Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 28, 2022
Another Zelensky Lie Debunked – White House Says Ukraine Must Give Up Territory

Yesterday I mentioned the burning shopping center in Kremenchuk, Ukraine, of which the Ukrainian president Zelensky falsely claimed that thousand people had been inside.

I asked:

Satellite pictures show that the shopping center is right next to the large Kredmash machine plant. Was that the real target of the attack with the shopping center being an unintended casualty?

It has now been confirmed that the answer to my question is 'yes'.

Today's report on the war by the Russian Defense Ministry says:

On June 27, in Kremenchug (Poltava region), Russian Aerospace Forces launched a high-precision air attack at hangars with armament and munitions delivered by USA and European countries at Kremenchug road machinery plant.

High-precision attack has resulted in the neutralisation of west-manufactured armament and munitions concentrated at the storage area for being delivered to Ukrainian group of troops in Donbass.

Detonation of the storaged munitions caused a fire in a non-functioning shopping centre next to the facilities of the plant.

Ahhh – "don't trust the Russians!" you say. Well, don't trust anyone I say, just scrutinize the facts.

The Ukrainians have published surveillance video from a park catching the moments of the two explosions. A large flash appears and people are running away as some debris falls down.

The park is around an artificial lake with an island in the middle that can be reached by a bridge. There is a small round building on the island.


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Here is a Google satellite view of the whole scene.


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The light gray shopping center roof can be seen south of the large Kredmash machine plant in the center. The small park from which the surveillance videos come is directly north of it. Google has marked it in green as some special recreational space. The factory has direct rail access at its southern side with several rail tracks for loading and unloading machinery. Rail access makes it an ideal space for preparing or repairing heavy weapons. It seems that the railway area was one of the two targets.

Still not convinced? Well, here is video from a Ukrainian TV station taken on the factory grounds. It is showing a crater and the debris of the factory. The areas where it was hit are pretty much destroyed.


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According to the Ukrainian emergence services the attack has caused the death of 16 people and wounded 59. So most of Zelensky's 'thousand' people inside the shopping center must have either survived or never existed at all with the later being the more likely case.

The shopping center was obviously as empty as its large empty parking space I mentioned yesterday. It somehow came on fire after the factory next door was bombed. Those who died were most likely soldiers or factory workers who were preparing 'western' weapons for delivery to the front.

Zelensky's lie has been debunked just as the other horror fictions he has told about Russians.

Meanwhile the White House is preparing for a retreat from Ukraine. CNN headlines:

Biden officials privately doubt that Ukraine can win back all of its territory

The piece is by the 'deranged conspiracy theorist and scandal plagued CIA propagandist' Natasha Bertrand. That makes it an official administration position.

(CNN) – White House officials are losing confidence that Ukraine will ever be able to take back all of the land it has lost to Russia over the past four months of war, US officials told CNN, even with the heavier and more sophisticated weaponry the US and its allies plan to send.

Advisers to President Joe Biden have begun debating internally how and whether Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky should shift his definition of a Ukrainian "victory" — adjusting for the possibility that his country has shrunk irreversibly.

US officials emphasized to CNN that this more pessimistic assessment does not mean the US plans to pressure Ukraine into making any formal territorial concessions to Russia in order to end the war. There is also hope that Ukrainian forces will be able to take back significant chunks of territory in a likely counteroffensive later this year.

That 'counteroffensive later this year' seems very unlikely to me. When the Russian forces see any buildup for one they will destroy it before it can take off.

The Ukraine will not regain any of the territory that the Russians do not want it to regain. It isn't in the position to do so militarily nor through negotiations. It will simply have to accept defeat and give up on the east and south and accept the loss of the source of 70-80% of its former GDP.

All this was completely foreseeable since the very first day of the war.

Comments

@ oldhippie | Jun 29 2022 13:24 utc | 301
Cheers on that. 70% seems awfully high, but certainly the “industrial economy”–as Michael Hudson terms it–is mostly concentrated in the Donbass/Eastern areas of the country. That’s been openly established for quite a few years, i think.
Western Ukraine seems to mostly possess the agricultural and mineral areas of the country–neither of which are to be simply dismissed, but we’ve got Azovstal, Avoztal (?), Lisichansk, Sievierodonetsk, Mariupol, Odessa, Kherson, Kharkhiv, and Zaporizhnia which are all clearly industrial-oriented cities.
I can’t think of any time i’ve ever heard of anything that came from Lviv.

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Jun 29 2022 13:32 utc | 301

Turkey gets what it wanted. Swedish Kurds not happy.
“We will seek the extradition of terrorists,” said Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag.
He called on Finland to hand over six members of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) and another six from the movement of exiled Turkish cleric Fethullah Gulen.
Turkey also wants 11 PKK members and 10 Gulenists to be extradited from Sweden.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61980555

Posted by: dh | Jun 29 2022 13:34 utc | 302

@oldhippie #301
I understand what you’re saying, but Western Ukraine will have sufficient bread to feed itself.
It just won’t have anything else.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2022 13:34 utc | 303

Tweet from Chen Weihua (h/t Alex Christoforou)
source

BRICS has 3.2 billion of population. G7 only 777 million. So who should represent the global community?

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2022 13:36 utc | 304

@whirlX | Jun 29 2022 13:15 utc | 298

A thoughtful read. Thanks.

Posted by: too scents | Jun 29 2022 13:44 utc | 305

@ snake | Jun 29 2022 13:23 utc | 300
the cause for war, and the failure or tyrannies of leadership, to be founded in the intentions of those who control the media
Yes
Until the media is ‘taken to court’ and made to stop its lying, their telling people ‘what everybody knows,’ like the ‘mall attack,’ another case of simply quoting comedian Zelinsky, then we’ll never see progress. I’m thinking of the “interview” I posted above involving liar Blinken and Jake Tapper who could only ask petty questions and not challenge Blinken’s lying statements and answers. Real journalism is mostly dead, and we suffer from it.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 29 2022 13:50 utc | 306

@ h | Jun 29 2022 13:34 utc | 305

Turkey gets what it wanted. Swedish Kurds not happy.
“We will seek the extradition of terrorists,” said Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag.
He called on Finland to hand over six members of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) and another six from the movement of exiled Turkish cleric Fethullah Gulen.
Turkey also wants 11 PKK members and 10 Gulenists to be extradited from Sweden.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61980555

Ooof. The Kurds take another hit.
I wonder if they’re going to be so stupid as to believe it’s the Swedes’ fault, and not the US’s?

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Jun 29 2022 13:51 utc | 307

https://www.corriere.it/esteri/22_giugno_29/vice-segretario-nato-l-alleanza-una-svolta-tecnologia-centrale-modernizzeremo-kiev-8bde51ce-f785-11ec-8547-f7dc9914663d.shtml
(Google Translate)
The Deputy Secretary General of NATO: «The Alliance at a turning point: technology is central. We will modernize Kiev
by Francesca Basso
David van Weel: «Their exercise will be more similar to ours. Many countries were unprepared: now there is a need for huge investments ”
FROM OUR CORRESPONDENT
BRUSSELS “Our last strategic concept dates back to 2010. If you look at the security situation, many things have changed: then Russia was still seen as a partner.” NATO Assistant Secretary General for Emerging Security Challenges, David van Weel, speaks on the eve of the summit.
desc img
David van Weel
Why is the NATO summit in Madrid important?
“In this decade we have witnessed the rise of China and completely new challenges such as climate change or cyber security, new technologies such as artificial intelligence, the use of data. This was supposed to be the year we had to update the strategic concept and look to the next decade. On February 24, the Russian invasion of Ukraine reinforced the need for transformation that we expect will emerge from the summit ».
Will Ukraine and Russia be at the center of the discussions?
«The most important session will be the one in which we will discuss Ukraine and the further support that the allies and the alliance can offer to Kiev in the coming weeks, months, but also in the medium and long term. It is also about how we can help Ukraine become a more West-oriented armed force with more modern equipment. The other sessions will not be devoted to Ukraine or Russia. But Russia is the most imminent threat ».
Moscow raises the level of confrontation when leaders’ summits are underway, as happened last Sunday. Do you expect the same to happen?
«We are prepared for everything with Putin. Because we’ve seen the kind of actions he’s been taking since 2008. And since he started the full-scale invasion of Ukraine. So we are always prepared, but we have no indications on the evolution of events in the coming days ».
NATO countries are returning to spending on defense. Is there a difference in preparation?
“Until recently, fewer than 10 out of 30 countries lived up to the expectation of spending 2% of GDP on defense set at the 2014 Wales summit. These countries were therefore unprepared. We now see the importance of not only having high-quality material, but also a sufficient number of ammunition and logistical support items to be able to withstand a large-scale conflict. This requires a huge investment in equipment and in new technologies and innovation to be able to prepare for collective defense ».
Conventional warfare seemed to be over in Europe. How has this changed your strategic concept?
“We never underestimated that a conflict like this could happen with large-scale conventional forces, we saw Russia invade Georgia in 2008 and Crimea and eastern Ukraine in 2014. At that time we started sending troops to the eastern flank. . In the Baltics we now have a permanent presence of nations. And when the war started in February, we were able to immediately increase the troops on the eastern flank: there are now 150,000 soldiers and hundreds of aircraft, over 100 ships constantly at sea. What is different in Ukraine is that technology is playing an important role: large-scale cyber attacks, use of drones or artificial intelligence to decrypt Russian communications, use of facial recognition to identify who has violated human rights in Bucha.
***********
It’s so bad that I’ll just come right out and say it: that guy hasn’t got a f***ing clue what he’s on about.

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 29 2022 13:53 utc | 308

Having just watched Patrick Armstrong’s report from Sievierodonetsk, that city has been completely destroyed. I am not sure how much of the industrial east, where fighting has occurred, is going to be of any value, it looks like an empty wasteland.

Posted by: Keith | Jun 29 2022 13:58 utc | 309

Western Ukraine, under supervision of some Russian peacekeepers, CAN have a future. They are not bound by all the green regulations of the EU. They could attract a lot of bio industry from the EU, phasing that out with its nitro and carbon limits. They could become a tax haven and expat paradise with low taxes and a huge women surplus. The inhabitants might even think of going to school and learn trades or get an education! The EU will be eager to trade, so if there is a will, there should be a way!

Posted by: Rootman | Jun 29 2022 14:10 utc | 310

re: shopping center
looks like this one may be a mixed interpretation. Geolocators used video supposedly showing one of the impacts. Concluded that the loading dock in the back of the shopping center was hit by one of the missiles.
Assuming the video is real, the camera was on the MedAlians Clinic building, East of the closed Amstor and shopping center. Camera view looking West over a parking lot with blue storage containers and a treeline blocking direct view of the shopping center rear.
The Amstor (apparently the bigger business in the shopping center?) was closed per google, but not clear from Google maps if some of the other smaller stores were closed. Not clear what was located in the back in the loading dock of the closed Amstor either.
May be a “sh#t happens” moment if real. hint: STOP putting military infrastructure in civilian areas!

Posted by: ptb | Jun 29 2022 14:10 utc | 311

… I believe the “NATO general in Azovstal” theory is officially dead.
Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2022 13:28 utc | 303

You take that back, damn you =)
It’s all news copy, nothing else, Cadieu could still be anywhere, in any condition.
Roger Cloutier has definitely turned up (YouTube: San Diego Army ROTC, aboard the USS Midway), Trevor Cadieu is claimed to be back in CA and Eric Olson isn’t even claimed to be anywhere.
None of them was satisfactorily accounted for during or after the siege …. 10 seconds of video chat could have done that.
Absent some convincing backdated proof, the most likely explanation for their furtiveness is that all three of those esprit-de-corps assclowns ended up in the Azovstal rat trap and western MSM has been slow-playing the story as they’re quietly traded back and reintroduce into society.
Put yourself in their shoes for one second!

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 29 2022 14:13 utc | 312

RUSI: “The Return of Industrial Warfare”
https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/return-industrial-warfare

Posted by: JR | Jun 29 2022 14:14 utc | 313

@ anon2020 | Jun 29 2022 13:53 utc | 311

It’s so bad that I’ll just come right out and say it: that guy hasn’t got a f***ing clue what he’s on about.

Par for the course w/NATO these days, no?

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Jun 29 2022 14:18 utc | 314

Journalist: Mr Chancellor, the G7 have committed themselves very explicitly to security guarantees for Ukraine, also for the time after the war. Could you elaborate on which security guarantees those are?
Scholz: Yes. [pauses] [chuckles] [pauses] I could.
[laughter]
Scholz: [pauses] That’ll be all.
Worth watching IMO…

Posted by: Scotch Bingeington | Jun 29 2022 14:18 utc | 315

re: shopping center
Also, the thus-far absence of any pics at what is now claimed as the impact site – back of the building, absence of a crater, and much lighter damage to that building vs the other one – so far unexplained.

Posted by: ptb | Jun 29 2022 14:20 utc | 316

I think that people are wrong about Turkey and Finland/Sweden. Everyone just played that committee game of approving something “in principle”, details to be discussed. It avoids the public row but nothing happens at the end.

Posted by: Patrick Gordon | Jun 29 2022 14:21 utc | 317

Posted by: ptb | Jun 29 2022 14:20 utc | 319
The lie has been around the planet twice before truth gets the boots on.
Had any of the two missiles hit that mall, there would have been no fire, as it would have been annihilated and blasted to pieces. As has been said above, it caught fire about 10 mins after the initial strike and that`s that.

Posted by: CM of Berlin | Jun 29 2022 14:42 utc | 318

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 29 2022 14:13 utc | 315
Trevor Cadieu is claimed to be back in CA
It was reported Cadieu resigned his commission and departed for Ukraine. The resignation was in response to allegations of sexual misconduct against him.
On June 15th the allegations formed the basis of a formal criminal charge against Cadieu.
SOURCE
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/retired-lt-gen-trevor-cadieu-charged-with-two-counts-of-sexual-assault
All recent communications with Cadieu have been by email. Someone with access to Cadieu’s email account stated Cadieu would return to Canada to face trial.
There has been no reporting of his return to Canadian soil.
Other reporting suggests Cadieu was captured when escaping from Avostahl, that he was in regular communication with Z, and his evacuation from Avostahl may have been the reason for the suicidal helicopter missions.
SOURCE
https://southfront.org/did-russia-really-capture-canadian-general-in-mariupol/
It would appear reasonable that the US government, to avoid political embarrassment, would have pressured Z to evacuate US nationals (U.S. General Roger Cloutier, Jr.) to prevent their capture and trial by DPR courts.
The presence of such senior NATO member country officers, in what was believed to be the regional NATO HQ in the period immediately prior to the SMO, and its alleged role as a communications hub assisting with the planning and direction of a 404 assault on the Donbass, would have undermined the NATO media story and raised public doubt about the conduct of the respective governments.
All of the available reporting is dated June 15. No reports of Cadieu’s return to Canada have been found.
SOURCE
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trevor-cadieu-sexual-assault-armed-forces-1.6489854

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 29 2022 14:50 utc | 319

@Keith #312:

Having just watched Patrick Armstrong’s report from Sievierodonetsk, that city has been completely destroyed. I am not sure how much of the industrial east, where fighting has occurred, is going to be of any value, it looks like an empty wasteland.

His name is Patrick Lancaster.

Posted by: S | Jun 29 2022 14:56 utc | 320

@Sushi #322
Cadieu reported to Canadian police in Ottawa on 6/24 according to John Helmer and agreed to a court date in August.
You can’t turn yourself in to police by email.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2022 14:57 utc | 321

@anon2020 #315
I guess conspiracy theorists will place Clouthier, Cadieu etc on the one helicopter that got away.
Whatever.
Cadieu surrendering to Canadian police and having a court appointment is exactly what banal reality looks like.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2022 15:01 utc | 322

@Rootman #313
…not bound by all the green regulations of the EU
I guess you fell victim to the green EU propaganda. If there is anything green, then it is color code RAL 6031, IRL “NATO-Green”. Not what you imply with regard to environmental protection.
Western Ukraine has, especially in the Transkarpathian area, pristine forests which have been for a long time been on EU’s looting list.
The EU wants them to be logged like the national parks in Romania.
The pressure on Ukraine is tremdous. Ukraine wood export ban found illegal in EU. In spite of this pressure from the “Green EU”, Ukraine has up until now resisted and maintained the export ban on unprocessed logs in december last year. I guess that the debt trap the EU has steered UA into will take care of that soon…

Posted by: OttoE | Jun 29 2022 15:09 utc | 323

Patrick Constantine, 28/6/2022 15.30 GMT, #6 …those who like to watch things die from a good safe distance, but not me… [Wow. Seriously?] …so much cold war thinking here. its no better than the cold war thinking of the US state dept warmongers and perverts…
Anyone drawing moral equivalence between Russia’s reluctant, cautious, painstaking, punctilious, rational, defensive operation in the Ukraine now and the USA’s unrelenting, ruthless, indiscriminate slaughter of children and other innocents and destruction of social fabric in Korea, Vietnam, Indonesia, El Salvador, Somalia, Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen, to name but a few, would do well to do some self-reflection about those epithets, warmonger and pervert.

Posted by: Petra | Jun 29 2022 15:19 utc | 324

After Ukraine, the US is going to incite India to go after CN&RU? ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVLzT_1sQPA

Posted by: too scents | Jun 29 2022 15:27 utc | 325

The signed memorandum does not mean that the process of Sweden and Finland joining NATO has been completed, the Turkish Ministry of Justice said.
Posted by: rk | Jun 29 2022 12:57 utc | 291
Can’t say I’m surprised, no need to be clairvoyant to foresee that development.

Posted by: mk | Jun 29 2022 15:31 utc | 326

@ Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2022 13:04 utc | 294

The US will never be bankrupt as it can always print more US dollars to service its US dollar debt.
Nor is debt “reaching escape velocity” – with 8.6% inflation, the $30T US national debt is eroding faster than new debt is piling up.

Dear c1ue, you are talking out your hat.
Disclaimer: I am not financial expert (I imagine is obvious).
I was speaking figuratively – bankruptcy would mean legal relief from debt and the US is not pursuing that option. I meant branrupcy in figurative sense in that it does not have income to service its debt and other expenses.
As the US is “printing” money it is in fact literally (via fed) buying its own debt – this does not reduce debt but creates demand for debt which has the effect of suppressing interest rate. If it were simply to create money (which it would do as ledger entry) and use that to pay debt (or expenses), that would be what is referred to as monetizing the debt – the difference is nuanced and I strongly suspect that what it is doing (loaning itself money via shell corporation) is unconstitutional – so again brankrupt in credibility.
Inflation does not necessarily, have the effect of reducing debt because it has the effect of increasing expenses all else being equal. For example: 10yr treasury rate is increased 50% percent since Biden siezed office.
Moreover the US has completely decimated its manufacturing capabilty/capacity. To reestablish it would be quite expensive, but I suspect it will attempt to do so and will fail – it is a disfunctional enterprise.
I would say you a correct in that the ride down hill is bumpy and not straight line generally – I think generally culminates in war – rabid dog effect.
OK. I will not pursue it further – I have said more than I know aleady.

Posted by: jared | Jun 29 2022 15:39 utc | 327

… Par for the course w/NATO these days, no?
Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Jun 29 2022 14:18 utc | 317

Gods, yes, I ought to be used to it by now but the ferocity of it can sometimes catch one off guard!

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 29 2022 15:42 utc | 328

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Jun 28 2022 14:41 utc | 2
Yes, it was closed:
https://reseauinternational.net/ukraine-non-larmee-russe-na-pas-bombarde-un-centre-commercial-bonde-a-krementchouk/

Posted by: Olivier | Jun 29 2022 15:51 utc | 329

…. All of the available reporting is dated June 15. No reports of Cadieu’s return to Canada have been found.

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 29 2022 14:50 utc | 322

Nice recap.
It’s something I’m trying to follow so I’m pretty sure that I read a comment here, in a previous thread, with the implication that Cadieu was in CA, had presented himself to CA police to make an official statement re. the misconduct charges and that, notably, it’d been done out of sight of cameras (ie. verification).
I can’t find a source for that now, perhaps I misread.

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 29 2022 15:57 utc | 330

@anon2020 #315
I guess conspiracy theorists will place Clouthier, Cadieu etc on the one helicopter that got away.
Whatever.
Cadieu surrendering to Canadian police and having a court appointment is exactly what banal reality looks like.
Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2022 15:01 utc | 325

Anyone who did get out of Azovstal (by helicopter or any other means) would have been available to deny claims of their being trapped in Azovstal in person. Likewise, anyone else alleged to have been trapped in Azovstal who was not so trapped could have easily and convincingly refuted those claims.
Whatever indeed.
Assuming the latest reports of Cadieu being in CA are not just playing-for-time-bs (they wouldn’t lie, would they?) he’s been out of circulation for more than enough time to be captured and then traded back on the quiet.
The time when Cadieu and the others could have refuted claims of their being trapped in Azovstal by them simply turning up somewhere else is long gone. I’m mystified why I should have to point this out to you, given the obvious quality of your posts.
It’d now require some other source of information that could account for their whereabouts since the Azovstal siege. They have presumably been busy since then so that ought not to be too big of an ask.
So yes, whatever, to our furtive, belatedly re-emergent warriors, just don’t mention the war?

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 29 2022 16:30 utc | 331

Posted by: Doug Hillman | Jun 29 2022 4:13 utc | 228
“The power the US wields over its Euro vassals is eerie. Somehow corruption, bribes, threats, extortion, and/or blackmail don’t seem adequate to explain how it can march so many countries into depression and national suicide… This civilizational struggle seems to have a metaphysical dimension to it… Yours and Escobar’s description of how the US has subverted democracy (while pretending to be its champion) and colonized Europe reminds me of…the one ring of power that takes possession of human souls:
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them,
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.”
First, as you hint in your post, the US is not what it pretends to be. For that reason I don’t think it correct to say that ‘the US dominates the EU’ or some such. It’s not really the USA. Furthermore, since the old money in Europe set up the Fed in 1913 one can reasonably argue that the old money is still pulling the strings. (I read somewhere long ago that the CIA was set up by City of London banker networks but have no idea if true or not though something like that is entirely plausible.)
Second, it’s all spiritual always. But it’s also all lots of other things too. We each live in multi-layered realities: family, work, nation, town, civilization, medical, financial, religious, cyber communities and so forth. They are all part of one overall reality – perhaps – but each has its own dynamic and often seem to exist independent of the others. These ‘realities’ are called ‘mandalas’ in old Asian spiritual jargon. A good term actually because mandalas can be described and defined as separate but at the same they are usually interpenetrated by many others as in the examples above.
I believe power comes to nations when they positively align core mandalas such as: spiritual, religious, family, political system, military, commerce, arts and so forth. If you align them well and therefore also align your policies in accord with them well, your presence and actions will carry weight, your people will have confidence in themselves and their leaders and their leaders will have confidence in themselves, the people and The Way which accords with the national character and history. That way lies true power which no amount of narrative sleight of hand can engender, though it can mimic.
Russia seems to be on a roll with aligning many of its core mandalas right now and is, rightly, rising and the rest of the world is responding to this rise and hopefully within the next ten years or less a large number of sovereign states will comprise the new world order, also aligned with many of the core foundational mandalas they share such as a desire for peace, prosperity, vibrant cultures and health of the population and good relations with others and so forth. Such alignment could be said to be the main practical ‘job’ of spirituality in terms of national affairs. If you try to create strong finance and military without good underlying spirituality and stable families, for example, it won’t end well.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 29 2022 16:49 utc | 332

@jared #330
The US never has to earn income to service its US dollar debt (US Treasuries) because it can print dollars.
Legal definition of bankruptcy is irrelevant – this is what sovereign power in the form of currency control means.
Nor, because this is a sovereign situation, is there either a regulating authority or a counterparty that can force something different.
Thus no part of your statement is true.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2022 16:53 utc | 333

@anon2020 #334
If you want to say that Cadieu’s reporting to law enforcement authorities is a sham, that’s up to you.
From my perspective, ever more convoluted theories only indicate a tenacious grip on a failing belief, not any form of reason.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2022 16:57 utc | 334

Posted by: Scotch Bingeington | Jun 29 2022 14:18 utc | 318
Chancellor Scholz apparently mistook the interview for giving a deposition.

Posted by: David Levin | Jun 29 2022 17:11 utc | 335

@c1ue #337
I have seen no reporting, no press release, no photo or video of his supposed arrest. Closest I’ve seen is from the Globe and Mail stating he had been charged:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-senior-military-officer-who-retired-went-to-ukraine-now-charged-with/
_________________________________________
Military police have charged retired lieutenant-general Trevor Cadieu with two counts of sexual assault, three months after the long-time army officer hung up his uniform and headed to Ukraine while still under criminal investigation.
The charges were announced on Wednesday by Canada’s military police chief, Provost Marshal Brig.-Gen. Simon Trudeau, and relate to incidents that are alleged to have taken place in 1994 at the Royal Military College of Canada in Kingston, Ont.
Mr. Cadieu, who has previously denied any wrongdoing, was supposed to take over as commander of the Canadian Army last September. A veteran of Bosnia and Afghanistan, he most recently provided analysis and advice to the chief of the defence staff.
But his appointment as army commander was suspended as military police investigated what was described as “historical allegations” against him, which Mr. Cadieu in a statement at the time described as false.
He then retired in early April as the investigation went on and sources not authorized to comment on his whereabouts said he headed to Ukraine to help defend against Russia’s invasion.
Mr. Cadieu said in a statement: “I have just been advised that I have been charged by the CFNIS [Canadian Forces National Investigation Service].
“I am making arrangements to return to Canada from Ukraine, and I will continue to co-operate with this process, as I have from the start.”
Meanwhile, Brig.-Gen. Trudeau defended the decision to have military police charge Mr. Cadieu in light of retired Supreme Court justice Louise Arbour’s call for the transfer of criminal sexual investigations from military to civilian authorities.
The provost marshal noted Ms. Arbour left open the door to leaving investigations with military police if they were near completion, adding: “As this investigation was near completion, the civilian police agency of concurrent jurisdiction opted not to accept it.”
A similar decision was made in the case of retired vice-admiral Haydn Edmundson. The military’s former head of human resources was charged in December with one count of sexual assault and one count of indecent acts. His trial is set for August, 2023.
Mr. Cadieu’s case will be heard in the civilian court system.
He is one of several senior commanders to be investigated by military police for alleged sexual misconduct in the past two years.
Those allegations have forced a reckoning within the military over its failure to address inappropriate behaviour. They also sparked criticism of the Liberal government’s handling of the issue and calls for more external oversight of the military.
Mr. Cadieu strenuously denied any wrongdoing in a statement last fall, saying: “The allegations are false, but they must be investigated thoroughly to expose the truth.” He said he had provided information to investigators to prove his innocence.
The retired officer also said at the time that he had asked Chief of the Defence Staff General Wayne Eyre to select someone else to serve as Canadian Army commander, adding: “I know that these false claims will, as intended, create doubts about my ability to lead in this environment.”
Mr. Cadieu’s decision to travel to Ukraine followed an order from Gen. Eyre banning serving members of the Canadian Armed Forces from joining the thousands of foreigners who have flocked to the country to help fight.
Russia has reportedly threatened criminal prosecutions against any foreigners captured fighting in Ukraine, while a senior Canadian officer last month raised the spectre of Moscow attempting to use captured foreign fighters for propaganda purposes.

Posted by: Kingsmeg | Jun 29 2022 17:30 utc | 336

Until the media is ‘taken to court’ and made to stop its lying, their telling people ‘what everybody knows,’ like the ‘mall attack,’ another case of simply quoting comedian Zelinsky, then we’ll never see progress.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 29 2022 13:50 utc | 309
For this to succeed, the courts would have to be honest. But if the judges are appointed by the executive branch, then the honesty of the former is largely a function of the honesty of the latter. And if the executive branch were honest, then the mainstream media would be less constrained in what they report, presumably leading to greater diversity of viewpoints.
So it seems to me that to a large extent, if the problem of “lying media” could have been solved, it wouldn’t have arisen.

Posted by: David Levin | Jun 29 2022 17:31 utc | 337

The only source for Trevor Cadieu’s arrest are from Ottawa Citizen reporter David Pugliese, on June 24:
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/anger-grows-as-canadian-military-officers-rally-around-general-accused-of-sexual-assault
He recently returned from Ukraine, was arrested and then was released. Cadieu is expected to appear in provincial court in Kingston in August to face two counts of sexual assault.

Posted by: Kingsmeg | Jun 29 2022 17:37 utc | 338

Posted by: Keith | Jun 29 2022 13:58 utc | 312
“Having just watched Patrick Armstrong’s report from Sievierodonetsk, that city has been completely destroyed. I am not sure how much of the industrial east, where fighting has occurred, is going to be of any value, it looks like an empty wasteland.”
China has mastered the art of building cities for millions in a matter of months. Some Middle Eastern countries have already hired them for this purpose. Once this is over, quite possibly descendants of the Great Khan may once again be crawling all over the Ukrainian steppes but this time as builders rather than unwanted conquerors!

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 29 2022 17:44 utc | 339

while a senior Canadian officer last month raised the specter of Moscow attempting to use captured foreign fighters for propaganda purposes.
Posted by: Kingsmeg | Jun 29 2022 17:30 utc | 339
If they are there why not. I think it’s the smart thing to do.
If they are of very high rank I would do a package deal to free Viktor Bout.

Posted by: Tom_12 | Jun 29 2022 17:46 utc | 340

Pacifica Advocate @ 304
When Lvov was Lemberg it was roughly 1/3 German, 1/3 Jewish, 1/3 Polish and was a civilized place. On the mainline of vaudeville together with Warsaw and Berlin, possibly even outranking New York. Of course all that is gone.
Check the agricultural maps again. There is agriculture in west of Ukraine. The main production and certainly the main production for export is all east of Dnieper.
I’ve no idea how the 70% number has been calculated. Can only say I’ve seen it a dozen times now from disparate sources. Remember that while Kiev is large it is about as productive as Washington D.C. Without a country to rule Kiev will be a ghost town.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 29 2022 17:57 utc | 341

Pacifica Advocate
One more thought to add to my 344. Wish I could give credit to the barfly who posted this a few days back, it is brilliant, invaluable. Tried to find original posting but failed.
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP81-01043R002300220007-1.pdf
This is 1957 CIA report on operations inside Ukraine. All sorts of good info. One item I will point to is that Ukrainians, those who identify themselves as Ukrainians, are nearly all peasants. 89% of self reporting Ukrainians lived in the country, only 11% lived in cities. We can respect peasants and indigenous culture, there is nothing there on which to base anything but rural life and an agricultural economy. The middle class city Azovites I see are scum. Given that Ukraine has begun the selloff of land to Cargill, Bayer, Blackrock, and that such would continue unless all of Ukraine becomes Russia, nothing is coming but fourth world. Or Russian dominance.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 29 2022 18:11 utc | 342

SUGGESTION for b. (his lower case):
The enforced use of Ukrainian spelling for traditional Russian names is an important plank of NATO’s propaganda platform. On MOA, it could be useful to provide a glossary to “rectify the names” so we know what we are talking about (also in a longer historical context – as late as 2000, there would have been virtually no publications in English about “Kyiv.”
Here are a few examples to get started:
PLACE NAMES
TRADITIONAL NEWSPEAK REMARKS
Kiev Kyiv
Kharkov Kharkiv
Lvov Lviv Will be re-renamed Lwow by
Poland
Severodonetsk Sievierodonetsk (sever means North)
Lugansk Luhansk See note below re g/h
NAMES OF PEOPLE
TRADITIONAL NEWSPEAK REMARKS
Vladimir A. Zelenskyy Volodymyr Zelenskyy Russian speaker,
born during Soviet
era. Volodymyr is
the Ukrainian
version, not used
by Russian
speakers.
Igor Kolomoisky Ihor Kolomoyskyi Billionaire sponsor
of Zelenskyy
NOTE: The Cyrillic letter Г is often pronounced as a guttural h in Ukrainian, hence transliterated as h in English. The spelling in Ukrainian remains unchanged from Russian in this regard. This accounts for Ukrainianized names such as Sergey => Serhey, Grigoriy => Hrihoriy, etc.

Posted by: Pacific Observer | Jun 29 2022 18:44 utc | 343

Re: Speculation regarding Cadieu at Azovstal.
In NATO and western militaries, Generals are never right on the front lines. With modern advances in remote sensing and communications, there is no need.
Also, the timeline of Cadieu’s initial departure from Canada to Ukraine, would have him arrive while Mariupol’s siege was fait accompli. That would make no sense.
He would have been stationed in a NATO base in Poland, Romania or Turkey.
His just announced replacement, retired General Rick Hillier, has been tasked with getting NATO donated equipment to the front lines with minimal losses. I expect that was Cadieu’s job as well.

Posted by: Opport Knocks | Jun 29 2022 18:50 utc | 344

“Wish I could give credit to the barfly who posted this a few days back, it is brilliant, invaluable.”
Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 29 2022 18:11 utc | 345

Oldhippie,
It’s from the newsbits on Ukraine thread.
It was first put out by Objective Observer and then I gave him a shout.
Yes, it’s brilliant and extremely informative.
People who want to know the history of the separatists or learn about the terrain, railroads,
or general history should exit the mall and get into this.

Hey barflies! … I just came across the following link about CIA operational planning in Ukraine in 1957.
I’ve only skimmed and scrolled through it…interesting stuff.
Posted by: Objective Observer | Jun 27 2022 23:49 utc | 117 (& 125)
Thanks Agent OO !!
Interesting stuff, indeed. LOTS of it. History, strategic targets, footnotes, etc.
(Just in case anyone is finished with their shopping at the mall.)
Directly to pdf: pdf
Posted by: waynorinorway | Jun 28 2022 7:15 utc | 187

Posted by: waynorinorway | Jun 29 2022 19:23 utc | 345

Posted by: Arganthonios | Jun 29 2022 11:12 utc | 279

.The power the US wields over its Euro vassals is eerie – Agree. It is one of the great metaphysical questions of our age. I will never forget Tony Blair sucking up to Bush and even adopting his stance and ‘Cowboy Walk’! It must be a western collective spiritual illness…
Posted by: Geraint ap Iorwerth | Jun 29 2022 10:56 utc | 276
Until I see the public results of a full autopsy performed on one of these mannequins, I won’t be 100% convinced that they don’t have a cluster of alien slugs where their brain was meant to be.
It’s extremely improbable, yes, but this many “””leaders””” being SO inept, spineless, corrupt, and in lockstep is also quite improbable….

Hah! Of course, the constant here are the interests profiting from said corruption. And when you consider the vast resources these interests have to promote selected candidates, weigh on the narrative and influence the electoral process, you’re already halfway there. Then you have your assortment of carrots and sticks to steer the policy in the right direction. Incidentally, we get occasional glimpses of this backstage action such as the Snowden leaks and Merkel’s phone tapping. Corbin’s eviction is an example of another kind of organized action.
The other pillar behind this influence is the manipulation of the general (ie. voting) public through the exclusive control of the narrative. Again, we get occasional glimpses behind the curtain as was the case with the Integrity Initiative affair. I see the backtracking of the two main opposition parties in the recent French legislative elections as an example of the overwhelming force exerted by the interests holding the narrative high ground. Simply put, whereas they both had displayed independent views on foreign policy and, specifically, perception of Russia, they were browbeaten into condemning Russia and reformulating their views in accordance with the dominant evil-evil-belligerent-Putin narrative.

Posted by: robin | Jun 29 2022 19:43 utc | 346

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 29 2022 10:12 utc | 268

One of which effects – and arguably the most masterful thus far – has been in the theater of information and narrative. At first many were saying RF was hopelessly outmatched; we aren’t hearing that any more. In many ways the conflict is Truth & Reality vs Lies & Fantasy. As the West’s pervasive deceitfulness is progressively revealed so also is her collective influence diminished and the G7 meeting was rightly perceived as a latter days Conference of foolishly grinning Clowns.

I suspect that the reason we aren’t hearing about it, at least on this board, is because many people who are actually aware of the lies and fantasy are also loath to recognize any sort of success by the party they despise.
My own observation is that the narrative is still unchallenged and as strong as ever.
What is your own experience on this?

Posted by: robin | Jun 29 2022 20:20 utc | 347

@ Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2022 16:53 utc | 336
So then the US does not need to produce anything to have a thriving economy – it can simply print money and Janet is your uncle.
Right, then. Ta!

Posted by: jared | Jun 29 2022 20:27 utc | 348

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2022 0:02 utc | 177

@karlof1 #140
Tin is a commodity – which the West is no doubt short of.
More like a Wind Curtain: composed of the hot air which the West has unending resources of.

The Empire’s end-goal, at least as I picture it, is more of a ring of fire.
A long term plan to maximize ash and rubble anywhere East of Lisbon.

Posted by: robin | Jun 29 2022 20:28 utc | 349

@anon2020 #334
If you want to say that Cadieu’s reporting to law enforcement authorities is a sham, that’s up to you.
From my perspective, ever more convoluted theories only indicate a tenacious grip on a failing belief, not any form of reason.
Posted by: c1ue | Jun 29 2022 16:57 utc | 337

Roger Cloutier, Trevor Cadieu and Eric Olson were all loudly and publicly alleged to be trapped in Azovstal during the siege. Not one of them came forward during or after the siege.
Cloutier’s definitely back in the US (4th June, at least) but not a word on his alleged capture by RF-allied forces (him a high ranking US/NATO general).
Cadieu’s claimed to be back in CA but it’s all news copy or the word of CA officialdom, not necessarily false but not conclusive.
I can find even less on Olson: fact checkers claim to debunk a photo of him in a line of Mariupol prisoners, never once acknowledging that a verified word from the guy would obviate the need to argue the merits of photoanalysis.
Even if / when Cloutier, Cadieu and Olson are all confirmed free and at large, they will still be pursued by the question of where they were during and immediately after the Azovstal siege.
Anyone who wasn’t trapped in Azovstal will have a whole history of work and communication, colleges and friends, with whom they interacted, over the period in question.
A history certain to contain, in every case, at least one point of reference that can credibly attest to their location.

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 29 2022 20:32 utc | 350

My own observation is that the narrative is still unchallenged and as strong as ever.
What is your own experience on this?
Posted by: robin | Jun 29 2022 20:20 utc | 349
Well, the last few weeks have been getting more of my information from this bar than anywhere else given how much is contributed here from so many different sources. I do check in with the Saker site every day. His following was deeply concerned the first few weeks and indeed am not sure that Andrei didn’t give himself a nervous breakdown he was so upset about it. I seem to remember many here being concerned back in March. But I don’t follow any MSM except sometimes Tucker’s opening to get a sense of how the States is faring – though he talks too fast for my taste.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 29 2022 20:33 utc | 351

The Empire’s end-goal, at least as I picture it, is more of a ring of fire. A long term plan to maximize ash and rubble anywhere East of Lisbon.
Posted by: robin | Jun 29 2022 20:28 utc | 351 !!
Looks like East and West are going to decouple for a while because the two systems are mutually incompatible. The West is headed for Davoslandia – technofascist control with Huxley-like happy talk brainwashing which some call ‘soft fascism.’ The East is going for modern industrialised no funny money good old fashioned development with stable governments and cultures.
So I think the goal of the West right now is to collapse their polities and then Build Back Better to a system shared by all, a EU model for the entire axis run by technocrats – maybe huge server farms and Big Tech operators based in Galicia put together by the same oligarchs who gave us Zelensky and this Ukraine conflict?
Russia and China will be happy. The Western powers that be will be happy. They just don’t get to run the world. But I believe that writing has been easily readable for a while now and this current conflict is more about making the divorce happen in public perception and also providing a perfect reason for the upcoming collapse.
My little fantasy anyway…

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 29 2022 20:40 utc | 352

Scorpion @ 354
I agree with you that East and West will decouple.
My point is that the Empire has projected where that divide will inevitably lie in the future. It is acting today to mitigate the impact of an unfavourable power balance.
My concern is with the western end of the East which is actively pursuing self-immolation.

Posted by: robin | Jun 29 2022 21:03 utc | 353

Posted by: robin | Jun 29 2022 21:03 utc | 355
Related article by Ehret yesterday:
“Today’s world is faced with two possible future systems. On the one hand, there is a multipolar approach in defense of sovereign nation states premised on long-term thinking, scientific optimism and win-win cooperation stands as one possible outcome; on the other, there is a unipolar paradigm of world government, depopulation and zero-sum thinking.”
https://unlimitedhangout.com/2022/06/investigative-reports/the-revenge-of-the-malthusians-and-the-science-of-limits/
I think there are two mutually incompatible visions and the hegemons in the West are just going to have to accept that they don’t get to rule the whole world.
That said, Russia, China and India are all over social credit application development and will no doubt soon have digital ID and currency systems soon so there still might be a one world system fairly soon but split into a few separately administered jurisdictions.
I don’t understand the meaning of: “My concern is with the western end of the East which is actively pursuing self-immolation.”

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 29 2022 21:09 utc | 354

Re: Speculation regarding Cadieu at Azovstal.
In NATO and western militaries, Generals are never right on the front lines. With modern advances in remote sensing and communications, there is no need.
Also, the timeline of Cadieu’s initial departure from Canada to Ukraine, would have him arrive while Mariupol’s siege was fait accompli. That would make no sense.
He would have been stationed in a NATO base in Poland, Romania or Turkey.
His just announced replacement, retired General Rick Hillier, has been tasked with getting NATO donated equipment to the front lines with minimal losses. I expect that was Cadieu’s job as well.
Posted by: Opport Knocks | Jun 29 2022 18:50 utc | 346

I agree that NATO personnel, especially generals, shouldn’t be anywhere near the front, let alone in non-NATO Ukraine, facing superpower RF. The real question is whether Cloutier, Cadieu and Olson were in Ukraine, became trapped in Azovstal and subsequently captured by RF-allied forces. These are very different points. The fact that they shouldn’t have been there in the first place is comical given the ubiquitous and scandalous NATO conduct in Ukraine, both fomenting and prolonging the conflict. Let’s not choke on straw men.
As far as I’m aware, the timeline was offered after allegations of Cadieu being trapped in Azovstal became a matter of public debate. Again, as far as I’m aware, there is nothing in the public domain (old press releases, social media posts etc) that credibly puts Cadieu a safe distance from Mariupol when it was besieged.
More accurately Cadieu should have been stationed in a NATO base, assuming he was acting in an official NATO capacity, as opposed to serving in Ukraine voluntarily, as CA authorities themselves claim.
What Cadieu’s job actually was, whether he was there in an official capacity or on his own initiative, there doesn’t seem to be a credible way to verify this, beyond merely accepting the claims of CA/UA/NATO who have every reason to cover up their own failings.
Again, Roger Cloutier, Trevor Cadieu and Eric Olson were all loudly and publicly alleged to be trapped in Azovstal during the siege. Not one of them came forward during or after the siege.
As / when they do turn up, they should be vigorously pursued to account for their whereabouts during and after the Azovstal siege. It should be possible for them to find verifiable points of reference within that period that will satisfy any reasonable party.

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 29 2022 21:14 utc | 355

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 29 2022 21:09 utc | 356

I don’t understand the meaning of: “My concern is with the western end of the East which is actively pursuing self-immolation.”

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I am referring to Europe as an intentional target of the Empire. It just isn’t aware of this yet as it races toward bankruptcy, actively severing all political and trade relations essential for the long term.

Posted by: robin | Jun 29 2022 21:29 utc | 356

Maybe not…

Posted by: Cool Xenu | Jun 29 2022 21:58 utc | 357

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I am referring to Europe as an intentional target of the Empire. It just isn’t aware of this yet as it races toward bankruptcy, actively severing all political and trade relations essential for the long term.
Posted by: robin | Jun 29 2022 21:29 utc | 358
Gotcha. I doubt this. I think the mutual goal of the current Western leadership network is to collapse their respective polities and Build Back Better. So whether by accident or secretly coordinated design, both Russia and China and EU and USA all want the same thing: collapse of the West. Maybe Eurasia has complete outfoxed the West as seems to be the case since the SMO and sanctions kicked off, or maybe this is a mutually agreed upon conflict providing justification for an upcoming financial and political crisis which will demand emergency solutions during which usual constitutional checks and balances are suspended and an entirely different way of doing things might be imposed.
The Western model is now fascist; the Eurasian model is a hybrid comprising democratic, socialist and strong authoritarian elements. It certainly seems to be working well in China with their gi-normous population: their state seems politically stable even though they have more street demonstrations per capita than any other nation (read years ago, no idea of true), they make big decisions quickly and move into implementation and completion of vast infrastructure and other endeavors (they can build cities for 10,000,000 faster than the US can agree on repairing a single bridge on an interstate highway built over 50 years ago). They are also creating private sector millionaires at an unprecedented rate.
Part of this is timing: just as the US was on a quasi-permanent boom (apart from lapses caused by corrupt banking-finance oligarchies) because of terrific upside room due to population growth, lots of real estate and the industrial-technological revolution, so China has the opportunity to bring 1.4 billion out of third world poverty. That number is probably halved now with the other half in the middle class and beginning to create the world’s largest internal consumer market; they still have hundreds of millions to raise up to that level so they have terrific upside potential. Once they are all raised up – 20 years? – then things will get tougher. Meanwhile, they are managing an extremely dynamic time with relative stability. Certainly no Western polity could have done what they have done, but no Western polity has over a billion people because their systems are always too greedy and corrupt and keep falling to piece long before they can get that big. The Chinese have been learning this for two millenia. We only just got started.
Russia is tiny in comparison but still larger than any single European state and also exists over 11 time zones so are extremely wealthy per capita whatever the US punditry says. They have superlative defense so not an easy nut to crack. The US has three hundred million but has been a hot mess since…… you tell me, feels like forever. A wild ride, rarely stable two decades in a row, put it that way. Europe had a shot with the EU to grow into a 500+ million civilizational bloc but the elites were too corrupt to manage it correctly and it’s now more of a problem than a solution. Pity. They are about to pay! I think they could still chart a different course but they are going to have to devolve back to sovereign states first for quite some time.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 29 2022 22:34 utc | 358

@Scorpion #354

So I think the goal of the West right now is to collapse their polities and then Build Back Better to a system shared by all

There is nothing in the entire history of the West that makes me think this is the case.

Posted by: Kingsmeg | Jun 29 2022 23:22 utc | 359

Russia hasn’t “already failed” rather it is accomplishing its strategic objectives and NATO is breaking up, never mind Blinken’s memory. NATO can’t decide on new sanctions plus winter is coming (gas). — #209 and 218 above
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 29 2022 3:34 utc | 222
NATO is “stronger than ever”, with impressive show of force visible in leader mumbling timid opposition and joining the chorus. The loss would be if a member country will loose pro-NATO government. Macron and friends won twice, and I am not sure what country can crack in the near future, except for the little Hungary where Orban won decisively this year.
Perhaps Russia indeed needs a long war, lasting through the winter. Discontent should have time to brew and culminate. That may explain the war calendar. For a short war plan, winter start would be better, but for a long war, it is better to leave it for Act III or Act IV.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 29 2022 23:55 utc | 360

waynorinorway @ 347, oldhippie @ 345
Thanks for the shout outs…glad to finally provide something more directly related to the threads at the bar.
I have been reading the sections where the CIA analyzes the parts of Ukraine which oppose/support the USSR/Russia. The CIA (thus the US government planning apparatus) clearly knew (and knows) that the entire southern (Odessa to Kherson) and eastern parts of Ukraine (Donbass) is either culturally Russian, ethnically Russian, or supports the Russian (USSR back then) government. The document also clearly shows that the CIA was planning operations for western Ukraine at that time and this probably connects to the ‘stay behind’ operations connected to Operation Gladio (I’ve just purchased a few books about this topic).
Also, I was just listening to the Multipolarista podcast where I learned about this interesting article from January 2022 re: CIA/US planning and involvement in preparation for war with Russia pre-SMO. Another interesting read.
Link to Yahoo article re: CIA in Ukraine pre-SMO
Cheers!

Posted by: Objective Observer | Jun 30 2022 0:23 utc | 361

Something is amiss in this analysis. Using Google maps, I’ve located the New Line Hypermarket. It’s SE of the industrial complex. All rail lines come in from the NE. It appears MoA has taken a screen shot and rotated it. There is no reason to do that. But things don’t match up well regardless of orientation.

Posted by: Cesar Jeopardy | Jun 30 2022 4:37 utc | 362

Objective Observer 363
Thank you.
Will here point out that the CIA said in that 1957 report no notion of Ukrainian identity or Ukrainian nation existed before 1880. That the tale about Bogdan Khmelnitsky and 1654 is just rubbish, although useful rubbish because many in Ukraine believe it.
This has been the subject of hundreds of posts at this forum. Most here are immovably anchored to normalcy bias and will never concede what CIA saw as a commonplace 65 years ago. Normalcy bias says there is this big area on the map labeled Ukraine so it must have always existed and must be a real country.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 30 2022 9:04 utc | 363

“That the tale about Bogdan Khmelnitsky and 1654 is just rubbish, although useful rubbish because many in Ukraine believe it.”
Wiki: he Pereiaslav Agreement[1] (Ukrainian: Перея́славська рáда, romanized: Pereiaslavska Rada, lit. ’Pereiaslav Council’, Russian: Переясла́вская рáда), was an official meeting that convened for ceremonial pledge of allegiance by Cossacks to the Tsar of Russia in the town of Pereiaslav, in central Ukraine, in January 1654. The ceremony took place concurrently with ongoing negotiations that started on the initiative of Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky to address the issue of the Cossack Hetmanate with the ongoing Khmelnytsky Uprising against the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and which concluded the Treaty of Pereiaslav (also known as the March Articles[2]). The treaty itself was finalized in Moscow in April 1654 (in March according to the Julian calendar).
Ukrainians Cossacks rebelled against Poland in 1648, lead by Khmelnnitsky and other Ukrainian members of szlachta (like Polish nobility, except much more numerous, kind of like gentry having formally equal rights with aristocrats). The significance of 1654 is that it cemented the separation of Ukraine east of Dniepr + Kiev from Poland, BUT as a part of Russian Empire, with autonomy that was abolished after Cossack leaders rebelled against Russia, allied with Swedes and were clobbered in Poltava battle ca. 1710.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 30 2022 11:01 utc | 364

Piotr Berman @ 366
Poltava was Peter The Great versus Carl Gustaf/Charles XII. The defeated army of Carl Gustaf plus Mazepa was all of 1500 men, with the Mazepa forces by far the smaller part of that.
The szlachta may have been numerous compared to ranks of Polish nobility, they were not much. Horsemen of the steppe and all the romance that comes with that. Absolute zero significance for what would be Ukraine. It was not “Ukrainian Cossacks” because there was no Ukraine and no Ukrainians. They were Cossacks. It was not “Ukraine east of Dnieper” because there was no Ukraine and would be no Ukraine for another two centuries. Get it straight, there was no Ukraine. Ukraine begins with 1880s emigré fantasies in Chicago and Vienna. It became a fantasy with some real world aspects during the Russian civil war after the Revolution.
All attempts to read “Ukraine ” backwards into history are Nazi propaganda.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 30 2022 11:52 utc | 365

Last night I said “something was amiss.” I was right. I was looking at the wrong manufacturing plant and market. Plenty of similarities between the two. But based on my locating the correct site, I think MoA’s analysis is correct. Mea culpa. As they say “trust but verify.”

Posted by: Cesar Jeopardy | Jun 30 2022 17:55 utc | 366

Ukraine will be a landlocked nation. If it exists at all. This will end cleanly when the Ukraine military leadership puts a bullet in Zilinski Head. As a side note Latvia’s days are numbered it may be a year or two but they are as gone as records made of WAX at this point. Latvia has shown itself to be a grave threat to Russia and will not be let to stand. Remember it is alway best to get along with your neighbors.

Posted by: nightdipper | Jul 1 2022 18:24 utc | 367

@ “Posted by: snake | Jun 29 2022 13:23 utc | 300”

“What would happen if an international body were to be created that could make and enforce rules that would make content tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?”

The problem often is that different sides involved in events that the news reports on disagree on what took place. And often there isn’t enough evidence publicly available to independently establish the truth. Although that does seem to have become more common thanx to the internet and modern computer and camera technology.
So IMO the best way to approach topics/events with large disagreements (sometimes diametrically opposed) between various parties on what really took place is to present all the different versions from the disagreeing parties and the arguments both sides offer to support their version.
Creating an authority on reality and mandating a certain version of a story as the one and only truth is a recipe for disaster. It is what all the infamous historical evil empires/dictators/repressive regimes claimed to be doing. Radios where prohibited by Nazi Germany in occupied countries. Because they broadcasted wrong information.

Posted by: GoverntheMente | Jul 3 2022 3:14 utc | 368

> When the Russian forces see any buildup for one they will destroy it before it can take off.
Reportedly exactly what happenned yesterday night

Posted by: Arioch | Jul 9 2022 2:22 utc | 369