Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 21, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-91

Only news & views related to the Ukraine conflict ...

The open thread for other issues is here.

Posted by b on June 21, 2022 at 17:11 UTC | Permalink

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Lol, first caught massacering people, then caught trying to cover it up. A Putin classic

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-netherlands-the-hague-crime-85faf9651bfc44e4a5e2e617331a1b7a

Posted by: Albert | Jun 21 2022 17:15 utc | 1

Russia following the big boys and delivering Freedom™ with Mach 2. Nothing works better to improve approval ratings at home and to sweep corruption and state repression under the rug.

Posted by: Moa74 | Jun 21 2022 17:21 utc | 2

Meanwhile on Murdoch's Sky channel on Italian TV a reporter states that many of the people living in Bucha were in fact Russian collaborators that Ukraine had a right to kill:
Link to Italian original

Posted by: M Le Docteur Ralph | Jun 21 2022 17:32 utc | 3

Link to English subtitled version

Posted by: M Le Docteur Ralph | Jun 21 2022 17:34 utc | 4

So what happens when the Donbas falls, when the last Ukrainian or mercenary is either killed, captured or surrenders, what will the head of Nato (USA) do then. Will sanctions against all things Russian go into overdrive, will the US tell the president of Ukraine to get around a table with Putin to agree terms, or will the US see the fall of the Donbas as a time to retreat, recoup, resupply and prepare for further hostilities against Russian forces at a later date.

Maybe the emphasis will switch from the Donbas to what appears to be a softer target such as Crimea and attacks will take place there more frequently. Or will the US open a wider front in Syria to try and stretch Russian forces, whatever the plan, its all but certain the Donbas will fall to Russian/LPR/DPR/Chechen forces, what happens from there is unclear.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jun 21 2022 17:39 utc | 5

@Albert #1 if i had a corrupt prosecutor working against myself, I'd want some inside info as well.

Posted by: Mark | Jun 21 2022 17:49 utc | 6

Preliminary reports of RF et al entering Mirnaya Dolina.

When taken, it'll signify that the UA defense of the Lisichansk-southern-flank has run its course.

We'll also then find out if the more capable UA forces who held this area for so many weeks quietly departed the area (leaving behind in their place any number of territorial defense unfortunates), or if they were ordered to remain there and go down fighting in a more convincing and needlessly destructive manner.

Posted by: ptb | Jun 21 2022 17:53 utc | 7

Doctorow's Latest. He took a few days to compose himself and this piece which is about the St. Petersburg Economic Forum from 2 days ago:

https://gilbertdoctorow.com/2022/06/20/right-between-the-eyes-putin-to-the-west-at-the-st-petersburg-economic-forum/

"Right between the eyes: Putin to the West at the St Petersburg Economic forum
gilbertdoctorow Uncategorized June 20, 2022 10 Minutes
I have taken my time preparing a commentary on Putin’s speech to the Plenary Session of the St Petersburg Economic Forum last Friday, and I am well satisfied that this was the right decision. Others have written about the content and delivery of the speech. Still others have written about the Forum itself in its twenty-fifth anniversary, with a particular emphasis placed on the absence of foreign government leaders and of high level contingents of Western businessmen.

What I intend to do here is to go beyond these narrow constraints and to put the event in the broader context of several other important international developments that have occurred in the past few days, many of which are interrelated. They have barely received the attention they deserve in global media and I intend to make amends here.

*****

The slogan of this year’s Forum was “A New World. New Possibilities.” Put another way, in terms well familiar to the Western business community, the logic here is not to let a good crisis go to waste but to react in a constructive manner that takes the economy and standard of living to new heights previously unattainable through import substitution, which is just another name for reindustrialization.

Both in the specialized sessions which were broadcast live and in the plenary session to which Putin spoke, the challenges posed by current, draconian Western sanctions on Russia were spelled out in great detail without any self-deception or gloss. The same was true of businessmen speaking truth to Power when commenting on the Government’s proposed programs to help the economy during the transition period to new logistical solutions, new trade flows and new local manufacturing: “don’t do the usual thing and build a bridge to the middle of the river; go all the way with radical new solutions and in particular with a very cheap credit policy to provide working capital to where it is needed most.” This kind of talk which I heard in the session chaired by Sberbank general director Gref, is both responsible and bold.

Indeed, the most relevant adjective to describe the proceedings would be “frank.” Political correctness was no longer being practiced. Interlocutors in the West were no longer called “partners.” In his speech, Putin led the way, criticizing the American administration and the European bureaucratic elites setting policy in Brussels for economic illiteracy.

For his part, the most honored international guest at the Forum, Kazakhstan’s president Kasym-Zhomart Tokaev, did not mince words either when answering a question put to him by the moderator, RT editor-in-chief Margarita Simonyan during Q&A following the keynote speech: whether he recognizes the Donbas republics of Donetsk and Lugansk as independent states? “No,” he said, without hesitation though he was seated on stage just a couple of meters from Vladimir Putin......"

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 21 2022 17:54 utc | 8

Does anyone know how many African leaders were present at Zelenski sprach for the african Union.
Hear 4 rest were representators.

Posted by: Twoface | Jun 21 2022 17:54 utc | 9

@Republicofscotland #5

Nothing will change. Ukr/nato targets are civilians, not soldiers. The same attacks that that started in 2014 are expanded now to include regions inside Russia, at border. So nato is winning so far, they don't care about Ukr as long as Russians keep dying. That's the reason for biolabs too.
When most Ukr soldiers will be dead, nazis will continue using nato weapons for terrorist attacks and nato will continue to supply them and send "volunteers". Forever. There is no danger to eu or nato, nothing to stop them. The Russian leadership is too weak and Putin has bad military advisors.

Posted by: rk | Jun 21 2022 17:59 utc | 10

Posted by: Mark | Jun 21 2022 17:49 utc | 6
The wretched Albert's pathetic trollin attempts is only doing what he's paid to do. Pity his sad life.

Posted by: ManintheMoon | Jun 21 2022 18:01 utc | 11

Republicofscotland @5--

Russia will continue to pursue its announced goals for the SMO--demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine. I've always contended that means Ukraine's entire territory based on Putin's words back in February.

The Lithuanian pawn just moved by the Outlaw US Empire was made to induce a countermove by Russia that attacks Russia's sovereignty--by treaty, the rail line is Russian territory and threatening it also threatens Lithuania's sovereignty since it only exists in its current form because of the treaty it just broke. Lithuania either reverses its course or Russia exercises its right to defend its territory. IMO, as with Ukraine, Lithuania will be the next nation sacrificed in the Outlaw US Empire's proxy war against Russia. The Baltics are the most vociferous Russophobes, so it will be interesting to see what transpires. The Baltics's economies suffered Neoliberal parasite hollowing out and are weaker than they were during their interwar period of independence. And their actions have severed trade relations with their biggest market and potential supporter--Russia. And all three face an existential demographic crisis. But then, pawns are meant to be sacrificed.

As for additional illegal sanctions, the results from what's been imposed already ought to ward off any more as there's not much left to embargo.

As for Syria, the Outlaw US Empire doesn't have any real strength there to do anything. The only reason it remains is Russia wants to avoid direct combat, although its continually edging closer.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2022 18:05 utc | 12

WOW... looks like Langley and Vauxhall Cross have just decided MOA is worthy of more resources.

Congrats to b and all the regular posters ;-)

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Jun 21 2022 18:07 utc | 13

I wonder if Russia will repeat what Belarus did in 2021. Thousands of Iraqis (mostly Yezidis and Kurdish) flew to Belarus after being stuck in refugee camps in Iraq. The Yezidi have suffered especially horribly. The women survived enslavement by ISIS. They crossed the border into Lithuania and were put in detention by Lithuania which tried to get rid of them. Most stayed and there are still a few thousand refugees in Lithuania stuck at the detention centers. Lithuania has since built a barrier with Belarus. Russia is seeking some kind of response to the blockade. If it follows Belarus then Russia/Belarus would probably send construction equipment to clear the barrier to open the way for new Yezidi refugees to go to Lithuania. On the kinetic response ladder this is probably the most gentle option.

Posted by: freekurdistan | Jun 21 2022 18:18 utc | 14

@Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 21 2022 17:54 utc | 8

I find this Tokayev, who was saved from color revolution by Russia, quite duplicitious.

He seats at the SPIEF by the side of Putin with such angry expression while he keeps on supporting the West´s actions and views at every opportunity and while turning his country into an advanced outpost of the kind of tecnocratic dictatorship inferno dictated from Davos for all...

I guess Putin continues trying this Central Asian country does not fall on the side of the West, and that way constituting a stone in the shoe for Russia, by inviting this strange personage...

Posted by: Ghost of Mozgovoy | Jun 21 2022 18:20 utc | 15

Meanwhile, a very important meeting of Russia's "State Council Presidium on the strategy for the development of the construction industry and housing and communal services until 2030 with a forecast for the period up to 2035" was held today. Putin's opening comments provides a hint at the major underlying reason for this undertaking--Russia's demographic crisis:

I would like to note that our construction complex has enormous potential as a powerful locomotive for the development of Russia as a whole and the regions. It must be fully implemented. To do this, among other things, continue clearing bureaucratic barriers from all stages of construction and further operation of facilities, introduce effective financial and investment tools, and expand the space for business initiative. And of course, like all spheres of our life, construction, housing and utilities, we must develop on a fundamentally new technological basis.

A set of such tasks, approaches to their implementation are formulated in the presented draft strategy for the development of the construction industry and housing and communal services until 2030. It also outlines measures with a forecast until 2035.

I will say right away that, taking into account the approaches laid down in this strategic document, it is necessary to extend the action of the national project "Housing and Urban Environment" until 2030.

One of the key, basic areas of the upcoming work is to increase the affordability of housing. For every family, an apartment, a house is not just a material good, but also a solid foundation for the birth and upbringing of children, for a happy, prosperous life. No wonder our ancestors said: it is good for those who are in their home. [My Emphasis]

Given all the material incentives, if I were young again, I'd move to Russia and father as many children as my wife would agree to beyond three, and support them by having a business connected to the transport corridors.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2022 18:21 utc | 16

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Jun 21 2022 18:07 utc | 13

Yeah, strange characters, first in when the bar opens so as to leave a sulfur stench as Hugo complained while at the UN.

Posted by: Paco | Jun 21 2022 18:26 utc | 17

Posted by: Paco | Jun 21 2022 18:26 utc | 17

AHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Poor Hugo. Balls of steel and outstanding orator.

Regarding the other characters, I pity the sort of drone whose job description includes shitting up internet forums because gringo bastards absolutely need to have a finger in every pie.

Let's see how long that sort of funding lasts now 🤭

Posted by: Arganthonios | Jun 21 2022 18:41 utc | 18

I just heard on radio that the Ukrainian group that “won” Eurovision Song Contest - will be performing at Glastonbury this weekend.

I will expect the politically aware crowd that glasto is famous for to make sure any attempt at supporting elenskys regime or any racist anti russianism to be met with ‘No to Nazis’, Fuck Azovs and Nazis’ and general jeering if any attempt is made to support the murderous Elensky forces destroying their own men by conscription and instant canon fodder crap.

Call for peace by all means. Glasto was always about Peace and anti racism.

Do the right thing.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Jun 21 2022 18:41 utc | 19

Posted by: Ghost of Mozgovoy | Jun 21 2022 18:20 utc | 15

I watched Tokayev live and I was impressed, he has spent eight years in China and he is an orientalist by profession, did not use headphones while Xi spoke, besides, he speaks Russian perfectly and the most important part, he behaves like a balanced head of state, remember that head of states are there to defend their country's interests, and a very big country susceptible of being torn apart like many others -Sudan, Yugoslavia and now Ukraine- his position is only logical and full of common sense, even Lukashenko has not formally recognized Crimea as Russian, that gives you an idea, better equal and beneficial for all relations that a sovereign suzerain one. Besides, geography is a big conditional, Tokayev knows who his neighbors are, Kazakhstan shares with Russia the longest border in the world, and with China not a short one, that's a big constrain for a decaying empire to set foot there.

Symonian was not the right person to host a forum like that, she is the head of a big enterprise, but that does not make her a good hostess which like a waiter in a formal dinner their main function is not being noticed, she played like a part to the meeting, and the results are there to see.

Posted by: Paco | Jun 21 2022 18:42 utc | 20

to several commentators here.... G. Doctorow has a different take on Tokayev, Putin and Symonian, etc etc


https://gilbertdoctorow.com/2022/06/20/right-between-the-eyes-putin-to-the-west-at-the-st-petersburg-economic-forum/
Right between the eyes: Putin to the West at the St Petersburg Economic forum

".....For his part, the most honored international guest at the Forum, Kazakhstan’s president Kasym-Zhomart Tokaev, did not mince words either when answering a question put to him by the moderator, RT editor-in-chief Margarita Simonyan during Q&A following the keynote speech: whether he recognizes the Donbas republics of Donetsk and Lugansk as independent states? “No,” he said, without hesitation though he was seated on stage just a couple of meters from Vladimir Putin.

Tokaev explained that the United Nations Charter contains two contradictory principles: the territorial integrity of Member States and the right of populations within any State to self-determination, meaning declaration of their independence without asking or receiving the permission of the Government of the Member State. In this context, Tokaev added, if the right of secession were to take the upper hand, the present membership of the UN at 200 or so countries would balloon out to over 500 and this would create chaos. Accordingly, Kazakhstan does not recognize the independence of Kosovo, which Russia has used as a precedent for its own actions with respect to various ‘frozen conflicts’ in Former Soviet Republics, such as South Ossetia and Abkhazia. This being said, it was also clear by his presence at the Forum that Tokaev supports Russia economically and politically in its ongoing proxy war with the United States on Ukrainian territory."

.....In what I saw of Simonyan’s performance last Friday, I will freely admit that whatever her competence as a news station manager, she is an outstanding journalist...."

Posted by: michaelj72 | Jun 21 2022 18:59 utc | 21

@Posted by: Paco | Jun 21 2022 18:42 utc | 20

Yeah, Symonian, as happens to all the liberals who remained in and loyal to Russia, misses great time the international repercussion and relations she and her media had during the golden years of openess and "partnership" with the West...

She does not seem a bad person, but, yes, always longing for a bit of protagonism.

Anyway, she seems to enjoy the favour of both the Kremlin and the business community who are hosts at SPIEF.

Tokayev´s ability to speak Russian does not seems an endeavour for a child educated in Soviet times, just saying...Regarding his eight years spent in China, enough time to learn Chinese language, it must be becuase of that that he adopted such unperturbable, Xi like, effigy expression he spends everyhwere he goes or appears....

Posted by: Ghost of Mozgovoy | Jun 21 2022 19:00 utc | 22

@19 I suspect you may be disappointed. Blue and yellow flags will be issued to the 'politically aware' crowd. Perhaps even khaki T-shirts.

Posted by: dh | Jun 21 2022 19:01 utc | 23

How about this?
https://gpovanman.wordpress.com/2022/06/21/bridging-the-gap/

Posted by: RoseRed | Jun 21 2022 19:06 utc | 24

Broader trade issues discussed in this excellent article also explaining why war is happening now:

https://thecradle.co/Article/columns/11928
TITLE:
"St. Petersburg sets the stage for the War of Economic Corridors
In St. Petersburg, the world's new powers gather to upend the US-concocted “rules-based order” and reconnect the globe their way."

" [conclusion]
The International North South Transportation Corridor (INSTC)

The INSTC corridor is a classic South-South integration project: a 7,200-km-long multimodal network of ship, rail, and road routes interlinking India, Afghanistan, Central Asia, Iran, Azerbaijan and Russia all the way to Finland in the Baltic Sea.

Technically, picture a set of containers going overland from St. Petersburg to Astrakhan. Then the cargo sails via the Caspian to the Iranian port of Bandar Anzeli. Then it’s transported overland to the port of Bandar Abbas. And then overseas to Nava Sheva, the largest seaport in India. The key operator is Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Lines (the IRISL group), which has branches in both Russia and India.

And that brings us to what wars from now will be fought about: transportation corridors – and not territorial conquest.

Beijing’s fast-paced BRI is seen as an existential threat to the ‘rules-based international order.’ It develops along six overland corridors across Eurasia, plus the Maritime Silk Road from the South China Sea, and the Indian Ocean, all the way to Europe.

One of the key targets of NATO’s proxy war in Ukraine is to interrupt BRI corridors across Russia. The Empire will go all out to interrupt not only BRI but also INSTC nodes. Afghanistan under US occupation was prevented from become a node for either BRI or INSTC.

With full access to the Sea of Azov – now a “Russian lake” – and arguably the whole Black Sea coastline further on down the road, Moscow will hugely increase its sea trading prospects (Putin: “The Black Sea was historically Russian territory”).

For the past two decades, energy corridors have been heavily politicized and are at the center of unforgiving global pipeline competitions – from BTC and South Stream to Nord Stream 1 and 2, and the never-ending soap operas, the Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India (TAPI) and Iran-Pakistan-India (IPI) gas pipelines.

Then there’s the Northern Sea Route alongside the Russian coastline all the way to the Barents Sea. China and India are very much focused on the Northern Sea Route, not by accident also discussed in detail in St. Petersburg.

The contrast between the St. Petersburg debates on a possible re-wiring of our world – and the Three Stooges Taking a Train to Nowhere to tell a mediocre Ukrainian comedian to calm down and negotiate his surrender (as confirmed by German intelligence) – could not be starker.

Almost imperceptibly – just as it re-incorporated Crimea and entered the Syrian theater – Russia as a military-energy superpower now shows it is potentially capable of driving a great deal of the industrialized west back into the Stone Age. The western elites are just helpless. If only they could ride a corridor on the Eurasian high-speed train, they might learn something."

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 21 2022 19:24 utc | 25

rk (10).

Tactics will have to change once the Donbas falls, simply because they'll be no one to funnel weapons to in the Donbas, and there lies the crux of the matter for Nato, the front line is spread across such a large area and the heavy weapons that Nato is trying to supply to the East of Ukraine are either destroyed in transit by the Russian airforce, or not enough ammunition is getting through to make any difference.

Nato might advise Zelensky to forget about trying to take the Donbas simply because of the logistics of getting troops and weapons to it, and instead to concentrate on attacking a target that is nearer and easier to resupply weapons to Ukrainian forces, and in the process draw Russian troops West, and stretch their supply lines.

Of course air superiority will play a major role in what happens next, and as long as Russia has air superiority any attack by the Ukrainian forces will always be open to air strikes by the Russian airforce.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jun 21 2022 19:25 utc | 26

Albert,

The AP also told us Iraq had WMD. They even showed Colin Powell holding a vial of yellowcake.

how’s that going?

Posted by: RTD | Jun 21 2022 19:28 utc | 27

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4rWfPPR-V8

The man who should be President...

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 21 2022 19:38 utc | 28

"Russia will continue to pursue its announced goals for the SMO--demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine. I've always contended that means Ukraine's entire territory based on Putin's words back in February."

Karlof1 (12).

If you mean by the above that Russia will occupy the whole of Ukraine, I find that implausible, simply because of the size of Ukraine, the Wests uses the propaganda angle that its taken Russia over one-hundred days to reach this point, however I'm pretty sure even US military heads will be saying to themselves and in private, that what Russia has achieved with such a small force in Ukraine, in this amount of time, is quite remarkable considering the size of the country, its (Ukraine) fighting forces and the logistical help and training that Ukraine has received from the Nato and the EU.


Putin's feint towards Kiev in the opening days of the SMO was a masterstroke, it drew many Ukraine troops away from other areas and towards the capital to defend it, this allowed the Russian forces to progress in those lightly guarded areas. I don't think Kiev was ever on the agenda, simply because it would take far too much time and effort and with great civilian and Russian military casualties to actually take the city, and furthermore there would be no guarantees the civilians would be cheering the arrival of the Russian forces, as they have in other areas of Ukraine.


No I think the liberation of the Donbas along with several other regions which are quite happy to use Russian currency and hold Russian passports will be the extent of the SMO

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jun 21 2022 19:41 utc | 29

karlog1 @16

"Given all the material incentives, if I were young again, I'd move to Russia and father as many children as my wife would agree to beyond three, and support them by having a business connected to the transport corridors."

russian does sound more attractive now, although i worry about his emphasis on deregulation.

even at my also late age, i am going to investigate mexico. closer and i know a bit of spanish. tried russian on duolingo and realized it would take me forever.

Posted by: polarbear4 | Jun 21 2022 19:43 utc | 30

For the terrorist attacks I was talking about there is already nough nato supply for many years. Things like shooting down civilian planes (not a first for Ukr), exploding trains or ports or factories, killing people in charge (already happening in liberated areas but not successfull) etc. As long as there is no threat to eu/nato, no or little economic pressure, nothing will change.
The neonazis in Germany are very angry these days, threats of nuclear attack from their generals. Germans probably haven't found a genetic weapon in the Ukr biolabs. Yet

Posted by: rk | Jun 21 2022 19:43 utc | 31

Re: area S and SW of Lisichansk

Rybar update: https://t.me/rybar/34238

Summary - UA and associated forces make partial withdrawal from Gorskoe and Zolotoe, as speculated in previous comment #7 above

Posted by: ptb | Jun 21 2022 19:55 utc | 32

How is that troll #1 and troll #2 are still at the top of the page? It looks like the troll army is waiting for a thread to open and jumps in immediately.

Posted by: Olivier | Jun 21 2022 19:59 utc | 33

Republicofscotland @29--

Thanks for your reply. I base my assessment on what Russia has declared, no more, no less. You of course are entitled to make your own assessment. I anticipated Russia's actions back in November when it was declared genocidal conditions existed in Donbass that must be rectified, which is when the legislative process began to make the SMO reality. Understanding the very long history of CIA involvement with Ukraine's Nazis provides me with further insight into Russia's motives and the extent to which it will carry out denazification.

polarbear4 @30--

Yes, my time to leave has long gone and I'm committed to remaining until my demise unless something extraordinary happens. The place where the future action will happen is Eurasia.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2022 20:02 utc | 34

@33 ... yep, tho I think it's like the same 3 people using different names

Posted by: ptb | Jun 21 2022 20:09 utc | 35

@24 RoseRed

Makes sense.

The rule of thumb for Ukraine must be Donbass Line + Farthest distance UAF can fire any projectile.

RF could really change lives for the good in the Baltics. If the region is being run/ruined by US-zATO militias/lords of war then it must be saved.

Posted by: WTFUD | Jun 21 2022 20:12 utc | 36

Medvedev goes off on his telegram again:

Question from RIA Novosti: "Recently, there have been many comments on how important it is for humanity to start discussing the extension of the START-3 Treaty with the Americans or a new agreement on limiting strategic potentials without delay. What do you think?"

Maria Zakharova:

It will depend on the decision of the President of the country.

In turn, as a person who was directly related to START-3 and signed it in 2010, I consider the time for new negotiations to be the most inappropriate.
Last year, the situation for negotiations on a new agreement was different, as was also mentioned by Vladimir Putin, who extended START-3 by 5 years by exchanging notes with Dmitry Biden. And it was.

And now that's it: dead zone.
We don't have any relations with the United States right now. They're at Kelvin's point of zero.

And there is no need to defrost them today. And there is no need to negotiate with them yet. This is harmful to Russia. Let them run or crawl and ask for it. And they appreciate it as a special mercy. Otherwise, it looks like this: they are complete abominations to us, and we are to them – the nuclear deal.

Unproductive, dangerous and looks like a sign of weakness. Let them truly appreciate such a dialogue and ask for it on all the streets and in the gateways.

By the way, there is another proven method of communicating with America on this topic – a shoe on the UN rostrum. Once upon a time it worked... [My Emphasis]

Part of this was included in this RT item that shared Peskov's reply to a question posed by NBC during its interview with him along with Putin's statement at SPIEF:

"[Russia] never trust [the] West again."

"'It is a mistake to suggest that the times of turbulent changes can be waited out and that things will return to normal; that everything will be as it was. It won’t.'"

And to those we should recall what Lavrov has said in several interviews and pressers, paraphrased: The West is dead to us. That War on Russia was declared by the Collective West. And yes, that's why only a small portion of Russia's military was committed to Ukraine since an escalation with NATO is expected and the next pawn moved to provoke Russia to strike first.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2022 20:15 utc | 37

RTD @ 27

Talking about fake news. RT and all the other totally non government controlled Russian media (*cough* special operation never a war) told us that Russia has absolutely no intention to invade it's neighbor.

How's that?

Posted by: Albert | Jun 21 2022 20:17 utc | 38

Posted by: Alpi | Jun 21 2022 17:32 utc | 4
They will keep shooting US economy in the foot at the expense of ordinary citizens.
-
Why the 'green agenda' Biden administration thought that this is a smart move is beyond me."
Posted by: Et Tu | Jun 21 2022 17:45 utc | 9 <= power companies and the oil industries do not want solar to take over their business.
The USA tech companies d\n have monopoly power (patent and copyright) over solar technology?
-
Posted by: A.L. | Jun 21 2022 18:10 utc | 11
some very powerful people with an agenda are deliberately wrecking Western economies.
<=O&G, photonic technology industries come to mind, fl has a free install for homeowners nearly every outlying air field has been converted from landing strip to commercial solar farm.
It w/n/b long before no one needs oil and gas or electric generation.. the auto industry
is switching to lithium battery storage and solar power generation, and this is threatening
traditional energy monopolies Even the nuclear power guys are jumping into the buggy works graveyards.

Posted by: NoOneYouKnow | Jun 21 2022 18:16 utc | 12

Of course the real gig is to make those people jobless and angry to hopefully foment discontent... <=not sure discontent is the target its the result of non competition allowed policy.

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 21 2022 18:25 utc | 14
Does US still use forced labour in its prison system ? <=tks fe list.
Free prison labor is the oligarch answer to loss of slave labor and the laws of many states encourage this, several persons I have talked told me many not guilty are convicted anyway because their particular expertise was need within the prison labor system. this is unconfirmed.

Posted by: Arganthonios | Jun 21 2022 18:25 utc | 15
Use of polysilicon sourced from unlawful places risk being subject to detention"
Extends $USD dollar giveaway (to increase Taxpayer debt), the bailouts, the Covid plan to destroy all competition domestic and foreign and to use the government as the marketing arm of Big Pharma. Reduced time to market for market managed pharmaceuticals.
Lawmakers are in service to Mafia managed corporations but their salaries are paid by taxpayers; it all began in 1897 in Basil Switzerland tracks through WWI and WWII <=w/subsequent theft of Ottoman Oil,
eliminated Germany as a competitor, next Russia, tracks through Scranton Commission (1947), Continental Shelf Act (1954), EPA (1973), Saudi oil swap for US Treasury bonds(raised the price of oil from $11/bbl 1975 to $1.50) upward afterward, copyright and patent extensions, time, coverage, and court Acts 1974-current, Digital platform dominance, search engine spying and information control and filtering, and other nation state monopoly powers granted to exchange-registered enterprises. Russia in Ukraine the result of corporate monopoly powered orchestrated USA policy, domestic & foreign, forced onto government.
No competition of any kind allowed to compete with exchange registered enterprises. TAXPAYER Slavery is here..

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jun 21 2022 19:29 utc | 25
The US markets are up over 2.5% today so where is the hurt? <=exactly.. its in the pocket books and life-style of every governed person in the world, but completely invisible to the GNP.


Posted by: Kauai John | Jun 21 2022 19:34 utc | 28 I cannot believe that American Oligarchs are this stupid<= they are that greedy.

Posted by: snake | Jun 21 2022 20:20 utc | 39

Thierry Meysann on the reason why Ukrainians leave their dead on the battlefield
https://www.voltairenet.org/article217363.html
Evidently they are left there because, so the Ukrainian fascists believe, they will rise up again and fight.

"If in previous articles I have presented the history of the Banderist movement from the interwar period to the present day, I would like to talk here about their ideology.

"Their reference intellectual, then and now, is Dmytro Dontsov (1883-1973). Although he died in Canada and was buried in the United States, his works have not been translated, but his followers have made them known to us. This absence in the bookstores of other countries explains why he is unknown abroad. However, after a long period of absence, he’s been one of the best-selling authors in Ukraine these recent years.

"Feeding like the Nazis on his interpretation of Nietzsche, Dmytro Dontsov called for the birth of a "new man" with "a burning faith and a heart of stone" who would not be afraid to destroy the enemies of Ukraine without mercy. Thinker of the "integral Ukrainian nationalism", he built a philosophy where everything nationalistic is against Russia and against Jews.

"He wanted to create an elite people, far from the "egalitarianism of slaves" of the Russian October Revolution and the "universal ideals" of the French Revolution.

He said that the imagination of real Ukrainians must be "fed by the legend of the last battle", the "denial of what is" and the "fascinating image of the catastrophe that will bring something new". They must serve "a categorical order" with "reckless obedience".

"According to him, "Ukrainian nationalism" is characterized by:"the assertion of the will to live, of power, of expansion" (he promotes "The right of strong races to organize peoples and nations to strengthen the existing culture and civilization") "the desire to fight and the awareness of its extremity" (he praises the "creative violence of the initiative minority")

Its qualities are:
"fanaticism" ;
"immorality".

"The fanaticism refers to the religious character of his doctrine. Dontsov notes that this is what makes the warriors invincible. It is therefore perfectly logical that after the World War Stepan Bandera and Yaroslav Stetsko agreed to work in Munich with the secret society of the Muslim Brotherhood, or that in 2007 their followers were able to form an Anti-Russian Front with Chechen jihadists.

"At the beginning of his work, Dontsov was not inspired by Italian fascism or German national socialism, but he appears to be marked by the same reasoning as the Croatian Ustasha, the Romanian Iron Guard, the Slovak Glinka, the Polish Oboz Narodowo-Radykalny.

"In contact with the Nazis, Dontsov began to claim a mythical geography and history. The "true Ukrainians" were said to be of Scandinavian or proto-Germanic origin and to have descended from the Varegues, a Viking tribe from Sweden. Their ancestors founded the city of Novgorod in Russia and subdued the Russian Slavs.

"In this mythology, the "Ukrainian nationalists" are the Good, while the "Muscovites" are the Evil. It is therefore quite normal that the muse of the Svoboda (Freedom) Party, the MP Irina Farion, declared well before the Russian military intervention: "We came into this world to destroy Moscow".


"In 2015, President Petro Poroshenko and his Prime Minister Arseni Yatsenyuk passed a set of laws that on the one hand banned Communist and Nazi symbols and on the other rehabilitated Banderist symbols. In practice, since no one claimed to be a Nazi, the monuments to the victory of the Red Army over the Nazis were destroyed and replaced by others in honor of Stepan Bandera -who was responsible for the murder of 1.6 million of his compatriots- and his master thinker, Dmytro Dontsov.

"The Council of Europe criticized these "decommunization" laws, which cast aspersions on regimes in general without mentioning the acts they condemn.

"It was as a result of these laws that the motto of the Banderists became part of the official discourse: "Glory to Ukraine"....

"Similarly, it makes sense that Ukraine has a legal framework that legalizes a form of racial discrimination. On July 21, 2021, President Volodymyr Zelensky signed a law, introduced at his initiative, on the "indigenous peoples of Ukraine. It states that Tatars and Karaite Jews have "the right to full enjoyment of all human rights and fundamental freedoms" (sic). This text, which seems very generous, is not at all so, because it is interpreted by default. It completes the texts recognizing the rights of Ukrainians of Scandinavian or proto-Germanic origin. In fact, it is used by the Courts to deny the rights of Ukrainians who do not recognize themselves in the general definition, nor in one of these minorities, in other words in those who say they are Slavic of Slavic origin. The latter people are not allowed to bring before a court their "right to full enjoyment of all human rights and fundamental freedoms".

"On March 20, 2022, President Volodymyr Zelensky declared in a video posted on his Telegram account, "Any activity on the part of politicians participating in dividing society or collaborating with the enemy will not succeed, and will receive a severe response." With that, he banned 11 political parties (Opposition Platform - For Life, Sharij’s Party, Nachi, Opposition Bloc, Left Opposition, Union of Left Forces, Derjava, Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialists, Bloc of Volodymyr Saldo). While most of them were not represented in the single chamber, the Verkhovna Rada, Opposition Platform-For Life was the second largest party in the country. It received 13 per cent of the vote and won 43 of 450 deputies.

"Also on March 20, President Zelensky signed decrees banning for five years three opposition channels that had been "suspended" for several months. In addition, he merged all remaining channels under the control of the Security and Defense Council.

"So there is no more freedom of expression, neither for politicians nor for journalists. Ukrainian democracy is dead, not from Russian military intervention, but from the will of its own government.

"A Council for the Development of Libraries was created on May 5, 2022. Among other things, it must decide on the Russian books that are overloading the shelves. The Minister of Culture and Information Policy, journalist Oleksandr Tkachenko, said that they could become a raw material for printing Ukrainian books on recycled paper.

"Book burnings are a classic of dictatorships. This time, we won’t burn anything in public, but we will recycle the paper. It is less conspicuous and more ecological.

'Now let’s come to the way of making war. One peculiarity of the Ukrainian army is noteworthy: it does not pick up the bodies of its dead soldiers. All other armies in the world do not hesitate to put themselves in danger for that. To give a dignified burial to their dead is indispensable in their eyes. Not to do so would have disastrous consequences on the morale of their companions. So why does the Ukrainian army act differently?

"If I understand Dmytro Dontsov’s thinking, this is a preparation for the eschatological battle between good and evil. According to Scandinavian mythology, when a battle was fought by the Varegues, the Valkyries came down to the battlefield riding wolves. They decided who of the brave Vikings would die. Then they took their souls to Valhalla to form with them the future army of the "last battle". Thus, the men fallen on the field of honor were not victims of the fate, but were chosen for a glorious destiny.

"This sacred ideology refers to the "Prayer of the Ukrainian Nationalists," written by Josef Mashchak in 1922. It is taught and recited in the Banderist youth camps. It is at the center of the ceremonies of the secret Centuria order, which the Banderists introduced into the NATO armies.

"The war of the "Ukrainian nationalists" against the Slavs has therefore just begun."

"The link is worth exploring if only to view the short video of the Centuria Order (According to the George Washington University IERES report (2021), the Centuria Order has already penetrated armies in Canada, France, Germany, Poland, the United Kingdom and the United States).

"The West" is running out of political ideas, so the appeal of these weird fascist cults, which have come to the fore in Ukraine, should not be underestimated. It doesn't take much of substance to fill up a vacuum so the sort of childish mythology retailed by the Bandera fans is worth understanding.
A man who believes that dead men rise up and mount wolves to fight battles might seem like a joke, but when he is surrounded by a hundred or so more who subscribe to the same theory. And they are armed to the teeth and well paid by NATO it is easy to see why 'de-nazification' seems so important.

Posted by: bevin | Jun 21 2022 20:22 utc | 40

karlog1 @16

please do so and get your business "transferred" to some Siloviki.

Posted by: Olivier | Jun 21 2022 20:24 utc | 41

Republicofscotland @29: "If you mean by the above that Russia will occupy the whole of Ukraine..."

That is not at all what Karlof1 said. He said "...demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine...". Occupation is not necessary, and Karlof1 understands that. Russia has committed nowhere near enough troops for a hostile occupation of the Ukraine, but the Nazis and the Ukraine's war-fighting ability will be destroyed across the entire Ukraine nonetheless. Frankly, I don't even see Russia annexing any more of the Ukraine. Instead they will likely encourage the formation of a loose confederacy in the geographical borders of the Ukraine that joins the Russian Federation in a "Union State" like Belarus. This will be economically compelling because by then many Ukrainians will be using rubles for financial transactions and the Ukraine's currency, the hernia, will have become toilet paper.

Which raises an interesting point. When the country formerly known as the Ukraine is formally dissolved, what happens with the massive debt to the West it is currently accumulating? Perhaps they will offer to settle those debts in hernias (toilet paper) while the new federation of states transitions to a ruble-like currency? That seems like justice to me.

"...this allowed the Russian forces to progress in those lightly guarded areas..."

This is not an accurate assessment. The majority of the Ukraine's military had amassed on the "Line of Contact" west of the Donbass republics. That hardly counts as "lightly guarded". The feint towards Kiev just prevented the Ukrainians from reinforcing the invasion force they had positioned for attacking the Donbass republics until after they had been ground down to ineffectiveness.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 21 2022 20:25 utc | 42

karlof1 @34

i was talking when putin talked about deregulation, not denazification, at the economic forum. :o)

Posted by: polarbear4 | Jun 21 2022 20:25 utc | 43

Posted by: michaelj72 | Jun 21 2022 18:59 utc | 21

Symonian’s merits are many, she put RT on the world stage and proof of it is the way it is being persecuted, here in Spain it is blocked together with RIA, which proves the point. But one thing is to run a big operation and another one to show your passion and asking cornering questions. She knows perfectly well Kazakhstan’s history and the presence of a big Russian minority, and all the northern part of the country developed by Russians could become a Donbass if nationalist feelings are encouraged among Kazakhs which they are, it is the preferred imperial tool, divide and conquer, just like here in Spain, another country that will not recognize separatist entities like Kosovo in spite of all the pressure, or abandoning Latin America by advocating imperial policies even to our own detriment. The Algier-Morocco-Sahara deal is shameful, we’ve sacrificed our national interest due to impotence and politicians whose main purpose is to enhance their careers, if they lose an election here they can always find a place in a European institution with all the perks and first class treatment they get everywhere they go.

Posted by: Paco | Jun 21 2022 20:33 utc | 44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2KdW_qbMC8

Posted by: let it happen | Jun 21 2022 20:38 utc | 45

@ 38 Fooled Ya Albert Butt-Hurt in Babylon.

Now if it's a binding Agreement you want and Queensbury Rules then quit crying, it's so unbecoming.

Posted by: WTFUD | Jun 21 2022 20:44 utc | 46

Relax, guys, it is all sorted: Ben Stiller has met with Zelensky. Who is still wearing his lucky t-shirt. Ironically. Because he is cool.

Posted by: Rae | Jun 21 2022 20:53 utc | 47

Relax, guys, it is all sorted: Ben Stiller has met with Zelensky. Who is still wearing his lucky t-shirt. Ironically. Because he is cool.

Posted by: Rae | Jun 21 2022 20:53 utc | 47

LOL... On a similar note, I received an email today inviting me to watch Zelensky make a presentation to and entertain Q&A from University of Toronto Students.

Ukrainian President Zelenskyy to address U of T students. Join us Wednesday online. This Wednesday, the University of Toronto will have the distinct honour of hosting a virtual conversation between President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine and U of T students. President Meric Gertler and Professor Peter Loewen, Director of the Munk School of Global Affairs & Public Policy, will welcome President Zelenskyy before he addresses our students and participates in a live Q&A.

We invite all U of T alumni to watch this virtual event:

Wednesday, June 22, 2022
10 a.m. - 11 a.m. ET
Livestreamed on the Munk School's YouTube channel

... because he is soooo busy managing the dumpster fire in Ukraine.


Posted by: Opport Knocks | Jun 21 2022 21:08 utc | 48

Looks like Killnet is hitting Lithuania right now.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 21 2022 21:11 utc | 49

In a recent youtube with McGovern Ritter said that UK dead are undercounted because
a) that way the Uk-Gov doesn't have to shell out pensions to the families and
b) the commanders continue to receive (and then pocket) their pay cheques - courtesy of US taxpayer.

Russian commanders taking possession of captured command posts are going through papers left behind showing far higher casualty rates than have been published - which is no surprise at all to any here.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 21 2022 21:13 utc | 50

Given all the material incentives, if I were young again, I'd move to Russia and father as many children as my wife would agree to beyond three, and support them by having a business connected to the transport corridors.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2022 18:21 utc | 16

I was telling my son that just a few months ago when this whole business started and Russia became a topic of conversation but have been feeling that for a while. I might favor central Eurasia and get into city planning, community development, uplifting architecture like parks, squares, main boulevards, markets - something to help shape and inspire an emerging new civilization.....

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 21 2022 21:16 utc | 51

„How about this?
https://gpovanman.wordpress.com/2022/06/21/bridging-the-gap/„

Posted by: RoseRed | Jun 21 2022 19:06 utc | 24

This is a very interesting article, that applies the experience gained by the SMO to the Baltic blockade. In two sentences: They behave like that because they still are convinced that Russia will have no answer to these provocations. But once the answer given the world is watching exactly the opposite.

Lithuania signed its own death sentence, incl that of Lettland and Estland. SMO 2 is starting soon.

Posted by: njet | Jun 21 2022 21:17 utc | 52

Opport Knocks | Jun 21 2022 21:08 utc | 48

Western education now resembles badly programmed bots.Lira I think came up with the correct term for what it produces - System pigs. None capable of independent thought.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 21 2022 21:20 utc | 53

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 21 2022 20:25 utc | 42

"Frankly, I don't even see Russia annexing any more of the Ukraine. Instead they will likely encourage the formation of a loose confederacy in the geographical borders of the Ukraine that joins the Russian Federation in a "Union State" like Belarus. This will be economically compelling because by then many Ukrainians will be using rubles for financial transactions and the Ukraine's currency, the hernia, will have become toilet paper."

!! I think the territorial quotient is less important than the political and the political will depend upon so humiliating US-NATO that the finally get out of the area and the people living there finally refuse to entertain them any longer. At that point a new country - or whatever - can be put together. But first they have to break US-NATO's grip on the psyche and polity of the country.

"Which raises an interesting point. When the country formerly known as the Ukraine is formally dissolved, what happens with the massive debt to the West it is currently accumulating? "

Bupkus! The entity formally known as Ukraine will no longer exist and so all such obligations will vanish into the digitally printed ether from whence they came...

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 21 2022 21:22 utc | 54

karlog1 @16

please do so and get your business "transferred" to some Siloviki.

Posted by: Olivier | Jun 21 2022 20:24 utc | 41

What are the rules here? Is it allowed to spam using the name of a regular poster?

A troll is using my name to slander Karlof1. Not even able to write his name correctly!

Please, delete this comment #41.

Posted by: Olivier | Jun 21 2022 21:23 utc | 55

Posted by: Ghost of Mozgovoy | Jun 21 2022 18:20 utc | 15

"I find this Tokayev, who was saved from color revolution by Russia, quite duplicitious."

My guess is that he is toeing the Chinese line viz Taiwan. If Donbass republics can just declare independence willy-nilly, what's to stop Taiwan using that as precedent? Nada.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 21 2022 21:25 utc | 56

The AP also told us Iraq had WMD. They even showed Colin Powell holding a vial of yellowcake.
how’s that going?
Posted by: RTD | Jun 21 2022 19:28 | 27

I thought that's why the Americans still have bases there, they are still looking. Isn't that what George Bush said, "Those weapons of mass destruction have got to be here somewhere".

Posted by: Ironic | Jun 21 2022 21:26 utc | 57

@ Ironic | Jun 21 2022 21:26 utc | 57

maybe they can send in the same dutch stooges who oversaw m17.... of the dutch agency that foiled the russian plot @ 1... they are so good at providing for their masters back in washington... they are just so dang good, lolol...

Posted by: james | Jun 21 2022 21:28 utc | 58

Scorpion @51--

Kazakhstan on its Caspian shoreline was my initial thought years ago before Putin began offering homesteading and excellent additional support for families having over 2 children. But my present and last wife can't have anymore children, and we remain too closely connected to our families to leave, along with other lesser details. There's a Russian city where the Volga meets the Caspian at the same latitude as where I now live, Astrakhan, that's unique and properly situated for the sort of business I had in mind.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2022 21:35 utc | 59

If you don't understand Rusian, use subtitles, but take your time to listen to what this person from Kharkov says. This was uploaded ~7 hours ago. https://youtu.be/YB7FI43HMuE

Posted by: ostro | Jun 21 2022 21:40 utc | 60

Oliver @55--

Thanks! That's not the first time a troll has appropriated your moniker. I rarely bother with them anymore as there's too much to comment upon.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2022 21:42 utc | 61

Here's some videos from Kharkov, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcNn6FMxqWgOJ_eQbX2J2lw/videos
You decide what you get out of them.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 21 2022 21:45 utc | 62

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2022 21:42 utc | 61

Thanks to you too.

I like your comments very much, so that I could not let go this derogatory comment on your person. Hopefully B will approve my request and delete that #41.

All the best for you!

Posted by: Olivier | Jun 21 2022 21:48 utc | 63

maybe they can send in the same dutch stooges who oversaw m17.... of the dutch agency that foiled the russian plot @ 1... they are so good at providing for their masters back in washington... they are just so dang good, lolol...
Posted by: james | Jun 21 2022 21:28 | 58

To quote another really nuclear guy, Mr. Burns... "Eeeexelent..." idea.

Posted by: Ironic | Jun 21 2022 22:00 utc | 64

Ain't got enough censorship in Russia.

Posted by: Olivier | Jun 21 2022 22:02 utc | 65

Two points.

First, apart from karlof1 doing his usual wonderful job I am not sure how much analysis has been devoted to the Lavrov interview with the BBC. So far as I can tell, this is the sequence of events:

1) The Kremlin sanctions a slew of British journalists on or about 14 June. I remember reading a thread on the Saker, and one theme which arose was "Why not Steve Rosenberg?". Since I knew not who Steve Rosenberg was I did not think any further about this.

2) Two days later Sergey Lavrov sits down for an interview with - Steve Rosenberg of the BBC.

3) During the interview Lavrov says:

"I think there is no room for manoeuvre left in the relationship. Boris Johnson and Elizabeth Truss say publicly that they must defeat Russia and bring it to its knees. Come on, do it!"

Lavrov is sending a direct message to the United Queendom. Right, you're on.

4) On the same day the British imposed sanctions on Patriarch Kirill

Game on, as the British say.


Second, if anyone is interested, what I described twenty two years ago in my First Affidavit as the "Harlot's pack of wolf bitches in sheeps' clothing" has decided to go public on their own terms:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/20/britain-female-freemasons-women-grand-lodge-photo-essay

What do I mean by "own terms"?

I mean that none of the predatory lesbian cutthroats like Caroline Carter and "LEG" of Wandsworth Council feature at all. No, all of those featured come direct from Central Casting for "Jam and Jerusalem"

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0485840/


Fronted by a black woman, no less!

Woke Freemasonry!

You know it makes sense.

Posted by: John Cleary | Jun 21 2022 22:09 utc | 66

@ Olivier | Jun 21 2022 21:48 utc | 63

karlof1's and your contributions here are most warmly appreciated. Don't sweat the swirling swarm of five-eyed gnats.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 21 2022 22:14 utc | 67

"How about this?
https://gpovanman.wordpress.com/2022/06/21/bridging-the-gap/ "

Worth the read and comments too.


Posted by: osi | Jun 21 2022 22:18 utc | 68

The AP also told us Iraq had WMD. They even showed Colin Powell holding a vial of yellowcake.

how’s that going?

Posted by: RTD | Jun 21 2022 19:28 utc | 27

Probably yellow Columbian flake ... snort snort

Posted by: Bones | Jun 21 2022 22:19 utc | 69

In response to Scorpion@56,

There's nothing to stop Taiwan doing anything either way, except of course China's anti-secession law and, more importantly, how they would choose to enforce it. In Tokaev's shoes I'd be more concerned about setting a precedent for Kazakhstan, whose declaration of sovereignty in 1990 would need to be re-examined in accordance with his principled stance.

When you're the president of a 30 year old state, constituted primarily on the territory of 200 year old Russian settlements, established through a unilateral declaration of independence, it's not the most rational position to declare that territorial integrity should have supremacy over self-determination. Unless, of course, his future plans include dissolving Kazakhstan as a sovereign nation and reintegrating into RF.

Posted by: Skiffer | Jun 21 2022 22:34 utc | 70

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 21 2022 22:14 utc | 67

Thanks a lot!

#65 again from an impostor. Hopefully will be deleted as such and for the more than stupid comment!

Posted by: Olivier | Jun 21 2022 22:36 utc | 71

John Cleary @66--

As you know, there's a long, very negative history between UK and Russia that predates the Skripals, et al that's most likely rooted in the Royalty. We also must consider the banning of Russian English language media from operating as such, calling RT and Ria-Novosti State-run media, while denying BBC is the same. IMO, there's more behind the scenes, unrevealed evidence going back to the destruction of Yugoslavia of UK involvement in Color Revolutions, the Second Chechen War, and further training and recruiting of NATO's Terrorist Foreign Legion and OUN promotion we aren't privy to. Personally, I'm very hard pressed to call that interaction an interview as it contained very little of value aside from demonstrating Lavrov's ability to verbally joust.

When I began reading the transcript, I was struck by the odd nature of the opening question as I knew the answer--Was Lavrov consulted on the decision to launch the SMO--which any reader of the MFA and Kremlin websites would know, the answer being, Of course I was. IMO, Lavrov immediately knew the interview would be adversarial, since the initial Q was general information and aimed to support the BigLie that Putin's a dictator leading an authoritarian government. It's also quite probable BBC aired bullshit attempting to assert the 2014 coup and all that followed no longer mattered, which is what Lavrov tore into next, that the UK/BBC sought "to cancel everything prior to February 24 of this year."

How does one parse and report upon a bar room brawl? I linked to the transcript, reported the gist, and let it go. Plus, the TASS and NTV interviews were far more informative. That BBC/UK government decided to bar its citizens from seeing that interview also speaks volumes about the despicable nature of the UK/BBC. I for one hope the railroad strike escalates into a nationwide general strike but doubt that will have any real affect on UK's politics since Labour is just as corrupt as Tories and LibDems. As with every English speaking nation, the UK needs an insurrection that ousts the government and the 1% controllers; and in UK's case, ousting the Royals and making public all its works and assets. And while rioting, attack Belmarsh and free Assange.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2022 23:04 utc | 72

hope we dont wake up to w3

guys bless you all! <3

Posted by: Macpott | Jun 21 2022 23:05 utc | 73

@66 John Cleary

On the same day the British imposed sanctions on Patriarch Kirill - Game On

Hmm lets see... How to Win Friends and Influence People... page 25: "Attack the religion of another country! Can't possibly go wrong!"

Posted by: ptb | Jun 21 2022 23:17 utc | 74

bevin @ 41

Absolutely fascinating.

The two videos included in your link well worth watching. Auto-translate to English not working on first vid, the French is elementary and good.
Second vid is pure Hollywood with a serious production budget. And completely insane.

The hardcore Ukrainian nationalists I knew in 70s were perfectly ready to kill Russians, they were not this crazed. They were scary enough. This is why I don't talk to the local Ukrainians any longer.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 21 2022 23:18 utc | 75

Gomer Pyle time: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!!! "Ankara Hasn’t Seen ‘a Single Advantage’ to NATO Membership, Should Cut Ties, Turkish Media Says". OMG! That's gotta hurt:

In a piece on Monday entitled ‘The US Will Not Cut the NATO Bond, Turkey Should’, Guller argued that through its 70-year membership in the Western bloc, “there is no single satisfactory answer to what advantage we have seen.”

The columnist dismissed fears that the US could kick Turkey out of the alliance, despite recent calls to that effect in the US media, arguing that a “new NATO border” without Turkey along the Greece-Aegean Sea-Crete-Cyprus-Israel line would turn US plans to turn the Black Sea into a ‘NATO Lake’ into “rubbish.”

Furthermore, Guller believes, “NATO without Turkey means the disintegration of US plans for the Caucasus and, as a continuation of that line, the collapse of plans for its Central Asian targets.”

And there are other goodies like this gem:

"'Turkey should close the Black Sea, the Caucasus and the western gates to Central Asia to the USA, and be a part of the Greater Eurasian Partnership and the new world. The way to do this is for Turkey to cut its ties with NATO,' Guller concluded."

There's no indication if the author or his publication are aligned with Erdogan.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2022 23:23 utc | 76

even Lukashenko has not formally recognized Crimea as Russian

Crimea has been a Russian possession about as long as the USA has been a country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

Russia annexed Crimea in 1783

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Jun 21 2022 23:25 utc | 77

@ Scorpion | Jun 21 2022 21:25 utc | 56
If Donbass republics can just declare independence willy-nilly, what's to stop Taiwan using that as precedent? Nada.

Willy-Nilly? It was a bit more consequential than that, wasn't it. Lots of dead people.

Anyhow it's apples and oranges.

>Ethnic Chinese in a province of China, in fact "Republic of China," China going back 5,000 years, with a president who wants to "preserve the union," under conditions accepted by Beijing. The "ROC president" declared independence but her US chief backer says "One China and no independence from China."

>Ethic Russians who were the target of a US coup and then a failure to accommodate these citizens under conditions stipulated by the UN, and instead they were attacked by the comedian president of a young, patched-together "country." So these oblasts declared independence, recognized by their chief backer Russia.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 21 2022 23:49 utc | 78

"84% of Crimean inhabitants named Russian as their native language; 7.9% – Crimean Tatar; 3.7% – Tatar; and 3.3% – Ukrainian."

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Jun 21 2022 23:49 utc | 79

Unless, of course, his future plans include dissolving Kazakhstan as a sovereign nation and reintegrating into RF.

Posted by: Skiffer | Jun 21 2022 22:34 utc | 70

Well, you do make his stance look strange. I wonder if China is doing some heavy infrastructural lifting or some such in his country.

Or maybe he's just an ornery Mongol type?!

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 22 2022 0:00 utc | 80

This was reported earlier today……..

“Ukraine President, Volodomyr Zelensky, addressed the African Union Yesterday. Out of 55 invited heads of state only four attended the virtual session.” Africa archives

You would think he’d get the hint. Doubtful. This guy lives in la la land.

Glad to see Africa blatantly breaking away from the west.

Posted by: Alpi | Jun 22 2022 0:25 utc | 81

Scorpion @80--

Kazakhstan's first president Nursultan Nazarbaev is the actual intellectual author of both BRI and EAEU, meaning his nation is ground zero for the inauguration of those projects, not China or Russia. Few know those facts, but they are facts. Then there's the issue of what's required to keep a nation sovereign, which is where clashes in the post-Soviet space occur because of the former center-periphery nature of relations between RFSSR and all other SSRs, which was a type of colonialism and main reason why post-Soviet SSRs have had such a hard time developing, aside from Neoliberal interference. As Lukashenko pointed out at the CSTO Summit immediately after its Kazakhstan intervention, a nation's inner works must be made to work for the vast majority otherwise subversion and unrest becomes far more likely, as he knows well. Arguably, all post-Soviet nations need to develop as fast as they can to avoid destabilization by the Outlaw US Empire in its quest to destroy Russia--do note that relationship, the former SSRs are seen as mere pawns to kill the Russian King, which means they have differing POVs as to what should come first, second, etc. Interests overlap yet diverge. Soviets were told they were all members of one family when in reality there were Russians and all others, which is why what was called the Nationality Problem got so much attention by Sovietologists--nationalism was to be used as a tool to dismember the USSR and now Russia. All CSTO members know that yet the above reality of overlapping and diverging interests exists and must be managed.

Kazakhstan has huge potential. How to make the best of that has been a burning question since 1991, and well before then as well. AND its further development must be equitable to avoid further civil unrest.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 22 2022 0:39 utc | 82

There's no indication if the author or his publication are aligned with Erdogan.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 21 2022 23:23 utc | 76

We'll have to wait and see who if anyone goes to jail over it.

Trashing the Montreux Convention ought to cause property-values in Istanbul to drop like a rock.

Posted by: John Kennard | Jun 22 2022 0:41 utc | 83

John Kennard @83--

Thanks for your reply. IMO, the author's voicing the debate between factions that also relates to the Turk's Syria policy and Turkey's very long time spent sitting on the fence trying to reap benefits from both sides. But it appears that time is coming to a close and a choice must soon be made. Ten years ago, I predicted Turkey would join Russia's camp. We get to wait and see.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 22 2022 0:56 utc | 84

Alpi | Jun 22 2022 0:25 utc | 81 "Doubtful. This guy lives in la la land."

He lives in Moneyland. An actor making a fortune out of this gig. Bojo gave him Brit citizenship to give him the confidence to destroy the country he supposedly presides over. Zee seems to have his eyes on the money, but all he will get in UK is novichock, polonium, or some other exotic Putin poison for his final act.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 22 2022 1:00 utc | 85

@ MichaelJ and others who commented on this,

".....For his part, the most honored international guest at the Forum, Kazakhstan’s president Kasym-Zhomart Tokaev, did not mince words either when answering a question put to him by the moderator, RT editor-in-chief Margarita Simonyan during Q&A following the keynote speech: whether he recognizes the Donbas republics of Donetsk and Lugansk as independent states? “No,” he said, without hesitation though he was seated on stage just a couple of meters from Vladimir Putin."

I wouldn't give too much importance to this "No" answer of Tokaev at this point. Just recall that China has an anti-secession law and neither Tokaev nor Xi nor any head of state will accept the secession of any part of his country unless there are very special circumstances. So the rhetoric and the facts on the ground might be different stories. In other words, Xi and Tokaev and others will eventually come up with a formula for the Donbas and other areas of Ukraine who wish to distance themselves from Kiev. The price paid by the citizens of the Donbas and Russia gives them the last word. The law is written by the winners and China does not want Russia to lose. I think the politicos will adjust to the facts on the ground eventually.

Posted by: Richard L | Jun 22 2022 1:02 utc | 86

The German authorities are preparing to declare an emergency situation due to the situation with gas supplies

Die Welt


Posted by: SwissArmyMan | Jun 22 2022 1:04 utc | 87

Posted by: RoseRed | Jun 21 2022 19:06 utc | 24

Thanks for that link to gpovanman.

Posted by: Cortes | Jun 22 2022 1:22 utc | 88

re: Kazakhstan
The new world will be multipolar with every nation putting its own interests first, and not interfering in others, nor in slaving to some other nation. . . Kind of like people in a healthy community.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 22 2022 1:23 utc | 89

Tokayev made his comment in regards to a question that is way too early to answer. Nazabarev was calling the shots after he stepped down, because of previous unrest. His son in intelligence worked for the CIA and was fired after the recent protests.

Those protests were the result of 50% fuel hikes. USA and others quickly unleashed their protestors to storm government buildings etc..

Russia with csto came in and put a stop to USA " colour revolutions". The USA has many bio-labs in these central Asian countries and I fully expect to see them try to derail Russian and China. I don't see nothing working anymore.

Tokayev made it clear that Russia was a friend and partner in his speech at St Petersburg.

Above comment equating tokayev to xi jingping is so far from the truth. The only person that matches XI is Putin. They happen to be great friends, but not in the Zion/ USA mode.


Posted by: Karl luck | Jun 22 2022 1:32 utc | 90

The US has long held to an importance in Kazakhstan.

currently:
>The U.S.-Kazakhstan Business Council (USKZBC) is headquartered in Washington and leverage the U.S. Chamber’s Regional Office-Istanbul and the American Chamber of Commerce in Kazakhstan to help U.S. companies expand their presence in Kazakhstan through high-level meetings, policy advocacy, business missions, market intelligence, and networking.

>In Kazakhstan, USAID advances the U.S. Government’s Central Asia Strategy, which supports and strengthens the sovereignty and independence of Central Asian countries, individually and as a group; encourages regional connectivity between Central Asia and Afghanistan; promotes rule of law and respect for human rights; and improves the climate for U.S. investment — to foster greater regional stability and prosperity.

Okay I'm a cynic -- they're exporting US jobs to Central Asia.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 22 2022 1:57 utc | 91

Don Bacon @91

and right wing austerity. the chamber of commerce.

Posted by: polarbear4 | Jun 22 2022 2:02 utc | 92

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 21 2022 21:13 utc | 50

Russian commanders taking possession of captured command posts are going through papers left behind showing far higher casualty rates than have been published - which is no surprise at all to any here.

There are also complaints on Telegram channels in which territorial conscripts (the 60 year old men and the 18 year old women shipped to the frontline)complain about the fact that they have no officers as all the "leaders" have abandoned them.

This complaint, plus the high casualty rates, leads to the conjecture that the 404 military leadership have been filing false strength reports, pocketing the pay of the dead, and selling their rations on the black market.

Once the "leaders" have pocketed sufficient cash to permit them to depart 404 for the safety of the west, they do so.

This interpretation of events supports my prior conjecture that 404 is a kleptocracy. It is highly likely that many of the advanced NATO arms are being diverted to the black market, that western funding is being siphoned off into private pockets (don't overlook the 10% for Mr Big), and entire charade will at some indeterminate point in time suffer total and absolute collapse.

At which point 404 will represent an enormous vacuum, a stately black hole, and a humanitarian nightmare. I suspect the only state capable of addressing the myriad issues involved when the collapse occurs will be the RF.

There will be no battle for the other 60% of 404.

There will be no resistance, no underground armies. All the Nazis will have fled to enjoy the accolades of the west, free scholarships at the University of Toronto and all the other benefits to be showered on "brave freedom fighters" with swastika tattoos front, back, and forehead.

The RF will set about rebuilding the country into something other than 404.

Concomitant with the above there will follow a collapse of the west, a de-dollarization, the end of western hegemony, and the emergence of a multi-polar world order designed to meet the needs of agreement capable peoples everywhere.

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 22 2022 2:20 utc | 93

Posted by: Albert | Jun 21 2022 20:17 utc | 38

I hope this helps; Russia did not invade. They notified the UN that they were moving to protect the two new republics that has broken away from the government of Ukraine under international law. Russia was asked to protect two republics that had declared their independence from Ukraine. If you go back to 2014, you will find a lot of information. These two republics were being attacked by the Ukraine government and they are still doing so today. They killed over 14000 people. Before too long, the Uki Nazi's will be mostly exterminated.

Posted by: Tard | Jun 22 2022 2:50 utc | 94

re: Kazakhstan
The new world will be multipolar with every nation putting its own interests first, and not interfering in others, nor in slaving to some other nation. . . Kind of like people in a healthy community.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 22 2022 1:23 utc | 89

I would hope and expect that in addition only if those interests don't harm another country or people.
This is probably what you inferred and yes like a healthy community. :)

Posted by: K | Jun 22 2022 2:56 utc | 95

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 22 2022 2:20 utc | 93

"There will be no resistance, no underground armies. All the Nazis will have fled to enjoy the accolades of the west, free scholarships at the University of Toronto and all the other benefits to be showered on "brave freedom fighters" with swastika tattoos front, back, and forehead.

The RF will set about rebuilding the country into something other than 404.

Concomitant with the above there will follow a collapse of the west, a de-dollarization, the end of western hegemony, and the emergence of a multi-polar world order designed to meet the needs of agreement capable peoples everywhere."

I think you nailed it. Except the Nazis will be in more hard core Antifa riots and maybe in anti-deplorabke crimes, druve-bys and such.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 22 2022 3:22 utc | 96

Bevin 40

Thanks for directing us to Thierry Meyssan's essay on the Banderistas ideology.

If such has crossed the frontiers of Ukraine and the oceans, the task at hand will be formidable.
We are in fact talking about a new religion and if its beliefs are disseminated by songs, it
becomes very difficult to yank it from the subconscious as the notions get ingrained without
criticism by the recipient.

Posted by: CarlD | Jun 22 2022 3:45 utc | 97

Talking about fake news. RT and all the other totally non government controlled Russian media (*cough* special operation never a war) told us that Russia has absolutely no intention to invade it's neighbor.

How's that?

Posted by: Albert | Jun 21 2022 20:17 utc | 38

What militaries like to broadcast invasion plans early to the public?

Posted by: RTD | Jun 22 2022 4:35 utc | 98

Sushi @ 93
And as long as you are dreaming, would you also like a pony? :)

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 22 2022 5:27 utc | 99

NATO's price hikes. there a election palatable placard,

Posted by: hankster | Jun 22 2022 5:35 utc | 100

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