Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 09, 2022

Washington Starts Blame Game Over Defeat In Ukraine

The New York Times, here via Yahoo, has some rather weird piece over alleged lack of intelligence on Ukrainian warplanes:

U.S. Lacks a Clear Picture of Ukraine's War Strategy, Officials Say

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine has provided near-daily updates of Russia’s invasion on social media; viral video posts have shown the effectiveness of Western weapons in the hands of Ukrainian forces; and the Pentagon has regularly held briefings on developments in the war.

But despite the flow of all this news to the public, U.S. intelligence agencies have less information than they would like about Ukraine’s operations and possess a far better picture of Russia’s military, its planned operations and its successes and failures, according to current and former officials.

Governments often withhold information from the public for operational security. But these information gaps within the U.S. government could make it more difficult for the Biden administration to decide how to target military aid as it sends billions of dollars in weapons to Ukraine.
...
Avril D. Haines, the director of national intelligence, testified at a Senate hearing last month that “it was very hard to tell” how much additional aid Ukraine could absorb.

She added: “We have, in fact, more insight, probably, on the Russian side than we do on the Ukrainian side.”

One key question is what measures Zelenskyy intends to call for in Donbas. Ukraine faces a strategic choice there: withdraw its forces or risk having them encircled by Russia.

Andrei Martyanov rants about the piece:

Well, NYT decided to start steering clear of this whole Russia "lost in Ukraine" BS it promoted together with neocon crazies, and begins this ever familiar tune of the "intel failure". Right.

U.S. Lacks a Clear Picture of Ukraine's War Strategy, Officials Say

Hm, how about I put it bluntly--the U.S. never had clear picture on anything, especially on Russia, or, as a private case, [the Special Military Operation] and completely bought into Ukie propaganda, which shows a complete incompetence of the "intel" in the US.
...
The narrative on [the Special Military Operation], in reality, is dead and the failure is not being set, it already happened. It is a fait accompli no matter how one wants to put a lipstick on the pig.

Larry Johnson thinks there is another another motive behind the story:

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that there are not solid analysts at the Defense Intelligence Agency who know the answers to all these questions. The real problem may not be a lack of intelligence. Nope. It is the fear of telling the politicians hard truths they do not want to hear.

Given the billions of dollars the United States is spending on “intelligence” collection systems, it is time for the Congress and the American public to demand that the intelligence services do their damn job.

I do not believe for one moment that U.S. intelligence services do not know what is going on in Ukraine and in Kiev. They know that the Ukraine has lost the war and will have to sue for peace as soon as possible.

They also have told the White House that this is a case and that the whole idea of setting up the Ukraine to tickle the Russian bear was idiotic from the get go. The question now is who will take the blame for the outcome. Who can the buck be passed to?

There is always the option for politicians,  as Andrei assumes is the case, to blame the intelligence and the various agencies which provide it. This was done when the war on Iraq, based on false claims weapons of mass destruction, started to go bad for the U.S.

But what the NYT piece does is passing the buck from the intelligence community to president Zelensky of Ukraine: "He did not inform us about the bad position his country was in."

It is cover your ass time and Zelensky prominence in the 'west' makes it possible to blame him personally for the outcome of the war.

On May 31 the Council of Foreign Relations, with its head Richard Haass, had a public discussion about the state of the war in Ukraine. One of the participants was the former Deputy Commander of the United States European Command Stephen M. Twitty. He knows and makes absolutely clear where the war stands:

TWITTY: I think the war in the Donbas is starting to turn to the Russians’ favor, and when you take a look at—and I’m particularly talking about the eastern part of the Donbas—the Russians have transitioned from trying to pour all their combat power into the Donbas to obliterating every single town. Whether it be Rubizhne, Lyman, they’re working now on Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk as well, they’re obliterating these particular towns, and that’s how they’re making their headway. They’re not putting a bunch of combat power with infantry forces and tanks in there. They’ve taken all their artillery and they’re treating it like Mariupol and that’s how they’re making their headway. So they’re starting to make some headway in the eastern Donbas and so we have to watch that one closely.

HAASS: ... Why don’t we reverse [our policies]? General Twitty, is there something that the president said? Are things we’re not doing that we should be doing? Is there things that you would recommend at this point?

TWITTY: Well, as I take a look at this, you know, Secretary Austin came out that we’re going to weaken Russia. We have not really defined what weaken means, because if you take a look at the Ukrainians right now, I take a strong belief in Colin Powell’s doctrine—you overwhelm a particular enemy with force. And right now, when you take a look at Ukraine and you take a look at Russia, they’re about one to one. The only difference is Russia has a heck of a lot of combat power than the Ukrainians.

And so there’s no way that the Ukrainians will ever destroy or defeat the Russians, and so we got to really figure out what does weaken mean in the end state here. And I will also tell you, Richard, there’s no way that the Ukrainians will ever have enough combat power to kick the Russians out of Ukraine as well, and so what does that look like in the end game.

There follows some discussion with other participants about potential outcomes the U.S. would like to see, like Ukraine in the state that it was in before 2014.

Twitty then explains why those ideas are all unrealistic and that what is needed instead are immediate negotiations:

TWITTY: Yeah. So I got a couple of things for you, Richard. So I want to go back to what you said. Pre-2014—I want you to think about that one, because I’ve had time to think about it hearing others here, and what I will tell you, Richard, you know, I learned from the National War College there’s something called ends, ways, and means.

So if that’s your end state—pre-2014—then I’m interested to hear the ways and the means because, from a military standpoint, if that’s the way then the means would be the Ukrainians lack, again, the ability to pull that off to pre-2014. They just lack that ability. They don’t have the combat power.

And I also want to remind you we hear a lot about Russian casualties and Russian losses. We hear very little about Ukrainian losses, and keep in mind they’re losing soldiers throughout this war as well. They started at approximately two hundred thousand. Who knows where they are today?

And so it’s hard to recruit and maintain that level of professionalism in that military. So that’s my first point. The end, ways, and means, they lack that, to be able to go back to the pre-2014.

The second point that I would make is, you know, as you look at the DIME—diplomatic, informational, military, and economic—we’re woefully lacking on the diplomatic piece of this. If you notice, there’s no diplomacy going on at all to trying to get to some type of negotiations. And I don’t think that we can lead that, given where Putin thinks about us.

But if you sit back and think about those that could possibly be a part of this negotiation team, you know, you have the—two of them are in—that I’m going to list are in NATO. One is President Orbán out of Hungary. Perhaps he can help out in the negotiation effort. The other one is President Erdoğan of Turkey. Longtime friends of President Putin, although some view that relationship as transactional. I don’t know. Let’s put it to the test and see.

Someone objects and makes a case for 'giving the Ukraine more time' by pushing more weapons to them. Twitty dismantles that argument:

TWITTY: —Charlie, I agree 100 percent. But I will tell you, when you look at time, the Ukrainians have to go into negotiations with the upper hand at a position of strength, and so right now they are at a position of strength. The more this war goes on we never know if that’s going to wane, and then they will lack the ability to go to the bargaining table at a position of strength and may lose more than they intended, and so let’s keep that in mind as well.

There it is. The professional military and intelligence people know exactly what is up. The Ukraine is already in a very bad situation and from here on it can only get worse. They expect that the Ukrainian frontline will break down.  I am sure they are urging, like Twitty does above, for immediate negotiations using whatever third party is available.

It is the White House for which such an outcome is not what it had hoped to achieve. It can in fact not allow it. It is currently blocking any negotiations because admitting to a loss in Ukraine would give the Republicans more ammunition to damage Biden.

Yves Smith detects some signs that, behind the curtains, some direct negotiations between Ukraine and Russia are actually taking place:

We may know in due course, but this development, even if these talks are more at the feeler stage, is proof that Zelensky is losing power. Recall that there has already been some chatter about a possible military coup. And it is hardly uncommon for the senior officials of a leader on the ropes to start negotiating with the other side, both out of the best interests of their country and to improve their odds of survival.
...
So that is a long winded way of saying that Zelensky may not have altered his stance, but that instead he is no longer driving the train. And it may also be that some in the Ukraine government are also trying to get the UK’s and US’s hands off the wheel. It may be too early for that to happen, but if they keep trying to shore up Zelensky when his own senior staff (and the military) are turning against him, they could find they bet on the wrong horse. Again, I’m not saying this is a likely outcome, but the fact that it is even conceivable is a big change in the state of play.

Passing the buck to Zelensky, to then have him removed from this planet, may indeed be the best outcome for the White House ... and for Ukraine.

Posted by b on June 9, 2022 at 15:13 UTC | Permalink

Comments
next page »

I have noticed the 'war' disappearing from the headlines or even subheads on Drudge report,Huff post, etc. DK still has some crazy comments, but they always do. The storyline is changing....

Posted by: horatio | Jun 9 2022 15:21 utc | 1

They might as well follow some Telegram channels such as Sputnik, doesn't cost a dime :D

Posted by: Nico | Jun 9 2022 15:27 utc | 2

Oh those Ukies. We send them lots of state of the art game-changers and they don't tell us they're losing.

Posted by: dh | Jun 9 2022 15:33 utc | 3

Yet Elensky claims to have 700.000 men under arms (and increasing because of forced conscription)... media is going entirely new ways now, the newest headline i saw in the Independent (rather, i saw the screenshot on Telegram) said "Intelligence report reveals Ukraine forces outgunned up to 40 to 1 by Russian forces" then in the article below, it said.... "Ukraine is outnumbered 20 to 1 in artillery, and 40 to 1 in ammunition"..

Posted by: Jessail | Jun 9 2022 15:36 utc | 4

"have him removed from this planet"--LOL

It hopefully will prove much harder in the future for the U.S. to attract proxies to do its' dirty work. The U.S. recruitment and then betrayal of Ukraine will stand for years and years as a sign post of all the reasons not to be a patsy of the (former) empire.

Posted by: Zed | Jun 9 2022 15:37 utc | 5

It is the fear of telling the politicians hard truths they do not want to hear.

I auspect this assertion is incorrect.

A corrected version would be:

It is the fear of telling the public hard truths the politicians do not want you to hear.

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 9 2022 15:38 utc | 6

Severodonesk, final act :

https://alawata-rebellion.blogspot.com/2022/06/severodonetsk-acte-final.html

Posted by: malamatias | Jun 9 2022 15:41 utc | 7

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that there are not solid analysts at the Defense Intelligence Agency who know the answers to all these questions. The real problem may not be a lack of intelligence. Nope. It is the fear of telling the politicians hard truths they do not want to hear.

Certainly they do not want to hear the truth or act on clean intelligence reports. It is an agenda to add Russia to sudo colonial status under the control of western institutions.

You have to admit they did a great job of assembling a bunch of crazies in the Ukraine in leadership roles to take on Russia. It is all held together by Yankee dollars.

Watching some of the you tube reports clearly Russia's operation is moving forward methodically and slowly. The Western politicians have painted themselves into a corner. How do they get out?

Posted by: circumspect | Jun 9 2022 15:42 utc | 8

Witty: “and so right now they are at a position of strength”
This has got to be the doorstop to keep it from slamming shut in gust of harsh reality. The question for him would be: “In what way is Ukraine in a position of strength at this moment?”
Sushi: it is indeed a case of not wanting the public to hear they have been duped yet again, but it this point Whats another in a chain of lies and deceptions. Heck at this point, they are trained to gloss over it and move on. After all there are bipolar cultural warfare piece to be moved! I do find all the talk of handing the reigns to the Z-man or whatever to be a bit silly. I cannot see evidence that he ever had any power at all, other than to do what he is told…..

Posted by: Chevrus | Jun 9 2022 15:44 utc | 9

The NYT is right back to the conduct of the Judy Miller era, doing shameless stenography for the Washington blob. According to this latest nonsense, we are supposed to believe that the U.S. military and intel agencies, who have been working in close cooperation with the Ukrainian armed forces, have no clue as to what is happening - this despite continuous real-time, high-tech, airborne and satellite surveillance that sees everything on the battlefield and monitoring of Ukrainian and Russian communications.

A culture of impunity has taken hold in the U.S. mainstream media because they have seen that the stupendous failure in Afghanistan has brought no negative consequences for the press cheerleaders of the "forever war." Meanwhile alternatives sources on the Internet have proliferated and made even more obvious the shameful deceit practiced by the "legacy" media.

What is needed now is a reliable aggregator of honest news coverage from citzen sources on the Internet. That will finally kill the evil thing that corporate mass media has become.

Posted by: HH | Jun 9 2022 15:45 utc | 10

Someone posted a Kissinger (?) quote here a while back: It is dangerous to be an enemy of the US. To be a friend is fatal.

Posted by: C | Jun 9 2022 15:46 utc | 11

from the last thread .. I suggest the Ukraine situation is explanable.

Knowing what I do about the "October Surprise" and Ronnie Raygun's team sabotaging Carter at every turn w/r/t the Iran hostage crisis, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the helicopter debacle was also planned.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 8 2022 18:47 utc | 50

excellent point. I remember how the NYT went after Carter the way they later did Trump, I think that's when the intel "community" really took over the US.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jun 8 2022 19:36 utc | 74

If you want the date the 'deep state' at least publicly took power, I suggest Nov 23, 1963, with the location being Daley Plaza in Dallas Texas. I'd imagine they held power behind the scenes back into World War II. But their public assumption of power occurred in Daley Plaza.

I happened to go look for the last US President with large public approval. The answer was John Fitzgerald Kennedy, who averaged an 'approval rating' of 70% in polls during his shortened term. Can anyone imagine a President with 70% approval these days? In a democracy, should it be possible to even have Presidents with low approval?

Posted by: Eugene Debs | Jun 8 2022 19:54 utc | 87


Eugene Debs | Jun 8 2022 19:54 utc | 87
Replying to: pretzelattack | 74
If you want the date the 'deep state' at least publicly took power, I suggest Nov 23, 1963…
Finding the tap root of the Deep State?
It was alive and thriving before WW1
Read The Creature From Jekyll Island by Griffin
Synopsis:
In 1910, a group of six people who represented 25% of the world’s wealth met at Jekyll Island to discuss creating a central bank.
The five goals they set for themselves were:
stop new banks from threatening their business;
obtain the right to create money out of nothing;
get control over all banks’ reserves so that reckless ones wouldn’t be exposed and cause panic in other banks;
convince Congress that this was done for public good;
and have taxpayers pay any losses incurred by this bank.
It’s written in the style of a detective story….. but every event and quote is fact…
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 9 2022 2:39 utc | 231

The precursor to the deep state wrote the US Constitution.. it was a Rothschild backed attempt to regain control over the lost British Colony.. the constitution was essential to land grant estate owners, because state governments under the Articles government were moving toward foreclosing the Land Grants on the basis that owners had not paid the taxes to the States which funds were needed to finance the Articles of Confederation Government and on the principle that the Land grants were given by a foreign government, so the United States Government [the Articles of Confederation [AOC] before 1788] was not obligated to recognize or accept land grant titles. And if these lands were confiscated they would be distributed to those who fought in the war for American independence from Britain.
Many of these wealthy gents, also had substantial quantities of state government and Revolutionary war bonds w/n/b
enforceable in state courts under the AoC [unless the States could collect taxes from Land grant owners].

look at Article VI of the Constitution of the United States.
[1] All debts contracted and
[All} engagements entered into
before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as
valid against the US, under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
[2] This constitution , the Laws... and all Treaties made, ... shall be the supreme law of the Land...
Shows gave Article II(P & VP) exclusive power to enact domestic law, by negotiating treaties with foreign entities. and this clause has always raised with me the question of what is a treaty?


Next The Bankers were happy to see Lincoln shot, since his method of issuing script to finance the war was not in their interest.

The meeting Melaleuca references was concerned with the question of how to finance the participation of weak European States, in the coming war against Germany, Austria-Hungry and Turkey(1914)(the old Oil rich Ottoman empire. The year 1913 produced two results essential to prosecution of the war against Germany,Austria-Hungary, and Turkey.. (basically take and hold the oil rich Ottoman empire and get rid of the only competitor to the oil and gas that lay beneath the Ottoman Empire.

the 16th amendment (February 3, 1913).
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration" was proposed on July 12, 1909, before the Jekyll Island meeting, nearly word for word reversed the promises made in Article 1, Section 9, paragraph 4 [2.12.1913] which reads "No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken." was followed immediately by the Federal reserve act of Dec. 1913.

That act basically pledged the incomes of USA Taxpayers to the private bankers and their oil and gas corporate interest seeking to finance the poor European nations the corporations
planned to use to take the oil from the Ottoman Empire and to eliminate German competition in those very productive oil fields. Germany was well established in trading German technology for access to Ottoman Empire oil and gas.

Is this not basically the same as now they are doing in Ukraine. same folks, same strokes, different oil-rich place,
different competitor and the same taxpayers financing it all?

Posted by: snake | Jun 9 2022 15:48 utc | 12

If some of your own kind should threaten your life for seeking peace with the enemy, act as if capitulating, go to war, but send those first to the killing fields.

Z Tzu, (hero friend of Joe Tzu)

Posted by: Mickey | Jun 9 2022 15:50 utc | 13

So where is the connection about Ukraine and Russia demands for NATO pullback to 1997 levels?

People keep trying to make this into a Ukraine only military operation and not understanding when that context does not work.

Oh well, truth will be out in the end....the bully of empire is going down.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jun 9 2022 15:51 utc | 14

Where to dump the blame is naturally a vital question for anyone practicing politics. There are usually plenty of choices - namely, everyone else =)

Internally it would be more interesting, though I doubt that there would be any change in the relationship between potentially different decision-makers in Kiev and their NATO sponsors.

They still do have some time though, as the battle of Donbas proceeds just a couple of villages/small-towns/hills on any given day. Kiev has still been pretty clear that they refuse to negotiate in realistic terms (ie the precondition of restoring status quo ante).

I have to figure that from point of view of Washington, loss of Donbas was a possible outcome all along. They should be slightly more concerned with the situation in the Black Sea, but much more concerned with the global upheavals caused by the side effects of sanctions.

I wonder how the US imperialists break down on their degree of concern for the worldwide trade disaster that inevitably resulted from the sanctions. Some might consider it useful. The most realistic among them though, I'd think, recognize that with this debacle, China has the #1 global-power spot just about clinched. At the same time, EU is reavealed to be eliminated from only any chance at #1 but also from #2 (and possibly even #3). So I think what is happening is reduced slightly to a battle between US and Russia over who is #2 in global power terms. That would be a battle worth fighting for the imperialist bureaucrats (eg SecState), but not necessarily for their sponsors.

The global business class must be horrified now, as the tsunami of economic breakdowns in the pipeline now becomes undeniable. More intensity is added to this pipeline each month. As the previous MOA article pointed out though, the Biden administration is looking rather incoherent. The components of the US government continue to function on autopilot just fine -- but it all complicates the interface from the point of view of its sponsors. The result could simply be to continue by default, i.e. have NATO maintain the conflict as long as possible. Individual parts of US government, without strong central control, could also do things to escalate. I'm thinking either way, by late autumn, the global economic situation would be come unsustainable in an immediate sense.

Posted by: ptb | Jun 9 2022 15:51 utc | 15

I think that in the long run all thinking Ukrainians (of whom I am sure there are very many) will realise how they have been used by the west. With much bloodshed incurred.

There is a possibility that the new reduced Ukraine will end up as an ally of Russia. Eventually. Perhaps Chechnya will be an inspiration.

Posted by: Stephen | Jun 9 2022 15:53 utc | 16

Ukraine does not have a command structure. They have little control over Azov and the militias. Z is busy dealing with Us and UK puppet masters and his Generals are isolated.

As the s''' hits the fan Z will blame Generals and want to arrest and execute

Generals will want to get retaliation in first and arrest Z

A military coup is best for Russia - it exposes NATO and frightens off EU

A Military Dictatorship in Ukraine can restore order - liquidate the Nazis and be a stable neighbour for Russia and a threat to Poland

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 9 2022 15:54 utc | 17

It’s domestic US politics that is driving the war in Ukraine. The Biden Administration is doing dismally on both the domestic and the international front as you enumerated in your previous article.

Biden Administration simply cannot afford another Afghanistan like collapse.

Posted by: Down South | Jun 9 2022 15:54 utc | 18

The Telegraph
@Telegraph
🇺🇦 Russia is now largely in control of the key eastern Ukrainian city of Severodonetsk where a "fierce battle" that could determine the fate of the Donbas continues to intensify.

Posted by: Down South | Jun 9 2022 15:57 utc | 19

so russia is "obliterating every town" and the ukies are in a "position of strength". sure. i'd rather take advice from conway twitty. would it kill these MICtards to look at telegram once in a while?

i read AM's bit last night and agree. the buck will be passed and fall guys will fall. to say that an 8 year NATO training mission left them unconnected from the ukie chain of command when they made that chain is laughable. but then people believe the ghost of kiev shot baby rapers so why bother with plausibility.

Posted by: the pair | Jun 9 2022 15:59 utc | 20

I fully expect an almost exact repeat of the Ukraine debacle in Taiwan. Before the next U.S. Presidential election, the Neocon idiots in the Biden administration will deliberately or accidentally trigger a proxy war with China, which the U.S. will lose. Until the toxic Neocon ideology of the Washington Blob is exorcised, the U.S. will face an unending series of foreign policy disasters.

Posted by: HH | Jun 9 2022 15:59 utc | 21

the usa and west for that matter - don't do accountability and they don't take ownership when things go wrong.. taking responsibility is the act of an adult, and there are no adults in the room when it comes to all this on the usa and poodles side... just harsh gestures and sending innocent people into a death spiral, while supporting nazi types and fascists - that is what the west does.... forget about anyone taking responsibility here, let alone there being any accountability.... blame is the name of the game... more joe tzu quotes - thanks.. @ cadence calls - you had some good ones yesterday.. thanks..

Posted by: james | Jun 9 2022 16:01 utc | 22

That act basically pledged the incomes of USA Taxpayers to the private bankers and their oil and gas corporate interest seeking to finance the poor European nations the corporations
planned to use to take the oil from the Ottoman Empire and to eliminate German competition in those very productive oil fields. Germany was well established in trading German technology for access to Ottoman Empire oil and gas.


Crackpot.

What oil in Ottoman Empire ???????
What German technology ?

The main oil prior to 1914 was in Baku or in Persia. The concessions belonged to Shell and Nobel and Russian and Armenian operators. In Persia it was William Knox D'Arcy who sold rights to Burmah Oil which created Anglo-Persian Oil Company (BP)

The only bit that was German was the company British Petroleum which was a subsidiary of Deutsche Bank designed for German designs on British concessions. D'Arcy founded Turkish Petroleum Company in Iraq. Saudi did not discover oil until 1938.

Germans were irrelevant. Their chemical industry was coal-based.

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 9 2022 16:02 utc | 23

Blaming the "intelligence community" in any regard is idiotic. The blame lies with the terrorists who run the US terrorist state. Who gives a shit about what the analysts thing or say?

Posted by: Richard | Jun 9 2022 16:02 utc | 24

psychohistorian | Jun 9 2022 15:51 utc | 14

As I commented to karlof1 in the last thread - I think the Russia China joint statement, Russia's security, and desnazifing are all one complex bundle. By the time this is over, I doubt there will be a Nato and going by what Putin said, US will most likely no longer be the world hegemon.
Something that locks the Russia China joint statement into the SMO is bio weapons. Europe's economy is toast but for most of the so called west, stagflation is the future.
I suspect Europe has lost the chance for mutual security for quite some time. With Nato gone, it wont have any.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 9 2022 16:07 utc | 25

"Hey, let's blame the Jew!"

That's not going to end well for the Jew, considering he is surrounded by Nazis. I have to wonder if the New York Langley Times is giving the Nazis the green light to take him out.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 9 2022 16:09 utc | 26

As I see it the west (US/UK) are beginning to understand that if they don't get a negotiated settlement fairly soon Russia will take Odessa and Ukraine will have to capitulate at that point. I think that if Russia does take Odessa (and better to clear Ukraine to the Dnipr) the Ukrainian oligarchs will flee west with whatever they can salvage as the remainder of Ukraine cannot support their wealth addiction. This would provide a real opportunity for a new Ukrainian government to form that could realistically enter into negotiations with Russia.

This prospect is what the west wishes to avoid.

Patrick Armstrong has an interesting interview up with a Kherson farmer - quite worthwhile.

Posted by: the pessimist | Jun 9 2022 16:10 utc | 27

SSDD:

These "Blaming Gamings" will continue on After RUS Finishes their SMO and PKO Troops from CSTO/SCO are all over Kiev-Lviv.

Posted by: IronForge | Jun 9 2022 16:11 utc | 28

I think this civil war will end as a mirror of how it started. We will end up with a united pro russian Ukraine and it will be nice again to Kiew. Only problem is to fight polish occupation of some western part of the country. For sure Russia want to get control of Transcapartia. Mostly to be able to come to rescue serbian friends from provocation. Dont know how it will look like, but a anti maidan only event thats missing.

Posted by: rico rose | Jun 9 2022 16:12 utc | 29

Biden's best bet now is to top Z, say there's been a coup then head off to try his luck with China. :)
Who knows, Perhaps the Biden admin and the Euro twits will be foolish enough to sanction China as well.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 9 2022 16:13 utc | 30

Also - in the scenario I lay out above I think that the only remaining significant sources of income (without access to the Black Sea and the industrial east and agricultural south) for Kiev would be gas transit fees (through pipes which Russia doesn't need to use, but can choose to) and power generation from whatever npp, hydro, and coal plants they still control.

Posted by: the pessimist | Jun 9 2022 16:17 utc | 31

"..A Military Dictatorship in Ukraine can restore order - liquidate the Nazis and be a stable neighbour for Russia and a threat to Poland" Paul Greenwood@17

Isn't any military dictator like to be a Nazi? The Nazis did not come to be the power in Ukraine by sweet talking Zelensky but by violence. They have spent the past seven years eliminating their rivals and opponents. The likelihood is that they began by getting rid of any military leadership that did not favour them.
I hope I am wrong but my suspicion is that the Nazis, given unconditional support by the NATO personnel who have sustained them in their accession to power, are most likely to prevail internally. In Ukraine there is no Wehrmacht, there are no Rommels nothing but the SS and half a dozen wannabe Hitlers.
Are the oligarchs powerful enough and united enough to insist on negotiations?

John Helmer has some interesting comments today, including the observation that Russia might simply recognise the various Hungarian, Polish and German claims to revisit the 1945 settlement and butcher Ukraine, and Poland.
http://johnhelmer.net/

Posted by: bevin | Jun 9 2022 16:18 utc | 32

I don't know what the intelligence community is thinking, Ukraine has no bargaining chips to go to the table with, large chunk of Eastern Ukraine are now under Russian control, some regions want to either become autonomous, or join the Russian Federation, all Zelensky can do is ask for a cessation of hostilities, oh he can ask for more but he's unlikely to get it.

The best case scenario for Zelensky in my opinion is the retention of parts of Ukraine to the West, but he knows too much and will be suicided when the time is right to shut him up, with a new US puppet president installed, to maintain if not hostilities with Russia and the new autonomous regions, then certainly bad feelings towards them.

At home in Washington DC the failure in Ukraine will need to be spun somehow to take the heat off the current administration, some sort of domestic disaster or another so called terrorist attack along the lines of 9/11 could be on the cards (bread and circuses to turn heads away from the failed war against Russia by proxy).

However the real change the USA's war on Russia via Ukraine has brought about, is not a territorial one, but an economic one which will affect us all in a negative way, as Russia turns away from Europe and towards the East where its wealth of natural resources will be warmly welcomed. This will surely impact upon US hegemony and the US dollar dominance. We in Europe will also suffer for blindly allowing our European leaders to fall into line with US interests.

Russia is part of our European brotherhood, we've aided it and it has aided us throughout the centuries long before the founding of the USA, Europe should've embraced our Russian brothers instead we've alienated the Russian people for US interests, we are led by donkeys.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jun 9 2022 16:18 utc | 33

"Passing the buck to Zelensky, to then have him removed from this planet, may indeed be the best outcome for the White House ... and for Ukraine."

Wow, not only did my book, Passing the Buck: Coleman Francis and Other Cinematic Metaphysicians, foretell the "Zombie" meme used by the Russians to describe Azov (in my discussion of the Cold War spy film A Dandy in Aspic) but the theme of "passing the buck" in cinema predicted the outcome of the SMO!

Posted by: James J. O'Meara | Jun 9 2022 16:19 utc | 34

@b:

On March 31 the Council of Foreign Relations, with its head Richard Haass, had a public discussion about the state of the war in Ukraine.

It was on May 31.

Posted by: S | Jun 9 2022 16:20 utc | 35

Patrick Armstrong has an interesting interview up with a Kherson farmer..
Where?

Posted by: bevin | Jun 9 2022 16:26 utc | 36

However the real change the USA's war on Russia via Ukraine has brought about, is not a territorial one, but an economic one which will affect us all in a negative way, as Russia turns away from Europe and towards the East where its wealth of natural resources will be warmly welcomed. This will surely impact upon US hegemony and the US dollar dominance.
Republicofscotland | Jun 9 2022 16:18 utc | 33

I suspect Russia has well and truly factored that in perhaps before kicking off the SMO but certainly within the first week when Russia watched the Anglo European west shoot itself in both feet.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 9 2022 16:27 utc | 37

"I happened to go look for the last US President with large public approval. The answer was John Fitzgerald Kennedy, who averaged an 'approval rating' of 70% in polls during his shortened term. Can anyone imagine a President with 70% approval these days? In a democracy, should it be possible to even have Presidents with low approval?"

Asked and answered, we don't have a "democracy" anymore. IIRC, the whole point of his trip to Dallas was to "shore up support" as we say today, in a region where he was unpopular. Today, the "popularity" of the suit in the office is irrelevant.

Take Biden, for example. Unlike Kennedy's razor sharp margin of victory, Biden supposedly got more votes than any candidate in history; you'd think he'd have enough of a cushion to stay above 40%, would you not?

Posted by: James J. O'Meara | Jun 9 2022 16:27 utc | 38

Europe and Russia are natural trading partners, so the U.S. has accomplished, at great expense, a gross distortion of trade relationships that is inflicting major damage on the EU economy. This is likely to result in political turmoil in EU states as economic conditions worsen. When Europeans awaken to the fact that they have been played by the U.S., the blowback may result in the disbanding of NATO.

The U.S. oligarchs who backed the Neocon project of global liberal hegemony will eventually realize that they have created an ideological monster that will seriously damage the U.S. economy. The toxic Neocon foreign policy that benefits only the defense sector (5% of the U.S. economy) will increasingly disrupt the global commerce on which much of the rest of the U.S. economy depends. The only question is how much damage the U.S. sustains before the Neocons are finally driven out of power.

Posted by: HH | Jun 9 2022 16:32 utc | 39

Armstrong video on Kherson ag:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wspdbovw3Rw

.................

re: negotiations - I frankly don't think Russia is interested in negotiations at this point - that ship sailed last fall and has been getting farther from port ever since, not closer. Opposing parties not yet serious.

Ukraine claims to have deployed Harpoon anti ship missiles at Odessa now. I don't believe these will be allowed to remain.

Posted by: the pessimist | Jun 9 2022 16:33 utc | 40

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 9 2022 15:38 utc | 6

"It is the fear of telling the public hard truths the politicians do not want you to hear."

Good point and that's likely part of it. But they also want the conflict to go on as long as possible serving as scapegoat for the ongoing politico-social decline which threatens to become critical in a few months.

Then when they can't stretch it out any longer it will be time for Fall Guys.

1. Elensky. (where is his family living now, we wonders?)

2. Biden. He can be taken out no end of different ways but IF Elensky goes first, then the entire Biden family including Mr. Big can easily be implicated in the corruption which fooled the country etc. That's why they pushed him in. He'll take the fall and his son will be spared - the deal.

3. Deplorables: then have a mid-term with riots and the National Guard sent in to arrest 'white supremacist and domestic terrorist cells' all over the country and then everyone can forget about Ukraine and focus on survival first and then Resetting second!

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 9 2022 16:34 utc | 41

the pessimist | Jun 9 2022 16:33 utc | 40

Going by what Putin and Lavrov have said, if the Ukrainians change their government then they will try negotiating again

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 9 2022 16:36 utc | 42

Watch UAHUSD. 3 months in and the currency hasn't budged at all. Somebody has set the exchange rate and giving away a lot of dollars to keep it there.
Either US or they are forcing IMF to do it. Going to be very expensive the day they stop.

Posted by: Michael Droy | Jun 9 2022 16:37 utc | 43

Liz Truss on Twitter
"I utterly condemn the sentencing of Aiden Aslin and Shaun Pinner held by Russian proxies in eastern Ukraine.

They are prisoners of war. This is a sham judgment with absolutely no legitimacy.

My thoughts are with the families. We continue to do everything we can to support them."
--------------------------

Well, if they are "prisoners of war" does Britain at war with LDR?
Or, Brexitland on the way to recognition of the LDNR! 😀

Posted by: ostro | Jun 9 2022 16:38 utc | 44

@HH | Jun 9 2022 16:32 utc | 39

Europe and Russia are natural trading partners, so the U.S. has accomplished, at great expense, a gross distortion of trade relationships that is inflicting major damage on the EU economy. This is likely to result in political turmoil in EU states as economic conditions worsen. When Europeans awaken to the fact that they have been played by the U.S., the blowback may result in the disbanding of NATO.

Yes, and the so called EU as well, because they serve the same masters.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 9 2022 16:43 utc | 45

the pessimist @40: "I frankly don't think Russia is interested in negotiations at this point..."

That depends. If the negotiations include the arrest and trial of Nazis and a properly supervised constitutional convention for the Ukraine to enshrine denazification in the foundational legal document of the nation, then the Russians might be willing to talk. Agreed, though, that there is nothing to talk about so long as the Ukrainians are unwilling to let go of their love of Nazis.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 9 2022 16:43 utc | 46

This one by Patrick is also of interest - Ukrainian commander in Kherson region defects to Russian held Kherson, claims he will help Russian military administration "root out criminal elements" remaining in the area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il6jeRyDtIA

Posted by: the pessimist | Jun 9 2022 16:49 utc | 47

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jun 9 2022 15:51 utc | 14


So where is the connection about Ukraine and Russia demands for NATO pullback to 1997 levels?

People keep trying to make this into a Ukraine only military operation and not understanding when that context does not work.

Oh well, truth will be out in the end....the bully of empire is going down.

When the bully of empire goes down I suspect those peoples who survive the coming economic train wreck of Europe will demand a NATO pullback to 1776 levels.

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 9 2022 16:50 utc | 48

I read this and and get the impression Twitty and Haas are both acting as though they have delusions of victory. They talk about how strong the uk's are and how nows the time to get tough and negotiate a surrender? Because if they aren't trying to negotiate a surrender, they are more nuts than they sound. Andrei Martyanov puts it down to ignorance and stupidity and his points are sharp.
Russia has no reason to negotiate with war criminals trying to destroy their country. They will never stop. Everyone loses.

Posted by: Tard | Jun 9 2022 16:54 utc | 49

President Zelensky of the Kiev regime needs to go the same way as that other great US ally President Ngô Đình Diệm of Vietnam. Russia cant allow him to go into non-quite exile like Mikheil Saakashvili, constantly popping up in various trouble spots to whip up (remember how Saakashvili popped up in Ukraine as an appointed government of one of the breakaway region then tried to overthrow the US-backed government to impose an even more pliant US puppet regime, imagine Zelensky showing up in Poland or one of the Baltic states in another 4-6yrs to run as President there). Zelensky needs to be permanently removed from the board, he's been built up too much by the Western media for them to just allow him to gather rust. Also, never forgot that he has embezzled at least 900 million US, the US government would never have let him accumulate that much wealth, unless they planned to us it to fund his further adventures.

Posted by: Kadath | Jun 9 2022 16:56 utc | 50

Posted by: HH | Jun 9 2022 16:32 utc | 39

"Europe and Russia are natural trading partners, so the U.S. has accomplished, at great expense, a gross distortion of trade relationships that is inflicting major damage on the EU economy... When Europeans awaken to the fact that they have been played by the U.S., the blowback may result in the disbanding of NATO.
...
The only question is how much damage the U.S. sustains before the Neocons are finally driven out of power."

Since the beginning of this Ukraine campaign my main prayer has been that it serves to finally dislodge Europe from US clutches and in so doing dislodge whoever is running the US into outer darkness. The first is more likely than the second - and would already be a fantastic geopolitical leap forward - but one can still hope for the second.

I don't think the Russians are going to be too hasty to open their arms to the Europeans after all this. A ten year cool-off period might be needed whilst Europe watches Eurasia building the next great world civilization and they can only watch and learn...

Unless they've all been penned into a techno-fascist gaol......

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 9 2022 16:56 utc | 51

When we start seeing regimist press exposing corruption in the Kiev regime then you know it’s over.

The war party always blames it’s vassals for its own failures.

Posted by: Exile | Jun 9 2022 16:58 utc | 52


Aiden Aslin
The Court Sentence

Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 9 2022 17:01 utc | 53

Accountability? There will be nothing of the sort. I believe I can remember discussions about the Pentagon war-gaming this whole thing out long before the outbreak of war. Russia won. The politicians chose not to believe it, and here we are.
Speaking personally, I've opposed the U$ war machine since coming of age during the 'Nam War. I am long since satisfied reform of the U$A is not possible, thus the next best thing is state failure, and a fission between Red and Blue Republics, each of which would like to maintain the Empire but will lack the resources to do so.
May this latest failure in Ukraine accelerate that process.

Posted by: ChrisHerz | Jun 9 2022 17:05 utc | 54

@Exile | Jun 9 2022 16:58 utc | 52

"When we start seeing regimist press exposing corruption in the Kiev regime then you know it’s over."

Wrong, it ain't over until Russia says it's over. These people still think they have some kind of leverage in the situation. They don't. They played all their cards already and now have nothing. They are freaking out now because they are understanding just how bad the deal they will eventually will be presented with is going to be.

Posted by: the pessimist | Jun 9 2022 17:09 utc | 55

Since the beginning of this Ukraine campaign my main prayer has been that it serves to finally dislodge Europe from US clutches and in so doing dislodge whoever is running the US into outer darkness. The first is more likely than the second - and would already be a fantastic geopolitical leap forward - but one can still hope for the second.
Neither is at all likely. Regarding the first: One would have to remove from power the entire European ruling class. That is simply impossible without prolonged general strikes and, I suspect, armed revolution. Recall that any opposition is either co-opted/controlled (Syriza, anyone? Podemos?), shut out by means foul or fair (Corbyn, anyone? Le Pen? -- although these two might well belong to the co-opted/controlled category, but of course we'll never know for sure), or marginalized to the point that they simply don't enter public consciousness thanks to media control. As for the second, as long as the Deep State tosses the occasional bone (or, more likely, scapegoat) to the "deplorables," they'll stay put.

Posted by: malenkov | Jun 9 2022 17:09 utc | 56

Isn't any military dictator like to be a Nazi?

Of course not. The General Staff in Ukraine is not Nazi. It is the infliction of US-backed Nazis that irritates the Ukrainian military top brass.

Even the Wehrmacht loathed the Party Army - Waffen-SS in Germany. It was not Waffen-SS in Staueffenberg Bomb Plot but the Reserve Army for Internal Control

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 9 2022 17:12 utc | 57

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOElVcGcfM0

Zelensky to quit and move to Switzerland ?????

Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 9 2022 17:17 utc | 58

Norwegian | Jun 9 2022 17:01 utc | 53

Clown says he has fully repented. Looking at a death sentence would have that effect I guess. I find it a bit difficult to have sympathy for people that go to a place like Ukraine for the purpose of at best ethnic cleansing, at worst genocide.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 9 2022 17:18 utc | 59

re: It is the White House for which such an outcome is not what it had hoped to achieve. It can in fact not allow it.

I've been commenting that "disinformation" is a frequent buzzword that government lackeys, especially liar Blinken, have been tossing around. Any "journalist" who favored Russia in any way would be like an RT journalist in the US practicing disinformation, without income. Then we have the stupid General Austin, the 'Russia weakener.' He sets the pace as a qualified military mind, an impossibility in most cases.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 9 2022 17:22 utc | 60

Posted by: malenkov | Jun 9 2022 17:09 utc | 56

"One would have to remove from power the entire European ruling class. That is simply impossible without prolonged general strikes and, I suspect, armed revolution."

Although the U.S. has effectively bribed and/or co-opted much of the European political establishment, the EU business elite will not tolerate the destruction of their industries. This is particularly true in Germany, with its heavy reliance on Russian energy. It will take longer for the U.S. business sector to turn against the Neocons, but it will happen, either before or after a major military defeat.

Posted by: HH | Jun 9 2022 17:22 utc | 61

I disagree with b's and Larry C Johnson's view that the US "knows the real situation".

To be clear: are there individuals in the US intel agencies and military which have an accurate picture? Yes.

However, as Ray McGovern specifically noted in his mentions of Brennan (who used to work for McGovern) - the intel agencies morphed from their original objectives of providing objective information into sources of vindication for political goals under such individuals like Brennan.

I have no reason to believe there is a different dynamic in the US military - as abundantly evidenced by Afghanistan: both the 20 years of "winning" and the specific details from the "Afghanistan papers" and other reports.

And these intel agency plus military politicization feeds into a civilian political establishment focused far more on their own solipsistic world than reality.

It is a veritable Gresham's dynamic of lies backing agendas which encourage more lies.

And so whatever "realistic" understanding may be possessed by individuals is subsumed under the political steamroller.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 9 2022 17:25 utc | 62

Ukraine war: Britons Aiden Aslin and Shaun Pinner sentenced to death

Published

39 minutes ago

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-61745556

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 9 2022 17:27 utc | 63

Quote from OilPrice:

The Biden administration kept the Trump sanctions in place but earlier this year attempted a thaw in bilateral relations in a bid to secure heavy crude imports after it banned all oil imports from Russia.

Sanction relief began to be discernible in May, with Washington letting Chevron negotiate its Venezuelan oil license with PDVSA directly. Then, this month, the U.S. State Department gave the green light to two Europen companies—Italy’s Eni and Spain’s Repsol—to start shipping Venezuelan crude to Europe next month.

The volumes of Venezuelan oil that the two will be allowed to send to Europe will be modest, Reuters reported at the time, citing unnamed sources, and its resale outside Europe would be prohibited but the move is a sign of a change in attitudes in Washington. If sanctions are completely lifted, this could add some 400,000 bpd to global oil supply at a time when such additional supply is very much in demand.
------
Mental disease on both sides of the Atlantic, Biden issuing stupid dictats (following Trump's lead, no less) and EU listening to it. The collective West got itself a global war on the cheap, and the cost to consumers is not small at all. Now some gnomes from Washington are micromanaging European energy trade, down to confiscation (??!!) of individual cargoes.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 9 2022 17:30 utc | 64

I am worried about the Aslin and others sentences. They were not mercenaries in the usual sense; having become Ukrainian citizens or there years prior to the invasion.

Not saying they were great guys who are innocent.

But if sentences are not commuted they could be made into martyrs for an insane British public to escalate the situation in an unpredictable manner.

As a matter of principle death sentences are barbaric.

Posted by: moaobserver | Jun 9 2022 17:34 utc | 65

Posted by: malenkov | Jun 9 2022 17:09 utc | 56

"Regarding the first: One would have to remove from power the entire European ruling class.

As for the second [Deep State outer darkness], as long as the Deep State tosses the occasional bone (or, more likely, scapegoat) to the "deplorables," they'll stay put."

You are probably right.

I remember years ago that there was no flu shot in the US. They had the best year flu-wise in decades. I am sort of hoping that if there is some sort of collapse (admittedly this is extremely vague) that people might realize that things are better and find a way to shut things down for a period whilst the society goes into a period of self-reflection and figuring out a new system.

In the States, the deplorables are building, if nothing else, a strong sense of community and solidarity. If they organize well for the mid-terms but get no results, and especially if it seems there is foul play again, then afterwards they might finally turn from federal to local and perhaps there may be some areas that find ways to secede or simply claim their own autonomy (towns, counties, whatever).

But I agree: most likely is what happened in both French and Russian revolutions: a new order put in place by powerful forces from the old order who offer up half of their peer group as scapegoat sacrifices for the mob which they have inflamed and fooled following a period of chaos and, usually, hunger.

Perhaps this reset business - though never yet spelled out - is in the cards: some sort of techno-fascist totalitarian new way of doing things no doubt with all sorts of 'let's be safe and healthy' and 'finally we are beyond the patriarchy' rationales.


Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 9 2022 17:35 utc | 66

moaobserver | Jun 9 2022 17:34 utc | 65

They go there to kill ethnic Russians for reward. Doesn't matter if Ukraine will freely hand out passports to those willing to kill the ethnic Russian population. When he first went to Syria, he fought against the Syrian government. Good riddance to him.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 9 2022 17:42 utc | 67

Posted by: bevin | Jun 9 2022 16:18 utc | 32

Helmer is on to something talking about a collective change of borders as a posible outcome, but signaling the perils, Germany would have claims to Polish lands, add to the mix a law project put forth in the Duma by some Evgeny Fedorov claiming that Lithuania’s declaration of independence is ilegal since there was no exit referendum as required by the laws of the USSR, at first it was not taken seriously but as this article -in Russian- headline says, Lithuanian politicians have their boats ready in case they have to urgently sail to Sweden.

https://www.pravda.ru/world/1717133-litva_russia/

Putin talked to young brilliant minds today, the transcript is not complete yet

http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/68606

Posted by: Paco | Jun 9 2022 17:45 utc | 68

They know everything. The excuses are lies for public consumption. They have had electronic warfare planes flying 24/7/365. What kind of excuses? The same old BS excuses.

Posted by: Kaiama | Jun 9 2022 17:46 utc | 69

moaobserver | Jun 9 2022 17:34 utc | 65 "or there years prior to the invasion."

Do you have any idea what has been going on in Ukraine for the last eight years? he war in the Donbas began eight years ago with the US coup and the US installed government banning Russian language. Over 14000 killed, the majority ethnic Russian civilians.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 9 2022 17:47 utc | 70

TASS today --
[1. ] "Russian President [Vladimir] Putin has outlined the tasks for this special military operation. The fulfillment of these tasks will mean the end of the special military operation," the Kremlin spokesman pointed out.

[2.] This is how he responded to a request to designate the date of the special military operation’s end.

[3. ] At the same time, Peskov did not comment on the statement that the results of the special operation could not be achieved under the current Ukrainian regime."

The third a TASS comment, and a TASS spoiler, tells the tale. Yes, the worm has turned. Saying good-bye to the Nazified leadership is on the way. It was always the part of the plan and rightly so.

Posted by: Lars Lansing | Jun 9 2022 17:49 utc | 71

Posted by: moaobserver | Jun 9 2022 17:34 utc | 65


I am worried about the Aslin and others sentences. They were not mercenaries in the usual sense; having become Ukrainian citizens . . .

If they are Ukrainian citizens there exist no grounds for an insane British public to escalate the situation in an unpredictable manner

Truss and BoJo may blather and bloviate in an insane and unpredictable manner. I wait for our UK contingent to weigh in on the issue but I expect some portion of the population will ask "Why is the UK arming criminals?" and "Why am I paying for expensive arms shipments when I can afford neither petrol or food?"

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 9 2022 17:55 utc | 72

Actually, the White House has no one to pass the buck now. The world knows that it is/was a US proxy against Russia on the Ukraine soil. And, Russia is winning/won. The US/NATO had lost.

This fact is pretty important to the rest of the world, including some of the EU/NATO countries. The leaders of those countries won't mention this, for it'd be terrible for them to accept that. They had backed the US/NATO and they also have lost the game.

By the way, the Polish "leaders" are not at all happy about Germany is arming themselves. They say that might be against Poland, not necessarily against Russia. Nord Stream 2 is not blocked completely, and Nord Stream 1 is working still bringing gas to Germany.

Russia knows that US/NATO/EU had lost, but it won't say that outright. Russia won't forget or forgive the EU for the sanctions. The EU is right here, next door, but the US is across the ocean, so not a problem with Russian nuclear subsmarines just nearby.
--------------------------------------------

Those two British men weren't Ukrainian citizens, so are mercenaries and had been shooting to kill the people of DPR. They were captured by the DPR militia, and not by the Russian forces, as that rag BBC says. By the way, all the foreign mercenaries are (and will be) captured by the DPR and LNR militias.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 9 2022 18:00 utc | 73

I heard on a live-stream that Dominic Raab said that Britain intends to appeal their sentence and that, were this to happen, it would give recognition to DNR jurisdiction. Although this aspect was emphasized, I believe even formal recognition from all European states would be a nothing-burger at this point, as DNR is already busy reshuffling the government to prepare the way for integration with Russia.

Either way, it'll likely take a few months before these mercs are put in front of a firing squad, so I wouldn't exclude any possibilities, including an official pardon.

Posted by: Skiffer | Jun 9 2022 18:04 utc | 74

Posted by: moaobserver | Jun 9 2022 17:34 utc | 65

"As a matter of principle death sentences are barbaric."

And killing innocent civillians is a noble cause? You, Sir, are a gobshite.

Posted by: LizPuss | Jun 9 2022 18:05 utc | 75

Keep your friends close, your enemies closer, and pray RF and China ally against you.

Tzu Biden

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 9 2022 18:06 utc | 76

@ William Gruff | Jun 9 2022 16:43 utc | 46

So imagine if they throw a few of the more expendable Nazis under the bus and agree to have a "properly supervised constitutional convention for the Ukraine" (properly supervised by whom?) Do you really imagine that the US/NATO/Banksters will honour any agreements made? Do you imagine they won't try to subvert the process and call foul on any decisions they don't like?

I consider it a positive blessing that the US and Ukraine are refusing negotiations, it makes it far more difficult to blame the RF for the lack of a peace process. Not being agreement-capable has a massive downside, no-one in their right mind will bother to negotiate with you at all.

I said it from the beginning and I still believe it to be true, the only stable borders possible are the ones that the RF can establish and defend by force, all else is illusory.

Posted by: MarkU | Jun 9 2022 18:07 utc | 77

Why trip up when ascending one flight of stairs, when you can do so on ascending three.

-Tzu Biden

Posted by: Tzu Bidenski | Jun 9 2022 18:09 utc | 78

https://tass.com/economy/1462551

Young Russians increase loan demand. Avtovaz starts building cars again and the McDonalds in Russia will reopen soon under a new logo. The western world is going to be shocked ......

Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 9 2022 18:14 utc | 79

moaobserver @65

Who cares what the British public thinks? And what are they gonna do anyway? Try to irritate Lavrov with their shrill poodle yapping? Send in the "Light Brigade" to take care of the Russian artillery? Good luck with all of that.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 9 2022 18:17 utc | 80

Russian Duma MP Yevgeny Fedorov noted that the resolution of the State Council on the recognition of Lithuania's independence of September 6, 1991 is "illegal" because the Lithuanian SSR did not hold a referendum on secession from the USSR and did not establish a transitional period to resolve all contentious issues. Yevgeny Fedorov submitted a resolution canceling the recognition of the independence of the Lithuanian SSR by the Russian Federation.

By the way, the Russian Federation is the legal successor of the USSR.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 9 2022 18:17 utc | 81

Paco @68--

Yes, Putin is talking to them and giving them a lesson in geopolitics. Then there's the speech I posted at the end of the previous thread that has some finer points about what's happening to the weapons being shipped into and then out of Ukraine. What follows is the speech's conclusion that cites former Outlaw US Empire military, including Twitty:

Instead of a conclusion and as an early reaction that precedes statements by Western delegations, I would like today to quote a few of the major American military commanders who have now resigned. Ironically, the epiphany of most Western officials comes only after resigning.

I will respond to the hypocritical anti-Russian accusations of the OSCE participating States of committing war crimes with the statement of the US Secretary of Defense in 2017-2019, James Mattis: "We look like vile hypocrites ... I recall the Songmi massacre in Vietnam, 1969, when our U.S. servicemen killed 504 civilians in cold blood, including 210 children, and many of them raped. This is a proven fact. But was Richard Nixon convicted as a war criminal?"

To the baseless insinuations that Russia allegedly provoked the global food crisis, I will quote former senior adviser to the US Secretary of Defense, Colonel Douglas McGregor: "They [the presidential administration and the Department of Defense] do not want to admit that they were wrong, that they conducted a colossal disinformation campaign. They do not want to admit that they have put the world on the brink of hunger – by the way, this is especially true in Africa – because they stopped the export of wheat. They don't want to talk about anything really important. They want to pay as much attention as possible to any measures that promise to harm Russia. And in the end, Russia will look pretty good. And Ukraine is destroyed; it is, in fact, a failed state."

And, finally, let me respond to the attempts of Western delegations to present Russia with ultimatums, quoting the statement of the former deputy commander of the US European Command in 2018-2020, Lieutenant General Stephen Twitty: "The longer the conflict continues, the weaker Kiev's position will become in the next negotiations ... We are sorely lacking in the diplomatic component. If you notice, there is not even an attempt to agree on any negotiations, there is no diplomacy. And I don't think we can do that, given what Putin thinks of us." [My Emphasis]

They don't want to talk about anything really important.

That goes for domestic policy too. Gas prices will bankrupt city police forces, fire departments and other emergency services fuel budgets nationwide well before the end of the fiscal year on 30 September.

Looks like the dome covering Fantasy Land is about to shatter and reality will rush in and flood the place causing mass panic. Meanwhile, Europe keeps dancing to the music emanating from Fantasy Land. Perhaps when the dome there breaks, Europeans will awaken from their stupor and begin to stand up for themselves.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 9 2022 18:24 utc | 82

HH | Jun 9 2022 17:22 utc | 61

Terminology check: that's oligarchs, not "business elite".

Posted by: sippy the shot glass | Jun 9 2022 18:29 utc | 83

Remember: wherever you go, there you're not!
Tzu Bidet

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 9 2022 18:32 utc | 84

Who cares what the British public thinks? And what are they gonna do anyway?

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 9 2022 18:17 utc | 80

Typical American response. Yeah what does anybody outside the US matter anyway? Precisely the neocons thought.

Posted by: laguerre | Jun 9 2022 18:34 utc | 85

Biden admin can run but they can't hide from their extraordinary recklessness and incompetence across all domestic and international fronts. They are destroying the EU and the USA in the process, at warp speed. All USA and EU leaders and administrations need to be removed ASAP for the sake of the entire world.

Posted by: JustTruth | Jun 9 2022 18:35 utc | 86

What is needed now is a reliable aggregator of honest news coverage from citzen sources on the Internet. That will finally kill the evil thing that corporate mass media has become.
@ HH | Jun 9 2022 15:45 utc | 10

I'm happy and sorry to tell you: Welcome, if you lived here you'd already be home. I've come to think of MoA as our more aggressively Dadaist, real-world version of Douglas Adams' Restaurant At the End of the Universe. Look elsewhere if you like -- you may not find any more reliable aggregator than this one, right here.

Truth up the yin-yang, for all the world to see, popping bullshit bubbles safely, with ten-foot poles. If truthtelling were in fashion, b would be a global superstar. Truth salvos landing from all over the dang place in the comments, too. Hate to break it to you: Our collective firehose of hypersonic truth has not, as yet, killed the "evil thing that corporate mass media has become" -- not so's you'd notice, anyhow. Oh well. It's the thought that counts, I suppose.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 9 2022 18:38 utc | 87

Here's a sneak preview of the political infighting as the midterms approach where gas prices/pocketbook issues will reign supreme:

US Senator Debbie Stabenow is facing a flood of criticism on social media after she bragged about the advantages of having an electric car, which means she doesn’t have to think about soaring fuel costs as she travels from Michigan to Washington, DC....

Social media users were quick to point out that millions of people are currently struggling to put fuel in their cars, never mind buying expensive electric vehicles.

Representative Mike Kelly said that Stabenow’s remarks demonstrate her party’s detachment from reality. He stressed that the average annual income of his constituents amounts to $54,627.

“Avg. EV price: 60,000. Democrats don’t understand the problems of everyday Americans,” Kelly wrote on Twitter.

Well Mr. Kelly, Republicans really don't either. The Commonfolk have no representatives in Waashington that really work in their interest.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 9 2022 18:38 utc | 88

Ukranian Commander defects to Russia and advises his men to do so.
Pat Lancaster
forgive me if already posted
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il6jeRyDtIA&t=13s

Posted by: ld | Jun 9 2022 18:40 utc | 89

Ritter has an interesting bit of analysis which he gleaned from Lavrov's most recent speech. It will give us armchair analysts some things to chew on. Essentially, denazification may be militarily limited to Eastern Ukraine and it may hopefully be pressed for economically by the EU itself in the rest of Ukraine. Check out his interview from this morning to learn more:

https://t.co/V7RXAlHIxw

Posted by: Billy Bob | Jun 9 2022 18:40 utc | 90

The British mercenaries convicted in the DPR could have their sentences quashed. One wonders if the authorities of the DPR are biding their time to see if the Westminster government looks to cut some sort of deal for them, and in return the DPR will receive recognition from Westminster as an autonomous state.


"Head of the DPR Denis Pushilin Commented the possibility of pardoning foreign mercenaries convicted in the republic."

"Pushilin added that they did not hide their crimes. The head of the DPR also stressed that the British authorities did not appeal to the republic about their subjects. In his opinion, neither Londonnor Rabat not interested in the fate of mercenaries."


https://ria.ru/20220609/pushilin-1794363937.html

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jun 9 2022 18:41 utc | 91

ostro @81--

Thanks for posting that delightful comment and welcome to the bar!!

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 9 2022 18:42 utc | 92

I shouldn't have written that without mentioning: I've noticed b is becoming a global superstar (in my fond fantasies, at any rate). For instance: Caitlyn Johnstone keeps referencing the master's peerless tracking of media follies. Bravissimo!

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 9 2022 18:43 utc | 93

Not of any importance but a wee bit interesting.


"The logo of the new Russian McDonald's will be French fries and a burger on a green background."

Take a look at the logo here.


https://ria.ru/20220609/makdonalds-1794180888.html


Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jun 9 2022 18:46 utc | 94

B: "I do not believe for one moment that U.S. intelligence services do not know what is going on in Ukraine and in Kiev. They know that the Ukraine has lost the war and will have to sue for peace as soon as possible."
That's the most likely reason I see for Macron openly trying to push for talks, negotiations, settlement, peace deal, and for Scholz reluctance to support the war effort by sending tons of weapons: their very own intelligences report that it's hopeless for Ukraine in the long run and they don't want to see more bloodshed and destruction of a nearly allied and definitely aligned country.

As for senior officials talking and negotiating with the winning enemy to save their asses, well, even a crazy ideological scum like Himmler ended up doing it.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Jun 9 2022 18:50 utc | 95

Come on. There is no intelligence failure. Like failure to find WMD was an intelligence failure. Yeah right. No one in the real US leadership thought for a moment Ukraine would beat Russia. Oh I forgot, the US is stupid. They NEVER understand anything! The Martyanov line gets tiresome after a while. And Johnson, the intel people were afraid to tell the pols the truth. Yeah sure. Facts: The US goaded Ukraine and Russia into war. The objective was to cut Europe, particularly Germany, off from Russian energy--and by extension cut off China from Europe as well. The US saw the writing on the wall. Leave things alone and watch Europe get sucked into Asia--or throw a wrench in the works and grab Europe while rather than lose it. Mission accomplished. Better to see the world fragment into 2 blocks rather than lose it all. Bonus points, it's good for US energy and agriculture.

Posted by: Rodrigo | Jun 9 2022 18:52 utc | 96

As a matter of principle death sentences are barbaric.

Posted by: moaobserver | Jun 9 2022 17:34 utc | 65

Insofar as a death sentence is essentially what has been handed down to Julian Assange without the benefit of a trial at all (only for jumping bail and extradition), I agree with your sentiment. On the domestic front, there are too many innocent people to count who've been put to death in Texas alone.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 9 2022 18:53 utc | 97

Before I forget, I noticed Ukraine government has admitted losing 100 dead and 500 wounder a day, now. That's probably a way to prepare their people for incoming negotiations.
I'm fully with Twitty as well: you have to begin to negotiate and push your starting offer when your position is strong - because you know how bad your position is right now, but can't guess how awful it can become in the next months or years, and then you'll never have a deal as good as the one you could get now. Of course, this applies globally, that principle applies to Putin as well, and to other warring parties in other wars.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Jun 9 2022 18:55 utc | 98

As an Erzatz for the loss of the Ukraine. NATO is now pushing for finlds Helinki agreements from the 1980ies being abrogated and disheveled, so as to "open a second front" against Russia.
As a Norwegian, i know the Tzar of russia saved half of Norway from the British-imposed blocade of corn imports that killed off poor folks in the South of Norway 1807-16, and that Russia helped Norway gai full independence in 1905. None of these facts mentioned by Zelensky when he spoke to the Norwegian parliament on his manifucklated video.link from his bunker there in his North American Ukraine boarder status.

Posted by: Tollef Ås/秋涛乐/טלפ וש | Jun 9 2022 19:01 utc | 99

Just do it:
Plausible deniability

A basic in West politics


P. D. is the ability of people, typically senior officials in a formal or informal chain of command, to deny knowledge of or responsibility for any damnable actions committed by members of their organizational hierarchy. They may do so because of a lack or absence of evidence that can confirm their participation, even if they were personally involved....

Posted by: Casablanca | Jun 9 2022 19:03 utc | 100

next page »

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Working...