info I've encountered is from Mike Yeadon and his colleagues with hands-on experience producing biologics. Ten billion doses were not put in arms because there is no capacity anywhere to manufacture them. The people who know how to manufacture are not working overtime or being called out of retirement. Most get saline. Those who get a live shot are subjects of scattershot and manifold experiments.

With simple new compounds it takes two years to set up a production line and be certain the factory version is same as the bench made version used in the clinical trials, the product is uniform, the dosage is uniform. With biologics it takes five years. This is just to make the stuff reliably. The clinical trials also take years. EUAs are intended for drugs to be used by small numbers of patients with rare diseases facing certain death.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 4 2022 17:18 utc | 371

OK: pointing to a possible typing mistake
degenerate: changing the text when you are not looking

Aristo- means best in Ancient Greek, so Aristotle means "best tle", not the "best the". Nevertheless, we must put up with autocorrect, I guess it is a feature approved by the Lords of MoonOfAlabama.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 4 2022 17:22 utc | 372

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 4 2022 17:22 utc | 374

Autocorrect, IIRC, is done by your browser, not the site. Somewhere in the preferences/settings there is usually a way to turn it off, which is what I do. I generally turn most of the "helpful" stuff off (like, kill it dead) first thing.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 4 2022 17:28 utc | 373

Posted by: juliania | Jul 4 2022 17:02 utc | 366

"What is basic is not the evil, however dastardly it presents itself, and will present itself in future; what is basic is the good."

Indeed. In the oldest and most fruitional Tibetan Buddhist School (Nyingmas = Old Ones; doctrine features dzogchen = Ultimate/Final/Original Great/Vast/Space) the iconography features a male-female deity in union called Kunto Zangpo which basically means All-Good.

The creation / collective dream realm we are now all sharing and co-creating is fundamentally, basically good. Good to the core, good ab initio. Some translate the notion simply as 'basic goodness.'

All the great traditions start and end on this point one way or another. Simply because it is true. It is not 'objectively' or factually true - things which materialists obsess over unnecessarily - but primordially, spiritually and above all experientially true.

You have inspired me to read Margaret and the Master. It is on the waiting list. First we build the house. Then we move in the furniture. Then Scorpion reads!!!

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 17:28 utc | 374

Kingsmeg @ 347
Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 4 2022 17:18 utc | 373

What has Covid got to do with the SMO in th eUkraine, by the way? That's a US (and the puppies) problem, that is, the Pfizer vax and other western vax. Russia didn't use any of the "western" vaccines...

Posted by: ostro | Jul 4 2022 17:29 utc | 375

@aquileia 306

Your stunning acceptance of propaganda in place of actual history leads you far astray from reality.

Communism's principal virtue is that it avoids the Six Great Thefts of Capitalism. See https://www.greanvillepost.com/2021/09/13/the-six-great-thefts-of-capitalism/

For a brief summary of the actual history of the USSR, see https://bit.ly/USSR-Nutshell The USSR in a Nutshell: A Brief History of the Rise and Destruction of the Soviet Union and What Happens Next.


And for the lies about the USSR having "murdered millions" before WW II, see http://bit.ly/LiesAboutUSSR “Lies Concerning the History of the Soviet Union”

Posted by: Hermit | Jul 4 2022 17:31 utc | 376

Posted by: Pagan | Jul 4 2022 16:56 utc | 365

"While cronyism and nepotism is not a particular feature of communist societies only, as we see all around the world, the level of hypocrisy among the communist elites was unmatched."

No doubt many won't agree with that. But in any case, one of the greatest challenges of any polity is the efficacy with which it can handle corruption. There will always be a certain quotient. How is it handled? Can it be perceived? And if perceived can it be nipped in the bud? And if it is not and begins to take over can it be dislodged, banished? The corrupting elements are always aware of the norms and always strive to undermine and outfox them using cunning and deceit.

So it has always been and so it will always be.

Great leaders and cultures promote the good whilst also remaining open-minded enough to see evil. And if you can see evil you see those aspects of yourself which can respond and behave similarly. Good people relate with evil people without becoming evil in turn. I guess in the end it's a civilizational art form in which all members of any given society participate.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 17:35 utc | 377

TKingsmeg @ 347
Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 4 2022 17:18 utc | 373

What has Covid got to do with the SMO in th eUkraine, by the way? That's a US (and the puppies) problem, that is, the Pfizer vax and other western vax. Russia didn't use any of the "western" vaccines...

Posted by: ostro | Jul 4 2022 17:29 utc | 377

My original point was about recognizing different types of propaganda. The Ukraine war is being fought primarily on the propaganda front. I used election fraud and the vax as examples.

Posted by: Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 17:39 utc | 378

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 4 2022 17:16 utc | 372

"I must admit that the case of imperialism requires some care."

I think imperialism is more of a condition than an -ism. It's what happens when one polity comprises several different nations or peoples and yet is something which contains both. No doubt there are ways of doing this well or poorly but probably this has more to do with pragmatism since any given Empire comprising multiple peoples is going to be unique.

Oh, and if I were President then Russia would NEVER go to war with Ukraine! But if we did (with anyone) hopefully we would have minimal casualties on both sides. Maybe if this was full-blown war RF wouldn't go as far as I playfully suggested, but I bet life would be a whole lot rougher in Lviv and Kiev than it is now, put it that way....

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 17:47 utc | 379

@oldhippie #373

The only thing we know is the covid propaganda..

Records are not being kept. There is no data. Data analysis never happens.

We can, and I do, say the same thing about Ukraine. In fact that's why I wrote my initial (now-censored) 'black propaganda' post, and I've commented elsewhere on certain sources that are quoted here on a regular basis.

Before accepting at face value the opinion of a Martyanov or Ritter, or god forbid Chomsky, you need to analyze their history, figure out who they're working for and what the agenda is. There's more than one type of propaganda, and it's put out for more than one reason. Sometimes it's just a honey trap to identify dissenting voices.

Posted by: Kingsmeg | Jul 4 2022 17:47 utc | 380

@352 circumspect

Great addition. Thank you.

The myth sold here that western finance is what brought Germany back flies against the whole idea of Weimar to begin with: namely, Germany was to be punished by the west for starting WW1.

That the west would support the Nazis to defeat the Soviets is rather wishful thinking on the part of the Trotskyists, here, because wouldn't it be just perfect if it could be the communists versus the world!?!?!?

The fact that some anti-war industrialists gave aid and trade with Germany does not imply wholesale support from the west, but that there was an anti-war and anti-communist contingent in the states (shocking!) that liked the "cut of the NSDAP's jib."

Henry Ford used to release a magazine in his dealerships with scholarly essays about Jewish Internationalism and its parasitic nature. Ron Unz, a Jew, notes the lack of emotion in many of these old articles: they were matter-of-fact.

So the fact that Henry Ford, Lindbergh, and others saw something rosy about the Nazis is not surprising. It truly was impressive what they had done and what they had established themselves as being up against.

In the aforementioned essay on Suvorov, linked above and then again in Scorpion's post you have this tidbit:

In fact, McMeekin shows that “Roosevelt did everything he could to improve relations with Stalin” from the early years of his long presidency, starting with official recognition of the USSR in 1933. He purged the State Department of anti-Communists and staffed it with sympathizers or outright NKVD agents, such as Alger Hiss. As early as November 1936, he appointed a Soviet sympathizer, Joseph Davies, as his ambassador in Moscow, to replace William Bullitt who had become too openly critical of Stalin. “Where Ambassador Bullitt had seen deception and guile in Stalin’s foreign policy, his successor saw unicorns,” lavishing him with compliments: “You are a greater leader than Catherine the Great, than Peter the Great, a greater leader even than Lenin, etc.”[20]

Seems reasonable to me that as a patriot, you would be somewhat aghast and do what you can to push back on decisions your government makes that is in your mind deeply suspicious. I push back against both the narrative of my presising government wrt pretty much everything as well as my beloved Catholic Church who has a Pontificate that is rather deluded as it comes to the pernicious effect of globalism.

For instance, Joe Tzu just ended a good deal of tariffs on imported Chinese goods. What are we supposed to make of this? Chinese goods getting yet another advantage...to ease inflation? Or because our government is hopelessly infiltrated by interloping globalists?

I have made clear that I have no problem with trading with China, provided that we have restored a modicum of balance where our domestic manufacturing is revitalized and where we can compete fairly with China in this regard. I like the founders' idea that "trade with everyone, but no foreign entanglements!"

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jul 4 2022 17:54 utc | 381

"...the communists in Russia had nothing to do with large-scale famines and massacres which didn't even actually happen apparently..." scorpion @355
The Communists in Russia were often incompetent, corrupt, cruel and stupid. In this they differed little from the rulers of other countries. But the context in which they ruled was one designed to prevent the regulatory system-which mitigates and generally prevents such things from becoming serious- from working.
The aim of the imperialists was to prevent the Soviet Union from functioning as the thing they feared most: a real democracy, economic, social and political.
What was that regulatory system? Rule through the Soviets which were committees in permanent session, of the delegates, subject to immediate recall of factories, military units, villages and other communities. The delegates (some elected, others on a rotating basis or chosen by lot) brought the concerns of their constituents to the Soviet and reported the decisions of the Soviet to their
assembled constituents.
Constant war, subversion of the sort the whole world now understands to be baked into imperialism, bribery, blackmail and corruption of every kind provided the ammunition that those Communists who were inclined to shortcuts used to disassemble the Soviet system and replace it with the sort of electoral system familiar to us in the bourgeois world. The difference between the One Party state, in which factions promoted rival policies and the two party state in which factions promote indistinguishable policies, is not very large.
The Revolution in Russia in 1917 was long overdue and immensely popular, it involved almost the entire population. This was not a surprise to anyone- the entire world had been waiting for the Romanovs to be overthrown for the better part of a century. The revolution was welcomed everywhere except in those western quarters which viewed it as a weakening of the Entente in war.
What was not welcomed, and led to a vicious and seventy year long war against it, was the way in which the Russian peoples- freeing themselves from centuries of oppression in which they had been treated as virtual slaves- did not hesitate to identify the private ownership of land and other means of production as the cause of their suffering.
It is difficult to see how they could have concluded anything else: the social and economic basis of the small liberal and revisionist socialist parties was tiny. The dominating forces in Russian capitalism were foreign financiers who could bankroll parties but had no votes. The only other forces opposed to socialisation of land and industry were remnants of the landowning aristocracy who dominated the military, but even they were divided.
It was clear to all that the Russian revolution had to be socialist or defeated. Hence the vicious civil wars (most of them civil only in the sense that foreign powers employed as many Russian mercenaries as they could recruit, even Kornilov and his like represented only a minority within the communities which they mobilised) which reached their apotheosis in the 1990s when Yeltsin and other fruits of the system effortlessly turned themselves into the sort of class the Revolution had overthrown- comprador agents of foreign capital organised to suck every kopeck's worth of food and wealth out of the country and onto the markets that they controlled. In the process reducing the people to the misery from which the mere policy of socialising the means of production had sufficed to deliver them, despite everything. Despite war, despite subversion, despite the constant din of propaganda most of it unadulterated fiction, despite the need to earmark not 2% but closer to 20% of the annual product to 'defence."
The Soviet Union did not collapse of its own faults, it was ground down and part of the grinding down was supplied by corruption within the Communist Party and the bureaucracy. Which is where we began because the Soviets were designed to act as popular control over government, bureaucrats and individuals and cliques within the system.
For those with time on their hands a study of the 1936 Constitution of the USSR would probably be rewarding.
Another study yet to be conducted would assess the number of casualties of the neo-liberalisation of the former Soviet Union after 1990. In terms of deaths the number would probably exceed those who died in the war, in terms of other casualties, from untreated medical conditions leading to life long handicaps to lives interrupted and ruined by, for example, the cessation of education, in terms of the replacement of Soviet ideology by the various forms of fascism imported from the "west" and the consequent violence (see Donbas) would occupy several Robert Conquests for decades. It would be unlikely to attract financing from the CIA or the Foreign Office, however.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 4 2022 18:00 utc | 382

Kingsmeg@342

Yes, Pfizer did a biodistribution study with lab rats. Given that the result was wholly negative - this stuff is not supposed to end up in bloodstream or brain or ovaries - it should have been followed with more studies and was an indicator the whole project should have been scrubbed. MRNA and lipid nanoparticles have been around a good long time now and mainly confined to livestock. Not livestock you intend to breed, livestock headed for the slaughterhouse. The biodistribution problem is known.

No indication any in the regulatory chain ever saw that study. It came to light when the Japanese regulators were surprised it was absent from the docs they had been given and asked to see it.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 4 2022 18:01 utc | 383

Bernhard has new thread up for UKRAINE

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/07/ukraine-open-thread-2022-103.html#comments

Posted by: crone | Jul 4 2022 18:14 utc | 384

aquileia @ Jul 4 2022 13:47 utc

"But others couldn't help but notice that the first thing the Bolshewiks did after the revolution was to kill millions of people and they didn't want a repeat of that in their own country."
Nobody actually noticed this because it didn't happen. This is Nazi propaganda. Please cite your sources.

" The main reason why so many volunteers from all over Europe joined the German military in its attack on the Soviet Union wasn't because they liked Nazi ideology so much (at least I don't think they did) but because they saw it as the only hope against the Soviets."

I've dealt with this elsewhere. Most of these 'volunteers' chose military service over slave labour. The exceptions real volunteers were Quislings and Bandera types, fascists themselves. But most of the members of foreign military detachments on the side of the Wehrmacht were drafted by fascist governments

"Also, Germans noticed that the Nazis had somehow been able to pull the country out of the depression, so that was another reason for their popularity."

I've noticed elsewhere that the talking point of the day for Hitler's fan club is, very topically, Nazi policies to get out of the Depression.
The point about Nazi economic policy was that it was all predicated on the certainty that, with assistance from the imperialist powers, Germany was going to turn the Soviet Union into its own, bigger and richer version of the US, west of the Alleghenies. It was all going to be conquered, the natives wiped out or enslaved and the wealth would be unimaginable. That was quite a selling point to investors, banks and creditors everywhere: we are soon going to be rich beyond all previous imaginings, would you mind waiting a few years for re-payment?
Of course all that conquering required two immediate things: the first was a massive amount of weaponry, munitions and other means of conquest. After 1933 the Arms industry was working three shits, seven days a week and hand in hand with production went innovation. Then the armed forces, severely restricted at Versailles needed to be expanded: men drafted, officers trained, ships built, aircraft designed. There was work for all.
It was Schacht's job to keep the cheques flying and postpone the moment of settlement.
One more thing was needed: a healthy and intelligent (within bounds) population. Hence full employment, good food and lots of encouragement in the family reproduction department.

As to those who claim that Hitler left the international financial system or invented an alternative to capitalism that is simply nonsense. The Nazi regime was hyper capitalist- ask the Krupps. Ask the Court at Nuremberg.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 4 2022 18:41 utc | 385

One thing I find interesting in the SMO is despite the failures on the Ukrainian side, the military incompetence hasn't affected the USD/Ukrainian exchange rate. (I only now learned that the Ukrainian unit of currency is called the Hryvnia). Since near the end of April, the Hryvina has been very steady, trading at about 29.5 UAH to 1 USD. You'd think with the absolute dogs mess of Ukraine the UAH would be a lot less stable than it is today.

[...snip...]

Maybe a person better schooled in economics than I am (what I know could be written on an index card) can explain the first phenomenon[...snip...]

Posted by: Ursula Zandt | Jul 4 2022 17:10 utc | 368

In the perhaps futile hope that documenting my own knowledge of the subject might require a second index card, one possibility seems to be that an agent of the US government might be using US dollars to purchase Hryvinas (if that's the right plural form), so as to prop up the latter.

Posted by: David Levin | Jul 4 2022 18:53 utc | 386

Posted by: Pagan | Jul 4 2022 16:56 utc | 365

Not quite true.

What does that mean? I'm a little bit pregnant?
You just confirmed what I said, after the collapse instigated by the elites then they privatized what was state property, for pennies to the dollar. Of course they were privileged, of course their kin would get the nice jobs and access to the best educational centers, but still they could not enjoy those privileges like the capitalists in the west, and that's why they got Yeltsyn with his family and before him Gorbach the marked hunchback's wife and her shopping sprees.

Posted by: Paco | Jul 4 2022 19:26 utc | 387

Posted by: David Levin | Jul 4 2022 18:53 utc | 388

I think it was Jacob Dreizin (or Tom Luongo) who said that Ukraine's expenses are paid by the US, which is what the US always does when it takes a country over, like Afghanistan or South Korea.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Jul 4 2022 19:36 utc | 388

a few salient points...
without the time stamp the number of a post means nothing.... on top of that, a number of posts have been deleted, which is probably for the better...
Posted by: james | Jul 4 2022 16:19 utc | 343

Yes, james, that's a constant problem. This thread has a lot of interesting back and forth that I would like to follow but simply cannot because posters
refuse to use the time stamp. With all the trolls and clean-up by b the post number is totally worthless.

I'm not a techie at all so am wondering - What is the purpose of the post number?

Can the post number just be programmed away leaving only the time stamp to see the sequence of posts?

Otherwise it's like herding cats.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Jul 4 2022 19:50 utc | 389

Posted by: Hermit | Jul 4 2022 17:31 utc | 378

"For a brief summary of the actual history of the USSR, see https://bit.ly/USSR-Nutshell The USSR in a Nutshell: A Brief History of the Rise and Destruction of the Soviet Union and What Happens Next.


And for the lies about the USSR having "murdered millions" before WW II, see http://bit.ly/LiesAboutUSSR “Lies Concerning the History of the Soviet Union” "

Thank you for sharing that work. I found both quite persuasive, more the second than the first, but would need to see more detailed examples to feel confident in your conclusions. That said, have always found some of the huge numbers in Soviet history hard to swallow and the ones later published from the archives make more sense. (The same thing happened when Russian records from the German camps were released but we won't go there!) I am not yet convinced that all the stories of early atrocities from the Cheka and various famines are entirely fantastical but reading your report was an eye opener and to me, at least, apart from your sometimes frothy rhetoric about enemies whose hyberbolic stridency tends to make the reader distance himself from the author's voice, it sounded more realistic than any account have read before (admittedly not many).

I would want to hear Solzenitsyn's side of the story before entirely discounting everything he said and wrote as you do, for example. In your piece you quoted him thusly:

"All the time progressive public opinion demands democratic political reform while supporting acts of terrorism'. 'Those who seek rapid democratic reform, do they realise what will happen tomorrow or the day after? In Spain there may be democracy tomorrow, but after tomorrow will it be able to avoid falling from democracy into totalitarianism?' To cautious inquiries by the journalists as to whether such statements could not be seen as support for regimes in countries where there was no liberty, Solzhenitsyn replied: 'I only know one place where there is no liberty and that is Russia.'

He may have been too hasty in his condemnation of democracy but it does indeed seem like it has been hijacked in the West and we are now collectively staring into a decidedly totalitarian abyss which is using the many flaws in any democratic election and managerial process to facilitate its adoption. The alarming way people pick up on ideas fed to them and parrot them back, also participate in cancelling those who do not succumb, is concerning to say the least, but far more than mere conformism seems right around the corner - and all facilitated by the cover democracy provides.

I also don't understand how Russia enjoyed high growth and greater wealth per capita than other European countries at the time - at least according to some accounts I've read - whilst the peasants were so terribly abused as you recount. Was the world Tolstoy described really so entirely divorced from the reality your account seemingly portrays? We wonders, aye, we wonders, Precious.

Of course in these relatively short pieces you cannot present extensive detail so I'm not criticizing on that score; it's just that given the great difference between Version A and Version B it's hard to just immediately go along with the new one.

But again: thank you very much for sharing those pieces. I now understand why many insist that there was no Holodomor, there were no millions murdered in Russia and so forth, although I note they still insist that the Germans killed thirty million Russians in WWII - something I find fantastical - and they also deny the millions of post-war Soviet-perpetrated rapes and murders and of course affirm all the mainstream Nazi atrocity stories even though those same Russian archives you use to bolster your well-made argument also contradict the oft-cited and legally enforced numbers just as the Swiss Cross records do (the two archives having almost identical figures in most cases I believe, far lower than the officially approved numbers).

I come away from your pieces with the sense that most likely all the stories about this period about all sides have a huge hyberbole quotient but am not persuaded that extremely ugly things happened on all sides. Very hard to feel confident either way without investing hundreds of hours in study which am not willing to undertake.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 19:50 utc | 390

Not quite true.
What does that mean?

Posted by: Paco | Jul 4 2022 19:26 utc | 389

It means that great number of luxury real estate was passed on the next generation, admittedly only after the regime collapsed. But I disagree that the demise of the regime was engineered in order to acquire those and other luxuries. The reasons for the collapse are still debated and they are probably more complex than you make them out to be. But whatever the reasons, the privileged elites used their positions to benefit from the collapse of the system they built. What I am trying to say, most of them were not communists, not a working class avant-garde, not even leftists, just greedy opportunists.

Posted by: Pagan | Jul 4 2022 20:03 utc | 391

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 19:50 utc | 392
errata, last paragraph should read:

"I come away from your pieces with the sense that most likely all the stories about this period about all sides have a huge hyberbole quotient but am not persuaded that extremely ugly things DID NOT HAPPEN on all sides....."

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 20:05 utc | 392

Posted by: bevin | Jul 4 2022 18:00 utc | 384


Thank you for your post and your patience in going over these things which for you must be old hat. As I mentioned to Pilgrim above am beginning to appreciate that there are great differences between various versions. I still think you have a natural tendency to whitewash the Soviets and blackwash their enemies overmuch but given the momentous and extreme nature of what went down during the last century that is hardly surprising.

I come away with the distinct impression that the Russian revolution was a very dirty and extremely cruel business involving black money from filthy rich capitalists many of whom were Tsar-hating Jews in America and Europe and that there were periods of extreme atrocities for whatever reason and that a lot of very bad stuff happened involving that revolution and attempt to set up a new type of socialist world in the midst of which came a world war no doubt instigated and pushed by corrupt forces many of which had pushed the revolution too.

I am not yet persuaded that communism or capitalism are really valid ways of running countries or even anything other than psyops on some level. There is so much deception in every aspect on every side of this that I am not able, as you seem to be, to paint one side as pure in motivation and the many other sides as entirely impure.

But no matter. Thanks to your arguments here, and others, I have learned to see there are valid and very different interpretations from that period. How that translates into the here and now am not sure. I get the feeling that Russia is much more like an ideal Christian Western nation in essence than any other in Europe, that America and Europe are lost having been taken over by extra-constitutional power blocs bent on who knows what but it has nothing to do with the well-being of their people or the world, so that it seems to me that in terms of the SMO Russia is on pretty firm ground.

But as to other things swirling around which I suspect are related, things like the sanctions breaking up world trade and finance, things like questionable pandemics driving states into emergency status suspending rule of law and pushing highly questionable medications into billions, things like seemingly deliberate destruction of the world economy and soon more disease, famine and war... well with all these things I feel more or less the same as this Russia-Nazi issue: there's a lot of bad actors in the mix on all sides and it's very hard to see any clearly good ones - at least from the perspective of the ordinary person suffering from diseases, business closures, travel restrictions, increased poverty and insecurity.

So far it hasn't been all that bad, but the next few years seem to be promising apocalyptic levels of dysfunction. Let us hope I'm just being jittery.

Thank you again, bevin.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 20:19 utc | 393

Is this capitalist-fascist propaganda too do you think?

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/18644/china-xinjiang-human-rights

"Documents and photos of thousands of ethnic Uighurs arrested by Chinese authorities, made public in late May, lend additional indisputable evidence to the Communist regime's massive human rights violations in Xinjiang. Many of the leaked documents are official Chinese Ministry of Interior dossiers of incarcerated individuals just from Shufu, one among 61 counties in Xinjiang Province. The Shufu County in the Kashgar Prefecture is the site of several large internment camps.

One of the leaked documents, which contains "a shoot to kill order" for guards in the camp's watchtowers, confirms that these camps are indeed prisons. Another leaked report stipulates how detainees are to be transported from one site to an alternate location: ankle shackles, handcuffs and hoods.

The documents also contain policy papers and speeches by high-level officials of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) concerning the "Uyghur Question." One speech was delivered on June 18, 2018 by Xinjiang Party Secretary Chen Quanguo , the principal architect of the Uyghur Re-education Infrastructure. Chen developed his minority-suppression model while regional Party leader in Tibet from 2011 to 2016. Chen was then transferred by China's President Xi Jinping to apply his skills to Xinjiang, where he was Party leader from August 2016 to December 2021. Chen's replacement should not be viewed as a demotion for Chen. He remains a full (voting) member of the CCP Politburo and may be promoted even further in the upcoming 20th CCP Congress this autumn."

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 21:31 utc | 394

@ waynorinorway | Jul 4 2022 19:50 utc | 391

the post number becomes largely irrelevant when one is on a site that deletes posts!! typically this doesn't happen that often at moa, but the beginning of this thread was littered with a number of vacuous troll like posts... b must have deleted at least 30 or more odd posts! so the time stamp is the only usable reference to the post in this instance.... cheers to you from vancouver island!

Posted by: james | Jul 4 2022 22:00 utc | 395

@396 scorpion

Ultimately, it matters not the validity of such claims.

What matters is that the U.S. and any other country that desires it, should seek immediate decoupling from China and other SW Asian countries.

Tariffs need to be reinstated en masse, domestic manufacturing must be employed, and a general attitude of protectionism should prevail. Then, and only then, can we take each trade on a case-by-case basis and where it is assured that the business on our end be tempered with a fervent sense of nationalism.

We can not act as the world police any longer. Caring for another country's population is just a ruse to enable globalists.

Let the Church work its humanitarian struggle where it can. It is, after all, the original and sole legitimate proprieter of corporate globalism.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jul 4 2022 22:01 utc | 396

"Is this capitalist-fascist propaganda too do you think?"
Yes.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/18644/china-xinjiang-human-rights
The article was written by one of Rumsfeld's colleagues-his Iran specialist. Rumsfeld ought to have been tried for war crimes, his colleagues with him.
Does China have Prisons in Sinkiang? Yes it does. But China imprisons a far smaller proportion of its population in far better conditions than the US does.
The author talks of gulags: no country has a larger gulag than the one of whose government was a part.
The Chinese have been quite open about the situation in Sinkiang- there is a small minority of Uighurs enrolled in US/Turkish trained, financed and armed terrorist groups and some of them have been imprisoned.
It really is shocking and an indication of the morbid levels of American hypocrisy that men like Lawrence, part of an administration which ran secret torture sites around the world, which established the Guantanamo complex- an epicentre of state criminality- and shamelessly kidnapped and detained (in some cases for decades, lifetimes) unindicted, untried often totally uninvolved persons, which has a longstanding programme of assassination by drone and actually has the largest and one of the worst prison systems on earth, one of those responsible for these enormities and probably for many more, has the gall to question China's judicial system.
Anyone who takes Lawrence's words with more than a belly laugh needs his head examined.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 4 2022 22:02 utc | 397

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jul 4 2022 22:01 utc | 398

"We can not act as the world police any longer. Caring for another country's population is just a ruse to enable globalists."

I wasn't thinking along those lines, rather just a little alert to those who think that China is a World Savior or some such.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 23:03 utc | 398

Posted by: bevin | Jul 4 2022 22:02 utc | 399

"Anyone who takes Lawrence's words with more than a belly laugh needs his head examined."

Well, I wouldn't know all that background, bevin, but as usual: an impressive reply on your part!

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 4 2022 23:06 utc | 399

oldhippie | Jul 4 2022 18:01 utc | 385
“……MRNA and lipid nanoparticles have been around a good long time now and mainly confined to livestock. Not livestock you intend to breed, livestock headed for the slaughterhouse. “
Well. More and more I find the analogy that people are livestock….increasingly apt.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 5 2022 0:14 utc | 400

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