Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 2, 2022
Why Shouldn’t Russia Threaten US Carriers?

by Reasonable Peacekeeper

Sergei Lavrov stated that Russia does not consider itself to be at war with NATO. But actually, NATO, let’s say the US, is at war. Russia makes steady, though slow progress in Ukraine, and there are great risks when the U.S. continues to deliver more sophisticated weapons. I see two principal problems here:

  1. The Empire can wage war without skin in the game (Nassim Taleb). Printing their worthless fiat money does not hurt anyone; the military-industrial complex continues to make profit instead. For them, it is still a war without real cost.
  2. The absence of skin in the game leads to a situation where nobody takes responsibility, there is no incentive for that. With a president with advanced dementia, there is not even anyone to talk to reasonably.

Thus, by acting relatively mildly and measured as Russia did so far, it will never stop the empire’s war machine from escalating. This may lead to Armageddon. Russia therefore needs to play out its strength and point to the weaknesses of the enemy.

If the U.S. continues to help Ukraine inflicting damage on Russia (sinking of "Moskva", explosions in Russia), publicly threatening the U.S. carriers and sinking one of them must therefore be an option. With its hypersonic missiles, Russia can do that and the U.S. does not have the means to prevent that. The consequences would be the following:

  1. The risk of nuclear escalation is not higher, on the contrary. Europeans will whine and cry about Article 5 implementation, but beyond rhetoric, they can do nothing. The president cannot go nuclear for the loss of one carrier, because he risks the annihilation of his country. Escalating conventionally would put their entire fleet at risk.
  2. The US fleet is the symbol of their global dominance, such an act would demonstrate once and for all that this dominance has ended, something that has not sunk in into the U.S. public yet. A political rethinking may start once everyone realizes the vulnerability of their continent.
  3. The threatening of U.S. ships would sharpen the already existing conflict between the Pentagon and the warmongers in the State Department. Ideally, U.S. Navy commanders could revolt against getting sacrificed for the war hysteria in their homeland.

European leaders are stupid, coward and incompetent, but at the end, they are vassals. The villains are in Washington. There will be no peace until the empire gets at least a bloody nose. Waiting for the economic collapse, the Chinese strategy, may come too late.


b here:

I personally disagree with the above.

The sinking of a U.S. carrier would be propagandized by U.S. and 'western' media as another 9/11 moment. It would have the same belligerent consequences. The U.S. would most likely intensify its Ukrainian proxy war against Russia by committing NATO ground forces to Ukraine, Belarus, Transnistria, Moldova, Serbia and elsewhere in Russia's near abroad. It would also intensify sabotage acts within Russia.

The escalation potential of all of that is incalculable. The risk of global nuclear annihilation would sharply increase.

The most effective short term way to retaliate for U.S. involvement is likely to personally harm U.S. warmongers, like the Kagan Nuland duo or Congress hawks like Adams and Kinzinger. These folks are cowards when it comes to their life. Put THEIR skin into the game and things will change. Russia does not have the capabilities to do such but there are people for hire who do.

The Russian president Vladimir Putin is a very mindful man. I am sure that he and his team have thought through potential counter measures and decided to activate those that will harm the U.S. in the longer term. Their plan is to convince the deep state in the U.S., especially the rich people who own Biden, as well as the Pentagon and the CIA,  that continuing the war will, over time, be more harmful to their aims than to Russia's.

Comments

I concur with B.
2ndGen Pacific 7thFlt Sailor here. Ex-Officer and a Gulf Warzone Convoy Vet (1st Responder to the Stark Incident).
***
RUS have been keeping an Eye on USA Carrier/Amphib Strike Groups (CSGs/ASGs? Used to be called CBGs in my day) for Decades. A SUN Naval Defense Line before IND during the IND-PAK Wars kept the AngloMuricans from Intervening. RUS were more Defensive after the Collapse of the SUN; but have developed their Cruise, Theater Ballistics (TBMs), Anti-Satellite(ASAT) and now (SubOrbital/Orbital) Hypersonics which give them a Conventionals-Only Advantage over the Rest of the World.
In Other Words – RUS can destroy the Military, MIC, and Civil Infrastructure of EVERY OTHER NATION-STATE IN THE WORLD; and do so without having to venture far off from their Territories.
Without putting Boots on Foreign Ground. Without Carriers.
AngloMurican-ZionistMasons HATE that knowing that they WILL get Destroyed in a Nuclear -or- a Conventional War against RUS.
This is why UKR and EU are being used to Antagonize RUS.
Economic Sanctions/Trade Boycotts, Monetary Markets/Banking/Currency Dumps/Foreign Reserve Seizure, 5thColumn/ColorRevoRiots/Trans-Atlantic Advocacy, and Proxy Wars are what the Zionist-Mason Sociopaths of the Hegemony were waging against RUS, CHN, ex+present Colonies, and Subjugated Vassals (DEU/JPN/KOR), and De Facto Vassals (CHE, Rest-of-NATO-and-EU, PetroUSD, USD-as-CountryCurrency).

Anyone think FRA are “Independent”? Amphib Ship Mistral Cancellation, Sarkozy the Tribal, Jewish Banking Garçon Macron, Le Pen having a Jewish-Tribal Spouse(their mutual choice; but she’s family now ^_^)
The Jewish-Tribals not only have a Centuries-long War Against Russia; but have managed to Financially Control GBR+USA+FRA along with their Fellow Western Plutarchy.
Not all Jewish-Tribals are Zionists; but for the Sake of Arguments, the Tribals and their Eretz-Yisra’El are binding wherever they live. Not All Zionists are Freemasons; but ALL Freemasons are Zionists by Definition (for the General Public, they claim to be Tribal-Ideological Descendants of King Solomon’s Stone Temple Masons).
Zionists, Jewish-Tribals, and Freemasons are intertwined.

The Zionist-Mason Hegemony (via their Russia-Hating Jewish-Tribal Led+Owned Factions [Kolomoiskyy_Owner-of-Zelenskyy/Biden/Bandera-Nazi, Soros-Schwartz_OpenSociety+ColorRevoRiots, Blinken(Soros Family Friend)/Nudelman-Khagan (CNAS/PNAC ZioCon)] have overplayed their hand in their Current Attempts to Collapse, Subjugate, Disassemble, and Exploit/Consume Russian Peoples and Assets.
The Hegemony Failed to Collapse RUS. RUS made half-hearted attempts to be Self-sufficient outside of the Hegemony; but those attempts helped in surviving the Economic Surge – mainly in part to IND and CHN not joining the Hegemony’s Sanctions; but buying up RUS Exports.
CHN, the Other Major Economy the Hegemony want to Own – have grown enough in their Public-Private_Finance+Industrial+Technological Sectors – as well as in their Military Capabilities not only to Defend their Territories but to Project Their Power to Defend their Trade+GeoPolitical Interests abroad by their now “Blue Water” Ocean Traversing Navy. CHN’s Upper+Middle Class Consumers will soon “out-number and out-consume” USA+EU Counterparts.
RUS already have Targeted USA+NATO Military Assets for Immediate Responses. No need for RUS to sink USN Carriers unless those Carriers are attacking Russians, Novo-Russia Secessionist Peoples, Territories, Assets, or Military.
Targeting AUKUS Carriers+Amphibs are what CHN, PRK, and/or IRN will most likely do since Carriers will be required in those Theaters.

Posted by: IronForge | May 2 2022 14:12 utc | 101

IMHO Putin’s quandary, and that of anyone else in dealing with the agreement incapable US/EU/ZATO is as follows:
“When I am Weaker than you, I ask you for Freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am Stronger than you, I take away your Freedom because that is according to my principles.”
― Frank Herbert, Children of Dune
IWO leverage the virtues of your opponent against them
“By deception thou shalt make war”
And if that is the case, we’ve been at war for some time now… most just don’t know it… yet

Posted by: ianMoone | May 2 2022 14:14 utc | 102

The next big showdown will be over Finland, in my opinion. Its neutrality was part of its guarantees to the Soviet Union after WWII, from which Finland emerged much too unscathed, thanks to Soviet beneficence.
The Finnish border is only about 100 miles or so from St. Petersburg. Finland in NATO would mean NATO bases — and nukes — that distance from Russia’s second-largest city.
Russia probably won’t accept this.
Sweden and Finland meet tomorrow with Germany (the last country Russia wants to see these two meeting with to discuss joining NATO) and I see little chance, though one exists, that Finland will go back on joining NATO. Before that can happen, it will probably be attacked in a most brutal fashion. Russia does not have the conventional forces to overwhelm Finland, so the attack will probably consist in tactical nuclear weapons eliminating all Finnish military targets.

Posted by: line islands | May 2 2022 14:18 utc | 103

S@71 Is right. The solution to the current problem lies in the awakening and self defending actions of the people of the USA and NATO. It is they, as much as the people of the Donbas who are in Imperialism’s sights. It is they who have seen their living standards decline consistently since 1970. It is they whose social safety nets have been removed, their efficient and functioning public education systems privatised; their Health Services (the UK’s NHS being the exemplar) run down and handed over to private profiteers; their Trade Unions smashed by laws restricting the freedom to withdraw labour, display solidarity and govern themselves.
After half a century of waging war on the working people, de-industrialisation and debt peonage it is the people of the NATO countries who are called upon to act. So long as they twiddle their thumbs and suck in the candy coated war propaganda, obsess about sex and identity politics and accept the increasing number of beggars, homeless people and the precarious conditions they reflect, imperialism, finding them to be a conquered subject population, will be fee to play with the lives of those in other lands, torturing in the Donbas, starving kids in Venezuela, chasing Indians in Brazil and Bolivia, killing workers with the guts to stand up for themselves in Colombia.
We are not spectators, we are the cattle the warmongers milk. The Full Spectrum Domination, which they fantasise about imposing on the entire globe is already imposed on NATO.
And what they are getting away with in Ukraine is far, far more flagrant in its contempt for public opinion than anything they ever did in the ‘Cold War.’
Incidentally I gave this link yesterday but by that time I suspect that most peoole had gone to bed. It is a very good brief history of NATO.
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2022/05/01/nato-the-founding-lie/
John Goss | May 2 2022 12:00 utc | 64

Posted by: bevin | May 2 2022 14:28 utc | 104

Sorry John, I was going to thank you for your contribution. I got carried away!!!

Posted by: bevin | May 2 2022 14:28 utc | 105

Posted by: line islands | May 2 2022 14:18 utc | 107
You’re another idiot who dreams of nuclear weapons annihilation for the whole world. Thankfully, the Russians are levelheaded.

Posted by: Bloke from block 8 | May 2 2022 14:29 utc | 106

Posted by: RationalPeacekeeper | May 2 2022 10:06 utc | 26
It’s early days!!
No matter how hard it is to see Russia being ganged up on at the moment with the delivery of scrap metal.I think it is important to remember that Russia is also carrying and demonstrating its partner’s projections of a new world order based on established international law,while exposing the rules base law and it’s hypocrisy for all to see.
At the moment Russia has Ukraine in its control and is just getting on with its objectives.Russia is just waiting for Nato or a defacto to cross the boarder into Ukraine,then it can demonstrate its response in an already know theater of War.
I also believe Russia gamed possible Nato involvement before it set foot in Ukraine,as has many responses in its brief case for such an event.All exports to Nato members are one devastating initial non lethal to Russia Weapon.(All Nato and US bases rely on Russian Gas)Then come the Military options.The Bear is already proding the eagle and it has backup.

Posted by: Kim | May 2 2022 14:36 utc | 107

Please let’s not bring the fantasy that is the 9/11 narrative into the conversation. Sickens me to no end.
What I’d rather focus on is Mr. Lavrov working over-time, holding separate hour-long, in-depth Q&A with press from India, China and Alarabiya. I’d rather the west listen to Lavrov (which it won’t) than to deal with Shoigu (which is coming).
It is pretty simple really. The west will not listen. It is agreement incapable. So, tell me. What should one do in this circumstance? The world outside the influence of western MSM is vast and is slowly being won over to the Russian point-of-view. Not by being bribed or threatened but by persuasion. The west is in deep trouble, and they don’t even know it – yet.

Posted by: thecelticwithinme | May 2 2022 14:37 utc | 108

Taking out a nuclear powered carrier with nuclear munitions aboard is not a bright idea. It would lead to an escalating naval battle and leave the ocean floor littered with naval nuclear power plants.
The Russians are confident in moving slowly and dragging this conflict on for what could be years. NATO has its options. I bet the F-16’s will be flown by NATO contractors.

Posted by: circumspect | May 2 2022 14:43 utc | 109

Useful to reflect on carrier vulnerability.
Two initial considerations;
1. Timing.
2. News management.
3. Target navy.
1. Though sinking a carrier should mapped to the escalation trajectory, when and under what conditions this step should be taken will be as important as the readiness to take it. RF seems committed to attempting to follow legalities to the extent possible. A carrier attack would only come after a declaration of war, one would guess.
Further, it should probably come *after* NATO has clearly committed a damaging escalation. If the Moskva, then this has already happened. Attacking Transnistria, or a damaging missile strike deep into Russia linked to a NATO export / command & control, etc.
2. News management. Rather than make the strike and then put out a justification for it. Russia might call a press conference, ensure the attendance of non-Western media in particular. Live stream the case for the rationale, and give the crew of the carrier a window of time to abandon ship. (1 hour?) Takes the Pearl Harbour surprise attack out of the equation. Instead the message is one of Western powerlessness. Continue streaming and provide satellite footage of the missile strike. Announce that if NATO wants to continue to participate in Ukraine war, NATO HQ will be next.
3. Although a US carrier should be on the escalation trajectory, the UK’s new carrier is a better candidate first. The UK has already providing verbal and likely logistical support and weapons systems for striking into Russia; has provoked Russia at many turns. The UK crazies can’t do much without US crazies, but leaves the US an out, and an opportunity to betray another ally with weak support.

Posted by: Paul Damascene | May 2 2022 14:43 utc | 110

sorry, two of the most stupid arguments from a likewise lemming are: “it is obove our paygrade” and above “logic understanding”. Sorry, most of us may lagging qualified and detailed actual information to make our minds up in more details. I suppose that almost all of use are not ideological blended persons and are always aware about the huge responsibility involved, before making wishful and senceful comments. I make another stance on this discussion: Washington and the Pentagon are only the executive offices of the 1%ers of highly monopol.-, duopol.- and oligopolistic core industries left with their extremly wealthy and rich shareholders. Remenber, the record to make a media campain for a Senat seat is above 83 Mil. US-Dollar within. Biden has stated in his earler days, that at least he is corrupt, in the sence he needed mich money for his election. So, stop the US-war in Ukraine until the last neo-nazi extremist (most of them are in Donbass, Kiew und Liviv, stop the money making.

Posted by: tom | May 2 2022 14:48 utc | 111

May I propose a quick ‘n dirty compromise between you two: Ramstein AB in Germany.

Posted by: bjd | May 2 2022 14:56 utc | 112

Re Paul Damascene May 2nd 14.43 @ 114
In terms of escalation I think you’re on the right track – the UK is the perfect target, an arrogant minor military power all puffed up full of itself so much so that most of Zone B would applaud the sinking of one their ships. In this case, however, I think Russia should save destroying one the two UK aircraft carriers for a later and higher level of escalation. For now and to start, I think that the most appropriate candidate for sinking would be the British frigate type 45, HMS Defender, the one that sailed into Russian waters in June 2021. I remember the Captain and crew bragging about the ship’s AD systems and how it outmatched anything in the RF arsenal. Comeuppance is well past overdue for this bunch.

Posted by: thermobarbaric | May 2 2022 14:59 utc | 113

The most vulnerable point of the U.S. is the truth. Russia should reveal what it knows about things like the JFK assassination and 9/11, together with evidence supporting its view. No doubt it knows quite a lot about covid as well. Doing this would break no laws.

Posted by: Lysias | May 2 2022 15:01 utc | 114

“European leaders are stupid, coward and incompetent, but at the end, they are vassals. The villains are in Washington. There will be no peace until the empire gets at least a bloody nose.”
Spot on the EU is now for all effective purposes under the Monroe Doctrine, self inflicted I might add. As for sinking a US carrier, it would send a message, the US is funneling copious amount of arms to Ukraine, that if they reach the desired hands will be used to kill Russians, sinking a carrier won’t change that but it will let the Biden know that there’s a price to be paid for supplying weapons that will be used to kill Russians.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | May 2 2022 15:03 utc | 115