Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 22, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-92

Only news & views related to the Ukraine conflict ...

The open thread for other issues is here.

Posted by b on June 22, 2022 at 16:57 UTC | Permalink

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"Ukraine has no historical justification as it has only existed as a nation since 1923"

Kaliningrad has only been Russian territory since 1945.

Posted by: Noam A. Larkey | Jun 23 2022 7:57 utc | 101

The first successful vote of no confidence in the recent history of Bulgaria overthrew the government of Kiril Petkov.
https://www.novinite.com/articles/215610/Bulgaria%3A+Petkov%27s+Cabinet+has+Fallen
Something in the air...

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 8:00 utc | 102

I just discovered a 2016 post by Regis Debray with Ray McGovern recounting the Maidan Coup, Obama relationships with Putin, and a a bit of a ramble (as is McGovern's style) about coups in Moscow, NED and other timely reminders as to how we arrived here.

utoob for 26 minutes of Ray McGovern solo.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 23 2022 8:08 utc | 103

Bulgarian Prime Minister Kiril Petkov, after the parliament passed a vote of no confidence in his government, laid responsibility for this, among other things, on the Russian ambassador to the country, Eleonora Mitrofanova.

Maria Zakharova, has already responded to the accusations from Petkov. She humorously pointed out that the list of "guilty" is incomplete: Batman and Catwoman.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 8:09 utc | 104

Regis Tremblay that is...... what a fab typo that was.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 23 2022 8:10 utc | 105

... best to evacuate the treasures promptly.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 22 2022 22:59 utc | 69

---

Best for whom?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/06/arts/design/steinhardt-billionaire-stolen-antiquities.html

Posted by: too scents | Jun 23 2022 8:21 utc | 106

Posted by: Sam | Jun 23 2022 7:24 utc | 98

Bingo! BoJo was rambling about a "European Commonwealth" a few weeks ago. It would begin with the Baltic States and Poland.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 23 2022 8:29 utc | 107

Kharkov today, 23.06.2022 https://youtu.be/MM7neW8Eqo8

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 8:33 utc | 108

Remarks by President Biden on Gas Prices and Putin’s Price Hike
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2022/06/22/remarks-by-president-biden-on-gas-prices-and-putins-price-hike/

So, Putin is running the US...price hikes...

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 8:56 utc | 109

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 8:33 utc | 107

Kharkov today, 23.06.2022 https://youtu.be/MM7neW8Eqo8

What I found striking in Donetsk in the summer of 2016 was that parks were all well maintained, with beautiful flowers. The main streets were cleaned daily by street cleaning trucks. All this in a country the West claimed did not exists. The outdoor restaurants on Pushkin Boulevard were full of people. The only oddity that pointed to war were the daily artillery barrages that started around 9 pm. The fighting was not in the city, but at the front lines 10 km from downtown.

Kharkov still has parks with flowers. But the city seems deserted. Maybe Donetsk is likewise empty, with the daily shelling. But no one is shelling Kharkov.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jun 23 2022 8:58 utc | 110

Article in Russian RT: “Foreseen in advance”: a month before the start of the NMD, the United States prepared HIMARS rocket launchers for use in Ukraine https://russian.rt.com/world/article/1017785-himers-rszo-postavki-kiev-ssha-rossiya
As RT found out, the US Marine Corps (United States Marine Corps) in January 2022 announced a tender for the conversion of 223 army trucks into reloading vehicles for HIMARS rocket launchers. This is about half of the total number of HIMARS in service with the US Army. Washington supplies modified systems to Kyiv as part of military assistance. The date of the announcement of the tender indicates that in America they were preparing in advance for a military conflict using MLRS, experts interviewed by RT believe.
As RT reported earlier, Ukrainian servicemen have begun training on the first four HIMARS multiple rocket launchers. Earlier, the United States announced the delivery of cars until the end of June.

Installations must be promptly maintained, repaired and provided with shells - and this requires almost more machines than the number of installations themselves. This was written by the American edition of Politico.

RT found a government tender indicating that the US urgently needed two hundred support vehicles for HIMARS. The tender was announced in January 2022, a month before the start of the special military operation.

At the request of the Marines

On January 6, 2022, a call for proposals appeared on the US Government Procurement Portal (SAM) to convert conventional military trucks into "reload vehicles" for HIMARS.

“The U.S. Marine Corps Systems Command is requesting information to identify interested vendors with the technical capability to convert up to 223 MTVR trucks into Highly Mobility Rocket Artillery System Reloading Vehicles (HIMARS RSV),” the tender description on the public procurement portal says.
The cost of the contract is not indicated in the document, since the document itself is a request for quotations, that is, the state customer is waiting for proposals from contractors, from which he will choose the most profitable one.

HIMARS RSV is a system that has already entered service, the authors of the document clarify, thereby emphasizing that the Marine Corps decided that it would be more expedient to take existing MTVR trucks and convert them into HIMARS RSV vehicles, instead of ordering new ones.

The MTVR army truck is one of the most popular and has been in service since 2000. The reloading machine looks like a crane with a flat platform, where the ammunition container is located.

Responses to the Marine Corps request were due by March 11, 2022.

Preparing for the inevitable
According to military experts, the installations were probably specially prepared for deliveries to Ukraine, and this was done in advance.

“This may indicate that the States were preparing Ukraine for active operations in the Donbass. Which once again confirms the need for preventive actions on the part of Russia, says Konstantin Blokhin, a leading researcher at the Center for Security Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences. “If Russia had not launched a special military operation, there would have been a tragedy.”

Military historian Yuri Knutov, who studied at the Leningrad Air Defense School and graduated from the rank of lieutenant colonel, said in an interview with RT that multiple launch rocket systems require a significant number of accompanying vehicles, including reloading vehicles.
“They don't load each missile individually. The shells on these installations are located in containers. Reloading occurs by replacing the entire container that has been fired,” he explained. “I think every HIMARS needs at least one escort vehicle.”

Budgeted

Knutov, who now works as the director of the air defense museum in Balashikha near Moscow, believes that the cost of HIMARS was included in the US budget at least six months before deliveries.
An analysis of financial documents shows that the US was preparing for a proxy war with Russia through Ukraine, Knutov says.

“Changes to the budget were made in advance and provided for,” the expert is sure. In any case, the US would have provoked the conflict. Either they would make Ukraine attack, or they would force us to launch a preemptive strike. And part of that plan was the supply of heavy weapons.”

Earlier, RT published a number of materials proving that the United States was preparing Ukraine for military action. Thus, instructors from the US and the UK have been training Ukrainian infantry since 2017 . And since 2014, the United States has increased military assistance to Kiev: in just eight years, Washington sent $3.3 billion to Ukraine.

Four HIMARS units, according to media reports, have already arrived in Ukraine. Four more US promised to deliver in the near future.

Earlier, the US Department of Defense announced that Washington intends to transfer intelligence information to Kiev to strike HIMARS.
Weapons for "non-use"
HIMARS multiple launch rocket systems (M142) entered service with the US Army in 2005, as of 2016, there were 417 of them.

The delivery of HIMARS multiple launch rocket systems to the Ukrainian army was publicly announced on June 1 by US President Joe Biden. The transfer will be carried out as part of the 11th military assistance package worth $700 million. The maximum firing range of this MLRS is 500 km, but Kyiv will receive ammunition capable of hitting targets within 80 km.

The Pentagon claims that the United States is not interested in a conflict with Moscow, and focuses on the fact that the supply of HIMARS to the Kiev regime is carried out on the basis of the non-use of these systems on the territory of the Russian Federation. Formally, Kyiv agreed with this.

The Russian Defense Ministry believes that the Ukrainian leadership will use the MLRS to strike at Russian regions.

Posted by: Oblomovka daydream | Jun 23 2022 9:33 utc | 111

"Ukraine has no historical justification as it has only existed as a nation since 1923"

Kaliningrad has only been Russian territory since 1945.

Posted by: Noam A. Larkey | Jun 23 2022 7:57 utc | 100

Well, my cynical self just whispered that, coming to think of it, Kaliningrad a.k.a. Königsberg might be given back to Germany anyway. Unless some Old Prussian tribesmen happen by ...

Posted by: CM of Berlin | Jun 23 2022 9:34 utc | 112

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jun 23 2022 8:58 utc | 109
--------------------------------

Lately, I am searching videos from the people who live in Kharkov, Odessa, Melitopol, Kherson, Mariupol etc in Russian, in Ukrainian, instead of ramblers like Lira, Martyanov or even Ritter, to get the feeling of real people in real situations. I even listen to Arestowich sometimes, even though I can't stand the guy.

When I see what's happening in Donetsk and other places, I sometimes wish that America should feel it on their own soil one day. 9/11 appears to be not enough, and the US had not learned a lesson.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 9:44 utc | 113

@ostro 112

9/11 was totally different but in a strange way quite similar. An act by (parts) of the own government against its own people - just like Azov against the people in Donbas.

Posted by: Goingo | Jun 23 2022 10:13 utc | 114

Posted by: Goingo | Jun 23 2022 10:13 utc | 113
--------------------------------------------------

Until something much more than 9/11 happens in the US, the Americans won't learn a lesson. Or, a repetition of the Great Depression...most probably it is coming...with Biden's PutinInfaltion...

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 10:30 utc | 115

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 10:30 utc | 114
-------
Count me in on that. And even then I doubt that the majority is evean able to comprehend.

Posted by: Goingo | Jun 23 2022 10:34 utc | 116

Goingo @ 113
Funny. I thought the Azov fighters were mostly foreign neo-nazis?
And people of Donbass really russians?

Of course, we have seen all the numerous foreign fighters, NATO generals & presidents captured there. About 5, common soldiers, if I understand correctly?

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 23 2022 10:45 utc | 117

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 10:53 utc | 118

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 10:54 utc | 119

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 23 2022 10:45 utc | 116
--------

May I suppose you believe in rag tag-boxcutter-terrorists rather than an inside-job? Or did I miss something?

Kiev says Donbas belongs to Ukraine. Nevertheless they shell their own kin for years?

Posted by: Goingo | Jun 23 2022 10:54 utc | 120

The Great Depression alike is slowly starting for the EU/the unfriendly countries in Europe. When Gazprom mentioned the non-return of Siemens machines from Canada due to their own sanctions, it outlines of that started to show. Siemens is a very old supplier of Gazprom, and should not get caught with such matter. Anyway, this is a pretext to cut down the gas supply to the unfriendlies -- less gas to be stored for the winter, or even no gas for the winter.

Lot of fools are running the EU countries.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 10:58 utc | 121

“As for the red lines, let me keep them to myself, because this will mean quite tough actions on the decision-making centers. But this is an area that shouldn’t be disclosed to people outside the military-political leadership of the country. Those who deserve appropriate actions on our part should draw a conclusion for themselves – what they may face if they cross the line.”

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 11:00 utc | 122

“Well, of course, Gazprom was forced to reduce the volume of gas supplies to Europe by 20%+. But you know, prices have increased not by 20%+, but by several times! Therefore, I’m sorry if I say that we don’t feel offended by anyone, we are not particularly concerned by this situation.” - Alexey Miller

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 11:03 utc | 123

“Well, of course, Gazprom was forced to reduce the volume of gas supplies to Europe by 20%+. But you know, prices have increased not by 20%+, but by several times! Therefore, I’m sorry if I say that we don’t feel offended by anyone, we are not particularly concerned by this situation.” - Alexey Miller

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 11:03 utc | 124

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 11:06 utc | 125

Is this funny or what?

In the event of an attack on the Baltic States, NATO allies promise to "liberate Estonia in 180 days", instead of defending it from the first day, Prime Minister Kallas said. "This would mean the complete destruction of our country," NATO soldiers in Estonia do not like that "according to the plan they will simply die." Kallas said.

What that puppet PM actually wanted to say is that nato soldiers won't die, won't be hit by Russia as long as they don't fight back. They'll stay in their bases and watch. They may intercept one-two missiles, to seem to care a bit, but that all. Because Russia won't attack first (it'll be something Lithuania style, where a blockade is an act of war which gives Russia full options) and because of that it excludes nato from any Article 5 talks :)))

Posted by: rk | Jun 23 2022 11:23 utc | 126

Yes, rk, it is funny, considering the special military operation in Ukraine has barely lasted 4 months. The Estonian PM is talking about a visit paid by less than friendly Russian forces with a duration of about 6 months before being chased away by a valiant NATO.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 23 2022 11:31 utc | 127

Goingo @ 119
You did indeed miss something. Namely me saying anything about 9/11.

But the Azov steel plant foreigners seem mostly to have been propaganda. Just as the Azot foreigners will undoubtedly turn out to be. I'm willing to be proven wrong. Mind you proven, not mere rumours.

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 23 2022 11:37 utc | 128

Thanks for enlighting me.
Well - Azov little foreigners as far as we now by now. Azot? We´ll see what they will tell us.

Posted by: Goingo | Jun 23 2022 11:40 utc | 129

Oh as for Ukraine shelling Donbass, they consider it their territory, occupuied by an invader. Of course they try to force the invaders out.

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 23 2022 11:43 utc | 130

This will probably surprise all of you to hear that Russia is losing and has lost.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/3533384-former-defense-secretary-says-china-could-bring-taiwan-to-its-knees-without-invading/

And Drudge says Russian losses are unsustainable. And Nikkei Asia says they are defeated strategically.

Maybe this is a New Age thing - in which dreams unfold if You Just Believe. Much cheaper than actual war.

Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 23 2022 11:53 utc | 131

Joe6pack @128

Then why were they shelling Donbass for eight years before the invasion even started?

Posted by: aquileia | Jun 23 2022 11:57 utc | 132

ostri@112...so, what are they saying, how does it differ from the 'ramblers' lol, if you can read what they say, so can anyone else, that's how GL keeps up, auto translate and all. So you teased us, you have the 'goods' from the field, yet bring no harvest other than 'gee, US should suffer this too' differs from the 'ramblers'. How?

Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jun 23 2022 12:10 utc | 133

Noam A Larkey, perhaps we should now discuss Israel, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Reincarnated Poland and Germany and perhaps also Zambia and Kosovo and determine if ever Ukraine defined its borders by treaty and registered them with UN

As for Kaliningrad it was never a country. It was the seat of Prussia but Prussia was abolished by the Allies 1945 and the German Reich ceased to exist de facto and de iure which is how Ike denied Geneva Convention protections to German POWs

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 23 2022 12:13 utc | 134

The battalions of the "🅾️tvazhnye" group captured an important stronghold on the southern outskirts of Lisichansk near the village of Belaya Gora.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 12:14 utc | 135

Posted by: aquileia | Jun 23 2022 11:57 utc | 130

That´s exactly the point. Those Donbassians lived there before they were subdued and tried to secede.

Posted by: Goingo | Jun 23 2022 12:14 utc | 136

Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 23 2022 11:53 utc | 129
------------------------------------------------------

They must've taken the same 'powder' as Ze...😋

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 12:30 utc | 137

...But the Azov steel plant foreigners seem mostly to have been propaganda. Just as the Azot foreigners will undoubtedly turn out to be. I'm willing to be proven wrong. Mind you proven, not mere rumours.

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 23 2022 11:37 utc | 126

Don’t you think is demonstrates a lack of intelligence, or perhaps even of character, on your part, to hang your argument on proof you know doesn’t currently exist and which, furthermore, would apply to a situation when the holding of high ranking POWs incommunicado for a potentially quiet trade is completely plausible?

Rumoured to be in Azovstal were Lieutenant General Roger L. Cloutier Jr, (retired!) lieutenant-general Trevor Cadieu and (retired) admiral Eric T. Olson.

As far as I’m aware, not one of them was satisfactorily accounted for during the Azovstal siege or in the following few weeks. Nothing was offered beyond text or undateable photos. The west’s media response was deficient in precisely those ways that would be expected if those mentioned were in fact trapped in Azovstal.

Roger Cloutier has definitely turned up in the US at an ROTC commissioning ceremony, 4th June 2022, San Diego, aboard the USS Midway. There’s YouTube video of him, someone else spotted it and posted a link (sorry, I don’t remember who).

As far as I know, the other two, Cadieu and Olson, are not accounted for at all, beyond press releases that could be from the desk of anyone.

If they weren’t in Azovstal it would have been simplicity itself to wheel them out at a press conference and then have a good old laugh at interwebs conspiracists chasing their own tails. Nothing of the sort happened.

Their furtive behaviour and laughable counterclaims are entirely consistent with them being captured, held by RF and then, Cloutier at least, quietly traded back in some deal or other.

It’ll be interesting to see if, in the fullness of time, all three of them are eased gently back into society and whether, on close inspection, they appear to have just a few too many miles on the clock =)

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 23 2022 12:35 utc | 138

Oh as for Ukraine shelling Donbass, they consider it their territory, occupuied by an invader. Of course they try to force the invaders out.

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 23 2022 11:43 utc | 128

By shelling their own people who are occupied?

Unless they consider the people living there the occupiers, and illegal aliens. Which they do. They never called the population Ukrainians. They always called them Russians. They did that knowing fully well that people like you would not realize that these people may be ethnic Russians but Ukrainian citizens. But maybe you realize that, and you just don't care.

The Kiev regime are not only trying to drive invaders out. They try to drive out parts of their own population - or kill them if they don't leave. That is what they've been trying to do for 8 years.

Posted by: Martina | Jun 23 2022 12:36 utc | 139

aquileia @ 130
Invasion started 2014. You may have read about the invasion of Crimea? Same time.

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 23 2022 12:37 utc | 140

@133 ostro
Good news.

Also: Volcheyarovka being attacked (some reports say taken), which is a point of pretty much direct control over the last road, Seversk-Lisichansk road. -- https://nitter.net/i/status/1539831632504537091

Also: LPR reports Lisichansk area is cut off -- https://t.me/boris_rozhin/54731

Also: RF MoD reports extensive strikes, destruction of an unprecedented number of UA MLRS systems including foreign ones - https://t.me/Slavyangrad/1993

Also: In a more weakly sourced report two French Caesar units (long range 155mm gun on a truck-chassis), were reported captured, guns undamaged, taken to Russia. Arms factory trolling, thanks President Macron for the gift, even though it's not quite their own MSTA-S -- https://t.me/uvznews/2110

Posted by: ptb | Jun 23 2022 12:39 utc | 141

Ghost of Mozgovoy | Jun 22 2022 18:53 utc | 29

46 biolabs- confirmed by Pentagon.

Posted by: cirsium | Jun 23 2022 12:42 utc | 142

anon2020 @ 136

"Don’t you think is demonstrates a lack of intelligence, or perhaps even of character, on your part, to hang your argument on proof you know doesn’t currently exist and which, furthermore, would apply to a situation when the holding of high ranking POWs incommunicado for a potentially quiet trade is completely plausible?"

Uh, no. I hang my argument on the fact that no proof exists.
I also don't see a a trade at all plausible. What could NATO, or whoever, potentially offer? Dollars, weapons?

Major armies don't do things to laugh at commenters on the internet. They don't need to. Whereas Donbass republic showing captured western officers would have been a big media event, and undeniable possibility to sway western opinion.

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 23 2022 12:48 utc | 143

Farewell songs of the political pygmies of Pindostan

I will speak on a topic on which it was usually not customary to speak. We are talking about foreign colleagues. Today, however, it has become quite acceptable. They do it for us and for them. The reasons are clear.

I have been communicating with foreign leaders for a long time and I see how much the level of Western politicians has fallen. This has been happening right before my eyes for the last twenty years. It is obvious that in Europe there is not even a trace of political figures of the level of Helmut Kohl, Jacques Chirac or Margaret Thatcher. This is, of course, not about those who are sometimes called pro-Russian figures, although strong politicians have never been Russophobes. The question is completely different. The political layer of people who personified a powerful political course, and sometimes an entire era, was replaced by a stunted-growth of people who conditionally call themselves technocrats. Some of them are quite qualified specialists, but nothing more. And therein lies the problem! Such people are able to correctly formulate an idea, give precise instructions to assistants. But they are unable to take responsibility. They will hide, play up, refer to instructions, to market conditions, even to climate change, but they will not make a decision. Or they will be accepted with a catastrophic delay. And this is a complete disaster.

A real politician is not afraid to make decisions. Yes, he can make mistakes and even lose. But it will be a worthy loss. Each leader is unique, but a politician is someone who is able to make an unpopular decision and be responsible for it. And who understands that international relations is not the office of a provincial director of a European school, where students are given slaps and sanctions.

No offense to anyone, but it is clear to everyone that Mario Draghi is not Silvio Berlusconi, and Olaf Scholz is not Angela Merkel. These are new people and a new, in my opinion, far from the best era of public administration. In the EU, for example, there are moderate technocrats, and there are rabid fanatics. They are almost equal. Big countries, of course, go solo. In general, Germany, France and Italy look good against the general background. But their respect has been undermined. Could the Ambassador of Ukraine call Chancellor Kohl "an offended liverwurst"? Or will the current president of Ukraine show up for a meeting with President Chirac in a green T-shirt? Of course not. Absurd. I'm not talking about various political outcasts. About patented Russophobes spitting out streams of anti-Russian abominations, such as various Kaczynski and Morawiecki types, about unknown insignificant retirees who are trying to offer their miserable recipes for the world order, such as Heusgens and Vershbow. Their name is legion.

The problem of the degeneration of European politics is primarily due to the fact that it has become pale, a backing vocal for American soloists. Charles de Gaulle could object to any American president. And now which of the Europeans will do it without shaking? They don't think about the future. They are limited only by their flabby electoral tasks. American leaders of the new wave also do not shine with fresh ideas and mental stability. And so it will continue. Alas, enlightenment is not expected yet. This creates problems not only for the Western world, but also for us, Russia. The calibre of politicians is steadily declining. As Vladimir Putin once aptly noted, "after the death of Mahatma Gandhi, there is no one to talk to."

-Dmitry Medvedev

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 12:55 utc | 144

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 23 2022 11:43 utc | 128

No man the shelling of Donbass began in 2014..your arguments lack of truth..What you call "invasion" (a special military operation)has nothing to do with it sorry..You should admit that the ukronazis like to kill russian-speaking civilians on daily bases.

Posted by: LuBa | Jun 23 2022 13:02 utc | 145

Looks like Ukraine had done a good job...The blow inflicted by the Ukrainian army on three drilling platforms of Chornomorneftegaz led to a major oil spill in the Black Sea. The area of the oil slick is about 9 square kilometers and it is drifting towards the coast of Romania.😋

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 13:18 utc | 146

The Ambassador of the Lugansk People's Republic to the Russian Federation reports that as a result of the blockade of the settlements of Gorskoye and Zolote, the militants of the Armed Forces of Ukraine who find themselves in the "cauldron" "give signals that they are ready to surrender."

According to estimates, there are about 2-2.5 thousand personnel in the environment. These are units of the 24th, 57th mechanized brigades and other formations of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, as well as armed formations of nationalists.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 13:25 utc | 147

I also don't see a a trade at all plausible. What could NATO, or whoever, potentially offer? Dollars, weapons? [snip]

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 23 2022 12:48 utc | 141

I'd suggest LDPR/Russian POWs, except that your dear boys seem to prefer torturing and executing them.

Posted by: malenkov | Jun 23 2022 13:29 utc | 148

@ 142 -Dmitry Medvedev

"The calibre of politicians is steadily declining."
So we need more democracy and less politicians who have no wisdom. That could be done by more polling, and referendums on national courses.
"No man is wise enough to be another man's master. Each man's as good as the next -- if not a damn sight better.". . .Edward Abbey

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2022 13:32 utc | 149

aquileia @ 130
Invasion started 2014. You may have read about the invasion of Crimea? Same time.

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 23 2022 12:37 utc | 138

UkraIIIIIIIna could have reintegrated Donbass at any point during these 8 years, observing the following provisions:

-Not outlawing their native language
-Allowing them political representation in the rada.

Which is, you know, the normal approach in europe to these matters.

Regarding Crimea, the russian naval base was never going to be ceded into Gringo hands. If annexation (not invasion) is what it took to prevent that, oh well.

And btw, Crimea was signed off to UkraIIIIIIna by Khrushchev for shits and giggles.

Ukronazis and their NATO handlers grabbing that naval base without firing a shot was simply a pipe dream, or more appropriately coke-fueled delusions of grandeur.

Posted by: Arganthonios | Jun 23 2022 13:41 utc | 150


Well the sanctity of European borders has gone right out the window, hasn't it? I see all sorts of ambitions to restore lost territories now, old grievances suddenly new. Things are changing fast now.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 23 2022 13:55 utc | 151

@ Bemildred | Jun 23 2022 13:55 utc | 149

. . . and it all started when we set up Camp Bondsteel, ermm, "liberated Kosovo." Yay us.

Posted by: malenkov | Jun 23 2022 14:04 utc | 152

Posted by: malenkov | Jun 23 2022 14:04 utc | 150

"Gee, who could have predicted that?"

How much damage have these greedy and ambitious cretins done in the world?

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 23 2022 14:06 utc | 153

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 23 2022 13:55 utc | 149

Nothing is permanent...

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 14:10 utc | 154

The General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine confirmed the loss of Ray-Aleksandrovka and the closure of the boiler in the Gorskoye-Zolotoye area.

According to estimates, there are about 2-2.5 thousand personnel in the environment. These are units of the 24th, 57th mechanized brigades and other formations of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, as well as armed formations of nationalists.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 14:13 utc | 155

Nothing is permanent...

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 14:10 utc | 152

Indeed. A lesson we all need to learn. In the end you have to give everything back. ;-)

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 23 2022 14:15 utc | 156

RE: Lieutenant-general Trevor Cadieu

Cadieu was alleged to have engaged in the sexual assault of a subordinate. This allegation came to light when Cadieu was to have been promoted to head Land Forces Command, the head of the Canadian Army.

Cadieu then retired and left Canada for Ukraine. He was reported to have been captured in the Avosthal cauldron.

He was recently charged with two counts of criminal assault and has responded to press enquiries from Ukraine stating he is returning to Canada to defend himself against all charges.

SOURCE:
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/retired-lt-gen-trevor-cadieu-charged-with-two-counts-of-sexual-assault

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 23 2022 14:23 utc | 157

My preceeding post was a response to Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 23 2022 12:35 utc | 136

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 23 2022 14:24 utc | 158

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2022 13:32 utc | 147
"No man is wise enough to be another man's master. Each man's as good as the next -- if not a damn sight better.". . .Edward Abbey

I agree with Abbey. Why not return to the Greek system wherein the "ruling elite" was picked by lottery. In each district there would be held a lottery and if you were selected then you were off to Washington, Ottawa, or London to legislate for a designated term of office.

This process would destroy the party system (defang established cabals) result in constant turnover (again defang the established cabals), eliminate the need for massive fund raising (thereby advancing the interests of those who donate millions).

This is similar to process for selecting jurors who hold the power to condemn others to death. If a random group may be entrusted with that decision why not all affairs of state? Outcomes could not be worse than they are at present.

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 23 2022 14:36 utc | 159

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 23 2022 14:36 utc | 159

It's not a bad idea, but a reminder is needed that the Athenian system was always aristocratic, slowly eroded over time, but never stopped being so.

Also, Athenians engaged in exactly the same sort of imperialist bullshit the US of A does, except in a smaller scale according to the technology available at the time.

Posted by: Arganthonios | Jun 23 2022 14:44 utc | 160

malenkov @ 148
'My boys' catch mice :)
I don't think nato has any ukrainian POWs.
So no, not a possible scenario in my mind.

Arganthonios @ 150

"And btw, Crimea was signed off to UkraIIIIIIna by Khrushchev for shits and giggles."

Sure. So we agree that
Soviet leaders were 'agreement incapable'?
As well as current RF regime? For breaking the Budapest memorandum.
I think we are getting somewhere :)

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 23 2022 14:55 utc | 161

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 23 2022 14:55 utc | 161

No, it means that Crimea was Ukrainian virtually on paper only, and it also means that I don't give a shit about Ukraine's territorial integrity, given that it's been intentionally infested with Nazis for NATO encirclement shenanigans.

Posted by: Arganthonios | Jun 23 2022 15:00 utc | 162

Arganthonios @ 162
"virtually on paper only" and "I don't give a shit about Ukraine's territorial integrity"

Yep, agreement incapable seems a good description of your attitude.
However, what some random commenters on interwebs, you or I, think, is beside the point.
Russian regime has demonstrated that it is agreement incapable.

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 23 2022 15:22 utc | 163

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 23 2022 14:36 utc | 159

Posted by: Arganthonios | Jun 23 2022 14:44 utc | 160

The Doge of Venice it a better model. It was a "democracy" of elites that lasted for 1000 years. The former mercantile aristocracy of Rome settled there because the Barbarians did not have a navy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge_of_Venice

The Doge of Davos has a better alliteration though, agreed? ;-)

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Jun 23 2022 15:29 utc | 164

@ Joe6pack #161

I don't think NATO has any ukrainian POWs.

More agreements here.
(1) NATO conducts the war in UA and takes POWs.
(2) No Ukrainians? That either corroberates the execution claim made in #148 and/or the recognition of LPDR as independent states.

Posted by: OttoE | Jun 23 2022 15:44 utc | 165

RE: Lieutenant-general Trevor Cadieu
...
Posted by: Sushi | Jun 23 2022 14:23 utc | 157

Thanks for that, interesting that even the official version of events still places him in Ukraine.

Never anything convincing, though, always something easily forged, except for the zero-fanfare return of Cloutier. Almost as though there was never any question of his whereabouts ..... almost.

I think it complete uncontroversial to say that the most likely explanation for the observable behaviour and events is that many of those rumoured to have been caught in the Azovstal rat trap were indeed so trapped.

That RF was / is holding high ranking POWs incommunicado to keep open the possibility of trading them for something worthwhile and that their low key return signals that just such a deal had been struck, otherwise we’ll eventually see some high ranking POWs in front of the LDPR war crimes tribunal.

It is rumoured that first Minsk accords were supported by the “west” in exchange for the quiet return of their special forces snuff-hustles captured at the centre of jihadi “human shield” formations that were encircled by Syrian troops.

For the return of Azovstal assclowns, my favourite trade idea is that the US DoD is quietly tipping off RF to juicy “allied” weapon shipments.

It’s info the DoD already has, its valuable enough that RF would likely accept the trade, and who’d ever guess?

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 23 2022 15:51 utc | 166

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 23 2022 15:51 utc | 166

It’s info the DoD already has, its valuable enough that RF would likely accept the trade, and who’d ever guess?

You mean, besides anon2020? 8^)

Posted by: David Levin | Jun 23 2022 17:54 utc | 167

The EU, that is the unfriendlies had decided to grant Ukraine and Moldova as candidate countries to the EU, which now automatically means that the EU is a candidate for the SMO in the EU...😋

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 18:50 utc | 168

Anyone who thinks the Athenian system was aristocratic needs to read authors like Plato and Pseudo-Xenophon (aka the O!d Oligarch) to see how much Athenian aristocrats hated the system.

Posted by: Lysias | Jun 23 2022 18:51 utc | 169

The EU, that is the unfriendlies had decided to grant Ukraine and Moldova as candidate countries to the EU, which now automatically means that the EU is a candidate for the SMO in the EU...😋

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 18:50 utc | 168

It might not be such a bad idea then! :D

Posted by: Arganthonios | Jun 23 2022 18:52 utc | 170

.... You mean, besides anon2020? 8^)

Posted by: David Levin | Jun 23 2022 17:54 utc | 167

Yeah, sure, me too, but I meant amongst the “allies” who might never wonder at the belated resurfacing of these mooted NATO captives and RF’s very impressive targeting of UA weapon flows.

Though there’s every reason to suspect that RF has good human / signal collection in UA, and the place is corrupt as shit at the best of time, let alone when every official with any sense will be looking for bag of cash and a fire exit, if you’re looking for a conjectured trade between DoD and RF for the quiet return of high ranking POWs, that’s my suggestion.

It’s valuable to RF and something DoD could do with very little chance of getting caught. Anything else would seem to leave a physical, informational or operational trace on the DoD’s side that might have to be explained later on.

If true, the irony of DoD having to supply targeting info to RF so they can hit Empire of Terrorism proxies, rather than the other way around, would certainly be delicious =)

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 23 2022 18:53 utc | 171

It'll be a different SMO, sort of an economic one. Russia is allowing the EU/US to delete their armament, then either destroy them or capture them, and also hitting at the EU industry. For some EU countries, it is now 20% less natural gas supply, but in July, it'd grow up to 40%-50%, so the unfriendlies cannot fill the tanks for the winter. By October, no gas for the EU, except maybe to Hungary. By that time, maybe the Ukraine won't exist.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2022 18:58 utc | 172

Anyone who thinks the Athenian system was aristocratic needs to read authors like Plato and Pseudo-Xenophon (aka the O!d Oligarch) to see how much Athenian aristocrats hated the system.

Posted by: Lysias | Jun 23 2022 18:51 utc | 169

Whether some aristocrats hated it or not has little to do with political rote usually favoring them.

But I'll look for this aspect you mentioned, I don't want to dismiss it, it's just that it does little to cancel the usual preeminence of old noble families within political structures; requisites for holding office, etc.

I did say and I'll repeat again, that this aristocratic quality was in constant erosion - but present throughout, nevertheless.

Posted by: Arganthonios | Jun 23 2022 19:00 utc | 173

@tucenz 72

We don't need to speculate on the identity of the complete idiots and total philistines. Just think of the galleries and museums across occupied Europe, in Dresden and Tokyo and across German and Japanese cities, as well as across North Korea and Vietnam. Not to mention the deliberate reduction of treasures such as the Monte Cassino Abbey and it's incredible library - deliberately destroyed to no military purpose. And then there was the second of the two Operation Unthinkables, where Moscow, St Petersburg and other Soviet cities were to have been eliminated in an surprise attack using nuclear weapons.

Posted by: Hermit | Jun 23 2022 22:05 utc | 174

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 23 2022 14:36 utc | 159
"Why not return to the Greek system wherein the "ruling elite" was picked by lottery. In each district there would be held a lottery and if you were selected then you were off to Washington, Ottawa, or London to legislate for a designated term of office.

This process would destroy the party system (defang established cabals) result in constant turnover (again defang the established cabals), eliminate the need for massive fund raising (thereby advancing the interests of those who donate millions)."

For a while; unfortunately what results eventually is rule by lobbyists. They are the only individuals who will have been around long enough to understand all the procedures, and all the highly detailed pieces of legislation.

Posted by: AntiSpin | Jun 24 2022 20:45 utc | 175

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