Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 11, 2022
NYT Ground Report Debunks NYT Claim Of Strikes Against ‘Ukraine’s Civilians’

Nearly all big mainstream media currently provide 'live updates' of the war in Ukraine. These include abbreviated reports about this or that incident. They are convenient for the reader but miss important details which often debunk the claims made in them.

In today's 'live updates' the Washington Post writes twice about a missile strike in the town of Chasiv Yar:

Two dozen people remained trapped under the rubble of two high-rise apartment buildings in Chasiv Yar, a city in the Donetsk region, that local officials said were struck by Russian missiles. The governor of Donetsk called Russian strikes on the region over the weekend “true hell.”

More details are mentioned further down:

Rescue teams continue to comb through a residential complex after a Russian missile strike in Chasiv Yar over the weekend. Photos show bodies being pulled from the rubble and the possessions of residents buried under piles of bricks and dust.

Amid the debris lay shattered photo frames, furniture, blown-out windows and doors. Some residents returned to try to salvage their belongings. At least 18 were killed, and two dozen are missing. The death toll is expected to rise.

Some locals watched in horror as they waited for news of their loved ones.

“It was a missile strike,” Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Sunday. “And everyone who gives orders for such strikes, everyone who carries them out targeting our ordinary cities, residential areas, kills absolutely deliberately.”

The Saturday missile strike on Chasiv Yar was also mentioned in yesterday's WaPo 'live updates' in similar detail. I find no stand alone report on the strike on the WaPo website.

Chasiv Yar lies west of Bakhmut about 25 kilometer from the front line

bigger

The New York Times' 'live updates' also mention the strike. The summary says:

The toll from a strike on the apartment complex in the Donetsk village of Chasiv Yar late Saturday rose to 24, the Ukrainian State Emergency Service said on Monday on Twitter. Eight people had been pulled from the rubble and rescued so far, it said.

Further down the incident is described in more detail:

Rescue workers scrambled on Sunday and into Monday to pull survivors from the wreckage of a five-story residential block in the eastern village of Chasiv Yar, in Donetsk, that was targeted by Russian missiles. Twenty-four people were killed and nine people had been rescued.

But President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine said in a speech on Saturday that he hopes that an influx of weapons supplied by the West — including $400 million in military aid announced by the Biden administration on Friday — would help redress its disadvantage and “reduce Russian attack capabilities.”

The Times however has a reporter, Carlotta Gall, in Ukraine who visited the town and down in her stand alone report we find important details that the summaries somehow missed:

CHASIV YAR, Ukraine — Russia’s offensive in eastern Ukraine is intensifying in Donetsk Province, with a string of towns and villages coming under bombardment in the last week as Russian troops turn their firepower farther west after seizing control of the last city under Ukrainian control in Luhansk Province.

For days now, the attacks have mostly seemed random and without purpose, but taken as a whole they make clear that Russia is preparing to capture another slice of Donetsk, the other province in the Donbas region.
…
The deadliest attack came late Saturday, when rockets struck an apartment complex in the village of Chasiv Yar, a dozen miles from the front. At least 15 people were reported dead.

All through the day on Sunday, soldiers and emergency crews worked to rescue people from the bombed complex, pulling a sixth survivor from the rubble nearly 24 hours after the Russian rockets hit. Still, officials said late Saturday that a number of people might still lay beneath the debris.
…
On the front in Donetsk Province, a resident of Chasiv Yar village, Oleksandr, 31, stood watching the rescue work at the stricken apartment complex as machines pulled away concrete slabs and emergency workers flung bricks aside. “My grandmother was here,” he said. “That’s her bed,” he added pointing to the pile of rubble. “I hope they will find her and I can give her a funeral.”

He said that about 10 civilians, mostly women on pensions, were living in the building at the time of the strike, but that members of the military had come to lodge there two days earlier. He had tried to persuade his grandmother to move to his place, he said, but she had refused.

Two soldiers who had been staying in the building were among the dead, according to another soldier who arrived with colleagues from the front line near Bakhmut to retrieve belongings. He gave only his first name, Dyma, and his age, 28, in accordance with military rules. Military vests and rucksacks and a broken rifle, covered in brick dust, lay on the ground under the trees.

He said a plane had struck the building with rockets. Aerial bombardment was the most punishing, Dyma said. A plane had dropped a parachute bomb on their positions near Bakhmut, causing devastating damage. “They do not announce it but we are taking heavy losses,” he said. “We need to close the skies,” he added, repeating a request that many Ukrainians make for planes and stronger air defense systems from Western allies to combat Russian aerial attacks.

So, according to Oleksandr, the resident of Chasiv Yar, 10 old women were living in the building. But there are a total of 24 who were retrieved dead, according to the latest NYT update, two dozen who are additionally still missing and 8 that were rescued.

That makes for a total of 56 people hit by the strike of which possibly 10 were the resident pensioners. The other 46 then were 'members of the military [who] had come to lodge there two days earlier'.

To call that a 'strike on civilians' is incorrect to say the least. It was a strike on a military target that unfortunately had used a civilian residential structure with the residents becoming human shield and later 'collateral damage'.

The Russian defense ministry is thereby mostly correct when it reports the strike like this:

High-precision ground-based weapons near Chasov Yar in Donetsk People's Republic have destroyed temporary deployment point of 118th Brigade of Territorial Defence of AFU. The attack has resulted in the elimination of more than 300 nationalists.

The number in the Russian report is likely exaggerated (as is typical for such military reports). On the other hand we do not know the real number of casualties as such numbers usually creep up over time as they have already done in this case. The Ukrainian government may also want to hide the real casualty number. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle of both current claims.

UPDATE (17:15 UTC)

I have now found a decent survey view of the house. With 5 stories it is big enough to house the 300 troops the Russia defense ministry claimed. We however do not know how many really were there.


Source – bigger

End Update

Ignoring the detailed report from its own reporter the New York Times today added a stand alone piece that accuses the Russian military of repeated hits on civilians:

Russia has claimed that it aims only at targets of military value — even though some were hundreds of miles from the front lines — and that whenever a civilian facility did get hit, it was one that the Ukrainian military had co-opted for use as a command post, a shelter for foreign fighters or storage for weapons.
…
Yet journalists, independent organizations and Ukrainian officials have documented Russian attacks on thousands of civilian buildings, structures and vehicles. In some cases, Russia used outdated weapons that might have been aimed at an industrial facility but missed, putting civilians at risk. But in many other cases, the Russians’ explanations have not held up under scrutiny.

Here are a few of the largest attacks, along with how Russia has explained away responsibility.

July 9: Apartment complex in Chasiv Yar

At least 24 people were killed after Russian rockets slammed into an apartment complex in Chasiv Yar, an eastern village about a dozen miles from the front line, Ukrainian emergency services said. Initial reports said a number of others were trapped beneath the rubble.

Russia’s response: The apartment buildings were being used by Ukrainian troops, the Russian state news agency TASS reported, citing an unnamed Russian law enforcement official. No civilians were killed, it claimed.

The Russian claim that 'no civilians were killed' is likely false, but the New York Times claim that it was an attack on something 'civilian' is proven wrong by the on-the-ground report from its own journalist.

The accusatory piece also mention as 'civilian' target the shopping mall in Kremenchuck which burned down after a missile strike hit the heavy machine factory right behind it.

The writers also list the Kramatorsk train station which was hit by a Ukranian Tocka-U missile fired from the direction held by the Ukrainian military.

Other 'civilian' places mentioned in that smear piece are the Mariupol maternity hospital which had been reported empty before being used as a fighting position, attacks on holiday apartments in Odessa which had previously been reported to house foreign fighters and the alleged Bucha massacre which was caused by Ukrainian artillery and Azov Nazis who killed pro-Russian civilians after the Russian military had departed the town.

The whole accusatory report, headlined 'Russia Repeatedly Strikes Ukraine’s Civilians. There’s Always an Excuse.', falls apart when one looks into the details behind the propaganda claims 'western' media made about the incidents.

Comments

The end of euro is getting closer each day. Today Moscow Exchange has the same value of 59 for both. Won’t be long before France or Germany go back to their own currency. US is sucking everything from EU, Japan and all the other slaves, they can’t print money anymore.

Posted by: rk | Jul 12 2022 8:50 utc | 201

@imo | Jul 12 2022 8:41 utc | 199
Exactly, weapon tests and training.
It is very funny that the whole West is shown by MSM as “strong” by sending weapons toghether (without any success anyway), but if China or Iran want to kill some nato nazis and test weapons is presented as “weak” behaviour for Russia.

Posted by: rk | Jul 12 2022 8:53 utc | 202

Posted by: Rick | Jul 12 2022 6:27 utc | 177…
“Nathan Wolfe is founder of Metabiota; Edward Rubin is Chief Scientific Officer of Metabiota. I’m certain both of these fine, upstanding gentlemen would never, ever deign to be involved in a joint American-Israeli government program to develop biological weapons for use against entire peoples (i.e., to perpetrate genocide). Never, ever….”
Thanks Rick,
you have a dry sense of humor.These “gentlemen”, and their accomplices have been using biological weapons and perpetrating an ongoing and relentless geoncide since before the Bandit State was founded on stolen Palestinian land.
Read on:
“At a time when TV screens are filled with images of perceived weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in Iraq among people who are on the verge of starvation, the West turns a blind eye to the first biological terrorist in the Middle East, Israel, where the largest depot of WMD between London and Peking is located.
When confronted with the anomaly, the United States ambassador to the UN, John Negroponti, responds with typical cynicism, “Israel did not use these weapons against its people or its neighbours.” Assuming that the ambassador is well-informed, this statement is a patent lie. Israel used biological weapons even before it was created on Arab soil in 1948 and ever since. The purpose, according to Ben Gurion, is genocide, and if not complete, the purpose is not to allow the dispossessed Palestinians to return to their homes……”
https://electronicintifada.net/content/traces-poison/4588

Posted by: Paul | Jul 12 2022 9:18 utc | 203

@ Erelis # 62
The logic reminds me of the whole ‘let’s storm Area 51, they can’t kill all of us!”. But I noticed on Sky News the reporter used the line ‘person’ rather than ‘man’ and they have restricted the movement of young women out of the country, perhaps a million is only the total size they aim for if you include all the support staff and does not represent soldiers.
This is further bolstered by even the glow in the dark from the RUSI (Official British Army ‘think tank’ whose current vice president is the American former CIA director David Petraeus) they brought on to ‘agree’ that this was feasible by basically saying “Yes, a million men is feasible, if we consider 400k as a million”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjb62ECSvUs
Also worth noting that while the UK and Poland and probably the Baltics are training the soldiers up, the USA has kindly chosen to train the officer corps… That was so nice of the US. I’m sure these men will be fortified with American love for Democracy!

Posted by: Altai | Jul 12 2022 9:21 utc | 204

EU is building a bunker for its leaders. Costs 8m.
This is for the riots that will happen in a few months. They want to be like zelly, hiding in a basement.

Posted by: rk | Jul 12 2022 9:38 utc | 205

Hey Peter, one should try to connect what Raoult said about the epidemy starting to take ground mainly in the mink farms of Mayenne with the origin of the people who take the BS jobs in Western EU farms…

Posted by: Oldanonym | Jul 12 2022 9:38 utc | 206

In response to Aslangeo@189,
The fuel situation appears to be stabilizing for Ukraine, at least in areas firmly under Ukrainian control — front-line areas, particularly in partial cauldrons and encirclements, obviously aren’t getting much in the way of supplies. I have heard people talk about the restoration of the railway bridge in Zatoka as a key factor in the resumption of fuel transit and I honestly don’t see the connection — Zatoka may be key to supplying weapons to Odessa, but it’s not an obstacle for the rest of the country.
Ukraine was and is being supplied by Romanian refineries and, presumably, Romania has been able to restore Soviet rail connections in Vicșani, as it announced in May, to replace part of the volume of its defunct Black Sea shipments. In conjunction with strikes on rail infrastructure in West Ukraine, Russia is also working on starving Romania of oil imports by creating barriers for Kazakhstan, which is Romania’s main provider of oil. As it stands, Kazakhstan has not been able to ship oil from the Russian port in Novorossiysk since April, causing no small amount of friction between Putin & Tokayev, but a recent environmental pretext appears to have been overturned in court, which either means that an understanding has been reached or that Russia is ready to pursue some other strategy. Either way, blocking Kazakhstani oil could only have been a temporary stop-gap and it doesn’t seem to have influenced Romanian shipments of petrol to Ukraine anyway, though who knows what their reserves look like at the moment and if they’ll be able to continue supplying Ukraine indefinitely.

Posted by: Skiffer | Jul 12 2022 10:13 utc | 207

I’m verry worried about US army. Yes, yes.
A parked F18 fell off the USS Harry S. Truman into Mediterranean Sea. There was some wind and pushed it over the edge.
What do you think??? Are they collapsing? Retreating to Washington? Is Biden in a bunker yet?

Posted by: rk | Jul 12 2022 10:14 utc | 208

About those many ammo depots and warehouses along with Hi mars etc… one explanation could be that the new US GPS guided munitions with a fair medium range are precision-targeting ex Ukr stores left intact after ukr retreat/ Rus advance. They know their precise positions , deny Rus profiting of them and boost morale and propaganda. That would be valid for places abandoned by Ukr after Smo.

Posted by: GoFigure | Jul 12 2022 10:20 utc | 209

@Skiffer | Jul 12 2022 10:13 utc | 207
If anything was restored, it’ll take a single missile to un-restore it for another 2-3 months. I often see photos of Ukr soldiers on bycicles or horses. You think they’re being eco warriors or Flintstone warriors?

Posted by: rk | Jul 12 2022 10:25 utc | 210

Cyberhorse | Jul 12 2022 8:30 utc | 198
Thanks. A bit of feedback lets me know my headaches are not going to waste.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 12 2022 10:30 utc | 211

In response to rk@210,
Not sure about a single missile, but the knowledge alone that a key transit point is under observation makes using it a potentially fatal act of desperation. Something that definitely can’t be resolved with a single missile is the entire Ukrainian-Romanian-Moldovan land-border, so if they want to ship fuel they’ll always find a way to do it. Getting it to the places where its needed the most, however, is a different story, and Russian long range strikes in the West of the country are presumably designed to disrupt freight potential as much as possible, but it’ll be an ongoing process. Horses and bikes would be ubiquitous for the front-lines, where Russia is within artillery range of Ukrainian supply lines.

Posted by: Skiffer | Jul 12 2022 10:42 utc | 212

@GoFigure | Jul 12 2022 10:20 utc | 209
I doubt gps works in Ukr. Russia can replace the signal with a fake one to change the path of missiles. They did that in Syria very well, against the best missiles US shot at them. US drones fall from the sky too.
What zelli is doing is shooting a salvo of nato or Tochka missiles because they only get one single chance to fire so they fire multiple at the same target. Nothing special, no gps needed.
Nato is doing the targeting (middle of cities, factories, fertilizers, anything that isn’t protected and kills more civilians). If they try to shoot at protected areas sometimes only what remains from the explosion falls on houses.
Killing 100k nazis won’t prevent terrorist attacks as long as nato is the government. Extermination time for the government and military leaders is now. nato being desperate will select bigger and bigger targets, like a nuclear power plant so the nato-ukr connection must be eliminated

Posted by: rk | Jul 12 2022 10:50 utc | 213

@imo #171
Fascinating. Neat thinking. Thanks. You write in a very condensed style. Just to check if I am grocking your drift:
“Whether it is a Chinese Confucian orientated “social credit” system or an American (5-Eyes) Deep State prison (plantation) industrial system complex is really just the tablecloth over the underlying hard structure. The latter needs a “war” metaphor to operate, the former less so. The key point for future relevance is whether it is aimed at “common wealth” or exceptional (privileged) criminal Oligarch wealth — e.g., Ukraine for Ukrainians, or for the Biden criminal family gang; Haiti for the locals, or for the criminal Clinton gang etc. Is there room for aristocracy beyond the quaint cultural history narratives?”
One thing I’ve been ‘worriting’ about is what some might describe as a ‘technological imperative (or empire)’ in that the world is now interconnected via a technology which, like a surveillance state, has its tentacles in everyone everywhere. This can be likened to a large office building. Yes, there are many different entities in that building with entirely different agendas, even languages and lineage, but they all breath the same air, the same electrical grid and, in this example, the same ISP. So the social credit / surveillance business, it seems to me, is being pursued by all sides in this conflict right now. (Strangely, I read that Ukraine was the leading quasi-European nation in exploring social credit and digital currency options to be rolled out in the near future.) There is no major country not looking into or beginning to implement this sort of thing right now. The point being that no matter the political ideology or system, the same technological architecture will be in place world wide fairly soon. And that common architecture has a decidedly surveillance state feel to it whether taking place in confucian or machiavellian style polity as you insightfully pointed out. Is that similar to what you are saying?
“There is a new generation “wake up” going on in the post-colonial west which will test the mettle of many – and the viable futures of some parasitic derivative ‘states’ like the apartheid post-1967 Israel. Food, energy and a fair system of sharing the common-wealth (domestic and international) is fast becoming the normative measure. Exceptionalism, whether Judaic, Hindu, White, European, North, American (but I repeat myself), or political ideology, is now increasingly on the extinction risk list.”
Good point. I feel that the primacy of rentier financing is also a key driver. It was allowed to grow centuries ago, probably to allow corrupt kings to wage corrupt wars without having to depend on their feudal peers/underlings/barons, in other words a financial workaround and in so doing gradually replacing the primacy of the subjects with the primacy of banksters many of whom function outside the formers’ socio-political jurisdictions. This gradually snowballed to the point now that the parasites have infested all vital organs and the West are now Dead Man Walking zombie polities. The point being that this parasitical money-fueled system that only knows its own way of being and only follows its own imperatives will keep doing so even as they gradually sink below the rising tide of ‘ordinary economics’ (food, energy etc.) which the Russia-China ‘Eurasian’ axis seems determined to re-impose. They do indeed have no reverse gear. So I guess I’m saying it’s maybe less to do with ideological exceptionalism as financial parasitism / rentier-fueled models that are the main drivers with the former (ideologies, narratives etc.) providing cover for the latter (money money money).
I agree with you that it remains to be seen how it all turns out. Russia-China-India (the world’s Big Three population-wise) are right to push back so that their people and resources are not vacuumed-up into the maws of the Great Vampire Squid, but that doesn’t guarantee that they will necessarily create something all that much better especially given the all-pervasive nature of modern i-tech. For sure it is going to be far more authoritarian, technology driven and materialist, though viz the latter perhaps to a lesser degree than the exceptionalist / rentier regimes.
Anyway. Thanks again, and thanks also to PeterAU1, sushi, Boomhauer and so many more on this thread.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 12 2022 10:50 utc | 214

Regarding …
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jul 11 2022 23:15 utc | 131
Posted by: susan mullen | Jul 12 2022 4:24 utc | 169
Cheers for the replies to my post in 129. Uncle, I was talking about what the public gets feed by the MSM 24/7, nice bit-sized anti-Russian propaganda. There are a few German sites out there, yet, most people wont see them or even look for them.
Susan … as above. I was talking primarily about the German MSM or, indeed, nigh any other German news/talk show. You have to be rather dim not to see through this veil of blatant one-sided stuff, but it is nonetheless heinous propaganda.

Posted by: CM of Berlin | Jul 12 2022 10:51 utc | 215

RE: Israel
On the contrary it is Israel that is in the position of Ukraine. They committed multiple massacres against Palestinian that prompted Arab League interventions. Said interventions are then claimed as unprovoked, calling the might of their allies US, France to bear against their ‘enemies’ like today Ukraine.
The Arabs parallel to Russian today with their own historical accounts erased, plights ignored, people Dehumanized by the US led west.

Posted by: Lucci | Jul 12 2022 11:02 utc | 216

@Melaleuca, On the one hand, there’s CCTV video from inside the mall when the missile struck. Adverts posted online days before the strike, recent receipts, recent texts to workers, interviews with victims and first responders, international press observing burnt and mangled bodies being pulled from the collapsed building in the first hours afterward. On the other hand, a google listing from the first weeks of the war showed it was closed, which it might well have been at that time. If you smell BS all the time, check your shoes first.

Posted by: yenwoda | Jul 12 2022 11:04 utc | 217

The Russians have not declared war yet.
They have special operations taking place in various regions across the world which are targets of the dying Empire who have asked for help.
Russia have enough resource to do that.
The Resistance and the SCO have combined to deal death with a thousand needles to the Collective Waste’s Dreams of Grandeur.
When taking a breath after pummelling your opponent in the ring sometimes you want to know just what they have left in their locker, go on give me your best shot! Here’s my chin 🥊 – what is your secret weapon?
Followed by resumption of the one way punishment – and if any of the arseholes are throwing your rocks at me from the safety of the ringside I would like to introduce to my friend Mr F Kin Zell 😂
You want War? Let’s see how your shipments, shippers and shitheads care as they sit in their superyachts and secret islands – you won’t even make it to the news channels – just some mysterious disappearance – worse things happen at sea and all…
Ps I looked in on the old Jesuit armchair warlord Colonel Blimp – yup has definite signs of irrational exuberance dreaming of Space Force – the latest MIC whiz to hoover up tens and hundreds of billions for make believe delivery of SAS services run by – civilians! Slurping at the teats of Government Spending – like the good Marxist socialist Commie haters they are. 🤣
Yesterday I put on the 1812 overture LOUD and PROUD – nobody knew it was banned or complained many swayed along with the familiar melodies.
Not so easy to cancel.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Jul 12 2022 11:07 utc | 218

@rk | Jul 12 2022 8:50 utc | 201

The end of euro is getting closer each day. Today Moscow Exchange has the same value of 59 for both. Won’t be long before France or Germany go back to their own currency. US is sucking everything from EU, Japan and all the other slaves, they can’t print money anymore.

This cannot come soon enough. It will bring down the whole EU monstrosity, and that is needed more than ever,

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 12 2022 11:24 utc | 219

Peter AU1 | Jul 12 2022 5:56 utc | 174
Excellent contribution on biolabs and everything else.
We must never let the new-Mengelites and their patrons slip back into the shadows, even if our political class will be perfectly happy to do so, in exchange for an upgrade to their dining car privileges!

Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 12 2022 11:44 utc | 220

@yenwoda #149:

Oops, I should have read the comments before posting. This is the kind of place where people talk about Jew York Times, mutter ominously about how “the Jews will have nowhere to run” and believe that the Russians bought 2 Caesar SPHs off Ukraine. Even the Bushies weren’t that credulous during the Iraq War!

We don’t control what people are posting here. Lately there has been an influx of posters fixated on “Jooos!” and regurgitating British propaganda about Hitler’s Operation Barbarossa somehow only preempting allegedly imminent Soviet invasion. Basically, Nazi stuff. (Which is what Russia is fighting against in the Ukraine, by the way.) Old-time posters have been pushing back against this.
On the CAESARs, I agree that it is almost certainly Russian disinfo. The claim is extraordinary and must be proven with photos. It would be easy for Russia to publish photos of these howitzers, were they truly in Russia’s possession, yet we have seen none. I agree that people here should be more critical. Then again, people on your side still believe in the Ghost of Kiev and Russians gang-raping a one-year-old baby, so it’s clear which side is more credulous and dumb—by far.

Posted by: S | Jul 12 2022 12:16 utc | 221

@ Scorpion | Jul 12 2022 10:50 utc | 214
Well, I appreciate your reply. It is nice to understood occasionally.
Your reply stands for itself as a good description. And, yes, basically what you have written synchronizes with my thinking – “grocking your drift” as you say.
Let me respond briefly by quoting the first few words of each of your paragraphs as a cue in order to conserve space. I’ll also refer to a couple of background references if you wish to follow up etc.
1. “One thing I’ve been ‘worriting’ about is …. Is that similar to what you are saying?”
Yes, I think your building analogy is close. In fact, I spent the 1980-90s implementing exactly that which at the time were new “LAN” (local area networks) for what we called “office systems” in building (and WAN between). The thing is, we can have useful interoperability of diversity as long as it is based on common standards and message protocols—for example, the 7-layered Open Systems Interconnection model (OSI model). Look up “OSI_model” on Wikipedia.
Once this is understood, then it is not so difficult to translate functionally between diverse technology and proprietary systems – as long as they follow the basic functional rules.
Now, extend that same principle to the inter-level “gap” in a conceptually recursive systems thinking model. The one I like was developed by Stafford Beer and called the viable systems model (VSM). He actually worked with Allende in Chile before the USA shut it all down on 9/11 v1.0 (1973). Look up “Viable_system_model” on Wikipedia.
Perhaps look up “Cybersyn” which ran on old fax machines and smart statistics. I have no evidence, but I suspect the Russians and Chinese models have basically implemented its principles using modern technologies. Look up “Project_Cybersyn” on Wikipedia.
If you are not aware of it, then don’t get lost in the ‘Egyptian hieroglyphs’ of the system model. Simply see it as 5 sub-systems (or 7 functions if you wish) that inter-communicate to produce a state of “viability” (read sustainability today). It is a model from the 1970s. It is not hierarchical. For example, system 3 is the control function with audited performance/resource contracts with sub units (systems 1). Five is chairman/Board/policy/identity level. Four is a foresight/Intel research (R&D or marketing) angle etc. System 2 is the co-ordination function. Time-tables in schools; traffic lights in transportation; airline schedules, dating Apps, booking systems (Uber/Airbnb) etc. This “coordination” is the layer/function I am referring to in my “dense” description. It “works for” system 3 (control) in a scheduling sense. When “it” f_cks up we have supply chain and “dis-coordination” issues etc. So, the VSM is a good social system “debugging” tool. How this co-ordinating function goes about its functional role is a lesser issue – horses for courses etc. As long as it works!
Now skip to a “soft systems” approach and what Peter Checkland (1981) called the “cultural feasibility” which allows/limits “desirable systemic change”. Once we understand the functional mechanics at work then it is easier to see how what may seem like diversity/variety at a surface (social system) layer is in fact the same thing at work underneath – sheep dogs herding sheep etc.
Perhaps look up the “Causal Layered Analysis” (CLA) approach?
Then look at history and see how it gets implemented at the civilizational level – and works best in the current context. China is a 5,000-year-old civilization. America is at best a couple of centuries. The Europeans only discovered zero in the 1600s! The American “system 2” does what it needs to do to organize – as does China’s. The question (for the future) is: which is more efficient in an austere economic/resource/energy context. Darwin’s theory implies the “fit” between the species and the niche is what determines the evolutionary outcome advantage. Survival of the fittest (at species level) is like a relationship between the foot and the shoe. Any rub hurts. The root metaphor for Chinese civilization is “harmony” (what the EU is trying to find now). The West/American metaphor is “competition”. This difference begins to make a difference under present conditions.
2. “Good point. I feel that the primacy of rentier financing is also a key driver. …”
You lose me a bit here. I would roll up the “king/feudal peers/underlings/barons” model as economic “moral hazard” – that is, (in my view) understood as a system lacking feedback accountability that a Reserve/Central bank print out of control represents. Look up “Moral_hazard” on Wikipedia. [It is referred to as 3-star/audit/feedback in the vsm) The system auditor looks for breaks/deficits in these 5-7 domains of social systems in focus.
However, the strategic metaphor I prefer is the neuro-parasitogy of the Jewel Wasp (Ampulex compressa) and its zombie cockroach. I won’t go into which party is which. But if you (a nation) don’t have foreign policy agency then a short YT video here may help set out the game-play dynamics. https://youtu.be/qN2XMyxAs5o
Whatever ‘stung’ the USA some time back is now hitting on a much bigger global playing field (through them). I suspect the ‘roach’ may win this time. It is called “greed”…
3. “I agree with you that it remains to be seen how it all turns out. …”
There is NO “guarantee that they will necessarily create something all that much better…”
It comes down to a system(s) of viable accountability (culturally contextualised) vs “out-laws” (which are also viable as long as they have a host. Not a right-wrong (or right-left) thing, imo. Just what works best, in situ. If you want a binary, then it’s the common law vs the criminal class. When the criminal classes write the laws then get ready to sell your grandkids as slaves. This is where America has sadly lost it, imo. We need to separate “outputs” from “outcomes”. They are like two driving levers on an olde bulldozer. They are like real and imaginary in complex numbers. Like quantity and quality etc. We need to learn to drive the machine we have made. Unfortunately, we have a world of one-lever (oar) people. And that is by design in many cases – I refer to George Carlin’s views. Odysseus nailed it with the Cyclops (one eyed lacking depth of vision) – become a “no body” and it starts to come into focus … the zero — the “nothing that is” (Robert Kaplan) – makes the number system work.
“For sure it is going to be far more authoritarian, technology driven …”
It is indeed complex (braided) and emergent. The one thing America (of old) had that worked was a sense of pragmatism. Now they just seem to have self-justifying hypnotism and mirror “projection” which confirms they are in a closed system. They have become the modern-day USSR in its decay mode. Some value-systems have nine (missing the mark) “sins” rather than the Western seven. The additional two are “deceit” and “fear”. Guess what is being peddled today mostly? It’s called blind-siding.
Hope it helps unpack some… it may not answer all your questions, but perhaps it has given you some useful insights and references on how to work out your own sense making model(s).
It looks like this thread is now at its end, so this won’t irritate too many.
Ask more if you wish. I’ll look out for it.

Posted by: imo | Jul 12 2022 13:17 utc | 222

The word “critical” in my comment #221 should read “skeptical”.

Posted by: S | Jul 12 2022 13:41 utc | 223

Posted by: imo | Jul 12 2022 13:17 utc | 222
Let’s leave it at that but thank you very much for your thesis-like reply, much of which is over my pay grade!!
Oh – what I meant by the rentier business was that the drive for profit from investment (i.e. money making more money) is as much an imperative in the current western system as any ideology per se. Ideology is often used either to explain what’s going or to persuade people to adopt something new and better (like Marxism or whatever) but generally it doesn’t drive as much as people give it credit for – except when movements turn into cults. I think the profit motive itself, esp. on the Big Finance level, is often what drives things.
Put another way: once you have accumulated significant funds, assets, operations, political connection and so on then you have to at the very least conserve them which usually means putting them to work to generate further profits lest they decline due to inertia, inflation or simply changing times. So money creates a need for generating more. This is not necessarily a bad thing but the material nature of the pursuit tends to erode principles and coarsen society at large over time.
Which is where I think we are now.
Again, thanks.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 12 2022 16:07 utc | 224

There’s no “c” in “grok”! 😮
Sorry, seeing it I couldn’t let it pass 🙂
[But there’s plenty to grok in C 😛 (not that I do)]

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Jul 12 2022 16:25 utc | 225

Imo:
after finishing reading I want to thank you for the comments, interesting and valuable and some of it is new to me and likely other readers as well. It is also nice to see someone use this definition of “moral hazard” 🙂

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Jul 12 2022 16:49 utc | 226

@ Peter AU1 | Jul 12 2022 6:11 utc | 177
hi peter… sorry i missed your note.. we had visitors…. i think i can see everything on your vk page… thanks for sharing all this!

Posted by: james | Jul 12 2022 16:54 utc | 227

@226 — happy to share my quirky views. All based on studying many others on several cycles of the not-so-merry-go-round.
@225 — I agree, but it was a cut&paste.
@224 — sorry it read as too much — but they are the ponds I’ve have fished from.
I think b.’s recent post on Michael Hudson covers your issue about money and accumulation very well. There simply needs to be a public service ethic at the top together with a sense of common identity that extends beyond the tribe and nation, but not by losing them.

Posted by: imo | Jul 12 2022 17:14 utc | 228

Posted by: imo | Jul 12 2022 17:14 utc | 228
Didn’t mean to suggest it was too much, not at all!

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 12 2022 20:36 utc | 229

@S, I appreciate your observations/pushback and am glad there’s a cadre of old-timers that don’t care for the Jew-baiting. Of course a permissive commenting policy is understandable, but I didn’t see any pushback against those posts and figured it meant they were a “respected point of view” around here. Ditto on the call for skepticism which is always a good thing.
I disagree that “my side” is broadly more credulous than “your side” – actually somewhat of a fool’s game and pointless in my opinion to try and suss out which side of an issue has more fools on it. There is plenty of mindless parroting of propaganda on both sides, but the real point is – issue by issue, what is the accurate info and the good ideas? The post here included what I think is some egregiously wrong information on the Kremenchuk mall strike, and an actually disgusting attempt to rewrite the history of atrocities committed at Bucha. Again, with zero critique of either falsehood across hundreds of comments. If your point is to defend this community as something other than an echo chamber of pro-Russian propaganda, “we’re no worse than the most gullible pro-Ukrainian folks” may be accurate but is hardly inspiring.
I also disagree that “fighting Nazism” has anything at all to do with Russia’s invasion. It’s a classic war of an empire projecting hard military power to prevent its sphere of influence from diminishing, in this case via Ukraine shifting gradually toward European economic and cultural integration. That’s a story that has played out countless times throughout history, and totally consistent with recent Russian history in Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, etc. A nation that wanted to fight Nazism certainly wouldn’t enlist the Wagner Group in that effort, or let it exist in the first place. And literally the only thing that could bring the extreme-right in Ukraine to actual political relevance (after their united bloc of Azov/Right Sector/etc. polled 2% in 2019 elections resulting in no seats in Parliament) would be the sort of martyrdom narratives that defending against a full-blown invasion can create.

Posted by: yenwoda | Jul 13 2022 2:02 utc | 230

It looks like a new tag team of organised hasbara apologists has arrived at the bar to reinforce one another. Each one with a new historical distortion, ‘justification’ and drive by smear against the legitimate Palestinian resistance.

Posted by: Paul | Jul 14 2022 1:35 utc | 231

Jason | Jul 12 2022 0:46 utc | 147
“……Russia should change battle strategy from a land grabbing strategy to an attrition strategy to erode Ukraine’s military.
Lost land can be retaken by Ukraine (at least on paper) but lost militarily men can’t be replaced.”
Helll…ooo. Rip Van Winkle.
Did you just wake up from a western msm stupor/coma and decide you’d find yourself a rather obscure analysis blog, and feel “inspired” to post nonsense?.
Did you?
Please do not comment again until you have watched a full week of Military Summary channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUnc496-PPmFZVKlYxUnToA/videos
His back catalogue will further educate you.
And for extra credit:
Brian Berletic at New Atlas.
https://www.youtube.com/c/TheNewAtlas/videos

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 14 2022 3:47 utc | 232

US Weapons supplied to Ukraine go to Kurdish YPG for fight against Turkey, and the USA does know it.
https://www.anti-spiegel.ru/2022/an-die-ukraine-gelieferte-waffen-gehen-fuer-den-kampf-gegen-die-tuerkei-an-die-kurdische-ypg/

Posted by: Peter | Jul 15 2022 20:55 utc | 233

Carlotta Gall wrote the NYT article on Chasiv Yar that said there were soldiers living there.
Sandy Gall’s daughter; both are legendary reporters- and tell the truth. Look them up in Wikipedia to see some of the truths they’ve told about Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Times is not my favorite newspaper but the fact that Carlotta is now reporting from the Ukraine tells me the NYT may be moving toward more ballanced reporting

Posted by: DaveM | Jul 16 2022 23:43 utc | 234