Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 19, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-90

Only news & views related to the Ukraine conflict ...

The open thread for other issues is here.

Posted by b on June 19, 2022 at 12:46 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Posted by: ianMoone | Jun 19 2022 14:17 utc | 19

"And as a commonwealth country, whose constitution was established on the Magna Carta, pursuing Lawful Rebellion seems the logical next step. Under Article 61, we have the right to enter into it if we feel we are being governed unjustly

Our "sovereign" and her govt are only there to govern us, NOT rules us. This must be done with the constraint of our common law and the freedoms asserted to us by such law. Nothing can become law in this country if it falls outside of this simple constraint. Article 61 shows quite clearly who really holds the power in the country - the people! We need to stand up, unite & take back control of our freedom before our kids grow up in a world without it

Certainly this is easier said than done & my reference to the Magna Carta - Article 61 is more of an example of what can/should be done rather than a guide. Rebellion, lawful or otherwise, does NOT depend on ANY document, but rather our collective assertion of that which already & inherently belongs to us: rights & freedoms..."

To me that is why the Reset business represents a potential break with the past in that basic rights, principally individual and collective sovereignty and mutual Law based on mutual consent, are going to get scrapped. I think this is significant and deserves more public discussion.

One can argue that this has already happened but I believe it has not happened openly and officially, only via ignorance and deceit. I suspect that one of the prime goals is to so fashion digital finances as to effectively bypass national sovereignty leading to a one world government scenario led by technocrats. At first changes on the ground level might be only minor but the possibility for abuse is beyond anything we have seen before except in totalitarian dictatorship like North Korea and ancient civilizations with 80% slave populations. (I.e this is not just more of the same, IMO.)

So we'll see how it plays out. Maybe the multi polar world will feature an Orient into growth, basic human rights and overall positive momentum whilst the West goes into a shrinking, techno-fascist model no longer able to dominate world finance and thus no longer able to feed off a cruelly managed perpetual growth-through-punishing-debt model, but still able to support super powerful elites within a smaller but still substantial sphere of 1-2 billion - or if some of the depopulation rumors are correct.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 19 2022 17:54 utc | 101

The only answer that comes to mind is that US policy makers know only one way to act, which is with arrogance and belligerence.

Posted by: Rob | Jun 19 2022 17:44 utc | 95

Despite heavy and mostly deserved criticism of Chomsky on this site, we have to be grateful to him for popularizing the analogy of US behaviour to that of a mafia Don. Mafia Don can never back down and appear weak, because experience tells him that vultures will descend on him in no time. So, any appearance of weakness is the same as defeat.

Posted by: Pagan | Jun 19 2022 18:12 utc | 102

Our gifts of artillery enable Kiev to continue terror-bombing the Donbass, as they've been doing since 2014. Only a surprise for the extremely slow witted, I suppose. My own tax-dollars at work: slaughtering Slavs until we bleed Russia white? That's the only apparent plan on the part of Kiev's crumbling backstop: terror-bombing to continue until morale improves...

“We have taken note of the intention of the USA and the United Kingdom to supply long-range artillery and multiple launch rocket systems [MLRS] to Ukraine. Leaving aside the entirely unconvincing explanations of such an irresponsible step, I would like to point out that the Kiev regime has already taken this as carte blanche to continue and intensify the shelling of civilian targets in Donbass, where after a number of recent defeats, the Ukrainian artillery was no longer able to reach,” [Russian Ambassador to the UN Vassily] Nebenzia said.

https://sputniknews.com/20220606/russias-un-envoy-says-western-long-range-artillery-rocket-systems-hitting-donbass-civilians-1096067712.html

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 19 2022 18:13 utc | 103

@ moabeobachter

There is a prof at U of Chicago who calls himself a maoist. He is associated with a group that #standswithukraine

Posted by: Platero | Jun 19 2022 18:17 utc | 104

Everyone keeps using the acronym "SMO". What does it stand for?

Posted by: teri | Jun 19 2022 14:29 utc | 25

As others have posted 'Special Military Operation.' To my understanding the significance of this is that although military force is being used, there is no declaration of war on foreign or NATO states, rather a rescue mission to prevent further civilian casualties in the two republics in Donbass who have declared independence but who are not recognized as such by either Ukraine or the United Nations. Russia - finally after 8 years of being asked - has recognized them and is now helping them push Ukrainian military out of their territory. Almost 100% of Lugansk has been reclaimed but still about 50% of Donetsk territory remains.

Of course there will be lots of debates if/when Russia begins to attack and occupy territory outside Donbass (have they done so already?), but right now attacks further inland are needed to prevent incoming attacks on Donbass. And since a hundred thousand or so Ukrainian military are massed inside or near Donetsk in heavily fortified bunkers, the Russians have the relatively straightforward task right now of bombing them mercilessly hour after hour, day after day, week after week until either they leave such fortified positions and exit Donbass altogether or their morale collapses under the stress of being constantly shelled and they lose the ability to function as military force-multiplier units.

So it's not a war per se legally speaking because one country has not declared war against another country, but it is a military campaign. Basically it's a form of civil war but with the added twist that the West is raising money and sending in large numbers of (slightly old) weapons to help the Ukrainian side which features a rather strange Nazi contingent seemingly answerable mainly to the US, probably via various CIA offices in the country where they also seem to be running various bio-warfare labs.

No doubt others here with far more expertise could explain better but it seems to me that often people are forgetting that this is not, technically or legally speaking, a war between nations. If it were, then all gloves would be off and we would have seen massive hits on Ukrainian infrastructure from the first week, like power stations, internet, waterworks etc. to essentially destroy the country's ability to function as such.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 19 2022 18:22 utc | 105

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Jun 19 2022 15:00 utc | 39

Thank you. Your language skills... impressive.

Re:

"At SPIEF, Putin himself said the war would most probably continue into 2023, that under no circumstances would the DPR/LPR be abandoned, and that Russia would continue the Special Military Operation (SMO) until it's goals are achieved...

Which are....

1. De-Nazification of Ukraine
2. De-Militarization of UKraine.
3. Return of NATO to it's pre 1979 borders.
4. Creation of the G-8
5. Creation of a trading block comprising friendly countries of EurAsia, Africa, & South America.
"

Has he or any other senior official spelled out more about 1 and 2, specifically is this directly implying military occupation of ALL of Ukraine including Galicia etc, or is this just saying that at the end of the day, whatever Ukraine is (or perhaps is not) will be demilitarized, denazified and no longer open for NATO exploitation?

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 19 2022 18:31 utc | 106

Well, I listened to to Ray McGovern and Scott Ritter on the Nixon guy's video this morning, and they seem to think the Ukraine event could perhaps drag on for some time.

I don't know anything much compared to them, but my intuition tells me that this thing is likely to be over and done with by about the end of July. I'm just kind of adding up my impressions. Those Ukro-Nazis must have been on the very cusp of annihilating the entire population of the Donbass just before the Russian SMO operation commenced. But I can't see how the Ukrainian Army can hold up against continual non-stop clobbering by the Russians.

The Great White Father of the West is gonna' have some 'splaining to do for sure. Afghanistan. Then $54 Billion dollars for nothing in Ukie Land, plus freezing, starving Europe. And maybe the Israel theater production gets all smashed up to boot. A hellof alot of 'splaining for all that.

Posted by: RKJoyce - Prophet | Jun 19 2022 18:40 utc | 107

If Lithuania does cut off railroad traffic from Russia to Kaliningrad Russia just might decide to go all out and triple the size of their force in the Ukraine and go full bore against NATO. I am thinking taking out Baltic states, Poland, Romania, and Bulgaria. Paul Craig Roberts formerly of Reagan administration says Russia has 10 million Army reservists.

Posted by: Lou Cypher | Jun 19 2022 18:46 utc | 108

U.S. journalist Seth Harp has posted an account of the battle for Severodonetsk from a U.S. mercenary fighting for the Kiev regime:

The deaths and injuries have been in vain because it is an absolute shit show out here. We had a 2 hour fire fight that later turned out to be against Ukranian special forces.. it is unbelievable what goes on here. If it was not for [redacted], I would be nowhere near this ridiculous mess.

I have seen and been all around the country and there is no way the Ukranians will win this the way they are fighting and utilizing their assets/forces. It is an absolute waste.

The media tells only one side. I am here. I see the reality. Bridges blown up while friendly forces are still on the other side, no communication between units, friendly fire all the time (just lost a British Sas sniper who was on his way to a position and got evaporated by a Ukranian BTR because no one said he was going).

They tell us we have support and then fire off 3 morters and call it a day. They give a guy who has never used an automatic grenade launcher and then tell us he will be our indirect support at night time from 1.2km away. I dint make this shit up. It is a fucking shit show.

The Ukranians are brave - Ill say that. As for the rest - I can only shake my head as good men die for no good reason at all.

Posted by: S | Jun 19 2022 18:48 utc | 109

RKJoyce - Prophet is actually blues. The trouble with the latter moniker is that so many think I have something to do with the corrupt Dem Party (Repugs are of course corrupt too.)

Posted by: RKJoyce - Prophet | Jun 19 2022 18:49 utc | 110

Ray McGovern and Scott Ritter
Posted by: RKJoyce - Prophet | Jun 19 2022 18:40 utc | 106

I'm only 30 min in (while I cook supper) and all I hear is a butt-load of smack talk. Nixon (involuntarily separated from weekly Sputnik chit chat) has nothing to say about Russian or Chinese government. McGovern ("normal alliance"? wtaf ) and Ritter (no-retreat "amphibious" attack on Taiwan) put words into the mouths of people they do not know and don't understand, because their only point of reference is the homicidal maniacs in US fed gov with whom they are acquainted.

Posted by: sln2002 | Jun 19 2022 18:51 utc | 111

I got the 'blues' from my nickname 'bluesneakers', given by my black friends because I loved to wear blue denim deck sneakers. Just so you'll know.

Posted by: RKJoyce - Prophet | Jun 19 2022 18:52 utc | 112

ianMoone @19

You are new here. Most of the barflies could not fathom why the Canadian trucker events had any significance at all. The subset who were supportive or enthusiastic was quite small.

You are correct this is a most unusual forum. Realistic expectations will make your stay more enjoyable.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 19 2022 18:54 utc | 113

Cont’d from #108

A day earlier Harp has posted a video from an “American source in Ukraine” (presumably the same U.S. mercenary who wrote the text above) showing wounded mercenaries being evacuated from Severodonetsk: video.

Posted by: S | Jun 19 2022 18:57 utc | 114

I'm not going through a zillion comments to see if viewers in the UK have yet been able to watch b's link to the BBC Lavrov interview, but you definitely can here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRTUxPKJEEE

Posted by: Tubbs | Jun 19 2022 18:58 utc | 115

Or, hopefully, they will think twice about escalation and decide that reasonable negotiations with Russia are a wiser course.

Posted by: Rob | Jun 19 2022 17:44 utc | 95

They might not be wanting escalation so much as prolongation, so if things on the ground in Donbass get too pear-shaped they might have continue the conflict by other means and perhaps in other locations (Syria, Georgia, Taiwan, Lithuania or whatever). The managed collapse needs cover of external bad actors to blame.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 19 2022 19:00 utc | 116

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jun 19 2022 17:21 utc | 90

Wow! A mushroom cloud....

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 19 2022 19:01 utc | 117

Martyanov is nostalgic for the Soviet past.
Posted by: xeen | Jun 19 2022 16:20 utc | 74
--------------------------------------------

Well, that's all he knows about Russia as such. He left the USSR or Azerbaijan in the infamous 90s, most probably Azerbaijan, if he left that region entirely as he says. He was from Baku, that was Azerbaijan SSR, in the Soviet times. The Soviet Union officially ceased to exist on 26 December 1991. Azerbaijan was a very hot area in those infamous 90s, with internal wars with Armenia, and military insurrections and so on. Most probably, there was a chance to get out, and somehow land in the US.

Baku is ~2900 kms from St. Petersburg and ~2200kms to Moscow. Baku is situated in the Caspian sea. In the Soviet times, the only other country that had a sea line with the Caspian sea is Iran. The Soviet naval force in the Caspian sea had any interaction with a foreign force, except for the Iranian navy. Caspian Sea is an internal lake, does not have any connection with the Black Sea. The naval force in the Caspian sea in the Soviet times was a border patrol force, and even today, Russia doesn't need to have big war ships there as they can't go out to international seas.

Of course, the border guard ships in Black Sea ports, Azov Sea ports are real tough ocean capable navy ships.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 19 2022 19:04 utc | 118

@oldhippie #112:

Most of the barflies could not fathom why the Canadian trucker events had any significance at all. The subset who were supportive or enthusiastic was quite small.

I remember it differently. There was a small subset (Tom_Q_Collins and two other posters whose names I forgot) who were calling the truckers fascists, Nazis, puppets of U.S. far right, etc., while most commenters were pushing back against such characterizations.

Posted by: S | Jun 19 2022 19:09 utc | 119

Why NATO?

NATO was established as a political and military alliance to save Western democracy from would-be Communist domination and aggression. It has always been an alliance underpinned by common values.
These values have been pivotal in maintaining Alliance cohesion for seven decades. They are also the strongest weapon NATO Allies possess to effectively counter Presidents Putin or Xi’s authoritarianism. . .here

So, with no more Commie threat, NATO is still needed to counter Presidents Putin or Xi’s "authoritarianism" . . .Biden might mention that in Saudi Arabia?

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 19 2022 19:09 utc | 120

ostro | Jun 19 2022 19:04 utc | 117

Best to actually look up his background than make dumb guesses.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 19 2022 19:11 utc | 121

Baku in the Caspian Sea, an internal lake.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 19 2022 19:13 utc | 122

Best to actually look up his background than make dumb guesses.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 19 2022 19:11 utc | 120
----------------------------------------

I lived in Russia in those "nice" days.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 19 2022 19:15 utc | 123

@ ostro

What the soviets did have was the caspian sea monster (WIGA)

Posted by: Platero | Jun 19 2022 19:15 utc | 124

Platero @ 103

Must remember that University of Chicago is an odd place. I once took a class with a young adjunct who was ABD at U. of C. who called himself a Stalinist/Maoist. On completing his dissertation he accepted a position on the Board of Directors of Pemex, the Mexican oil company. Jose Alberro.

Hyde Park and U of C are even stranger now. I work for Mearsheimer's physical safety taking the public positions he takes and walking around in Hyde Park.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 19 2022 19:19 utc | 125

Posted by: Caveman | Jun 19 2022 13:11 utc | 3

Totally off-topic, also not really suitable for O/T. Caveman, do I understand correctly that your band covers Mike Patton / Mr. Bungle songs? LOL, pretty cool. There's a great fan-made video for Pink Cigarette (that you apparently covered) and an even better one for Retrovertigo.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 19 2022 19:19 utc | 126

@ Tusky | Jun 19 2022 15:21 utc | 47 Re:

"Mini-nukes as in Beirut will be used"

I think you have come to the wrong place. There are plenty of websites that cater to people who are gullible enough to fall for science-fantastical click-bait drivel and this isn't one of them.

Posted by: MarkU | Jun 19 2022 19:20 utc | 127

Posted by: S | Jun 19 2022 18:57 utc | 113

Are we sure it's not Malcolm Nance (or is it Nantz)?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 19 2022 19:21 utc | 128

Apropos the "SMO", I offer here what a French general had to say for all to read as a first or to read again, like I did. It was posted here by Exile | Jun 19 2022 13:41 utc | 9

Retired French general, Dominique Delawarde.
Machine translation from French:
« Response to Mr Myard, on the US-Russia confrontation in Ukraine.
(...) I would like to come back to the sentence: "The intelligence provided by the Americans was decisive in countering the Russian advance, whose army proved incapable of adapting, due to military concepts from another age."
As a former head of the Situation-Intelligence-Electronic Warfare Division of the Joint Operational Planning Staff, I do not agree at all with this part of the analysis, which is based on an inaccurate "assessment of the situation" and which is, in fact, the conclusion of a biased Atlanticist position, aimed at making the Ukrainians believe that Russia is weak, in order to push Ukraine to resist to the end and to let it envisage, with Western help, a victory. Here is my argument:
Until proven otherwise, Russia has not declared a partial, let alone general, mobilisation of its forces to conduct this "special operation". In Operation Z, it has so far used only 12% of its soldiers (professionals or volunteers), 10% of its fighter planes, 7% of its tanks, 5% of its missiles and 4% of its artillery. Everyone will observe that the behaviour of the Western ruling elites is, until now, much more feverish and hysterical than the behaviour of Russian governance, which is calmer, more placid, more determined, more sure and more in control of itself, its actions and its discourse. These are facts.
Russia has not put its immense reserves to work (reserves that hardly exist in the EU). It has much more than a week's worth of ammunition, as it demonstrates every day on the ground. We are not so lucky in the West where the shortage of ammunition, the obsolescence of major equipment, their insufficient maintenance, their low DTO (Technical Operational Availability), the absence of reserves, the lack of training of personnel, the sample nature of modern equipment and many other elements do not allow us to seriously consider, today, a NATO military victory over Russia. That is why we are content with an "economic" war in the hope of weakening the Russian bear.
Let's turn to the quality of the Russian side's military leadership and compare it to that of the "Western coalition".
On 24 February, the Russians embarked on an emergency pre-emptive "special operation", preceding an assault by Kiev forces on the Donbass by a few days.
This operation was special because the bulk of the ground operations would take place in a sister country and in areas where a significant part of the population was not hostile to Russia (the Donbass). It was therefore not a classic high-intensity operation against an intractable enemy, but an operation in which the Russian steamroller technique, crushing opposing forces, infrastructures and populations with artillery (as in Germany during the Second World War) was impossible to envisage. This operation was special because in the Donbass it was more an operation to liberate a friendly population that had been held hostage by Ukrainian-Nazi reprisal battalions and martyred for 8 years, an operation in which the civilian population and infrastructure had to be spared as much as possible.
This operation was therefore truly special and particularly difficult to conduct with the constant conflicting demands of achieving victory by advancing and occupying the terrain, while sparing the civilian population and infrastructure and the lives of its own soldiers.
Moreover, this operation has been conducted, so far, at a numerical disadvantage (almost one to two), whereas the ratio of forces on the ground required for an offensive is 3 to 1, and even 5 to 1 in urban areas. Moreover, the Kiev forces have perfectly understood the advantage of entrenching themselves in the towns and using the Russian-speaking and Russian-loving civilian population as a human shield...
I observe that, on the ground, the Russian forces continue to advance, day after day, slowly but surely against a Ukrainian army that has achieved its general mobilisation, that is helped by the West, and that is supposed to fight for its land...
To question the quality of the Russian leadership, engaged in a very complex military operation, carried out in numerical inferiority, in which everything must be done to avoid excessive collateral damage, seems to me to be a huge error of appreciation. The Russians are also too often given intentions or war aims that they never had, just to be able to say that these objectives were not achieved.
It is true that NATO has never been embarrassed to bomb the civilian populations of the countries it has attacked (...) in the most total indifference of Western public opinion.
Before coming to the examination of Western leadership, for comparison with Russian leadership, let us note that it took NATO 78 days of bombing and 38,000 air sorties to force small Serbia to ask for an armistice. Remember that Serbia is 8 times smaller than Ukraine and 6 times less populated, and that it was being attacked by NATO, without a UN mandate, in a ratio of more than ten to one. Did anyone in the West wonder about the quality of NATO's leadership, which took 78 days to defeat its Serbian adversary with such a power ratio? Has anyone questioned the legality of this action launched under a false pretext (false massacre of Racak) and without a UN mandate?
I know well, having measured it myself in the US for several years, the quality of US leadership, which is also that of NATO and which, let's be frank, is not good, with a few exceptions. To try to assess the quality of their leadership and the chances of victory in a possible conflict, the US uses two methods:
1 - For high-intensity warfare, assessments are conducted at a large military camp in Nevada: Fort Irwin.
All the mechanised and armoured brigades of the US Army spend time at regular intervals in this camp for training and monitoring. I had the privilege of attending many of them. After three weeks of intensive training in this camp, with all the major equipment, there is a full-scale exercise to conclude the period, before the brigade returns to its garrison town. The brigade is pitted against a small regiment equipped with Russian equipment and applying Russian military doctrine. It is called OPFOR (Opposing Force).
Statistically, by the admission of the commanding general of the camp and director of these high-intensity military exercises, the US brigade loses 4 out of 5 times against the Russian OPFOR. Few US brigade commanders can claim victory over "Russian OPFOR" at Fort Irwin.
When asked about this strangeness, the camp commander always told us: "It's not serious, the brigade commander learns from his mistakes and will not repeat them in a real situation". One can always dream...
From my perspective as an outside observer, the failures of US brigade commanders were simply related to their training to follow patterns and regulations to the letter and never deviate from them, even when the situation lends itself to taking initiative and/or taking actions of opportunity, outside the rules. The "precautionary principle" or "zero defect philosophy" paralyses leaders, delays decision-making, cuts off momentum, and very often leads to disaster in high-intensity combat.
At Fort Irwin, this catastrophe is observed in 80% of the cases to the detriment of the US brigades. This is a fact.
2 - To train the staffs and try to evaluate the chances of success in a possible conflict, high-level staff exercises (war games) are organised every year. These wargames are also, in effect, rehearsals of military actions that are being considered. At the end of the chain, there are units of the three Armies to materialise the decisions taken by the US Staffs.
It should be noted that all the wargames envisaged against China were lost by the US camp, which perhaps explains the caution of the USA in their relations with China.
I myself took part in one of these wargames in the spring of 1998, which was none other than a rehearsal, before its time, of the 2003 Iraq war.
It should also be noted that wargames against Iran were lost by the US side, notably the 2002 wargame Millennium Challenge. That year, Marine Corps General Van Riper, who commanded the Iranian OPFOR, sank an entire US carrier group (19 ships) and 20,000 men in a matter of hours, before the US leadership realised what was happening (...)
In conclusion, I would say that one must be careful before evoking the insufficiencies of the Russian leadership. Perhaps it would be better to remove the beam that obstructs the eyes of the Western leadership before evoking the mote that can be found in the eye of the Russian leadership (...)
https://tinyurl.com/76y4x37y
General Delawarde also refers to the opinion of another general, Jacques Guillemain (in French):
https://tinyurl.com/bdd2sshk

Posted by: JB | Jun 19 2022 19:22 utc | 129

@ostro

RF internal waterways were connected by canals during USSR. Small warships can go from Black Sea to Caspian to Baltic.

Posted by: ptb | Jun 19 2022 19:23 utc | 130

Posted by: S | Jun 19 2022 19:09 utc | 118

Hello Mr. S (again). Were you calling my name?

There was a small subset (Tom_Q_Collins and two other posters whose names I forgot) who were calling the truckers fascists, Nazis, puppets of U.S. far right, etc.

You forgot to mention that supposedly the main grievances of the truckers were related to covid vaccine mandates and masks. And yes, in that crowd, there were a lot of rednecks, climate change deniers, fascists, Nazis, puppets of the far right, etc.

That is not to say that all supporters of the truckers fell into that category, but a lot did/do.

It is a shame, because on just about all other issues (Canadian foreign policy, Ukraine, Russia), I am fully aligned with your perpective and with those that share it with you.

Posted by: retiredmecheng | Jun 19 2022 19:23 utc | 131

Correction:
the French general post was by
Leuk | May 8 2022 10:38 utc | 268

Posted by: JB | Jun 19 2022 19:26 utc | 132

@Cabeman #2

I've been saying this over and over again for years. The reason the 'Trump is a Putin stooge' meme originally took root was because the neocons flipped out over his statements wrt US involvement in Syria. Thus they took that and went 'Trump is in league with Putin' because of Trump having a similar view to who was the real enemy in Syria to the Russians. Prior to this your average progressive urban liberal in the US had no animosity towards Putin or understanding why he was to be seen as the 'enemy'. That was primitive right wing cold war thinking! (Remember Hilary's "The 80s called, they want their foreign policy back" gibe to Romney? Now he is feted as having been 'right all along' about Russia) With the neocons it all comes down to Israel. I should also add we can't discount how much deep ethnic animosity is also key for why they are like this with Russia despite the thousands of ICBMs they have. The neocons are just Israeli nationalists who use the US military as a golem. Even when the targets of their ire seem to have nothing to do with Israel it has to do with keeping US military hegemony.

But Trump aroused such anger among such people that they glomed onto any suggestion for his election to be illegitimate and they basically became neocons on Russia. This had two effects, for one Trump started to give more weapons to Ukraine in order to prove he wasn't the Moscovite Candidate and two, it created a whole delusional world view among upper middle class Americans that the ever present 'Russian hackers' (Always responsible for any evidence that lead to narrative collapses) and Russia were a threat to deal with. These two things created a situation where senior Biden admin people were talking about taking 'revenge' for 2016. In a way Putin became, via their stupid absorption of neocon propaganda as a kind of surrogate for Donald Trump that they could take revenge on and kill. Thus you have the core constituency who would usually be helping to put the breaks on neocon bullshit actually egging it on leading to runaway escalation.

Posted by: Altai | Jun 19 2022 19:28 utc | 133

Next week June 29-30 is the NATO Summit meeting in Madrid.
Here's Stoltenberg on it:

Defence Ministers have just concluded preparations for the NATO Summit in Madrid, in two weeks from now.

Russia’s war against Ukraine poses the biggest threat to our security in decades.
So we must set out NATO’s response for the longer term.
At the Summit, we will take decisions to make NATO even stronger and more agile, in a world that is more dangerous and more competitive.
I am confident that the Madrid Summit will be a transformative summit.
With important decisions, not least in five key areas.

Significantly stronger deterrence and defence.

Sustained support for Ukraine and other partners at risk -
and I am pleased that President Zelensky will participate in our summit.

We will also decide on a new NATO Strategic Concept, setting out our position on Russia, on emerging challenges, and for the first time, on China.
And in this context, I welcome that the leaders of our Asia-Pacific partners will take part in our summit for the first time.

Last but not least, better burden-sharing and resourcing of our Alliance.
And the historic applications for membership by Finland and Sweden. . .here

There might be significant Russian advances by then in Ukraine (and perhaps other places) which would stimulate the discussions in Spain.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 19 2022 19:28 utc | 134

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 19 2022 19:11 utc | 120

Five countries have a sea border in the Caspian sea today; Russia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Iran, out of which Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan are still landlocked countries, as the Caspian Sea is an internal lake. Only Russia nd Iran has borders open to the international seas/oceans. But in the Soviet times, there were only two countries that had sea borders in/with the Caspian sea; USSR and Iran.

So, anyone, who says that USSR kept top level border patrol ships in an internal lake, well, is stretching it...

Posted by: ostro | Jun 19 2022 19:32 utc | 135

Posted by: retiredmecheng | Jun 19 2022 19:23 utc | 130

I respond to your allegation in the O/T.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 19 2022 19:37 utc | 136

Posted by: ptb | Jun 19 2022 19:23 utc | 129
--------------------------------------------

Sure, those you can buy at Detskii Mir...😏

Posted by: ostro | Jun 19 2022 19:37 utc | 137

@ Exile | Jun 19 2022 13:41 utc | 9

for me @ Passerby | Jun 19 2022 14:38 utc | 29 and @ c1ue answered the best..

@ Saggy | Jun 19 2022 14:24 utc | 23

re martyanov... the way i see it all these military pundits - ritter, lira, martyanov and etc. etc. - even richard steven hack ) they are only human.. if you pay close attention to any of them - they all have warts and flaws... i do too, lol... so - i suggest take all of them for who they are and accept they are not perfect...

@ retiredmecheng | Jun 19 2022 19:23 utc | 130

well, i never feel into that category... i felt the media and the political class were slamming the truckers unfairly... i never used any of those terms as you probably recall and i was on the side of the truckers as i didn't believe the media spin or the trudeau spin on them... i just never believed the spin and felt i had more in common with the truckers then trudeau or the msm writers... but that was just me... nice to see you are still around btw!

Posted by: james | Jun 19 2022 19:38 utc | 138

@ostro #117:

Caspian Sea is an internal lake, does not have any connection with the Black Sea.

There is a connection to the Black Sea through the Volga–Don Canal, but ship sizes are limited to 141 m length, 16.8 m width and 3.6 m draft. The Sea of Azov is the shallowest sea in the world with a depth varying from 0.9 to 14 m and an average depth of 7 m, and the Kerch–Yenikale Canal connecting it to the Black Sea is only 8.3 m deep. That’s why almost all ships in the Sea of Azov are “Volga–Don max” ships, i.e., ships capable of traveling to the Caspian Sea.

Posted by: S | Jun 19 2022 19:40 utc | 139

cranky crowd here today... troll wwekend team, try to relax a bit

Posted by: ptb | Jun 19 2022 19:41 utc | 140

Correction, my response should be to Posted by: S | Jun 19 2022 19:09 utc | 118

I'll add that note in the O/T as well. Apologies to retiredmecheng for the misattribution.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 19 2022 19:45 utc | 141

Saggy,
Your motive arent clean Wither.
Should not matter if Russia is communist or Christian.
Are you telling is you would support Nazis if Russia was a communist country and with no Christian belief.

Posted by: Twoface | Jun 19 2022 19:46 utc | 142

Rand - Overextending and Unbalancing Russia
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB10014.html

Bhadrakumar

https://www.indianpunchline.com/west-at-inflection-point-in-ukraine-war/
Paradoxically, the long war in Ukraine could only work to Russia’s advantage. President Putin’s speech at the SPIEF at St. Petersburg on Friday shows how thoroughly Moscow studied the western financial and economic system and identified its structural contradictions. Putin is adept at using the weight and strength of his opponents to his own advantage rather than opposing blow directly to blow. The West’s overextension can ultimately be its undoing.

European economic and political collapse in the coming winter is now being forecast a lot. As Bhadrakumar suggests, Russia would have anticipated/calculated Anglo/European reactions to the SMO. This go very slow approach to taking Donbas appears designed to 'Overextend and Unbalance' the anglo/european west.
What will occur in Europe is what the Europeans bet everything on achieving in Russia. Ukrainians were expected to keep fighting until an economic and political breakdown occurred in Russia due to sanctions and war losses.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 19 2022 19:46 utc | 143

When in doubt about the moves of your enemy, read Moon of Alabama.

Joe Tzu

Posted by: albagen | Jun 19 2022 19:47 utc | 144

@Tom_Q_Collins #127:

Are we sure it's not Malcolm Nance (or is it Nantz)?

Pretty sure it’s not him. His “fighting for the Ukraine” consists mostly of tweeting from his hotel room.

Posted by: S | Jun 19 2022 19:50 utc | 145

@132 Altai

... These two things created a situation where senior Biden admin people were talking about taking 'revenge' for 2016. In a way Putin became, via their stupid absorption of neocon propaganda as a kind of surrogate for Donald Trump that they could take revenge on and kill.

Thus you have the core constituency who would usually be helping to put the breaks on neocon bullshit actually egging it on leading to runaway escalation.

Yes that seems to be an important phenomenon.

Probably the capacity to "put on the brakes" was already lost before Trump, when the Biden and Clinton camps merged for foreign policy during the Obama Presidency, around the improbable connecting figure of Jake Sullivan. But now with the pattern described above, they're doubly isolated from any opportunity for change.

And then there's China. What would happen if after all this, the State Dept backs away from their tragicomical / self-parody level hawkish Russia stance? Noone in the world, not even the Brits or Poles or Australians, would be able to maintain whith a straight face that US had a chance to have hegemony in the same space as China. Doubt they have the courage to try to unravel that dilemma, they'll avoid acknowledging it as long as possible, which means maintaining the claim that they will eventually come up with a Boris Yeltsin 2.0 from somewhere to save the whole scheme.

Posted by: ptb | Jun 19 2022 19:57 utc | 146

Bolscheviks were and are scum.

Posted by: res | Jun 19 2022 15:49 utc | 62

Watch your mouth, assbreath.

************************************

Posted by: Paco | Jun 19 2022 16:07 utc | 69

AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!

Well said, very well said.

Posted by: Arganthonios | Jun 19 2022 20:01 utc | 147

Stoltenberg took questions after his speech.
. . .How about dumping on the Pope?
Thomas Gutschker, (Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung): Thanks a lot. Secretary General, Thomas Gutschker, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Secretary General. The Pope has made a few remarks on NATO's possible contribution to the war in Ukraine. He said that we don't know the whole drama unfolding behind this war, which was and I quote him somehow either provoked or not prevented. We all know the Pope can claim infallibility for his remarks. Maybe not for this one, but I'd be keen to hear your reply. Thanks.
NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg: So NATO is a defensive alliance and the war in Ukraine is President Putin's war. This is a war that he has decided to conduct against an independent sovereign nation. And what NATO has been doing for many years is to support the sovereign independent nation in Europe, Ukraine, train, assist, advise, and equip the Ukrainian Armed Forces. That is what NATO Allies and NATO have done for many years. This is not a threat to anyone. This is not a provocation. And that is what we continue to do. So, it is President Putin and Moscow that is responsible for this brutal aggression against the independent country Ukraine . . .here
. . .No mention by Stolty of Ukraine's aggression against its own citizens, and creating a NATO-partner military force that juts into Russia is not a provocation. . .Too bad Stoltenberg couldn't take that bank job this year.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 19 2022 20:01 utc | 148

Posted by: S | Jun 19 2022 19:40 utc | 138
-----------------------------------------

Check where is Volga-Don canal is, and where is Baku. That's more than 1200kms away from each other. Anyway, border patrol boats in the USSR in the Caspian Sea were...just border patrol boats.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 19 2022 20:02 utc | 149

ostro | Jun 19 2022 19:15 utc | 122

I couldn't care about where you lived or the Caspian sea. Martyanov was a soviet naval officer I believe, not an Azerbaijan naval officer. As I said, best to look up his background rather than bullshitting and imagination. Where he served, level of training ect.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 19 2022 20:02 utc | 150

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 19 2022 20:01 utc | 147

I often wonder what these remote-controlled suits think that "independence" and "sovereignty" consist in.

But it's an improperly formulated question, these people simply don't have the mental capacity to grasp such matters.

Posted by: Arganthonios | Jun 19 2022 20:05 utc | 151

@Tom_Q_Collins, 125
Yes!! I love Mr. Bungle. We were gonna do a Disco Volante song, but we didn't have a decade to figure one out. I had seen that Pink Cigarette video before, and it's definitely cool, but holy shit that Retrovertigo one is great! One of the reasons I love this forum is the knowledge of music that seeps in here.

@altai, 132

Damn, the points you made in the second paragraph really blew my mind. I had never even thought of Putin as a surrogate of Trump. I had only ever put them together in the Russiagate manner, where Trump is a stand-in for Putin, and never realized that this delusion could actually go both ways. The only thing I would add to your points in the first paragraph would be that Trump also was very loud about there being no need for NATO anymore. This was a direct threat to the only manufacturing we still have in the US, namely weapons.

Posted by: Caveman | Jun 19 2022 20:11 utc | 152

psychohistorian #35

Thank you for that Tom Luongo report. Strident and no messing about. Russia takes its place. These are extraordinary times.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 19 2022 20:13 utc | 153

@ Arganthonios | Jun 19 2022 20:05 utc | 150
I often wonder what these remote-controlled suits think that "independence" and "sovereignty" consist in.
Yes, and don't forget "democratic." . .All of these are concepts which aren't found in western European countries so they are only imagining that they are independent, sovereign and democratic, that the US/EU/NATO controls don't exist. Russian control, either. Germany especially is finding out how "un-sovereign" it is. The US twists them one way, Russia another, then the EU jumps in. . .

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 19 2022 20:17 utc | 154

I remember it differently. There was a small subset (Tom_Q_Collins and two other posters whose names I forgot) who were calling the truckers fascists, Nazis, puppets of U.S. far right, etc., while most commenters were pushing back against such characterizations.

Posted by: S | Jun 19 2022 19:09 utc | 118

I left Canada 4 years ago choosing to spend retirement - at least this first phase - in sunnier Mexico. Considered Florida, LA or AZ but really wanted out of North American culture. Canada in particular has the most controlled press and society generally of all developed nations (according to one study a few years back) so the hypocrisy of that was galling on top of having a health issue which made living through long winters inadvisable. So Mexico it was.

Was both surprised and delighted by the trucker protest. First, you'd think it would be the freedom-loving Americans who would have thunk it first. No, it was Canadians whose working class culture is very strong and very different from the milque-toast diversity-hugging nation depicted in their media, especially the widely followed CBC TV and Radio broadcasts. So it was great they got together somehow to say a resounding 'No More!'

And then second the Trudeau-Castrito showed his true colors, aided by his Ukronazi sidekick. Canada is projected as this uber-liberal, super-friendly, ultra-safe and kind place but boy did they crack down heavy. No bloodshed, a long ways from that, but the freezing of funds raised and limiting access to private accounts etc. was a real wake-up call for the country. Similar to the Trump effect in the US. You can still hate Trump but also have realized from his Presidency that America is no longer a free country. Same with the truckers: the way the government cracked down was so blatant that it probably woke up a significant percentage of the country.

Neat.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 19 2022 20:17 utc | 155

Caveman #2;

You are spot on about the relationship between the Maidan coup and Syria. The U.S. wanted to crimp Russia's involvement in Syria by taking away Putin's Black Sea fleet, based in Sevastopol. But Putin acted with lightning speed to secure not only the fleet but also all of Crimea--all without losing a single soldier. He then quickly rerouted power undersea power cables when Ukraine cut off electricity to Crimea and, in one of the most remarkable feats of the modern age, built in two short years the Kerch Strait Bridge, the longest in Europe, thereby connecting Crimea with the Russian mainland. Putin's and Russia's military genius is that they can move at lightning speed when needed and grind it out when that works best. And, no one knows but them what they're going to do until it's done.

Posted by: FHTEX | Jun 19 2022 20:20 utc | 156

"Become your own enemy" Joe Tsu

This one made me fall off my bicycle. So, are these collected somewhere? Published? Little Red Book cheap and for everyman? Leather, gold leaf, marbleized paper bound vellum antiquity for private libraries of nobs? Papyrus scroll? Veiled for eyes only word of mouth masonic koans? Website? Maybe, a sticky on MoA is in order?

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jun 19 2022 20:21 utc | 157

When the announcement was made in March 2021, the Army had around 76,500 regular soldiers."

I fail to see how that would stop them sending some sort of force, granted not a large one but neverthless, Nato is the sum of its parts however disproportionate they me be.

The DPR/LPR militias are larger than the entire UK army.

Now..... exactly what %%% of the UK army will be sent to Eastern Europe to be slaughtered by Allied Artillery/Rocket forces within 72 hours of their arrival.

For details on this... go to the latest Allied forces daily report of strikes and forces destroyed in Ukraine....

As I've said before..... get your head out of your ass..... the EurAsians are playing for keeps.... You told them... this is a fight to the finish....

They listened.....

Now.... they will finish NATO..... including those pesky Brits.... who simply can't get the message....

Capische????

INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Jun 19 2022 20:22 utc | 158

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 19 2022 20:02 utc | 149
--------------------------------------------
Learn a little bit about the USSR and then you'd know what the border security system of the USSR was. Also, find out to whom did the Marine units of the border troops in Baku answered to. You'd be surprised, when you find out that...if you find out that.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 19 2022 20:22 utc | 159

Stoltenberg went on about the "new force model."
"First on the new force model, we made significant progress both on agreeing the exact modalities, elements, of the new force model, but also we heard several Allies indicating that they will provide new national announcements to contribute to the new force model. I think it's a bit wrong if I now start to announce on behalf of those Allies. I'm certain that they will make the announcements well ahead of the NATO summit in two weeks’ time. But we know that already Germany has been out there announcing readiness to provide the extra support and also specific pre-assigned forces for Lithuania. And we’ve also seen announcements earlier from the United Kingdom. And then of course, we also see other allies like France, playing a leading role in Romania. Leading the battle group there. And also France participating in many other ways, for instance, also with some more presence in Estonia and air policing. So by the summit, I'm confident that we have both agreed the force model, which is the framework, but also that we have more forces, pre-assigned and delivered by NATO allies to underpin this new force model.". . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 19 2022 20:25 utc | 160

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 19 2022 20:17 utc | 154

What you seem to be leaving out is that workers in general in Canada have enjoyed more labor rights than in the post-industrial US. There's no "at-will" employment in Canada, women can take maternity leave, and there's universal healthcare - among other things. Not all of those come directly into play in the trucker protest convoys, but they definitely demonstrate a more empowered labor force that has higher expectations of freedom in the private sector than in the US and a (slightly?) less bloody history of worker revolts being crushed in bloody fashion.

The Canadian government at most levels has always been a haven for nazis and fascists in hiding (when they're not out in the open) and Canadian and trans-national 'capital' would love as well to crush any labor friendly, labor freedom movement(s) as they have mostly succeeded in doing in the USA.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 19 2022 20:26 utc | 161

[...]in sunnier Mexico. Considered Florida, LA or AZ but really wanted out of North American culture.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 19 2022 20:17 utc | 154 (emphasis mine)

Mexico is in North America.

Therefore its culture is a north american culture as it cannot be anything else.

Seriously, the gall.

Posted by: Arganthonios | Jun 19 2022 20:27 utc | 162

Thank you to all and sundry for the answer to my simple-minded question about the meaning of SMO. Now I know. I also found out it is what should be called an "initialism" rather than an "acronym", so there's that, too.

Posted by: teri | Jun 19 2022 20:29 utc | 163

Now that the U.S. is running out of Ukrainians it's time to feed the Lithuanians to the bear. After victory in Ukraine there's no way Russia doesn't take the Baltics.

Posted by: NewWorldDisorder | Jun 19 2022 20:32 utc | 164

Posted by: Altai | Jun 19 2022 19:28 utc | 132

"With the neocons it all comes down to Israel. I should also add we can't discount how much deep ethnic animosity is also key for why they are like this with Russia despite the thousands of ICBMs they have. The neocons are just Israeli nationalists who use the US military as a golem. Even when the targets of their ire seem to have nothing to do with Israel it has to do with keeping US military hegemony."

I think this is a very important point. So many are frightened of being labelled anti-semitic and so forth that there is somewhat of a taboo about mentioning it. But the truth is that most Americans and Europeans bare no animus towards Russians at all and all the seeming hate is cooked up by the neocon-Jewish controlled press. Yes, many will parrot the hatred but without the constant brainwashing they would have no feelings about the issue at all. And it seems that nowadays the art is so advanced that it doesn't really matter what the party line is, going against is simply not done and if you do express contrary opinions to those who buy into whatever then you meet immediate visceral hatred. That hatred is not about the particular cause (i.e. anti-Russia right now, or it might be abortion, or vaccine-status, or Trump or ...) but is some sort of knee-jerk reflex to not following mind-control orders.

It's all quite extraordinary especially to those who are not under the spell.

Lastly, what frustrates me considerably is that in conversations like this people use words like 'The West' or 'America' or 'the US' or 'Europe' etc whilst completely ignoring that what they are really talking about is often the concerted thrusts of the neocon/Israeli/Jewish influencers pushing their own agenda. And many of them are intense Russia-haters going back long before 1917 which was largely a product of such deep, tribal hatred. Indeed, they make words like US and Europe often meaningless, or rather the meaning of such words has been bent out of shape. Also words like Nazi, liberal, conservative, patriot, nationalist, communist, marxist, socialist. So many such words are distorted by not properly including the full context of what is being discussed.

Does this mean the Jews run everything as some believe? I don't think so (- don't know one way or another), but there are many key foreign policy and internal fifth column dynamics where they are intensely active with widespread deleterious effects and again because of pressure it is not permitted in polite society to point out that what is going on is not necessarily a 'liberal' or 'conservative' initiative, but rather a Jewish/Zionist/neocon one (depending on the context).

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 19 2022 20:39 utc | 165

Paco #69

That was a fine and bitter rant. I smiled at its truths and appreciated the need to flog a few heathens and demons. If you are thinking of growing oranges and figs etc, then do so soon. Beautiful fruit needs care and attention to get rewards.

Stay well comrade.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 19 2022 20:40 utc | 166

Those words from Stoltenberg are properly soporific. The top brass would rather have junkets than war.

Someone deigned to explain Soviet AD doctrine to me earlier.

Yes, I know about it.

Yes, obviously US assets are dispersed.

Let’s say of the 180 F22s only 50 are available to enforce a no fly zone.

That is still enough to knock any Russian place out of the sky at will. They are phenomenal machines. They are highly resistant to air defence.

Russia had a lost decade or even longer and the US were not resting on their laurels.

The USAF is not afraid of the Russian Air Force, nor their air defences.

They are afraid of Russian hypersonic weapons which could wipe out all NATO command centres and airbases - conventionally - around the world with no warning.

Posted by: Moabeobachter | Jun 19 2022 20:42 utc | 167

Posted by: Arganthonios | Jun 19 2022 20:27 utc | 160

One might think this if one hadn't spent much time in Mexico like I have. In fact the Mexicans do call USSians "norteamericanos" literally all the time and see themselves as separate from Uncle Scam's version of North American 'culture'...

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 19 2022 20:43 utc | 168

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 19 2022 15:31 utc | 54

I’m with you. I just don’t see what NATO can do at this point. From numbers I quickly looked up today, Russia has 18,500 artillery pieces. NATO, not counting Turkey, has 8,000. Who’s building more, right now and in production quantities? And I don’t see how NATO can even rearm at a reasonable much less actionable pace. That’s going to take a lot of steel, antimony, energy and manufacturing capacity. Europe doesn’t have anything it needs, the US has some but is incompetent at anything except graft. I haven’t heard any speeches about opening new steel mills or adding to the 4-13 abrams built each month in a factory nobody wants except politicians. Because until March the US swore the age of tanks was over.

Nato air power would damage Russia. But it wouldn’t be free runs. It would have to hope that Russia was satisfied shooting as many planes out of the air as it could and ruining the runways/hangers at Ramstein, because sending a carrier to the bottom of the med would be a pretty big deal. And Russia has built its military specifically to shoot down as many US planes as is possible with its formidable air defenses. If the US planners are hoping for dog fights, they’ll be disappointed.

NATO attacking Russia directly is a suicide mission. Today and we’ll beyond 2024. I don’t understand the belief that there’s some great force in reserve or even probable capable of changing things. Too many war movies and listening to DoD tell us how great they are?

Posted by: Lex | Jun 19 2022 20:43 utc | 169

Posted by: Moabeobachter | Jun 19 2022 20:42 utc | 165

Let’s say of the 180 F22s only 50 are available to enforce a no fly zone.

That is still enough to knock any Russian place out of the sky at will. They are phenomenal machines. They are highly resistant to air defence.

SOLD! Just put one of these 'products' in my online shopping cart! Now that we have confirmation of LMCo's claimed capabilities, I can't wait to test it out.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/f-22.html

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 19 2022 20:46 utc | 170

ostro | Jun 19 2022 20:22 utc | 157 "Marine units of the border troops"

I was wary of Martyanov's credentials at the start as he appeared to have only served five years or so aboard ship, similar to you. That I believe was on the open sea in a coastguard vessel. He has mentioned some higher training - staff planning something along those lines and I think a little time serving in that area. He has also mentioned the naval academy he attended.


Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 19 2022 20:48 utc | 171

@ Don Bacon | Jun 19 2022 20:25 utc | 158 with the link to Stoltenberg and the NATO "new force model."

In two weeks when they get together again I hope it is to negotiate surrender and dissolution of NATO

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jun 19 2022 20:49 utc | 172

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 19 2022 20:46 utc | 168

In reading about the F-22 Raptor, I learned that it's not even allowed to be exported to other countries. So I gotta wonder why Lockheed Martin, with an already captive audience among the "defense" sector and built-in customer base, decided to spend time on a web page advertising its capabilities. Like is there some USAF squadron commander sitting around with the spare budget to simply 'order' a few of them for delivery?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 19 2022 20:54 utc | 173

The US seems to be in a spiral of spending money faster and faster for military engagements and getting run out of town after causing enormous carnage and misery at an equally faster pace.
Where does it end?

Posted by: Jpc | Jun 19 2022 20:57 utc | 174

Posted by: Altai | Jun 19 2022 19:28 utc | 132

That is why Trump is such an enigma. He is more pro-Israel than most (which Ann Coulter would argue was because of his son-in-law Jared Kushner) yet he does not seem to be regarded as a neo-con.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 19 2022 20:58 utc | 175

Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 19 2022 20:58 utc | 173

Ann Coulter mostly misses the mark there. Trump's (official, as in once he entered politics) affinity for Zionist Israel can be attributed to Sheldon Adelson.

Here's a bit on him from The Intercept. https://theintercept.com/2021/01/12/sheldon-adelson-trump-israel-republican-party/

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 19 2022 21:03 utc | 176

blues #93
"I used to think of myself as somehow vaguely 'leftist', (which the corrupt 'Change' organization seeks to be seen as. I now regard them as fascisto-left Nazis, not so unlike the Ukro-Nazis that they support."
First of all, you need to know the difference between a neo-liberal Democratic Party mouthpiece. If you were a "leftist" you would have known that.
Second, your statement if you are anti-capitalist but not a socialist what are you? As far as I know, there is no "third" way. Capitalism, Socialism, Feudalism and Slavery are more than just economic systems, these terms tell you what class rules this or that state, it is the content of the state, and these four (or some mixture of these four) are the only classes known to humanity. So, my question is Mr. Blue, if you are anti-capitalist, as I am, then which of the other three state class contents do you propose to replace capitalism?

Posted by: Ed Nelson | Jun 19 2022 21:05 utc | 177

Any NATO expeditionary force would be to cover eve the Ukrainians rear.

They wouldn’t be there to march on Donbass.

NATO doesn’t have to win, just to drag out the destruction as long as possible.

The F-22 should damn well be good given the ticket price.

Posted by: Moaobserver | Jun 19 2022 21:07 utc | 178

Nobody seems to be talking about missile strike at the Ukrainian command post. What about the first signs of a very hot summer and even hotter winter in the UK where unions are starting to organise major strikes? What about Macron loosing the absolute majority in parliament?

Posted by: Milos | Jun 19 2022 21:16 utc | 179

Posted by: Milos | Jun 19 2022 21:16 utc | 177

There's an Open Thread for that and it is being discussed.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 19 2022 21:18 utc | 180

(a) the big catalyst in bringing the west’s wars to Russia was this 2013 violation of the Wolfowitz Doctrine. ..
(b)It’s JavaScript. I’m majoring in Film Scoring though, so it’s not exactly the same thought processes ...
Posted by: Caveman | Jun 19 2022 17:00 utc | 86
Posted by: Altai | Jun 19 2022 19:28 utc | 132

(a) Some say, every generation learns for itself. The origins and wikiwtf tombstone memorializing PNAC organizing principles in US fed gov is one such lesson. I'd rather you did not put Wolfowitz on that pedestal which constantly assumes new forms, say, an regular "The Daily Show" guest or Lincoln Brigade "memes". 1992 DPG; 1996 Neo-Reaganite Doctrine; 1998: E. Abrams, R. Armitage, W. Bennett, J Bergner, J. Bolton, P. Dobiransky, F. Fukuyama, R. Kagan, Z. Khalilzad, W. Kristol, R. Perle, P Rodman, D. Rumsfeld, W. Schneider, V. Weber, P. Wolfowitz, R. Woolsey, R. Zoellick; 2001 Bush Doctrine: + R. Allen, G. Bauer, J. Bell, R. Boshwitz, E. Cohen, S. Cropsey, M. Decter, T. Donnelly, N. Eberstadt, H. Fradkin, A. Friedberg, F. Gaffney, J. Gedmin, R.M. Gerecht, C. Hill, B. Jackson, E. Jacobs, M. Joyce, D. Kagan, J. Kirkpatrick, C. Krauthammer, J. Lehman, C. May, M. Peretz, N. Podhoretz, S. Rosen, R. Scheunemann, G. Schmitt, R. Schult, H. Sokolsi, S. Solarz, L. Wieseltier, M. Wittman; National Security Strategy; USA Patriot Act; 2002 Bybee Doctrin;2004 Pax Americana; 2008 Global Centre for R2P.

So. "Catalyst" does not mean what you think it means. Neither does "the west" or "violation." That engine was running decades before Russia stepped into the road.

(b) Back in the stone age, a programmer's greatest challenges was mastery of (i) mathematics-properties of numbers + formula alias algorithm alias rules (ii) typing accuracy (iii) manipulating multiple language syntax libraries. An app (GUI pseudo-compiler) like npm automates most of those skills. My unsolicited advice for your journey is, abandon the notion that composition is "not exactly the same thought processes". Attention to notation for music is applicable to CS.
low-level machinge/assembly code, eg. C, java, python
high-level eg. python, javascript, HTML

Posted by: sln2002 | Jun 19 2022 21:21 utc | 181

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 19 2022 20:48 utc | 169
-------------------------------------------------------
I was wary of Martyanov's credentials at the start as he appeared to have only served five years or so aboard ship...That I believe was on the open sea in a coastguard vessel....

Do you know, to which soviet organisation was answerable for, or actually owned, all border security of the USSR, including the coastguard?

By the way, he didn't study in a naval academy, but a naval high(er) school - Caspian Higher Naval Red Banner School. S. M. Kirova (his link, not mine). That school was disbanded by the President of Azerbaijan in 3.07.1992.

I found his blog practically at the same time as I found MoA, in the last quarter of 2021, when I was looking for interesting articles/blogs in the West. I usually look at his blog in the evenings (these days quite rarely). In to the 1st month of SMO, I don't look at all those blogs from the West, the only one I look in everyday is MoA -- I like to read the comments here. Most of the commentators are from the US, and they are against their regime, somewhat funny.

By the way, I am not a seaman of any kind, but I know Soviet/Russia by being there.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 19 2022 21:26 utc | 182

Putin knows that the earliest he might achieve his objectives is 2023. That is unlikely. Unless he modifies his December ultimatum, 2023 will be the year that the war with Poland and the Baltic Republics begins, with a southern front in Romania.
This war will go on for years. For all the advances in warfare—fighting through entrenched defenders has always been a near insurmountable obstacle. The reality is , who understands the strategy of indirect approach will succeed. So far Putin has not demonstrated that he is particularly adept.

Posted by: Wobblie | Jun 19 2022 21:27 utc | 183

@176
re: they just have to drag out the destruction as long as possible

The marvelously self-confident folks in Washington seem to think that would help them. Getting Europe and Russia to fight and neutralize each other was the grand premise of provoking this conflict.

However, the other NATO powers - the actual international-political core of the continental alliance - are already feeling the early signs of economic catastrophe, after just 3.5 months. A year of it would be recoverable, despite everything. Multiple years not so - European high end industries would get radically downsized.

And who do you think is actually ready to quickly and cost effectively take their place where Euro firms get forced out of the lucrative markets that made the EU a world class economic player? North America, or East Asia (ie China)?

Posted by: ptb | Jun 19 2022 21:33 utc | 184

Posted by: Arganthonios | Jun 19 2022 20:27 utc | 160

"Therefore its culture is a north american culture..."

Fair point. OK: North American Anglo culture.... or simply 'US or Canadian culture' (they are quite different but...)

Pardon my sloppy English!

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 19 2022 21:36 utc | 185

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 19 2022 20:43 utc | 166

"One might think this if one hadn't spent much time in Mexico like I have. In fact the Mexicans do call USSians "norteamericanos" literally all the time and see themselves as separate from Uncle Scam's version of North American 'culture'..."

Very true and come to think of it that's why I used the phrase myself. I've learned not to call the States 'America' because for Latin Americans North and South it's all America. But I do tend now to think of North America as the US-Canada part even though it's technically incorrect....

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 19 2022 21:39 utc | 186

Pardon my sloppy English!
Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 19 2022 21:36 utc | 183

yessss, western hemisphere, america, whatever.

Posted by: sln2002 | Jun 19 2022 21:41 utc | 187

@182;

Well if Melanchon and co can change the terms of the debate..

From Levi on TG;

“Donetsk. Today, enemy artillery was not so as actively shelling the residential area, and here's why.

The positions of the enemy in the fortified areas were first hit by "Mr Kalibr" and then at night, around 03:00 Moscow time, aviation of the Russian Aerospace Forces began to strike the main and reserve positions of the enemy, strong points, warehouses in the Avdeevka fortified area for over 2 hours.

The Donetsk residents felt the results of this response already on June 19: the shelling of the city did not go beyond the „usual“ of past years

The intensity of enemy fire has drastically decreased.

It‘s too soon to say this will last but it sure is a great step in the right direction.”

Posted by: Moabeobachter | Jun 19 2022 21:42 utc | 188

A quiet and sober assessment is available at Military Summary.

Here you will get some detailed information from a Belarus resident without the macho rants.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 19 2022 21:43 utc | 189

PNAC origin story according to CHENEY DOCTRINE

Posted by: sln2002 | Jun 19 2022 21:44 utc | 190

Posted by: ianMoone | Jun 19 2022 14:17 utc | 19

Hello Ian, and welcome to MOA.

This is the reality for Canada.

EVERY civil servant MUST take the following oath (or affirmation)

I, [name], do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors. So help me God.[3]


I really cannot understand why so many people will not accept that this oath means what it says, but I get no end of grief here simply for reciting the facts.

I KNOW it means what it says. Otherwise I'd not have had to fight her these last twenty-eight years.

Queen Elizabeth II is NOT a nice woman. Instead she has the entire MSM telling us all how wonderful she is.

As you can see on Ukraine, if the MSM is united on a lie it is VERY difficult to challenge that lie.

One affidavit, from twenty two years ago

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/03/open-thread-2022-19.html?cid=6a00d8341c640e53ef0282e1477ebf200b#comment-6a00d8341c640e53ef0282e1477ebf200b

Posted by: John Cleary | Jun 19 2022 21:48 utc | 191

Moaobserver #176

The F-22 should damn well be good given the ticket price.

Sounds like you have been buying expensive bad shit from your candyman.

The F35 is likely even better perhaps? Man they are junk and without a base left to return to they are roadside scrap to be bulldozed aside to clear the way for traffic.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 19 2022 21:48 utc | 192

@sln2002, 179

So it seems like I have my event right, the 'interference,' if you will, of Russia in Syria, I'm just using the wrong document for evidence of that being the case? Either way, thank you for the links, some serious stuff in there.

Posted by: Caveman | Jun 19 2022 21:54 utc | 193

" Die F-22 sollte angesichts des Ticketpreises verdammt gut sein. "
Warum wohl werden diese " so guten " nicht offiziell Verkauft....wo man doch sonst auf Gewinn aus ist ?
Warum prahlt man nicht mit Testergebnissen....
Warum hat die F35 noch ca 812 Fehler und muss so oft Notlanden ?

Posted by: ma | Jun 19 2022 21:58 utc | 194

ostro | Jun 19 2022 21:26 utc | 180

You were correct about the Caspian. Found this at the Saker site.

I graduated from the Caspian Higher Naval Red Banner Academy, named after Sergei Kirov in Baku, and studied from 1980 through 1985, Navigation Faculty. I have a graduate degree of Specialist in Gyro-Inertial Navigational Complexes of Naval Strategic Missile Systems, focus on SSBN of pr. 667B-BD (NATO Delta I and II class). The so called VUS (military-registration specialty) is called Specialty Naval Navigation. Soviet naval academies provided graduate degree in engineering and undergraduate in military sciences. Every graduate was also prepared for tactical command of naval infantry (marines). Very few took this career path or, for that matter, in Naval Missile-Carrying Aviation (MRA). Most of us ended either on submarines or surface navy combatants, or, in case of my academy, up to a third of graduates ended up on the ships of what then was called Naval Units of Border Guards of KGB USSR, today known as a Coast Guard of FSB. In Soviet times it was much more militarized due to Soviet Coast Guard getting many ships in naval configuration with all that this entailed—from sensor suites to weapon systems. I chose Coast Guard path. I served through 1990 on both ships and staff position in the separate brigade which was based in Baku, on Caspian Sea. It was this location which became a violent place from 1988 to 1990 which helped in precipitating the collapse of the Soviet Union. Those were dramatic and violent events which require a separate discussion. I finished my service by 1990 due to health problems and in 1991 was left not only without any pension, for which I didn’t have enough service census, but without a country when the USSR collapsed. I, as many millions of my peers, both military professionals and civilians, became aliens in what used to be the Soviet Union, which now was split into fifteen different countries. It was a life altering experience in every sense, including seeing what Russia (we couldn’t stay in Baku anymore) was turning into in 1990s, when undergoing wholesale robbery and criminal revolution. I, being a decent English speaker, opened a commodities business with the US and eventually started to visit the United States for business reasons. After observing live on CNN how Yeltsin blew up in 1993 [the Russian] White House and had drowned the uprising in blood it became patently clear that for me and my family there was no place anymore [for us] in that Russia. By then we all had enough. The 1990s did become a catastrophe for Russia and Russia still lives and overcomes the consequences of that disaster.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jun 19 2022 22:01 utc | 195

Warum liegt die US Flugzeug Industrie gerade brach ? Kein Titan....F-22 und F35 sind ohne Titan nur Schrott

Posted by: ma | Jun 19 2022 22:01 utc | 196

Milos #177

You asked for information on the missile attack on the nazi command post. Here is the good news from Military Summary.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 19 2022 22:01 utc | 197

The F22 is not sold because it’s capabilities are reserved for the US.

The F35 is a totally different type of aircraft and a boondoggle.

They don’t need more titanium, they have already built all the F22s they need.

This is such common knowledge that it being news to anyone here makes me doubt anything they have to say on military-technical matters.

Posted by: Moabeobachter | Jun 19 2022 22:08 utc | 198

When I read Sanders that new UK general, I can not help but feel that he is representative of a type of delusional thinking which is to be found in the new found bellicosity of the collective West. It has long been the ambition of the West to plunder Russia. It is, and always is, about the very resources which Russia possesses and which is blunting the impact of their sanctions.

Let us not forget that the British army could not 'defeat' in military terms the IRA over three decades in Northern Ireland. It is chronically under-funded, and I understand numerically it can be contained in its entirety into a medium sized football stadium. However that reality check aside, I do believe the collective force of NATO, in particular the neo con elements currently leading the charge, are serious in intending to "take on" Russia, to prompt regime change and the installation of a pro-western pawn, such as Navalny, or some other cut out, to return to the plunder of Russia which was in full swing up until Yeltsin left office.

The main impediment to this bellicosity and evil intent,apart from the strength of Russia's armed forces and the undiminished patriotism of its peoples, is the fact that Russia, despite depictions of isolation in the Western academic /media circles, is NOT alone, it has strategic alliances and connections with many countries, particularly China, but also Iran, South Africa,and a number of other nations. Of course the close connection to China is the most important strength,and I can see no logical reason why that will not in fact be strengthened further in the years ahead.
The visceral hatred of Russia runs very deep in various elites in the West. I am also convinced, as an Orthodox Christian, that dark spiritual forces, are at play here too. The revival of Orthodox Christianity in Russia is a source of great hatred in the dark forces which control the west ideologically and spiritually, and the very real 'forces of darkness' deeply desires to conquer Russia not only for its economic resources, but also to quell its defiance of the atheistic, hedonistic, and ultimately empty culture which now epitomises the West. This is not just an economic and military struggle, underlying this is a profound spiritual war.

Posted by: Gabriel in Ireland | Jun 19 2022 22:08 utc | 199

@Gabriel @197

More of this morbid Duginism!

The Greeks have been Orthodox just as long and there doesn’t seem to be any great Western hatred towards them in the West, is there?

Spiritual malaise is the natural outcome of commodification of everything due to declining rates of profit and the use of personal computation as social control in the interests of finance capital.

Identify politics and physical isolation preclude commonality and solidarity. No mystery.
What did Gramsci say?

Posted by: Moaobserver | Jun 19 2022 22:15 utc | 200

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