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June 21, 2022
Ukraine Open Thread 2022-91
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Lots of discussion near the end of this thread about Russia’s hands-off approach to Israel’s attacks on targets in Syria. The same question puzzled me for a while.
Clearly a backroom understanding has been reached, most likely that Israel is allowed to strike targets belonging to foreign funded organizations beginning with the letter “H”. It would not surprise me if there was major intelligence sharing going on as well.
So we have a prolonged stalemate where all major players are waiting for some catalyst to tip the board in their favor.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Jun 22 2022 14:29 utc | 201
@ c1ue | Jun 22 2022 14:25 utc | 202
Yes. It’s much easier to get what one wants when one is the thorn in the side of one’s allies than when one is an enemy.
Having control over the Bosporus and the Dardanelles doesn’t hurt either.
Posted by: malenkov | Jun 22 2022 14:31 utc | 202
Thankyou Debbsisdead for pointing out the obvious.
Every couple of days a high Kremlin official threatens nuclear annihilation to a western country. Putin is the only world leader who has openly talked about the elimination of the state of Ukraine. Putin is the only world leader who openly proclaims the Ukrainian people are a fiction, a creature of Soviet Communism. This is how genocide begins. You proclaim your enemy has no right to exist, their existence is artificial and contrary to our Russian rights. Putin has turned this into an existential crises for Russia. Putin, who claims the US is “agreement incapable” will burn the planet down if he does not get his way—He issues a maximalist ultimatum in December. That ultimatum strips sovereignty from Ukraine, Poland, Romania the Baltic Republics Slovakia and the Cezh Republic, and you folks are surprised that the West responded by preparing to attack the Donbas.
A bunch of white dicks addicted to war porn in about right. Don’t worry Putin and Biden both need this war to go on for years–Putin is now saying the earliest his SMO will be completed is 2023–at that point the Russo-Polish war will probably begin. It took Stalins armies millions of dead and 3 years to get to Berlin. Putin (idiot meglomaniac that he is demonstrating himself to be) still hasn’t figured out he needs to send his armies at least that far west
So don’t worry warporn addicts, there will be plenty of death and destruction to get your nuts off on.
Posted by: wobblie | Jun 22 2022 14:33 utc | 203
Re: Debsisdead
Nice rant but pointless, naive and stupid.
Russia has never portrayed itself as the end-all, be-all savior of the world. Putin has always carefully outlined what Russia’s objectives are and what Russia intends to do with regards to the rest of the world.
The same can be said for China.
So you can rant all you want that these nations are acting in their selfish interests, but you cannot blame them for being the non-religious deus-ex-machina that will make the world into the wonderful paradise you believe is possible “if only”.
They didn’t sign up for that even if they could – which is itself not clearly possible.
Nor is this unusual – no nation has EVER acted to be the selfless leveler of humanity, on that path to utopia.
Posted by: c1ue | Jun 22 2022 14:33 utc | 204
@ Opport Knocks | Jun 22 2022 14:29 utc | 204
I’m inclined to agree, except that an attack on the civilian infrastructure of a civilian airport doesn’t seem to fit under the rubric of “Attacks targets belonging to foreign funded organizations beginning with the letter ‘H'”. This is an escalation of kind, not degree.
Posted by: malenkov | Jun 22 2022 14:33 utc | 205
@b
I don’t know if this is deliberate, but I am repeatedly getting this warning:
404 Not Found
Not Found
The requested URL /.services/json-rpc was not found on this server.
Posted by: c1ue | Jun 22 2022 14:34 utc | 206
@ c1ue | Jun 22 2022 14:34 utc | 209
For the past few days I almost always get a gobbledygook error message on my first attempt to preview or post a comment. The second attempt invariably succeeds. Go figure. I suspect a software glitch of some kind.
Posted by: malenkov | Jun 22 2022 14:38 utc | 207
@Opport Knocks #204
“Most people” are stupid.
1) Israel isn’t attacking Tartus. It is attacking Syrian positions and troops.
2) Israel is revealing its capabilities and tactics with every single attack. Thank you sir! <--say the Russians and Iranians
3) Israel's attacks suck for Syria, but they don't pose any form of significant military or economic threat. It is pure theater albeit Syrians are dying.
4) With every attack, the Syrians get the opportunity to get better.
Posted by: c1ue | Jun 22 2022 14:39 utc | 208
The reality that Ukraine war is a Zionist war of territory acquisition is becoming widely recognized. Following the trail of events backwards leads to the astonishing possibility that both the Covid fake pandemic response and the BLM movement and subsequent stolen election were engineered precursor events to enable the Zionist Straussians to regain power. Trump and the MAGA platform of no new wars and negotiations was in their way. They had to get rid of a very popular President. They killed millions in the process. All par for the course for the Zionists though.
Posted by: Bobolinski | Jun 22 2022 14:49 utc | 209
Posted by: malenkov | Jun 22 2022 14:38 utc | 210
I have that too, I’m guessing a botched “update” of something or other.
It seems to go away the second time I click to post/preview.
Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 22 2022 14:50 utc | 210
ostro | Jun 22 2022 9:32 utc | 130
19 U.S. pennies…pardon me if I don’t jump and shout. That “saves” me $2.80 per full tank. 14 U.S. gallon tank costs roughly $90…But billions for the rentier oligharchs. As Yakov Smirnoff put it:
“What A Country!”
Posted by: donten | Jun 22 2022 14:55 utc | 211
The Israeli attacks on Syria do little damage on a national scale. They don’t prevent reconstruction of the country and they don’t hit Russian bases. Putin is willing to live with the attacks for the time being. There are many people on the Internet who wish Putin would show the Israelis who’s boss by leveling one of their air bases or something like that, but I don’t think these people realize that this is what Israel and the Empire have been waiting for because it would give them an excuse to launch a massive attack on the small but annoying Russian military presence in Syria.
Posted by: aquileia | Jun 22 2022 14:55 utc | 212
for you war porn addicts, here are some more war crimes you can get your nuts off on.
https://rsf.org/sites/default/files/medias/file/2022/06/Rapport%20Ukraine%20_UK%20DEF.pdf
Posted by: wobblie | Jun 22 2022 14:59 utc | 213
Posted by: wobblie | Jun 22 2022 14:59 utc | 216
—————————————————
You mean about the demented Joe’s trial…?🤔
Posted by: ostro | Jun 22 2022 15:04 utc | 214
I am passing on the latest information to you.
As promised, we have a lot of good news these days.
I note that, in addition to the successful advance of troops in the direction where my dear BROTHER, Hero of Russia Zamid Chalaev is responsible, we have good results in the direction of Severodonetsk and Lisichansk, from where my dear BROTHER Apty Alaudinov also transmits operational information about the success of our troops and LNR troops.
In the very near future you will hear a message about the capture of Lisichansk in the ring and the cleansing of its territory from the Bandera invaders.
-Ramzan Kadyrov
Posted by: ostro | Jun 22 2022 15:06 utc | 215
The Lisichansk-Severodotsk pocket may form by the end of the week.
Judging by today’s news, in the morning our units approached Ray-Aleksandrovka, and by lunchtime they took it, and also according to the news that the battles for Volcheyarovka had already begun, the front of the Armed Forces of Ukraine collapsed here.
If by evening or tomorrow (after all, the village is large) Volcheyarovka will be ours, then the cauldron around Lisichansk will be formed by the end of the week.
-Yuri Podolayaka
Posted by: ostro | Jun 22 2022 15:08 utc | 216
@ debs…. shitting on the community and providing an overdose of cynicism…. also mis characterizing the community… is this what you do for jollies?
Posted by: james | Jun 22 2022 15:12 utc | 217
Lithuania is afraid of “closing the sky” by Russian air defense.
According to Deutsche Welle, there is growing concern in Lithuanian military and intelligence circles about the blockade of Lithuanian airspace as a possible retaliatory measure caused by the imposition of sanctions against the Kaliningrad region.
It is assumed that it can be organized by “Russian air defense units stationed in Belarus.” There are several C400 divisions capable of “closing the airspace” of Lithuania. Closing the sky over Lithuania will actually destroy the country economically.
Posted by: ostro | Jun 22 2022 15:14 utc | 218
The Zionists need for expansion is so important (sarc) that it was worth creating an explosion of inflation worldwide. You are literally paying for it every time you fill up on gas or go to the grocery store. The cost is so high and as usual they have engineered a way for others to pay for their “ chosen people” delusion. The Ukrainian and Russians are paying with their lives. Russia is not the corrupt AIPAC bribed congress though. Russia has the power and will to stop them dead in their tracks.
Posted by: Bobolinski | Jun 22 2022 15:15 utc | 219
and here is Gonzalo Lira with his latest on why Israel is provoking the Russians. This goes to b’s earlier point about creating another hotspot in Syria. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvjs3a4Vi_o
Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 22 2022 15:17 utc | 220
Posted by: bevin | Jun 22 2022 14:07 utc | 196
Thanks for sharing your perspective in such detail.
Posted by: David Levin | Jun 22 2022 15:23 utc | 221
Hey debsisdead, you earned yourself a groupie! wobblieisdead @206
Isn’t it amazing how middle class liberal empire apologists often try to cover their stink by associating themselves with American working class heroes? It is kinda like the Nazis applying the label “socialist” to themselves.
Oh, Debsisdead isn’t an empire apologist, you say? Try criticizing the CIA’s drug running and trafficking in child prostitutes in front of him. He gets really defensive of the “We lie, we cheat, we steal!” gang when you do that. That’s because he used to party with CIA operators back in his youthful hippy days when he was shouldering the “white man’s burden” and playing savior to the ignorant Pacific island darkies. He was very impressed with the Ivy League pedigrees of those CIA boys and appreciated their generous free-spending ways (child prostitutes fetch a tidy sum from Middle Eastern princes).
Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 22 2022 15:27 utc | 222
Amazing how easily things can be turned around.
“Germans making more “living room” for the blue-eyed, blonde population from Europe while deporting the refugees from the Middle-East/Asia.”
https://twitter.com/DenisRogatyuk/status/1539295539719655424
US handy-work is being met with increased resistance in Latin America. Ecuador,
https://twitter.com/DenisRogatyuk/status/1539390923179630592
Posted by: Tom_12 | Jun 22 2022 15:32 utc | 223
Wobblie gets a preview on how it is to live on the other side of power, hate and arrogance – something our Western conutries have been practicing on the Russians, non-western whites and other non-whites for many years.
Now it is suddenly very brute and violent what they do. What you get when the bully is pushed back.
Posted by: alek_a | Jun 22 2022 15:36 utc | 224
Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 22 2022 13:49 utc | 188
I agree 100%! There’s no real value in western Ukraine for the Russians other than to make it a “dead zone”- free of NATO and Nazis. As you state, Russia likely hopes that the Ukies will police themselves of such, otherwise the Russians will step in and do so (and when done, leave).
Posted by: Seer | Jun 22 2022 15:43 utc | 225
More and more Germans are going to hear this message on TV as we get closer to Winter,
https://t.me/rocknrollgeopolitics/3893
Posted by: Tom_12 | Jun 22 2022 15:43 utc | 226
“Russian troops are not going to be doing that part. That will be the Ukrainian police, perhaps with a little Russian supervision, but no Russian occupation.”
William Gruff (188).
William interesting option, but what makes you think the Ukrainian security services and police will play ball, do they actively want to hunt those who are Neo-Nazi’s or Neo-Nazi sympathisers, is there the goodwill towards Russia within Kiev that we’ve seen in other regions of Ukraine, and if not is Putin willing to, as I said in my previous comment expend vast amounts of manpower, time and energy to hunt down these people, who lets face it can blend into a civilian population of three million plus.
Don’t get me wrong Putin’s SMO has been in my opinion remarkably successful in hunting down Neo-Nazi mindset Ukrainian troops, transferring that success to hunt down Neo-Nazi’s and their sympathisers within a three million civilian population, and possibly one that’s hostile in the most part is another matter.
Nevertheless yours is an interesting take on how to handle Neo-Nazi’s and their sympathisers in Kiev, I for one think Putin has already made his point and Nato and the EU know this.
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jun 22 2022 15:45 utc | 227
@ ostro | Jun 22 2022 15:14 utc | 221
Warm thanks for keeping us up-to-date on the Kaliningrad flashpoint.
Somebody here predicted Russia’s response will be nothing — I find zero chance of that. At any rate, the significance of Lithuania’s blockade is what it portends: NATO will keep poking the bear until it gets a satisfying (or maybe not-so-satisfying) escalatory response — at which point everything will become Russia’s fault, due to innate, insatiable expansionism, according to the agitprop machine.
Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 22 2022 16:09 utc | 228
from rt –
““We want to respect the sanctions because the sanctions were put into place for a reason. That being said, the intent of the sanctions was never to cause significant pain to Germany, which is one of our closest friends and allies. So, we are very seized with this issue,” Wilkinson told the news outlet.
“We are talking to Germany, trying to find a pathway through which we can actually enable the flow of gas. There may be different options that we can look at,” he stated, adding that Ottawa is negotiating with Berlin on ways to return the equipment.”
so nice of canada to be a good little soldier for the usa…. apparently we have never heard of international law and only abide by what the usa tells us under fear of thread and bullying of course… you know.. mouse living next door to the elephant and etc. etc..
Posted by: james | Jun 22 2022 16:10 utc | 229
Republicofscotland @230: “…what makes you think the Ukrainian security services and police will play ball…”
Because that will be their job.
Any negotiated peace will require a rewrite of the Ukrainian constitution to include at its most fundamental levels prohibitions against Nazism, promotion of Nazism, glorification of Nazism, denial of Nazi crimes in schools, mass media, and in public spaces. In exactly the way that the US coup of 2014 in Kiev installed Nazis in leadership positions of all law enforcement departments and agencies in the Ukraine, replacing those Nazis with aggressive anti-Nazis will be a requirement for peace. That will simply be a condition for the Russians to stop doing the denazification job themselves.
You really think that is too much to ask? You really think the Ukrainian population is willing to protect the Nazis to the end with their own lives and livelihoods? You think the Ukrainian people really love their Nazis so much they would rather see their entire country reduced to smoldering ruins rather than see it with no Nazis? I do not think that is very realistic. When the myth that the Ukraine is winning is dispelled and it is clear that the Ukrainian military is going to lose no matter what then the Ukrainian people will demand an end to the conflict, even if that means outlawing Nazis.
I really doubt the average Ukrainian loves the Nazis as much you seem to think they do. The Nazi government in Kiev wouldn’t have to be arresting people at roadblocks for forced conscription if the people there were eager to put their lives on the line to prevent denazification. They would have plenty of volunteers.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 22 2022 16:16 utc | 230
Doug Hillman @184–
I’ve explained the very complex relationship Russia has with Occupied Palestine (OP) a half-dozen times. The first aspect is Russia wants to avoid the situation escalating into full-scale war between OP and the Arc of Resistance (AR) which would be disastrous for not just the region but for the entire world. As a Permanent UNSC member, Russia sees its responsibility to prevent such a conflict. That’s point #1. #2 is the vast number of Russians living in OP and Russia’s policy/law toward those being ex-pats–they are to be defended as best as possible. Do you see the Catch-22? #3, Russia has stated many times that the #1 key to gaining a lasting peace in the Persian Gulf region which includes OP is a just settlement for Palestinians–a position agreed to by all except the Zionists. The Collective Security proposal proposed by both Russia and Iran has gathered momentum over the past 18 months as the Arab states mend their relations with the AR, not just with Iran. Yes, it’s a very complex and delicate undertaking, but it’s making progress. #4, Russia has restrained Syria from directly attacking the illegal Outlaw US Empire forces occupying Syria because that could possibly spark #1. The logic to that policy may chaff Assad, but he’s agreed to it so far. And #5, the Turks are part of the problem and solution, not regarding OP but the Syrian issue and presence of Outlaw US Empire forces in both Iraq and Syria. The proposal a Turk writer made that was picked up by RT and posted here by me IMO is very significant, yet also a wait-and-see as the one reply it got noted.
One huge problem here and elsewhere in analyzing the OP issue is knee-jerk responses caused by numerous reasons. Yes, the Zionists are effectively Nazis when it comes to their genocide waged against the Palestinians, and OP has zero democracy despite the incessant propaganda we’re fed. It’s clearly a colonial creation that ought not to exist but unfortunately does, and it’s performing as designed by its Outlaw Sponsors. Demographically, OP cannot continue much longer as corruption eats away at what remains of its real economy. By no means can OP be called a miracle in the desert any longer. People are emigrating and those remaining aren’t having children–except for Palestinians who very much understand their demographic power.
TPaine @ 125
> Not ‘universal’ in your world, Albert, since it seems to justify the behaviour of US and its allies but no-one else. If the US stopped ‘protecting minorities’ the world would be a much safer, more peaceful place. Its track record is pretty dire, isn’t it?
Switching topics are we? Look no further than Grozny to see that Russia doens’t give a shit about minorities and human rights. It’s all pretense, as it is with the US (you do seem to have understood that part).
Posted by: Albert | Jun 22 2022 16:25 utc | 232
@ William Gruff | Jun 22 2022 16:16 utc | 233
william.. bevin left a link that is worth taking a look at… how does one get rid of these ideologues? Dmytro Dontsov
it is pretty ingrained and a serious part of the indoctrination process within ukraine as i understand it..
The ideology of the banderists
Posted by: james | Jun 22 2022 16:28 utc | 233
Concerning Albert’s post of Russian ” massacreing”. Hey Albert there is no Russian massacreing none absolutely nothing .
nada. This ICC is nothing but a globalist witch hunt concocting false charges much like January 6.
Posted by: Lou Cypher | Jun 22 2022 16:28 utc | 234
@ Republicofscotland | Jun 21 2022 19:41 utc | 29
“No I think the liberation of the Donbas along with several other regions which are quite happy to use Russian currency and hold Russian passports will be the extent of the SMO”
Exactly what I have been saying right from the start, glad I’m not the only one that gets it.
Posted by: MarkU | Jun 22 2022 16:28 utc | 235
@ Albert | Jun 22 2022 16:25 utc | 235
clearly you’re a master at pretense… words from the master, lol…
Posted by: james | Jun 22 2022 16:30 utc | 236
@234 Cont’d–
There’s a marked difference to Russian policy versus USSR policy toward OP and the region during the Cold War. At the time there was no law dealing with the protection of ex-pats, and many within USSR’s leadership viewed Russian Jews as unpatriotic Russians undeserving Motherland love. That ought to help to somewhat explain the change in policy post-1991.
Flying RAF military missions off the coast of Israel or parking a Russian carrier into the region might be a good way to send the message that the war must end soon. An “ accident” could happen where a small tactical missile or drone goes off course and lands right onto Ave. Rothschild in Tel Aviv.
Posted by: Bobolinski | Jun 22 2022 16:33 utc | 238
Albert @235: “Look no further than Grozny…”
Bad example, Al. The Chechen people are very grateful for the Russian sacrifices to help get rid of the CIA’s head chopping terrorists.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 22 2022 16:35 utc | 239
wobblie @ 206
> It took Stalins armies millions of dead and 3 years to get to Berlin. Putin (idiot meglomaniac that he is demonstrating himself to be) still hasn’t figured out he needs to send his armies at least that far west
Putin already figured out that sending political opponents to Siberian Gulags is an efficiant way of state repression. His censorship laws on “discrediting the Russian armed forces” border totaliarism – disagree with the government line and be sent to jail.
Posted by: moa78 | Jun 22 2022 16:36 utc | 240
Posted by: RTD | Jun 21 2022 19:28 utc | 27
“The AP also told us Iraq had WMD. They even showed Colin Powell holding a vial of yellowcake.”
I think you mean a vial of Anthrax actually.
Posted by: MarkU | Jun 22 2022 16:38 utc | 241
Bobolinski @ 241
Yes, finally you are talking sense! Russian carrier, that is Admiral Kuznezov, will surely have the entire eastern Mediterranean on their knees.
Laughing 🙂
Also, an accident is SURE to happen, where ever that magnificent example of russian naval skill is located.
Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 22 2022 16:51 utc | 242
@ wobblie 206; What you and other ukrop/ NATO fanboys fail to understand is that even when the regime, the current borders or even the nation of Ukraine cease to exist, it does not mean the same for the inhabitants or the culture. So no genocide…!
Apart for the radicalized and deluded fraction who wants to suicide themselves in a blaze of stand and fight glory, you’re welcome of course. But that is their own deluded choice. Not heroic, but rather cultish…
So think ahead and don’t fight a lost battle for false promises of your puppet dear leader or fake promises of NATO and EU officials…
Posted by: Rootman | Jun 22 2022 16:55 utc | 243
@233 gruff
I agree. The wannabe nationalists, the spiritualist indo-European Satanists that many here simply refer to as Nazis, are probably not the majority of those fighting in the Borderlands.
They may have a remnant psychotraumatic affliction from living under Soviet Russia and where also the west has been able to infiltrate their minds for generations, but it can’t be argued that turning east at this point and aligning with Russia wouldn’t be the better option by far for them.
Unfortunately, this war of attrition will probably be the only thing to pry the mind-altering parasite from the west off of those poor Slavs. Barring a nuclear exchange between NATO and Russia, the poor Ukrainians who are suffering in the middle, as well as of course the brave Russian Serviceman, are the real tragic story here.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jun 22 2022 16:56 utc | 244
William Gruff @ 242
> Bad example, Al. The Chechen people are very grateful for the Russian sacrifices to help get rid of the CIA’s head chopping terrorists.
Haha right, that’s why they wanted to be independent since 1991. Actually since 1785 but the Russian empire kept throwing bombs and soldiers at it.
Posted by: moa78 | Jun 22 2022 16:59 utc | 245
A very brief amount of Lavrov’s interview with the National State Television and Radio Company of the Republic of Belarus was published by the MFA:
“Sergey Lavrov: I am more surprised not by the lies that we hear from Kiev every day, hourly, but by how Kiev’s “patrons” began to play this game of lies.
“They shield him for no reason. And it’s not just now. You mentioned the eight-year period after the unconstitutional coup d’état. This coup was the result of the fact that the opposition simply spat in the face of the European Union, which, represented by France, Germany and Poland, put its guarantees under the agreement between Viktor Yanukovych and three opposition leaders. The next morning, they broke it all up, announced as a priority the need to abolish the regional status of the Russian language, and sent armed bandits to Crimea. That’s how it all started.”
And once again, Konstantin Gavrilov gives the OSCE an ear-full at the talks in Vienna on military security and arms control at the 1015th plenary session of the OSCE Forum for Security Co-operation on what is a very fateful anniversary date for Russians. I’d very much like to post his entire speech, but will limit myself to his introductory paragraphs:
Dear Mr. Chairman,
Today the Russian Federation celebrates the Day of Remembrance and Sorrow. On June 22, 1941, Nazi Germany and its European satellites attacked the USSR without declaring war. The attempt to appease the aggressor on the eve of the Great Patriotic War turned into a mistake that cost our people dearly. The enemy was crushed, but at a colossal price – in the struggle for the liberation of their Fatherland and the whole of Europe from the “brown plague”, 27 million Soviet citizens laid down their heads. We sacredly honor their memory.
We regret to state that history, if deliberately distorted or forgotten, tends to repeat itself. 81 years later, those who claim world domination have openly and unjustifiably declared Russia an enemy. To achieve their own geopolitical goals, they supported rabid nationalists and radicals in Ukraine, descendants of Nazi henchmen Bandera and Shukhevych, who cherished plans for the forcible seizure of the territories of the Russian Federation – Crimea and Sevastopol, and also made plans to force the Donbass to their will through a large-scale military offensive, which was planned for early March. Kiev was not going to fulfill the Minsk agreements. The task was to “buy time” and “build up the army.” Former President of Ukraine Petr Poroshenko openly speaks about this.
The special military operation announced by the President of the Russian Federation on February 24 to protect the people of Donbass, demilitarize and denazify Ukraine (SVO) foiled these criminal plans. It is carried out in full compliance with international law and relies on the broad support of the citizens of our country. Russia will do everything possible to ensure that the punishers from the gangs of Ukrainian nationalists, acting as accomplices of Hitler during the Great Patriotic War, stop the eight-year murder of defenseless people of Donbass under nazi slogans “Russians must die so that we can live.”
It is very difficult for the states of the “civilized” West to get used to the fact that Russia has its own national security interests, and it will consistently defend them. That is why the capitals of NATO member countries have decided to supply Ukraine with advanced weapons capable of striking deep into our territory. This signals their willingness to risk escalation with the Russian Federation, with NATO officials and the Western media already openly engaged in warmongering.
As recently as last week, an unnamed State Department official told The Washington Post that U.S. authorities had discussed the possibility of a protracted conflict fraught with global consequences even before the start of the Russian SVO. This logic fits the call of NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg to prepare for the fact that hostilities in Ukraine may last several years. The veil of plans for the so-called defensive NATO was also lifted by the new Chief of the General Staff of the British Ground Forces, General Patrick Sanders (I quote): “Now there is an urgent need to create an army that will be able to fight alongside our allies and defeat Russia in battle. We are the generation that must prepare the army to fight again in Europe” (end of quote). His colleague, German Air Force Commander Ingo Gerhartz, recommended that NATO “prepare in advance for the use of nuclear weapons, since an emergency situation could arise at any time.” Finally, Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte called the situation in Ukraine “our war.” It is now clear who is directly responsible for prolonging armed violence in Ukraine and fomenting confrontation on the European continent. We call on them to come to their senses and refrain from rhetoric or actions that could deal a blow to the Charter of the United Nations.
I don’t know about Russian language media, but such content’s not being published by Russia’s English language media, which IMO is a huge error. And it being Wednesday, it’s Maria Zakharova’s weekly MFA briefing, which contains gems as usual. And there’s much more happening.
William Gruff @ 242
Dzohar Dudayev, decorated general of the red army, a CIA head chopper?
There’s lot of bu***hit here, but it’s been a while since I read something so ridiculous.
Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 22 2022 17:11 utc | 247
“Any negotiated peace will require a rewrite of the Ukrainian constitution to include at its most fundamental levels prohibitions against Nazism, promotion of Nazism, glorification of Nazism, denial of Nazi crimes in schools, mass media, and in public spaces. ”
William Gruff (223).
William what makes you think that there will be negotiated peace, it my well be that what is under Russian forces control right now, will be the future of the border with the rest of Ukraine, which may consist of Russian supported regions and republics to the East. Even without Nato/EU backing, does it sound like Zelensky wants to negotiate a peace treaty with Putin, and even if he did, would Biden aided by the Military Industrial Complex let him.
You seem to think that the majority of Ukrainian civilians will cooperate with Russian forces some have yes but I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that most of them will and especially in the capital, you suggest as well that if they civilians don’t cooperate they will be killed and the city razed to the ground, a complete contradiction to what Putin has said with regards to civilians.
Several EU leaders would like a peace deal, however for now they are not calling the shots the USA is and the UK has already stated that its in the war for the long haul. As for sympathy for Neo-Nazism in the Ukraine, I’m under the impression that there are many streets and monuments to Nazi sympathisers in the country, of course there will be many many Ukrainians who want nothing to do with the ugly face of Nazism, but they may find Putin’s SMO more odious, and put their differences aside for now for the sake of the country.
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jun 22 2022 17:12 utc | 249
karlof1 | Jun 22 2022 17:10 utc | 249
> On June 22, 1941, Nazi Germany and its European satellites attacked the USSR without declaring war.
Poor USSR. Two years after the USSR having invaded and annexed Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and parts of Romania.. they get attacked themselves and are the heroes of the story! 🙂
Posted by: Albert | Jun 22 2022 17:15 utc | 251
@ Debsisdead | Jun 22 2022 8:20 utc | 118
I take your point, that expecting the RF to be all purity and selfless benevolence is hopelessly naive. On the other hand, we have to understand that the RF, indeed the entire world, is on a tightrope right now. So far the RF strategy has been to do as little as possible, to play a waiting game and to act only when absolutely necessary and then to act decisively. Given that we are all still alive at this point, that they are still very much in the game (winning even) I find myself reluctant to criticise.
No doubt we will discover in due course (barring nuclear devastation) that a world run by the Chinese and the RF is going to be far cry from the paradise that the optimists amongst us might imagine it to be. I have long been reconciled to the unfortunate fact that rulers are inherently liable to be ruthless individuals, the best we can hope for is that they are at least intelligent with it.
Posted by: MarkU | Jun 22 2022 17:17 utc | 252
MarkU (238).
Yes Mark, a border with the rest of the Ukraine in what Russia has liberated/removed Ukrainian forces from so far seems the most probable to me, these region want an affiliation with the Russian Federation from what I can tell.
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jun 22 2022 17:17 utc | 253
@ karlof1 | Jun 22 2022 16:21 utc | 234
This is a most excellent and much appreciated analysis of the situation, but please allow me one quibble:
People [in Occupied Palestine] are emigrating and those remaining aren’t having children–except for Palestinians who very much understand their demographic power.
This is true of only certain sectors of the Jewish population. Yeah, the reasonably sane ones are emigrating or, more likely, just plain dying out. The ultra-Orthodox types and the rabidly Zionist types (including but not limited to the “settlers”) seem to be happy enough staying put, and seem to be doing quite the bangup job procreating.* Perhaps not quite in the numbers necessary to keep the “Israeli Arab” population as underrepresented in future Knessets as they are now, which is why public calls for “transfer” — and private ones for less gentle forms of elimination — continue to increase.
(*Similar phenomenon in the USA, of course. Used to be that we could count on a college education to inspire kids to think that maybe the worldview of Mom, Dad, and the local Reverend was a bit insufficient, but as the college experience continues to deteriorate into bad trade-school training, or becomes entirely inaccessible, to large classes of people, we can expect that to change.)
Posted by: malenkov | Jun 22 2022 17:20 utc | 254
After the small missile lands on Ave. Rothschild , Hillary could “go missing” after one of her walks in the woods after her Chardonnay binge.
Posted by: Bobolinski | Jun 22 2022 17:21 utc | 255
karlof1 @ 253
Thanks for the corrrection. I’ve seen it spelled so many ways, and that was the one that came to mind.
However, he most certainly was no CIA head chopper. Not one bit of trolling in saying that.
Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 22 2022 17:26 utc | 256
NemesisCalling @247: “They may have a remnant psychotraumatic affliction from living under Soviet Russia…”
Wanna know what is really strange? People who are old enough to have actually lived in the Soviet Union have a much more positive opinion about the USSR than do people who were not born yet in 1991. (Pew Research poll.)
So… people who actually lived the Soviet life have a more positive opinion of it than do people who only learned about it from capitalist mass media and from school history textbooks rewritten by rabid anti-Soviet diaspora. Who’d`av thunk it?
That is something to think about, don’t you agree? Isn’t it possible that someone who experiences something first hand might have a more accurate assessment of the thing than someone who learns about it from Hollywood and school textbooks? And what does this say about the quality of the content of those textbooks?
Note that those textbooks rewritten after 1991 (on the dime of the US State Department) largely align with how history is taught in the US. Do you think it might be possible that Americans have also been taught inaccurate “truths” about the USSR?
Like I said, this is something everyone should spend a bit of time deeply contemplating.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 22 2022 17:29 utc | 257
William Gruff @260
The phenomenon you are seeing in those polls is called nostalgia.
Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 22 2022 17:34 utc | 258
@Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 22 2022 16:16 utc | 233
In fact, Telegram is full of videos of Ukrainian people welcoming the Russians and making lines to ask for a Russian passport where that possibility is available, once they realize that wherever the Russians arrive and take over stablish order, life return to normal, personal debts are condoned, electric grids and other infrastructure are repaired, land demined, and, above all, ( and compared to the West where privileges for Ukrainian refugees are being retired in all countriesas we talk due the comparative agravious with regard European taxpayers being plundered by their governments through astronomic energy prices of which at least half of the ammount are taxes…) energy prices return to an affordable reasonable ammount in concordance with Ukrainian wages and normal development of modern life.
This is why currently millions are returning to Ukraine and in fact only 15.000 Ukrainian refugees have asked for asylum in the EU.
It is Russia who hosts the largest ammount of Ukrainian refugees in the million and a half, and why even young conscripts are surrendering asking for a Russian passport…
One has to understand the Ukrainian people and their common sense, since even we Europeans would great the Russians getting us rid of the like of Von der Leyen and her ilk, who tell us to low the heat or air conditioner two degrees to avoid dependence on Russian energy, while at the same time making us paying prices we can hardly afford for much longer. Or telling us to collect wood as if we were being returned to the stone age, only for these stooges to continue theor careers as transferrers of European wealth to US/UK funds and financial elites in Davos in exchange for a luxury life for them in a tax haven.
Posted by: Ghost of Mozgovoy | Jun 22 2022 17:38 utc | 259
Joe6pack @259
There is no debate that the CIA was deeply involved with the terrorists in Chechnya. Was Dudayev on the Langley payroll? Probably at least since he was in Estonia, but there is no evidence available online for it. That said, it would have been a significant oversight by the CIA to not have recruited him, and that was back in the days when the CIA’s plans sometimes actually worked as intended.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 22 2022 17:56 utc | 260
Joe6pack @261: “The phenomenon you are seeing in those polls is called ….”
It is called capitalist brainwashing, and you are a victim of it.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 22 2022 18:04 utc | 261
Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 22 2022 17:29 utc | 260
> Wanna know what is really strange? People who are old enough to have actually lived in the Soviet Union have a much more positive opinion about the USSR than do people who were not born yet in 1991. (Pew Research poll.)
Surviver bias. The unhappy ones ended in the Gulags.
Posted by: moa78 | Jun 22 2022 18:15 utc | 262
Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 22 2022 16:16 utc | 233
“I really doubt the average Ukrainian loves the Nazis as much you seem to think they do. The Nazi government in Kiev wouldn’t have to be arresting people at roadblocks for forced conscription if the people there were eager to put their lives on the line to prevent denazification. They would have plenty of volunteers.”
I suspect that absent funding from CIA and Jewish Oligarch that 90% of Nazi action will die immediately. There will always be a small number of fanatics – as there are in all populations – but take away the funding and training and coordinating etc. and it will all vanish.
@260 gruff
I again agree. But do keep in mind that it cuts both ways.
Your aversion to capitalism in the U.S. does similarly not overrule the warm feelings that millions of people have for that system.
There were and are winners and losers in both of these systems of organization. And I would also say that as these systems approach their zenith, so to does unreality encroach. Meaning: the perfection of these systems can not be maintained and so they both carry within their being the stuff of the future that has not come yet.
You and I are correct in our assesment that these actions by Russia are NOT Soviet Revanchism. And when I say that Russia is giving Europe back to itself, it means that Putin is dead serious when he says he will go as far as needed and then stop. Then, Europe and hopefully America will be simultaneously dangling over an abyss, free from Jewish finance, yet again open to the question of Being in our Dasein.
The aim is to destroy the globalists. That Putin and Russia use the word “Nazi” is not fooling me and shouldn’t be fooling intelligent people here either. We deserve to understand the truth as messy as it can be and suffice to say, appealing to the historical image of the Nazis as death-warriors is simple, yes, for simpletons, but does not satisfy my need to understand the truth.
How absurd it is to think that the Allies killed and gutted Nazi Germany, yet some think that the two forces opposite Soviet Russia were in some kind of cahoots. Paperclip was a brain drain, nothing else. One of the three beligerents in World War 2 didn’t want the Soviets to get a hold of all that German brain power. But here at the bar, people have been saying that this is proof that the Allies firebombing Germany into the stoneage didn’t matter, because at the end of the war, they had some kind of hidden arrangement that Nazism would escape to the west and be reborn again!!! Lol. Why wouldn’t they just team up with Germany then and there, as Patton wanted, and steamroll the Soviets? That’s a question for the future to ponder as it is clear that the worldview of many can not make room for such a ghastly thought.
So again…I see nothing wrong on stating that Soviet Russia gave many a safe and warm place. But so to has Capitalist America. The question is what is next? Because both of these systems have proven they can not and will not stand.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jun 22 2022 18:41 utc | 264
The combined west cuts off Kaliningrad from Russia, and then tells the Russian that they have no reason to complain as this blockade is in accordance with their(!) sanctions packet.
I really love this argument. What an arrogance! What a base contempt!
It shows us that they didn’t get the message. They won’t get it before they are definitively defeated by military means.
There was a European politician who once said:
Last questions between nations will find their answer only on the battlefield.
I am afraid he was fucking right
Posted by: njet | Jun 22 2022 20:12 utc | 265
So again…I see nothing wrong on stating that Soviet Russia gave many a safe and warm place. But so to has Capitalist America. The question is what is next? Because both of these systems have proven they can not and will not stand.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jun 22 2022 18:41 utc | 267
What I would like to see but am not holding my breath for is autonomy at the local level, and broader levels of government that serve rather than rule. I subscribe to the observation in the Declaration of Independence that government derives its just powers from the consent of the governed.
Posted by: David Levin | Jun 22 2022 20:52 utc | 266
karlof1 | Jun 22 2022 16:21 utc | 234
_____
Thanks for your reply, illuminating as always2. As noted in an earlier post on this issue, whenever I second-guess Russian strategy or tactics, I’m usually pleasantly schooled and embarrassed.
But here I go again: about how the listed goals are balanced. DebsIsDead has some valid points. Israeli air strikes on Damascus certainly appear to be a neocon tactic to provoke Russian escalation toward full-scale war using Syria as yet another pawn. And Russia, mindful of goal one, is not taking the bait, but surely there are proportionate responses that it can and IMO, should take in defense of an ally, which arguably would also serve as a deterrent to war. So far, Israel strikes Syria regularly with impunity, without any response, and longstanding inaction is beginning to look like appeasing a bully (if not the collusion Debs alleges). This does little to promote the other goals and in the long run, may not effectively serve goal one either. Assuming Israel is as immune to diplomacy as the US is, then non-escalatory measures, including better missile and anti-aircraft defense systems, seem highly appropriate, even necessary. Surely hostile aircraft in one’s airspace are legitimate targets. Why not target a $200 million F35 … better yet, two? I can’t think of a better demonstration of Russian resolve and capability.
Posted by: Doug Hillman | Jun 22 2022 22:15 utc | 267
2) Not being attackable by NATO.
Posted by: c1ue | Jun 22 2022 14:25 utc | 202
But Erdogan was targeted by the US, and only saved by the Russians.
Posted by: Olivier | Jun 22 2022 23:31 utc | 268
Did someone read?
Collateral Damage: U.S. Covert Operations and the Terrorist Attacks on September 11, 2001.
Posted by: Olivier | Jun 22 2022 23:50 utc | 269
William Gruff | Jun 22 2022 17:29 utc | 260
Notable that US pysops in Russian Federation targeted those that did not live through the Russian nineties. Kids with malleable minds. Russia put a stop to it by convicting Navalny of inciting minors.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 22 2022 23:59 utc | 270
Doug Hillman @270–
An old adage: Revenge is a dish best served cold.
What better way to get back at OP than arranging a regional peace agreement that includes the Palestinians and all the UNSCRs on the issue that puts both OP and the Outlaw US Empire at odds with the entire world since they have striven to avoid those very UNSCRs. Since it will be opposed, the world will then be free to treat OP as it did Apartheid South Africa, which will escalate the exodus and further ruin its economy. OP will face having to agree or die just as SA did. Now I’m not saying that will happen tomorrow or even next year, but it will. Syria will get its lands back without having to return to full-scale war, while Russian diplomats pat each other on the back.
Russia’s internal politics presents a dilemma as I explained that’s rather sensitive and must be well handled. Lots of effort’s spent on the region by MFA with some of its best people assigned. I recall several years ago not long after Trump was elected when Patrushev was sent to Tel Aviv to deliver a very stark diktat to Nuttyyahoo and Rex Tillerson about attacking Iran–that would be an action crossing Russia’s Red Lines and the outcome would be very bad for OP. That’s an event debs and others forget.
Glory to Russsia. From Syria
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOEuaoc39Aw
A musical reply to debsisdead with some soft military porn.
Posted by: tucenz | Jun 23 2022 2:15 utc | 272
Wooblie @206,
Now you turn to absurd lies to fuel your hatred and desperation.
Which Kremlin officials threatened the west with nuclear war? Name them and list them.
It is you, with some in your corrupt, stupid senators have called for a limited nuclear strike on Russia.
Russia said that” if you go too far, you will feel something never before in your history”. That is 3or 4 conventional ballistic missiles into north America, enough to cause panic, chaos and complete disintegration.
The bullying west now complains about how they are bullied.
If any of you think that China or Russia has any interest in taking over the drug infested , homelessness, poverty, gun violence, inflation, uneducated, misdirected etc.you have another thing coming soon.
No, stew in your own garbage.
Also, an accident is SURE to happen, where ever that magnificent example of russian naval skill is located.
Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 22 2022 16:51 utc | 245
https://news.trust.org/item/20170626101937-6xsul
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville_collision
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Hartford_and_USS_New_Orleans_collision
Should I go on Popeye ?
“Don’t spit into the Wind”
Jhzo Tzu
Posted by: Tom_12 | Jun 23 2022 6:10 utc | 274
“Survivor bias. The unhappy ones ended in the Gulags.” moa78@265
I think that you will find that the proportion of the Soviet Union’s population incarcerated by the state was significantly smaller than that imprisoned in the United States.
Posted by: bevin | Jun 23 2022 7:33 utc | 275