Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 14, 2022

Ukraine - Killing Surrendering Soldiers, Shelling Civilians

At 8:30 UTC today I checked the priorities of the day on major U.S. news websites.

  • On the New York Times homepage the word "Trump" appeared 10 times, "Ukraine" appeared 5 times.
  • On the Washington Post homepage the word "Trump" appeared 12 times, "Ukraine" appeared 5 times.
  • On the Wall Street Journal homepage the word "Trump" appeared 9 times, "Ukraine" appeared 3 times.

The Google Trends graph for Ukraine has fallen to near zero.


bigger

This is a problem because it takes pressure off the Biden administration to negotiate with Russia over Ukraine and the future security architecture in Europe.

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Today's daily 'clobber list' by the Russian Ministry of Defense includes an additional chapter taken from the verbal briefing:

I would like to note that in recent weeks, incidents involving the shooting of Ukrainian servicemen in the back by nationalist units have become more frequent in areas of military operations.

Thus, after a fire preparation for an attack by Russian troops near Novomikhailovka in Donetsk People's Republic, more than 30 servicemen of the 25th Battalion of the 54th Mechanized Brigade of the AFU decided to lay down their arms and surrender.

Ukrainian servicemen occupying a stronghold near Zvioroferma asked the Russian unit command via radio to cease fire and provide a corridor for exit.

Around 10 p.m., AFU servicemen with white flags began moving towards Russian positions.

At that moment, a Ukrainian nationalist barrier unit arrived at the stronghold in armored vehicles and opened crossfire in the back on the servicemen of the 54th Brigade of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

As a result of this shooting, 32 Ukrainian servicemen were fatally wounded and killed.

This incident, as well as many others like it, clearly demonstrates that amid growing military failures and demoralization of Ukrainian troops, the Kiev nationalist regime is trying to stop the retreat and surrender of its units by punitive actions of barrier squads.

I have seen no evidence that supports the details of the above incident. But there have been public reports that somewhat prominent people who are opposed to the war or criticize the Zelenski regime get picked up the Ukrainian SBU (the former KGB) or some 'nationalist', ie. fascist  goons to then vanish. It is thereby not astonishing to read that similar events, on a likely larger scale, are happening at the frontline of the war.

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The Ukrainian artillery is said to fire only 6,000 rounds per day for lack artillery ammunition. Yesterday 300 projectiles were fired by the Ukrainian army or by 'nationalists' onto civilian areas of 'rebel' held city of Donetsk. There were at lest 7 dead and 22 wounded. Graham Phillips provides a video report of the impacts and damage (vid). To use 5% of the daily ammunition ration to terrorize civilians in Donetsk is not only despicable but dumb as those artillery troops will now receive intensified attention they deserve.

Levi @Levi_godman - 11:42 UTC · Jun 14, 2022
❗️The DPR asks Russia to use additional Iskanders and aircraft to destroy the artillery of the Armed Forces of Ukraine

Meanwhile Russia is providing a humanitarian corridor for civilians and surrendering Ukrainian troops who leave the Azot chemical plant in Severodonetsk. The scheme is similar to the corridors at the Azov steelworks in Mariupol where it worked well.

Posted by b on June 14, 2022 at 14:59 UTC | Permalink

Comments
« previous page

@
“ I've often wondered how, exactly, the MSM outlets are signaled by the CIA.
Posted by: SingingSam | Jun 14 2022 16:30 utc | 31 “

It’s called the ‘Propaganda Multiplier’. I’ll let you look it up yourself but if you can’t find it, ask again and will point you to resources.

The News Agencies are controlled and often have ‘ex’ MI/SIS directors on the boards.
The content is daily controlled and distributed from there.

Most new media have specific ‘journalist’ stenographers who basically with a slight re-wording, as long as the buzz words and phrases are left in, have the ‘story’ published with their bylines on them.
With the contraction of ownership of the MSM to a handful of oligarchs, the control of ‘investigative journalism’ has been fully hosed down.

The stenographers have guaranteed careers which turn them into millionaires working for the billionaires. They don’t rock the boat. These who do are ostracised and ‘never work’ again.
Examples abound. Some are imprisoned. Some are even killed.

Over a period of time status al analysis will show a remarkable co skate the number of articles per media outlet - which is meta analysis that proves that the MSM had bee controlled for a VERY LONG TIME.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Jun 15 2022 10:59 utc | 401

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 14 2022 22:10 utc | 232 -- "That tells me that over the next 21 years, Russia and China have worked together to ensure no Thucydides Trap arises, that the Outlaw US Empire be allowed to fade away as quietly as possible--with a whimper, not a bang.... it's become extremely clear that Russia and China know far more about their adversary than it knows about them...."

"Speaking from a position of strength obviates
the need to know your adversary." -- Brandon Tzu

Posted by: kiwiklown | Jun 15 2022 11:01 utc | 402

I don't know how I'm going to cope.

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 15 2022 10:17 utc | 393
--------------------------

You are not the only one, the demented Joe also cannot cope... 😋

Posted by: ostro | Jun 15 2022 11:50 utc | 403

Posted by: DunGroanin | Jun 15 2022 10:59 utc | 397

You are correct.

But even the oligarchs must understand that adversary journalism has a helpful function for them. Group think suppresses those who give reason to rethink your own actions, who are the foundation to correct a wrong decision. If you only have "yes men", corrections are less likely, which in turn makes the downfall for the oligarchs more likely. You can see what happens when you suppress critical voices regarding the Russian sanctions: Inflation and rising commodity prices that hurt the Western oligarchs who rely on cheap supplies. Rising energy and food costs make their toppeling more likely. For them, it doesnt make any sense to let politicians keep doing what they are doing. An adversary press would help to correct the course of action.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Jun 15 2022 11:50 utc | 404

It seems too late for Zelensky to stop hostilities, giving up claims to the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics and, of course, Crimea. It seems that now Russia will gain control over the entire Black Sea coast and the land bridge in Transnistria. The operation could take another year. After that, Ukraine, which does not have access to the sea, will fall apart and will no longer exist.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 15 2022 11:56 utc | 405

Joe6pack, 393:

> I don't know how I'm going to cope.

ostro, 399:

> You are not the only one, the demented Joe also cannot cope... 😋

Joe6pack Tzu, apprentice of Joe Tzu.

Posted by: Mr Y | Jun 15 2022 12:09 utc | 406

@ Citizenfitz 199

you either are misinformed or dishonest. The abortion rate in Russia is nowadays pretty much the same as in the US (about 12-13/1000 and in both countries probably getting lower). There was no mandatory vaccination against COVID-19 in Russia. And the vaccine used in Russia was a lot less controversial than those of Astra Zeneca, Pfizer and Moderna anyway.
You may or may not like a country but generalizing like you do does not show you to be a man of the world.

Posted by: Anton | Jun 15 2022 12:09 utc | 407

Pepe Escobar reporting on his Telegram that Stoltenberg is calling for Ukraine to surrender. Does not post a source for that. Pepe himself is a good source, watch for more

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 15 2022 12:10 utc | 408

If no one else will ask it, I will. The question now is how Russia gets control of major cities in its way - Kharkiv, Odessa, and much more. Mariupol went on for quite a while and took resources. Could Ukraine army actually collapse or is that just an assumption - especially on a city by city level?

Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 15 2022 12:15 utc | 409

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 15 2022 12:10 utc | 404

I'm seeing claims Blinkie is saying that too.

Meanwhile Biden is angrily asserting that he is NOT a spendthrift.

Might have something to do with what's in the Azot plant.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 15 2022 12:15 utc | 410

I also appreciate your including the patriarchy in your description, its a much avoided term these days. Ditto for monotheism, immediately sets the stage for the exceptional religion to be on top.

Posted by: K | Jun 15 2022 5:15 utc | 353

I also enjoyed psychhistoran's comment but the word patriarchy stood out somehow, perhaps because it's one of these new fashionable terms which I don't know what they mean. At all. Please help me understand.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 15 2022 12:17 utc | 411

Yes, the strategy for the West is simple;

If the Russians have a (say) 3-1 advantage in casualty rates, then-

Make sure the Ukrainians have a 4-1 advantage in manpower.

Combined with advanced SIGINT and real-time satellite imagery - which the RF do not possess to anything like the same degree - it can be possible to stalemate the Russians long enough that RF run out of trained manpower.

Hypersonic missiles are great but they need to know where they are going to target before said target moves. If it takes hours to ID the target and get C&C to coordinate a strike, then it is too late.

If Putin had invested some of his €300 billion confiscated reserves in a few squadrons of SU-57s, then the airspace over enemy Ukraine could be used to perform SEAD missions in relative safety and real-time precision strikes on anything that moved.

But, here we are.

So - the UAF build up forces in the West to attempt a counter offensive later in the year, while throwing conscripts at the front. Anyone trying to surrender gets shot.

The West is more than happy to sacrifice a mountain of Ukrainian corpses, as they are sociopaths, and they understand that the Russians are not willing to do the same.

Then force the Russians into a humiliating Minsk 3 type treaty. Watch as an enraged public rallies around some populist oligarch to push Putin out and over time sell out to the West.

It really is all down to the heroism and professionalism of the RF forces on the ground.

Otherwise, "if you come at the King you best not miss".

It strikes me though that the economic warfare is the one sphere which is not going the Wests way at all. Perhaps the more important one.

Posted by: moaobserver | Jun 15 2022 12:17 utc | 412

Surender would be a hard thing to manage, in practice.

Posted by: tim rourke | Jun 15 2022 12:21 utc | 409

Yes, risky as can be. A step in the dark.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 15 2022 12:26 utc | 413

In response to Moaobserver@359,

The posters you've quoted appear to be talking past each other, although there are grains of truth in both cases.

The effectiveness of strike-drones as used by Ukraine really hasn't lived up to the hype, to the point that Turkey started complaining that Ukraine didn't know how to utilize drones properly and, presumably, even refused to supply more of them as their continued use in Ukraine started harming their sales and reputation elsewhere. Enter American strike-drones and comparably poor performance. By that logic, the statement that upset whoever it is you're quoting,

These systems are an absolutely useless instrument of war, when talking about a conflict between real armies...

has a solid enough foundation, particularly in the context that it is used. After all, what's being talked about is an upcoming Polish-Georgian production line of, what appears to be, the very same type of strike-drones. At the very least, relying on these systems to have a significant impact on a battle-field where the opponent controls the airspace should produce disappointing results, and it's accurate to describe these collaborative projects (I believe Kazakhstan also announced something similar with Turkey) as a fad.

Having said that, small and disposable recon drones, which Russian forces never used in any large number, appear to be a hot commodity among ground forces, particularly in mopping-up operations of urban territory and on approach to fortified positions. It seems that Russian MIC has been tasked with setting up production of small drones to be part of the standard kit of regular formations, unlike the selective designation of the comparatively large drone scouts which can be called in as support. So, there's certainly been a positive assessment of the use of civilian drones on the initiative of war journalists, Chechen detachments, DLPR and Wagner that even the regular army bureaucracy sat up and took note. But, nevertheless, this is at heart a field-kit topic that isn't worth getting hung up about. If it improves combat effectiveness by X% in specific situations and helps to save lives, that's great, but in terms of strategic importance it's on par with advances in boots and helmets.

If someone wants to discuss minutia like that, I'm all for it, even if I won't pay much attention to it. But, look at the arguments presented by the individual you've quoted:

-UAV's useless? Tell that to those who've been hit by UAV's.

Great emotional argument. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more casualties from molotovs at the start of the operation, than from UAV's. Inb4 molotovs are treated as a must-have wunderwaffe for the war of the future?

-Go to the front and fight for a bit, then tell us UAV's are useless.

Another great emotional argument, but there are soldiers on rotation who talk about their combat experience and none of them are praising the might of Bairaktars. Ground troops do, occasionally, talk about the usefulness of civilian drones, but even then in the context of how they would use them and not how they were used against them. Ukrainian troops who are cut off, stuck in some trench or dilapidated building, are still dangerous to those who approach and a good use of UAV's to scout or assault them, but they are already out of the fight for all intents and purposes.

-Study the military conflicts of the last 15 years, then tell us UAV's are useless.

Either reading comprehension failure or historical illiteracy, since the few examples we have of UAV's going up against air defenses in the last 15 years and not just going on "safari" shows the OP as being correct. Even on safari, it's rather dubious whether UAV's actually accomplished any objectives. I mean, they killed people, sure, but were they ever a deciding factor in achieving some sort of victorious outcome?

Going through the rest of the post, it's false equivalence, then appeal to emotion, appeal to emotion, tall tales of ISIS (who weren't being supplied by Turkey, Israel, US) achieving "glorious victory" with sticks and bubblegum, misunderstanding of the combat role of Russian air force, appeal to emotion, appeal to authority and historical illiteracy. If this sort of argumentation makes an authoritative source in your eyes, more power to you, but then it makes little sense to act indignant that other people would prefer Martyanov.

Posted by: Skiffer | Jun 15 2022 12:27 utc | 414

If no one else will ask it, I will. The question now is how Russia gets control of major cities in its way - Kharkiv, Odessa, and much more. Mariupol went on for quite a while and took resources. Could Ukraine army actually collapse or is that just an assumption..?

Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 15 2022 12:15 utc | 405
-------------------------------

The exact strategy is only known to the Russian Federation Military High Command and the Security Council. We can only guess. The Ukrainian army is already collapsing, but not yet surrendering officially. There's still a forced mobilisation going on in what's left the Ukraine, trying catch the male Ukrainians to become cannon fodder.

Kharkov, Odessa even Sumi will be taken. Of course, it is an assumption, but it can be felt in the wind. 😄

Posted by: ostro | Jun 15 2022 12:28 utc | 415

If the Russians have a (say) 3-1 advantage in casualty rates, then- Posted by: moaobserver | Jun 15 2022 12:17 utc | 408

---

LOL

Time Is On My Side (Mono Version)

Posted by: too scents | Jun 15 2022 12:30 utc | 416

"Why aren't two projectiles being sent into Kiev for every one that lands in Donetsk?"

As I understand is there is a force of 15,000 Ukrainian troops dug in around the chemical plant and that force is armed with the best equipment Ukraine has left including S-300 SAMs.

The chemical plant is downwind of Donetsk so they can't just overwhelm them with artillery fire without causing an environmental disaster in Donetsk and they can't even overfly the plant with drones because of the SAM's in the plant let alone attack it with aircraft.

I guess the good news is that even if the Ukrainians blow up the chemical plant in a false flag attempt it likely won't drag NATO into the conflict. It really is a devious strategy to turn every siege into a murder suicide pact.

Posted by: HB_Norica | Jun 15 2022 12:32 utc | 417

Kherson. 15.06.2022. City and its differences, History, Trade, People.
https://youtu.be/64XpIPcWk7M

Posted by: ostro | Jun 15 2022 12:36 utc | 418

@411 @Skiffer;

I offer the linked quote as a counter-example to childish triumphalism that reigns among the anti-imperialist left, I am not emotionally attached to it. Your points make some sense..

But..

"I think we were late in the serious introduction of unmanned vehicles. It's objective" - Deputy Prime Minister Borisov

From Cassads LJ:
https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/7675800.html

"Briefly on Deputy Prime Minister Borisov's official admission on the subject of the army not being properly provided with UAVs. Despite all the sarcasm about admitting the obvious fact, it is worth noting that the official admission is an important step towards solving the problem. Just as the lack of normal reconnaissance UAVs was recognised as a significant problem after the Olympic War, which played an important role in the subsequent development of the industry and the emergence of those UAVs that operated in subsequent conflicts.

The problem at the current stage is that Russia has a whole zoo of different models of drones - reconnaissance, strike, kamikaze - but their total number for the current frontline tasks is obviously insufficient. The problem is in quantity, not quality. You can cite the combat experience of Syria, Libya, and Karabakh as much as you like, but it is obvious that this branch of the military-industrial complex does not provide the army in circumstances where the nature of this particular war requires not tens but thousands of UAVs on a huge front - from small quadcopters for infantry platoons and barraging munitions to full-fledged ROC and powerful strike drones. The volume of UAVs operated by Azerbaijan in Karabakh would shred a modern front in Ukraine into mush in a week. The same applies to the Libyan theater of war. It is a completely different theater of operations and completely different volumes. Everything. Not just UAVs. This scope has exposed the problem in all its acuteness.

Now we are operating in a situation where to what the army has is added what is sent by civil society through humanitarian aid. This is obviously not enough. It is good that the state has moved away from the dead-end position of "Shut the shit up, the superiors know best" to an adequate "yes, there is a problem, we are solving it". This underlines both the urgency of the problem and the fact that it is being seriously addressed. When there will be a structural effect from these activities, it is difficult to say without being immersed in the structures of the military-industrial complex. At the frontline, it is clear that the judgement is simple - UAVs for different tasks are either there or not.

The problem can and must be solved by the state by ramping up production (which is already happening), deploying new assembly lines (hopefully that is also happening) and building new factories (hopefully the country will have more UAV production plants as a result of this war). By the way, it makes sense to consider buying UAVs abroad (apart from the obvious purchases of quadcopters from the Chinese). Including kamikaze and strike craft. No need to be shy here, especially if the problem is already recognised.

https://t.me/boris_rozhin/53558 - zinc

PS. I have been saying that UAVs will play an ever-increasing role in local wars since the mid-tens, based on the study of the wars in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen and Karabakh. The current situation has only confirmed the earlier conclusions that UAVs will become an integral part of the modern battlefield in the wars of the twenties, with a significant degree of influence on the course of combat operations, without being some kind of wunderwaffle at the same time. Now, it is simply as obligatory as a cannon, a tank or a rocket launcher. Those who did not understand this before the war in Ukraine could now, I think, see in practice some of the changes in the nature of warfare that result from the massive use of UAVs by the warring parties for different tasks.

The fact that our massive deployment has been delayed is a bad thing. For a conflict of Syria's level, that may have been enough. But it was not enough for the war in Ukraine. And it can't be said that no one knew about this problem and everyone was silent about it. It has created unnecessary problems for us which we have to solve as we go along.

Obviously, this experience, both negative and positive, will affect the development of the entire industry and will obviously lead to a multiplication of the number of UAVs in the army. Hence the moral - do not be late with UAVs. And in general, don't be late - laggards get beaten in today's carnivorous world."

Posted by: moaobserver | Jun 15 2022 12:36 utc | 419

Otherwise, "if you come at the King you best not miss".

It strikes me though that the economic warfare is the one sphere which is not going the Wests way at all. Perhaps the more important one.

Posted by: moaobserver | Jun 15 2022 12:17 utc | 408

What strikes me is they have chosen economic warfare as a weapon in the first place, a case on not knowing yourself as well as not knowing your enemy. Their enemies are not weaker economically, so it is a dumb place to pick a fight. But then it is dumb to pick a fight at all. But then, as the last 30 years show, they are pretty dumb.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 15 2022 12:38 utc | 420

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 15 2022 10:58 utc | 396
Posted by: DunGroanin | Jun 15 2022 10:59 utc | 397

Excellent analyses, thank you both.

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 15 2022 12:47 utc | 421

@417; Bemildred;

Yes, they are dumb. Narcissistic sociopaths are only really concerned with maintaining control over their "lessers" in the present moment - they don't have the cognitive ability to make sensible long-term strategies.

They also can't learn.

The smarter ones pay others to do this for them, but over time their clever employees realise that to get ahead, they need to write only what their superiors want to hear.

They can't do win-win type deals because this would imply their opponent is somehow equal, which viscerally disgusts Narcissists.

The recent interview Amber Heard made just after losing her court case is a trivial if amusing example of a celebrity doing this.

IMO "people" like this can only be locked up or otherwise isolated from society. No known treatment for severe personality disorders. Especially when these traits are selected for and institutionalised as in the West.

Posted by: moaobserver | Jun 15 2022 12:49 utc | 422

In Mariupol, the “Azovites” said on camera that the Russian army approaching the city was not terrible. After the capture of the city and Azovstal, it became clear that someone had calculated pretty badly.

About 2,500 people, including Nazis and mercenaries from abroad, are currently sitting in the basements of the Azot plant. They are sure to be crushed. And it will be even faster than last time.

The Ukrainian army does not learn from its own failures -- the main lesson to avoid the encirclement at all costs. Debaltsevo, Svetlodarsk, Donetsk Airport, Ilovaisk, Mariupol now here ns Severodonetsk, how many more defeats are needed for Ukraine to stop playing army and start living in peace?

Posted by: ostro | Jun 15 2022 12:54 utc | 423

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 15 2022 10:17 utc | 393

Now, both Putin and Medvedev say that in effect Russia is going to annex whole of Ukraine. Wow, who could have seen that coming? This is really shocking. I don't know how I'm going to cope. I mean, it's like hearing that the little green men in Crimea were russian soldiers all along! Boy, they sure surprise everyone. Nobody could guess that, either!

You're assuming that "Ukraine" will continue to exist at all. Everyone knows what "assume" means? Some time back I posited this very thing of Ukraine no longer existing: and now Medvedev appears to be suggesting this very thing! You need to catch up on things!

Posted by: Seer | Jun 15 2022 12:55 utc | 424

@Ostro @420;

Don't know, but DPR authorities announcing death sentences already for people who surrendered in Mariupol is hardly likely to encourage the troops in Azot to do so, is it?

Posted by: moaobserver | Jun 15 2022 12:56 utc | 425

ostro @ 420

They won't learn, ever, because all decisions are made in Washington. Success in Washington is not based on anything except sucking up. There is no learning curve.
They will not start to live in peace until Ukraine does not exist.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 15 2022 13:05 utc | 426

Posted by: moaobserver | Jun 15 2022 12:49 utc | 419

Well, best to keep your distance, for sure. If you are anywhere in the neighborhood, there is always some shit going on. They are needy people too. They have a lot of needs, not just money or bimbos/bimbas, that is only the start. You need a gold toilet to sit on, you need a library with your name, you need the illusion that everybody will not forget all about you someday. You need attention. In the end you must be perfect, without blemish. A tough gig for anybody.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 15 2022 13:09 utc | 427

Posted by: moaobserver | Jun 15 2022 12:56 utc | 422

There are conditions of surrender for genuine soldiers, but not for criminals. Mercenaries are criminals, after all. Nazis too, or any soldier, who had done criminal acts against the civilians.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 15 2022 13:12 utc | 428

To me the loss of democracy, governance by the people, is a key factor on why everything is screwed up. It warrants more attention.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 14 2022 21:50 utc | 223

Pure electoral democracy becomes fraudulent and, worse, usually, "pay-for-play," the minute the electorate becomes too large for the average elector to personally know the average candidate.

Sortition with expert staffs where needed is the only way I've been able to think of to go, bolstered by a non pay-for-play civil-justice system and ethics-juries.

I wrote an omnibus "Apocalypse Now" "Populist Amendment" back in the OWS days in a rush-job of six weeks which seems ever cruder over time (and just glancing over it saw a change or addition or two I'd like) but does incorporate the basic ideas, and perhaps most importantly but implicitly (crude) that I do not believe that this sort of thing can be done piecemeal:

https://jdkabc.blogspot.com/2011/10/beyond-plutocracy-and-its-two_06.html

Posted by: John Kennard | Jun 15 2022 13:19 utc | 429

Mariupol yesterday 14.06.2022, spontaneous market, Shevchenko st https://youtu.be/v8Up37mJYfk

Not like what the western MSM rags say...

Posted by: ostro | Jun 15 2022 13:23 utc | 430

@
“ Primitive and childish thinking. I trust the Chinese forces show more professionalism.
Posted by: Moaobserver | Jun 15 2022 6:23 utc | 359 “

Just as well for the Russians that they are in a mutual self defence treaty, reiterated only 6 months ago, and with joint training and exercises, where logistics have been tested.

Isn’t it?

I posited in some previous post that the rotation of units of the regular forces is basically allowing the populace to get behind their forces, join as well these ‘happy few’ and getting plenty of battle experienced forces that the SCO will distribute throughout the world where and when needed.

The Empire is DEAD. it’s rotting zombie Gollum is falling to bits. That is why the new multipolar system is letting it do to itself what would otherwise incur greater cost in lives.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Jun 15 2022 13:27 utc | 431

seer @ 421
No, actually I'm not assuming that. It has been obvious from the start that destruction of ukraine is the main goal of the imperialist russia. But Putin lied about it, and quite a good portion of commenters here believed it. Me, never!

But now they have to spin their minds around it, explain to themselves how they all the time didn't believe any de-nazification bullshit, helping republics etc.
It was from the start about conquest and pillage, loot for the empire.

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 15 2022 13:31 utc | 432

In response to moaobserver@408,

If the Russians have a (say) 3-1 advantage in casualty rates, ...Make sure the Ukrainians have a 4-1 advantage in manpower.

That does sound like a strategy devised by tactical geniuses. Manpower at the front, vs artillery, has a direct relation to target density and subsequent casualty rate, meaning it's a strategy that in its most basic form defeats its own purpose.

Manpower sitting in trenches and locking up urban areas has 0 impact until it is engaged at close distance. Even then, manpower has 0 impact unless it's adequately equipped and supplied. A straight up manpower advantage gives Ukraine nothing -- a weapons and supply line advantage over Russia is a pipedream. Russia continues hitting Ukrainian supply lines daily, Ukraine can't touch Russian supply lines. Ukraine is currently requesting weapons and ammunition to a tune larger than Western stockpiles have available for their own security needs -- inb4 Ukraine requests Western manpower to carry on its strategy of numerical advantage?

I'm sure that would impact on morale, not that we're even considering that as a factor for a prolonged conflict where one side takes disproportionate losses for the entire duration. Maybe it's not that important.

Combined with advanced SIGINT and real-time satellite imagery - which the RF do not possess to anything like the same degree - it can be possible to stalemate the Russians long enough that RF run out of trained manpower.

Hypersonic missiles are great but they need to know where they are going to target before said target moves. If it takes hours to ID the target and get C&C to coordinate a strike, then it is too late.

That's rather speculative. Considering the inability of Ukraine to execute any counterattacks or cutoffs of Russian formations, it would appear more like they're sitting blind out there. Maybe there's some merit to the Russian claim of having blinded satellites with lasers, or maybe there are serious limitations on the intelligence sharing.

Meanwhile, the Russians intercept a large number of weapon shipments before they make it to the front, continue hitting training camps and staff hq's far inland, while Ukraine primarily uses its long-range systems to hit non-military targets. I guess they're being fed bad intel from those superior systems. Luckily for the Russians, Ukraine hasn't figured out how to make large targets such as weapon stockpiles, army bases and training camps mobile, but I'm sure Elon Musk is working on it. They would only need to make them invisible and self-propelling to ensure victory.

If Putin had invested some of his €300 billion confiscated reserves in a few squadrons of SU-57s, then the airspace over enemy Ukraine could be used to perform SEAD missions in relative safety and real-time precision strikes on anything that moved.

Luckily the real figure ended up being more manageable at $30 billion, not that it would have changed the number of SU-57's in production or the way they're being used in Ukraine. It's not like Russia can import SU-57's using Gasprom's foreign currency accounts, nor would matching Ukrainian stockpiles with jets be a cost effective strategy in any currency. There are pockets where Ukrainian air defenses serve 0 purpose and pockets where there aren't any air defenses because they are taken out.

So - the UAF build up forces in the West to attempt a counter offensive later in the year, while throwing conscripts at the front. Anyone trying to surrender gets shot.

The West is more than happy to sacrifice a mountain of Ukrainian corpses, as they are sociopaths, and they understand that the Russians are not willing to do the same.

Then force the Russians into a humiliating Minsk 3 type treaty. Watch as an enraged public rallies around some populist oligarch to push Putin out and over time sell out to the West.

It's all idle work without a concrete objective. Are they planning to reinforce the line and try for a stalemate with disproportionate casualties on their side? Maybe push the allied forces out of Ukraine entirely? Or are these Ukrainian forces planning to march into Moscow? Is their objective political change in Russia? It's optimistic to think that achieving even these wholly unrealistic goals would serve the interests of Kiev and their foreign sponsors. Just thinking about it rationally, all of these scenarios run the risk of making the situation for Ukraine worse, not better.

Posted by: Skiffer | Jun 15 2022 13:31 utc | 433

sorry, previous comment was for seer @ 424

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 15 2022 13:34 utc | 434

If you bothered to listen to Martyanov, you'd know what a Russian military academy education is.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 15 2022 7:01 utc | 361
----------------------------------------
Posted by: ostro | Jun 15 2022 7:43 utc | 369

If I understand Hack correctly, they/their/them refers to formal scenario modeling (a/k/a decision tree modeling). The programming competence of officers employed is required by peers to validate a particular planned maneuver and probility of a desired outcome of that function. The most rudimentary computer programming necessarily entails an equation (identity) expressed ad a set of local and global variables to which one assigns a range of indepedent and dependent quantitative and qualitative data presumably collected from field (not laboratory) surveillance of reserve and deployed materiel in situ (actionable "intelligence"). The greater the scope of the function (plan, design, strategy) the greater the range of input collected to assure predictive power (accuracy). Here is the one and only Martyanov lecture I have encountered. He associates academy education with basic (form) and applied mastery of differential calculus. That's all I need to know about his knowledge of and experise in RF military apparatus--and by comparison, purported PUTIN motives, or rationale, for NATO "lethal aid" offered to Ukraine's alternating offense/defense and presented by the press corpse to western spectators as "bravery" instead of ignorance.

Posted by: sln2002 | Jun 15 2022 13:45 utc | 435

What better way to wreak destruction on one’s own people, then utilizing and propping up a disposable puppet, and protect said puppet from all criticism. To fight until the last disposable puppet ensures there is a long way to go. Or until the well runs dry, whichever comes first.

Posted by: Geoff | Jun 15 2022 13:48 utc | 436

Pepe Escobar reporting on his Telegram that Stoltenberg is calling for Ukraine to surrender. Does not post a source for that. Pepe himself is a good source, watch for more

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 15 2022 12:10 utc | 408

---

I'm seeing claims Blinkie is saying that too.

Meanwhile Biden is angrily asserting that he is NOT a spendthrift.

Might have something to do with what's in the Azot plant.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 15 2022 12:15 utc | 410


Yet more proof, as if any were needed, that those tens of billions of dollars appropriated by Congress and approved by the President have little if anything to do with the defense of those plucky little Nazis, and everything to do with propping up the domestic arms industry, no doubt with some slush money for select corruptocrats in the bargain.

Posted by: malenkov | Jun 15 2022 13:50 utc | 437


"Mamuka Mamulashvili, who leads the so-called Georgian Legion, told journalists that a total of nearly 20,000 foreign fighters are currently serving in volunteer units in Ukraine. According to Mamulashvili’s estimates, almost a seventh of them are UK citizens, or almost 3,000...."

Posted by: bevin | Jun 14 2022 22:20 utc | 241

Wasn't it the Georgian Legion that videoed themselves slowly shooting wounded Russian prisoners to death?

I wonder how many Brits took part in that?

(And similar unvideoed or undistributed acts?)

Posted by: John Kennard | Jun 15 2022 13:55 utc | 438

I wrote an omnibus "Apocalypse Now" "Populist Amendment" back in the OWS days in a rush-job of six weeks which seems ever cruder over time (and just glancing over it saw a change or addition or two I'd like) but does incorporate the basic ideas, and perhaps most importantly but implicitly (crude) that I do not believe that this sort of thing can be done piecemeal:

https://jdkabc.blogspot.com/2011/10/beyond-plutocracy-and-its-two_06.html

Posted by: John Kennard | Jun 15 2022 13:19 utc | 430

Took a quick look but it's too rich for my taste right now (which is not a reflection of what you wrote). Big topic.

A general remark though: human beings and their civilizations are continuously evolving and devolving, news ways emerging from the ashes of the old or simply proceeding forward naturally. Very broadly speaking there has been a move from tribal to feudal to civilizational, in some cases with Empires spanning many different nations, and now with global integration in the mix due to the collapsing of distance from IT advances.

All modalities have virtues and failings. Good new developments build on the virtues and correct the failings. In terms of the US, my feeling is that first there must be some sort of collapse. The Pathocracy it has devolved into since WW II is irredeemable at this point. The first Republic must die before a new one can be born.

Second, are there any models out there for the second Republic? I don't know enough about them to be confident but am getting the feeling that both Russia and China - both of which have been configured in the last half of the last century and thus are far more modern - have much to offer. Possibly India too. There are no doubt certain aspects in each that we will find too unpalatable to adopt but the thing is to look for the core, the essence, of whatever it is they have put together.

For all I know Russia and China have entirely different systems with little in common. Somehow I doubt it. They both have participatory democratic element. I read somewhere that China has more protests per capita than any other nation in the world. We hear a lot about political prisoners but their jail population is per capital way below America's which is the highest in the world by far. Russia seems to embrace traditional western family values and have built a good society around that. For a lovely article on this: https://gpovanman.wordpress.com/2022/06/10/spirit-of-the-matter/
They also generally have included their main religion, Orthodox Christian, back into the mainstream or core of their cultural identity and experience which gives a further sense of collective solidarity, aka 'we the people.'

They have constitutionally prescribed processes though the political structures are quite different. The point is that they have been thought through and implemented and seem to work very well. China can decide on a huge project - like putting trains through the Himalayas, a feat on a par with the Great Wall - and go through all the planning and then start implementing in a year or two whereas in the West such things never get off the ground or if they do take forever (the Chunnel for example, in the end a success story I gather).

The point is that first the old mess must be allowed a dignified death (though chaos and bloodshed is more likely if history is any guide); and then something new and better can be put in place most likely by borrowing from more recent configurations such as those in Russia and China but which end up embracing the core values and spirit of the American character and lineage.

To that end I suggest that you/we start with learning much more about other ways of doing things rather than trying to 'get our country back' and restore a Republic which has been long gone (at least since 1913) and perhaps never really existed in the way it has been idealized for generations. It was a good try but we need to go back to the drawing board.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 15 2022 13:58 utc | 439

et more proof, as if any were needed, that those tens of billions of dollars appropriated by Congress and approved by the President have little if anything to do with the defense of those plucky little Nazis, and everything to do with propping up the domestic arms industry, no doubt with some slush money for select corruptocrats in the bargain.
Posted by: malenkov | Jun 15 2022 13:50 utc | 438

Those "pallets of cash" are harder to come by these days I guess. I have noticed a grasping tendency in the US government since back in the days of Bush the Lesser, which is when the real rush to bankruptcy began.

It is amazing to me how long it has taken really, but I guess that's what it means to have hegemony, however fleeting it was.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 15 2022 13:58 utc | 440

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 14 2022 22:38 utc | 256

So glad to hear you worked for Nader, karlof1. I'm a registered Green, not because of anything they've done here or there since, but as a Nader green. My proudest vote was that one.

Posted by: juliania | Jun 15 2022 14:00 utc | 441

For those, who can understand Russian, https://youtu.be/HdaVqEFdtxg
Ukraine - encirclement begins. Summary from the front. Poland is preparing its army. Will China return Taiwan?

Posted by: ostro | Jun 15 2022 14:07 utc | 442

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 14 2022 22:38 utc | 256

So glad to hear you worked for Nader, karlof1. I'm a registered Green, not because of anything they've done here or there since, but as a Nader green. My proudest vote was that one.

Posted by: juliania | Jun 15 2022 14:00 utc | 442

In my opinion the only truly qualified candidate in generations. But of course since he is/was a quintessential outsider par excellence he was regarded as not qualified at all.

I am tired of Trump and was never an acolyte but I think if he had been given a chance instead of sabotaged viciously from the get-go that he could have brought the country forward leaps and bounds especially in down to earth practical ways - taxes, infrastructure, trade, manufacturing, environment (reduction of pollution), urban development, education, general wellness and so forth. I say 'he' but it would felt more like 'we.' But he was sabotaged from the morning after the election and the rest, as they say, is history. For the saboteurs any success on his part, even when it greatly benefited the citizenry, was anathema. Anyway: water under the bridge.

A Nader will never be elected in the current Republic in which no elected President can have much effect in any case. The Swamp rules. It's a secret plutarchy-autarchy-oligarchy-pathocracy at this point. It's not a Republic at all but a criminal operation masquerading as one. The parasites have devoured the host. Death is inevitable.

As Trump might tweet: 'Sad!'

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 15 2022 14:10 utc | 443

Citizenfitz | Jun 14 2022 21:36 utc | 213

Since you asked so nicely, albeit falsely...

"So, please explain why it is NOT a war crime to destroy some "civilian infrastructure"..."

Straw-man??? Disingenuous?? As if you didn't know

To militarily establish fire points and storage of armaments and ammunition intentionally amongst civilian infrastructure (standard NATO and now Ukraine military tactic similar to using civilians as captive forced human shields) and use those military installations in war crimes against purely civilian infrastructure with zero military value forfeits any claim that a counter attack after such atrocities is also a war crime.

You, what ever you are, are most assuredly FOS!

I'm with MarkU at 265 all the way

Posted by: Doesitreallymatter | Jun 15 2022 14:10 utc | 444

karlof1 | Jun 14 2022 22:46 utc | 267 &
karlof1 | Jun 14 2022 22:59 utc | 273

Isn't it true that it is a misunderstanding to simply equate the act of or permission to vote as being "democracy"?

Seems to me that is a "trapping" of and part of a popular facade much touted but hardly indicative of the presence of functioning "democracy".

Perhaps I am mistaken

Posted by: Doesitreallymatter | Jun 15 2022 14:19 utc | 445

"..Pure electoral democracy becomes fraudulent and, worse, usually, "pay-for-play," the minute the electorate becomes too large for the average elector to personally know the average candidate..."
John Kennard@430
Exhibit A in the proof of which is the House of Representatives which at 430 odd members is ludicrously small for a nation of 320 million people and millions of square miles. And it was designed
to be that way. It is impossible for a candidate to address the electorate of a constituency with half a million odd voters and, in rural areas large distances to travel. Thus money becomes the most important part of electioneering, far more important than recruiting supporters or crafting a programme to enthuse.
In the end, as every socialist knows, the key to a properly functioning democracy is social and economic equality, which not only ensures that nobody is rich enough to buy an election but also frees people of that economic dependence which, for example, makes it impossible for most people to campaign openly for policies of which their employers disapprove.

Posted by: bevin | Jun 15 2022 14:23 utc | 446

In response to moaobserver@420,

Cassad is addressing the public with this post, which has made a mountain out of a mouse on drones. He isn't saying anything profound, nor is it clear if he would side with the hysterics of the previous poster you quoted -- Cassad, after all, emphasizes that drones aren't a wunderwaffe. Maybe he could have rained on that parade some more by mentioning all the scenarios where drones serve a limited or even negligible purpose, but the discussion in his comment section should be adequate. His view is that the production capacity wasn't up to par for the tasks which presented themselves in Ukraine, and I think that's an adequate assessment.

At the same time, that doesn't change the fact that, in this operation, it is a win-more tool. There are no objective indicators that the absence of this particular piece of equipment has hampered operations. Rather, the utility of personal civilian drones as employed by forces parallel to those of Russian regulars, in the specific context of particular ground operations, has made it a desirable piece of kit among Russian servicemen. Beyond a lack of mass-production of this equipment, which has been promised, their use isn't part of the Russian combat doctrine or training, but field improvisation.

Now, if Russia had planned and prepared for a prolonged conflict with Ukraine and mapped out every contingency, extending to the individual behavior of Ukrainian combat formations, I suppose they could have pegged the utility of these particular types of drones beforehand and worked something out, provided that it in no way detracted from all other priority developments that took place over the last 8 years. But, when people talk about Karabakh or Syria, they're talking about something else -- these attack and suicide drones, which Russia uses in small numbers, are a different kettle of fish and in no way an adequate replacement for jets or long-range systems and their track-record against air defenses or ew systems is piss poor across the board.

Their use by Russia in Ukraine is proportional to their usefulness, but the debate around the catch-all term of drone creates this uselessly vague discussion, where the impression is that Russia could replace its current ground strategy with drones, to achieve a quick victory with 0 losses if only the top brass knew what they were doing -- even Cassad is sufficiently imprecise with his use of language that one might think Russia desperately needs more Okhotnik drones to accomplish its objectives.

Meanwhile, in planning for the possibility of open hostilities with a peer or near-peer opponent, the personal issue drones, if they are mass produced as promised, will be of further dubious or situational usefulness. Maybe they'll sit in warehouses until the next large-scale combined arms police operation ala Ukraine rears its head, which might be never.

Posted by: Skiffer | Jun 15 2022 14:37 utc | 447

@434 @Skiffer;

Sure RF intercepts some weapons shipments before they get to the front. They do have some intel and surveillance capability.

Nevertheless due to factors I mentioned they can't hit them in force while they are on their way to the front, where they are then hidden or deployed.

This was according to a RuAF officer on a Russian TG channel - unfortunately I didn't save the link.

As most UAF forces would be wiped out by artillery if they mounted large scale offensives in the countryside, they don't have much choice but to sit in trenches or urban areas, no matter how good their intel from the USA.

The strategy I mentioned is the one as stated by the Washington Post in a recent article, I'm repeating the neocon thinking here.

It probably won't work very well as a strategy on its own.

This is why it is likely that the Poles will be sent in to secure the West, freeing Ukrainian forces for a large counter-offensive, or some other devious stratagem will be employed to keep the West in the fight.

Finally, SU-57 have been ready for mass production for a few years now.

According to critical Russian commentators, it seems there was an unacceptably high degree of complacency in the Russian armed forces, which Shoigu and Putin were ultimately responsible for.

Dimitry Gorenberg used to have informative entries on modernisation efforts, on his blog https://russiamil.wordpress.com/ - but he seems to have changed focus last few years.

I just read that Xi has announced some sort of support for Russia in the area of security. This might make the West back off. More likely though, escalate to Taiwan.

The Western civilisation does have an "all or nothing" feel to it.

Posted by: moaobserver | Jun 15 2022 14:48 utc | 448

"To that end I suggest that you/we start with learning much more about other ways of doing things rather than trying to 'get our country back' and restore a Republic which has been long gone (at least since 1913) and perhaps never really existed in the way it has been idealized for generations. It was a good try but we need to go back to the drawing board"

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 15 2022 13:58 utc | 440

Well said. Have the same problem in Canada, without the seminal works of Founding Fathers to point to. The better, more productive approach indeed would be to raze the current structure to the ground & start over with a new, stronger foundation. To take the reno approach risks allowing the current rot to continue to spread, making the overall process more painful & time-consuming

Posted by: ianMoone | Jun 15 2022 14:58 utc | 449

Bemildred @ 428
Sounds you are describing Vladimir Vladimirovych.
We all have seen pics of his bathroom in Sochi?

Posted by: Joe6pack | Jun 15 2022 15:02 utc | 450

Juliania, karlof, about the Green party

In Germany the Greens have a different shade, so I would not vote for them there. The adjective "green" can be very misleading. Just think of the Bearbock as FM and Habeck as economy and climate minister and one has the "nose full" (die Nase voll) - as they say in German. But many Germans still think "green".

Posted by: fanto | Jun 15 2022 15:18 utc | 451

The problem of surrendering is not so simple. In WW2 soldiers from Germanic French Alsace were conscripted into the German army and then sent to the Russian front. I have talked to survivors who said that crossing over to the Soviet front line was not easy verging on impossible, without getting shot by both sides.

Posted by: Theophilus | Jun 15 2022 15:25 utc | 452

@Anton/407, you're right. Abortions in Russia have declined greatly since the early 2000's. Good news. Hope it gets even better.

But Russians were told to get the jab - or lose their jobs. Same as here. That order came down from the Russian govt: "If x % of your employees aren't vaccinated within the next four months you will be fined."

Evidently enough Russians resisted, and the scheme has finally collapsed.

Posted by: Citizenfitz | Jun 15 2022 15:30 utc | 453

Won't see this movie anywhere in the West.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QstyDWiMiXQ

"Their're Fascist. They are not humans. They're animals."

That's how denazification was done in the Past.

http://kino-1080.com/232-321-ja-sibirskaja.html

Posted by: Tom_12 | Jun 15 2022 15:53 utc | 454

Why is it that you can access the Russian MoD website, but for me it's always "access denied"?

Posted by: Susan | Jun 14 2022 15:58 utc | 17
Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 14 2022 16:21 utc | 28

AFAIR we already discussed it in February, whe Western DDoS attack on Russian internet was on its pinnacle.

Back then we learnt that eng.mil.ru are actually two different servers (ip addresses) hosted by different internet providers. And that Internet DNS service was configured to report one server to Russian readers and another to Western readers, so that Western DDoS attacks got focused on one inter et provider and server while another kept working.

Overriding normal DNS querying and pinning the site to Russian server back then let American readers to read the pages.

I am not sure that is exactly what is happening today, but might be related.

Posted by: Arioch | Jun 15 2022 16:56 utc | 455

@Mr Y: « The dating coach turned geopolitical analyst? No thank you.»

For peace-loving people, geopolitics is the continuation of date coaching by other means.

Posted by: Leuk | Jun 15 2022 17:07 utc | 456

Smile, gentlemen, smile!

- Dmitry Medvedev

Posted by: ostro | Jun 14 2022 19:40 utc | 141

The last sentence is a quote.

Smile, gentlemen, smile! The dead serious face is not a proof of great mind. Actually all the worst idiocies in the world were committed with that kind face.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qIHlf5qfSQY

Posted by: Arioch | Jun 15 2022 17:18 utc | 457

bevin @ 447

If a politician is gregarious it is entirely possible for him to personally contact a large number of constituents. Without ever being active in local politics at all I met Mayor Harold Washington three times and spoke with him a couple minutes the third time. He remembered me from the very brief previous encounters. I ran into Adlai Stevenson III many times. Some of this due to my customers living in areas where he was fundraising but he too stopped and spoke with me even though it was clear the housepainter would not be funding his campaigns. Harold was a great guy. Adlai I could have cared less but he talked anyway.

For seven years I lived directly across the street from my alderman. Spoke to him just once when he was dead drunk and needed help getting in the door. Probably would have been better to leave him in the snow.

Have personally met my current congresswoman, Schakowsky, three times and she was rude and nasty each time. After the first time I would have walked across street to avoid her but she just bumped into me.

Studs Terkel is something like a politician. Always on the bus, always at the bar. And every other place. Talked a few times with Nelson Algren because he was always out walking and loved to talk.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 15 2022 18:04 utc | 458

William Gruff@400 - Fair enough, William - I was speaking in generalities. No quibble with your point that only a small fraction of military need to be sufficiently groomed first. And 'great cost'? Sure. I know because I've already paid for the U.S. government to build such a force HERE. They're on the payroll now.

I was about to make an entirely-too-long post of the evolution of the 70k+ member USSOCOM (Special Operations Command). While no overtly trained to kill U.S. civilians, they will kill anyone their treasonous commanders point them at. They just haven't been specifically pointed at U.S. civilians... yet.

Ever see the 160th SOAR black helicopters 'practicing' counter-terror operations over major U.S. cities? You don't really think they're training to protect normal citizens from ISIS, do you? They are training to protect government assets and the elite from anyone that threatens them - citizen or not.

"Basically, turning the military against its own population is prohibitively expensive"

From scratch? Train/brainwash the entire military? Sure. But SOCOM is already 90% there, and the general population is easily conned into supporting genocide - as long as it's billed as anti-terrorist operations to protect their freedom.

It's never going to be as overt as lining up mom and pop in a ditch and lighting them up with a SAW. Now, if fixed-income mom and pop in a decaying city start marching around the local Fed branch protesting hyperinflation and food shortages and break a few windows? Oh hell - you'll see just how quickly the Night Hawk Predators and MH-60Ls start neutralizing those terroristic, anti-government mobs to protect politicians and banking officials. I know... I know... well, THAT'S different! Except it's really not, is it?

Posted by: PavewayIV | Jun 15 2022 18:05 utc | 459

@ psychohistorian | Jun 15 2022 3:49 utc | 343

Thanks for continuing in here. Russophobia is the name of the ugliness I see insidiously suggested in Francis' words to his flock and the world about Ukraine. He seldom misses an opportunity to slide in that 1,000 year-old stiletto: bemoaning the despotic, barbaric, backward Eastern horde -- peace on Earth, God help us.

THESE are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman.
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
-- Thomas Paine

I now find your "God of Mammon cult" explanation most plausible, but how I adopted this attitude is more interesting to me than that I did. Fundamental transformation of attitudes -- even how we remember history we've experienced -- it is possible when we're all going through such "times that try men's souls". Separating wheat from chaff, intellectually and morally, has been greatly simplified for us, in many cases. In fits of totally irrational optimism, I suggest to myself that such times could introduce revolutionary potential.

Into the US American polity? I'm not even kidding myself with that one. The revolution will not be packaged in recyclable cardboard and delivered to your door by an Amazon untermensch.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 15 2022 18:13 utc | 460

The stenographers have guaranteed careers which turn them into millionaires working for the billionaires. They don’t rock the boat. These who do are ostracised and ‘never work’ again.
Examples abound. Some are imprisoned. Some are even killed.

@ DunGroanin | Jun 15 2022 10:59 utc | 401

RIP Gary Webb -- whose downfall signalled the end of any journalistic ambitions I may once have harbored. It's a dog-pit in there; they'll rip any outcast to shreds.

On a unified signal. The unison we see in all US American media, when it comes to the subtle shifts of attitude b specializes in documenting, it's simply Esther Williams magnificent -- breathtaking! This morning they're inching a tad closer to blaming the whole mess on Zelenskyyy -- my new spelling, because every time I see him so bravely, brazenly begging for billions, I feel like banging my head against the wall, wailing "why? why? why?"

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 15 2022 18:31 utc | 461

"To determine whether the Western states are democracies, we have to ask ourselves: are their rulers following the will of their people? Many here would say “no”, but let’s think again. Could it be that the Westerners actually like the Empire? Could it be that their supposed naïveté and lack of critical thinking are merely feigned? That it is convenient for them to appear credulous when the Empire is pushing atrocity propaganda as an excuse for bombing and sanctioning yet another country? That deep inside they understand that the Empire is oppressing non-imperial countries so that they can have a higher standard of living? And that, therefore, the imperial rulers are actually doing what their people want? And that, therefore, the Western states are democracies, after all (according to my definition)?

Posted by: S | Jun 15 2022 2:27 utc | 332"

You just touched the Third Rail of politics: Western citizens deep down support their Evil Empire because they know very well that their way of life, wealth, standard of living, and power are all ultimately based on maintaining and expanding this Empire.

Without the capability to bomb, invade, exploit, regime change, balkanize, destabilize, sanction, or genocide around the planet, the Western way of life and all that they have will come to crashing to the ground.

What’s more, many of the supposed “critics” of the Empire, which you find in the supposed alternative media, are not principled critics but rather critical of the ineffective or counterproductive tactics they believe the Empire is implementing.

In short, these fake antiwar/anti-imperialist critics are complaining about the ineffective tactics of their Empire—not the fact of Empire itself.

So in a warped sense, Western regimes do in fact reflect the will of their people and thus are in fact democracies.

The only catch is: They are all imperial war criminal democracies.

Posted by: ak74 | Jun 15 2022 18:33 utc | 462

PavewayIV @460: "From scratch? Train/brainwash the entire military? Sure. But SOCOM is already 90% there, and the general population is easily conned into supporting genocide - as long as it's billed as anti-terrorist operations to protect their freedom."

Agreed, but this is where the regular military grunts will turn on the Special Forces. I suppose this goes back to your original point that armaments that otherwise would be available to the grunts are being shipped offshore. That certainly seems like a possibility.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 15 2022 20:45 utc | 463

Passerby @358--

As a restaurant patron, I've been known to alter menus in my favor, quite often since I was once the menu writer and know what's possible.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 15 2022 21:29 utc | 464

William Gruff @400--

Excellent comment! That's why the CIA's black money from drugs and its other illegal doings were so important. But with the loss of Afghan heroin and better global anti-drug policing, that pool of money isn't as huge and is dwindling at a rapid rate, IMO. Furthermore, the Nazi development in Ukraine represents a very longterm investment by CIA/Outlaw US Empire that cannot be reproduced anywhere. Most everywhere else, Death Squads use basic ethnic hatred as drivers that are possible if enough training's imparted to turn into Fascist/Nazi squads. And since 1990, the Communist Threat no longer works as it did for the previous 45 years.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 15 2022 21:46 utc | 465

Doesitreallymatter @446--

IMO, you must start with the basic elements with the ideal of self-government, self-determination. How do you organize it--the process? One of the reasons why schools have student government is to teach the How though active participation. Let's get extremely basic--Stone Age basic. The group/clan has two types of leaders: those who are strong in their physical abilities and those who are long-lived and have accumulated wisdom/knowledge. Neither can do without the other, although it could be argued a group could do without a strong man/men. Wisdom, however, is a must. So some type of council becomes the norm with elders and perhaps warriors. Now, how does that council decide things? Consensus or majority? Either way demands voting. Thus, one can see that voting is intrinsic to self-government/democracy, whether the polity is 100% consensual or one where the majority rules. Western political systems are so polluted by caustic corruption, few see the value in voting, thus philosophies are constructed to explain why voting is useless, which is what we've seen on display in this thread. My argument is the system was never properly arranged to allow self-government/democracy; an oligarchy is what was created and that's what now rules us. The system created by the Articles of Confederation as well as some of the initial state constitutions were much better constructs when it came to the ability to self-govern. The Avalon Project has all those documents; and 20 years ago, I assigned them for students to read so they could see the difference. No other teacher on the faculty did that. Nor were they in the state's (California) curriculum standards, and it's easy to see why they aren't.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 15 2022 22:20 utc | 466

PavewayIV @460--

Agreed. That's why 6 January is so damned important as it's being used to set up later ATOs.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 15 2022 22:26 utc | 467

karlof1@468 - Absolutely. The pearl-clutchers and political parasites are grooming the U.S. population to fear and have a homicidal hatred for anyone that opposes the self-serving policies of the pearl-clutchers and political parasites.

They seem to forget that this country was founded by violent, secessionist Colonial terrorists that opposed the policies of our lawfully-elected parliament and King in England. The United States shouldn't have been able to declare independence - it was clearly against the law and an act of armed rebellion (terrorism).

If we are not a nation of laws, then what are we?? [shriek!]

Posted by: PavewayIV | Jun 15 2022 23:57 utc | 468

@Scorpion | Jun 14 2022 21:13 utc | 200 re, (paraphrasing), "Karlof1, you should get a substack account because you write often and well".

I couldn't agree more. I learn tons from Karl's posts and seek them out. Karl, your most recent where you analyze Michael Hudson's work just prior to the SMO was superb. I agree with Scorpion that you should be reaching a wider audience.

Scorpion, unless you already have one, I think the world would be better place if you followed your own advice to Karl. I appreciate what you write and respect the obvious depth of knowledge behind it. I thank both you and Karl for the perspective your work provides.

And while I would defend to the death their right to speak their truth, those posters who push Western propaganda might find more fertile ground at any of the zillions of western propaganda sites. And leave us in peace.

I don't believe that ad hominem attacks have any place on this site. Particularly on those knowledgeable frequent-posters who's departure from MOA because of abuse would be a loss for all of us.

Those are just my two cents. Thanks again to b and all contributors who advance the cause of knowledge and peace on this site.

Posted by: Boomhauer | Jun 16 2022 0:11 utc | 469

PavewayIV @469--

I once asked here years ago if those of us who are retired US military still believe in honoring our oaths. I was met with much silence. But then few know the Truth. And thanks for returning to comment here more frequently!!

Boomhauser @470 and Scorpion--

Thanks for your suggestions. They're quite flattering. My VK site is only two years old. Pepe Escobar has suggested I seek publication, too. Perhaps I'll have something going before the end of 2023.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 16 2022 0:29 utc | 470

@DunGroanin | Jun 15 2022 10:59 utc | 401

@
“ I've often wondered how, exactly, the MSM outlets are signaled by the CIA.
Posted by: SingingSam | Jun 14 2022 16:30 utc | 31 “

DunGroanin, great list of how the three letter agencies infiltrate the media.

And don't forget the huge number of freshmen congresspeople in the US congress that have "intelligence" backgrounds. Or have history with the deep state like Pete Buttigeig who worked for McKinsey. Malcolm Nance, darling of the fascist democratic party went to fight in Ukraine worked in Naval Intelligence I believe. They're scattered all throughout the upper levels of US society like the Nazis in the Ukr regime.

Posted by: Boomhauer | Jun 16 2022 0:40 utc | 471

Posted by: fanto | Jun 15 2022 15:18 utc | 452

That's why I qualified it, fanto. Just as I would qualify the word 'liberal'. Any word can be distorted in use. Tread carefully because language is at its best when it can be used flexibly, and English has been a good language for that, incorporating as it does here, many innuendos. Those who pick up on negative aspects can be regarded with appropriate caution. I said what I meant.

Posted by: juliania | Jun 16 2022 2:07 utc | 472

Thank you everyone, great end to this thread.

Hi karlof1@471., interesting thought about oath honouring, if have you written anything on this I would like to read it. I have memory problems so if you have already mentioned anything like this I apologise for appearing ignorant. Cheers

Posted by: Foxbat | Jun 16 2022 18:15 utc | 473

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