Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 10, 2022

Ukraine Open Thread 2022-63

(The post for today didn't work out. I had to trash it. You will have to talk to each other instead.)

Only news & views related to the Ukraine conflict ...

The open thread for other stuff is here.

Posted by b on May 10, 2022 at 17:43 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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somebody linked this Pentagon-guy already?
Is he desperate or what is it he wants to explain?
https://t.me/Rot_Okt/476

Posted by: njet | May 11 2022 14:55 utc | 301

@Anonymous #207
The tank pictured does not look like a T90M; the pictures of T90Ms that I have seen all show a turret that pretty much overhangs the sides of the vehicle, especially when rotated to the side.

Is this even a Russian tank? Only if you agree that Ukraine no longer controls the air and so only Russian tanks would be rolling around with zero infantry support and in a total group of 3, widely spaced.

As for what hit it: the hit is clearly not on the turret but rather on the back end of the tank, behind the turret and on the side facing away from where the tank gun is pointed. There were no secondaries set off - certainly the tank turret didn't deform or fly off.

The video isn't even conclusive as to whether the tank was destroyed. The flare of explosion could just as well be reactive armor prematurely detonating/redirecting a warhead and the video conveniently/inconveniently pans out and ends right after the hit. Another 2 seconds of video would show whether the tank stopped moving, for example.

The strike isn't artillery; indirect artillery would fire multiple shots and there is no evidence of other hits/misses.

It could be an anti-tank gun, it could be a shot from a tank or AFV, it could be a missile, it could even be a mine.

But net net: the type of garbage Twitter warrior nonsense I have come to expect from pro-Ukraine sources.

Posted by: c1ue | May 11 2022 14:57 utc | 302

Posted by: c1ue | May 11 2022 14:43 utc | 295

I believe Russia would actually tolerate 20K dead if the Ukraine problem is solved.

I wrote in early 2014, that Russia would be willing to sacrifice 10,000 of her best, if that would save Ukraine. The stakes are higher today, so the 20K dead may be a correct estimate.

I also wrote that if a full war breaks out, it could lead to one million killed. With EU's belligerence today, the numbers can go even higher. For comparison, the Syrian civil war has resulted in well over 500,000 killed.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | May 11 2022 14:58 utc | 303

@Anne B #262
That may be why he was allowed to be ousted, but honestly I have never looked too closely as to the specifics behind the success of the Iranian revolution.

Posted by: c1ue | May 11 2022 15:04 utc | 304

dh @293:

In the current context that "anti-Moskal sentiment" IS fascism.

Fascist "ideology", unlike socialist ideology, is 100% relative to context, with that context being a time and place where capitalists need some violent muscle to crush the working class. Whatever works to recruit the thugs becomes the "ideology" of that particular edition of fascism. You can learn absolutely nothing about what fascism really is by asking a fascist what they believe as that is invariably just fictitious nonsense repeated authoritatively by bosses, priests, actors, and mass media talking heads. There was no Holodomor, there was no pre-Soviet Ukraine, there were no Soviet atrocities, so what have you learned by being told those are issues of faith by Ukrainian Nazis? And what does that have to do with German Nazis and their Aryan/Wagnerian mythos?

Rather, fascism is defined by its function in serving big business, not by any ideology or beliefs held by fascist.

Posted by: William Gruff | May 11 2022 15:04 utc | 305

Posted by: c1ue | May 11 2022 14:43 utc | 295

I've always believed that it all boils down to who wants it more and the lengths they will go, the pain they will endure, the sacrifices they will make to achieve the goal.

What's also extremely important is consistently driving home the stakes involved with unapologetic conviction. The messaging is a critical factor and inspiring confidence and the passion to defend one's territory at all costs is paramount.

Posted by: Circe | May 11 2022 15:06 utc | 306

Russian passports for Kherson region in the offing this year.

"The issuance of Russian passports to those residents of the Kherson Region who will express their willingness will begin by the end of 2022, Kirill Stremousov, a deputy head of the civil-military administration of the Kherson region, said on local television on Wednesday.

"The next step will be to offer issuing Russian passports to all those who want it. I think we will start issuing passports as early as this year," Stremousov said adding that it would not be mandatory for local residents to obtain Russian passports, but optional."

Posted by: Republicofscotland | May 11 2022 15:06 utc | 307

A railway car with ammonium nitrate blew up in Kramatorsk, Ukraine today. Twitterati 🇺🇦 are screaming about chlorine and chemical weapons.

Similar fake claims were made by these same pundits about ammonium nitrate bombs used in Syria. I tweeted a set of two photos that show an exact match between today's ammonium cloud in Ukraine and a fake chlorine cloud in Deraa, Syria in 2015.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | May 11 2022 15:08 utc | 308

@Sushi #266
I believe the far right got only 2% of the vote that put Zelenski into power, so it isn't 5%.
Secondly, as William Gruff notes - the 2% may be the tip of the spear, but the top and upper middle levels of society have to at least cooperate.
However, I disagree with William Gruff that they must be complicit. Why wouldn't a shopkeeper or backwater parliamentarian go along when US and EU money is going thrown in all directions?
There is a big difference between fighting against direct oppression vs. allowing personal gain.
In the Communist Revolution, the prolonged and glaringly obvious incompetence of the Tsarist government was such that the mid-levels were far more for change than status quo - that's how revolutions truly succeed.

Posted by: c1ue | May 11 2022 15:08 utc | 309

From IntelSlava

🇷🇺🇺🇦 On Snake Island, English and American high-ranking officers disappeared during the landing. For their sake, the Ukrainian military fought for two days. But it was not possible to return the officers, or at least their bodies.

According to our source in the General Staff, an American marine lieutenant colonel, as well as an English major from the commando brigade of the marine corps, landed on Snake Island together with Ukrainian fighters.

They coordinated the work of NATO intelligence assets and the Ukrainian landing forces. Both officers landed in the first wave. But then the Russians shot down three helicopters and one landing craft was sunk. The remaining boats withdrew, leaving the first wave of landing on the shore. According to our source, London and Washington demanded that Zelensky make every effort to return their officers.

Despite several attempts to re-land on the island, it was not possible to find out the fate of the English and American marines. It is assumed that they died in battle with the Russians. But so far, as our source says, there is no confirmation of this information. It is possible that both were captured. In turn, the attempt to return their bodies cost the Ukrainian forces several planes and helicopters shot down, as well as several dozen dead marines and special forces.

Posted by: Down South | May 11 2022 15:11 utc | 310

who immigrated to the US from Russia

Confusing how you mix up "emigration" and "Immigration" - hard to know direction of travel !

I think you will find the bulk of Russians ( let's say Jews from Russia) entered USA 1870-1910 - around 2 million. Subsequent waves of immigration into USA are probably far lower. After all Russia is only 19th largest immigrant group - I bet it is insignificant compared to Indians with 2.7 million in USA legally.

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | May 11 2022 15:13 utc | 311

Not only has Putin put his people first, but also reversed the order of command for his regiments, which they, being of a similar mind, will not mind at all. Plus, he marches with his people. Bravo, Putin! Bravo, Russia!

Posted by: juliania | May 11 2022 10:12 utc | 254

Indeed he does wear his heart on his sleeve for his people, but when it comes to the West supplying arms, intel and scheming to kill as many Russian soldiers as possible, doing all to prolong the misery of Ukraine and plotting the destruction of Russia, at this time, I want Putin to be bad to the bone. That's what it will take to change the geopolitical landscape. The Wild, Wild West is over. It's high noon for The Outlaw Empire. The law is for all or no one. Putin is the designate enforcer; so everyone who used the law to advance their own supremacy at the expense of others; suck it up.
There is a time for everything under the sun. Regrettably even war; and being forced out of one’s comfort zone, is a part of the human endeavor.

For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven: a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; a time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

In the midst of it all, and even in war, I believe this: heal, build, love can still happen.

Posted by: Circe | May 11 2022 15:13 utc | 312

Posted by: Petri Krohn | May 11 2022 14:58 utc | 300

I wrote in early 2014, that Russia would be willing to sacrifice 10,000 of her best, if that would save Ukraine

Not sure I follow your logic. "if that would save Ukraine" ????????

Is there logic in these statements ?

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | May 11 2022 15:15 utc | 313

@302 "In the current context that "anti-Moskal sentiment" IS fascism."

Sure it is but socialists can be anti-Moskal too. Hatred of Russians seems to transcend class in Ukraine.

Posted by: dh | May 11 2022 15:16 utc | 314

From today's CBC.ca/news
Meanwhile, the British Defence Ministry said Ukraine was targeting Russian forces on Snake Island in the northwestern Black Sea, in an effort to disrupt Moscow's attempts to expand its influence.

Russia has sought to reinforce its garrison on Snake Island, while "Ukraine has successfully struck Russian air defences and resupply vessels with Bayraktar drones," the ministry said on Twitter. It said Russian resupply vessels had minimum protection after the Russian Navy retreated to Crimea after losing the flagship of its Black Sea fleet.

I don't know I am supposed to laugh or cry. rt.com had an informative article.

Ukraine’s ‘senseless PR action’ at Snake Island led to heavy losses – Russia
Kiev lost 30 drones, 14 aircraft and 3 ships in a ‘senseless PR action’ to retake island, the Russian military says

Posted by: Calgary Guy | May 11 2022 15:18 utc | 315

"We are building up this army with our allies since 8 years!"
"Its not only about weapons, its about C2, maneuvers, training..."

This is the original link to John Kirbys interview on fox news, which is with german subtitles here at #298
https://youtu.be/jhcA8M2QBcM

Posted by: njet | May 11 2022 15:20 utc | 316

dh @311: "Hatred of Russians seems to transcend class in Ukraine."

As hatred of Jews transcended class in Nazi Germany. Years of vilification from authoritative-sounding voices broadcast from the tallest soapboxes in society has that effect. That hatred is not organic. It is a manufactured thing, like desire for a particular logo on one's sneakers or t-shirt.

Posted by: William Gruff | May 11 2022 15:25 utc | 317

Interesting tweet from Elon

Elon Musk
@elonmusk
·
14h
Starlink has resisted Russian cyberwar jamming & hacking attempts so far, but they’re ramping up their efforts

If true (not saying it is) then there must be more to Starlink than simply providing cheap, fast internet to the masses if it can resist Russian cyberwar jamming. It must have a military application too.

Posted by: Down South | May 11 2022 15:30 utc | 318

WG @ 302 ended with;"Rather, fascism is defined by its function in serving big business, not by any ideology or beliefs held by fascist."

Yep, seems like Fascism always serves as the muscle behind big business..

Posted by: vetinLA | May 11 2022 15:33 utc | 319

William Gruff | May 11 2022 15:25 utc | 314

Another example is the U.S. around WW I, when they changed street names like Schiller St. to something non-German, they killed German-breed dogs en masse, etc. There is a book about with lots of pictures, but I can't remember the title. German actually used to be the most popular foreign language to learn in the U.S.

Posted by: hate campaigns | May 11 2022 15:37 utc | 320

@Down South | May 11 2022 15:30 utc | 315

If true (not saying it is) then there must be more to Starlink than simply providing cheap, fast internet to the masses if it can resist Russian cyberwar jamming. It must have a military application too.
It has been my thinking for a while that this had a military purpose. It is just too ridiculous to believe this was to give internet to people in poor countries. So the talk of jamming isn't a first hint, it is a confirmation IMNSHO.

Posted by: Norwegian | May 11 2022 15:45 utc | 321

re. 33, wait, no 40 B$ dollars in "aid" "to Ukraine"
I have not read the specifics, but generally speaking, a few points:
1) When the US government speaks, it is lying - is a good starting point for any analysis.
2) When the US government provides aid, it means they will hand (virtual) pallets of money to some company(ies) (with % to middlemen and members of government) to produce and deliver some stuff which does not necessarily serve any purpose nor even truly functional.
3) Kind of humorously, the US has resurected an old accounting trick so to balance the books so that they will be leasing equipment to Migraine - akin to leasing very durable condoms.
4) The US government does not in reality possess any money, that is old school thinking, nor do they even have the ability to print any money (of course "printing" is not meant literally). Any conceivable amount of money is simply conjured into being as a ledger entry, by our friends at the private bank cartel know as the Federal Reserve (which no is not Federal and does not on balance have anything "in reserve"). Nor does the US government have any "debt" - as traditionally, debt would be something that you have intent and means to repay. So there is lots more where that came from, for what its worth.

How could this be? It does not make any sense.
Mr Hudson tries to explain.
My take is the world sends us its wealth so that we can continue to enslave them. It doesnt work for either of the pricipals, but the middlemen make out rather well.

Like in this situation, the piano man gets richer, while Ukraine burns.

Posted by: jared | May 11 2022 15:54 utc | 322

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 11 2022 4:25 utc | 211

"
It started with the vast accumulation of wealth in Venice that in the 1600's Managed its risk by franchising to London, Amsterdam and Madrid. It has gotten stronger and more vile as the decades roll on.
"
No expert here, but would look into the so-called 'Dark Ages' before the 1600s during which the post-Roman-Empire Catholic Church in the Vatican ruled over most European Kings by putting God's Popes over various Monarchs. I believe they are 'dark' because their story was deliberately suppressed but for sure they had their fingers in pretty much all major financial and military flows for many centuries.

Probably wherever there are large concentrations of power - usually Empires and suchlike - there are competing networks involved, some based in money, others in military organization, others in politics or faith or information or populist support and so forth. Then you have international trade networks which exist extra-judicially (i.e. not beholden to only one king or country but two or more for such streams to keep flowing) who in turn start negotiating with various monarchs as virtual nations in their own right doing deals including funding the king's army to acquire new territory and resultant materials for trade. And so forth. Mandalas within mandalas ad infinitum.

In any case, this sort of thing goes back a long way, most likely where there is any sort of accumulated wealth or long-term civilization with institutional continuity of sorts, including bloodlines, land ownership, national treasuries and so forth.

Ultimately probably some combination of established family and other associations with long-term accumulated influence and wealth on the one hand but also on the other hand with a general mentality continuously recruiting new members, so as much tendencies as mapped-out plans.

Posted by: Scorpion | May 11 2022 15:55 utc | 323

Down South | May 11 2022 15:30 utc

Elon Musk @elonmusk · 14h Starlink has resisted Russian cyberwar jamming & hacking attempts so far, but they’re ramping up their efforts

If true (not saying it is) then there must be more to Starlink than simply providing cheap, fast internet to the masses if it can resist Russian cyberwar jamming. It must have a military application too.

We recently discovered that China has made a formal protest to the UN about Starlink satellites maneuvering to approach the Chinese Space Station, so close that the station took evasive action. I believe there were two incidents and I'm sure China provided radar or other tracking data to back up this allegation of violation of UN rules regarding conduct in space.

Perhaps another barfly might have more detailed information.

Posted by: jonku | May 11 2022 16:04 utc | 324

Since b posted something new and this thread will be abandoned soon: thanks to everyone who replied to my post @47!

I can't write up a whole anser quickly but bless you and all the barflies and have a nice day!

Posted by: pachinko | May 11 2022 16:06 utc | 325

The Snake Island stunt was apparently even dumber than the MoD thought.From Intel Slava Z:

On Snake Island, English and American high-ranking officers disappeared during the landing. For their sake, the Ukrainian military fought for two days. But it was not possible to return the officers, or at least their bodies. According to our source in the General Staff, an American marine lieutenant colonel, as well as an English major from the commando brigade of the marine corps, landed on Snake Island together with Ukrainian fighters.

They coordinated the work of NATO intelligence assets and the Ukrainian landing forces. Both officers landed in the first wave. But then the Russians shot down three helicopters and one landing craft was sunk. The remaining boats withdrew, leaving the first wave of landing on the shore. According to our source, London and Washington demanded that Zelensky make every effort to return their officers. Despite several attempts to re-land on the island, it was not possible to find out the fate of the English and American marines. It is assumed that they died in battle with the Russians. But so far, as our source says, there is no confirmation of this information. It is possible that both were captured. In turn, the attempt to return their bodies cost the Ukrainian forces several planes and helicopters shot down, as well as several dozen dead marines and special forces

https://t.me/intelslava/28565

Posted by: TomD | May 11 2022 16:09 utc | 326

Grieved #226

Great post. I believe there was at least one deep flaw in the 60's movement namely an arrogant disdain for their ancestors both immediate (parents) and more distant. This meant that no matter what they were striving for they were also breaking the country apart. The young generation enjoyed an incredible sense of far-flung community mainly established just through dress alone; but the sense of 'we' shared also included alienation from all those not included. A pity.

Indeed, once the dust settled during the indulgent 70's, a huge sea-change had taken place and the country has never since had a cohesive sense of collective 'we.'

Unfortunately, that is one of the main legacies of that generation. Contemporary 'progressivism' shares this trait: an open disdain for our forebears who are often described as little better than criminals. Leaving aside any arguments about whether such judgements are justified, the result is to disconnect the present from the past making any sort of cohesive development including all generations and national character, or soul if you prefer, impossible.

What is very different about how Russia is behaving is that despite significant restructuring and reform the past few decades they have done a seemingly excellent job of defining and promoting a multi-generational collective 'we' so that both young, orthodox fundamentalists, loyal Stalinists, communists and more can all feet part of this grand, deep-rooted Russian 'we.'

For those of us who live in the self-demonizing West this is both a wondrous, as well as somewhat unbelievable, thing to witness.

Posted by: Scorpion | May 11 2022 16:14 utc | 327


Posted by: uncle tungsten | May 11 2022 9:27 utc | 248

"I guess one of the westies main objectives is to see what tactics and weapons and defence systems the Russians can really roll out. A sort of live fire expose of the Russian arms bazaar."

No doubt. And for that reason I very much doubt that Russia has been using her best stuff or using her fanciest tactics.

Meanwhile, a good comment by Rasputin on the Saker today under this article: http://thesaker.is/we-will-win/ . He argues there is an international conspiracy by the oligarchical elites with all the usual suspects making this current operation a type of phony war. I confess to still being open to this explanation. Many things don't add up. (But what else is new?)

Posted by: Scorpion | May 11 2022 16:20 utc | 328

The Ukrainian army has to really be in a desperate position, because here is another MSM piece with a grim outlook on its situation. Cut by small cut, the narrative is unraveling;

https://parismatch.be/actualites/societe/559273/au-coeur-de-la-guerre-lukraine-jette-toutes-ses-forces-dans-la-bataille-a-lest

Of particular interest (translation is mine) :


Another soldier swears, looking at the smoke floating upon the Donbass, in this zone where Russian advance is slow, methodical, and seems unstoppable.

If the Russians took Bilogorivka, they could launch an assault on Kramatorsk, the administrative capital of eastern Ukraine. In what seems more and more like a desperate bid to hold the front line, the Ukrainian army sent numerous reinforcements there. A few kilometers east of here, the besieged cities of Lyssytchansk and Severodonetsk can fall at any moment.

"We're getting ready to get back there" explains a fighter, nom de guerre "Leto". "What can we do ? An order is an order, but we have no cover, no cannons, no mortars. I don't know how our unit will fight"

Russia's military and numerical superiority allow for durable gains

Field medics estimate the Ukrainian body count to be far higher than during the 2014 war. "If you look at the stats, it's scary...Many are dying. We can't do anything to help many of these guys, and they die. But it's war, we know that"


Posted by: Vissarionovich | May 11 2022 16:27 utc | 329

@Down South #318
Much as you can use wifi servers to triangulate, so too can you use Starlink satellites to triangulate. This matters when Russian forces are deliberately jamming GPS signals.

Posted by: c1ue | May 11 2022 16:34 utc | 330

William Gruff :

"The entire breadth of the Ukraine's middle class (the so-called "Professional-Managerial Class" - PMC) are backing the fascists. Sure, the CIA and US State Department organized the whole thing and greased the palms of key players, but the coup and resulting fascist government required the support of the Ukraine's middle class, even if they don't dirty their hands in the actual commission of the ultraviolence."

Every european at the bar should replace the word "ukraine" by its own countryname and see how it sounds right now.

Posted by: malamatias | May 11 2022 16:37 utc | 331

Sushi, various posts

When R Cobb says 5% he can name them. No matter how many people use the technique or how long it is shown to work no one believes that mass biography exists or that humans can do all the reading. Cobb did it all over France. He could pick up a text in handwriting on moldy paper in 18th century vernacular Walloon or Provençal or Breton and read it like most of us read the newspaper.

He was not able to self finance a life in a scriptorium forever and made accommodations with British academia. Biggest problem was always readers as yourself who are unable to cope with anything heterodox. For a while he was publishing in Walloon in Walloon language agricultural journals.

I used to work with a researcher who had everyone in the Chicago City Directory for 1870s through 1890s and he knew a lot about all of them. All. Off the top of his head. Other researchers used him a lot. But respect? Belief? Fat chance. People want the familiar. That historian went mad and starved.

From the prejudices you express you will never know much. Workers are way smarter than you think. They are not zombies. They get the job done in spite of the capitalist and the manager. Who contribute next to nothing.

Posted by: Oldhippie | May 11 2022 17:39 utc | 332

"I know I'll discover another aspect of the Outlaw US Empire's history that's darker than this because that's the way its progressed during my decades of research."

Posted by: karlof1 | May 11 2022 0:39 utc | 158
___

That doesn’t seem possible. The US regime is the MOAM, Mother of all Mafias, subsuming even the Sicilian mob, which by comparison,now resembles more of an honor-bound family charity. There are simply no limits to US criminality: deceit, treachery, robbery, bribery, blackmail, torture, assassination, and genocide (industrial-scale mass-murder), no limits at all. It is arguably the purist form of evil on the planet, perhaps ever, yet somehow that seems like sugar-coating it.

Posted by: Doug Hillman | May 11 2022 17:52 utc | 333

@IronForge(161):
Nice hints but it's not necessary in the most cases. The block(censoring) is mostly done by DNS(domain name service). You will need a non censored DNS.
Search with: uncensored dns server (avoid google, cloudflare DNS IMHO)
If you use a router and DHCP(dynamic host configuration protocol aka getting IP address automaticly)change the DNS IP(resolver IP) in the router. If not change the resolver IP) in your internet device directly.
You will find the instruction for your device easily.

Posted by: Wolle | May 11 2022 17:55 utc | 334

Posted by: karlof1 | May 11 2022 0:39 utc | 158

[...]

"I've had the same experience. As I like to tell people, "you have no idea how corrupt the US government is." It's almost to the point where the idea of "lizard aliens" being behind it all isn't that implausible." :-)

Posted by: CharlesLutherThanos | May 11 2022 0:45 utc | 164
___

Yes! It's that difficult to fathom the abyss of such evil. Try as one might, it's nigh impossible to understand humanity's true enemy by "walking in their shoes" as gurus advise; there's no tangible origin of reference. Their shoes just won't fit because they're designed for reptiles!

Posted by: Doug Hillman | May 11 2022 18:15 utc | 335

"total war carrying a cross and wrapped in a flag

sln2002 | May 11 2022 2:11 utc | 189
____

Caity Johnstone (2917) updated Sinclair's(?) quote about fascism coming to America "wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."

https://caityjohnstone.medium.com/fascism-came-to-america-wrapped-in-a-rainbow-flag-and-wearing-a-pussyhat-902118e62668

"So while Trump leads his American flag-wrapped, cross-carrying supporters into consenting to more war, more domestic surveillance, more militarization of the police force, and more soul-crushing, world-killing neoliberal economic policy, the goons of the Democratic establishment are leading their rainbow flag-wrapped, pussyhat wearing base into consenting to the exact same thing. The noose gets ever tighter, the censorship gets more and more severe, the spectrum of acceptable debate gets smaller and smaller, the rule of the oligarchs grows ever more totalitarian, and neither the flag-wrapped cross carriers nor the rainbow flag-wrapped pussyhat wearers do anything about it. This was intended."

Posted by: Doug Hillman | May 11 2022 18:59 utc | 336

(...) Marxist labour power is an undifferentiated commodity.

Posted by: Sushi | May 11 2022 12:16 utc

No. Do read chapters thirteen to sixteen of Isaak I. Rubin’s essay, Marx’s Labor Theory of Value, the second of the Essays on Marx’s Theory of Value.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/rubin/value/index.htm

(Usually I don't care what Marxists say, you understand Marx by reading Marx.)

OT but not my fault, SUSHI STARTED IT!

Posted by: Leuk | May 11 2022 19:07 utc | 337

@ Petri Krohn | May 11 2022 15:08 utc | 308

thanks petri.. i value your input and posts..

Posted by: james | May 11 2022 20:20 utc | 338

Sushi | May 11 2022 12:16 utc | 269
___

Thanks for your penetrating and understandable insights on Marxism. Related is Ben Norton's interview with Michael Hudson, already linked by others --- a must watch IMO.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2045&v=qlUSqQ8U8T8&feature=emb_logo

Much of rhe interview discusses MH's just published a new book: "The Destiny of Civilization: Finance Capitalism, Industrial Capitalism or Socialism."

When you write about the levers of revolution: "...it is stunning to contemplate such massive effects from such a small group." you may well be referring to the commentariat at the MOA bar and fraternal pubs, cantinas, and bierhäuser. I too recall reading elsewhere that revolutionary change requires only an enlightened, motivated minority, of somewhere around 8%. So the pervasive, universal deceit we all around us is likely much less powerful and invincible than we may perceive it to be.


Posted by: Doug Hillman | May 11 2022 21:30 utc | 339

Posted by: Doug Hillman | May 11 2022 21:30 utc | 339

Doug - Up-thread Old hippie declares I exhibit prejudice and favour the management class. I have enjoyed professors who devoted a lifetime to the study of Marx. I think there are better pursuits: Women, Wittgenstein, Buddhism, and China. So beware of my interpretation of Marx. The Marxist cabal is the equal of the medievalists arguing over the number of angels that can fit on the head of a pin.

Your comment: "pervasive, universal deceit we (see) all around us is likely much less powerful and invincible than we may perceive it to be" is both accurate and apropos. I suspect your sentiment is increasingly shared by the population outside of MoA - there are reports of young people not accepting the media narrative on Ukraine. What happens when the veil of deceit is finally torn away is an interesting question.

Cheers!

Posted by: Sushi | May 11 2022 23:47 utc | 340

Major escalation, Finland joining Nato!

Finland’s president and PM make statement on NATO
Russia’s northern neighbor will seek membership in the US-led military bloc
https://www.rt.com/news/555342-finland-nato-membership-bid/

So for those that do not know Finland is right on the long northern border with Russia!

Allegedly also Sweden will join tommorow or during the weekend!

Fellow Nordic country Sweden is also a potential applicant, but there is some disagreement in the government on whether it should seek NATO membership. The country has a tradition of non-alignment that dates back to the Napoleonic Wars. Opinion polls show that roughly half of Swedes currently favor joining NATO.

Is this where World war 3 will start?

Posted by: Zanon | May 12 2022 7:23 utc | 341

Major escalation ahead of us, Finland joining Nato, Sweden expected to announce same bid tommorow or during the weekend!

Finland’s president and PM make statement on NATO Russia’s northern neighbor will seek membership in the US-led military bloc
Fellow Nordic country Sweden is also a potential applicant, but there is some disagreement in the government on whether it should seek NATO membership. The country has a tradition of non-alignment that dates back to the Napoleonic Wars. Opinion polls show that roughly half of Swedes currently favor joining NATO.
@RT

Is this in northern europe WW3 will start?

Posted by: Zanon | May 12 2022 7:34 utc | 342

Adding to my comment above, whatever company Moonofalabama use, they have blocked direct links to RT! I tried to post a link but the comment did not show up.

Posted by: Zanon | May 12 2022 7:36 utc | 343

Re: Posted by: Zanon | May 12 2022 7:34 utc | 342

Russia has promised a "Military & Technical" response to Finland joining NATO.

Isn't that the same response Russia gave to Ukraine? And look where we are now?

My bet is we will soon see a small Russian expeditionary force occupy some small part of Finland to BLOCK Finnish accession to NATO.

The occupation will be made with the demand made by Russia for urgent negotiations.

Looking at a map - I have a suggested area around Parikkala and Jarvenpaa and other towns in Southern Finland - not far from St. Petersburg that Russia could sent troops into to occupy.

This area is surrounded on 3 sides by water and the other side by the Russian border.

What do folks think?

Posted by: Julian | May 13 2022 12:33 utc | 344

Forcing NATO upon any country that folds their hand is the current day equivalent of George Dubya Cheney Bush's coalition of the willing.

Don't forget Costa Rica!

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | May 13 2022 14:28 utc | 345

RE: Finland and Sweden

US Neocon ziostrategy appears to be to make RU play Whack-a-Mole.

to spread them thin.

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | May 13 2022 14:31 utc | 346

Posted by: Doug Hillman | May 11 2022 18:59 utc | 336

Caity Johnstone (2917) updated Sinclair's(?) quote about fascism coming to America "wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."

Fascism has come to Europe wrapped in a blue and yellow rag.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | May 13 2022 14:46 utc | 347

@327 Scorpion | May 11 2022 16:14 utc

I believe there was at least one deep flaw in the 60's movement namely an arrogant disdain for their ancestors both immediate (parents) and more distant. This meant that no matter what they were striving for they were also breaking the country apart. The young generation enjoyed an incredible sense of far-flung community mainly established just through dress alone; but the sense of 'we' shared also included alienation from all those not included. A pity.

Indeed, once the dust settled during the indulgent 70's, a huge sea-change had taken place and the country has never since had a cohesive sense of collective 'we.'

Thank you. I don't know if anyone is reading this thread but I wanted to add for the record how much I agree with your observation. I know personally that sense of the elder generation being the enemy and I've only in latter years come to see the continuity between all generations. And yes, indeed, Russia is a wonderful example of how this should be done.

I'm still digesting your theme...looking for the ways in which it might turn out not to be "a pity" - if indeed there is a way. It may always have to remain an episode of alienation - unfortunate, collateral damage, perhaps even from friendly fire.

I incline to thinking that, society having been split from its apparent consensus into individualism, the task remains to come back together into consensus again, still in the future, and somewhat unknown yet...

Anyway, one has to enter to the record, and so I added this here. Maybe this discussion will arise again in another thread. If so, I would enjoy knowing your thoughts more.

Posted by: Grieved | May 14 2022 4:54 utc | 348

I am ashamed to admit that I have only recently discovered this terrific site. MoonofAlabama is wonderful but can someone clue me in on how to get a daily feed? The link and main page process does not seem to work. OK, so I am not doing something correctly but appreciate help in getting this set up as it should be. Much appreciated.

Posted by: Darrell Freeman | May 17 2022 1:13 utc | 349

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