Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 23, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-94

Only news & views related to the Ukraine conflict ...

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Posted by b on June 23, 2022 at 14:25 UTC | Permalink

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Hmm, new post. Troll squad asleep at the switch. Wake up guys

Posted by: ptb | Jun 23 2022 14:47 utc | 1

Things have gotten so bad in Ukraine that even NBC is forced to ante up some truth:

www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/as-death-toll-mounts-frustration-grows-among-ukrainian-military-families/ar-AAYLCr5?ocid=uxbndlbing

Posted by: Citizenfitz | Jun 23 2022 14:52 utc | 2

situational map, from Rybar. Very rapid changes in past 2 days.

https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FFV8Vj-KaAAANkrX.jpg (note alt link, seems to have more reliable connection. original via here https://t.me/rybar/34310):

Seems to have stopped short of the Lisichansk oil refinery for the time being, which would be the point for the true blockade of Lisichansk. Gotta think UA forces are desperately laying mines and sending in blocking units to stabilize things.

Posted by: ptb | Jun 23 2022 15:01 utc | 3

Habeck & Greens pushing German economy over the edge. Habeck says Russian reduction of gas delivery to Germany due to maintenance is an economic war on Germany, it threatens the German economy.

What Habeck isnt telling is that Russia could deliver gas through the Nordstream 2 pipeline or he doesnt need to switch off the remaining nuclear power plants.

Why isnt Habeck considering either? Because turning on the pipeline means letting Russia win the stand off and going against the anti-nuclear policy of the Greens. In both cases, the Greens want to push Germans to take on a Green lifestyle, remove the energy intensive industries, because they are responsible for the heavy carbon foot print.

They think that the economic wealth is just there and needs simple distribution. To rebuild Germany according to their zealotry, the Greens need Putin as an enemy, that only he makes Germans suffer, not their religion-induced Green policy decisions.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Jun 23 2022 15:03 utc | 4

@4 Arne Hartmann
Do you think Germans will take his claims at face value?

Posted by: ptb | Jun 23 2022 15:09 utc | 5

seems to me like the greens in germany are a branch of washington dc......... they have to be on the payroll..

Posted by: james | Jun 23 2022 15:14 utc | 6

The Donbass Salient and WW2 Normandy, the Parallels

Posted by: james | Jun 23 2022 15:25 utc | 7

I suspect Hungary might become an oasis for German industrial conglomerates and other manufacturing businesses, within Ursula's La-La land a.k.a EU.

Posted by: unimperator | Jun 23 2022 15:25 utc | 8

Condemned British mercenary Aiden Aslin speaking from prison in centre of Donetsk after his verdict. He is saying his prison is being shelled by Ukrainian forces. He can hear the shells landing and the debris raining on the prison.
My Emotions After Trial Verdict

Independent reporter Patrick Lancaster reporting from outside what appears to be the same prison, showing the craters just next to the prison wall (last part of video).
Ukraine Continues To Shell Civilian Infrastructure In Center Donetsk.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 23 2022 15:26 utc | 9

@Arne Hartmann | Jun 23 2022 15:03 utc | 4

The "greens" give me flashbacks to Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. The urge to destroy society is the same.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 23 2022 15:29 utc | 10

@Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Jun 23 2022 15:03 utc | 4

What debunks all the "greens", and addicts to the new the religion of calentologia, in the world, whose policies consist in trasvasing ingent quantities of wealth from the suffered working masses and taxpayers to foreign funds who own them, which have invented "green energy" as a new scam model of business to survive in the rentier loop of financial capitalism, is this photo, of Ellys´ Island, NY, a milenia ago and today....

https://t.me/rafapalreal/21730

Posted by: Ghost of Mozgovoy | Jun 23 2022 15:29 utc | 11

@4 Arne Hartmann
Do you think Germans will take his claims at face value?

Posted by: ptb | Jun 23 2022 15:09 utc | 5

Not all, those who think for themselves will speak out, but they will be drowned out by the majority that believes faithfully in everything that MSM is telling them. The human brain is easily manipulated by repetition. Even if you know better, repetition can override previous knowledge.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Jun 23 2022 15:34 utc | 12

additional Lysichansk update -

Repeating from aggregations by Cassad, Rybar, Slavyangrad, on telegram, and Geroman (@GeromanAT) on nitter/twitter, and Military Summary (Belarus? guy I think?) on youtube, so check them:

UA seems to have given up on the Gorskoe/Zolotoe area, some combination of tactical withdrawal, abandonment, exhaustion, out-rotation of better units, refusal of reinforcements to go in, and surrender of whoever was left.

This leaves Lisichansk's southern side directly exposed, and the remaining territory on the eastern bank of the river undefensible.

For blockade, we look at what Rybar marks on the map as the oil refinery, aka the locality of Verhnokamyanka (not to be confused with the adjacent Verhnokamyanske, immediately to the West!). The approach to it might be interesting. It is at a slightly higher elevation, about 200m, vs around 100m for the parts RF just took. To proceed along a line perfectly following the topographical map, at that elevation (not clear if it's necessary, but probably convenient) would involve going to it from the SSW, along what google marks as Spirne, Berestove, and Nagorne. Not coincidentally, the first of these points are also being attacked. Will be interesting to see if this area of elevation is defended.

As yet, there seems to be no movement by RF to close in from the Northern direction.

Finally, there is the telegram report that UA official for the Lugansk region is publicly contemplating withdrawal from Lisichansk area.

Posted by: ptb | Jun 23 2022 15:49 utc | 13

Putin plays black-
Checkers -

https://twitter.com/5thSu/status/1539973609019813898/video/1

Posted by: Stonebird | Jun 23 2022 15:49 utc | 14

AZ OSINT
@AZmilitary1
·
10m
‼️Russia’s SWIFT substitute ready for BRICS Nations-Putin

Putin said that banks from BRICS nations can freely connect to the System for Transfer of Financial Messages (SPFS),Russia’s alternative to SWIFT.

Financial institutions of🇧🇷🇮🇳🇨🇳🇿🇦can now be connected to SPFS‼️

Posted by: Down South | Jun 23 2022 15:59 utc | 15

Do you think Germans will take his claims at face value?

Posted by: ptb | Jun 23 2022 15:09 utc | 5

Hardly matters, because every German political party with a snowflake's chance in Hell of jumping the 5% hurdle is pushing exactly the same line. Not even AfD is offering any serious resistance.

Posted by: malenkov | Jun 23 2022 16:00 utc | 16

Johnathan Powell (Blairite negotiator for Northern Ireland agreement in the 90s) has an article in the Guardian;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/23/putin-not-ready-end-ukraine-war-prepared#comments

"Putin is not yet ready to end the Ukraine war. When he is, we must be prepared"

Seems to be flying a kite for the public, and unusually for the Guardian, comments are allowed on the piece.

This seems to be some sort of information gathering operation on the current liberal public mood by MI6.

It is instructive to read the highly voted comments.

About 99% of all comments are frenzied and delusional. Lots of sanctimony and self-righteousness. Take your pick.

The Western liberal public is totally convinced that RF forces are pathetically weak and incompetent, Putin is the new Hitler who will shortly be hung up on a lamppost, and Russia needs to be decolonised - only question is how exactly.

I am wondering if the hysterical mood and broken brains were intended by TPTB, or if they are at all worried about the unpredictable effects thereof...

Since the Habermasian idea of "civil society" has been replaced with algorithmic echo chambers - discourse has become rather uncivil. And incapable of reflection and thus change.

Posted by: moaobserver | Jun 23 2022 16:08 utc | 17

Re: Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Jun 23 2022 15:34 utc | 12

Not all, those who think for themselves will speak out, but they will be drowned out by the majority that believes faithfully in everything that MSM is telling them. The human brain is easily manipulated by repetition. Even if you know better, repetition can override previous knowledge.

Rubbish.

The MSM Media is WIDELY DISTRUSTED in many of these countries - including Germany.

People largely DISTRUST the MSM and yet you somehow think the that these same people will somehow believe the tripe that is served up on that very same Distrusted MSM.

You must think people are STUPID!

That makes literally no sense. It's quite literally nonsense. You are positing Cognitive Dissonance is a real thing!

Posted by: Julian | Jun 23 2022 16:11 utc | 18

@ Julian | Jun 23 2022 16:11 utc | 18

What you say is both true and untrue. It is true in that the MSM is widely mistrusted in the Western world. It is untrue in that people implicitly trust the MSM when it reports something that reinforces prejudices the public already has. That explains the devastating triumph of anti-Russian MSM propaganda.

Posted by: malenkov | Jun 23 2022 16:16 utc | 19

@Julian | Jun 23 2022 16:11 utc | 18

I have a colleague I have known for many years. We rarely talk about politics but I have made my position clear to him about the coof, Ukraine and a few other topics. He constantly cites the BBC to convince me I am wrong, even though I have explained that I do not trust the BBC at all. It happened again yesterday.

So yes.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 23 2022 16:20 utc | 20

Mercouris' most recent show talks about an RUSI.org article reviewing the flawed Western assumptions on Russian military industrial capacity and Western capabilities/needs for same:

Mercouris June 23

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 23 2022 16:21 utc | 21

Posted by: Julian | Jun 23 2022 16:11 utc | 18

Who is mainly responsible for the outbreak of the war in Ukraine? In Germany, 66% say Russia.

Which country constitutes the biggest obstacle to peace between Russia and Ukraine? In Germany, 63% say Russia.

Which ties with Russia should be cut off as a result of the war in Ukraine? In Germany, 57% say all economic ties.

https://ecfr.eu/publication/peace-versus-justice-the-coming-european-split-over-the-war-in-ukraine/

These numbers are the work of the MSM, repetition is key to propaganda, to convice ppl of what is tro and untrue. Actual truth DOES NOT matter.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Jun 23 2022 16:27 utc | 22

Azmilitary1, [23/06/2022 12:20]
The situation near Lisichansk is developing rapidly, as it should during the agony

The agony of the UAF near Lisichansk — flight under fire

Lisichansk. It looks like the order for the retreat of the UAF was received and the units went for a breakthrough.
Russian aviation has been lifted into the sky, artillery in this area is working closely along the Seversk-Lisichansk road, trying to destroy everything that moves along it. Everything is very much like the flight of the UAF from Ilovaysk, only on a much larger scale.

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jun 23 2022 16:28 utc | 23

@17 Describing the 'peace camp' as 'cut and run' really stood out for me. I kept reading but Powell's bias is obvious. Negotiations, if they happen, won't get anywhere with attitudes like that.

Posted by: dh | Jun 23 2022 16:54 utc | 24

New inventive use of drones in country 404. Use a 3D printer to create add on bomb fins. Drop modified hand grenades by modified drone on target from above. Hiding in the trench or fox hole......

For continued use of modified drone . Do not use the the zero timer fuse of those grenades in the marked in the red box . Designated "Booby Trap Use Only"...........

Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | Jun 23 2022 17:04 utc | 25

I just watched a You Tube John Mearsheimer interview with a typical pro-Ukraine liberal German interviewer named Jasmin Kosubek. The interview took place 4 days ago and Kosubek came out of the gate attacking Putin and the RF and looking for red meat, something she didn't get much of from J.M. She is young and naive, and really seemed to be frustrated at times when J.M. didn't confirm her world view about Russia and Ukraine. Oddly, I too got frustrated with J.M. at times as well. The conversation finally got around to when the problems with the US / NATO encroachment towards Russia, especially during 2008 and 2014. Kosubek didn't seem to be well informed about those historic moments and I felt that J.M. was reluctant to give a thorough update about the 2014 Euromaidan coup, and the US role in it. In fact, while the 2014 "problem" was mentioned at least a dozen times by both Kosubek and J.M. the Obama Administration, and US State Departments role in it was never mentioned even one time.
Also, towards the end, Kosubek wanted to talk about the hypocrisy of the US / Nato wars in places like Iraq, Syria, and Libya. She asked J.M. why there was such a ruckus about Russia's invasion of Ukraine but not the US invasions of Iraq, etc. J.M. moved the conversation to US and Western Russophobia. For me this was a terrific opportunity to make a comparison with the US/NATO role in Serbia, the destruction of Yugoslavia, and the Unipolar hegemonic behavior of the US.
I have listened to John Mearsheimer on many occasions since the 2014 Euromaidan coup, and he has never shown any sign of backing down or fudging the facts. But in this interview, I felt that he must be under some pressure to lower his tone regarding the US role in its proxy war with Russia. If you haven't already seen it, it is worth the hour. It is on You Tube and it is called "I Hope I'm Wrong."

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Jun 23 2022 17:05 utc | 26

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jun 23 2022 16:28 utc | 23

Yes, feels like the big "denoument" has been triggered, hopefully this will cool some western heads, even though they do not care about Ukrainians being sacrificed.

Posted by: Paco | Jun 23 2022 17:14 utc | 27

James @6 Jun 23 2022 15:14 utc

I think the joke is that the only green thing about them is their Atlantic Council Camo.

Posted by: S.O. | Jun 23 2022 17:16 utc | 28

Re: breakdown of UA Lisichansk position

Yep, here's one claiming RF control of all of Vovchoyarivka. Not sure if report is premature - ie in case UA controls the elevation to the West of that pointy bit. Grain of salt so far for this detail.

https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FFV8_7QiUEAYFAbk.jpg

Posted by: ptb | Jun 23 2022 17:25 utc | 29

@4 Arne Hartmann
In Germany it has become socially fashionable to be Green. Many rather boring middle class people vote Green in order to fit in with the cool crowd. They will only change their vote once they lose their jobs, and even then many will not make the connection.

Posted by: xeen | Jun 23 2022 17:26 utc | 30

Re: Donbass vs. Normandy

Posted by: james | Jun 23 2022 15:25 utc | 7

The Donbass Salient and WW2 Normandy, the Parallels

On June 6th, 1944, the Western Allies landed on the French Normandy coast. They faced the fortifications that the German army had spent years building, together with a geography of small towns and hedgerow-bounded fields; an environment that lent itself to the advantage of a defensive war. It took to the end of July for the Allies to break out from Normandy, even with absolute air superiority and a great advantage in numbers. The Allies utilized extensive carpet bombing, and the destruction of supply routes, to aid the breakout. Once the breakout was achieved, the Allies advanced at a rapid rate only stopped by supply chain and supporting column issues; stopping at the Rhine.

I wrote about this a month ago. But I think the Ukrainian strategy more closely resembles the Nazi failure in the Falaise pocket, that followed after the breakout from the Normandy beaches.

Another good comparison is the Falaise pocket in Normandy in August 1944. The Germans tried to hold on to the westernmost tip of their salient. No effort was wasted to keep one supply line open. But when the end comes, everything collapses at once. In Falaise 50,000 Germans were taken prisoner and another 10,000 killed.

Kiev and Berlin follow a similar strategy. A false belief in an eventual victory leads to catastrophic results.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | May 20 2022 22:06 utc | 126

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jun 23 2022 17:30 utc | 31

Tell your friend that you are also angry with Putin (zinger coming).

Tell your friend, and get them to nod with you:

Here is what Putin should have done instead of invading.

1) Putin should have negotiated a peace deal over the eastern Ukraine.

2) He should have gotten UN approval for his deal.

3) He should have dissuaded the Donbas from declaring their independence.

4) Year in and out, Putin should have ignored the artillery and missile attacks upon the civilian population of Donbas
and continued to negotiate for peace.

(remember to keep nodding so that your friend also nods in agreement)

5) Putin should have used diplomacy and negotiation for years instead of invading.

6) Putin should have ignored the build up of Ukrainian offensive forces at the line of contact with the Donbas.

7) Putin should have ignored the vicious ethnic-cleansing rhetoric from the Nazi elements in Ukraine
and continued to use diplomacy.

(keep nodding)

8) Putin should have urged the Donbas to remain as part of a federalized system with Ukraine
one with protected rights for the citizens of the Donbas.

9) Putin should have dissuaded the US and EU from building up the offensive forces of Ukraine.

10) Putin should have used diplomacy and negotiations continuously for years, whatever it takes.

11) Putin should have ignored the increased attacks upon the Donbas by Ukraine.

12) Putin should not have invaded.

At this point you turn to your friend and ask if they agree.
They will.

At this point you inform your friend that Putin did all of those things.
And for years.

Inform your friend that at the last moment of years of diplomacy, years of increased offensive build up by Ukraine,
Ukraine up-ed their attacks upon the Donbas, increased their rhetoric, including talk of acquiring nukes
and maximized their forces at the contact line with the Donbas. The West had proven that diplomacy was now a dead horse.
A full attack upon the Donbas by Ukraine was imminent (a repeat of what had happened in 2014), so Putin
preempted the Ukraine attack.

(edits invited)

Posted by: librul | Jun 23 2022 17:40 utc | 32

Mearsheimer is going to come out of this as one of the most influential thinktankniks in the west, but only behind closed doors where the narrative isn't as important and reality can sometimes be acknowledged. A bittersweet apogee to his career.

Posted by: Cesare | Jun 23 2022 17:42 utc | 33

@ S.O. | Jun 23 2022 17:16 utc | 28

yes.. it is those greenbucks that make them green....

@ Petri Krohn | Jun 23 2022 17:30 utc | 31

hi petri.. i recall you making that connection a month ago too... roger, the fellow who wrote the article does participate here at moa as well.. maybe this will interest you or others here - A Skeptic’s Best Guess On Final Map this is also from someone who posts here occasionally and it was also written end of may....

Posted by: james | Jun 23 2022 17:44 utc | 34

@Posted by: librul | Jun 23 2022 17:40 utc | 32

edit

Putin made clear to the West that the expansion of NATO into Ukraine
was seen as an existential threat - the very existence of Russia was at stack.
Thus the importance of a negotiated deal.

Posted by: librul | Jun 23 2022 17:46 utc | 35

Re: Donbass vs. Normandy

I was thinking much the same, slow careful progress kilometre by kilometre, focussing on destruction of the enemy armed forces

Another similar factor which is that in the Donbass the local population are friendlies so local civilian casualties need to be minimised. Excessive fire , either artillery, missiles or air strikes as some people have suggested to eliminate Ukrop artillery currently shelling Donetsk are not in my view acceptable

Once the Donbass is fully liberated the Russians can go the full Genghis on Western Ukraine which is populated by hostiles who in my opinion frankly deserve it

Posted by: Aslangeo | Jun 23 2022 17:49 utc | 36

xeen @ 30


Oh, they'll be cool alright .. dropping to downright frigid by November!

Fools! Get woke, go minus centigrade.

Posted by: polecat | Jun 23 2022 17:54 utc | 37

Who is mainly responsible for the outbreak of the war in Ukraine? In Germany, 66% say Russia.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Jun 23 2022 16:27 utc | 22

Sadly the Federal German politicians state funded think tank. Lack zero cynics Add a heavy infestation of Yankee Pirate spies. Who routinely supply fiction. To all German Federal politicians on the email list.........

Now, there is one very brave female German reporter named Alina Lipp. She is covering the nazi disinfection trash removal . From the Russian/DPR/LPR side of the contact line. The Federal German prosecutors have commenced legal action to silence her. She also reported her father's bank accounts were frozen by Federal Order.

The current German ministry of truth only allows all reports in the German media to reflect the Ukrainian point of view.

When you are only allowed to see 2% of the truth from the real world in your native language and English media. Your conclusions are thus misdirected in the direction as intended.................

I would suspect when the smoke and mirrors from foggy bottom finally clears. The angry irate lied to politicians from this state funded think tank . Will find itself with zero funds in the next Federal budget.........

Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | Jun 23 2022 18:04 utc | 38

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Jun 23 2022 17:05 utc | 26

I watched another recent presentation (in Italy?) by Mearsheimer and I noticed that he didn't mention the MINSK accords. I don't recall it (if he did it wasn't stated as being a big deal). I'd have to go back and watch previous videos to see if he also failed to bring this up/emphasize it/them.

Posted by: librul | Jun 23 2022 17:40 utc | 32

Great post! Unfortunately most folks won't give you the time to get through that list. People have their minds made up [for them] already. THE point will be made following the collapse of the collective West. IF people approach you to ask you for information, and they're sincere, THEN use your precious time (otherwise it's a waste- the idea is to out-live the folks pushing the false narratives- if you exhaust yourself trying to convince people then you're but a casualty on the side of the road): I've actually had a couple people ask me about the "war" and I've responded- one person has followed up with me (no word from the other); so, figure I've met my quota (though there's also my wife- she's a very quick study and fully understands [I imagine there are lots of couples who aer split]).

Posted by: Seer | Jun 23 2022 18:15 utc | 39

Germans need to review the various international polls that indicated that the US was the biggest threat to world peace. How can Germans square this round peg?

https://www.ibtimes.com/gallup-poll-biggest-threat-world-peace-america-1525008 [2014]
https://www.europereloaded.com/polls-us-greatest-threat-peace-world-today/ [2017]
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/05/993754397/poll-much-of-the-world-sees-the-u-s-as-a-threat-to-democracy [2018? 2021?]

Posted by: Seer | Jun 23 2022 18:21 utc | 40

These numbers are the work of the MSM, repetition is key to propaganda, to convice ppl of what is tro and untrue. Actual truth DOES NOT matter.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Jun 23 2022 16:27 utc | 22

I assume these are polling numbers. I would hazard a guess that polls are distrusted even more than MSM. Sure, many people buy the MSM narrative for a variety of reasons, but how many of those polled say they are on board of MSM propaganda only to avoid aggravation, arguments, or, depending on their position, potential sanctions.

Posted by: Pagan | Jun 23 2022 18:24 utc | 41

re: he didn't mention the MINSK accords
. . .which were institutionally formatted into the unanimously adopted (and universally disregarded) Security Council resolution 2202 (2015) which outlined the path to resolve the situation in Ukraine, in addition to other tools and mechanisms.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2022 18:25 utc | 42

@Bad Deal Motors On #25
Hardly. ISIS was doing that a long time ago

ISIS drone workshop in Mosul 2017

I remember reading a long article which talked about how ISIS/Daesh was using 3D tech to modify 200mm mortar bombs - adding longer fins to increase range.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 23 2022 18:31 utc | 43

For those who do not have access to Sputniknews:

"Even after all efforts to reduce traffic to Sputniknews and RT.com, consumption of Russian propaganda is still higher than before the war (~60MM per month in the US, on par with the WSJ)," the company (Microsoft) said on Wednesday.

Since January 2022, there has been a significant increase in traffic to Russian media websites in the US, according to the report. The peak of Russian media content consumption activity occurred on February 24, when it spiked 82%, Microsoft added.

Sputnik's International News website boasts more than 40 million hits from January to May 2022. After scoring 5.3 million hits during January, Sputnik's website exceeded 13 million views in March. Sputnik International's US-based audience increased from 29% of its entire audience in March to 41.5% in April and 42.9% in May.
The situation in Ukraine has been similar, with the consumption of content Microsoft designated as "Russian propaganda" having grown by 216% since the last week of February, hitting a peak on March 2, the report said. It began to decline afterwards but still remains at a level higher than before the start of Russia’s military operation in Ukraine, Microsoft noted."

Posted by: Pagan | Jun 23 2022 18:39 utc | 44

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2022 18:25 utc | 42

And in case folks haven't read it yet, here's a link to the Minsk Agreement (note that there is NO instruction to Russia):

https://www.unian.info/politics/1043394-minsk-agreement-full-text-in-english.html

Posted by: Seer | Jun 23 2022 18:41 utc | 45

Posted by: xeen | Jun 23 2022 17:26 utc | 30:

In Germany it has become socially fashionable to be Green. Many rather boring middle class people vote Green in order to fit in with the cool crowd. They will only change their vote once they lose their jobs, and even then many will not make the connection.

Right on! What you wrote is the best testimony to why Democracy is a ideology doomed to fail. Leaders are elected by the masses in a democracy. But the 'average' of the masses are very ordinary common-intelligent people, even in advanced northern European nations. Thus the leadership that emerges over time caters to such 'average' mentality, and over time degenerates to 'average' leadership intelligence. It's inevitable. It's doomed.

Doesn't a society want a leadership structure superior to themselves? In intelligence, in morality, in guts, in kindness, in characters, etc. etc.? Instead, the western theory is to brand a elitist leadership to be potentially a breeder of dictatorship and must be avoided no matter what. End result is the dummy leadership circles all around the west.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jun 23 2022 18:49 utc | 46

It's over as regards the end game.
The question is how many more people does it take to die?
The sheer shrill imbecility from the EU is astounding.
And that Norwegian creep fronting NATO.
Nuff said about inane regurgitation of fantasy.

Posted by: Jpc | Jun 23 2022 18:51 utc | 47

I think in a week or two it’ll be time for Russia to close the cauldron. It’s in the interest of everyone for Ukraine to suffer a devastating defeat that forces it to the negotiating table and breaks the tension over Kaliningrad, where the blockade becomes redundant if and when the Ukrainians are ready to capitulate.

Posted by: line islands | Jun 23 2022 18:57 utc | 48

@Posted by: Cesare | Jun 23 2022 17:42 utc | 33

Mearsheimer is a classic Neo-realist, which means that he gives no attention to the internal dynamics of nations. So an anthropomorphized Russian nation state is simply acting as a "rational actor" in its security interests against the existential threat of a Ukraine allied with the US and NATO.

The classical realists looked more into the internal workings of nations, and also into the possible failings of leaders - both intellectually and emotionally (very relevant to today's Western leaders). Many of those classical realists though still didn't get a proper handle on the internal workings of a nation due to their liberalist/elitist traditions - they didn't understand competition between different economic/social systems or the ability of the elite of one nation (e.g. the US) to "own" the elite of others (e.g. Western Europe). E.H. Carr is easily the best of this bunch and his book "The Twenty Year's Crisis 1919-1939"(US$16 new paperback, but can be gotten much, much cheaper used) is excellent, as well as a joy to read (unlike most academic work).

The real war is between the West and the new contender state of China (which has a vastly superior competing economic model) and its allies Russia and Iran that refuse to allow the Western elites to take control of their economies and profiteer off the national resources. The Neo-realists are completely at a loss for why the US doesn't follow "realist" policy, because they don't acknowledge the real motives of Western elites. Kees Van Der Pijl's "The Discipline of Western Supremacy" (US$25 new e-book) is excellent in showing how all social science research in the West (including IR) is structured to hide this reality, and the reality of the functioning of capitalist economies. This is easily the best of his books, and like Carr a joy to read.

Van Der Pijl is from the "Amsterdam School" which uses a neo-Gramscian view of the international system. An excellent primer on this is "Gramsci, Historical Materialism and International Relations" edited by Stephen Gill (US$37 new paperback, but available much cheaper used).

Posted by: Roger | Jun 23 2022 19:26 utc | 49

@Posted by: Aslangeo | Jun 23 2022 17:49 utc | 36

"Another similar factor which is that in the Donbass the local population are friendlies so local civilian casualties need to be minimised."

In France in WW2, the Allies didn't give a damn about the "friendly" population and carpet bombed with little limitation. Paris survived as it was because the German commander in charge retreated and deemed it an "open city" to save it from destruction. Its also documented that Allied soldiers raped many thousands of European women, many from the "friendly" populations. That doesn't even include the many impoverished German women who sold themselves to Allied soldiers to feed themselves and their families (there was a huge food crisis in the Western Allied zones immediately after the end of hostilities). Of course, the Soviet soldiers took their "revenge" on the women of Berlin, and many other nations, for their years of hell and what they had seen German troops do to their own.

The modern Russian armed forces seem to be a great improvement, while the Ukrainian ones are more reflective of the German Army in the East in WW2 - a majority of normal soldiers, but with large contingents of SS.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2334204/The-GIs-raped-France-We-know-mass-rape-German-women-Stalins-soldiers-Now-new-book-reveals-American-troops-committed-thousands-rapes-French-women-liberating.html

Posted by: Roger | Jun 23 2022 19:41 utc | 50

I don't know if any of you read in RT a week or more ago where Oskar Lafontaine reckoned that the German Greens were bought and paid for by the Americans ever since Yugoslavia. He as good as said that they were a CIA front.

Posted by: Blotto | Jun 23 2022 19:41 utc | 51

Posted by: Julian | Jun 23 2022 16:11 utc | 18

"Rubbish.

The MSM Media is WIDELY DISTRUSTED in many of these countries - including Germany."

Your post is rubbish. A large majority of people believed the MSM on the Fauci Flu, China's role in the flu, maskerbating, Russiagate, Skirpal, 911, etc. Most people are like children when it comes to authority.

Like in the Milgram Experiments.

Posted by: Drapetomaniac | Jun 23 2022 19:43 utc | 52

Never before in my life I have experienced a political situation which shows so drastically the nonexistence of real political alternatives. Every party in Germany wants to participate at the system. A system which obviously systematically excludes reasonable alternatives or logic thinking. The grip to power is too seductive.

Democracy is a hoax, which can be overthrown only by an authorative avantguard. But this avantguard will not develope in Germany. Germany has played its role in the 19th and early 20th century. Now it’s becoming irrelevant. May be that’s not so bad.

B, I don’t think there will be soon a new political leadership in Germany that will try to repair the relations to Russia. Change will come from abroad only.

I cannot publish my opinion and articles, because I would hurt my business and networks, and this won’t change. There is no alternative for Germany but staying aside the US. EVERY ALTERNATIVES WOULD BE THE END OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY.

In other words: Germany will have to be defeated a third time to make an end to german imperialism. War is inevitable.

By the way, to our French barflies: the French situation to me seems similar. Stupid wannabes. All of them. When I travelled to France in the 70s and 80s I was astonished that every French we talked to even of the far left, was a nationalist. But idealization of the own nation because of its official antiamericanism is a privilege of underlings.

Posted by: njet | Jun 23 2022 19:45 utc | 53

Updated - Minsk "ship has sailed" said Lavrov recently.

But the principles behind Minsk will be kept.

https://www.lauriemeadows.info/conflict_security/Treaties_of%20_Settlement-Ukraine.html

Posted by: Powerandpeople | Jun 23 2022 19:57 utc | 54

james @ 6

seems to me like the greens in germany are a branch of washington dc

Yeh, more like olive drab than green.


Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jun 23 2022 19:59 utc | 55

james @ 6

seems to me like the greens in germany are a branch of washington dc

--

Yeh, more like olive drab than green.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jun 23 2022 19:59 utc | 55

. . . liberally sprinked with oh-so-eco-friendly brown coal dust.

Posted by: malenkov | Jun 23 2022 20:00 utc | 56

Not sure if this has been reported or not:

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/moldova-tiny-poor-bordering-ukraine-eu-candidacy-85594765

Possible twist per https://twitter.com/n4hpg/status/1540042469970251778?cxt=HHwWhMC8mfGdqt8qAAAA

I believe this move guarantees a future RUS move to take #Transniestria because EU for Moldova signals their hostility to the native Russians in the enclave.

Posted by: Seer | Jun 23 2022 20:02 utc | 57

@Posted by: malenkov | Jun 23 2022 20:00 utc | 56

Baerbock is a graduate of the WEF Young Leaders program, fully bought and paid for (just like Macron and half the Canadian cabinet).

Posted by: Roger | Jun 23 2022 20:02 utc | 58

Dimitri Orlov’s 5 stages of Societal Collapse (2008 and revised many times sincd )

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2008/02/five-stages-of-collapse.html?m=1

Posted by: Exile | Jun 23 2022 20:06 utc | 59

@Posted by: Seer | Jun 23 2022 20:02 utc | 57

Maia Sandu "In 2010, she graduated from the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. From 2010 to 2012, Sandu worked as Adviser to the executive director at the World Bank in Washington, D.C. Sandu speaks English and Russian in addition to her native Romanian" from her Wikipedia entry.

The US elites are very good at buying up Western leaders, or grooming them. A case in point Bulgaria's leader, who spent most of his life in Canada and at Harvard. His government just got a vote of no-confidence for his policies which represent a Bulgarian economic suicide, but he doesn't care as he spews anti-Russian bullshit.

The more you look, the more you find...

Posted by: Roger | Jun 23 2022 20:11 utc | 60

I find Mearsheimer's stuff to be introductory level. Ideally, followed by a dose of Jacques Baud. That is, at minimum, an introductory course to the situation as it stood as the SMO was launched and in the ensuing days.

For people who were shocked back into the real world on 24th Feb. and had to re-acclimate.

Posted by: eyeswideopen | Jun 23 2022 20:14 utc | 61

Ukrainian weapons systems destroyed by week

Week             Air Hel  UAV SAMS  AFV  MRL  Art  Veh
Feb 24 – Mar 2 62 * 53 39 606 67 227 405 Mar 3 – Mar 9 35 * 54 102 380 40 141 344 Mar 10 – Mar 16 14 13 65 29 393 26 146 419 Mar 17 – Mar 23 1 2 85 32 193 27 119 211 Mar 24 – Mar 30 12 5 84 14 243 35 129 310 Mar 31 – Apr 6 1 18 75 11 188 25 107 213 Apr 7 – Apr 13 6 9 32 18 176 28 75 186 Apr 14 – Apr 20 9 2 63 9 231 14 102 171 Apr 21 – Apr 27 2 5 103 22 213 37 100 172 Apr 28 – May 4 7 1 112 12 211 26 160 215 May 5 – May 11 15 13 95 15 179 39 165 178 May 12 – May 18 8 0 121 10 145 31 91 202 May 19 – May 25 7 2 77 10 108 38 120 164 May 26 – Jun 1 7 2 65 4 107 27 70 160 Jun 2 – Jun 8 7 1 79 9 98 33 82 162 Jun 9 – Jun 15 11 1 55 4 98 33 134 135 Jun 16 – Jun 22 7 1 111 9 181 121 120 171
Legend:
Air   Aircraft
Hel   Helicopters
UAV   Unmanned aerial vehicles
SAMS  Surface-to-air missile systems
AFV   Armoured fighting vehicles (tanks, IFVs, APCs, etc.)
MRL   Multiple rocket launchers
Art   Field artillery pieces and mortars**
Veh   Special military vehicles (non-armoured vehicles)

* The total number of helicopters destroyed during the first two weeks (Feb 24 – Mar 9) is 57. Separate data for each week is not available.

** It’s unclear whether self-propelled artillery is included in “AFV” or “Art”. I think it’s in “AFV”.

(Based on Russian Ministry of Defence daily briefings.)

Posted by: S | Jun 23 2022 20:28 utc | 62

Cont’d from #62

Ukrainian weapons systems destroyed by week (chart).

Posted by: S | Jun 23 2022 20:30 utc | 63

Finally, Alex Mercurious consulted a knowledgeable member of the British General Staff who did the numbers.

Russia expended 1100--2000 long range missiles since 24 Feb.

Russia expends ~ 40,000 artillery shells / day.

USA production of comparable missiles in 12 months is 1/4 of what Russia expended thus far.

NATO production of artillery shells is < 10% of russian daily expenditures.

Russia likely is running the war on current production, and likely can continue the war indefinitely.

Ukraine's most recent request for heavy weapons approximates 1/2 the losses claimed by Russian MOD in their daily clobber report.

INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Jun 23 2022 20:34 utc | 64

NATO with cold feet?
The Pentagon spokesman demanded that Lithuania be expelled from NATO. (Z and V channel)

Looks to me like throwing the next nation under the bus.

Posted by: TomD | Jun 23 2022 20:39 utc | 65

@oriental voice
"Right on! What you wrote is the best testimony to why Democracy is a ideology doomed to fail. Leaders are elected by the masses in a democracy. But the 'average' of the masses are very ordinary common-intelligent people, even in advanced northern European nations. Thus the leadership that emerges over time caters to such 'average' mentality, and over time degenerates to 'average' leadership intelligence. It's inevitable. It's doomed."

Let's stipulate that the 2020 election was free and fair. Everyone voted and everyone's vote was counted. There was no fraud.

And it gave us Joe Biden and Kamala Harris?

Do you see where I'm going with this?

Posted by: ian | Jun 23 2022 20:45 utc | 66

Cont’d from #62

The sharp increase in destroyed MRLs during the week of June 16–22 is largely due to a difference of 53 between totals reported on June 22 and June 23. I don’t think it’s possible for so many MRLs to have been destroyed in a single day, so it must be either a readjustment of previously reported data or a mistake.

Posted by: S | Jun 23 2022 20:45 utc | 67

@ TomD | Jun 23 2022 20:39 utc | 65

The Pentagon spokesman is John Kirby, not "US Army General Robert Jefferson," and an admittedly quick Google search for a living US Army general named Robert Jefferson yields nothing.

Posted by: malenkov | Jun 23 2022 20:47 utc | 68

Posted by: Roger | Jun 23 2022 20:11 utc | 60

Great posts and information, many thanks.

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 23 2022 20:51 utc | 69

@TomD #65

The man in the picture is retired USMC four-star general Robert Blake Neller, not “Robert Jefferson”. Please don’t post bullshit information from bullshit Telegram channels that have only 310 subscribers.

Posted by: S | Jun 23 2022 20:56 utc | 70

Doesn't a society want a leadership structure superior to themselves? In intelligence, in morality, in guts, in kindness, in characters, etc. etc.? Instead, the western theory is to brand a elitist leadership to be potentially a breeder of dictatorship and must be avoided no matter what. End result is the dummy leadership circles all around the west.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jun 23 2022 18:49 utc | 46

IMHO, we (in the West) are ruled by meritocracy, folks that got good grades in good places. Good grades requires to provide correct answer on tests. However, curriculum is changing in somewhat Orwellian style. E.g. Greens want clean energy, with a minor recent modification that the dirtiest energy of all is energy from Russia (and also Iran and Venezuela that are under sanctions for some reason). Hence lignite and coal transported across the globe.

The second dirtiest form of energy is Chinese, hence lignite is better than power from Chinese solar panels that are produced, AS EVERYBODY KNOWS, with Uighur slave labor. Another update in Green textbooks.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 23 2022 21:04 utc | 71

@Roger | Jun 23 2022 19:26 utc | 49

Thanks for the suggested reads. I found a free PDF of Carr's book at the below link (whose owner claims to be respectful of intellectual property).

https://www.pdfdrive.com/the-twenty-years-crisis-1919-1939-an-introduction-to-the-study-of-international-relations-d176372414.html

Posted by: David Levin | Jun 23 2022 21:06 utc | 72

@ TomD | Jun 23 2022 20:39 utc | 65
The Pentagon spokesman demanded that Lithuania be expelled from NATO.
. . .fake news -- no General Robert Jefferson exists

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2022 21:16 utc | 73

#71
Your comment about Uighure slaves tells me all I need to know about you and your politics.

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Jun 23 2022 21:16 utc | 74

#71
Your comment about Uighure slaves tells me all I need to know about you and your politics.

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Jun 23 2022 21:16 utc | 75

there were problems with the Milgram experiments.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/the-shocking-truth-of-the-notorious-milgram-obedience-experiments

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jun 23 2022 21:17 utc | 76

I agree with the criticisms made here of Mearsheimer however I've followed him for several years leading up this and I remember him from the cold war days along with Stephen Cohen as men of the system but nevertheless voices of reason willing to confront complex matters. To Mearsheimer credit he's strikingly indignant these days, outraged by the mindlessness of it all, the crudeness of US, UK, EU politicians, overarching media idiocy, one dimensional public discourse, and the senseless spiral towards the abyss. I don't know what he expected to see in his dotage but I don't think it was this. This recent youtube shows his indignation, search for:

The causes and consequences of the Ukraine war A lecture by John J. Mearsheimert

Given his past mainstream stature and his current exile to youtube lectures pretty soon the only place left will be the internet skidrow of blogs. He's the only cold war Russia scholar taking a stand on this disaster. The day he stumbles into MoA I'll buy him drinks all night long.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jun 23 2022 21:18 utc | 77

Right on! What you wrote is the best testimony to why Democracy is a ideology doomed to fail. Leaders are elected by the masses in a democracy. But the 'average' of the masses are very ordinary common-intelligent people, even in advanced northern European nations. Thus the leadership that emerges over time caters to such 'average' mentality, and over time degenerates to 'average' leadership intelligence. It's inevitable. It's doomed.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jun 23 2022 18:49 utc | 46

In my experience, intelligence doesn't seem to correlate with a willingness to think independently (provided that a person's intelligence isn't so low as to preclude independent thought). But I don't see this as negating your main point about the degradation of leadership.

Maybe the root problem is the organization of the world into countries. If instead there was autonomy at the local level, and broader government entities sought to serve rather than rule, we'd be better off. However, I have no idea how to effect this, short of a catastrophe that neuters broader government.

Posted by: David Levin | Jun 23 2022 21:22 utc | 78

news report: Ukraine officially an EU candidate
Whew, that was a close one -- wasn't sure Ursula could pull it off. . ./s

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2022 21:24 utc | 79

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Jun 23 2022 21:16 utc | 75

Might it be that he was being sarcastic? [that he states it as "AS EVERYBODY KNOWS", which I take it to mean propagandized]

Posted by: Seer | Jun 23 2022 21:26 utc | 80

#77
I agree with you about J.M. and Stephen Cohen. Their are not many like them, and in both cases their careers (Cohen has passed) Suffered for their honesty. Still, J.M. is just human and the State Department, the CIA, and the NED is a tough crowd.

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Jun 23 2022 21:28 utc | 81

@ Oriental Voice | Jun 23 2022 18:49 utc | 46
Leaders are elected by the masses . . .leadership that emerges over time caters to such 'average' mentality,
That's the problem -- we shouldn't be electing leaders, to be a democracy first we need facts and then we need representatives.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2022 21:30 utc | 82

Jonathan Cook takes apart the latest from Slavoj Zizek in a scathing piece on how erstwhile western leftist thinkers are both being recruited into the NATO security state fold and used to attack real anti-war/anti-imperialist leftist journalists and academics.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/slavoj-zizek-ukraine-terminal-collapse-anti-war-left/281190/

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2022 21:44 utc | 83

@Ed Nelson #74/75

Piotr is ridiculing the propaganda.

Posted by: S | Jun 23 2022 21:51 utc | 84

@ njet | Jun 23 2022 19:45 utc | 53

You got it!

When the governing structure can be engineered to depend on coalition or proportional representation, all seekers after office attempt to chase whatever the polsters claim the people want. They become nearly identical, with daytoday microadjustments to their public images.

Like the two identical american "parties". Like the mishmash of German regional "parties". Like the boasting Italian losers.

The only real German political party is Alternative für Deutschland. Die Linke used to be a party, but they seem to have lost faith in themselves.

Posted by: Otter | Jun 23 2022 21:51 utc | 85

Read this interesting article about Ukraine not having borders and thus not even existing...
Any other sources confirming that? Would be incredible...

https://europerenaissance.com/2022/02/28/ukraine-does-not-have-any-borders-so-what-exactly-are-they-defending/comment-page-1/

Posted by: Nico | Jun 23 2022 21:52 utc | 86

@82 Don Bacon:

.... we shouldn't be electing leaders, to be a democracy first we need facts and then we need representatives.


Know what the situation actually is, and what our citizen's interests are in that context, and __then__ hire people to effect our interests.

That notion right there would cure a lot of the U.S.' problems. Not all of them, but a good bit of them.

Well said, Don.

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Jun 23 2022 21:57 utc | 87

Maria Zakharova on "the US complicity in the recruitment of US citizens to fight in Ukraine":

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation has noted recent reports on US citizens being recruited and transferred to Ukraine, the Donetsk People's Republic and the Lugansk People's Republic to participate in hostilities, with the complicity of the White House and American intelligence services.

We are referring to the activity of the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington, which runs counter to the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations and involves overt recruitment of fighters to the so-called Foreign Legion of Territorial Defence Forces of Ukraine. According to the American media alone, since the start of the Russian special operation, about 20,000 Americans have expressed their readiness to help Kiev, and the Ukrainian diplomatic mission has officially registered more than 6,000 applications.

At the same time, according to a report by the US Customs and Border Protection, many of the Americans leaving for Ukraine consider themselves adherents of the so-called white supremacy, and are going to fight on the side of the remaining members of the Azov neo-Nazi unit.

We regard the US authorities’ complicity in such activities as further proof of Washington not being interested in resolving the Ukrainian crisis, but, on the contrary, seeking to fuel the conflict and achieve Russia’s strategic defeat.

The Ukrainian attempts to portray these mercenaries for the American and European public as “foreign volunteers” look particularly cynical against this backdrop.

In this regard, we demand that the US authorities curtail this activity of the Ukrainian diplomatic mission, which poses a direct threat to the lives and security of US citizens, openly contradicts the mission’s diplomatic status, and may result in grave and unpredictable international consequences. [My Emphasis]

No, you won't see/hear this reported by BigLie Media. But who would've thought Russia's SMO would also serve to denazify part of the Outlaw US Empire, although it's the Nazis within the Duopoly that most need eradication. I bolded the last phrase to indicate this is a very serious matter that I very much doubt is viewed as such by Biden & Co.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 23 2022 22:05 utc | 88

Don Bacon @82--

Yes! We The People ought to be the leaders, while all federal denizens are mere representatives. AND We The People ought to be able to veto legislation.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 23 2022 22:07 utc | 89

@ 53
They become nearly identical, with daytoday microadjustments to their public images.
Yes, tweedledee and tweedledum Ralph Nader said from a third party which was harassed from the get-go.
I had contributed to Nader so I got a request from his campaign people asking if I knew of a pro-bono lawyer in my state who could help Ralph stay on the ballot, which was being fought by the Democrat Kerry campaign.
. . .So that's why nearly half the electorate doesn't take the trouble to vote, when the two lookalikes aren't sharing the citizen's views. Nader had views very different in many categories from the incumbent parties, so he had to go down. He wrote a book about it: Crashing the Party.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2022 22:12 utc | 90

And you lost it!

The European wars of the 19th and 20th centuries were not German imperialism.

They were British and French, and later american, and other's, wars to prevent Germans from becoming Germany.

Just as they sought, and seek, to prevent Russians from becoming Russia.

Posted by: Otter | Jun 23 2022 22:13 utc | 91

Oriental Voice | Jun 23 2022 18:49 utc | 46

To create the kinds of people that "Western" society can comprehend, continuous and pervasive abuse is required, tendentiously recoded as unalloyed good, of course, so that people can't quit the meager, bland, brightly painted rations Western society is configured to provide. People allowed to grow up and be free adults don't need leaders.

Maybe, just maybe, it's time to put Plato to bed for good now that we have exhausted any possibility of any non-perverse meaning developing out of further Great Chain of Being roleplay. I suggest direct democracy. Assuming your concern is based in the prevention of catastrophe, and not simply a subordination fetish, it's much easier for a society to collectively drive a large vehicle when the steering wheel isn't disconnected.

Posted by: sippy the shot glass | Jun 23 2022 22:21 utc | 92

Germany looks to rationing natural gas after Russia cuts supply!

Really! Because I thought Germany shut down construction on the pipelines and refuses to pay for gas in rubles.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-looks-at-rationing-natural-gas-after-russia-cuts-supply-11655978153

Hell, even if Russia "cuts supply" Germany (and Europe) deserve it.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2022 22:22 utc | 93

update re: finalizing the cut-off of the Lisichansk-Seversk road

https://t.me/voenkorKotenok/37793 (via cassad)

UA forces still hold Verhnekamenka (ie the oil refinery and slight elevation I referred to in comments #3 and #13). But RF attacking forces starting to establish themselves there.

Posted by: ptb | Jun 23 2022 22:27 utc | 94

@62 S

Very nice, keep that coming every week if you can!

Posted by: ptb | Jun 23 2022 22:28 utc | 95

Habeck & Greens pushing German economy over the edge. Habeck says Russian reduction of gas delivery to Germany due to maintenance is an economic war on Germany, it threatens the German economy.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Jun 23 2022 15:03 utc | 4

Meet the greenest city in Germany in the very conservative farming belt in Bavaria. A population of 2400 plus souls. The little township called Wildpoldsried . A community who produces from green renewable electricity sources . . Actually exports the surplus power back into the main grid. The additional community income derived from green energy is reinvested back into community. Generated a massive new local tourist industry. The current ratio exceeds five to one. Is this green power power Bankrupting the local community and destroying the towns basic economy. The answer is a very big no...........

The cunning natives are now working on ways to expand this renewable income from exporting green energy.........

For every Euro used to pay for energy. Is just another Euro removed from the spending capacity within the community.

Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | Jun 23 2022 22:33 utc | 96

@ Ed Nelson | Jun 23 2022 21:16 utc | 74

hi ed.. you will have to read @ Piotr Berman | Jun 23 2022 21:04 utc | 71 post again.. he is referring to what the greens are saying.. "Another update in Green textbooks."

Posted by: james | Jun 23 2022 22:34 utc | 97

"The European wars of the 19th and 20th centuries were not German imperialism.
They were British and French, and later american, and other's, wars to prevent Germans from becoming Germany." Otter@91
To which wars do you refer? The Napoleonic wars? Fair enough.
The Franco Prussian war? Arguable perhaps.
The First World War? What was Germany seeking to become? United with Austria and its empire perhaps?
The second world war? By 1939 Germany had just about everything it had lost at Versailles. Or do you consider conquering Poland and Russia excusable?
Nazis do. Are you one?

Posted by: bevin | Jun 23 2022 22:42 utc | 98

there were problems with the Milgram experiments.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jun 23 2022 21:17 utc | 76

Oh really????

A quick check of Google Scholar shows approximately 67000 plus peer reviews on the very subject in question....

Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | Jun 23 2022 22:49 utc | 99

@ njet | Jun 23 2022 19:45 utc | 53

Let us not forget the Greens!

I have participated in party politics. It is ridiculously easy to influence small naive faith-based parties. You do not need Cookie Monster and 5 billion american dollars.

You need only, if you start early, open eyes and open ears and a quiet persuasive mouth. And yes, initially, a few hundred, a few thousand, later a few million american dollars. To quietly select, help, and shape a suitable true believer to rise to influence and even power. For example, one who believes, or can taught, that to save the earth and the people requires
shutting down evil polluting industries, and unfortunately excess people.

The american definition of "democracy" is "every few years we get to buy a new government".

I think it was Saint Augustine who said, in Latin not English, "It not sinful to lie and cheat and steal to save mankind from eternal damnation."

Posted by: Otter | Jun 23 2022 22:58 utc | 100

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