Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 22, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-71

Only news & views related to the Ukraine conflict ...

The open thread for other issues is here.

Posted by b on May 22, 2022 at 11:58 UTC | Permalink

Comments
« previous page | next page »

@ Peter AU1 | May 22 2022 23:55 utc | 207

It didn't even occur to me that you were having a shot at me.

I see now what you meant, that Zelensky would allegedly be poisoned by Putin. Yes, absolutely right, when their usefulness is much diminished sometimes people are worth more dead than alive. Pardon me for being slow on the uptake but in my defence you could have been clearer.

Posted by: MarkU | May 23 2022 0:10 utc | 201

This tipping point will occur when enough Nazis have been exterminated that Zelensky can get away with surrendering the Ukraine to Russia without getting assassinated.

Posted by: William Gruff | May 22 2022 21:21 utc | 165


My understanding is that elensky is literally surrounded and "protected" by Nazis. He won't be in a position to surrender Ukronaziland to anyone.

Posted by: malenkov | May 23 2022 0:13 utc | 202

The Poland / Galicia / Ukraine thing has only been labeled as a "conspiracy theory" by the usual NATO suspects.
So Russia can obliterate any Polish presence in 404 and the West (and Poland in particular) would have no grounds to complain? I'll drink to that!

Posted by: malenkov | May 23 2022 0:15 utc | 203

Whatever else Trotsky's ideas were they were, like Rosa Luxemburg's, totally opposed to imperialism.

Not to recognise this is to wallow in the sectarianism that has long been capitalism's major ally on the left. A sectarianism that has proved to be a ticket to rich rewards in bourgeois society.

Posted by: bevin | May 22 2022 19:13 utc | 124

***

^^^This. Thank you.

Posted by: Vintage Red | May 23 2022 0:17 utc | 204

In the end, the economy will talk.

Western economies can't sustain the self-inflicted pain, not for more than a year without massive layoffs and bankruptcies gradually sparking civil unrest. We're only 3 months in and people already complain about rising costs and empty shelves — they've seen nothing yet. The fearmongering crowd-control measure named "monkeypox" slowly being introduced now will fail badly, since food, mobility and warm shelter outweigh a potential health issue that only might affect less than one percent of the population.

Sanctions, announced with rhetorical bangs will be lifted with a series of whimpers, I would guesstimate in less than a year from now — not to be announced with big headlines.

The daily increasing level of copium required in Berlin, Paris and Brussels will determine the timing, not the progress of the Russian army which has much more time and resources. Note that the liberated territories create roughly 75 % of economic value of what used to be known as "the Ukraine."

Maria Zakharova should take her entertaining vkontakte to TV and start hosting a satirical weekly, a half-hour show reviewing the week's news footage from EU-GB-USA topped with a thick comical layer, ideally with English subs. In Germany, there was "heute show" until it became too dangerous for The Powers That Be and was turned into a one-world-government shill.

Posted by: Nervous German | May 23 2022 0:18 utc | 205

The dominant narratives that structured the world, especially after WW2, are over
Posted by: Patroklos | May 22 2022 22:20 utc | 184

No they are not. The salient message of one story (and its epic verse) is securing supply chains at frontier of central European civilization for and its descendants to enjoy. All day, every day, by any means--mostly violence.

consider the sphere of "globalism" from Greco-Roman antiquity ... something something labor something ... IPOs ...
cotton ...
Egyptian and Italian Merchants in the Black Sea Slave Trade, 1260-1500

to something cotton something oil something rare earths ... COVAX Trade War something ...

What consequences will joining Biden’s IPEF have for S. Korea?

The IPEF’s main goal is to exclude China from supply chains in cutting-edge and future-oriented industries and to reorganize those supply chains around the US. The US has made clear that it intends to counter China’s unfair trade practices and market distortions.
In the case of semiconductors, which the US has designated as a strategic product, the US could design a system of supply chain cooperation that links the US (front end), South Korea and Taiwan (design and production), Japan (equipment) and Malaysia (back end).

Posted by: sln2002 | May 23 2022 0:20 utc | 206

For sure the global power of the dollar, and of globalist institutions starting but by no means ending with the IMF and World Bank, needs to be broken.

That's the main thing which is causing me to come around to the idea that maybe it is better for Russia to drag out the SMO rather than to have smashed Ukraine's armed resistance as fast as possible, as I originally thought - maybe the gradually unfolding self-disaster of the sanctions, aggravating the pre-existing financial crisis of the empire, will end up being the Verdun attrition that breaks the dollar's economic power.

Posted by: Flying Dutchman | May 22 2022 20:03 utc | 142

***

I've been coming around to this same perspective. A whole new take on Napoleon's "Never interrupt your opponent when he's making a mistake".

Posted by: Vintage Red | May 23 2022 0:21 utc | 207

@ malenkov | May 23 2022 0:15 utc | 212

Indeed. Though once the RF campaign is concluded I doubt they will give a flying fuck who occupies Lvov.

Posted by: MarkU | May 23 2022 0:24 utc | 208

I've been coming around to this same perspective. A whole new take on Napoleon's "Never interrupt your opponent when he's making a mistake".

Posted by: Vintage Red | May 23 2022 0:21 utc | 216

Translation: Keep up the slow-motion grinding down of the Ukrops, make the west pour in moar Gazillions of dollars and euros!

Posted by: Nervous German | May 23 2022 0:26 utc | 209

I want to see you cheerleading the next American invasion of Panama and Cuba.

Posted by: Trotzki | May 22 2022 14:28 utc | 35

The yanks already invaded Panama. And Grenada.

Posted by: Dadda | May 23 2022 0:29 utc | 210

@ MarkU | May 23 2022 0:24 utc | 217

As far as I'm concerned, that city ceased to exist when it was no longer the site of production of an ungodly large share of the Austro-Hungarian Empire's best artists and intellectuals. So I can't say I care who occupies it either -- as long as it's thoroughly denazified.

Posted by: malenkov | May 23 2022 0:30 utc | 211

I want to see you cheerleading the next American invasion of Panama and Cuba.

Posted by: Trotzki | May 22 2022 14:28 utc | 35

The yanks already invaded Panama. And Grenada.

Posted by: Dadda | May 23 2022 0:29 utc | 218


But re Cuba: We tried, Lord knows we tried!

Posted by: malenkov | May 23 2022 0:33 utc | 212

MarkU @189: "But will Zelensky ever be a free agent? can he be trusted anyway? I'm not convinced the Ukrainian/US side is agreement capable."

Well, yes, no question at all that is so. Zelensky will do whatever is necessary to keep Zelensky's head attached to Zelensky's body, and hopefully in relatively functional condition. If the Russians can assure his personal security then he will be their boy. Do you imagine a Jew likes being on a leash held by Nazis? Do you not imagine he goes to bed every night raging against his impotence? His powerlessness?

The Russians don't need to trust Zelensky. He'll be their puppet just as eagerly as he is the Nazis' puppet right now; more eagerly I would wager.

With that said, Zelensky is Ukrainian after all. Leashes and other bondage gear wielded by leather clad dominants is probably what turns him on.

Posted by: William Gruff | May 23 2022 0:36 utc | 213

@ malenkov | May 23 2022 0:30 utc | 219

As I remember it, the Banderites and the Poles have bad blood dating back to WW2, they deserve each other.

Posted by: MarkU | May 23 2022 0:37 utc | 214

@ malenkov | May 23 2022 0:30 utc | 219

As I remember it, the Banderites and the Poles have bad blood dating back to WW2, they deserve each other.

Posted by: MarkU | May 23 2022 0:37 utc | 222


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Jews and the Banderites had bad blood dating back to WW2 as well, but look at them now.


Posted by: malenkov | May 23 2022 0:41 utc | 215

@ William Gruff | May 23 2022 0:36 utc | 221

The only flaw in your otherwise indisputable argument is that Zelensky is not in Russian hands and probably never will be.

Posted by: MarkU | May 23 2022 0:42 utc | 216

@ malenkov | May 23 2022 0:41 utc | 223

I don't have any substantial counter-arguments to that.

Posted by: MarkU | May 23 2022 0:47 utc | 217

MarkU @224

True, it doesn't seem likely right now. We'll have to see how thing develop.

Posted by: William Gruff | May 23 2022 0:53 utc | 218

Posted by: Trotzki | May 22 2022 14:28 utc | 35

Long story short. When country 404 became independent in 1991. All the countries richest oligarchs and corrupt leaders. Basically stole everything and then paid zero taxes. Imposed additional taxes on the natives. Banned all native languages and much more.

Question, how would you remove the current trash that infests this very corrupt government of country 404?

Use the standard USA "shock and awe(Stalin )" type war? Here you bomb all the natives back to the stone age. Killing a fair percentage of innocent civilians children . Then impose a fake corrupt president and fake democracy . Total world death toll killed by the Americans. Children inclusive. Since August 1945, exceed thirty five million people. Structural damage. We've run out of usable civilian targets. Oh look there is a truck parked at the local sewage works. Let's erase that plant today.

Or do you operate on and remove the cancerous trash and corrupt ones? The cancerous ones. Shoot and kill with impunity natives. Use civilian shields. Store war toys in churches, schools , shopping malls and much more. Also leave the basic infrastructure alone. So that normal life will return quickly at wars end.

Choices??????????????

Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | May 23 2022 0:54 utc | 219

@ malenkov | May 23 2022 0:30 utc | 219

As I remember it, the Banderites and the Poles have bad blood dating back to WW2, they deserve each other.

Posted by: MarkU | May 23 2022 0:37 utc | 222


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Jews and the Banderites had bad blood dating back to WW2 as well, but look at them now.


Posted by: malenkov | May 23 2022 0:41 utc | 223


. . . my point being that when it comes to political advantage, there are few groups of people who will not extend the hand of friendship and brotherhood to those who raped and killed their mothers and sisters (and baby brothers) in order to do the same to a new enemy.

One of the things I respect about the Russians and the Chinese is that they have actual historical memories and therefore don't shit on their allies, and don't gang up with recent enemies to abuse new ones.

Posted by: malenkov | May 23 2022 1:03 utc | 220

For any interested, tomorrow (23 May), 2pm US/Canada East Coast time:

United National Antiwar Coalition webinar:

Where is the War in Ukraine Going and What Should be the Response of the Peace Movement?

Speakers:
Scott Ritter – Former UN Weapons Inspector
Ajamu Baraka – Black Alliance for Peace
Sara Flounders – International Action Center
Alan Freeman – International Manifesto Group
Moderator – Joe Lombardo, UNAC Coordinator

Posted by: Vintage Red | May 23 2022 1:05 utc | 221

@ Bad Deal Motors On | May 23 2022 0:54 utc | 227

Well said. Could I offer an addendum?

Our fake Trotskyite is outraged that Russia should attack poor defenseless 404 without any provocation whatsoever (heh). Perhaps we could turn this around and ask why we shouldn't be outraged that the West isn't participating in eliminating a Nazi-infested and -glorifying regime.

Posted by: malenkov | May 23 2022 1:06 utc | 222

"Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast."

Posted by: Featherless | May 23 2022 1:13 utc | 223

Posted by: William Gruff | May 23 2022 0:36 utc | 221

"Well, yes, no question at all that is so. Zelensky will do whatever is necessary to keep Zelensky's head attached to Zelensky's body, and hopefully in relatively functional condition"'''
so that he can make it to his mansion in Miami and enjoy his one billion dollar blood money.

Posted by: Scorpion | May 23 2022 1:28 utc | 224

Note: When the Soviet Union was dissolved nearly 100% of the households in the Ukraine had what the UN called "improved water", which is sanitized and drinkable indoor running water. In 2011 that was down to 87% of Ukrainian households. Obviously the percentage of households with drinkable indoor water is much lower now, though no figures have been published that I can find since 2011.

That country didn't go 404 overnight. The degeneration was decades in the making.

Posted by: William Gruff | May 23 2022 1:34 utc | 225

Scorpion @232

Yes, and his lifetime supply of Colombian cocaine.

I wonder if he will survive until "retirement".

Posted by: William Gruff | May 23 2022 1:37 utc | 226

William Gruff @ 221:

"... Leashes and other bondage gear wielded by leather clad dominants is probably what turns [Zelensky] on."

Have you seen this video?

Posted by: Jen | May 23 2022 1:40 utc | 227

Posted by: Trotzki | May 22 2022 14:28 utc | 35

Retard.

Posted by: Bearish Panda | May 23 2022 1:43 utc | 228

Posted by: William Gruff | May 23 2022 0:36 utc | 221

I don't think the Russians want Zelenskyy for anything except to sign a surrender document. Once he does, he's out. Frankly, given what he knows the Russians think of him, he'll be long gone before the Russians get to Kiev. He's not going to risk losing his millions and a mansion in Florida. It's absurd.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 1:46 utc | 229

"The general sighed, and the lines on the map, moved from side to side." Pink Floyd, "Us and Them"

Posted by: Immaculate deception | May 23 2022 1:48 utc | 230

Posted by: Vintage Red | May 23 2022 1:05 utc | 229

Wouldn't waste my time with that one. The "peace movement" is irrelevant to anything. The fact that Ritter is showing up for that is interesting. Now he's becoming a "peacenik"?

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 1:48 utc | 231

sln2002 @ 201

"Modern times" is unclear and subjective. I personally look at it as post WWII but that is not a real definition just a personal one. I probably should have used the term post colonial times but even that is in question because the Empire maintains its colonies with global institutions like the IMF and the world Bank among others.

Democracy was supervised in the cases you mention but US citizens did not serve in ministerial positions in the countries it conquered. It was the Yankee dollar calling the shots behind the scenes. Certainly MacArthur and Patton placed placed loyal subjects in power.

Even in cases of conquest such as the indigenous people control was maintained by military means and Yankee dollars and goods. The tribes for the most part followed their leaders. If given a choice, hunt with a bow or a rifle? Cook with a cooper pot or on a hot rock?

Give me some names post WWII, I know of not one. Controlling in the background is obvious, placing your citizen in a ministerial positions does not happen often if at all post WWII.

Posted by: circumspect | May 23 2022 1:49 utc | 232

From Pepe Escobar's Telegram channel, forwarded from Eurasia and Multipolarity...

The EU should be afraid of an embargo not on oil and gas from Russia, but on enriched uranium.

It is noted that the European Union depends on it much more because it buys about 40% of the material needed for the operation of nuclear power plants from Russia and Kazakhstan “close to the Kremlin”.

According to experts, shutting off the "uranium tap" threatens to undermine the power supply in entire countries, because the EU acquires from Moscow not only raw materials, but also technologies: "Russian installations are considered among the best in the world."

It is emphasized that pressurized water reactors need to be replaced regularly, and they work only on Russian-made hexagonal rods.

@rt_russian (https://t.me/rt_russian/111729)

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 1:52 utc | 233

Posted by: Vintage Red | May 23 2022 1:05 utc | 229

Wouldn't waste my time with that one. The "peace movement" is irrelevant to anything. The fact that Ritter is showing up for that is interesting. Now he's becoming a "peacenik"?

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 1:48 utc | 239


Gandhi : Western civilization :: me : peace movement

Posted by: malenkov | May 23 2022 1:55 utc | 234

William Gruff @ 234

While I have watched the video of Zelensky with the white powder on his desk, and I have seen some of his behavior which could lead one to conclude that he is under the influence, it's hard to know for sure.

Nonetheless, I can't help of thinking of Zelensky as the Mandarin character from the Avengers, albeit more out in the open. If I was more social media savvy, I might create a meme with Z's face over the Mandarin's or vice versa. But alas, no. Posting to this list is about the only online presence I have.

Also, I've been coming to this site for at least a decade, but only started posting recently. I've learned a lot, especially about what I don't know and shouldn't talk about. Sorry to end with a preposition.

Down the hatch!

Posted by: Objective Observer | May 23 2022 1:59 utc | 235

Comment from https://t.me/polkovnik_hodarenok Telegram channel on the German "Marder" armored fighting vehicle being sent to Ukraine... Anyone riding in these things will become a "martyr" for Ukraine...

"Marder" is a good car, developed in the mid-60s, but there are a number of nuances that are not highlighted anywhere.

The training course for a driver for this equipment is at least six months, the repair department is a year, the management department is about one and a half. How much did the APU have? A month at best. During this time, you can not even learn to ride.

Dynamic protection packages for Marders are not provided in the Ukrainian delivery, which hints at the imminent destruction of equipment even with relatively light weapons.

The 20mm Mk20 DM5 gun is not bad, but loses to the same 2A42 and 2A72 in terms of firing range and armor penetration. And taking into account the fact that there are BMPTs “on the front end”, the meaning in the 20-mm caliber is zero.

In modern battles, versions of the Marder 1A5 and A5A1 with multispectral armor would be useful, but the Germans rejected these vehicles at home because of "unpredictable efficiency."

Conclusion: to carry troops back and forth, "Marders" are suitable, but such equipment is no longer suitable for battles.

#Germany #Lendlease #BMP #Mard

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 2:06 utc | 236

lmao
this joker, the president of polish land, was in Kiev. As dumb as they get on the european scene?

"the face of europe" all right, the face of neo-nazism on the rise


https://twitter.com/RWApodcast/status/1528365101551583234

“I will not give up until Ukraine becomes a full-fledged member of the EU, because Ukraine is the face of Europe! The defender of the big European family!”, President Duda said today.

8:20 AM · May 22, 2022

Posted by: michaelj72 | May 23 2022 2:08 utc | 237

Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | May 23 2022 0:54 utc | 227

"Question, how would you remove the current trash that infests this very corrupt government of country 404?

Choices??????????????"

As well as picking off low-hanging puppet fruit have to work on cutting puppets' strings as well as blinding or otherwise disabling puppeteers.

Without puppeteers, puppets immediately cease their zombie movements.

I suspect the asymmetric geo-political and geo-economic tactics and strategies are the result of a 10+ year symbiotic alliance between Russia, China and a by now well-established 'globalist' network in place and able to bring down the puppeteer nations from within. That is why certain aspects of the kinetic operation in Ukraine feel a little phoney-war-ish. I don't think that is a good term, btw, but it's used. Maybe more like simply one part of a much larger whole with many moving parts.

This war is not between Russia (and her allies) and the West. It is about how international relations can be conducted so that a different way of doing things can emerge after the current way has had its strings cut.

I am waiting for a Wizard of Oz reveal dynamic gradually penetrating into media-bewildered Western middle classes and mid-level apparatchiks such that they begin to see they have been living a lie.

So part of the answer to your question is also going to include:'how to you bring people out of mass formation psychosis?' (Another dodgy term but okay for now.)

If the western economies and socio-political order doesn't go into a serious melt-down then it's almost impossible for the Ukraine kinetic operation alone to succeed much beyond securing Eastern Ukraine for those people who vote to be part of the Russian sphere either as new oblasts within the RF or as allied independent republics in a federation. The people will vote, as the Russian President has promised.

And even if the kinetic operation stops fairly soon in Ukraine, the sanctions war level can continue indefinitely where the main battles in this asymmetric war will be fought (though maybe fight isn't quite the right word either but...)

Posted by: Scorpion | May 23 2022 2:09 utc | 238

FZappa, is that a real pancho or is that a Sears Pancho?
Hack. Wasn't Zod also a villian in one of the Superman movies?
Mexico had a foreigner as president, Maximilian. German if my memory serves.

Posted by: Immaculate deception | May 23 2022 2:10 utc | 239

Correction, Maximilian was Austrian.

Posted by: Immaculate deception | May 23 2022 2:14 utc | 240

"Slow and steady wins the race."

Posted by: Featherless | May 23 2022 2:22 utc | 241

Nonetheless, I can't help of thinking of Zelensky as the Mandarin character from the Avengers [snip]

Posted by: Objective Observer | May 23 2022 1:59 utc | 243


Well, speaking of mandarins, I myself can't help thinking of elensky as a sort of latter-day Pu Yi, except that the latter actually seemed occasionally disturbed by the destruction of his people. Well, at least in the Bertolucci film.

Posted by: malenkov | May 23 2022 2:23 utc | 242

malenkov @ 250

Well, Pu Yi was at least humbled a bit by the end (at least as the movie portrayed it). We'll see how Zelensky ends up...probably not gardening in poverty and obscurity...but what do I know.

Posted by: Objective Observer | May 23 2022 2:29 utc | 243

re Duda: "Ukraine is the face of Europe! The defender of the big European family!"
How ironic. Ukraine is now Zelensky, who is a daily product of the roomful of US advisors who produce the scripts for the comedian to recite, including all those fancy catch phrases that make Duda swoon as the big European family sinks lower and lower in the abyss. Perhaps one of those advisors will write book on the whole sordid affair, some day, if they dare.

Posted by: Don Bacon | May 23 2022 2:35 utc | 244

@ Objective Observer | May 23 2022 2:29 utc | 251

I wouldn't be too terribly surprising if things get bad enough in 404 that elensky's Azovite bodyguards suddenly discover that their charge is a Jew, if you know what I mean and I think you do.

Posted by: malenkov | May 23 2022 2:36 utc | 245

Posted by: Immaculate deception | May 23 2022 2:10 utc | 247

Yes, Zod was in the second Superman movie IIRC. Portrayed by Terence Stamp., an excellent British actor.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 2:43 utc | 246

From Sputnik News Telegram channel... So much for any Ukraine "concessions"... As I said, there will be no peace talks, no matter what happens. Ukraine can surrender to Russia or die. Period. End of story.

Ukraine rules out agreeing to a cease-fire with the Russian Federation and will not agree to any agreement with Moscow providing for recognition of the seizure of Ukrainian territory.

This was stated by the adviser to the head of the Office of the President Mikhail Podolyak in an interview with Reuters.

"(Russian) forces must leave the country, and after that it will be possible to resume the peace process," Podolyak said.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 2:45 utc | 247

From southfront:

According to unconfirmed reports, 2 battalions of Polish infantry moved out of Kiev the day before and have reached Pavlograd to support the AFU. The Polish infantry is reportedly preparing for transfer to the Avdiivka area. Each battalion is reportedly equipped with 4 Rapier anti-tank guns, armored personnel carriers and US-made armored vehicles.

What? Polish have enterred the fighting?

Posted by: jared | May 23 2022 2:47 utc | 248

Duda might be a dumb psycho, but are Polish would-be soldiers on board with jumping into the Ukraine grinder ?

How many % are thinking right now "f that. I'm gonna work as a barista or at mcdonalds this year."

How about young soldiers in Finland and Sweden ?

"Yeah, I thought about it, and I think I'm gonna get those last credits I need for my college degree, and maybe work as a go-go boy/girl/? for now."

Posted by: Featherless | May 23 2022 2:50 utc | 249

Posted by: leandro | May 22 2022 16:53 utc | 97

OK, you win. (I don't have time to stoop to your level.)

Posted by: Seer | May 23 2022 2:55 utc | 250

United National Antiwar Coalition webinar:

Where is the War in Ukraine Going and What Should be the Response of the Peace Movement?

Speakers:
Scott Ritter – Former UN Weapons Inspector
Ajamu Baraka – Black Alliance for Peace
Sara Flounders – International Action Center
Alan Freeman – International Manifesto Group
Moderator – Joe Lombardo, UNAC Coordinator

Posted by: Vintage Red | May 23 2022 1:05 utc | 229

I suspect this is rehab for Scott Ritter, but aside from that possibility, it's a conversation that needs to be had since the peace movement right now is stuck on the premise that the Russian "invasion" is illegal and evil.

Posted by: K | May 23 2022 3:08 utc | 251

I suspect this is rehab for Scott Ritter, but aside from that possibility, it's a conversation that needs to be had since the peace movement right now is stuck on the premise that the Russian "invasion" is illegal and evil.

Posted by: K | May 23 2022 3:08 utc | 259


In all fairness, I think it should be noted that while Ajamu Baraka isn't exactly thrilled about the Russian operation in 404, he sees it as a last-ditch reaction to American imperialism, which he bitterly opposes. Oh, and he condemns in no uncertain terms 404 racism and the West's cover-up of same.

Posted by: malenkov | May 23 2022 3:18 utc | 252

@karlof1 #203


"No Offensive weapon systems inside nations on Russia's borders and rolling NATO back to its 1997 status were two besides concluding new agreements based on the concept of Indivisible Security, which happens to be what the UN Charter says should be the norm.."

If there is reliable agreement viz Indivisible Security then NATO is redundant along with the 1997 border notion. Without the latter, achieving the former is probably only something hard liners would be pushing for and in any case a longshot.


What I see is a multigenerational struggle for the Multipolar World's formation atop the dying body of the Outlaw US Empire...

I hope that multigenerational business is wrong and that a financial and politico-social collapse can bring about a tipping point in the West ushering in substantive reforms in a matter of years not decades otherwise nuclear war will be far more likely.

As to a new more communitarian order that gives pause too. But if that order includes a vibrant small business private sector with well protected individual rights along with a strong State which protects that and not overly large centralization of power then it should be okay.

I wish I understood both Russian and Chinese polity better. In any case, if the State serves the common good well, fine, but if it veers into totalitarianism there must be effective and relatively easy ways to self correct.

Posted by: Scorpion | May 23 2022 3:22 utc | 253

Richard Medhurst

Scott Ritter

Yarning about naz! surrender at Azovstal. 2hr 40m

or here:
Rokfin: https://rokfin.com/richardmedhurst
Odysee: https://odysee.com/@richardmedhurst
Rumble: https://rumble.com/richardmedhurst
Substack: https://richardmedhurst.substack.com/

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 23 2022 3:25 utc | 254

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uAh_u6KpScM

Gov of bank of England says food situation will be "apocalyptic" with train strike looming.

Engineered collapse?

Mercoulis unable as always to countenance such a possibility.

Posted by: Scorpion | May 23 2022 3:31 utc | 255

Posted by: Bad Deal Motors On | May 23 2022 0:54 utc | 227

How to clean up the oligarchs in Ukraine? Talk to Putin to find out how it's done!

Posted by: Seer | May 23 2022 3:40 utc | 256

Posted by: c1ue | May 22 2022 16:24 utc | 85

Thanks so much for the reply.

Posted by: ETA | May 23 2022 3:46 utc | 257

Forgive if this is old thought but reading Southfront 's daily summary which features news of Polish forces moving from Kiev into Donbass theater:
Maybe the deal is that if they help prevent Russia advance westward then they will get a bite out of the Galician apple?

Posted by: Scorpion | May 23 2022 3:48 utc | 258

uncle tungsten | May 23 2022 3:25 utc | 262

Ritter is on the learning curve to understanding Putin. From looking at it from purely the military perspective, he is now also looking at the economic and political perspective. Still has a way to go but he is honest. Can't ask for more than that in a person.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 23 2022 3:55 utc | 259

Thank you all, for not using the useless “I mean”, before making your points.
The pause, “I mean”, is fine when using actual oral argument.
It serves a purpose. It is a time buyer.
It’s not optimal; as it declares that the person speaking isn’t completely sure of their thought.
“I mean” gives the speaker an extra second or two, to formulate their sentence or idea.
In oral argument, it’s ok.
We all do it.

However, literally using “I mean,” signifies you are not being serious.
If you are LITERALLY writing your thoughts in a post,
and I am using the term “literally” correctly,
this means you have not thought out a complete idea.

There is no need to use, “I mean”, in a post.
We all know what you mean.
Spare us the gross, vulgar, use of text space.
That is all.

Posted by: Cadence calls | May 23 2022 3:56 utc | 260

I wish I understood both Russian and Chinese polity better. In any case, if the State serves the common good well, fine, but if it veers into totalitarianism there must be effective and relatively easy ways to self correct.

Posted by: Scorpion | May 23 2022 3:22 utc | 261

it seems to me that with such a predatory unipolar Empire as we have, its very difficult to have an alternative system to capitalism without a fair amount of control at this time in history. The control is needed not over the population but over who seeks to control, subvert or infiltrate the population or system from outside.
Minus Empire I think a system as you suggest would be ideal, but until the Empire is put back in its box no state will be safe from regime change plotting.
Western totalitarianism as it is developing is far more scary to me that what is in China or Russia.

Posted by: K | May 23 2022 3:56 utc | 261

Scorpion #266

Maybe the deal is that if they help prevent Russia advance westward then they will get a bite out of the Galician apple?

The galician apples this year are infested with nazi grub and it is heading into Poland as we write. The apple trees are soon to be managed by Putin's buddies and they will be looking after whatever fruit remains. Plus ensuring the complete eradication of the pest.

Poland is definitely governed by a foolish bunch of wannabe's.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 23 2022 3:59 utc | 262

Cadence calls | May 23 2022 3:56 utc | 268

I guess it is a bit dull during this lull in the war of the worlds, but I mean you are really setting yourself up as a target :)

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 23 2022 4:02 utc | 263

Hey,
I mean, I’m just trying to stir it up.
What with the war not making headlines.
I mean, what’s wrong with trying to up the grammar game?

Posted by: Cadence Calls | May 23 2022 4:05 utc | 264

To Trotzki: There is absolutely nothing defendable that you can say or ignore about the wars that Jews and the west have unleashed on this planet.

To equate Russia or China with your evil shows exactly your composition. Your hold on this world is finished, and the only question is whether the billions remaining whose kin suffered and died will forgive you. I hope not.

Your world is coming to an end, and this MSM bullshit means nothing. Israel population will be scattered among their controlled right wing countries, along with their controlled Nazis. Have a happy life.

Posted by: Karl luck | May 23 2022 4:05 utc | 265

Richard Steven Hack | May 22 2022 23:53 utc | 206
____

Nicely put

Posted by: Doug Hillman | May 23 2022 4:09 utc | 266

I do appreciate the high level of diction and discourse at the bar.
Just giving a heads up, as I’ve read many posts on other sites
that fancy themselves in tune.
Just a bit of fun, and a caution.
I mean, really.

Posted by: Cadence calls | May 23 2022 4:13 utc | 267

May 23 2022 3:59 utc | 270

Although the only buses in Ukraine are headed to Siberia, I wouldn't put it past Putin to hand Poland a wormy apple tree if they want it.
Apparently Azovstal factory is to become a park in the Mariupol tourist resort. A good name for that park is I think the Siberian bus stop. The road to physical fitness, the joys of manual labour, and crisp clean air.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 23 2022 4:15 utc | 268

I’m a “literally” purist.
As in: “When you pass Go in monopoly, you get 200$. It literally is in the rules.”

I can’t get over the bastardization of the bastard English language.
Rules are rules.

Posted by: Cadence Calls | May 23 2022 4:26 utc | 269

Cadence Calls | May 23 2022 4:26 utc | 277

The rules based order .. English is the only language I know and I'm hopeless at it. I guess I have done a lot more reading than talking and writing through my life.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 23 2022 4:33 utc | 270

Richard Steven Hack@204
To be fair, the remarks that Doctorow attributes to his Taxi Driver are not unlike those of Russell Bentley in the recent interview he gave to Finian Cunningham of Strategic Culture.
"Russell Bentley: A lot of people in Donbass and Russia are concerned about the pace and even the conduct of Operation Z, especially in its early stages. In the beginning, some serious mistakes were made, but this is inevitable in every war..."
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2022/05/18/us-nato-waging-war-with-russia-in-ukraine-but-russia-assured-victory-russell-bentley/

The tendency of posters here to pile on people like Scott Ritter and Doctorow with whom they generally agree is unhelpful unless the aim is to ensure that all opinion conforms in every respect with previously voiced opinions which have been approved as acceptable.

This insistence on conformity is a very American trait- as we see in the mass media's current campaigns against Putin and Russia. It appears to have spread to NATO media as a whole and is responsible for deepening popular ignorance of the complexities of the problems that we face.
The only people who benefit from the narrowing of the range of permissible statements are the ruling class who stamp out any suggestions of originality on sight.
Most anarchists would understand this.

Posted by: bevin | May 23 2022 4:34 utc | 271

G..g..general Zod. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhO9XCETjgg

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 23 2022 4:45 utc | 272

Posted by: jared | May 23 2022 2:47 utc | 256

Until I see confirmation from Russia MoD, I call BS.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 4:47 utc | 273

i am cool with non conformity.... i got a laugh out of cadence calls 'i mean' concept... here is a monk tune for you cadence calls...

Thelonious Monk - I Mean You

i guess sunday the paid trolls get a day off, lol..

Slavyangrad - Gleb Bazov
One of the biggest problems is not the kind of weapons that Kraine is receiving, it is the fact that those who could have used them effectively are being killed in combat. Leaving aside the fact that only about 70% of the lighter arms (ATGMs and such) ever make it to the troops in the field of battle, the loss of professional and trained cadre is the Krainian army’s biggest downfall. Think of how much money had been poured into Azov, the 24th Brigade, the 36th Brigade, the various Air Assault brigades… all those that have suffered losses of 60%+ or been completely demolished. You cannot replace this kind of expertise—particularly when training with westerns weapons. Not because western weapons are any more difficult than the Soviet ones (though they are!) but because being able to adjust to a new system and knowing instinctively when to squeeze the trigger is something that is learned over years of real-time military training. Having a few veterans in the corps is not enough to teach the cannon fodder. Ukraine will have to have years of this war to rebuild the army that they have already lost—and western armament spree is not forever—Ukraine will need its own industry and a about twice as much population to even out this war over the course of the next year—and that, if Russia keeps only a limited contingent fighting. The only question is not who loses and when the Kraine loses—it is simply how many men Russia is prepared to lose while bringing the Kraine to a rendezvous with defeat.

Posted by: james | May 23 2022 4:50 utc | 274

Posted by: bevin | May 23 2022 4:34 utc | 279
"The tendency of posters here to pile on people like Scott Ritter and Doctorow with whom they generally agree is unhelpful unless the aim is to ensure that all opinion conforms in every respect with previously voiced opinions which have been approved as acceptable. This insistence on conformity is a very American trait"

Don't put words in my mouth. I said nothing about conformity. What I want is logic and accuracy. Doctorow and Ritter appear to have abandoned those.

"Most anarchists would understand this."

I do. I also understand passive aggressive. I also understand bullshit and hand waving.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 4:54 utc | 275

@ 263 Scorpion - I remember you mentioning that your handle came from the critters in Mexico, but there was a certain band from Germany... I'll just be a bit of a cheerleader on the ol' MoA (like James from Canada.) I try not to clutter threads with music or other stuff that derails the conversations, but I couldn't help myself, especially that this is at the end of the conversation.

winds of change

I am a metalhead. I think it is quite intersting to see the convergence of popular culture (metal and other musical outputs) with political culture. And very interesting in particular with Finland. There is a Finish band called Satanic Warmaster. A one man weirdo thing. Satanic Warmaster is a part of what is know as NSBM. National Socialist Black Metal. Black metal is fringe in terms of the wide spread reach of the genre, but I have seen so much of its influence in the Ukraine stuff. There is a band called Drudkh from Ukriane. Atmospheric black metal - whatever that means - metalheads are worse than the commenters here regarding purity tests of metal as a music genre for whatever that's worth. But Satanic Warmaster and the NSBM ilk use Hitler speeches etc. as parts of their deal. Here is a sample. (sans the Hitler speech)

Satanic Warmaster

But whatever. I find it interesting. The intersection of popular / fringe culture and mainstream culture is intersting. Popular culture arriving at a rather nihilistic position.

I know you are in Mexico. How about the narco corridos?

This is at the end of a thread. Maybe you or some other folks will read this and find it interesting. I don't know if this make much sense, but I wanted to share.

Anyways, thank you.
And everyone else.

Posted by: lex taliionis | May 23 2022 4:56 utc | 276

@ Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 2:43 utc | 254

Portrayed by Terence Stamp., an excellent British actor.

Granted but he's a terrible drag queen performer: he can't lip-sync worth a damn and he's a stiffened corpse when it comes to choreography. ;)

Posted by: majoab | May 23 2022 5:01 utc | 277

@ lex taliionis | May 23 2022 4:56 utc | 284

there is a real serious metal scene in finland according to friends who tell me this... also - germany has a lot of interest in this style of music too... that sure is a mellow tune - winds of change - for a band i usually think of as heavy metal type band..

are you familiar with the band no means no?? canuck band from victoria b.c.. they are very popular in germany... i guess they are more punk, maybe punk metal.. here is a great album from them.... i have done some shows with them in the 90's... they are a great group of guys and very exciting live.. played nelson and victoria on a double and triple bill with them..

NoMeansNo - Wrong

Posted by: james | May 23 2022 5:03 utc | 278

Posted by: majoab | May 23 2022 5:01 utc | 285

Heh, no one's perfect.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 5:12 utc | 279

Cheers, James.
Just having a bit of fun.
I appreciate the link.

Posted by: Cadence calls | May 23 2022 5:18 utc | 280

Someone woke up in Germany: Ein Gespräch mit Oskar Lafontaine:
»Die USA wollen keinen Frieden«

Posted by: Antonym | May 23 2022 5:20 utc | 281

From the above interview with Lafontaine:

"Entscheidend ist der Eintritt der Grünen in die Regierung. Seit dem Jugoslawien-Krieg und der Rolle des damaligen Außenministers Joschka Fischer war erkennbar, dass die Grünen der verlängerte Arm der USA im Bundestag sind. Sie unterstützen jede US-Entscheidung, wenn es um Kriege geht. Sie nennen sich Menschenrechtspartei, kennen aber nur die Verletzung von Menschenrechten durch Russland oder China. Dass die USA infolge ihrer Kriege für die meisten Menschenrechtsverletzungen verantwortlich sind, sehen die einäugigen Grünen nicht. Eine üble Rolle spielt dabei übrigens auch die Presse, die ebenso blind gegenüber den Kriegsverbrechen der USA ist und sich für die Kriegshetze einspannen lässt."

Posted by: Antonym | May 23 2022 5:24 utc | 282

Hey james - we're at the end of a thread, so I'll chime in regarding music.

The NSBM (National Socialist Black Metal) thing is for real. Almost a recruiting tool. I happen to like extreme music, (Albert Ayler, Webern) so I can separate myself from the art and the artist thing. I try not to form opinions, but...dangerous territories.
I see a fascist influence a lot in the fringes of popular culture - the Nazi skull logos used in Death in June (great band - not metal - doom folk metal i guess) but it's all over if one sees the signs.
The Misanthropic Nihilistic flag hanging behind a Ukrainian psycho holed up in Azovstal.
Good lord. It goes on and on. But it comes from somewhere. I come to MoA to try to figure it all out.

Thanks on the No means No tip. I have seen their name, but I will do some research.

And thanks for the Mingus link. I have a radio show here in SoCal. It's on my next show!

but...the singer from Youth Brigade - old school punk band - is from Canadia. So I'll just sink with California.

Youth Brigade - Sink with California

I love MoA. Thank you everyone. And especially the barkeep, b.

Posted by: lex talionis | May 23 2022 5:28 utc | 283

"Wouldn't waste my time with that one. The 'peace movement' is irrelevant to anything. The fact that Ritter is showing up for that is interesting. Now he's becoming a 'peacenik'?

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 1:48 utc | 239

and @malenkov | May 23 2022 1:55 utc | 242, May 23 2022 3:18 utc | 260

"it's a conversation that needs to be had since the peace movement right now is stuck on the premise that the Russian 'invasion' is illegal and evil."

Posted by: K | May 23 2022 3:08 utc | 259

***

For context, @both RSH and malenkov—I read both your posts with appreciation for the information and insights you contribute here. So while I'm still getting to know you both through them, I read you both with respect.

Not long ago I posted a comment about what it will take to build up a mass movement to oppose the US empire. It seemed to be well received, though I remember a reflexive negative reaction to "antiwar". Now a broad brush dismissal because the event mentioned "peace movement". In the Empire of Lies itself, living as a number of us have noted under the most intense propaganda carpet bombing in human memory, there is no lack of delusion, confusion and uneven consciousness. We're starting from scratch.

How is an anti-imperialist mass movement going to be organized without beginning outreach and engagement with those who are at least on some basis opposed to militarism and war (never mind any risk of it going nuclear), at least in some way supporting rights, justice, whatever one wants to call this, including opposing fascism? There's zero chance of this movement starting from the right (the Republicans would just shift hostilities to China). There's zero chance of our just snapping our fingers and *poof* magically mobilizing hundreds of thousands with impeccable anti-imperialist politics against the empire from within. Important as person-to-person communication is, it's not gonna happen, at least not fast enough, by each of us just talking to that one neighbor or relative who will hear us.

As @K commented (thank you!) it has to start somewhere.

We've had a lot of discussion about Scott Ritter and his "turn"—I get that, but regardless, he's not apologizing for the US empire here (if and when he ever does, I'll be first and foremost in condemning that). Nor is he "turning peacenik"—the real context of what's going on here doesn't support that dismissiveness toward this entire effort.

Maybe Ajamu Baraka isn't sufficiently pro-Z for some. There's a whole lot of disagreement, emphases, gut feelings here at the bar on this or that aspect, it's not like we're all of the same perspective—should we just dismiss MoA? The trolls would all love that. The important thing is that Baraka *is* against the US empire, and is working to break the Black community here away from the stranglehold of the Democratic Party.

Over the years in UNAC I've worked alongside the International Action Center in protests against US aggression against Syria, Iran, the Donbass, Venezuela, Korea, other countries we all know. Whatever one might feel about their politics they are absolutely anti-US imperialism. They are fully supporting China and Russia against the US, including in Operation Z.

I've only just encountered the International Manifesto Group and so know the least of them. But from their Anti-Imperialism and the Western Left I am very positive so far—they feel to me akin to those socialists at the beginning of WW1 who did *not* cave in to siding with their ruling classes, beginning from scratch the slow building of the movement that in a few years toppled three empires. They are international, but this is *exactly* what the US movement needs: a breath of fresh air, air from the 7/8ths of humanity outside the Empire of Lies.

Even at the height of the movement against the Indochina War consciousness was all over the place, from hippies, yippies and students to the Panthers, the Weatherfolk and the GI resistance within the military. But the movement played a role in exposing US crimes and helping defeat the empire, if not overthrowing it.

Yes, we're all sick of "socialists" who never seem to support actually existing socialism. I'm feeling a bit of a tendency here to not support actually existing anti-imperialist movement building. Perfect isn't just the enemy of good, it's also the enemy of actually beginning needed work.


Posted by: Vintage Red | May 23 2022 5:44 utc | 284

@ 290 - I just did a translate on your post. God help us all. I am a believer, too.
Danke.

Posted by: lex talionis | May 23 2022 5:47 utc | 285

Posted by: lex taliionis | May 23 2022 4:56 utc | 284

Use Alacrán instead of Scorpion, true, a lot of people including your humble servant thought that the fall of the Wall and “the wind of change” would bring the peace dividend, what a rip off it was, over thirty years of war and destruction without an end in sight. Gorbachev was a disgrace, Germany was allowed to reunite just like that while the west can’t accept Crimea voting to go back home, the list is long, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Karabakh, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, and it is not over yet, that is what those Scorpions and their winds of change brought, the biggest geopolitical catastrophe of our times, and counting. I would not be surprised to find out that that Scorpion one hit band was financed by you know who.

Posted by: Paco | May 23 2022 6:03 utc | 286

This is very important! Here Scott Ritter very good explains why the game is changing to a bigger conflict in Ukrainan war.
Source: Richard Medhurst: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHDbx-PrQ10&t=9s

Posted by: Mikkado | May 23 2022 6:05 utc | 287

Hola Paco,
Claro, güey. Gorbachev fue un pinche pendejo. And to have the drunk Yeltsin humiliate him. He majorly messed up with the ethnic violence possibilities issue within the crumbling USSR. Gorbachev should have finished his vacation in Crimea that August in 1991 and moved onto the greener pastures of the West.
What do I know? Nada. I'm just trying to figure it all out. I have vague memories of the time. I'm sure they would be much sharper had I lived in the former Soviet Union.
Regarding Los Alcaranes, I'm not a huge fan. I prefer Void Meditation Cult. - from Cleveland Ohio.

Void Meditation Cult - Sulfurous Prayers Of Blight And Darkness

Posted by: lex talionis | May 23 2022 6:20 utc | 288

@ bevin #279

This insistence on conformity is a very American trait- as we see in the mass media's current campaigns against Putin and Russia.

More like post 1990s university indoctrination...

Posted by: Scorpion | May 23 2022 6:33 utc | 289

Posted by: lex taliionis | May 23 2022 4:56 utc | 284

Barfly indeed!

Posted by: Scorpion | May 23 2022 6:36 utc | 290

Posted by: Vintage Red | May 23 2022 5:44 utc | 292
"the real context of what's going on here doesn't support that dismissiveness toward this entire effort."

And that context would be what?

"it's not like we're all of the same perspective—should we just dismiss MoA?"

That's not the point. The point is whether any of these people can actually turn 400 million Americans and however many Europeans - or even the usually requisite 5-10% into an anti-Empire movement that can actually overcome the forces running the Empire?

Show me a plan, I'll take it under advisement. Until then, it's hand-waving.

"is working to break the Black community here away from the stranglehold of the Democratic Party."

Call me when he succeeds.

"protests against US aggression against Syria, Iran, the Donbass, Venezuela, Korea, other countries we all know."

And how'd that work out for everyone? Syria is still occupied, Iran is under attack, Venezuela is under attack, Korea is under attack, and we all know how the Donbass is - getting freed from Western influence by a fucking Russian invasion. Maybe the latter gives you a clue how it should go.

"those socialists at the beginning of WW1 who did *not* cave in to siding with their ruling classes, beginning from scratch the slow building of the movement that in a few years toppled three empires."

Uhm, which empires were those? Citatation, please.

"But the movement played a role in exposing US crimes and helping defeat the empire, if not overthrowing it."

I frankly don't see how the hippies ended the Vietnam war. I was there, but not aware at the time. A quick Google on the other hand shows this take:

How Vietnam Really Ended
Events abroad—not domestic anti-war activism—brought the war to an end.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2007/01/how-the-vietnam-war-really-ended.html

In short, the PTB got tired of it and quit.

I'm going to reiterate my position: the antiwar and/or "peace" movement has no influence, no power, and no chance in hell of reining in the governments of the world. Period. End of story.


Yes, we're all sick of "socialists" who never seem to support actually existing socialism. I'm feeling a bit of a tendency here to not support actually existing anti-imperialist movement building. Perfect isn't just the enemy of good, it's also the enemy of actually beginning needed work.


Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 7:01 utc | 291

Posted by: Mikkado | May 23 2022 6:05 utc | 295

Won't bother to listen to it. It's nothing we don't already know. The problem with Ritter is that he thinks this means Russia has already lost, both in Ukraine (if not in Donbass, which is the only place he thinks Russia will win) and in the wider conflict against NATO.

None of that is necessarily true.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 7:03 utc | 292

Sputnik - According to the WSJ, special forces units will have to guard the newly opened American embassy.
"President Biden has not yet been presented with this proposal. But if he approves it, the troops will be deployed only to protect and secure the embassy, which is within range of Russian missiles."
At the same time, the publication recognizes that the presence of US special forces on the territory of Ukraine will mean escalation.
"Biden's initial promise was that American troops would not be sent to Ukraine," the WSJ clarifies.

Posted by: rk | May 23 2022 7:04 utc | 293

From Sputnik News Telegram channel...

The United States is considering the possibility of sending special forces to Kiev.

According to the WSJ, special forces units will have to guard the newly opened American embassy.

"President Biden has not yet been presented with this proposal. But if he approves it, the troops will be deployed only to protect and secure the embassy, which is within range of Russian missiles."

At the same time, the publication recognizes that the presence of US special forces on the territory of Ukraine will mean escalation.

"Biden's initial promise was that American troops would not be sent to Ukraine," the WSJ clarifies.

Pentagon Weighs Deploying Special Forces to Guard Kyiv Embassy
Administration weighs desire to avoid escalating military presence against security of U.S. diplomats in a conflict zone
https://www.wsj.com/articles/pentagon-weighs-deploying-special-forces-to-guard-kyiv-embassy-11653237183?mod=politics_lead_pos1

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 7:08 utc | 294

Posted by: rk | May 23 2022 7:04 utc | 301

Beat me by four minutes! :-)

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 7:09 utc | 295

It seems the Polish will have these new rights when they get into law in Ukr

1) may hold elective positions
2) be appointed to state authorities, to senior positions of defense enterprises
3) get access to secret data
4) be judges
5) the Polish police will have the right to monitor law and order in Ukraine

Posted by: rk | May 23 2022 7:11 utc | 296

Posted by: rk | May 23 2022 7:11 utc | 304

My guess is, in the end, it will be Russians who have all those rights - not Poles. :-) Seriously, this is a really good template that Russia can use once it takes over the Ukraine government. Talk about "puppet regime"... Here we have a country trying to be a puppet regime (after having been one for the last eight years.) So any criticism of how Russia runs things in the future becomes extremely hollow.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 7:14 utc | 297

It's weird because it's not clear what will be the end of the operation. If they stop at Dnieper, I'm sure military bases from nato or, at least Poland, will appear in Kiev-Lviv region.
As you can see, US and other natoids move their diplomats back to Kiev but Kiev no longer controls more than half of the country so who are they representing? They're only borrowing money 24/7 then stealing them. So a tiny Ukr will be good to remain, nazis and haters working to pay that debt back for 100 years :)). But bombs still have to fall towards Poland border because until now it's 100% safe to live and have troops there compared to Belgorod inside Russia. They've even moved 20k troops at Belarus border and according to Belarus they often cross the border, plant mines etc.

Posted by: rk | May 23 2022 7:31 utc | 298

The problem with Ritter is that he thinks this means Russia has already lost, both in Ukraine (if not in Donbass, which is the only place he thinks Russia will win) and in the wider conflict against NATO

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | May 23 2022 7:03 utc | 300

No he does not say that, exact opposite. Just watching it on RM.

Posted by: K | May 23 2022 7:37 utc | 299

Posted by: rk | May 23 2022 7:11 utc | 304
Polish will have these new rights
I think the perception is far from reality.
Ukraine still has significant Polish minority. The catch is Poles are not recognized as minority. Only three ethnicities are. link
Quite recently Ukrainians attempted to reduce or remove Polish schools in Ukraine. link in Polish language
These regulations at best mean cessation or reduction of discrimination that happened before.

Looking at details Ukraine tended to behave in hostile way towards Poland even earlier this year, blocking railway transport, incidentally at the time Hungary opened a new rail terminal. link

However the police part resembles similar recent regulation that gave US and NATO forces police rights in Poland.

Posted by: pppp | May 23 2022 7:42 utc | 300

« previous page | next page »

The comments to this entry are closed.