Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 21, 2022

Australia Finally Recognizes That The AUKUS Deal Makes No Sense At All

In September 2021 Australia, the UK and the U.S. announced AUKUS, a new alliance under which Australia would buy nuclear submarines from either the U.S. or UK and ditch its contract for French diesel driven u-boats.

I spelled out the details and the negative consequence of the deal:

To Protect Itself From U.S. Hostility Australia Decides To Buy U.S. Submarines

This is a huge but short term win for the U.S. with an also-ran booby price for Britain and a strategic loss of sovereignty and budget control for Australia.

It is another U.S. slap into the face of France and the European Union. The deal will piss off New Zealand, Indonesia and of course China. It will upset the international nuclear non proliferation regime and may lead to the further military nuclearization of South Korea and Japan.

It was easy to predict that the deal would screw up the development schedule of the Australian navy. It would obviously also cost much more money than its budget can provide:

But there are also many negative issues with nuclear boats. They are larger and more expensive than conventional ones. The cost nearly 50% more. They also require dedicated infrastructure and very specialized nuclear training for the crews. Australia has neither nor can it supply the necessary fuel for the nuclear reactors.
The first of the French boats for Australia was expected to be ready in the early 2030s. There will now be a long delay of perhaps a decade for Australia to get new boats.

Its current Collins class will require more than an ordinary refit to be sustained that long. That is going to be expensive. The Germans may want to jump into that gap by offering their Type 214 submarines with hydrogen driven propulsion. While these boats are much smaller they offer a long endurance, can be supplied reasonably fast and come for a much cheaper price than the nuclear driven ones.

Altogether I do not see any advantage for Australia in this move.

Australia has since elected a new government. It recognizes what a mess the deal created. There will be no new submarines until at least 2040. They will likely be super expensive. There is an urgent need to look for alternatives:

Australia has close to zero chance of getting a submarine from the United States’ current program, experts say, as yet another report shows the US is struggling to meet its own needs.
Former defence minister Peter Dutton suggested the US might give Australia a couple of its boats, a suggestion that was largely dismissed.
Marcus Hellyer, a senior analyst at Australian Strategic Policy Institute said the “only way” Australia would get a nuclear-powered submarine by 2030 would be if the US gave us “one of their own boats”. “But their numbers are declining when they want an increase,” he said.
Hellyer said that meant any submarine Australia would buy was likely to be from the next generation of US submarines, which will start being bought in the mid 2030s and are set to be vastly more expensive.

He has estimated, based on the current model, the entire program to build eight submarines will cost $171bn in the end, including inflation.

That is Aus$ 21.4 billion per boat. If those boats will be build at all:

Rex Patrick, former South Australian senator and submariner, said Australia “will not get submarines off the US line”. “The US engage in operations all around the world and they’re important operations and the US Navy is not going to cede a capability so that Australia can get submarines [so they can] dip their toe in the water,” he said.

“All the publicly available material points to the US not providing us with a submarine.”

Hellyer said there was also “no way” the UK could spare a submarine as it is only building seven of the Astute class (which is one of the options being considered for Australia) before it moves to a new model. “The UK is currently wrapping up its Astute program,” he said. “They need to wrap that up to transfer the resources to the Dreadnaught program.

“They have no capacity to build us submarines.”

More money, much more, could probably solve those production problem. But the Australian navy does not have that.

My solution to the obvious problem was to let the German's jump into the gap and to ask them for hydrogen driven Type 214 submarines. This could even be build in Australia. It seems that the Australians have now recognized this:

Both Patrick and Hellyer said buying a conventional (non-nuclear powered) submarine from another country “off the shelf” would be another way to fill the capability gap.

Defence minister, Richard Marles, has consistently said he is keeping an open mind on the solution to the capability gap.

“As we go through the process now of looking at which solution we pursue, we also want not only to determine that solution but to work out is there any way in which that can be brought online much sooner than the 2040s and to the extent any capability gap is there, what are the means by which we can close it?” he said earlier this month.

“None of those questions have obvious answers. It’s part of the work we’re doing right now. But as we announce in the early part of next year as to what capability – or what submarine – we will be pursuing, we really want to have answers to all of those at that point in time.”

The answers are obvious. Ditch the whole AUKUS deal and buy the German U-boats.

The real reason for the deal might well have been the U.S. wish for a port and base in Australia from where it can send its own nuclear submarines to harass China.

The offer to Australia to buy nuclear submarines was likely only made to remove Australian public resistance to the stationing of nuclear submarines (with nuclear weapons) on the continent.

Australia will be better off without those.

Posted by b on July 21, 2022 at 14:42 UTC | Permalink

next page »

the empire has no friends, only cannon fodder deposits.

Posted by: Mathaus | Jul 21 2022 15:05 utc | 1

I'm pretty sure that, just like surface vessels, submarines have been defeated.

The technology is based upon resonating the slot antenna cavity a submarine creates when surrounded by water by exciting the ocean with ELF radiation and detecting the transmitted harmonics from orbit.

The USA and China have been ringing the earth's crust like a bell for some time now.

Posted by: too scents | Jul 21 2022 15:11 utc | 2

Or say sorry to the French, relaunch the French contract, save the penalty payments, and eat humble pie. I'm not sure Germany will go behind their ally's back.

Posted by: laguerre | Jul 21 2022 15:15 utc | 3

Does it not take Russian energy to build German U-boats?

Guess with Russian energy taken off line, the boats will have to be built somewhere else ........maybe China or Russia??????????

What a complete cluster-F!!!!!!!!

Have western humans lost their minds!

Posted by: James Cook | Jul 21 2022 15:23 utc | 4

US submarine tech is designed to apply maximum economic force.

Posted by: NoOneYouKnow | Jul 21 2022 15:24 utc | 5

The Aussies can buy the French version of the French boats which are Nuke powered.

Posted by: Exile | Jul 21 2022 15:29 utc | 6

@7 So are the contracts. Hopefully the Ozzies read the fine print.

Posted by: dh | Jul 21 2022 15:35 utc | 7

The answers are obvious. Ditch the whole AUKUS deal and buy Chinese boats. China's a close neighbour and Australia's best hope of defence against the US and Japan.
Of course North Korea is also an option, it specialises in arms production and would be a new market for Aussie farmers and livestock producers.
Memo tp Canberra: Think Local!

Posted by: bevin | Jul 21 2022 15:44 utc | 8

I thought the whole stopgap plan was to "lease" US subs with US crews to Australia which would conveniently require basing those US subs in Australia. Americans love "rent to own" schemes, lots of profits to skim in those.

Posted by: Lex | Jul 21 2022 15:49 utc | 9

Australia doesn't need any submarines. There is no threat to Australia from any other country.

Posted by: Dave Pollard | Jul 21 2022 15:58 utc | 10

Found that hilarious gem in the previous thread.

Posted by: eyeswideopen | Jul 21 2022 16:01 utc | 11

It has always been my suspicion that the AUKUS deal was agreed to by Australia in exchange for Vaccines.

If one remembers, it was announced out of the blue and with little attention to diplomacy and media rollout. It was right at a time when, having gambled on a policy of isolation and containment in combating Covid-19, once it spread to Sydney and beyond, the Morrison Government was faced with a pandemic on the loose, no vaccines, unpopular lockdowns and a political and economic nightmare.

Enter Joe Biden and Boris Johnson, and the sudden miracle appearance of millions of doses of Pfizer, Moderna (US) and Oxford-Astra Zeneca (UK). At the height of the pandemic, it is fair to assume those does were promised to be delivered elsewhere. It was even reported that former PM Kevin Rudd, another China hawk, had contacted Pfizer CEO directly and made a number of other calls for assistance.

Even among like minded Anglo Saxon allies, you don't get to jump the queue without offering something useful in return...

Posted by: Et Tu | Jul 21 2022 16:02 utc | 12

@eyeswideopen | Jul 21 2022 16:01 utc | 15


A Chinese-made ship was at the centre of the US Navy's salvage operation last week to recover the wreck of an F-35C fighter jet from the South China Sea, according to Chinese media.

Personnel pulled the wreckage of the fighter jet from 3,780 metres (12,400 feet) below the surface on Wednesday using lift lines from the crane of the diving support construction vessel (DSCV) Picasso, the US Seventh Fleet said last week.

Posted by: too scents | Jul 21 2022 16:11 utc | 13

Don't you need power in order to bend and weld steel? Just saying maybe Europe ain't the answer. Back to home grown makes sense. If not Russia has lots of power and makes a pretty nice submarine. :-)

Posted by: BraveNewWorld | Jul 21 2022 16:36 utc | 14

b: "Australia Finally Recognizes That The AUKUS Deal Makes No Sense At All"

Maybe, but don't hold your breath waiting to write the headline: Australia finally recognizes that geostrategic or defence alliance with the US or UK makes no sense at all.

(says an Aussie)

Posted by: Andrew Celestina | Jul 21 2022 16:50 utc | 15

Pardon me for this lame attempt at humour, but this deal has more curses around it than Tutankhamun's grave!
Who signed it? Scott Morrison (RIP) Bojo (RIP) and Biden (RI… hum not yet).

Posted by: Nanker | Jul 21 2022 16:51 utc | 16


I deleted a bunch of off-topic comments.

Posted by: b | Jul 21 2022 16:56 utc | 17

I know, how about a LNG powered sub.

Posted by: par4 | Jul 21 2022 17:00 utc | 18

@ "Who signed it? Scott Morrison (RIP) Bojo (RIP) and Biden (RI… hum not yet)."

Posted by: Nanker | Jul 21 2022 16:51 utc | 17

Well, Biden just got diagnosed with Covid...

May he rest in the same kind of peace he provided Ukrainians with.

Posted by: Et Tu | Jul 21 2022 17:26 utc | 19

AUKUS is actually far worse than b's conclusions might suggest. The problem with Oz Mock Democracy was that both main parties, Liberal & Labor, are utterly corrupt and the process for selecting election candidates is opaque and secretive. This is because both are OWNED by their DONORS and DONORS rhymes with OWNERS and means exactly the same thing.

We half-fixed the problem in May this year by giving Scum Mo's Liberals the heave-ho. But until we get rid of Albo's pro-Israel liars, dimwits and traitors, the the chances of democracy flourishing ìn Oz will remain remote.

Independent candidates representing their voters are the only sane option.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 21 2022 17:37 utc | 20

And there are the many violations of the NPT China constantly points to:

China on Wednesday released a research report entitled The Nuclear Proliferation Risk of the Nuclear-powered Submarines Collaboration in the Context of AUKUS, the first report published by Chinese academic institutes to objectively analyze the serious risks of nuclear proliferation and multiple hazards caused by the AUKUS nuclear-powered submarine collaboration through detailed data and case studies....

Weapons-grade nuclear materials are the basis for nuclear weapons. Both the US and the British nuclear-powered submarines use weapons-grade highly enriched uranium, Li Chijiang, CACDA vice president and secretary-general, told the Global Times on Wednesday at the press conference.

According to experts' analyses, the US and the UK will build eight nuclear-powered submarines for Australia, involving the transfer of tons of weapons-grade nuclear materials enough to manufacture nearly a hundred nuclear weapons, marking the first time since the NPT came into force that nuclear-weapon states will transfer a large amount of weapons-grade nuclear materials to a non-nuclear-weapon state, setting a bad example and creating a serious risk of nuclear proliferation, Li said.

The AUKUS collaboration will damage the global strategic balance and stability, encourage other countries to join the nuclear arms race, escalate geopolitical tensions and bring the Asia-Pacific region to a wrong path of confrontation and splitting-up, completely opposite to the common appeal for development and prosperity by countries in the region, Li said.

Many advancements in diesel sub tech renders them better than nuke powered given the reality of naval engagement today, plus they're much cheaper to build and maintain.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 21 2022 17:51 utc | 21

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 21 2022 17:51 utc | 22

Sorry not first instance, US to Israel was the first...

Posted by: mtw | Jul 21 2022 17:54 utc | 22

Listen, this AUKUS thingy was never meant to go anywhere except as some latest and greatest bold headline. The Americans love to throw out these acronyms like BBB (Build Better Back), IPEF (Indo-Pacific Economic Framework), QUAD (Quadrilateral Security Dialogue), etc., etc., etc.. After awhile they move on to the next headline acronym!

If it's anything substantial in this AUKUS deal, it is to provide the US Navy with "dedicated infrastructure" in Australia for USN nuclear subs. And of course to rattle China.

Anyways, 2030 or 2040 is a long time from now. The critical issue of Taiwan will have been settled by the time this AUKUS deal nets a single nuclear sub.

AUKUS is a non sequitur, as they say.

Carl Zha nails it (thanks to eyeswideopen):

Posted by: Sam Smith | Jul 21 2022 17:57 utc | 23

The destruction of European economy is deliberate. Listen
to German Greens. Practically telling Germans to suck it up and accept changed lufestyle. Perhaps Davos thing is not a fantasy.
The idea, that we shall be poor, own nothing but happy is
the path decided for the billions while a golden billion lives opulently.

It is the only way out of the indebtedness if all Western countries.
Germany was an engine puling Europe out of its malaise. No more. Deluberate suicide of German industry and exports are the signs of
things to come. With no German locomotive - European debtor
nations have to face greatly reduced standard of living.

Thosecwho indebted them — will pull ahead. But not for long. In theory this “downsizing” looks doable. But lufe is not thst predictable. Ultimatelly blame game will start. Trump’s sin is — start of the finger pounting at economic and foreign policy failures, Yet, both parties consuder this dangerous to their status quo.

But ince consequences become reality — can they blame Russia for their idiotic decisions ?

Posted by: Bianca | Jul 21 2022 18:00 utc | 24

The silliest aspect of the dumped French submarine deal, aka snubmarines, apart from pissing off France (or should that be pissing on France?) is that the subs ordered by Òz were diesel versions of a standard French Nuclear-powered sub design!!???

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 21 2022 18:15 utc | 25

Just a crazy idea, but to fix Labor parties everywhere how about strictly restricting candidates to people who, you know, have labored. Maybe to get on the ballot as a Labor candidate mandate that the individual must have spent a decade or two as a real blue collar working person. Why are Labor parties always led by asshats who have never in their lives held down a real job?

Venezuela’s Maduro was a commercial driver. How many countries’ presidents have actually done something productive and useful like that in their lives?

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 21 2022 18:22 utc | 26

@too scents #2
I guess my question is just how different ELF sound is vs. regular SONAR sound.
Aren't all submarines covered with anechoic dampening materials precisely to diminish sound profiles?

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 21 2022 18:24 utc | 27

@c1ue | Jul 21 2022 18:24 utc | 28


ELF isn't sound, it is electromagentic.

Unlike the tragedy at Arecibo, China has been investing heavily in radio research.

Posted by: too scents | Jul 21 2022 18:35 utc | 28

Posted by: William Gruff @ #27.
(Labor candidates should have laboured)

Great idea! But we probly need to expunge tr-r-raditional (bribed) Labor Parties for it to work as intended.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 21 2022 18:43 utc | 29

A rumour in the Australian services was that the French boats, at the right time, would be flipped to nuclear power.

That the French redesign their nuclear boats for diesel power was always curious. It makes much more sense, explains the well justified French outrage.

There was politics involved perhaps too, and a former disliked PM and his cohort of defence and foreign ministers, who loved trips to Paris, had left politics when the cancel decision was announced.

Posted by: sybil | Jul 21 2022 18:48 utc | 30

Nuclear, diesel… so unsustainable and polluting. Why dont we promote subs that are solar and wind powered instead of these?

Posted by: alek_a | Jul 21 2022 18:50 utc | 31

Hoarsewhisperer @30

Yeah, Labor parties pretty much need the exact opposite kind of purges that the British Labor Party has done over the years.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 21 2022 18:54 utc | 32

alek_a @ 32

Come on man! Submarines should be hydroelectric! They are already in the water, after all.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 21 2022 19:01 utc | 33

As far as detecting submarines goes, the Chinese have leapfrogged into the lead with quantum entanglement radar/lidar. In addition to being able to easily track stealth aircraft, QE lidar can also apparently see clearly through hundreds of feet of water.

The Chinese demonstrated this a few years back so I would bet they are at least close to having practical QE lidar systems in production by now.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 21 2022 19:20 utc | 34

So with 14 million taxpayers and 21.4 million $$ per boat isn’t that $$1529 for each taxpayer? Then there’s exchange rate, inflation, overruns, and just the beginning- there’s operating costs. Really don’t think Aussies would want to support that expressed that way since all that money is for what ultimate purpose exactly?

Posted by: Edward | Jul 21 2022 19:44 utc | 35

As long as Australians can get their Fosters or Castlemaine XXXX 6-pack,then I don't see a revolution in the country.

$21 Billion? GTFOOH.

Andrei M reckons Russia could do it for 10% of that. Yeah, it would rustle some feathers but he who bails first, bails best.


Posted by: WTFUD | Jul 21 2022 19:52 utc | 36

I wonder if the Australian boats would be subject to the same Under-Water Mountain Syndrome as the US ones? (UWMS)

Posted by: Stonebird | Jul 21 2022 20:03 utc | 37

The title of B's post is "Australia Finally Recognizes That The AUKUS Deal Makes No Sense At All"

I would ask B to withdraw that claim.

As an Australian citizen, I have seen no public statement by the new Labor government headed by the plastic professional politician, Anthony Albanese, to withdraw or disclaim the AUKUS treaty.


I would claim the opposite, the new-formed Australian government is more than happy to be just as vassal as the previous government headed by the mendacious Scott Morrison. They know what happened to Gough Whitlam, who wanted to have an sovereign and independent foreign policy, not written on a Washington desk for a change.,7029 (Pilger) or (you may dislike the site as I do, but it's straight forward explanation)

Kevin Rudd had to be replaced because was pro-Chinese (fluent in Mandarin). Which is only sensible since China is Australia's largest trading partner, but... Oh no, can't have that, hence Julia Gillard.

The history of Australian submarines is littered with politics.

The Oberon class of submarines were great machines, but horribly dated. The successor, the Collins class, was bought off the drawing board before the thing had even had a model hull tested in a design pool. Was not sufficiently quiet, and essentially had to be re-designed after being built. The major win was that Australia got to develop a submarine-building/maintaining 'industry' in South Australia (the then Australian Defence Minister who approved of the acquistion, the Right Honourable Kim Beazley, had his parliamentary seat in South Australia).

The replacement of the Collins class was allegedly a proper due process. Apparently the Japanese thought they had the contract with their Soryu class due to a handshake agreement with the then mysogynistic Prime Minister Tony Abbot. So much so that the Japanese didn't even bother to turn up to the conference that finalized the contractual details with other competitors.

Unfortunately for the Nipponese, the Australian Defence bureaucrat that developed the submarine replacement process resigned, and was promptly head-hunted by the French company Naval Group (DNCS). Which has a dodgy history of bribery. And who promptly won the contract.

Here's a decent history by Aaron of Sub Brief:

Essentially, the French offered to supply a proto diesel-electric version of their nuclear-powered Rubis/Barracuda class submarine. Aspirational at best. The contract blew out from some 50 billion, to 90 billion.

According to the AUKUS agreement, which seems equivalently aspirational, Australia will buy UK or US nuclear=driven boats. We have no idea which. Probably the stuff that US/UK are looking to retire. Who knows.

I do know we don't need them.

So, B., the new Australian Government has recognized nothing. They still want to be the obsequious Sheriff in SE

Posted by: Ant. | Jul 21 2022 20:17 utc | 38

Well well, an article from b about dear old Oz. It would be well also to add that Marles has integrated the Australian military into the US military to an unprecedented degree.

Australia is a not a sovereign country. Decisions about its military are signed off by the State Dept.

As the USA fades into yesterday's roll of heroes, we in Australia must seize a historical opportunity to obtain and secure a sovereignty as yet unrealized in our 121 year old Federation. Our adolescence in world affairs must end. Nations like China and India would prefer a sovereign Australia detached from the US.

Putin's actions in freeing Russia from the dominance of the finacialized rent-seeking West offer a leadership template.

For this to happen the following must take place:

1. A declaration of strategic neutrality
2. Food and energy autarky
3. Huge investment in solar and nuclear power (Australia has 40% of the world's uranium)
4. Purge of MI5/CIA 5th columnists in the bureaucracy, intelligence and military apparatus
5. Denial of access to territory to any foreign military
6. Australia must develop nuclear weapons. This is not controversial but the sine qua non for sitting at any serious negotiating table.

Australia must take advantage of a weakening USA to seize a rare opportunity to become an independent and sovereign regional energy superpower. If a decisive vision is prepared and delivered we can export cheap plentiful energy to our regional neighbours and establish ourselves as the far eastern end of a Eurasian super trade zone, supplying raw materials, agricultural produce and cheap renewable energy to Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, East Asia.

We can seize it if we can let go of the moral and cultural weight of our colonial past and the insecurities, petty prejudices and chauvinism that stem from it.

It is a dream I have.

Posted by: Patroklos | Jul 21 2022 20:18 utc | 39

Seems Australia and Canada are not real countries.

Were they ever???

Posted by: Comandante | Jul 21 2022 20:24 utc | 40

And just how is Australia to buy submarines from Germany when the German industrial sector is collapsing?

Posted by: Bluedog57 | Jul 21 2022 20:27 utc | 41

Kim Beazley was West Australian, never lived in South Australia nor had a parliamentry seat there.

Posted by: sybil | Jul 21 2022 20:33 utc | 42

@42 Bluedog57

Germany makes very excellent submarines. They have domestic manufacturing. See here, their latest one:

Yes, they aren't the amazing things the US or RF has that get (easily) below 500 metres.

Posted by: Ant. | Jul 21 2022 20:39 utc | 43

The distance from UK to Australia is ~15,300 kilometers.
The distance from US to Australia is ~15,200 kilometers.

It is no use buying a nuclear sub, without hypersonic nukes in it. Anyway, Australia cannot defend itself, if either China (or Indonesia) attacks it. Sure, the US has bases in Japan, but won't be able to do much, as they will be eliminated before Australia.

Posted by: ostro | Jul 21 2022 20:45 utc | 44

@39 sorry but Kevin Rudd is not pro china. he spouts the same spiel about democracy versus Chinese autocracy as the neocons and fake liberals. and about 'unfair' Chinese trade practices. and Chinese aggression in the south China sea. throwaway de rigeur remarkion Uighur oppression too.

the difference with Rudd is merely he is more realistic about China's power and the limits and inefficacy of US power. in short he is only considered pro china bc he is not utterly delusional.

Posted by: mastameta | Jul 21 2022 20:48 utc | 45

@Ant., besides maximum depth the main draw of nuclear vs. diesel-electric ("hydrogen-propelled" is just another way to store the energy to drive the electric motors, still diesel-electric) is submerged range. T-214 can manage something like 500 miles submerged at half the speed a nuke boat can make indefinitely. If you want to patrol the med or north sea, T-214 is more than enough, if you want to patrol a big chunk of the Pacific the benefits of not having to surface every few days and expose your location is obvious. But cost vs. capabilities is always a consideration.

Posted by: yenwoda | Jul 21 2022 20:49 utc | 46

Posted by: Comandante | Jul 21 2022 20:24 utc | 41

If Australia wants to it could be a force to be reckoned with. If only it can rise above petty ambition and US-led parochialism.

Consider this: what if Australia had struck a deal with Japan in 1942? It was not a historical inevitability that we remain with the UK or shift to the US. But our infantile colonial narrow-mindedness, racism and terrible anxiety about our place in the world would have never allowed it.

80 years later we ought not to be held down by this any longer. The proof that we could be sovereign it was shown by Gough Whitlam. He was untimely, but is a model to follow. His great flaw was his belief in the parliamentary system which screwed him. He should have had the Army arrest Kerr in 1975.

Now, a half-century later, can we do it? Not with Albo or the ALP sadly. They are a political class thoroughly integrated into the US alliance. They will have to be purged.

In the 21st century we must become the Russia of the Asia-Pacific. Our regional neighbours are waiting for us to grow up and take this bull by the horns. They need us but they also need us detached from the US.

It is a giant undertaking. To detach Australia from the US will be a great struggle. But a weak, internally collapsing USA, losing its hegemony and unable to project its power provides us with the window through which to reach for, and claim, the stakes of an incredible destiny.

Who's with me on this?

Posted by: Patroklos | Jul 21 2022 20:49 utc | 47

Nice dream Pat. Maybe we have just enough people, resources and (fading) expertise for something like that - I just don’t see any intestinal fortitude or real leadership… like… anywhere here.

Posted by: Rae | Jul 21 2022 20:49 utc | 48

Looks lika anglo-saxon nationalism is playing here. This was not seen there before. Alsou offer probably includes long debt payments as a mechanism of control ower Australia.

Need for Australia to military defend itself from China is mostly theoretical. China historicaly been pretty bad at conquering new lands in far away regions, unlike its nomad neighbours who using chinese technologies conquered mutch. Last Chinese dinasty was made by manchu nomad conquest of Chine untill they were assimilated into chinese population. This added to China hudge manchu owned territories.

Economical and political conquest is possible (like EU do), chinese neighbours are afraid of dependancy but submarines would not protect from this. In Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan etc they don't want chinese dependency becouse they know what they could do.

Posted by: Alef | Jul 21 2022 20:53 utc | 49


Beg yours Sybil. Kim Beazley was indeed WA. Just like the 'Danger to Shipping' Collins.

Still, the prick was a fed. Like all of them. They don't care about you, they just pretend.

Posted by: Ant. | Jul 21 2022 20:54 utc | 50

Posted by: bevin | Jul 21 2022 15:44 utc | 8

The answers are obvious. Ditch the whole AUKUS deal and buy Chinese boats. China's a close neighbour and Australia's best hope of defence against the US and Japan.

It's NOT so simple as abc... Basically the Australians are more racist than the UK, Canadians, and American. They, the 5eyes never trusted the Chinese regardless.. Had Aussie been in good terms with China she would be benefits so much... especially with a population of 1.44 she needs to care, feed its massive mouths. China could participate in Australia development, infrastructure rebuilding Australia - she would now have several high speed trains running or linking north, south, east and west to all your major cities, islands and reforest your vast deserts into flourish farmlands growing wheats, suns flower, tomatoes... Australia would be the food’s basket of the world.... Think about will it ya? Australians vast desert are like China, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Tibet combine..

Did you know China alleviated extreme poverty and no nations on earth since historical recorded...she the best in MAGA projects like bullet trains, 5G and coming 6G, bridges, infrastructures and even space - single handed (with some Soviet helps initially) build a space stations?

While I dun like posting BBC fake news but still the video is real and BBC still jab China at the end..

I'm not a commie and will never be one.... I trust the socialism with Chinese characteristics... China is still a developing nation like many Africans, Latin America and even Asian countries... but on areas she dunno she learns and improves on it... Democracy don't works too many filthy rich and powerful bustards getting away with murder like George Soro, Bill Gate, Biden, Obama, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Trump, even Sir Richard Branson and more...

Posted by: JC | Jul 21 2022 20:57 utc | 51

The Zha video that's been linked a couple of times, as 24 says, nails it.
Some clown called Mick Ryan writes a regular pro Ukraine piece for our government owned propaganda/tabloid rag, the ABC. If that is the quality of our so called defence force then they are of more danger to Australia than any other state apart from the US. If those clowns want to tag along with the US and attack China.... take away their expensive toys, give em snorkel and flippers, tattoo a pirate flag on their backs and toss them in the water.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 21 2022 21:02 utc | 52

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 21 2022 18:22 utc | 27

What you say may have been valid in 1960, but the world has moved on. Firstly there are very few labouring or even blue collar jobs, and those are mostly filled by new immigrants, not yet citizens.

Secondly the unions that do cover such workers would control such people if they did emerge

Thirdly and i know you will object to this (i partly do myself) but now that year 12 education is practically universal, and nearly every school leaver who can read or write goes on to tertiary qualifications (even many teaching students these days, in 1960 would not have passed high school leaving), basically the pool of non immigrant labourers is restricted to those who through lack of academic ability (ie cannot read) or emotional resistance to education will form the ranks of those who have laboured for 10 years. While of course there will be fabulous exceptions, the reality is that most such would not have the skill set to serve in parliament.

Not sure that being a barista through university years quite counts.

I do get where you are coming from, but that solution is not the answer. Somehow you must wrest the control of pre-selections from the parties and the factional system that promotes spineless hacks. Probably encouraging minor parties is the way to go but it has risks. In Australia we have had a spate of such parties arise, and through up odd balls of all kinds. Some (like Jaccqui Lambie) have proved to be much the sort of person you might like - zero education and rough as guts, but in the senate has risen to the occasion and does very well. Possibly Rex Patrick quoted above was OK. Maybe Xenophon. Then there is Pauline, Clive,etc who are bad news.

The Greens of course started out very positively and were a force for good, but now I see them rapidly travelling down the German path.

Posted by: watcher | Jul 21 2022 21:39 utc | 53

The US has three dogs - one that barks at China, one that barks at Russia, and one that can’t stop barking. Turns out none of these dogs has any teeth.

Posted by: Moses22 | Jul 21 2022 21:44 utc | 54

Posted by: Ant. | Jul 21 2022 20:17 utc | 39
All pretty true, but Beazely was from WA not SA. Not his own seat at risk.

Posted by: Patroklos | Jul 21 2022 20:18 utc | 40
Sadly also all true. Marles is more pro US than the US. So was Beazely for that matter.

Rudd tried to be independent and failed hopelessly

Posted by: watcher | Jul 21 2022 21:47 utc | 55

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 21 2022 21:02 utc | 53

If I were PM in the Gough mold I would immediately purge the military and then use it to purge the political class and bureaucracy of all Mick Ryan, sinophobic, conservative, jingo-wowser types (all boomers regardless). The Chinese and US can no more take us on than the Japanese could——if we were serious about sovereignty... IF. Australia's terrain, like Afghanistan, would defeat any invader.

The Aussie public is the hurdle. The US would have to be incapacitated and the Australian public faced with no big Anglo brother. Politically that's when we say: from now on WE are the hegemon. Do we have the guts? (Cue Rose Tattoo and AC/DC).

Posted by: Patroklos | Jul 21 2022 21:54 utc | 56

The French contract was a rip-off, Australia was looking to pay $89 Bn AUS for a few conventional subs, and another $150 Bn to sustain them.

The new plan seems an even bigger rip-off, with absolutely nothing going for it but downside.

Posted by: ZX | Jul 21 2022 21:54 utc | 57

"The answers are obvious. Ditch the whole AUKUS deal and buy the German U-boats."
No, the answer is ditch the AUKUS deal and then don't buy any submarines.
Stop pretending, Australia. Get out of Five Eyes (as if you would/as if you could) and embrace your position as an English speaking Asian nation. You have a future there. You have no future elsewhere.

Posted by: Hal Duell | Jul 21 2022 21:54 utc | 58

Posted by: mastameta | Jul 21 2022 20:48 utc | 46

You are a little unfair about Rudd. He was in his first two years quite pro China and was trying to influence Hillary Clinton to welcome china into the world and drop the containment policy. (His enemies called him out on this). His daughter is married to a Chinese citizen and lives there much of the time (or did).

For whatever reason (probably fear) he seemed to turn on China in his last 6 months possibly in a foolish attempt to squash the Murdoch press stories about how pro-Chinese he was.

It did not work for him and he was replaced by the CIA approved Julia who was so far up the back of Obama that I cringed. We now have US military bases on our soil, something, not even Menzies or John Howard would have allowed.

Posted by: watcher | Jul 21 2022 21:56 utc | 59

The acronym AUKUS is a bit like FUBAR or SNAFU. It reflects the total incompetence of the leaders of Western countries and the associated slow paupering and loss of sovereignty of these countries.

Posted by: Moses22 | Jul 21 2022 21:56 utc | 60

Posted by: Patroklos | Jul 21 2022 21:54 utc | 57

Sensible but it will not happen in my lifetime.

Unless of course there is a hot war between US?China & Russia which leads to severe losses in the USA, such that it has to withdraw bases from Japan and elsewhere. And Australia miraculously survives.

Only then will Australia realise it is an adult and must make its own way in the world. Sadly our once fine reputation as a genuinely fair country with a good human rights record, has been trashed, especially in the last 20 years. This will make it harder for us to regain a place in the world.

Posted by: watcher | Jul 21 2022 22:06 utc | 61

lets not forget no politician or journalist will touch the issue that australia buys nuclear powered and nuclear weapon capable subs. so at what point do they slip in the nukes which would be against their doctrine and a first. that day will come and ir will be lauded as some strategic necessity but wont be debated

Posted by: hankster | Jul 21 2022 22:16 utc | 62

As an Aussie its pretty clear the problem is an excessive number of morons in Canberra. How embarrassing.

Posted by: Joe | Jul 21 2022 22:53 utc | 63

Australia has been a vassal state for the US for years going back to the 1950s during the Menzies (prime minister) era. Anyone who wants to know how this happened should read Brian Toohey's "Secret, The Making of Australia's Security State".

While I held out hope for the new Labor government it appears at this stage they are also US sycophants and utter yes men, as witnessed by defence minister Marles' recent trip to the US. When prime minister Albanese went to Europe, G9, and NATO, he ticked all the right boxes to appease the US military masters, ie Russia is bad, and China is bad etc. He even went to visit Zelensky offering more money and equipment for the US proxy war there. No independent thinking from him, and he still gets his advice from the same advisers as the previous government used including the US military-industrial donor's ASPI that churns our anti-China propaganda. Albanese's knowledge on China or Russia or geopolitics in general is zilch or parochial. The only thing better is they don't shout out with a megaphone from the sidelines to castigate the 'evil' countries as the previous government did.

My view is that Australia is now so tied to the US's military demands that we are being prepared to be the Pacific version of Ukraine where the US can continue its proxy wars against China. We are not even allowed to know what the US bases do here, yet we are targets in any war with China.

Australia has irritated China over the last few years with its megaphone commentary, and continues to do so (albeit with less volume), even though it is our largest trading partner. Yellow peril and McCarthyism is still easily milked here; we have the worst right wing pro-US government propaganda media in the world, and Australia has a shocking history of bad treatment meted out to people of Chinese ethnicity. In the early days of last Century an entire 'White Australia Policy' was created mainly to keep Chinese people out.

We talk big but only have 68 tanks for the entire country, and we are buying relatively small fleet of F-35s that the US will have control over flying.

Australia is now US-tralia.

Posted by: George | Jul 21 2022 23:13 utc | 64

The order of letters in the acronym AUKUS is incorrect. In order of rank it should be US, UK and then A. USUKA. Thus becoming a factually correct political statement as well.

Posted by: Alex in Oz | Jul 21 2022 23:24 utc | 66

@65 I think a lot of Australians are afraid of losing their national identity if they get too integrated with China. This is seen as racism.

Still Australia has about 5% Chines (heritage) population. There are 9 Asian-Australian MPs in Parliament I think. Try getting permanent residency in PRC as a gweilo. Citizenship....forget it.

Posted by: dh | Jul 21 2022 23:37 utc | 67

@ Posted by: Joe | Jul 21 2022 22:53 utc | 64

"As an Aussie its pretty clear the problem is an excessive number of morons in Canberra."

I don't recall a time when that was not the case, though i do miss a time when at least some policies were better thought out.

Posted by: Et Tu | Jul 21 2022 23:44 utc | 68

It's one thing for the Albanese govt to recognise that the AUKUS nuclear subs deal was a bad deal - heck, nearly everyone except the then Morrison govt recognised it was a bad deal back in September last year when the inked thumbprints were barely dry and stopped smudging on the document where Canberra had to sign - but it is another thing for Canberra to back away from it without being accused of breaking its commitment and being less than loyal to its puppet-masters in Washington and London. What punishments might apply if Canberra backed away from the deal and decided to buy diesel-powered subs from elsewhere? Will France be magnanimous and "let bygones be bygones" if we Australians were to crawl back and try to revive any part of the previous agreement to build subs in Adelaide? Would Australia really be allowed to buy German subs by the US even if Canberra were able to back out of the AUKUS deal and weather any criticism in doing so?

Posted by: Jen | Jul 21 2022 23:47 utc | 69

Its highly unlikely the US will allow Australia to buy German subs. Thats like saying the US will allow Zelensky to broker a peace deal with Russia, it isnt going to happen. Its a profound thought the US are simply dangling nuclear subs with no intention to ever supply them as a roundabout way to build nuclear sub ports in Australia.

Posted by: Joe | Jul 22 2022 0:02 utc | 70

Patroklos | Jul 21 2022 21:54 utc | 57

10 years ago, the majority of people I talked to thought the US was the main threat to world peace. After non stop anti Russia anti China propaganda in the media, those same people now think we need the US for protection in the big bad world.

Media is a big issue, the there is the spooks and military that would be required to back a sovereign government. Where are their loyalties. The spooks will be thoroughly integrated (for want of a better word) with the US and Brit spooks.

I think we will be going down with the good ship USS Titanic. This country, and most western countries for that matter will have to go through a Russian 90's style era before people will awake.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 22 2022 0:09 utc | 71

Alex in Oz | Jul 21 2022 23:24 utc | 67

As some also said at the time: given France would seek compensation for the whole cancelled deal it could also be called 'FAUKUS'. Which is very true.

Jobs for the boys were also a feature with the French subs deal - even Peter Costello and Morrison's mate David Gazzard have been reported to have made millions out of the French deal before the Liberals canned it. (Source: Kangaroo Court of Australia).

Turnbull was worried about challenging Australians attitudes to nuclear powered military subs, but Morrison just ran roughshod over this by signing up to AUKUS without giving Australian people any say in the matter.

We also irritated China even further buy shifting from defensive Collins class submarines to hunt and attack class submarines that could easily hang out in the seas close to China.

Posted by: George | Jul 22 2022 0:09 utc | 72

Unfortunately Australia still relates mostly to our two grandfathers, US and UK. While indigenous Australians have been here for 50,000 years or more, the colonial development started by the British in 1788, makes it a relatively recently formed Western country. It is thus very young as a country in that respect.

Given we rejected becoming a republic (due to Howard’s stitch-up referendum) I think Australia has still not grown up, and neither is it independent nor in control of its own sovereignty. We even had a government sacked by Britain - so much for respecting our Australian ‘democracy’. Now the US has the upper hand as Britain recedes, but every time the British royalty says a word it’s plastered over our media ad nauseam.

Ironically, although China was cited over and over again by the appallingly anti-Chinese media as the country that was taking over Australia through foreign investment, it was never higher than 9th on the list while the US is Australia’s number one foreign investor at nearly AUD$ 1 trillion, and not long followed after by the UK and even tiny Belgium.

I think many Australians still love to vote for paternal figures so they can feel daddy is looking after them and they can then go to the beach or footy and forget about politics, or not even think about it at all. We've seen these paternalistic figures with Menzies, Howard, Hawke (to some degree), Bjelke- Peterson (“don’t you worry about that”) and the most recent daggy-daddy Morrison.

Posted by: George | Jul 22 2022 0:34 utc | 73

Too Late.

GBRits need AUS to Base their Ops from.

Posted by: IronForge | Jul 22 2022 0:45 utc | 74

AUKUS is for containing China following the Indo-Pacific Strategy… but China is slowly breaching that containment in some small island nations. The Solomon Islands are the latest example. I predict that in a not so distant future, AUKUS will enforce the containment strategy by military means…. possibly an invasion of some islands… sparking off a protracted offshore conflict with China.

Posted by: Adam Troy | Jul 22 2022 0:47 utc | 75

My guess was always that the submarines were irrelevant to the deal. The USA got basing privileges and the approval to immediately start construction. And it helped to formally cement the war-time alliance. But the subs were always a distraction, because they won't be done until long after the coming war between USA and China has begun, and probably only after its already over. Subs that won't arrive for 10 years aren't worth a whole lot when the USA is trying to start the war this year. Those bases have some value in the immediate future, but not the subs.

The only people to whom the subs were not irrelevant were the owners of the French shipyards who had a $Billion contract that would have lasted them until Doomsday yanked (pun intended) away from them.

Posted by: McHale | Jul 22 2022 0:49 utc | 76

@74 I know how touchy Ozzies can be about these matters. I have discussed it with them (at great personal risk) in outback hotel bars. It used to be OK, for instance , to talk about 'yellow peril' but it's probably safer these days to say 'national identity'.

So what is this identity? Older Australians take some pride in providing troops for British and American wars. But now it seems to have become a source of national shame. Times change. As for the indigenous Australians (aka Abos) I think it's just something you have to live with.

Posted by: dh | Jul 22 2022 0:52 utc | 77

I was thinking of re-reading "On the Beach." But it appears that the Aussies prefer to be on the front-lines for World War III. That's the Gallipoli Spirit, mates. Ours is but to do and die and all that.

Some advice, from a famous novel. "The enemy is anyone who is trying to get you killed. No matter which uniform they wear." --Yossarian, Catch-22.

Posted by: McHale | Jul 22 2022 0:59 utc | 78

Maybe a tad OT but if polls are to be believed, it appears that liz truffle is to be the new tory "leader," or she promises, to be the leader of the free world.

Gad, how bad can it get but maybe this is what is necessary to take the Uk all the way down after bozo attempted to do that; prob no change in policy on the ukraine disaster.

Posted by: Taras77 | Jul 22 2022 1:07 utc | 79

Australian elections are apparently just like American elections ... nothing changes except the hairstyle of the puppet.

Welcome to 'democracy'. What the people think, what the people want, does not matter a bleep, and not only is their no change, but no hope of even any hope of change.

Posted by: McHale | Jul 22 2022 1:08 utc | 80

Australia is a neo-colony of US imperialism. Albanese, the Machiavelli of Marrickville, our current useless Prime Minister visited the US some thirty years ago and on his own breathless description was 'briefed' by the US State Department in Hawaii on his way home. A nice touch by the Americans. Surf, sand and sedition against my country. He broke the Austrailian grovelling record from a standing start by kissing the backside of Biden in Japan two days after his election. We dont need subs. We need some guts and to become an independent sovereign nation. The US is an empire and Australia is one of its colonies. The rest follows.

Posted by: Paul McGrory | Jul 22 2022 1:08 utc | 81

Alex in Oz | Jul 21 2022 23:24 utc | 67
I'm gonna get USUKA - good summary of US foreign policy

Posted by: rjb1.5 | Jul 22 2022 1:11 utc | 82

"...This country, and most western countries for that matter will have to go through a Russian 90's style era before people will awake."

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 22 2022 0:09 utc | 72

They did. You will. We will. Have hope! It is already beginning. In a different way, an Aussie way there, not Asian. Not Western. Unique. Beautiful. Be Aussie. God bless. You look after each other in the bad times; we all do. So we'll all be doing that.

Best wishes, Peter AU1, and all of you, from a kiwi!

Posted by: juliania | Jul 22 2022 1:15 utc | 83

As an Oz citizen I find the attempts by some fellow aussies to attach some sort of high-falutin patriot motives to the actions of politicians disheartening in the extreme.
i spent quite some time in Canberra towards the end of my public service career and can assure that this patriotism stuff is dreamed up by the pollies' media minders after the deals have been done. The actual reason for the deals are always a mixture of partisan power seeking and simple straightforward greed.
Take Kim Beazley a minister who I worked for in Canberra for several months, he had done his stint as minister of defence by then where he had been captured by the military well and truly and had come to work for our department whilst he plotted his 'takeover' of the federal ALP - eventually successful but only once they had been kicked outta government. Anyway the reason SA was picked as the state for the submarine construction basically revolved around the impending, obvious failure of SA Senator John Button's 'Button Car Plan' which was a vain attempt to keep car manufacture and assembly in Oz by subsidising the industry, insisting that all australian made versions of GM, Ford, Toyota & Nissan cars contained spare parts made in Oz. The only way to achieve that was to make sure all Oz made vehicles used common parts no matter what brand they were.

This led to many awful vehicles, the best - worst example being Nissan whose vehicles were unusable for most of the 80's and 90's. In the Top End we had always used Toyota 4WD's to go out bush altho for some public servants who never strayed off the tarmac that was an indulgence, but for some of us who would rather go to remote communities in the wet season via a car than a single engine aeroplane when electrical storm could appear outta seeming nowhere, our 'Tojos' were vital. Under the Button car plan all Commonwealth vehicles were replaced every 18 months. Admin services would turn up with a fleet of new 4wd's and take away the old ones. One year we had 8 Nissan Patrols foisted upon us. Flimsy pieces of tin to replace our much loved Tojos with take up winches front and back, snorkels for river crossings etc. Most importantly the tojos were diesel as petrol sniffing was a real problem on some communities - diesel not so much. The nissan patrols were designed to be Toorak shopping trolleys for the bourgeoisie to one up tiffany's mum the next time Felicia was dropped off to ballet class. Absolutely useless and nothing we could do about it as it was "Nissan's turn".

Anyway big digression the point was that as slow as pollies may be they saw that the Button car plan launched by Hawke and Button early in the term of the Hawke government, was going to die. It was impractical unless heavily subsidised forever when the initial idea had been to 'get the car makers back on their feet'. Without vehicle assembly SA at the time a major source of ALP votes, SA economy was screwed hence submarine contract to assist and a way for Beazley to ingratiate himself with SA ALP.

The current kerfuffle is Albo firing a shot across the Libs' bow a mob of them especially morrison & Dutton, have a great deal of their retirement luxury dependent upon the amerikan deal going through. If it follows the F-35 'cost overruns' the deal will end up being AU $300 billion plus, so their % commish on that will be very healthy indeed as whether or not the subs are ever built the Oz taxpayer will be forced to ante up at least a few hundred million each year for scoping studies and the like.

I have no faith at all in independent MP's since the current mob of middle class women with slight green tendencies (aka the Teals) are only in power thanks to Holmes-a-Court's mining magnate money. they are there to stop any vestige of socialism from the new government whilst also diverting the environment movement into short term remedies such as koala sanctuaries and the like. Holmes a Court jnr (just the triple barreled surname - doesn't it have an acute over one of the vowels?- should set teeth on edge) and his mob are far too dependent on hydrocarbon extraction (despite protestations to the contrary) to ever be a fair dinkum greenie.

Revolution should come but won't for a long while yet cos altho things have got much worse for the bottom of the heap they are still doing better than most other places since it only takes a tiny sliver of the vast wealth being extracted to keep the 3rd & 4th generation unemployed in alcohol, pot and meth, which has the advantage of making any bottom of the heap type extremely vulnerable, should they get a bit uppity - no matter how dedicated they may be there will be others in their family who can be targeted. It is only the truly disadvantaged who can force change, middle class revolutionaries make some noise and post here there & everywhere but few have the will to make the real sacrifices necessary to bring about revolution - not without their cannon fodder at the least and right now, they are busy blowing away reality.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Jul 22 2022 1:16 utc | 84

Rudd has achieved the impossible. He managed to unite both PRC and Australia. In equal contempt for him. As exposed in the Wikileaks cables release, Rudd urged Hillary Clinton to be prepared to use force against China ''if everything goes wrong'. Whats the Mandarin word for 'rat' Kev?

Posted by: Paul McGrory | Jul 22 2022 1:27 utc | 85

Maybe Russia can supply the subs to Australia.

Posted by: Cesar Jeopardy | Jul 22 2022 1:32 utc | 86

In summary :
NATO is for poking the bear 🐻 and AUKUS is for pulling the tiger’s 🐯 tail…

Posted by: Adam Troy | Jul 22 2022 1:35 utc | 87

I didn't read confirmation from other AU folks that the ruse about the subs was to get acceptance of stationing nukes on your soil, as in sub base. Is that true?

About the revolution thing.

What smacked me in the head a week ago was that the revolution is happening. It is a global revolution led by Russia but backed by China and supported by a growing number of nations.

Those of us in the belly of the Western beast, pinning for internal revolution, need to get ready to take evolutionary advantage of the results of the external global revolution underway.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 22 2022 1:55 utc | 88

Debsisdead | Jul 22 2022 1:16 utc | 85
Jen | Jul 21 2022 23:47 utc | 70

Kim Beasley is a name justifiably being smeared in the thread, but the real Prize Buffoon is Alexander Downer.
‘Twas he who put his fat, pudgy, greasy, aristocratic thumb on the scales to have Adelaide factored in to the submarine build.
American Barflies might recall it was 5eyes Downer that Papadopolous met in a London wine bar; the conversation that facilitated the first FISA into Trump…
As others have suggested. The real purpose of the AUKUS nuke subs deal was to justify a US naval base in Western Australia.
MH-370 was alleged to have disappeared somewhere off the remote Western Australian coast.
As is to be (now) expected of these strange bizarre episodes, the two radars “protecting” the Australian coastline were both offline that day.
By an amazing piece of serendipity, the CSIRO had a brand new bathymetric vessel which was dispatched to look for wreckage.
It’s search area was the remote and never previously surveyed southern ocean south of the west Australian coast.
Relatives and other interested parties insisted the MH-370 search was not being conducted in the correct area…
The Australian taxpayers footed the bill for a year-long, massive, State of the Art survey of the world’s most remote ocean.
How useful all that research data and mapping might be, now that the US is building a naval base south of Perth…
Of course. It’s all just an amazing, astonishing, outlandish coincidence.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 22 2022 2:06 utc | 89

psychohistorian | Jul 22 2022 1:55 utc | 89
Australia has been vehemently anti nuke.
Thank activists like Helen Calldicote and Peter Garrett for that.
The anti nuke thing has faded as the activists have gone quiet.
But the deal was about allowing a US naval base in Western Australia.
That Western Australia used covid to justify the complete isolation of the state from the rest of the country..
Australians couldn’t gain access to Western Australia, but flightrader showed many international flights in and out.
Not ever reported or noted by msm.
I suspect great progress was made in the base construction during lockout.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 22 2022 2:13 utc | 90 Can anyone find me a direct link to a official source (like a news story or official statement by AW on their social media profiles) that confirms this?

Posted by: Mathew Palmieri | Jul 22 2022 2:30 utc | 91

All Australian military acquisitions are just 'rent fees' for a space under the US nuclear 'umbrella'. They are a conga line of fiascos which stretch into the 'Dreamtime'. However, the AUKUS submarine deal is so absurd that it should have been 'torpedoed', after the first champagne had been drunk, at the first PR dinner!

What a good idea! Australian nuclear submarines, without nuclear weapons, cruise off Shanghai, while Chinese nuclear submarines, with nuclear weapons, loiter off Sydney.

And lots of new nuclear capable bases in Australia, for the US to use, while the cobwebs gather.

Welcome to Alice's tea party for mad military hatters!

Posted by: Ric G | Jul 22 2022 2:33 utc | 92

As per usual, all the technical talk about Australian submarines is a big red herring. I need only to look out of my kitchen window to see the what really gets the AUKUS mob salivating: Garden Island, and the nuclear submarine base that it hosts on its western side. This is the big deal. The West Australian premier, (a Labor premier of course), is X-navy and Garden Island is a part of his electorate. Hmmmm. Already there are many U.K servicemen living there, with their families. Citizens are aware of it, but other than that it is all Top Secret. I'm surprised that other Australian commenters haven't mentioned it, but....there you go. The U.S. has now made the U.K. relevant in the "Indo-Pacific" theatre of operations in their looming war with China via the Fremantle/Garden Island nuclear facility in Western Australia.
Complete lunacy, so watch this space. The good old British Daily Mail has summarised the situation rather nicely:

Posted by: Australian lady | Jul 22 2022 2:39 utc | 93

Worked last year on a barracks renovation in Sydney. Went to use the loo and found the loo paper was imported from China. How the heck is a country going to defend itself if it relies on other countries for even the most basic things let alone high tech things.

Posted by: Neal | Jul 22 2022 2:47 utc | 94

We now have US military bases on our soil, something, not even Menzies or John Howard would have allowed.
Posted by: watcher | Jul 21 2022 21:56 utc | 60

Not so.
Pine Gap built 1970, 400 US families moved in.

Posted by: K | Jul 22 2022 2:58 utc | 95

Mathew Palmieri | Jul 22 2022 2:30 utc | 92
This isn’t a Ukraine thread.
b/ has already dropped by here to advise he’s pruned off topic replies.
Your post is interesting…. But should be in the Ukraine thread.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 22 2022 3:05 utc | 96

Has anyone wondered why France was left out of AUKUS?
After all, compared to the French Pacific territories, the UK has only a symbolic stake with Pitcairn.

On the same day AUKUS was in the news the Oz/France sub deal was shelved … to the great apparent surprise of French officials… Maybe a punishment for not wanting to play war games with China?

Just my opinion….

Posted by: Adam Troy | Jul 22 2022 3:29 utc | 97

Posted by: K | Jul 22 2022 2:58 utc | 96

While that is true a tracking station is not the same as actual military forces.

Let us be sadly frank. if a hot war starts between USA and China, nuclear or otherwise, we can expect to be attacked.

Of course China will firstly try to take out US bases in Japan and Guam and maybe other pacific islands including Hawaii, and secure Taiwan but second tranche will be Pine gap, North West Cape, Darwin and several other secret sites. Third tranche would probably be sites in the USA but fourth would be Townsville, Sydney, Brisbane and Perth naval/air bases.

Posted by: watcher | Jul 22 2022 3:30 utc | 98

Posted by: Adam Troy | Jul 22 2022 3:29 utc | 98

You may well be onto something

Posted by: watcher | Jul 22 2022 3:32 utc | 99

I sincerely hope the Germans ask for a hefty up-front non-refundable deposit ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 22 2022 3:43 utc | 100

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